Star Wars: No More

[The Succubus]

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/01/18/george_lucas_calls_quits_on_blockbuster_career/

Well, I don't know about you but I have a large number of diametrically opposite feelings about this. The article highlights many points about how Lucas pretty much detests his fans, which, being a fan, I can empathise with to a limited extent. But in a nutshell, my thoughts can be summed up thusly:

I will always be eternally grateful to the man that gave me A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi when I was growing up. I won't miss the man he became.

[tensai_oni]

Episodes 4 to 6 became the classics they are not because of Lucas. It's thanks to the producer and legions of editors who made his proposed trainwreck of a script into something workable. It helps that his ego and fame were small enough at the time that execs still had some kind of a leash on him. Not to mention he wasn't even the director of eps 5 and 6.

EDIT:

“Why would I make any more, when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?”

It seems even Lucas himself is aware of how many people hate him. But he should learn not to take criticism personally.

[Tiki Snakes]

What's that phrase that the cool kids all use these days?
"And nothing of value was lost."

Though I hope Red Tails does well, it kind of deserves to at least.

[The Glyphstone]

Episodes 4 to 6 became the classics they are not because of Lucas. It's thanks to the producer and legions of editors who made his proposed trainwreck of a script into something workable. It helps that his ego and fame were small enough at the time that execs still had some kind of a leash on him. Not to mention he wasn't even the director of eps 5 and 6.

EDIT:


It seems even Lucas himself is aware of how many people hate him. But he should learn not to take criticism personally.

That aside, you can't deny Lucas credit entirely. While the original trilogy was great because of sane people to temper him, without George there wouldn't have been Star Wars to begin with, great or awful, at all.

[Dr.Epic]

Meh. I'm not too terribly disappointed. What was his last good film?

[Eakin]

It seems even Lucas himself is aware of how many people hate him. But he should learn not to take criticism personally.

I imagine it's tough to have a giant loyal fan base for 20 years, then have all of them turn on you and spend a decade using your name as a synonym for failure and creative bankruptcy I imagine it's tough not to take it a little bit personally after a while. This isn't just a director flipping out over a couple bad reviews of his films.

Still, he should realize that he could have gone back to indie/art house film any time he wanted to. It's not like anyone held a gun to his head and demanded he make more Star Wars movies to the exclusion of everything else.

I also hope Red Tails does well, I'm looking forward to seeing that.

[DiscipleofBob]

While it's true that George Lucas is either a hypocrite or drastically changed his opinion over the years (http://www.cracked.com/funny-2585-george-lucas/), George Lucas still gets too much credit (http://www.cracked.com/article_19576_6-pop-culture-visionaries-who-get-too-much-credit.html). He pretty much had nothing to do with Star Wars ever succeeding and pretty much every decision he's made regarding it, from the prequel movies to pretty much saying the entire expanded universe doesn't count. Not to mention most of the original trilogy was made up on the fly (http://www.cracked.com/article_19043_6-classic-series-you-didnt-know-were-made-up-fly.html).

[Maxios]

...George Lucas came UP with the movies. He directed the first one, he wrote the first one. He wrote the book of the fourth movie (which is really good, by the way). He deserves some credit.

[DiscipleofBob]

...George Lucas came UP with the movies. He directed the first one, he wrote the first one. He wrote the book of the fourth movie (which is really good, by the way). He deserves some credit.

No, he didn't. His original script was a Flash Gordon movie, but he couldn't get ahold of the franchises. His first script had to be heavily edited or else we'd get things like a racial stereotype for C-3PO. He didn't even do all of the director's job for the first movie, like coaching the actor. The second and third movies were written by other people. The only movies he was actually responsible for were the prequels, and that is nothing to be proud of.

[Philistine]

Last good movie? Probably Last Crusade.

And as much as I agree that Lucas deserves credit for the vision that ultimately became Star Wars, the sad fact is that he's almost comically lacking in the talents, skills, and abilities required to turn that vision into a movie (or a series of movies). "Comical" because Lucas thinks he's a really really good writer, director, and producer; "almost" because the way he's misunderstood the nature and causes of his early success has apparently caused him to shut out anyone who might be able and willing to confront him with the reality that he reall really isn't. Looked at that way, his story reads rather like a tragedy.

As for the news in the OP - it's about time, I'd say. Much as I love the setting, and have done ever since I first saw ANH as a kid in 1977, dude needs to stop trying to milk that one good idea he had 35 years ago.

[TheThan]

I love Star Wars; I’ve loved it since I was a little kid. But I was disappointed with how poor the prequel trilogy turned out, I was frustrated with how he kept changing and tweaking his films over the years. Cleaning up the films and remastering them digitally was all he really needed to do. Adding in scenes and editing existing scenes (Greedo shooting first), really do change the feeling of the films.

I feel this is a series that shouldn’t have been changed as much as it had. I agree this is sort of a tragic story. But at the same time, I would rather Lucas step away from Star Wars than continue to make unnecessary changes and tweaks to his films. If he wishes to continue making films, individual ones or other series of films, that’s great, I’d be interested in seeing what else Lucas is capable of outside of star wars and Indiana Jones. So with that said, I’m actually kind of glad to see that he’s stepping away from star wars.

[Weezer]

I love Star Wars; I’ve loved it since I was a little kid. But I was disappointed with how poor the prequel trilogy turned out, I was frustrated with how he kept changing and tweaking his films over the years. Cleaning up the films and remastering them digitally was all he really needed to do. Adding in scenes and editing existing scenes (Greedo shooting first), really do change the feeling of the films.

I feel this is a series that shouldn’t have been changed as much as it had. I agree this is sort of a tragic story. But at the same time, I would rather Lucas step away from Star Wars than continue to make unnecessary changes and tweaks to his films. If he wishes to continue making films, individual ones or other series of films, that’s great, I’d be interested in seeing what else Lucas is capable of outside of star wars and Indiana Jones. So with that said, I’m actually kind of glad to see that he’s stepping away from star wars.

I agree that he needs to do something not in those franchises. It seems he has only written 2 major things not related to either star wars or Indiana Jones, THX 1138 Willow and American Grafitti, the first of which was both his first movie and rather bad, the second is ,well, Willow and the last is an unknown to me. I'm curious to see if he has the ability to write anything good, besides the two good ideas of his that really caught on.

[Fiery Diamond]

I agree that he needs to do something not in those franchises. It seems he has only written 2 major things not related to either star wars or Indiana Jones, THX 1138 Willow and American Grafitti, the first of which was both his first movie and rather bad, the second is ,well, Willow and the last is an unknown to me. I'm curious to see if he has the ability to write anything good, besides the two good ideas of his that really caught on.

Willow was an okay movie. Not super good, but okay.

"My own finger."
"That would have been the correct choice."

[Ravens_cry]

Even Star Wars and Indiana Jones were basically technology upgrades of the old serials he and others liked as a kid, but which now are probably remembered by most as well as the gay (eighteen) nineties.

[Weezer]

Even Star Wars and Indiana Jones were basically technology upgrades of the old serials he and others liked as a kid, but which now are probably remembered by most as well as the gay (eighteen) nineties.

That might explain why I like them so much, I'm a fan of the really old school serialized stuff. Things like the Lensman series by Doc Smith and Barsoom by Burroughs are excellent stuff.

[Lord Raziere]

Meh. I'll just continue being the only guy in the world who likes all six episodes...

[Brumski]

I don't get the title "Star Wars: No More" when all he's saying is he himself personally is done directing big movies. Was anyone really expecting anymore Star Wars movies? I thought it might be something awesome like he was no longer allowing anyone to create anything under the Star Wars license, no more cartoons, books, action figures...that would be hilarious.

And the Expanded Universe is silly, but any story you try to keep going for that long gets silly, like soap operas and superhero comic books.

[TheThan]

That might explain why I like them so much, I'm a fan of the really old school serialized stuff. Things like the Lensman series by Doc Smith and Barsoom by Burroughs are excellent stuff.

What you’re describing is what I group as “pulp adventure”.
I’m a huge fan of the genre myself, as well as classic 40s-50s sci-fi.

[Traab]

Willow was an okay movie. Not super good, but okay.

"My own finger."
"That would have been the correct choice."

I liked that movie, rather a lot. Yes it was cheesy, and the evil queen was way too over the top, as were a few other scenes, but I genuinely liked it.

[pendell]

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/01/18/george_lucas_calls_quits_on_blockbuster_career/

I will always be eternally grateful to the man that gave me A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi when I was growing up. I won't miss the man he became.

Well spoken.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[thubby]

this might have been a tragedy before episode 1

[Ravens_cry]

That might explain why I like them so much, I'm a fan of the really old school serialized stuff. Things like the Lensman series by Doc Smith and Barsoom by Burroughs are excellent stuff.
I have a few of the first John Carter of Mars books as well as The Skylark of Space and they . . .they are hard reading, but they do have a certain earnestness about them that has a definite appeal.
Yes, two fisted superscience and all.

[horngeek]

Meh. I'll just continue being the only guy in the world who likes all six episodes...

You're not alone. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

The novelizations (especially Revenge of the Sith) allow me to forgive some of the more dubious moments.

So in general I think the prequels existing isn't a bad thing.

[Story Time]

...not that this post will matter very long from now...

But every time I hear or read, "George Lucas edited [film]," I feel that the eternal and immortal Spirit of Copyright has been besmirched by a fool who chose not to respect it. I've known for a while that he wasn't the single force behind Star Wars and from that I gather that George owes big apologies to the toes he's stepped on by altering other people's good ideas.

I won't say that George has no talent. That wouldn't be accurate. I just think that as an artist his sense of visual effects and visual arts is more potent than whatever plot ideas that he created.


Also, I'd like to take a second to remind all the people in this thread who've figuratively bashed on George that the position he occupies, one of fame and industry, is a position that many people aspire to achieve. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to cast our insults. We wouldn't want to be so insulted if we were in his position now would we?

[factotum]

this might have been a tragedy before episode 1

No, I think it's more a tragedy it DIDN'T happen before Episode 1. Even if we give George Lucas all credit for the first three movies (which he doesn't really deserve, as noted already), he'd clearly forgotten everything that made them good by the time he came to do the prequels.

[TheArsenal]

No, I think it's more a tragedy it DIDN'T happen before Episode 1

I agree with this more. People who where never credited or even remembered before would be the ones with the riens today.

HE did create one thing though: "I am your father" is his creation.

[legomaster00156]

I will go ahead and commit treason by saying that I enjoyed the prequel trilogy. *hides behind a +5 Tower Shield*

[VanBuren]

I don't blame him at all. I'm not thinking of anyone on this forum when I say this, but sometimes the worst things about a franchise is its fandom. Star Wars is no exception.

[Jimorian]

...George Lucas came UP with the movies. He directed the first one, he wrote the first one. He wrote the book of the fourth movie (which is really good, by the way). He deserves some credit.

Alan Dean Foster wrote the book for what would become Star Wars IV: A New Hope. Foster also wrote the book credited to Gene Roddenberry for Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

[Soras Teva Gee]

What's that phrase that the cool kids all use these days?
"And nothing of value was lost."

Though I hope Red Tails does well, it kind of deserves to at least.

You read my mind. My love of Star Wars died entirely when I realized suddenly that The Phantom Menace was probably the most tolerable prequel.

I can only hope Red Tails escaped the man's writing and will be a tolerable movie.

[Whiffet]

Star Trek IV: A New Hope.

You may want to fix that before fanatics notice it and swarm you. :smalltongue:

[Tiki Snakes]

I've been thinking about this since my earlier post.
But, really, the furore over the prequels is old news. Sure, there's more outcry about his most recent hack-job re-release but I can't help but wonder if the straw that broke the camels back wasn't so much that people are vocal about their dislike for his changes, but that they are vocal about his changes and all the new stuff he did for Star Wars and yet fans largely embraced the clone troopers stuff.

It feels possible.

[Jerthanis]

Sure, it's your movie and you have the right to do it the way you want it to be, but if you don't want people to tell you how godawful it is when it's done, listen when people tell you what needs to change BEFORE it's done.

It's an irony that the guy who wanted to rebel against the way movies were made ended up proving that following the writer/director's vision without input from studio execs can make your movie terrible.

[Raddish]

I never have decided which trilogy I like more. I haven't seen anything Star wars that I haven't liked though.

On another hand I don't really care if he doesn't make any more although I can see why he feels how he does, from my view the die-hard star wars fanbase seems to be too difficult to please...

[Leecros]

from my view the die-hard star wars fanbase seems to be too difficult to please...

I think that the Prequels were doomed to fail as soon as it was announced they were going to be made. There was no way it could have lived up to the hype.


There were definitely errors made...
~Midichlorians
~That pod race thing....I fell asleep during it
~Anakin & Padme had some of the worst acting jobs i've seen in a film as large as Star Wars.
~There was something rather abrupt about Anakin's fall, Yes there was several actions throughout the film which were increasingly *ahem* 'dark side', but there wasn't really anything in between.

However, i feel that even if those were fixed...there would always be problems that people would pick up on that would have labeled such an over-hyped film a "Disaster"



At the end of the day, he was a man whom was forced out of the job he enjoyed, by the fans he created and regardless of how you've felt about his recent works...That is quite the shame.

[Soras Teva Gee]

There were definitely errors made...


You forgot terrible terrible dialogue absolutely coating even dramatic scenes with Narm.

[TheCountAlucard]

I can only hope Red Tails escaped the man's writing and will be a tolerable movie.George Lucas himself described it as, "Like Tyler Perry, but without the jokes."

My expectations are lower than dirt.

[Dumbledore lives]

This is potentially the best thing that could happen for the Star Wars franchise. At least right now Lucas stepping down is a good thing, and I'll be interested to see what he works on next, because well, it couldn't be worse than the 3-D re-releases of Star Wars, which I will undoubtedly see.

[Coidzor]

Sounds like a good thing as long as him leaving doesn't mean that everything gets throttled to death. Certainly seems like some of his decisions were done out of a sense of spite now. I'd thought before that he'd been completely insulated from fan opinion by sycophants and yes-men that had allowed him to continue in a deluded fantasy where he was absolute tyrant and that was a good thing.

That he was aware that his actions and decisions were not solid gold AND still went out of his way to do things to antagonize the fanbase just makes me think that he has moral failings in addition to having made bad creative decisions and not handled the power he had attained well.

[Eakin]

This is potentially the best thing that could happen for the Star Wars franchise.
Isn't it time for the franchise to just end? There's always going to be the EU stuff for those that go for that kind of thing


it couldn't be worse than the 3-D re-releases of Star Wars, which I will undoubtedly see.
I cannot fathom this attitude. Bitch and moan about something, then fork over money to the people that made it. If you don't like it vote with your wallet, anything else is hypocrisy.

[Coidzor]

Isn't it time for the franchise to just end? There's always going to be the EU stuff for those that go for that kind of thing

No, because if the Star Wars franchise ends, then the EU ends and all we have left are fanfiction writers. :smalleek:


I cannot fathom this attitude. Bitch and moan about something, then fork over money to the people that made it. If you don't like it vote with your wallet, anything else is hypocrisy.

