[PF] Dimensional Agility chain: Not as cool as you'd think

[Cieyrin]

For all the hype for these, I'm not really seeing the big deal. "But they make Monks awesome!" I hear. But, Monks, regardless of Archetype, don't get Abundant Step till 12th, meaning they can't start taking the chain till 13th. The feat everyone wants is Dimensional Dervish, which is the 3rd feat in the chain, which a Monk can't get to till 17th, long after anyone gives a damn about full attacks. None of the chain are [Combat] feats, so you can't get them quickly by dipping Fighter or some other source of bonus feats.

It's not much better for other likely targets, as Magi don't get Dim Door till 10th level, meaning they're only 2 levels ahead of Monks, as they can start at 11th, meaning arriving at Dimensional Dervish at 15th. Horizon Walkers can achieve Dimension Door at 9th, which gets 'em going by 13th, with the added bonus that they're full BAB to really take advantage of it.

Pretty much the way to get it online while it's really relevant is to be a full caster, who are pretty much not good at it, given they generally have Poor BAB. The sole exception is Summoners, especially Synthesists, as by themselves they have Average BAB, while fused they have pretty close to full, not to mention they get Dim Door at 7th like Wizards, Witches and Sorcerers, also as a 3rd level spell, meaning they can apply Lesser Metamagic Rods to them for further craziness.

So, opinions? Have I beaten this equine cadaver into a paste or am I entirely missing the point?

[Doorhandle]

Yes, the horse is the consistency of chunk pasta.

Would it work for an arcane trickster, though? Flanking with yourself is a very appealing idea for a sneak-attacker.

edit: At the same level of the magus, or one level lower with alchemist cheese. Bah.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Might the monk not get some benefit out of the dimensional agility feat, if not the chain? One use I keep seeing is the ability to dimension door as a move action and then grapple or stunning fist flying opponents.

[Cieyrin]

Might the monk not get some benefit out of the dimensional agility feat, if not the chain? One use I keep seeing is the ability to dimension door as a move action and then grapple or stunning fist flying opponents.

Removing the end turn clause is pretty nice if you have a large Ki pool or means to recover it quickly, I'll give you that. That's probably worthwhile for monks and gishes, somewhat less so for full casters, at least till you get the casting time down so you can do something worthwhile.

[Amoren]

I imagine it'll work pretty well if you import templates/feats from 3.5 into Pathfinder. One build I'm tempted to try now is a shadow-walker shadowlord with it. Shadow-walker will get you a Self Only Dimension Door at third level, meaning you can take Dimensional Agility at 3rd, Assault at 5th, and Dervish at 7th. If you can also manage to wrangle the feats for telflammar Shadowlord, I'm curious on the interplay of Shadow Pounce and Dervish (I'm seeing 3-4 full attacks from each teleport... Probably not Rules as Intended, but I'll eat my hat if no one can wrangle the Rules as Written to support this!).

If no templates, a feat can get you the blinkshirt chakra bind for 10ft teleport as dimension door to qualify for the feats at level 1(?), or a two level dip into Totemist.

[Cieyrin]

I imagine it'll work pretty well if you import templates/feats from 3.5 into Pathfinder. One build I'm tempted to try now is a shadow-walker shadowlord with it. Shadow-walker will get you a Self Only Dimension Door at third level, meaning you can take Dimensional Agility at 3rd, Assault at 5th, and Dervish at 7th. If you can also manage to wrangle the feats for telflammar Shadowlord, I'm curious on the interplay of Shadow Pounce and Dervish (I'm seeing 3-4 full attacks from each teleport... Probably not Rules as Intended, but I'll eat my hat if no one can wrangle the Rules as Written to support this!).

If no templates, a feat can get you the blinkshirt chakra bind for 10ft teleport as dimension door to qualify for the feats at level 1(?), or a two level dip into Totemist.

I think Shadowwalker has a 10th level requirement, actually. Blink Shirt could work fairly well, though I was looking at primarily PF sources.

[Coidzor]

So, opinions? Have I beaten this equine cadaver into a paste or am I entirely missing the point?

It seems pretty heavily strait-jacketed, especially for a late game only ability.

[Mystify]

I've seen it in play once, and it is pretty impressive. Yes, its a high level ability, and requires a significant investment to get to. But it has great results once you get there. Its intended to be an ability that only comes into play at high levels. I mean, look at what it gives you:

The ability to reliably get all of your attacks in a full round
with flanking
able to distribute them against whatever enemies you want
and end the turn tucked away from danger.

depending on your DM, you may even be able to teleport into the air, hit a flying enemy, and teleport away.
And monks synergize with it really well, since they have more attacks in a full round and a higher movement speed, as well as enough ki points to utilize it fairly often. You can also make them into potent trippers, and you can now trip pretty much the entire battlefield if you wish, for however much that is worth.

