Wu-Jen vs Wizard

[Suddo]

So I know wizard is better but I'm thinking of making a gish and might use Wu-Jen.
So, I was wondering if someone had compiled a list of things you'll miss, namely spells, by using a Wu-Jen and things you get. I know of a couple of high level spells (Body out of Body and Giant Size) but I may not get that far in the campaign as its from level 1.
We aren't going to be using alternate class features so I'm looking for spells.

Thanks.

[Chronos]

I think it's mostly not any single spell, but the sheer number of them. Wizards have oodles of spells available, and it's not hard to get a great many in your book. So even if a spell is only useful in a small number of specific situations, if you know about the situation in advance, you can still have it.

[Zombulian]

Funny you posted this because I just recently decided to compile a list of all Wu Jen spells. I will alert you when done.

Zomb.

[Manateee]

It gets kind of wonky because the SpC just kind of handwaves elemental spells into the Wu Jen list. I don't think it's unreasonable to treat other sources similarly, but it makes a big chunk of the Wu Jen's expansion fall into a group-by-group sort of a deal.

For a gish Wu Jen, you're probably looking at Body Outside Body, Giant Size, Lightning Blade and Dancing Blade (especially if you can scrounge some minions). Then maybe grubbing through the SpC and other spell-heavy splats and asking your DM in a really nice voice.

[Tr011]

Get UMD as a class skill and max it, or just get mass items with that missing spells.

[Manateee]

Actually, if you can use Oriental Adventures, there's Spirit Binding. That plus Elemental Weird is an 18th level sorcerer as a 9th 11th level class feature.

[Zombulian]

Personally I don't think it's much of a stretch for Wu Jen to get all spells with elemental flavor (besides air) just like SpC said. I think in the list I'm gonna make I will include all of them. This... could take a while.

[gorfnab]

Transcend Mortality Wu-Jen spell (CM) + Jade Phoenix Mage' Emerald Immolation ability (ToB) = :biggrin:

[Venger]

Transcend Mortality Wu-Jen spell (CM) + Jade Phoenix Mage' Emerald Immolation ability (ToB) = :biggrin:

no, no:

Transcend Mortality, but earlier, you cast Pact of Return and said: I will die when Transcend Mortality burns me out. Wear 2 rings of counterspelling with greater dispel magic in it if anyone tries to dispel either spell. win D&D

[Randomguy]

For a gish type, the biggest thing you're missing is wraithstrike. Wu Jen get a few good low level spells of their own, like lightning blade, magnetism and metal skin, but the real gems are at higher levels. This is only for gishing; for other wizardy things like battlefield control wizards have the upper hand.

Try Wu-Jen 5/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4 would probably be the best build, unless you really want uncanny dodge and don't mind not getting 9's, in which case another level of warblade could go just about anywhere.

What's pact of return from?

[Prime32]

Transcend Mortality Wu-Jen spell (CM) + Jade Phoenix Mage' Emerald Immolation ability (ToB) = :biggrin:While you're at it, take the Death Throes feat from Savage Species so that you double-explode.

[Suddo]

For a gish type, the biggest thing you're missing is wraithstrike. Wu Jen get a few good low level spells of their own, like lightning blade, magnetism and metal skin, but the real gems are at higher levels. This is only for gishing; for other wizardy things like battlefield control wizards have the upper hand.

Try Wu-Jen 5/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4 would probably be the best build, unless you really want uncanny dodge and don't mind not getting 9's, in which case another level of warblade could go just about anywhere.
And yes I'll be Maxing UMD via the Human Paragon 2 ability so I could do Wu-Jen and anything I miss just get from a local wizard. I spaced that idea.

What's pact of return from?

No ToB. I love it but my DM doesn't care for it, I've never particularly heard why I tend not to argue with simplifying the DM's work load.
My ideal build is:
Human Paragon 1/Fighter 1/Caster 1/ Human Paragon 2/ Caster 2/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight X
I like the Wu-Jen and I like its higher level spells but I don't want to miss out on something that I totally space on, like a teleport spell that is awesome or something.

Oh and @Zomb: Please shot me a link when you are done. And as a suggestion if you allow anything with an element a Wu-Jen is about like SpC says then I'd suggest putting asteriks (*) next to the ones that aren't specifically Wu-Jen and are outside of the SpC where the idea is mentioned. It won't matter much to me as I'll only be using PHB1 and SpC for spells (CArc if it has anything else too). I know Celerity or whatever that one spell that allows Wizard to auto-win would be banned by my DM so somethings I'm not that worried about.

[Zaydos]

Transcend Mortality Wu-Jen spell (CM) + Jade Phoenix Mage' Emerald Immolation ability (ToB) = :biggrin:


While you're at it, take the Death Throes feat from Savage Species so that you double-explode.