Unfortunately that means that my dollar vote has been completely and utterly ignored because of the masses of people who don't think The Clone Wars' animation style was a steaming pile, as I haven't given George Lucas a cent since I was disappointed with the Phantom Menace.

[Ravens_cry]

You know, a Howard the Duck movie could be good, if you used Roger Rabbit animation for Howard and other 'cartoony' characters. I've only read a bit of it, but the guy I remember had a delightful cynicism, like someone mixed a film noir private eye with Donald Duck at his most cantankerous, with wonderfully overwrought narration to boot.
Roger Rabbit cel animation, or hell, CGI, would be much better than sticking a some short guy in a simply horrible animatronic suit.

[OracleofWuffing]

But but but... What will I do with my Tricorder collection? Now we'll never know if the Klingons become the honorable race they should become. And the Romulans! For the sake of the children, think of the Romulans!


This is potentially the best thing that could happen for the Star Wars franchise.
Eeeeeh if pessimism has taught me anything, it's that he was just a bulkhead preventing all of the really bad authors from getting their hands on the series. Prepare for the suck! :smalltongue:

[TheCountAlucard]

I cannot fathom this attitude. Bitch and moan about something, then fork over money to the people that made it. If you don't like it vote with your wallet, anything else is hypocrisy.Eh, you can just do what I do - explain to the theater that you want to see the movie, but that you don't want your money going to that picture, and instead put it toward a better movie. :smallamused:

[Tiki Snakes]

Eeeeeh if pessimism has taught me anything, it's that he was just a bulkhead preventing all of the really bad authors from getting their hands on the series. Prepare for the suck! :smalltongue:

I'm not sure when it happened but it seems clear to me that at some point prior to the New Jedi Order thing, Yuuzhan Vong and so on, exactly that already happened.

[Philistine]

About that "bad acting," there are a few things that need to be considered when you look at an actor's performance on-screen. First is writing: there are some lines that nobody can deliver. Quite a lot of them are on display in the Anakin-Padme scenes. Second is casting: if Portman and Christensen were simply unable to generate chemistry together, then one or both of them should have been sacked and replaced (more likely Christensen, as Portman was already in Ep.1). Third is direction: it is the director's job to get the desired performances from the actors. Any time an actor's performance appears clunky, awkward, wooden, and/or stilted on the screen, it is because the director saw it and declared it good. (Conversely, well-written dialog, strong casting, and good direction can make an actor look really, really good, whether or not they actually are.)

I've seen Portman in enough other things, both before and since, that I know she can act - certainly she's better than her performance as Padme Amidala would indicate. Christensen hasn't been in anything else I cared enough to go see, but I've heard he's not terrible - at least, not when working from a halfway-decent script, with a halfway-competent director.

[Ravens_cry]

The decision to have sets that were literally nothing while expecting actors to emote to scenery, and characters, that just weren't there also didn't help.

[Soras Teva Gee]

About that "bad acting," there are a few things that need to be considered when you look at an actor's performance on-screen. First is writing: there are some lines that nobody can deliver.

I've heard that back in the day a lot of the lines ended up ad-libbed or otherwise changed around because everybody involved was all "George people don't talk like this" and won. How much of that is true I have no idea though Harrison Ford is allegedly responsible for "I know" instead of a generic "I love you too" when being frozen in carbonite.

And you can't tell me that Samuel L. Jackson couldn't come up with better lines then he actually got to say.

[Tiki Snakes]

I would pay serious money to watch a Tarantino directed Star Wars film, especially if it featured Mr Jackson in a significant role.

That would be the best thing.

[Triscuitable]

Meh. I'm not too terribly disappointed. What was his last good film?

Star Wars. Before it was A New Hope.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I would pay serious money to watch a Tarantino directed Star Wars film, especially if it featured Mr Jackson in a significant role.

That would be the best thing.

Well I don't know about directing, but anyone with a talent for dialogue involved would have been incalculable.

Think about it, the prequels actually sound pretty good on paper, a lot of the cast has solid ability and tons of geek cred. Samuel L. Jackson and Christopher Lee in the same movie, c'mon how could that be bad! Its entirely in the execution that they become so very disappointing.

[Anarion]

I've heard that back in the day a lot of the lines ended up ad-libbed or otherwise changed around because everybody involved was all "George people don't talk like this" and won. How much of that is true I have no idea though Harrison Ford is allegedly responsible for "I know" instead of a generic "I love you too" when being frozen in carbonite.

And you can't tell me that Samuel L. Jackson couldn't come up with better lines then he actually got to say.

Harrison Ford did "I know." He also ad-libbed the entire conversation when they're rescuing Leia and he talks to the guy on the radio. It's the one where he says "We're fine. We're all fine here, how are you?" then shoots the radio and shouts "Luke, we're gonna have company!"

Also, C-3PO was original cast as a sleazy used-car salesman type of character, but Anthony Daniels decided to play him as a prim butler instead and talked Lucas into having the character that way.

To give Lucas some credit though, Sir Alec Guinness wasn't going to do the role when he found out Obi-Wan Kenobi would die at the end of the first movie and Lucas convinced him to do it because it would be best for the story.

[SaintRidley]

No, because if the Star Wars franchise ends, then the EU ends and all we have left are fanfiction writers. :smalleek:



That's basically what the EU is anyway. Just with the power of a publishing house behind the fanwank.


On topic, all I have to say to the news is it's about time.

[Weezer]

About that "bad acting," there are a few things that need to be considered when you look at an actor's performance on-screen. First is writing: there are some lines that nobody can deliver. Quite a lot of them are on display in the Anakin-Padme scenes. Second is casting: if Portman and Christensen were simply unable to generate chemistry together, then one or both of them should have been sacked and replaced (more likely Christensen, as Portman was already in Ep.1). Third is direction: it is the director's job to get the desired performances from the actors. Any time an actor's performance appears clunky, awkward, wooden, and/or stilted on the screen, it is because the director saw it and declared it good. (Conversely, well-written dialog, strong casting, and good direction can make an actor look really, really good, whether or not they actually are.)

I've seen Portman in enough other things, both before and since, that I know she can act - certainly she's better than her performance as Padme Amidala would indicate. Christensen hasn't been in anything else I cared enough to go see, but I've heard he's not terrible - at least, not when working from a halfway-decent script, with a halfway-competent director.

The same thing goes for both Neeson and McGregor, they are both excellent actors who have displayed very good performances in other movies, however the dialogue they were given and Lucas's directing simply murdered their performance.

[Reverent-One]

That's basically what the EU is anyway. Just with the power of a publishing house behind the fanwank.


And it's still better than a lot of the "official" material. Not bad for fanwank.

[TheCountAlucard]

To give Lucas some credit though, Sir Alec Guinness wasn't going to do the role when he found out Obi-Wan Kenobi would die at the end of the first movie and Lucas convinced him to do it because it would be best for the story.Man, he must've been even more pissed when Obi-Wan died in the middle of the movie. :smalltongue:

[Anarion]

Man, he must've been even more pissed when Obi-Wan died in the middle of the movie. :smalltongue:

Touché, sir, touché. Though I'm sure that his new role as a disembodied voice mollified him a bit.

[Gnoman]

I'll be brutally frank. ANything with an official liscense and a managed continuity is by definition not fanfiction. (Generally, the plot outlines aren't even primarily the work of the author on the cover, though the actual writing and the details are.) Of course, as one of those people who actually likes most of the EU (some of it needs the Broad Strokes treatment) and considers the prequels medoicre at worst, my opinion is automatically invalid for most Star Wars "fans."

As far as Lucas retiring goes, it's not really much more of a big deal than Roddenberry getting fired from Star Trek was.

[turkishproverb]

You know, a Howard the Duck movie could be good, if you used Roger Rabbit animation for Howard and other 'cartoony' characters. I've only read a bit of it, but the guy I remember had a delightful cynicism, like someone mixed a film noir private eye with Donald Duck at his most cantankerous, with wonderfully overwrought narration to boot.
Roger Rabbit cel animation, or hell, CGI, would be much better than sticking a some short guy in a simply horrible animatronic suit.

They would need to fix the writing and directing too. It'd have to be a much harder, darker comedy, and a pretty strait case of nihilistic madness. Closer to the comics, in other words. But you're right it could be good.

[Philistine]

The same thing goes for both Neeson and McGregor, they are both excellent actors who have displayed very good performances in other movies, however the dialogue they were given and Lucas's directing simply murdered their performance.

Oh, absolutely. But bad acting had only been mentioned in the thread in reference to the romance scenes (well, until now :smallcool:), so Christensen and Portman were the only two I mentioned.

It's funny: if you compare the combined credits for the main cast members from the OT and from the PT, well, the PT straight-up had better actors. The acting, OTOH... Well. Dialogue, and direction.

[Ravens_cry]

They would need to fix the writing and directing too. It'd have to be a much harder, darker comedy, and a pretty strait case of nihilistic madness. Closer to the comics, in other words. But you're right it could be good.
That too. The whole film was an example of why some of us want to forget the eighties and/or George Lucas.

[Triscuitable]

That too. The whole film was an example of why some of us want to forget the eighties and/or George Lucas.

Ayup. You see, whenever George Lucas makes a whiny comment like this, I say this:

"WHAT? I'M SORRY! I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER YOUR MASSIVE EGO!

[Whiffet]

Honestly, I just don't care about the PT. There were a lot of things wrong, sure, but to me the best part of the OT was Harrison Ford's performance. They didn't create some horrifically-written backstory for Han Solo in the PT, so I don't feel much rage. In those movies, the only thing that goes beyond simple disappointment is the inclusion of unnecessary characters like C-3PO and Chewbacca. Even then, it's "Okay, why in the world did they do that?" compared to "Eh, this isn't very good."

Now, if we talk about the OT, I'm as mad as anyone else about certain unspeakable changes. :smallmad:

[Anarion]

I read through the whole New York Times article and I think the issue with Lucas is that he somehow managed to equate the feedback from his fans with the feedback from the studios. Maybe it's because his early career was so frustrating, so whenever anyone tells him he's doing something wrong he gets upset.

Regardless of the reason though, there's a huge difference between having a studio executive tell you that your film won't sell for X reasons and having your entire fan-base tell you that you've ruined some of the things they love about your work. If Lucas really equates any negative feedback with compromise of his creative vision, perhaps its for the best that he retires into a life of making small, arty films.

[factotum]

It's funny: if you compare the combined credits for the main cast members from the OT and from the PT, well, the PT straight-up had better actors.

Really? Looking at the main cast from the first prequel, the only main characters who really had great acting chops were Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor. Most of the other big names were in barely long enough to count as a cameo. OK, admittedly the only big-name actor in Episode IV was Peter Cushing, but he was awesome enough to count for two--the scene between him and Leia just before Alderaan is destroyed is still my favourite of any of the movies!

[Dumbledore lives]

I cannot fathom this attitude. Bitch and moan about something, then fork over money to the people that made it. If you don't like it vote with your wallet, anything else is hypocrisy.

It is hypocrisy, but no matter what I will do they will continue with the rest of the films, and I kind of want to see Star Wars in the theaters again, I mean it has been like 7 years, and even if it is awful, at least it'll look pretty.

[Coidzor]

That's basically what the EU is anyway. Just with the power of a publishing house behind the fanwank.


On topic, all I have to say to the news is it's about time.

Yeah, but having at least some people who'll wade through the excrement for you helps slightly.

As opposed to having to wade through the excrement and fetishization of said excrement on one's own.

[turkishproverb]

Really? Looking at the main cast from the first prequel, the only main characters who really had great acting chops were Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor. Most of the other big names were in barely long enough to count as a cameo. OK, admittedly the only big-name actor in Episode IV was Peter Cushing, but he was awesome enough to count for two--the scene between him and Leia just before Alderaan is destroyed is still my favourite of any of the movies!

Sir Alec Guinness was a huge name at the time, thank you. There's a reason he was able to negotiate such a good contract.

And Harrison Ford is a good actor, though he didn't gain his name until later...

[Brother Oni]

Sir Alec Guinness was a huge name at the time, thank you. There's a reason he was able to negotiate such a good contract.

And Harrison Ford is a good actor, though he didn't gain his name until later...

No mention of James Earl Jones?

[The Succubus]

No mention of James Earl Jones?

When I finally engage my masterplan to rule the world, I'm going to have all my announcements made by him.

With regards to good actors in the PT, don't forget Christopher Lee as well. I'd also say Ian McDiarmid as well - when he isn't being forced to play the laughing insane villian, he can do a cold, menacing presence quite well.

[Mercenary Pen]

I'll give Lucas some credit- because he is a halfway decent ideas man for the underlying concepts, but his skills lie in world building more than story telling in my considered opinion.


On the other hand, I'd have to agree with the guys who say that the prequel trilogy could and should have been done better considering the calibre of the actors involved (with one or two exceptions such as Christensen)- so perhaps it would be better if remakes were done sooner rather than later, just so the decent actors didn't die before they got the chance to make their roles into what they should have been.

Now all we need is to get the prequels remade by someone who understands such things as dialogue and we'll have salvaged star wars entirely...

[factotum]

Sir Alec Guinness was a huge name at the time, thank you.

I know this, and I somehow completely forgot he was in the movie, I have no idea how! Still, that just reinforces my point...

[Forum Explorer]

I don't have have a real problem with the prequels. Besides the horrible romance scenes it was enjoyable. It just wasn't nearly as good as the OT but you can see how it could have been better as you watch it.


My problem with Lucas is the constant changes he made to the OT. We loved the OT and it didn't need to be changed. Yet he insisted on editing scenes anyways which angered a lot of fans.

[TheArsenal]

There are ALLOT of problems with the Prequels and now Im 100% sure im the only one here that dislikes the fight scenes fro the prequels.

* ducks*

[Dumbledore lives]

There are ALLOT of problems with the Prequels and now Im 100% sure im the only one here that dislikes the fight scenes fro the prequels.

* ducks*

Plenty of people disliked the fight scenes in the prequels especially the light-saber ones. The originals didn't have flash jumps or acrobatics, because they are unnecessary, hell in the original it really was not about the battle at all, and more about the reasons behind it and the emotional context.

That was really what the prequels were missing, emotional attachment. There is a reason the hero's journey is such a prevalent trope in fiction, because it allows us to connect with the characters with ease, and draws us in because it is the basis for a good story. Without characters you care about the action scenes just don't matter.

[Brother Oni]

There are ALLOT of problems with the Prequels and now Im 100% sure im the only one here that dislikes the fight scenes fro the prequels.

* ducks*

If you're saying that they're subjectively bad, then no one can really disagree with you. If you're saying that they're objectively bad, then it depends on which prequel you're on about.

Attack of the Clones only really had a crazy bouncing Yoda versus Dooku, so that's excusable.

The Phantom Menace final duel was excellent and Swordguy, a professional fight choreographer on these forums, loved it.

I haven't seen Revenge of the Sith, so can't comment.