Yes, its a late game trick, but it is a really awesome one.

[peacenlove]

Does this feat work for spells/abilities that work like dimension door (meaning containing in their description "as dimension door but/in addition" etc)?

[Mystify]

Does this feat work for spells/abilities that work like dimension door (meaning containing in their description "as dimension door but/in addition" etc)?
"Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door."

Abundant step is called out specifically, and other than that, it only works with actually casting the spell. However, it would not be unreasonable for a DM to allow it; I would.

[El Dorado]

Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 3 can also start the chain at 9th level, hitting DDervish at 13th.

[Cieyrin]

Does this feat work for spells/abilities that work like dimension door (meaning containing in their description "as dimension door but/in addition" etc)?

As Mystify said, not by the strictest RAW but spell-likes and spells are similar enough to the point they both use the word 'casting' in their usage, so I think any reasonable DM should be fine with that usage, especially since it opens it up to any number of Outsiders, for whom Dim Door tends to be fairly common as an at-will. Not to mention I think it'd be silly to screw over Horizon Walkers for wanting to make that sacrifice for going Astral Planes for mastery and then not able to improve it.

[TypoNinja]

Couldn't you use a magic item to grant you access to dimension door, to qualify for the feat chain early, and there by be able to have the feats ready once your class ability kicked in?

Something like dimension door once a day wouldn't be that pricey, then would have the "Ability to cast dimension door" to qualify to take Dimensional Agility, start the feat chain early, then once you actually have the class ability that's really going to feed the chain, sell the item for a partial recovery of investment.

[Dusk Eclipse]

What would be the point of getting the feat early if you are only going to have 1 use per day till level 13?

[Cieyrin]

Couldn't you use a magic item to grant you access to dimension door, to qualify for the feat chain early, and there by be able to have the feats ready once your class ability kicked in?

Something like dimension door once a day wouldn't be that pricey, then would have the "Ability to cast dimension door" to qualify to take Dimensional Agility, start the feat chain early, then once you actually have the class ability that's really going to feed the chain, sell the item for a partial recovery of investment.

By the magic item formula for command word spell-likes, that's 4*7*1800=50,400 gp, so I don't think that's a valid method of early entry, since that's most of WBL of an ECL 10 character.

[Mystify]

By the magic item formula for command word spell-likes, that's 4*7*1800=50,400 gp, so I don't think that's a valid method of early entry, since that's most of WBL of an ECL 10 character.
once/day is 1/5 the price, so 10k, which is affordable.

[Doorhandle]

I think 3-day would be best if you could manage it, though.

Would a horizon walker with terrian dominace: Astral be able to use the chain?

[sreservoir]

Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 3 can also start the chain at 9th level, hitting DDervish at 13th.

wizard 8/fighter 1/eldritch knight 2 starts the chain at 7, hits dervish at 11.

[deuxhero]

Sadly Horizon Walker is among the many things hit with PF's refusal to let melee have nice things (the rest of the class is better, but the real star was nerfed hard core) and can only DD a limited number of times per day now.

[Cieyrin]

Sadly Horizon Walker is among the many things hit with PF's refusal to let melee have nice things (the rest of the class is better, but the real star was nerfed hard core) and can only DD a limited number of times per day now.

It's 3+Wis/day, so it's not like he can't use it at least a couple times per day, especially since a Ranger entry is expected.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It's 3+Wis/day, so it's not like he can't use it at least a couple times per day, especially since a Ranger entry is expected.

Still there is an enormous difference between every 1d4 rounds and about 6 maybe 7 times a day.

[deuxhero]

Indeed, it makes you a taxi cab that can kinda compete with the wizard (unless you need to go over the English channel or similar gap) at that level. While you take ~two hours to cross the same distance, you can generally see your target so you don't need a seperate Scry effect.

[Coidzor]

Indeed, it makes you a taxi cab that can kinda compete with the wizard (unless you need to go over the English channel or similar gap) at that level. While you take ~two hours to cross the same distance, you can generally see your target so you don't need a seperate Scry effect.

Plus it's not so quick that one can't encounter things along one's way either, so it's definitely less broken then scry + teleport

[Mystify]

Plus it's not so quick that one can't encounter things along one's way either, so it's definitely less broken then scry + teleport

Doesn't scrying need a creature to target? Or is there a different spell people use?

[Cieyrin]

Still there is an enormous difference between every 1d4 rounds and about 6 maybe 7 times a day.

