What is the deal with Horizon Walker?

[Venser]

Seroiusly.

I have looked over it far too many times and it si really bad. Ok, he gives you some bonuses to skills and minor bonuses to attack and damage, but people have a tendancy to praise him as one of the better prestige classes.

What's the big deal?

[MagnusExultatio]

Shifting (Planar) Terrain master gives a 1d4 round cooldown Dimension Door with CL = character level.

EDIT: Also its other abilities aren't too bad either.

[Red_Dog]

I used to wonder that, and than I read thru this=>
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

Explained everything rather definitively. Hope this helps ^^

[Feytalist]

The Horizon Tripper is really only relevant, as that link states, in a Core-only game. Beyond Core-only, there is almost always a better choice, whatever your character concept.

That said, the Horizon Walker has one unique feature: Planar Terrain Mastery (Shifting). An almost-at-will dimension door effect is almost unknown for a non-caster class, excepting perhaps the Shadow Hand teleportation maneuvres from the Tome of Battle. That is very, very useful. The other Planar Terrain Mastery abilities are also nothing to sneeze at, but it takes 5+ levels to get them, unfortunately. The Aligned ability, for instance, could protect you from high-level alignment spells like Blasphemy or Holy Word.

So its abilities are interesting, but only a few are really useful.

[Yora]

One level og HW can be quite a good deal in an environmentally themed E6 game.

[Feytalist]

For one level you can pick up Terrain Mastery (desert) for immunity to fatigue. Which is pretty good.

[Zeta Kai]

To quote myself:


...Horizon Walker is awesome, but the Knowledge (geography) requirement is a pain to qualify for. It's gonna be a cross-class skill for just about anybody who would benefit the most from taking it. Who has Knowledge (geography) as a class skill in core? Bards, Rangers, & Wizards. Only to the Ranger would the trade-off possibly be worth it, & that's still not a sure thing. For everyone else, entry is denied until 13 level or later. Stupid class skill system is stupid.

Also, the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) build is cool, but it suffers from one problem: it doesn't meet the prerequisites. Getting 8 ranks in Knowledge (geography) is hard to do, & that makes the HW rather unattractive, even/especially in Core-only play.

[Cog]

Also, the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) build is cool, but it suffers from one problem: it doesn't meet the prerequisites.
The HT build linked has three levels of Ranger, and it takes them all right before going into Horizon Walker. What makes you think it doesn't qualify?

[Saph]

Yep. You can meet the pre-reqs with only one level of Ranger, too. In fact, you can do it without even spending any cross-class skill ranks as long as you have a +2 Int bonus on a nonhuman or +1 on a human. Just make your 5th class level Ranger and go all the way from 0 ranks to 8 ranks in Know (Geog) in one level.

The only reason the example build uses three levels of Ranger is for the extra skill points, the Combat Style at level 2, and most importantly the bonus Endurance feat at level 3 (which is the other pre-req).

[Zeta Kai]

Well, Saph offered three possible builds for the Horizon Tripper, & as near as I can tell, none of them work by RAW. Here's the breakdown:

Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 3 / Horizon Walker
Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger 2 / Horizon Walker
Ranger 1 / Barbarian 2 / Ranger 1 / (another level of something) / Horizon Walker

In order to get in HW, one must first acquire 8 ranks of Knowledge (geography). As I have stated before, that's a pain-in-the-ass skill to take, because it's cross-class for just about anybody who might want to take levels of HW. Bards, Rangers, & Wizards get it, but that's it in Core, & only the Ranger might want it. So lets see how each build comes out:

The first one starts with geography as a cross-class skill, so at first level, they get 2 ranks as a Barbarian. Not a good start. Then a level of Fighter, so now they have at most 2.5 ranks. Than 3 levels of Ranger, which can give them 3 more ranks, for a total of 5.5. Not enough to qualify for HW.
The second build starts off with a level of Ranger, which allows them to have 4 ranks of geography right off the bat. Not bad; we're halfway there. But then they take a level of Fighter & a level of Barbarian, which both have geography as a cross-class skill, so they can only advance a half-rank each, getting them up to 5 ranks so far. Then they wrap up with two more levels of Ranger, which can give them another 2 ranks, for a total of 7. Not enough to qualify for HW.
The third option is basically identical to the second one: a level of Ranger, followed by two levels of cross-classes, followed by more Ranger. Still not enough.

So, unless your DM has a house-rule that basically reads "once a class skill, always a class skill" (AFAIK, this is not RAW), then these builds just don't work. Ranger 5 can do it, but once you trade out levels for classes without geography, then you just have to wait until later.

[Hiro Protagonest]

For one level you can pick up Terrain Mastery (desert) for immunity to fatigue. Which is pretty good.

Best way to be a barbarian in E6.