[Devonix]

Plenty of people disliked the fight scenes in the prequels especially the light-saber ones. The originals didn't have flash jumps or acrobatics, because they are unnecessary, hell in the original it really was not about the battle at all, and more about the reasons behind it and the emotional context.

That was really what the prequels were missing, emotional attachment. There is a reason the hero's journey is such a prevalent trope in fiction, because it allows us to connect with the characters with ease, and draws us in because it is the basis for a good story. Without characters you care about the action scenes just don't matter.

The only fight in the entire Prequel Trillogy worth a damn was the one in Phantom menace. Even that was a bit flashy but still Ray Park knows how to sell the emotion of a fight scene. You can FEEEL the hate flowing off of him during it.

All the others were more like Ballets than real fights.

[The Glyphstone]

I know this, and I somehow completely forgot he was in the movie, I have no idea how! Still, that just reinforces my point...

I think you forgot him because he was barely 'acting' at all. He thought the movie was stupid, only took it for the paycheck, and phoned in the entire performance.

[TheArsenal]

Yes, even in the Phantom menace. Its because it makes no sense when you REALY inspect it. Its a DANCE (A good one at that). Not a fight.

[Brother Oni]

The only fight in the entire Prequel Trillogy worth a damn was the one in Phantom menace. Even that was a bit flashy but still Ray Park knows how to sell the emotion of a fight scene. You can FEEEL the hate flowing off of him during it.

Oh definitely. The bit where they're separated by the forcefields - Qui-Gon is sitting there meditating, while Maul is stalking back and forth like a caged tiger - even though nothing is happening, you can feel the tension in the air.


Yes, even in the Phantom menace. Its because it makes no sense when you REALY inspect it. Its a DANCE (A good one at that). Not a fight.

What were you expecting? A two second duel which ends with mutual death for both participants after the first strike? That's what typically happens in sword fights to the death.
It also generally makes for poor cinema, unless you're intentionally going for a a very gritty, realisitic film, which is pretty much the antithesis of the Star Wars theme.

In any case, Jedi are known to have limited pre-cognitive abilities, part of the reason why they're generally so hard to kill. This reflects back into the films as an excuse to have extended fight scenes.

[AgentofHellfire]

Meh. I'll just continue being the only guy in the world who likes all six episodes...


Not true.

There are two of us. :smalltongue:

(Three, it seems, because of forum explorer. Though maybe two still, because I didn't like Episode 5 all that much)

[AgentofHellfire]

Plenty of people disliked the fight scenes in the prequels especially the light-saber ones. The originals didn't have flash jumps or acrobatics, because they are unnecessary, hell in the original it really was not about the battle at all, and more about the reasons behind it and the emotional context.

That was really what the prequels were missing, emotional attachment. There is a reason the hero's journey is such a prevalent trope in fiction, because it allows us to connect with the characters with ease, and draws us in because it is the basis for a good story. Without characters you care about the action scenes just don't matter.

See, I don't understand the equation of action scenes to a lack of character depth: Anakin, seeming whininess notwithstanding, was faced with an understandable conflict between his teachings, his own desires, what was quickly turning out to be the reality to him (Windu not really following the Jedi way, if anyone noticed) and the desire to save the life of someone he cared about the most.

Then there's most of the other Jedi, and their attempts to maintain their way in the galaxy...resembles a lot of people trying to hold their lives together. And so on.

That was all there as well, just no one really noticed it.

[snoopy13a]

The same thing goes for both Neeson and McGregor, they are both excellent actors who have displayed very good performances in other movies, however the dialogue they were given and Lucas's directing simply murdered their performance.

I thought both were good, especially Neeson who I thought played an excellent Jedi master. Natalie Portman wasn't--which is probably a testament to Lucas and Christensen.

[Aotrs Commander]

Not true.

There are two of us. :smalltongue:

(Three, it seems, because of forum explorer. Though maybe two still, because I didn't like Episode 5 all that much)

Four. I liked all six (to varying degrees, and the prequels mostly because it was watching the rise of the the Empire (where my loyalty lies).) I also like a fair bit of the EU (though it must be said the quality is wildly variable, for the sublime - Zhan/Stackpole/TIE Fighter (yes, that totally counts) to the the ridiculous (the New Jedi Order stuff, and the opne that was after, that I made it half way into the second book of (noteably, the one written by Trasviss).)

I like the CGI Clone Wars, it's a darn sight better than a large amount of regular cartoons (I mean, they actually kill people, for a kick off), for all that the style is a bit strange. (Though some of the leaps they're taking in the more recent episodes are a bit...questionalable...)

So...yeah. Not been a fan of the Lucas bashing that's characterised most SW discussions, but I also met the news he was revising the OT again with an eye-roll. (First time was fair enough, SFX have moved on a lot better (and unlike a lot of people seem to, I don't have a rabid bias against using CGI instead of models.))

[snoopy13a]

See, I don't understand the equation of action scenes to a lack of character depth: Anakin, seeming whininess notwithstanding, was faced with an understandable conflict between his teachings, his own desires, what was quickly turning out to be the reality to him (Windu not really following the Jedi way, if anyone noticed) and the desire to save the life of someone he cared about the most.

Then there's most of the other Jedi, and their attempts to maintain their way in the galaxy...resembles a lot of people trying to hold their lives together. And so on.

That was all there as well, just no one really noticed it.

I agree about Anakin. The problem with that character wasn't concept; it was excecution.

[The Succubus]

I agree about Anakin. The problem with that character wasn't concept; it was excecution.

Agreed. If he had been executed, it would have been vastly more entertaining. :smalltongue:

The thing is, my inner SW geek is a noisy so & so. He *hates* Lucas for constantly messing with the originals but if you manage to calm him down or catch him when he's rational, he will grudgingly admit to liking certain scenes from the prequel trilogy:

* As others have hilighted above, the final fight at the end of Phantom Menace was good, with Darth Maul carrying the brooding, menacing apprentice thing quite well.

* The sequence before the battle with Gungans - there's a bit where the robots, are deployed from their carriers. All of them perfectly synchronised as they stand and unholster their weapons. I felt this bit was quite effective as it showed how a real robot army would work and goes a small way towards counter-balancing the "Roger-roger" comedy of earlier scenes.

* Attack of the Clones also had a similar scene where we're taken to Geonosis and see the Stormtroopers for the first time - their sheer mass of numbers, the way they are manufactured and trained.

* The first fight between Jango Fett and Obi-Wan on the platforms of Geonosis. It's a good match between a Force user and a non-force user. Unfortunately, the skill he displays in this fight magically disappears during the fight in the arena. :smallannoyed:

* Revenge of the Sith had two of my favourite moments in the entire prequel trilogy, both right at the end. The scene where Vader's mask is lowered onto his face and the helm placed on top - for a few seconds, the sound goes absolutely quiet and we hear *that* sound for the first time. It makes me tingly.:smallredface:

* The other scene is the bit at Anakin's home on Coruscant, where he is admiring Padme and says "You're so beauti" - I'm sorry, I couldn't finish that with a straight face. :smallbiggrin: Seriously, the other scene is right at the end where Aunt Beru and Owen are holding baby Luke up against the sunset and we hear that mournful solo horn playing before the original Star Wars theme plays...*sniff* :smallfrown:

Other noteable mentions include the performance by Ian McDiarmid (as mentioned before, when he is playing cold, calculating Palpatine, not captain cuckoo Palpatine) and the bit everyone *always* overlooks - the fantastic music. My eyes may be appalled by the floppy-eared wastrel on screen but at least my ears can settle back and enjoy the music, aside from the occasional "Exsqueeze me!"....

[RabbitHoleLost]

Unpopular Opinion Rabbit Says:

I really feel for Lucas. I honestly do, and I don't blame him at all for feeling the way he does, and I wish him all the best in his retirement.
And also that he doesn't get mauled to death by "fans".

[AgentofHellfire]

I agree about Anakin. The problem with that character wasn't concept; it was excecution.

I can agree to that. They didn't exactly detail Anakin's conflict very much.

However, that's kind of a reason to like the scene where Windu dies. It shows more of the conflict than most of the movie, so...

[DiscipleofBob]

To give Lucas some credit though, Sir Alec Guinness wasn't going to do the role when he found out Obi-Wan Kenobi would die at the end of the first movie and Lucas convinced him to do it because it would be best for the story.

Nope. (http://www.cracked.com/article_18593_6-classics-despised-by-people-who-created-them.html) It's the other way around. Guiness hated the role so much that he claims to have negotiated for Obi-Wan to die earlier in the series so he wouldn't have to play the character as much.

Also...


In his autobiography, he [Sir Alec Guiness] mentions a small child coming up to him and saying that he'd seen Star Wars 100 times.

Guinness replied that he'd give the kid an autograph if he promised to never watch the movie again and the boy burst into tears.

[polity4life]

As someone who has read and played in the EU, whether it's after or before all of the movies, I will say that Lucas made his own bed with fan rage concerning the PT and I'll tell you why.

It goes without saying that Timothy Zahn's work in the EU is simply the best written and among the most enjoyed among all EU works that aren't video games. In my opinion, Lucas could have bridged the gap between the EU and the PT by simply showing that the Chiss existed. Even alluding that he recognized Thrawn, a very popular character, would have silenced a lot of ornery fans.

Nevermind the fact that the Victory-class Star Destroyer or the Dreadnaught wasn't shown, nevermind the fact that Outbound wasn't ever mentioned, and nevermind the fact that the concept of Sith goes well beyond two existing at any given point; just show a blue-skinned fellow and you're going to appease the smelly masses.

But in his infinite ego, he didn't. I don't feel sorry or happy for him. In fact, I'm rather indifferent. He was an entertainer that could be very effective and ineffective at the same time. I will say that I hope he finds something he will enjoy working on.

EDIT: Forgot to write this. The fact that he didn't show anything from the EU, anything that described what happened before Episode IV showed that he didn't care what he had already endorsed, didn't care about what the fans liked or disliked, and felt his ideas were better. Again, ego.

[The Succubus]

Unpopular Opinion Rabbit Says:

I really feel for Lucas. I honestly do, and I don't blame him at all for feeling the way he does, and I wish him all the best in his retirement.
And also that he doesn't get mauled to death by "fans".

It's like having a lop-eared conscience prodding at you. :smallfrown:

It's easy to get caught up in the Lucas hate bandwagon and deride him for the changes he's made, the mistakes he made and so on but as Rabbit reminds us, a sense of proportion is vital. The man isn't a monster - he hasn't gone around trying to force through unpopular legislation, ground ships off Italian islands or kick small puppies and the people that worked with him (I'm looking at you, Mr McCallum) should have been there to say "George, is this Jar-Jar guy *really* a good idea?"

Before it morphed into the behemoth it is today, Star Wars was a very small scale, on the fly piece of filming and it's flaws became it's charms. Maybe Mr Lucas can recapture some of the rough and ready style he had long ago and may his future films be better for it.

[TheCountAlucard]

...and the people that worked with him (I'm looking at you, Mr McCallum) should have been there to say "George, is this Jar-Jar guy *really* a good idea?"Why bother? If he'd done that, McCallum would've just been out of a job. :smallsigh:

[Talya]

People are simultaneously too easy on and too hard on George Lucas. Thing is, he gets criticized for the wrong reasons.

Anybody who says he didn't have anything to do with the success of the series or that it wasn't his vision...that it was derivative...you honestly don't know what you're talking about.

First of all, there is no such thing as an original story. EVERY movie, tv show, comic book, novel, play, legend, or myth is derivative of something that came before it. Originality is not in creating something new, but taking old ideas and putting them together in new ways. And in this respect, Star Wars was highly original, despite its Kurisawa origins.

Lucas wrote ANH by himself. He wrote the stories for ESB and RotJ, then had a script-doctor rewrite them as screenplays, and he himself hired other directors to direct for him. This wasn't forced on him by the studios...after ANH he'd quit the director's guild already and was writing his own ticket. Even the choice of directors was all his doing. Lucas deserves all the credit for the success of the originals. And he could have made the prequels just as well, except...

Lucas was a humbler, less confident man back then. Sadly, this was a good thing. During the filming of the first Star Wars movie back in 75, Harrison Ford made a legendary comment to Lucas that really defines the problem. The cast were sitting around a table looking at the script, when Ford (who was good friends with Lucas) tossed the script he was given across the table and shook his head, saying, "George, a person can write this stuff, sure, but nobody could ever say it." And so it got changed. It was script by committee...because back then Lucas was open to suggestions. He had incredible talent and imagination, but those skills had nothing to do with his inability to write dialogue.

Skip ahead 25 years, and the prequels show it. No longer does Lucas need to get the opinions of the actors or other people involved. He's made his billions, and is surrounded by sycophants and yes-men. While the core vision and imagination are still there (it would be so easy to make the prequels into really good movies with a few dialogue changes and at least one cast member replaced), nobody is editing or filtering the crap that he cannot write.

As a side note, while it runs counter to Academy thinking to even consider what I'm about to suggest, I believe they should have created a special Oscar category for Ewan MacGregor's role in the prequels. The man transcended Lucas's script and made that horrid dialogue sound workable. He's a font of thespian genius.

[The Succubus]

As a side note, while it runs counter to Academy thinking to even consider what I'm about to suggest, I believe they should have created a special Oscar category for Ewan MacGregor's role in the prequels. The man transcended Lucas's script and made that horrid dialogue sound workable. He's a font of thespian genius.

Now if there's someone I *truly* felt sorry for during the PT, it's this guy. I swear there were more than a few times I could actually see him visibly cringe while delivering a line - the discussion between him and Padme in Revenge where he tells her "Anakin...was killing younglings". He raises his hand to his mouth, not in a gesture of horror but in a gesture of "I can't believe I just said that." Note how the camera quickly pans away after he says it.

[snoopy13a]

Lucas was a humbler, less confident man back then. Sadly, this was a good thing. During the filming of the first Star Wars movie back in 75, Harrison Ford made a legendary comment to Lucas that really defines the problem. The cast were sitting around a table looking at the script, when Ford (who was good friends with Lucas) tossed the script he was given across the table and shook his head, saying, "George, a person can write this stuff, sure, but nobody could ever say it." And so it got changed. It was script by committee...because back then Lucas was open to suggestions. He had incredible talent and imagination, but those skills had nothing to do with his inability to write dialogue.



I have a feeling that the issue with the prequels was the lack of a Han Solo-type character.

[Philistine]

I have a feeling that the issue with the prequels was the lack of a Han Solo-type character.

To do what, exactly, in the story?

[The Succubus]

To do what, exactly, in the story?

Shoot Jar-Jar repeatedly in the face.

[TheArsenal]

If there is one thing I hate more then the prequels its the EU. It feels so...sleezy. 90% of it is bullcrap to make the prequels make sense!

Or Mandalorian idiocy, or more holes on how the force corrupts and destroys!

It just feels so sleezy in the sense that its like "well this doesn't make any sense"

"No it makes perfect sense! Just read volumes A-65465Z to realize that he was using "force-plot hole close" and the reason he didn't do this earlier was because the hat he was wearing is made out of pepparoni"

JUST ACCEPT THE MISTAKES LIKE A MAN.