Still about as much as a Sorcerer with Dim Door as a spell known. Yeah, you can't spam it anymore but you're still doing it about as often as the casters will be, which I don't think is as big a nerf. I mean, I'm not saying I minded having it pretty much at will, but tis not the end of the world, either.


once/day is 1/5 the price, so 10k, which is affordable.

That's still almost all of ECL 6 WBL and half of ECL 7 WBL, which isn't any earlier entry than the full casters have. If that's what's being sought after, then congrats, but that's still a huge chunk of your equipment, which makes the rest of your stuff suffer for it just so you can 'early entry'. I'm still unconvinced that's worthwhile, unless you really want your monk to have Dimensional Agility when he receives Abundant Step, then all the more power to you.

[Person_Man]

Pathfinder basically runs on two tracks.

Tier 1-2ish builds are basically more powerful then their 3.5 counterparts, because dead levels were filled in with new abilities. Though they do make a strong effort to weed out the most game breaking stuff from low level play, by ECL 7ish, game play is pretty much the same as 3.5, but with even more variety.

Everything else tries to get dragged up to Tier 3ish, but with very mixed results. In particular, the designers tend to be very focused on how powerful a specific Feat is compared to other pre-existing Feats, and how class abilities stack up to previously written abilities for that class. They are not compared to the overall resource economy of classes in general. Thus Monk class abilities are generally more numerous and somewhat more powerful, but aren't really that much more powerful then the basic Monk framework, and the most useful Monk feats require 2-4 Feat chains that are unobtainable until late levels.

My suggestion is that you take the most interesting things from 3.5, Pathfinder, and other sources, and modify them to fit into the general power level of your overall group. Following the preconceived notions of anyone's sense of "balance" within a 3.X framework is basically impossible.

[TheLoneCleric]

Isn't there some close range Sorcerer builds that can use this feat tree? Infernal/Demonic bloodlines and the like?

[Feralventas]

It probably won't work by RAW, but if you are mixing PF and 3.x, there's a feat in Ghostwalk that grants the character a 30ft-range Dimension Door effect as a standard action. Prerequisites are those of all [Ghost] feats, i.e., that you probably won't be able to do this as a vanilla mortal. There are plenty of templates that will allow this, including the straight-up Ghost template from the same source book, though I'd think that taking levels as an Eidalon would suffice.

That said, the prerequisites can be made at 1st level. If you want an early entry option and your DM is willing to work with this, it may be what you're looking for. Avoid abuse of it and there shouldn't be too many problems, especially if you're focusing on it as much as possible; it will mean neglecting things like Power Attack or Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, so you'll need to add your damage from elsewhere. The DD feat tree also works off of the range of the ability granting it DD, so the range 30 should keep you in check until such time as you can cast the real thing at 9th or 13th level.

[Cieyrin]

It probably won't work by RAW, but if you are mixing PF and 3.x, there's a feat in Ghostwalk that grants the character a 30ft-range Dimension Door effect as a standard action. Prerequisites are those of all [Ghost] feats, i.e., that you probably won't be able to do this as a vanilla mortal. There are plenty of templates that will allow this, including the straight-up Ghost template from the same source book, though I'd think that taking levels as an Eidalon would suffice.

That said, the prerequisites can be made at 1st level. If you want an early entry option and your DM is willing to work with this, it may be what you're looking for. Avoid abuse of it and there shouldn't be too many problems, especially if you're focusing on it as much as possible; it will mean neglecting things like Power Attack or Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, so you'll need to add your damage from elsewhere. The DD feat tree also works off of the range of the ability granting it DD, so the range 30 should keep you in check until such time as you can cast the real thing at 9th or 13th level.

I wouldn't say 1st level, considering the rule where your Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels can't exceed your normal levels., so you couldn't start till 3rd at the earliest. Plus the fact you have to go to Manifest to properly cross the Veil between life and death.

[sreservoir]

Isn't there some close range Sorcerer builds that can use this feat tree? Infernal/Demonic bloodlines and the like?

well, they also get 9/11/13 entry, which is ... eh.

[Cieyrin]

well, they also get 9/11/13 entry, which is ... eh.

It's still earlier than Monk and on par with Horizon Walker but yeah, straight sorcerer isn't the best use, though I could still see a full caster taking Dimensional Agility just for being able to wink out at the beginning of their turn, as opposed to the end, especially if you can get Quicken up.

[TheLoneCleric]

Too bad it's not useful for a Magus.

[Curious]

Too bad it's not useful for a Magus.

True; Accelerate does the job just as well, and doesn't require three feats.