Throw in the Death Throes spell from Spell Compendium (though how you get a personal only Lv 5, Cleric, Sor/Wiz spell is beyond me). Also Final Strike (the name of the feat) requires a subtype ;_;

As for Pact of Return it has the same problems as Death Throes (being a Lv 7 Cleric only spell).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Transcend Mortality Wu-Jen spell (CM) + Jade Phoenix Mage' Emerald Immolation ability (ToB) = :biggrin:

This is very much lulz worthy I love it, but that is end of the end game, assuming you aren't heading into epic.

On a more practical basis, wizards will have more spells (and spell options, sadly) simply because of all of their source book bonuses. Spell Compendium has a line in the front about adding spells to the Wu Jen spell list, but that is heavily DM dependent (outside of the reprints from Complete Arcane, of course.)

The Jen Phoenix Mage, is solid, though. Something like Crusader 1/Wu Jen 4/JPM X/Abjurant Champion Y is hard to beat, simply because it has access to three very hard to top spells: Body Outside Body, Giant Size, and the aforementioned Transcend Mortality.

A while back, I made a really wonky human-based Wu Jen Jade Phoenix Mage that combined with a two level dip into Archmage, generating clones with SLAs (Giant Size and Transcend Mortality) who would blow both open being "created" and proceed to kick butt via maneuvers.

EDIT: Losing out on ToB is rough, especially considering how much the default fluff of the Wu Jen and Jade Phoenix Mage mesh together.

Rough outline Human Paragon 1/Wu Jen 1/Human Paragon +2/Wu Jen +2/Eldritch Knight X (using feats listed below to get full martial weapon proficiencies)/Abjurant Champion 5 (taken ASAP)/Eldritch Knight +Y. If you feel like lighting three feats on fire to get into Archmage, you can get your choice of Body Outside Body, Transcend Mortality, and/or Giant Size as SLAs. It can be skipped, but it is an option to get your "spells" unto your clones.

First level feats go to Able Learner (Races of Destiny) and either Otherwordly or Militia (both Player's Guide to Faerun).

EDIT2: As for casting and spells, look to most any wizard gish guide. There is a lot of overlap, spellwise. Obviously, you won't have all of the same tricks, but you those that are shared, use.

[Suddo]

This is very much lulz worthy I love it, but that is end of the end game, assuming you aren't heading into epic.

On a more practical basis, wizards will have more spells (and spell options, sadly) simply because of all of their source book bonuses. Spell Compendium has a line in the front about adding spells to the Wu Jen spell list, but that is heavily DM dependent (outside of the reprints from Complete Arcane, of course.)

The Jen Phoenix Mage, is solid, though. Something like Crusader 1/Wu Jen 4/JPM X/Abjurant Champion Y is hard to beat, simply because it has access to three very hard to top spells: Body Outside Body, Giant Size, and the aforementioned Transcend Mortality.

A while back, I made a really wonky human-based Wu Jen Jade Phoenix Mage that combined with a two level dip into Archmage, generating clones with SLAs (Giant Size and Transcend Mortality) who would blow both open being "created" and proceed to kick butt via maneuvers.

EDIT: Losing out on ToB is rough, especially considering how much the default fluff of the Wu Jen and Jade Phoenix Mage mesh together.

Rough outline Human Paragon 1/Wu Jen 1/Human Paragon +2/Wu Jen +2/Eldritch Knight X (using feats listed below to get full martial weapon proficiencies)/Abjurant Champion 5 (taken ASAP)/Eldritch Knight +Y. If you feel like lighting three feats on fire to get into Archmage, you can get your choice of Body Outside Body, Transcend Mortality, and/or Giant Size as SLAs. It can be skipped, but it is an option to get your "spells" unto your clones.

First level feats go to Able Learner (Races of Destiny) and either Otherwordly or Militia (both Player's Guide to Faerun).

EDIT2: As for casting and spells, look to most any wizard gish guide. There is a lot of overlap, spellwise. Obviously, you won't have all of the same tricks, but you those that are shared, use.

I know about militia but you want to talk about DM specific. Its regional setting specific and, in my opinion, is kind of cheesy. I mean it removes almost all the flavor of the Gish and it becomes Full Wizard with a high BAB and a bucket of abilities. I know I'm doing almost the same thing with 1 level of Fighter but a feat versus a level is a big difference.
I think Wu-Jen might be the way to go depending on how many ACFs I get to use. I mean if I get the 10ft teleport on being attacked and fighter feat I might have to do wizard otherwise. Plus I can always pick up a wand of wizard spell X from the local magic mart much easier than I can Giant Size or something.