Star wars isn't a maovie that makes sense with a huge backstory unlike Star Trek.

[Aotrs Commander]

If there is one thing I hate more then the prequels its the EU. It feels so...sleezy. 90% of it is bullcrap to make the prequels make sense!

Or Mandalorian idiocy, or more holes on how the force corrupts and destroys!

It just feels so sleezy in the sense that its like "well this doesn't make any sense"

"No it makes perfect sense! Just read volumes A-65465Z to realize that he was using "force-plot hole close" and the reason he didn't do this earlier was because the hat he was wearing is made out of pepparoni"

JUST ACCEPT THE MISTAKES LIKE A MAN.

Star wars isn't a maovie that makes sense with a huge backstory unlike Star Trek.

Depressingly, the earlier EU stuff (before the prequels came out, i.e. I mean before the movies came out) tends to be better than the more recent stuff, both in the past and the "present."

[snoopy13a]

Shoot Jar-Jar repeatedly in the face.

But the movies would be changed so that Jar-Jar shoots first :smallsmile:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I will go ahead and commit treason by saying that I enjoyed the prequel trilogy. *hides behind a +5 Tower Shield*

You are not alone in that sentiment.

*locks own +5 Tower Shield with yours to make a two-man fanlanx*

[Philistine]

Oh really? Reconcile the plot of Star Trek V with the entire premise of Voyager, then. And that's just one of the many glaring holes in the Trek universe.

Also, I'm pretty sure that most EU material is still set years or decades after the OT (or thousands of years earlier), and has nothing at all to do with the PT.

[Trekkin]

To do what, exactly, in the story?

To be a deuteragonist the audience can find engaging, maybe. The prequels never really had that, at least for me; to understand Amidala, you have to understand Naboo's politics, and to understand the Jedi requires understanding how Jedi work philosophically. Han played off of Luke in a way that didn't need much of the rest of the film to really support, because "scoundrel" can be portrayed in a conceptually neat way that "princess" really can't, and it really economized on screen time, which makes for a more impactful series of scenes.

Of course, one could argue we needed a Luke in the prequels to give us the same thing in a protagonist, given how hard it is to empathize with a whiny-voiced experiment in Force-induced parthenogenesis.

[Talya]

Oh really? Reconcile the plot of Star Trek V with the entire premise of Voyager, then. And that's just one of the many glaring holes in the Trek universe.




ST V came out before Roddenbury died, and he's on record saying he considered it apocryphal, that that story never happened.

I believe the rest of Trek canon just ignores ST V -- not specifically for that reason, but because ST V was terrible. But they feel better about it knowing they have Roddenbury's blessing for doing so.

[factotum]

So...yeah. Not been a fan of the Lucas bashing that's characterised most SW discussions, but I also met the news he was revising the OT again with an eye-roll. (First time was fair enough, SFX have moved on a lot better (and unlike a lot of people seem to, I don't have a rabid bias against using CGI instead of models.))

The thing is, if all Lucas did was update the SFX, I don't think anybody would complain (apart from maybe a few purists who need to get out more). The main problem is that he can't resist tweaking the actual *story* while he's doing this--the whole Greedo shot first thing was just the most egregious example, since it both destroyed the scene is happened in and derailed some of Han Solo's character development while it was about it.

[Talya]

Well, let's face it...with Star Wars remastered in 3D, not only will Greedo shoot first, but he will shoot first into the audience.

Nothing good can come of this.

[TheArsenal]

Oh really? Reconcile the plot of Star Trek V with the entire premise of Voyager, then. And that's just one of the many glaring holes in the Trek universe. WELL STAR TRECK DID THAAAAAT!

Yes, ye it did. It also had another 1,000,000 gaping plotholes but overall its general structure was better made for exploration then star wars.


Also, I'm pretty sure that most EU material is still set years or decades after the OT (or thousands of years earlier), and has nothing at all to do with the PT.

There is two types of material:

A:The books that add force powers and stupid explanations that don't make much sense to make the prequels work.

Or

B: The stuff that points out that the force is an EVIL-EVIL force. Unless you purge yourself of all emotion you go berserk and create sith. So this is a disutopian galaxy where a force corrupts the young and the world goes in Cycles of the Sith taking over/ the jedi being stupid.

[The J Pizzel]

Warning: Possible thread derail.....

Four words
Christopher Nolan Thrawn Trilogy

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, let's face it...with Star Wars remastered in 3D, not only will Greedo shoot first, but he will shoot first into the audience.

Nothing good can come of this.
I feel a great... Thing happening here. As if a whole lot of things did a thing, and then spontaneously stopped doing that thing.:smallbiggrin:

[Soras Teva Gee]

Warning: Possible thread derail.....

Four words
Christopher Nolan Thrawn Trilogy

Yeah no, wouldn't work for many reasons.

[Aotrs Commander]

Warning: Possible thread derail.....

Four words
Christopher Nolan Thrawn Trilogy

Care to elaborate?

[hamishspence]

Depressingly, the earlier EU stuff (before the prequels came out, i.e. I mean before the movies came out) tends to be better than the more recent stuff, both in the past and the "present."

Some writers handle prequel era stuff well (Matt Stover, James Luceno), some a bit less so.

The newest book (Darth Plagueis) is pretty interesting- shows how Palpatine was recruited into the Sith, and finishes around the same place The Phantom Menace does.

[Coidzor]

Unpopular Opinion Rabbit Says:

I really feel for Lucas. I honestly do, and I don't blame him at all for feeling the way he does, and I wish him all the best in his retirement.
And also that he doesn't get mauled to death by "fans".

Last I checked he has way too much money for that to even be a concern, Rabbs, and in any case if they were going to do so it would have already happened. Leaving Star Wars is not exactly going to be the straw that broke the camel's back for violence against him.


It's like having a lop-eared conscience prodding at you. :smallfrown:

What, you wanted to physically hurt him? :smallconfused: I just wanted him to... well... grow up at some point. He's like, older than my dad. If either of my grandfathers were alive, he'd be as old as their little brothers. Actually, I think one of my granduncles is still alive and Lucas is about his age, though he may be a half-granduncle.


It just feels so sleezy in the sense that its like "well this doesn't make any sense"

I don't think that's a very widely recognized form of sleaziness. :smallconfused:


Star wars isn't a maovie that makes sense with a huge backstory unlike Star Trek.

So, you're saying Star Wars shouldn't have had a huge backstory because in context it wouldn't make sense or are you saying that unlike Star Trek, Star Wars' backstory didn't make any sense which them implies that Star Trek's backstory makes sense?


You are not alone in that sentiment.

*locks own +5 Tower Shield with yours to make a two-man fanlanx*

Have you read the thread? Because you might notice we're not exactly hurling flaming feces at people for having like the prequels. :smallannoyed:

[Brother Oni]

Yes, ye it did. It also had another 1,000,000 gaping plotholes but overall its general structure was better made for exploration then star wars.

Except that there's very little exploration in Star Wars.

The SW universe is on the other side of the bell curve of technology - almost everything has been discovered, there's no real universe altering technological discoveries left to make, which gives it a very different feel to the Trek universe.

As an example, anti-grav technology is so commonplace in SW, it's used with draft animals to carry cargo.

[hamishspence]

EDIT: Forgot to write this. The fact that he didn't show anything from the EU, anything that described what happened before Episode IV showed that he didn't care what he had already endorsed, didn't care about what the fans liked or disliked, and felt his ideas were better. Again, ego.

the name Coruscant for the capital planet, first appeared in the EU.

[TheArsenal]

I meant that is Science FANTASY not Science fiction.

Its sleezy (Or cheep) in that it has dozens of authors working together to try to scotch tape an explanation to the prequels and mostly failing.

Im talking about stuff like Making bobba fett not just some shlub that looks cool and died. NO, he is the last survivor of the race of baddassians (Cough sue cough). It just feels so pandering. Its like if the giant suddenly made the guy with the halberg the harbringer of Thor and revealed that he was the last of the Kickassians.

Im talking about stuff like "How could Anikin do this, this this/ act stupid here"

"Its because a force wizard did it (Without any implication in the movies)

"But why then didn't he do this?"

"because ummm...SHUT UP!"

Like for example, why didn't the droids destroy the water planet?

"Well they attacked onec and failed"

"well why didn't they CONTINUE attacking the place? Setting mines, destroying the stupid stilt plants, and preventing resource shipments? Thats the ONE place they need to destroy to win!"

"Uhh...Shut up."

[Saph]

* As others have hilighted above, the final fight at the end of Phantom Menace was good, with Darth Maul carrying the brooding, menacing apprentice thing quite well.

Maybe it's just me, but I really liked the final duel at the end of Episode III, just because it's the only lightsaber duel in the prequel where we've got a genuinely good reason to care about both participants. Especially right at the end, when Ewan MacGregor finally breaks down and starts yelling at Anakin . . .

[Talya]

Maybe it's just me, but I really liked the final duel at the end of Episode III, just because it's the only lightsaber duel in the prequel where we've got a genuinely good reason to care about both participants. Especially right at the end, when Ewan MacGregor finally breaks down and starts yelling at Anakin . . .


I'd agree with you, if not for the ending of that duel.

"It's over, Anakin. I have the high ground!"

For the record, I tried this in the "False Emperor" flashpoint of SWTOR while tanking Darth Malgus. I walked backward up the steps to the throne, and told my group "Don't worry. We have this fight. It's over! I have the high ground!"

We wiped shortly afterward. Turns out the high ground doesn't help. You need to knock him off a bridge.

[The Succubus]

What, you wanted to physically hurt him? :smallconfused: I just wanted him to... well... grow up at some point. He's like, older than my dad. If either of my grandfathers were alive, he'd be as old as their little brothers. Actually, I think one of my granduncles is still alive and Lucas is about his age, though he may be a half-granduncle.

Stop right there Skippy - I never said anything about wanting to hurt the guy.

The part of my conscience that Rabbit poked was the bit about being overzealous in my criticism of the guy and heaping a disproportionate amount of hate for his alteration of the OT and poor judgements on the PT.

[turkishproverb]

No mention of James Earl Jones?

His name wasn't on the first two movies originally. Still, fair point.


I know this, and I somehow completely forgot he was in the movie, I have no idea how! Still, that just reinforces my point...

...

HOW?

[Saph]

I'd agree with you, if not for the ending of that duel.

"It's over, Anakin. I have the high ground!"

Yeah, OK, that was stupid. But right after is one of my favourite lines in the whole series: "You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness!"

[Weezer]

I meant that is Science FANTASY not Science fiction.

Its sleezy (Or cheep) in that it has dozens of authors working together to try to scotch tape an explanation to the prequels and mostly failing.

Im talking about stuff like Making bobba fett not just some shlub that looks cool and died. NO, he is the last survivor of the race of baddassians (Cough sue cough). It just feels so pandering. Its like if the giant suddenly made the guy with the halberg the harbringer of Thor and revealed that he was the last of the Kickassians.

Im talking about stuff like "How could Anikin do this, this this/ act stupid here"

"Its because a force wizard did it (Without any implication in the movies)

"But why then didn't he do this?"

"because ummm...SHUT UP!"

Like for example, why didn't the droids destroy the water planet?

"Well they attacked onec and failed"

"well why didn't they CONTINUE attacking the place? Setting mines, destroying the stupid stilt plants, and preventing resource shipments? Thats the ONE place they need to destroy to win!"

"Uhh...Shut up."

You know Star Trek has much the same problem. It too has a bunch of rather crappy novels, many of which are simply fanwank (like one I read that brought Kirk back and ended with him destroying/defeating the borg. Yeah.) but have a few good ones sprinkled in amongst them. Sure the ST version of the EU is neither as large nor as popular as SW, but that's due to popularity and they differ mostly in terms of scale, not quality.

[turkishproverb]

There is two types of material:

A:The books that add force powers and stupid explanations that don't make much sense to make the prequels work.

Or

B: The stuff that points out that the force is an EVIL-EVIL force. Unless you purge yourself of all emotion you go berserk and create sith. So this is a disutopian galaxy where a force corrupts the young and the world goes in Cycles of the Sith taking over/ the jedi being stupid.

Um...no.

There's more than that. Even if it's not good, there are plenty of other types of EU material. And that's to say nothing of the few Good books in the EU (Like almost anything Zahn wrote).


Warning: Possible thread derail.....

Four words
Christopher Nolan Thrawn Trilogy

Eh, not too sure. He'd be on my list of considerations, but then so would JMS oddly. Then again, we kind've know JMS has lost his mind a bit...

[Tanuki Tales]

So...is Star Wars finally going to grow the beard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrowingTheBeard)?

[TheCountAlucard]

Maybe it's just me, but I really liked the final duel at the end of Episode III, just because it's the only lightsaber duel in the prequel where we've got a genuinely good reason to care about both participants.I liked it, for the first five minutes or so. The next forty-five minutes were a bit tiresome. :smallannoyed:

I got exhausted just watching these iron-stamina combatants fighting non-stop in an environment that realistically should've killed them twice over. It became clear to me very quickly that the fight would only end when the plot said it was over, and so I really didn't get any enjoyment out of watching it.

To be honest? I literally have to fight to stay awake through that part of the movie these days, emotional connections be damned.

[TheArsenal]

Um...no.

There's more than that. Even if it's not good, there are plenty of other types of EU material. And that's to say nothing of the few Good books in the EU (Like almost anything Zahn wrote).


Well to be fair, I don't like the SW universe (Mostly because of the prequels). It just has so many things that make me mad in it. I totally get that there are gems in everything. Even fan-fiction (I just havent found them yet).

[Talya]

I got exhausted just watching these iron-stamina combatants fighting non-stop in an environment that realistically should've killed them twice over.

Welcome to a pet peeve of mine: environments featuring open lava and people nearby it suffering no ill effects other than anti-perspirant failure.

Lava is between 700 and 1200 degrees celsius (The more orange and liquid it is, the higher that temperature.) I'm sorry, but a single breath of air during that fight on Mustafar would have seared both their lungs and they'd have roasted alive (well, dead) in less than a minute.

This is particularly egregious in settings with caves. A cave system...with open lava inside. Yeah. That airflow has really gotta be good not to turn the whole place into an oven. But Mustafar had thousands of acres of ground covered by bright orange lava, and they were fighting in the middle of it.

Fortunately, I'm already used to forcing belief for this (I've been doing it ever since I was a little kid watching Gilligan's Island reruns), so it wasn't nearly as jarring to my suspension of disbelief as any time Hayden Christiansen spoke.

[Coidzor]

Its sleezy (Or cheep) in that it has dozens of authors working together to try to scotch tape an explanation to the prequels and mostly failing.

Neither of those words are spelled that way. They need an a after the first e.

Further, that's still not sleazy. Nor any definition of cheap I've run into.


Stop right there Skippy - I never said anything about wanting to hurt the guy.

The part of my conscience that Rabbit poked was the bit about being overzealous in my criticism of the guy and heaping a disproportionate amount of hate for his alteration of the OT and poor judgements on the PT.

Yes, hence the incredulous asking as to why the hell it was conscience-inducing that she talked about hoping he didn't get mauled. Thank you for still answering the question despite the miscommunication. Sorry about that.

Though I don't really see how being annoyed at him and criticizing him for bad decisions really qualifies as hate.

I really should remember to use blue more often. :smallsigh:

[TheArsenal]

Sorry about my spewling. But eh, thats just the feeling I get.

[The Glyphstone]

Welcome to a pet peeve of mine: environments featuring open lava and people nearby it suffering no ill effects other than anti-perspirant failure.

Lava is between 700 and 1200 degrees celsius (The more orange and liquid it is, the higher that temperature.) I'm sorry, but a single breath of air during that fight on Mustafar would have seared both their lungs and they'd have roasted alive (well, dead) in less than a minute.

This is particularly egregious in settings with caves. A cave system...with open lava inside. Yeah. That airflow has really gotta be good not to turn the whole place into an oven. But Mustafar had thousands of acres of ground covered by bright orange lava, and they were fighting in the middle of it.

Fortunately, I'm already used to forcing belief for this (I've been doing it ever since I was a little kid watching Gilligan's Island reruns), so it wasn't nearly as jarring to my suspension of disbelief as any time Hayden Christiansen spoke.

Convection Shonvmection. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvectionSchmonvection)

[Tanuki Tales]

Convection Shonvmection. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvectionSchmonvection)

Don't Jedi also have very effective breathing techniques?

Or was that just KOTR II?

[pendell]

Is it just me, but does it seem like arguing whether SW is more believable than ST sort of like arguing which of two level 0 commoners is the better fighter? I mean, come on, one might be marginally better than the other, but both require dramatic feats of imagination to shut down the brain screaming *doez NOT WORK* .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheArsenal]

Is it just me, but does it seem like arguing whether SW is more believable than ST sort of like arguing which of two level 0 commoners is the better fighter? I mean, come on, one might be marginally better than the other, but both require dramatic feats of imagination to shut down the brain screaming *doez NOT WORK* .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Pretty much. Its just the style of storytelling in each that is more important also compared to the setting.

[Weezer]

Don't Jedi also have very effective breathing techniques?

Or was that just KOTR II?

Yeah, they can hold their breaths for longer than normal, however that doesn't stop their skin or clothing from igniting due to the fact that they're right next to bloody lava.

[Alex Star]

It's difficult to put into words the feelings that I actually have about this. So this has the potential to be a very long post.

Lets start with my stance.

I love Star Wars, I love it's message, I love the story it tells, I love that it breaks clear of what is safe, and tells a story that strikes so close to home that it almost forces people to dislike it at times.

I love how I can see someone watch the original trilogy, and become a child again. And I love observing how watching the prequels can impact people as deeply as they do, even if they are unaware of it.

I love the rush of emotions that come from people when they talk about Star Wars. It's such a powerful saga, told MASTERFULLY and I do not use that word lightly. It accomplishes so much more than it would appear on the surface, and for that I laud it for everything it is.

And yes, I hold a deep abiding respect for George Lucas and his creation. And more than that I believe the story telling and the message is far more profound in the prequels than it is in the originals. But understand that I hold both in the absolute highest regard.

These things being said I would like to address two very common things I hear about Star Wars.

1.) You don't own anything. (If I have to read another absurd argument about how "Star Wars" or any other piece of media belongs to the fans I think I'm going to be sick.)

You do not own Star Wars any more than I own Coca-Cola because I drink their product, or Taco Bell because I eat their food, or Dungeons and Dragons because I play their RPG. And rest assured I have spent far more money in my life on Coke, Taco Bell, and D&D than I have on Star Wars though I can legitimately say that I like Star Wars more.

Star Wars is the legitimate intellectual property of George Lucas, and if you don't like it, or what he decides to do with it then guess what? GO FIND SOMETHING ELSE.

2.) You don't HAVE to like it, and no one else HAS to care.

[Alex Star]

Yeah, they can hold their breaths for longer than normal, however that doesn't stop their skin or clothing from igniting due to the fact that they're right next to bloody lava.

It's pretty cannon that Jedi create a shield of the force around themselves to keep simple things like environmental hazards from having effect on them. This is explained multiple times in the movies.

1.) Darth Vader deflects blaster bolts with his hand using only the force.
2.) Obi-Wan, Qui-Gonn, and Darth Maul all protect themselves from the radiation on Naboo.
3.) Yoda absorbs Dooku's lightning with only his hand.
4.) Anakin and Obi-Wan resist eachothers Force Push techniques simultaneously
5.) Both Anakin and Obi-Wan protect themselves from the heat on mustafar

[VanBuren]

It's pretty cannon that Jedi create a shield of the force around themselves to keep simple things like environmental hazards from having effect on them. This is explained multiple times in the movies.

1.) Darth Vader deflects blaster bolts with his hand using only the force.
2.) Obi-Wan, Qui-Gonn, and Darth Maul all protect themselves from the radiation on Naboo.
3.) Yoda absorbs Dooku's lightning with only his hand.
4.) Anakin and Obi-Wan resist eachothers Force Push techniques simultaneously
5.) Both Anakin and Obi-Wan protect themselves from the heat on mustafar

I thought #4 was more a result of each Force Push being held back by the other.

[TheCountAlucard]

1.) You do not own Star Wars any more than I own Coca-Cola because I drink their product, or Taco Bell because I eat their food, or Dungeons and Dragons because I play their RPG.Yet I can assure you that if you go to Taco Bell and buy some food, you're going to be upset if one of their employees runs up and takes it back from you, with the justification that it's "theirs."


2.) You don't HAVE to like it, and no one else HAS to care.May not HAVE to like it, but again with the Taco Bell analogy, if you order a taco, you should have every right to be upset if you instead find you're being served a soiled tortilla filled with empty hot sauce packets.

[Saph]

Convection Shonvmection. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvectionSchmonvection)

I just assumed they were using the Jedi version of Resist Fire/Endure Elements or whatever. Given that they can absorb blaster bolts.

Note that Anakin only catches fire after he's been hacked into bits by Obi-Wan's lightsaber, which presumably makes it a bit harder to concentrate on keeping your shields up.

[Weezer]

It's pretty cannon that Jedi create a shield of the force around themselves to keep simple things like environmental hazards from having effect on them. This is explained multiple times in the movies.

1.) Darth Vader deflects blaster bolts with his hand using only the force.
2.) Obi-Wan, Qui-Gonn, and Darth Maul all protect themselves from the radiation on Naboo.
3.) Yoda absorbs Dooku's lightning with only his hand.
4.) Anakin and Obi-Wan resist eachothers Force Push techniques simultaneously
5.) Both Anakin and Obi-Wan protect themselves from the heat on mustafar

You're first one isn't actually accurate, Vader deflected the bolt with his armored gauntlet, not the Force. Also I remember no mention of radiation on Naboo.
Three I'll kind of give you, yes Yoda has shown the ability to absorb/redirect force lightning, but that can be chalked up to the fact that to do so Yoda is merely controlling a manifestation of the Force, not a natural phenomena and certainly not equivalent to creating some form of heat shield.
Four is due to the fact that the two pushes "cancelled" each other out. And the fifth is what we are complaining about as not being explained, so it's not a good example.

[hamishspence]

EU (Jedi Academy) takes it one step further with Luke walking on lava undamaged (for a few seconds)- using the Force to protect himself.

[pendell]

It's not movie-canon, but in Knights of the Old Republic one of the items you can buy is an environment shield which protects the user from heat, cold, and other environmental damage. That story predates the main star wars story by several thousand years. Even though the Republic has become essentially stagnant , it's possible that those devices have been perfected and improved.

Of course, the real answer is that George Lucas cares more about rule of cool than about scientific accuracy. If science conflicts with storytelling, story telling wins. He's writing for box office returns, not nobel prizes.

I forget the exact interview, but I remember watching a commentary on Ep. III which had GL doing the commentary. He mentioned during the space battle scene that one of his staff had criticized the scene of Grievous' cape flowing in outer space as the atmosphere of the flagship vented. The staffer's comment was essentially "gravity does not work that way." Lucas' response: "I know."

Of course, Rich Burlew commits the same crimes against game rules when he tells OOTS. The thing is -- for whatever reason the storytelling works in OOTS, but it comes across as clunky in the prequels. Why?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

HOW?

Because my point was that there weren't really many more "big name" actors in Episode 1 than Episode 4, and you reminded me of a big name from Episode 4 I'd forgotten, thus balancing it out even more!

[TheArsenal]

Because the rule of cool is ignoring DD rules. Not the rules of Storytelling.

If you make your characters do SUCH unbelievable things the whole thing becomes a farce and all tension is dead.

[TheArsenal]

May not HAVE to like it, but again with the Taco Bell analogy, if you order a taco, you should have every right to be upset if you instead find you're being served a soiled tortilla filled with empty hot sauce packets.

And your told that its better that way, and refuse to give you the taco.

[hamishspence]

I see the Special Edition changes as more changing the recipe of the taco, and ceasing to sell ones made to the old recipe.

Disappointing for some- but well within the discretion of the seller.

[Ravens_cry]

I see the Special Edition changes as more changing the recipe of the taco, and ceasing to sell ones made to the old recipe.

Disappointing for some- but well within the discretion of the seller.
Just as it is within the discretion of the buyers to complain about it.
Like New Coke.

[hamishspence]

Complain, maybe- but not to the extent of insisting they're being "defrauded" by the ending of sales of the old line.

[Alex Star]

Yet I can assure you that if you go to Taco Bell and buy some food, you're going to be upset if one of their employees runs up and takes it back from you, with the justification that it's "theirs."

May not HAVE to like it, but again with the Taco Bell analogy, if you order a taco, you should have every right to be upset if you instead find you're being served a soiled tortilla filled with empty hot sauce packets.

You're right, on both occasions. But that's not what's going on.

George Lucas has never come to my house demanded my original VHS copies of Star Wars and then replaced them with the newer versions. He changed them and then it was entirely up to me to make those purchases myself. And not only that but there was FULL DISCLOUSURE before hand I knew exactly what had been changed before I even purchased it.

To your second point. If Taco Bell did give me a Hot Sauce Packet Taco when I ordered a Beef Taco I would be Upset. Because it wasn't what I ordered.

But if I ordered a Beef Taco and I got a Beef Taco but didn't like how it tasted, that's not their fault now is it? And I don't have to buy it again, and I surely don't have to go back for it.

Star Wars is what George Lucas decides it is, now what you want it to be. If you don't like the prequels then the simple fact of the matter is that it was never promised that you would like it. There is no Satisfaction Guaranteed tag on it. There are plenty of other forms of media that are not liked by people, and they simply get passed by.

The truth of it is that you're upset because you percieve that there is some slight against you because it's not the same as the originals. It's different, the characters and story aren't what you grew up loving. To that all I can say is that if you don't like it, don't watch it.

[Alex Star]

Just as it is within the discretion of the buyers to complain about it.
Like New Coke.

WoTC responded to this amongst 3.5 D&D fans at the GenCon before 4e was released. I believe the spokesperson said something along the lines of, and this is not a direct quote.

"While we thank the customers who spent money with us in the past, this is our current product offering, and we will support it for it's lifecycle. If those people no longer wish to spend their money with us then they are no longer our customers."

[hamishspence]

Could be that it's seen as spoiling the message of the originals.

We see few atrocities against "the innocent" onscreen from Vader- only Tarkin. Thus, when Vader's redeemed, people find it acceptable.

But when atrocities are seen onscreen in Revenge of the Sith, some people start thinking "Hey- he was redeemed too easily".

[TheArsenal]

You know, I LOST my original cassettes. Now I cannot watch the original movies without CGI that pops into view.

What if Leonardo Davinci came back from the dead (30 years ago before the advent of digital media) and said "I want all my works to be colored on with cartoons". i GUES it sort of belongs to him but in the end its a part of culture.

PS: Lucas was against this type of stuff when he was against movie coloring. Hes a hypocrite.

But arguing with you is pointless. Its your opinion is set in diamond.

[Traab]

You're first one isn't actually accurate, Vader deflected the bolt with his armored gauntlet, not the Force. Also I remember no mention of radiation on Naboo.
Three I'll kind of give you, yes Yoda has shown the ability to absorb/redirect force lightning, but that can be chalked up to the fact that to do so Yoda is merely controlling a manifestation of the Force, not a natural phenomena and certainly not equivalent to creating some form of heat shield.
Four is due to the fact that the two pushes "cancelled" each other out. And the fifth is what we are complaining about as not being explained, so it's not a good example.

He meant in the reactor room during the final fight with maul, qui gon, and obi wan. Honestly, the entire premise was stupid imo. Why are there shields 10 layers deep? If its that dangerous, why do they keep opening and shutting?

[hamishspence]

As far as I know, nobody ever complains about writers redoing their old works (Terry Pratchett's remake of The Carpet People, for example).

Might this be partly because books are more durable than video cassettes?

[Ravens_cry]

Heck, Tolkien did MAJOR changes to the Hobbit in the 2nd edition, putting it more in line with the Lord of the Rings 'verse, and I bet anything Shakespeare made changes to his plays after their first performance.

[Weezer]

He meant in the reactor room during the final fight with maul, qui gon, and obi wan. Honestly, the entire premise was stupid imo. Why are there shields 10 layers deep? If its that dangerous, why do they keep opening and shutting?

I had forgotten that the reasoning for the shields was radiation, thought it was some wonky security system or a form of breach/explosion containment.

[Coidzor]

WoTC responded to this amongst 3.5 D&D fans at the GenCon before 4e was released. I believe the spokesperson said something along the lines of, and this is not a direct quote.

"While we thank the customers who spent money with us in the past, this is our current product offering, and we will support it for it's lifecycle. If those people no longer wish to spend their money with us then they are no longer our customers."

So what you're trying to say is that needlessly alienating people who are one's customers such that they cease to be customers is a good and desirable thing.

[Tiki Snakes]

As far as I know, nobody ever complains about writers redoing their old works (Terry Pratchett's remake of The Carpet People, for example).

Might this be partly because books are more durable than video cassettes?

Eh, it's not quiiite anologous.
Imagine instead, that Terry re-wrote the entirety of Good Omens, removing anything Neil Gaiman had a hand in and making any characters Neil designed look dumber, or perhaps screwing up their character-arcs?

People don't complain very often about Writers changing their earlier work because usually they do it better than Lucas has managed and the Original Trilogy was never his work alone.
The durability is probably also a factor. Refusing to release the originals on the currently available formats is as close as anyone can really get to physically taking your VHS away from you, after all. Books in comparison largely remain books.

[Kurgan]

You know, I LOST my original cassettes. Now I cannot watch the original movies without CGI that pops into view.


Um...I know on the dvd versions I got, the original versions came on a "bonus disk", so it should be easy enough to get hold of them.

On Star Wars itself, I like it mostly because of how open it is. Me, I'm more a fan of "Original Trilogy plus Zahn books", and that works for me, while others might be fans of other aspects of Star Wars.

Oh, and on topic, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF02VoDQSd0) SMBC skit just popped in my head from the conversations going on. [note: mild adult humor here]

[Tiki Snakes]

Um...I know on the dvd versions I got, the original versions came on a "bonus disk", so it should be easy enough to get hold of them.


Nope. Currently and specifically out of print. Nothing comparable included with the new spangly release.
Easy enough in this case means technically possible, but not through any benevolence on Lucas's case.

[Kurgan]

Nope. Currently and specifically out of print. Nothing comparable included with the new spangly release.
Easy enough in this case means technically possible, but not through any benevolence on Lucas's case.

Whoops, my bad. Also annoying, I know the original versions on the copy I have is the sole reason I went out and got them.

[TheArsenal]

I had forgotten that the reasoning for the shields was radiation, thought it was some wonky security system or a form of breach/explosion containment.

THIS is what bugs me about the EU:

"Ugh, george made ANOTHER stupid scene in his movies (What a shock)...How to make this make sense....hmmm. Uh...Force? No, BREACH CONTAINMNT....Will have to do..HUUUUUUUUUUUUUH:smallsigh:"

[Shadowbane]

THIS is what bugs me about the EU:

"Ugh, george made ANOTHER stupid scene in his movies (What a shock)...How to make this make sense....hmmm. Uh...Force? No, BREACH CONTAINMNT....Will have to do..HUUUUUUUUUUUUUH:smallsigh:"

Is there anything you actually enjoy, out of curiosity? I saw you in the LICD thread, I believe, and in the Dominic Deegan thread you are, like everyone else, a snarler, and now you're here, hating Star Wars. Do you like anything?

[hamishspence]

Eh, it's not quiiite anologous.
Imagine instead, that Terry re-wrote the entirety of Good Omens, removing anything Neil Gaiman had a hand in and making any characters Neil designed look dumber, or perhaps screwing up their character-arcs?

Can't think of any Special Edition changes that approach that though.

Two scenes that I can think of that involved old content being replaced with new content- Sebastian Shaw's Anakin being replaced with Hayden (no dialogue though) and the original Emperor in Empire Strikes Back being replaced with Ian McDermid.

Neither scene is big.

[Coidzor]

It is rather amusing that the decision was made to make piracy the only avenue for accessing that material considering our current level of technology.


Is there anything you actually enjoy, out of curiosity? I saw you in the LICD thread, I believe, and in the Dominic Deegan thread you are, like everyone else, a snarler, and now you're here, hating Star Wars. Do you like anything?

Hey now, only some of us are snarlers, most of us are snarkers! :smallcool: Hence the comedic strip slays. ...when we can muster up the energy and enthusiasm.

[TheArsenal]

Is there anything you actually enjoy, out of curiosity? I saw you in the LICD thread, I believe, and in the Dominic Deegan thread you are, like everyone else, a snarler, and now you're here, hating Star Wars. Do you like anything?

I like Cartoons, I like Terry Pratchet novels, I like mostly random movies that I like. I like star trek (Some of it), I like Sci fi, I like the original movies, I like cheesy 80s/ 90s films.

I don't HATE Star wars because it WAS part of my childhood, I feel sort of lied to when as an adult I look at the things that where marketed to me as a kid because I didn't know any better. Its taking advantage of kids. Thats sick.

[Weezer]

THIS is what bugs me about the EU:

"Ugh, george made ANOTHER stupid scene in his movies (What a shock)...How to make this make sense....hmmm. Uh...Force? No, BREACH CONTAINMNT....Will have to do..HUUUUUUUUUUUUUH:smallsigh:"

When did I *ever* mention the EU in that post. I had merely forgotten the in-movie stated reason for the shields.

You know, for someone who didn't particularly like SW universe you seem to care a lot about it and are getting quite worked up. Ever thought about just not reading the EU, it's quite easy to do so.

[TheArsenal]

When did I *ever* mention the EU in that post. I had merely forgotten the in-movie stated reason for the shields.


Either way its stupid. But I feel bad. Thier movies you enjoy. All im doing is pestering you.

Eh, sorry.

[Traab]

THIS is what bugs me about the EU:

"Ugh, george made ANOTHER stupid scene in his movies (What a shock)...How to make this make sense....hmmm. Uh...Force? No, BREACH CONTAINMNT....Will have to do..HUUUUUUUUUUUUUH:smallsigh:"

Well, what was HIS justification for a dozen layers of shields that all open and shut in sequence every so often? As a security system it sucks, itll buy a little time as you cant just sprint the entire length in a single cycle, but thats it. As radiation shielding its a stupid idea BECAUSE THE DAMN THINGS KEEP OPENING! So what the hell are they there for? The scene strikes me as a teenager slapping together a fight sequence and adding things entirely because, "It looks cool!"

[Alex Star]

So what you're trying to say is that needlessly alienating people who are one's customers such that they cease to be customers is a good and desirable thing.

No it's that a company and it's products will continue to evolve. And if people no longer are interested in the product that a company has to offer those people are no longer their customers.

[Coidzor]

No it's that a company and it's products will continue to evolve. And if people no longer are interested in the product that a company has to offer those people are no longer their customers.

Except you're arguing exactly that when you come in here and the first thing you do is start to argue that people do not have a right to their opinions, companies should never take heed of the feelings of their customers, and that customers who get burned have only themselves to blame. :smallannoyed:

[Trazoi]

Can't think of any Special Edition changes that approach that though.
Luke's scream as he falls in Empire Strikes Back Special Edition (cinema version). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaXgK5HRBjk) It was removed for the DVD release because it was that terrible.

Also apparently Lucas has inserted Darth Vader's big Noooooo from Revenge of the Sith into his climatic scene where he turns on the Emperor in Return of the Sith.

There's also the whole "Han shoots first" thing and his meeting with Jabba in A New Hope, and that extended song in Jabba's den in Return of the Jedi.

They aren't quite as bad as Lucas doing a whole purge of the movie, but they do ruin the characters and scenes and make you think what on earth Lucas was thinking. That's the thing about all these changes - I respected Lucas for making the original trilogy, but after he released the prequels and keeps making obviously bad changes to the originals it makes me question how much (or more accurately how little) of the original trilogy's magic was due to him and how much was the efforts of everyone else.

[hamishspence]

Additions- but most of the time not removals of other people's work.

Some scenes (Han and Jabba) were filmed, and in the novelization, but not in the original movie to keep the length down.

[Traab]

Additions- but most of the time not removals of other people's work.

Some scenes (Han and Jabba) were filmed, and in the novelization, but not in the original movie to keep the length down.

Yeah that kind of reminds me of raymond feists magician series. He released an authors preffered edition that added on a good 100k words to the two books that editors had made him cut to save room. It was even for similar reasons, basically, the books did so well that they let him go back and re release the books as he wanted them originally, because by then he was recognized as a fairly excellent author whose judgement on what does and does not suck is trustworthy. The new versions RULED! There was no greedo shoots first type stuff, just expanded dialouge that further explained what was going on, more character development, that, while not NEEDED, was still nice to have, and other little bits and pieces that added extra flavor to the stories.

[Trazoi]

Additions- but most of the time not removals of other people's work.
A movie isn't just about deciding what goes on the film but also what gets cut out. Good editing can make a film, so Lucas overriding that by ruining the pacing and character with extra scenes removes the work of the original editors.

And really, what does that scream in ESB do other than completely ruin the scene? How the heck did that seem like a good idea? :smallconfused:

[VanBuren]

You know, I LOST my original cassettes. Now I cannot watch the original movies without CGI that pops into view.

I wasn't aware that George Lucas was personally responsible for you losing your cassettes.

[Weezer]

I think that this scene from Spaced is quite relevant to the current discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJlgpozN31s&feature=related

[RabbitHoleLost]

Alex Star, you are lovely, lovely, lovely, and I appreciate your posts. I love it when people come into threads that I have trouble working my thoughts in to and explain it better than I ever could.

I dunno- maybe I'm too easy on Lucas, but, again, UNPOPULAR OPINION RABBIT- I like the prequels. I genuinely did. Perhaps its the nostalgia glasses, as I was, afterall, only a ten year old girl when Episode I came around, but Episode II is my favorite of the whole thing, right after Episode V (which probably holds its place because my first crush was, as I always bring up in SW threads, on Boba Fett when I was six years old).
The only time I can really remember being upset with him was the RetCon for my dear Mandos, and even then, I shrugged. His intellectual property to play with as he likes.

And, anyways, you can always find the older releases with the originals in places like Vintage Stock for cheap :smallsmile:

As for my previous post, "mauled" was an exaggeration and also a pun :smalltongue:
I meant that I hope he doesn't get harassed too much in his retirement, and that he can be a grumpy old man yelling at kids to get off his huge lawn in peace

[Coidzor]

As for my previous post, "mauled" was an exaggeration and also a pun :smalltongue:
I meant that I hope he doesn't get harassed too much in his retirement, and that he can be a grumpy old man yelling at kids to get off his huge lawn in peace

Pfft, the only way they'd get there would be if he purposefully imported them for skeet shooting. :smalltongue:

Ok, now that's an amusing mental image. :smallamused:

[Gnoman]

A movie isn't just about deciding what goes on the film but also what gets cut out. Good editing can make a film, so Lucas overriding that by ruining the pacing and character with extra scenes removes the work of the original editors.

And really, what does that scream in ESB do other than completely ruin the scene? How the heck did that seem like a good idea? :smallconfused:

Not all edits have anything to do with flow. Many are for length alone. IIRC, the Jabba scene was axed because it was little more than a rehash of the cantina scene, and nobody saw the point of introducing a character that would never appear again. (A few scenes with Luke on Tatooine were cut from the script purely for length as well.)

[Trazoi]

Not all edits have anything to do with flow. Many are for length alone. IIRC, the Jabba scene was axed because it was little more than a rehash of the cantina scene, and nobody saw the point of introducing a character that would never appear again. (A few scenes with Luke on Tatooine were cut from the script purely for length as well.)
I can't remember where that scene was in ANH, but I vaguely remember it slowing the film down precisely because it was a rehash of the cantina scene.

The biggest problem with that scene though was Han stepping on Jabba's tail. Han was being cocky when Jabba was a guy in a fur suit, but the tail step was suicidal. It was like a lot of the changes in the Special Edition - they were so focused on throwing their technical wizardry into the chosen scene that I don't think anyone took a step back and thought about how that change improved the movie as a whole.

[factotum]

George Lucas has never come to my house demanded my original VHS copies of Star Wars and then replaced them with the newer versions. He changed them and then it was entirely up to me to make those purchases myself.

And what happens when those tapes get so worn you can't watch them anymore? Or when your VCR breaks and you can't buy another one because they don't make them anymore? If you want to watch the films at all when that happens, you have to get the Special Editions because they're the only ones available now!

[MLai]

because back then Lucas was open to suggestions. He had incredible talent and imagination, but those skills had nothing to do with his inability to write dialogue.
I'm sorry but what. That would be a great example of "going too easy on Lucas." I mean, if you can't write dialogue, then what kind of writer are you? Incredible talent and imagination, what? I guess you can go make RPG manuals.

Great ideas? Look around on the internet, everybody has great ideas. Great ideas are a dime a dozen. It's all in the execution (and marketing/business sense).


(it would be so easy to make the prequels into really good movies with a few dialogue changes and at least one cast member replaced)
Nope. The crap dialogue is the most egregious affront which assaults your face, but it's hardly the only problem with the movies. Just TPM has a F-ton of gaping plot holes and logic traps. I'd point you to the hour-long video review but I can't remember where I saw it...


The biggest problem with that scene though was Han stepping on Jabba's tail. Han was being cocky when Jabba was a guy in a fur suit, but the tail step was suicidal.
Yes. I was thinking about how small and unintimidating Jabba suddenly looked. Did he have a growth spurt between Eps. IV and Eps. VI? What is he, a teenage kingpin? And it wasn't just size. The CGI Jabba wasn't the alien Marlon Brando Godfather... he was a shady car salesman in a kid's cartoon. And Han interacted with him exactly as if he is a car salesman in a kid's cartoon. How the F does this contribute to the trilogy? It should be a bonus scene on the disc, but not inserted into the movie as canon.

Note, I don't fault Harrison Ford for his acting tone. At the time the scene was filmed, he was talking to a greasy little guy in a fur suit. Nobody told him in Part III of the nonexistent trilogy, the greasy little 2-bit crook will transform into an 8-ft long giant abomination.

[Traab]

What I want to know is, where were jabbas guards during this talk? I mean, what the HELL can a giant slug do if han just decides he doesnt want to pay his bills and shoots him in the face? I doubt he was such a beloved crime lord that his minions would track han down to the ends of the earth to get revenge, and I doubt jabbas successor would care either. Hell, he might send han a thank you gift basket for the promotion!

[TheArsenal]

Nah,Jabba would shoot first. We wouldn't want anybody to think Hans heartless do we?:smalltongue:

[Traab]

Nah,Jabba would shoot first. We wouldn't want anybody to think Hans heartless do we?:smalltongue:

Shoot with what? Would he try to strangle han with his tongue?

[TheCountAlucard]

I'd point you to the hour-long video review but I can't remember where I saw it...RedLetterMedia. Also, he reviewed the other two movies.


What I want to know is, where were jabbas guards during this talk? I mean, what the HELL can a giant slug do if han just decides he doesnt want to pay his bills and shoots him in the face?Hutts are surprisingly-resilient. Even at point-blank range, one shot from a handheld blaster wouldn't be enough to kill Jabba, at which point Jabba could just crush Solo with his tail... or eat him.

He's done both to people in the past. :smalleek: At one point in the comics, him just hopping off his hover-sled was enough to paste the poor schlub he landed on. :smallyuk:

[TheArsenal]

A lazer blast at point blank range?= :smallsmile:
Chains to strangle by a human?=:smallfrown:

How does that make sense?

[TheCountAlucard]

A lazer blast at point blank range?= :smallsmile:
Chains to strangle by a human?=:smallfrown:

How does that make sense?Those operate by two very different principles. It's like how a person wearing a bulletproof vest is still vulnerable to being stabbed.

[pendell]

Those operate by two very different principles. It's like how a person wearing a bulletproof vest is still vulnerable to being stabbed.

I suspect Leia, as a force adept, was drawing on the force for strength when she strangled Jabba. I believe it unlikely a normal humanoid in the SW universe could have done so.

A blaster, by contrast, just has pure physical energy to go off of. A Hutt's hide is tough. There's no way to force amplify a blaster bolt the way force adepts can amplify their own physical strength as they can when performing a force jump.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[PrinceAquilaDei]

He's done both to people in the past. :smalleek: At one point in the comics, him just hopping off his hover-sled was enough to paste the poor schlub he landed on. :smallyuk:

Has someone replaced the title on your version of God Emperor of Dune? :smallcool:

[TheSummoner]

Nah,Jabba would shoot first. We wouldn't want anybody to think Hans heartless do we?:smalltongue:

Shoot with what?

A walkie-talkie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Hat)?

[hamishspence]

I suspect Leia, as a force adept, was drawing on the force for strength when she strangled Jabba. I believe it unlikely a normal humanoid in the SW universe could have done so.

I'm a bit doubtful- primarily because, being completely unaware she had the Force, she'd have to draw on it "instinctively" A big Strength boost is rather dramatic for that sort of thing.

According to the novels, it took ages of training from Luke before she managed to manifest Force powers.

[The Glyphstone]

RedLetterMedia. Also, he reviewed the other two movies.

Hutts are surprisingly-resilient. Even at point-blank range, one shot from a handheld blaster wouldn't be enough to kill Jabba, at which point Jabba could just crush Solo with his tail... or eat him.

He's done both to people in the past. :smalleek: At one point in the comics, him just hopping off his hover-sled was enough to paste the poor schlub he landed on. :smallyuk:

Pretty much. Hutts look fat and sluggish (:smallbiggrin:), but since their entire body is basically one giant muscle, they're incredibly tough and can move surprisingly fast when they want to. They just don't, because it's a cultural trait that the bigger, fatter, and more sedentary you are, the better.

[Talya]

A lazer blast at point blank range?= :smallsmile:
Chains to strangle by a human?=:smallfrown:

How does that make sense?

The original novellization (and forgive me, i haven't read it since I was a kid, so I forget the wording) described Leia concentrating, letting some power she didn't completely understand flow through her, and killing Jabba with her will as much as she did with the chain around his blubberous neck.

[hamishspence]

The wording:


With a strength beyond her own strength, she pulled. He bucked with his huge torso, nearly breaking her fingers, nearly yanking her arms from their sockets. He could get no leverage, his bulk was too unwieldy. But his sheer mass was almost enough to break any mere physical restraint.

Yet Leia's hold was not merely physical. She closed her eyes, closed out the pain in her hands, and focused all her life-force - and all it was able to channel - into squeezing the breath from the horrid creature.

She pulled, she sweated, she visualized the chain digging millimeter by millimeter deeper into Jabba's windpipe - as Jabba wildly thrashed, frantically twisted by this least expected of foes.

With a last reptilian gasp, Jabba tensed every muscle and lurched forward. His reptilian eyes began to bulge from their sockets as the chain tightened; his oily tongue flopped from his mouth. His thick tail twitched in spasms of effort, until he finally lay still- deadweight.

I must admit it does suggest instinctual Force-use.

[TheCountAlucard]

I must admit it does suggest instinctual Force-use.At bare minimum, she spent a Destiny Point on it. :smallamused:

[TheArsenal]

Or you know....The scene was removed because it makes no sense.

Ugh, EU. EVERYBODY is a freaking jedi. Leia couldn't JUST mustered the will, NO thats force power.

[Talya]

Or you know....The scene was removed because it makes no sense.

Ugh, EU. EVERYBODY is a freaking jedi. Leia couldn't JUST mustered the will, NO thats force power.

The movie novelization is not considered "EU." It's just an adaptation of the screenplay. Lucas himself wrote at least two of them (though not the one for RotJ, I can guarantee you he read it and rubberstamped his approval before it was published). It was before the idea of the Star Wars Expanded Universe was even conceptualized.

Everything in that text passage that one could see, visually, is visible in the movie. The movie doesn't give us the narration, however. What is written fits with what we see.

[Soras Teva Gee]

What I want to know is, where were jabbas guards during this talk? I mean, what the HELL can a giant slug do if han just decides he doesnt want to pay his bills and shoots him in the face? I doubt he was such a beloved crime lord that his minions would track han down to the ends of the earth to get revenge, and I doubt jabbas successor would care either. Hell, he might send han a thank you gift basket for the promotion!

So you're forgetting guards including Boba Fett that were in a circle around the whole situation? Han pulls a blaster he's dead.

[TheArsenal]

The movie novelization is not considered "EU." It's just an adaptation of the screenplay. Lucas himself wrote at least two of them (though not the one for RotJ). It was before the idea of the Star Wars Expanded Universe was even conceptualized.

Whatever. Thats the reason I don't think star wars is well suited for expension. or at least adding scenes that need to be retroactively altered to make sense.

What did adding that scene change?

Not just does it make Han a bit dumber but now leia is now a jedi and Huts are immune to lazers.

[Talya]

Not just does it make Han a bit dumber but now leia is now a jedi and Huts are immune to lazers.


Oh come now. (1) That scene was not added. It was in the original theatrical release. (2) The book was released prior to the movie, I had read it before I ever saw the movie in theaters back in 1982. (3) We already knew Leia would become a Jedi eventually. As much as I ignore most post-RotJ books, her becoming a Jedi was simply her destiny. "You're wrong, Leia. You have that power, too. In time, you will learn to use it as I have." (4) Tangental, but addressing something you said above: Hutts are not "immune to blasters." They just have several inches of thick blubber -- you need a bigger blaster or a lot more blaster bolts to penetrate it. Whales are not immune to arrows, but you could shoot a lot of arrows into a whale and not even injure it. Get a big harpoon gun.

[pendell]

At bare minimum, she spent a Destiny Point on it. :smallamused:

So does she get Dark Side Points for it? I would think Force Choke/Kill is a Dark Side power.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheArsenal]

Yeah, a gun, an ORDINARY gun can penetrate through walls, not to mention blubber.

Supercondensed plasma on the other hand, pff blubber TOTALY would protect you from that.

And it was REMOVED, with good riddance! Why add it in again?

Yes I know, but I find it kinda shlocky because the scene did not require the explanation of FORCE (Unlike 80% of the prequels) until that scene was added.

The Novelization probably ment her force of will, it does not have to be force.

[Philistine]

Or you know....The scene was removed because it makes no sense.

Ugh, EU. EVERYBODY is a freaking jedi. Leia couldn't JUST mustered the will, NO thats force power.

EU? EU? I cite the teachings of the great philosopher, Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Leia being strong in the Force is explicitly stated on-screen in RotJ. That's not just movie-canon, it's Original Trilogy canon. It doesn't get much less "E" than that in this particular fictional "U."

[TheArsenal]

Well Im not sure what the EU is or isn't.

Are the Novelizations EU?

What? Ugh.

Well can anybody tell me is the force TRULY a nuetral thing? I mean , I HAVE read the EU (Some of it) and I do have like this collecters book that condenses star wars history and stuff. No point in time does the force realy do anything good.

its either the emotionless stupid jedi

Or the power hungry angry and insane sith.

[Talya]

And it was REMOVED, with good riddance! Why add it in again?


Are we discussing the same thing? The scene where Leia strangles Jabba was in every theatrical, VHS and DVD release of that movie ever made. If you saw RotJ without it, my guess is you watched it on network television where they edit out some scenes for length and commercial room.

[WalkingTarget]

Are we discussing the same thing? The scene where Leia strangles Jabba was in every theatrical, VHS and DVD release of that movie ever made. If you saw RotJ without it, my guess is you watched it on network television where they edit out some scenes for length and commercial room.

I think the scene added to the first film between Jabba and Han was what was meant there (the rest of the post being about blaster-immunity or whatever).

[TheArsenal]

I think the scene added to the first film between Jabba and Han was what was meant there (the rest of the post being about blaster-immunity or whatever).

I meant that.

[Talya]

I think the scene added to the first film between Jabba and Han was what was meant there (the rest of the post being about blaster-immunity or whatever).

That scene was removed from the original because Lucas didn't want Jabba to be human, but didn't have the budget to put a really neat alien in Jabba's place. If he could have done it the way he wanted, it never would have been cut.

I'm not philosophicly opposed to the change of adding it in --I consider it original material, unlike "Prepare my star destroyer for my arrival" in ESB -- except it didn't look quite right...especially when Han steps on Jabba's tail.

I still am upset they never found a way to add the conversation that was filmed between Biggs Darklighter and Luke on Tattooine when Biggs tells Luke he's joining the Rebellion instead of continuing on in the Imperial flight academy. I think Lucas said that footage was lost, or in too bad shape to restore...

[Xondoure]

I meant that.

Well he doesn't actually shoot him. So the Hutts being immune is still EU.

And the EU is very contrived. Every author putting their own spin plus power creep means that every character seen in the films is some sort of avatar of their race / profession the force is now no longer about eastern philosophy and instead has become about law versus chaos and "balance" stopped meaning harmony with the universe and started meaning you weren't as stuck up as those uppity jedi but also weren't an axe murderer. Not to say there isn't a few gems but they are the exception, not the rule.

[The Glyphstone]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hutt


A Hutt's hide was thick enough to take several blaster shots before vital organs were reached, permitting the Hutt ample time to pulverize would-be assassins who came unprepared to deal with such a fleshy obstacle. The slimy coating of sweat and mucus protected them from burns.

So they're far from 'immune to blasters'. Their blubber is just so thick and tough, along with the ablative layer of slime, that they can smash an assassin before taking enough blaster shots to suffer fatal damage. Snipe a Hutt and you're fine, though it'll again take multiple rounds to put him down even with headshots.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, a gun, an ORDINARY gun can penetrate through walls, not to mention blubber.

Weird thing is, Honey Badgers are resistant to being shot, one actually apparently has to either be using ridiculously high caliber weapons or hit them in the head just right to drop them. Actually, Grizzlies have something similar going on if I recall what my friend's father recounted from poaching them for food. Then again, it could me more like shooting an elephant, if you've ever read Orwell.

Of course, the fact that hutts are resistant to blasters just further reinforces the elephant in the room that high mass, exploding bullets are the best armament in the galaxy.

[Talya]

Weird thing is, Honey badgers are resistant to being shot, one actually apparently has to either be using ridiculously high caliber weapons or hit them in the head just right to drop them.


Yeah. Most gunshots only anger a creature something large like...oh...say...a bear.

[TheArsenal]

At point blank range with something thats essentialy superconcentrated light?

HES NEAR HIS HEAD! And im pretty sure that slow lumbering Jaba wouldn't be able to react fast enough if Han placed the gun directly in front of jabas HUGE EYEBALLS.

[Talya]

At point blank range with something thats essentialy superconcentrated light?

(1) As long as one was within focusing range, point blank wouldn't make a laser bolt substantially more powerful. There's no momentum lost with distance travelled through an atmosphere on a laser, although particulate deflection and loss of beam cohesion would eventually cause it to start losing power. (2) Blasters are not lasers, rendering both your point and my first point irrelevant. Blaster bolts travel slower than bullets, not as fast as light.


HES NEAR HIS HEAD! And im pretty sure that slow lumbering Jaba wouldn't be able to react fast enough if Han placed the gun directly in front of jabas HUGE EYEBALLS.

Yay! More opportunity for itemized points.
(1) Han's heavy blaster did 5d6 damage per shot. Jabba's stamina was about 8d6. The odds of it even wounding him on any given shot were low. (Yay, West End Games!) (2) Removing the gaming aspect, if the gun is not big enough, it doesn't matter where you shoot them or from what range, it's not getting through their slime/hide/head. Shoot a sperm whale point blank with a handgun. Even if the bullet penetrates 3 feet deep, it's not hitting anything vital. (3) From another perspective, shooting Greedo doesn't cause Han any real grief. Greedo was nothing but a greedy opportunist attempting to cash in on a bounty. Greedo was also threatening Han's life, right now. Jabba was not. Killing a Hutt during a peaceful negotiation? There's a good way to get every one of the fat slugs on Nal Hutta and Sleheyron putting out a contract on your life...assuming he even got out of Mos Eisley.

[TheArsenal]

Except he isn't the size of a whale. If he was SURE id buy it. But he isn't. Hes pretty big (and still smaller then his size in the return of the jedipedibedis). But hes not nearly big enough to look like hed be immune to shots. Im pretty sure his eyelids aren't as thick as the rest of his body and:

I was going by the information I got out of the movies. Blasters look like they can penetrate armor.

But you are generaly right I gues. I lack the knowledge of the EU to know how the other huts would react.

Id think theyd be happy. "Yay we can now scramble for power."

[The Glyphstone]

Rocks thrown by teddy bears can also penetrate armor. The movies aren't entirely reliable on stuff like that.


If Jabba died:
(A) One of Jabba's relatives would pick up the reins.
or more likely
(B) His criminal empire would shatter, and all the other Hutts and their own criminal empires would snatch up the pieces.


The EU is far from all bad. For every Travissalorian and Superweapon of the Week, there's a Thrawn and a Death Star. More relevant to the topic, the EU brought us Huttlets, who are adorable.

(in fact, in the EU, (A) happened - Jabba's parent Zorba attempted to take over Jabba's holdings with a forged will that disowned Jabba's own son Rotta).

[TheArsenal]

The only EU I REALY hate is The force Unleashed (Is THAT cannon?)

Its like if they took citizen Kane and turned him into a cop fighting with bad guys and he gets the girl in the end and has a bazooka named "Roseboom".

Now Star wars isn't as good as CK, but im talking about it tonaly. A mysterious and interesting mystical energy is turned into BEAM SPAM! EXTREME LAZORS!

[hamishspence]

It's as canonical as any other SW novel- which is to say, it can be retconned by later sources- and movies (even early ones) always override books (even late ones) if there's a direct contradiction.

The novelization clarifies some things though (he isn't pulling down a Star Destroyer, but guiding one that's already crashing- and that puts an immense strain on him.

On "getting the girl" - not in the first game. Maybe the second.

[Mewtarthio]

But you are generaly right I gues. I lack the knowledge of the EU to know how the other huts would react.

Id think theyd be happy. "Yay we can now scramble for power."

Crime bosses generally like to discourage people from randomly killing crime bosses. They might not mourn Jabba, and they might even celebrate his passing, but they'll still want to kill Han on general principle.

[hamishspence]

And there's also the Hutts considering themselves a superior being to humans- hence a human killing one is, in their eyes- offensive.

[The Glyphstone]

The only EU I REALY hate is The force Unleashed (Is THAT cannon?)

Its like if they took citizen Kane and turned him into a cop fighting with bad guys and he gets the girl in the end and has a bazooka named "Roseboom".

Now Star wars isn't as good as CK, but im talking about it tonaly. A mysterious and interesting mystical energy is turned into BEAM SPAM! EXTREME LAZORS!

Tastes are tastes, but I personally think that a cheesy Citizen Kane remake/spoof as an over-the-top action hero would be hilarious.

[TheArsenal]

Tastes are tastes, but I personally think that a cheesy Citizen Kane remake/spoof as an over-the-top action hero would be hilarious.

It would. So I guess I set a bad example. But that WOULD be super awesome.

[Soras Teva Gee]

That scene was removed from the original because Lucas didn't want Jabba to be human, but didn't have the budget to put a really neat alien in Jabba's place. If he could have done it the way he wanted, it never would have been cut.

I'm not philosophicly opposed to the change of adding it in --I consider it original material, unlike "Prepare my star destroyer for my arrival" in ESB -- except it didn't look quite right...especially when Han steps on Jabba's tail.

Yeah I was aware of the scene before seeing it in theaters when the Special Edition came out. Its right there in the novels for over twenty years for anyone to find.

And the tail thing was actually forced on them by the footage. Harrison Ford walks around the guy they got play Jabba. A Hutt has very different dimensions so it would have resulted in the Han walking through Jabba had they not.

Scrap a big deleted scene because of a fixable technical glitch or create a workaround, yeah I know which one I would have picked.


I still am upset they never found a way to add the conversation that was filmed between Biggs Darklighter and Luke on Tattooine when Biggs tells Luke he's joining the Rebellion instead of continuing on in the Imperial flight academy. I think Lucas said that footage was lost, or in too bad shape to restore...

I've seen pictures of the footage, but that was waaaaay back I might believe that. Most likely it was never kept very well anyways being scrapped pretty early in production. Supposedly even the final cut material was badly degrading which got the Special Editions started.

But even then everything involving Luke before picking up the droids was cut by conscious choice. Because Lucas decided the droids should be the focus point. Something I actually agree with, the movie is better with less of Luke there. So it would probably never be put in.

[Boci]

Does EU stand for Expanded Universe? Because I'm pretty sure the European Union wasn't around back then.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Have you read the thread? Because you might notice we're not exactly hurling flaming feces at people for having like the prequels. :smallannoyed:

I have, I just thought phrasing it that way would add an element of humor to it. :smallredface:

[Welf]

These things being said I would like to address two very common things I hear about Star Wars.

1.) You don't own anything. (If I have to read another absurd argument about how "Star Wars" or any other piece of media belongs to the fans I think I'm going to be sick.)

You do not own Star Wars any more than I own Coca-Cola because I drink their product, or Taco Bell because I eat their food, or Dungeons and Dragons because I play their RPG. And rest assured I have spent far more money in my life on Coke, Taco Bell, and D&D than I have on Star Wars though I can legitimately say that I like Star Wars more.

Star Wars is the legitimate intellectual property of George Lucas, and if you don't like it, or what he decides to do with it then guess what? GO FIND SOMETHING ELSE.

2.) You don't HAVE to like it, and no one else HAS to care.

George Lukas owns Star Wars legally, but that's it. He hasn't created Star Wars, or made it good. He had the initial vision, and hired the right people. And those people - the actors, editors, and directors - made it good and created the original Star Wars as it is. We shouldn't be to soft on Lukas. He showered himself for decades in the worship of fanboys for an accomplishment that wasn't his. I don't think he ever complained when fanboys praised him for Irving Kershner's directing, but now he is grumpy because the criticise for what her personally did. Lukas is enormously rich and can do whatever he wants, and he does. If that means to devalue Harrison Ford's acting with the Greebo shot first thing, or ruining Richard Marquands directing with adding a "Nooo" to the death scene of the Emporer, then he is legally allowed to do so. And we are legally allowed to criticize him as much as possible, so we can do that. And since it's established that only legal guidelines are our boundaries, we should do so. He doesn't have to listen.


BTw: can anybody imagine Lukas doing an artsy film? Doesn't that require a certain amound of creativity and directing and writing skills.

Also: sigh, I just wrote a hate post. That's bad. :smallfrown:

[hamishspence]

Does EU stand for Expanded Universe? Because I'm pretty sure the European Union wasn't around back then.
It does in this context.

[Soras Teva Gee]

BTw: can anybody imagine Lukas doing an artsy film? Doesn't that require a certain amound of creativity and directing and writing skills.

Also: sigh, I just wrote a hate post. That's bad. :smallfrown:

I know we should love and tolerate..... but its really hard when talking about George Lucas.

He's the Stan Lee of movies.

[Aotrs Commander]

I thought Han treading on Jabba in that scene was hilarious, meself...

Mind you, I think we've already established my credibility in that department... I mean, my favourite Jedi is Asohka Tano (and the only who's (probable) death I morn apart from maybe Mace Windu - and he kinda brought that one on himself, right at the end there...)

[Talya]

I mean, my favourite Jedi is Asohka Tano (and the only who's (probable) death I morn apart from maybe Mace Windu - and he kinda brought that one on himself, right at the end there...)

There is no way she dies. My prediction: She's going to become more and more concerned by Anakin's instability, fear and anger and end up leaving the order as a padawan, going into hiding somewhere in the outer rim, turning up 25 years later in the EU as a middle-aged jedi padawan who was missed in the purge.

[hamishspence]

She has a few moments of excessive aggression herself, it must be said.

Going back to the original topic- does the announcement of no more big movies, impinge at all on the TV series?

I wouldn't think so.

[Aotrs Commander]

There is no way she dies. My prediction: She's going to become more and more concerned by Anakin's instability, fear and anger and end up leaving the order as a padawan, going into hiding somewhere in the outer rim, turning up 25 years later in the EU as a middle-aged jedi padawan who was missed in the purge.

While sadly I suspect you may be right, I think it's a pity. Because, much as I like her, and am not a fan of tragedy, seeing her fighting Anakin to the death in the purge at the Temple would be such an enormously powerful scene (if done right), that I'd prefer it so a cheap cop-out.

(I mean, they've waaay stretched the "people in the prequel era who hid like Yoda for X decades on an obscure planet", to disbelief point, double especially so with Jedi. I mean, it's like 95% of the Jedi Order went into hiding or something. Luke was the last Jedi my boney arse...! Not one of the EU's stronger points at all, that.)

It would have the potential to be even more poignant that Anakin and Obi-Wan was (or a hell of a lot more, depending on how poignant your personal opinion on that was, I guess!)

[Trazoi]

And the tail thing was actually forced on them by the footage. Harrison Ford walks around the guy they got play Jabba. A Hutt has very different dimensions so it would have resulted in the Han walking through Jabba had they not.

Scrap a big deleted scene because of a fixable technical glitch or create a workaround, yeah I know which one I would have picked.
But they didn't fix the scene. The scene was to explain Han's motivation for why he was desperate to repay Jabba, and it doesn't work if Jabba is shown to be a complete push-over.

That's why the Special Editions annoy me - most of the additions are less about "what can we do to better tell the story" and "hey, look what we can do with our computer!" It's also why Jar Jar Binks is so annoying in TPM - his animation and mannerisms always screams "pay attention to me! pay attention to me!", even when he's not speaking.

[Talya]

I'm fully aware of the technical reasons why they had Han step on Jabba's tail. I'm even okay with that. I just don't think it worked very well.

But I'm completely okay with he scene itself...and even applaud the idea of adding it back in again. If it were the only flaw in the rereleased "Special Edition" versions, I'd probably embrace it. However...



That's why the Special Editions annoy me - most of the additions are less about "what can we do to better tell the story" and "hey, look what we can do with our computer!" It's also why Jar Jar Binks is so annoying in TPM - his animation and mannerisms always screams "pay attention to me! pay attention to me!", even when he's not speaking.

This I agree with completely. Sadly, I think it's the real reason the scene was added back into the movie. Given a choice between all the changes, or none of them, I'd pick none. If the Jabba scene was all they added, I'd probably not be complaining at all.

[Gnoman]

(I mean, they've waaay stretched the "people in the prequel era who hid like Yoda for X decades on an obscure planet", to disbelief point, double especially so with Jedi. I mean, it's like 95% of the Jedi Order went into hiding or something. Luke was the last Jedi my boney arse...! Not one of the EU's stronger points at all, that.)



While I don't read the comics due to budget (so this may be the disconnect) I'm only aware of a few Jedi that escaped the Purge at all, let alone into the ABY era. (in fact, other than Joruus, the only three post-Yavin Jedi survivors are Castilla, Vergege, and that dog-thing from Junior Jedi Knights. There were a few Star Wars Tales ones, IIRC, but those were non-canon.)

[Tiki Snakes]

They all survived the Purge. Especially the ones who appeared to have died.
And the ones we 'know' who died later, because we saw their force-ghosts? They're totally just running around covered in flourescent blue paint.

Jedi never die. They just go missing in action.

[turkishproverb]

Does EU stand for Expanded Universe? Because I'm pretty sure the European Union wasn't around back then.

That was so horribly funny that you win a cookie. :smallbiggrin:

[Philistine]

I think the scene added to the first film between Jabba and Han was what was meant there (the rest of the post being about blaster-immunity or whatever).

Except that Leia wasn't in that scene, so at least the complaints about her getting Force powers in the EU can't be about that.

***

The "Jabba comes to Mos Eisley" scene in neo-ANH was the change that bugged me the most when the Special Editions came out. (To be fair, that's because I didn't notice Greedo opening fire in the cantina scene until a repeat viewing several years later. :smallredface:) The FX just were not good enough to cut it in a mixed FX/practical shot, and the (mis-colored and ridiculously tiny, given what we know he'll look like just a couple of years later in-universe) CGI Jabba stood out like a sore thumb. The dialogue merely rehashed the cantina scene (including a couple of lines which were repeated almost word-for-word) and didn't add anything new. And worst of all, digital Jabba wasn't scary. That's killer.

Not that I hated all the changes. It was nice to see the conversation between Luke and Biggs on Yavin, and some of the pure FX shots were lovely - the Millennium Falcon's approach to Bespin comes to mind. But some just felt like padding, like the extended musical number in Jabba's palace; others were plain silly, like the spontaneous, instantaneous, Galaxy-wide celebration at the end of neo-RotJ; and this one scene didn't work for me on any level.

[MLai]

I'm also not intrinsically opposed to the Han-Jabba scene. Because any additional footage with young Harrison Ford as Han Solo is ofc awesome. We can even say there's no better way to do the CGI, such as Jabba sidling out of the way so that Han didn't step on his tail.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Jabba is not intimidating in that scene, cannot be intimidating in that scene, and therefore during fridge time, after the initial fangasm has subsided, you'd notice that it does not contribute to the trilogy.

What it should have been, would be "bonus scenes" on the disc, that you can select to watch from the menu, or even optionally insert into the movie when watching on DVD. But it should be a choice.

The Luke and Emperor screaming bits just defy belief. This man not only can't write/direct romantic dialogue, he's also a complete hack at writing/directing anything remotely human. :smallfurious:

[Soras Teva Gee]

What it should have been, would be "bonus scenes" on the disc, that you can select to watch from the menu, or even optionally insert into the movie when watching on DVD. But it should be a choice.

This amuses me because the Special Editions predate the practical DVD era. The tech existed but wasn't widespread. You saw a theatrical release and bought them on VHS thank you very much.

Dang young'uns.

[Aotrs Commander]

While I don't read the comics due to budget (so this may be the disconnect) I'm only aware of a few Jedi that escaped the Purge at all, let alone into the ABY era. (in fact, other than Joruus, the only three post-Yavin Jedi survivors are Castilla, Vergege, and that dog-thing from Junior Jedi Knights. There were a few Star Wars Tales ones, IIRC, but those were non-canon.)

Ventriss survived too, somehow, I recall reading on one of the wikis1, and they also used that particualr plot point back in one of the computer games. The latter may not be canon (and was pre-episode III in any case), but the point still stands, they've way over-used the device.



1Though, on checking, her final fate is not recorded. But as the Clone Wars has been playing VERY fast and loose with existant EU canon of late (to the point one is almost beginning to feel the faintest tinge of sympathy for Karen Traviss. Almost.) who knows, they might change it again. (Though at current rate of divergeance increases, I half expect to see the Clone Wars go right through Revenge of the Sith and completely change the events...!)

[hamishspence]

1Though, on checking, her final fate is not recorded. But as the Clone Wars has been playing VERY fast and loose with existant EU canon of late (to the point one is almost beginning to feel the faintest tinge of sympathy for Karen Traviss. Almost.) who knows, they might change it again. (Though at current rate of divergeance increases, I half expect to see the Clone Wars go right through Revenge of the Sith and completely change the events...!)

The novelists have started to incorporate some of the details from the later series- like Darth Maul's being a native of Dathomir, which gets brought up in the novel Darth Plagueis (we see him being handed over to Sidious as a baby).

[JediSoth]

the name Coruscant for the capital planet, first appeared in the EU.

Also, Dash Rendar's ship from Shadows of the Empire made it into A New Hope during an early Mos Eisley, scene. But it's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it thing, so it may not count.

I enjoyed the prequels, but I agree they're not up to the same standard the OT is. Many of the Special Edition changes also don't bother me; just the ones that affect the story/characterization. Sadly, I don't think I'll ever get to see my preferred version of the OT, so I'll have to be satisfied with a cleaned-up anamorphic Blu-Ray version of the theatrical OT, which I think has a chance of being released sometime before I die. Not a good chance, but a chance nonetheless.

I stopped reading EU stuff with the NJO stuff. It was too grimdark for my feeling of what Star Wars should be. I've pretty much gotten rid of most of my EU books unless they're pre-NJO written by Zahn, or Stackpole (and I kept the Allston X-Wing stuff, too). I also hung onto the film novelizations for completeness. I like much of what I've seen of The Clone Wars, so far. I thought the prequels should've focused far more on that then it did.

Fortunately, for the tabletop RPG, I can set my own continuity and enjoy my perfect Star Wars EU. :)

[Talya]

Sadly, I don't think I'll ever get to see my preferred version of the OT, so I'll have to be satisfied with a cleaned-up anamorphic Blu-Ray version of the theatrical OT, which I think has a chance of being released sometime before I die. Not a good chance, but a chance nonetheless.
There are some fan edits that may change your mind. Amazingly, the production value of the changes made surpass what Lucasfilm was able to do...

[Philistine]

Ventriss survived too, somehow, I recall reading on one of the wikis1, and they also used that particualr plot point back in one of the computer games. The latter may not be canon (and was pre-episode III in any case), but the point still stands, they've way over-used the device.



1Though, on checking, her final fate is not recorded. But as the Clone Wars has been playing VERY fast and loose with existant EU canon of late (to the point one is almost beginning to feel the faintest tinge of sympathy for Karen Traviss. Almost.) who knows, they might change it again. (Though at current rate of divergeance increases, I half expect to see the Clone Wars go right through Revenge of the Sith and completely change the events...!)

It plays fast and loose with its own timeline too, as far as I can tell, presenting incidents so out-of-sequence that I'm not sure I'd notice if they did retcon out RotS. Assuming they haven't already. :smallwink:

[Gnoman]

I stopped reading EU stuff with the NJO stuff. It was too grimdark for my feeling of what Star Wars should be.

Since this is a complaint that I see a lot, could you explain how the NJO is more "grimdark" than, to name a few examples, destroying a densely populated planet as a warning shot, the Lusankya killing millions as it blasted out of Coruscant, the Krytos bioweapon, or keeping an entire planet uninhabitable just so you can continue to enslave a race of supersoldiers? Apart, of course, from the characters not being in the middle of it.

This is not a criticism, mind. It is simply something that has always bugged me about that common complaint.

[TheArsenal]

Since this is a complaint that I see a lot, could you explain how the NJO is more "grimdark" than, to name a few examples, destroying a densely populated planet as a warning shot, the Lusankya killing millions as it blasted out of Coruscant, the Krytos bioweapon, or keeping an entire planet uninhabitable just so you can continue to enslave a race of supersoldiers?

Tonally. You can have a scene of a destroying planet OR you can have a scene with details into how each person on the planet slowly burns to death (Because you can have the lazer do that instead) and proceed to canabalize each other as food runs out.

Generaly the same thing but different tone.