[Hirax]

Zeta, you're misunderstanding how skill points work. When you take a level of a class, you can allocate as many skill points as you want to a skill to buy ranks at a 1:1 ratio, up to 3+HD, regardless of what your previous classes are.

edit: this is one reason why loremaster dips, for instance, are so popular with casters, because they grant UMD as a class skill. You can take 1 level of loremaster, and put all of your skill points from that level toward UMD to buy ranks at a 1:1 ratio, to a max of HD+3, even if none of your previous classes have UMD as a class skill. So if you get 10 skill points, you can buy 10 ranks in UMD with one level of loremaster.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Zeta, you're misunderstanding how skill points work. When you take a level of a class, you can allocate as many skill points as you want to a skill to buy ranks at a 1:1 ratio, up to 3+HD, regardless of what your previous classes are.

edit: this is one reason why loremaster dips, for instance, are so popular with casters, because they grant UMD as a class skill. You can take 1 level of loremaster, and put all of your skill points from that level toward UMD to buy ranks at a 1:1 ratio, to a max of HD+3, even if none of your previous classes have UMD as a class skill. So if you get 10 skill points, you can buy 10 ranks in UMD with one level of loremaster.

Er, no. Did you read the multiclassing skill rules? You get any class skills from other classes on a 2:1 ratio of points to skill ranks, but their maximum is as of they were a class skill. You need Able Learner or something to buy it at 1:1.

[Zeta Kai]

Zeta, you're misunderstanding how skill points work. When you take a level of a class, you can allocate as many skill points as you want to a skill to buy ranks at a 1:1 ratio, up to 3+HD, regardless of what your previous classes are.

Wow, that is not how it goes at my table. I didn't think that I was house-ruling the skill points. Hmmm, lemme go check my books...

[erikun]

Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm) The important stuff is:


Each skill point you spend on a class skill gets you 1 rank in that skill. Class skills are the skills found on your character’s class skill list. Each skill point you spend on a cross-class skill gets your character ½ rank in that skill. Cross-class skills are skills not found on your character’s class skill list.

Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3.

[Saph]

Er, no. Did you read the multiclassing skill rules? You get any class skills from other classes on a 2:1 ratio of points to skill ranks, but their maximum is as of they were a class skill. You need Able Learner or something to buy it at 1:1.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

When you take a level of a class, you can spend skill points to buy the class skills of that class at a 1:1 ratio. So if you have a 14 Int and take 1 level of Ranger, you can buy 8 ranks of Knowledge: Geography. If you have a 20 Int and take 1 level of Loremaster, you can buy 9 ranks of Use Magic Device. The only limit is your HD+3, as it is for all class skills. Hirax's UMD example is perfectly legal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

When you take a level of a class, you can spend skill points to buy the class skills of that class at a 1:1 ratio. So if you have a 14 Int and take 1 level of Ranger, you can buy 8 ranks of Knowledge: Geography. If you have a 20 Int and take 1 level of Loremaster, you can buy 9 ranks of Use Magic Device. The only limit is your HD+3, as it is for all class skills. Hirax's UMD example is perfectly legal.

I get it now. I thought Hirax was saying that if you took a level in ranger, you could spend one skill point for one rank in it in any of your classes.

[Hirax]

It speaks to how crappy D&D's skill system is that so much confusion exists about something that should be so simple.

[FMArthur]

Wow, that is not how it goes at my table. I didn't think that I was house-ruling the skill points. Hmmm, lemme go check my books...

Is your house rule seriously that you can only gain at most 1 rank in a skill at a time, except at first level? Why would you even think that? How did it come up in a game at all? :smallconfused:

[Chronos]

I get it now. I thought Hirax was saying that if you took a level in ranger, you could spend one skill point for one rank in it in any of your classes.You don't have ranks in different classes. The character as a whole has ranks in skills. How you spend skill points to get those ranks (and how many skill points you have available) depends on class, but one you've got the ranks, you've got them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You don't have ranks in different classes. The character as a whole has ranks in skills. How you spend skill points to get those ranks (and how many skill points you have available) depends on class, but one you've got the ranks, you've got them.

No, I meant, say, if you dip ranger, and then put points in Hide next time you take a level in barbarian.

[Greenish]

An almost-at-will dimension door effect is almost unknown for a non-caster class, excepting perhaps the Shadow Hand teleportation maneuvres from the Tome of Battle.ToB teleport maneuvers require LoS and LoE. Now, MoI is the book for At-Will Dimension Door for non-casters.


It speaks to how crappy D&D's skill system is that so much confusion exists about something that should be so simple.If there are enough people, you can find someone confused about anything. The skill system's not very good, but it's not that difficult to understand.

[Saph]

ToB teleport maneuvers require LoS and LoE. Now, MoI is the book for At-Will Dimension Door for non-casters.

That said, the range of a Totemist or Swordsage's teleport is very short compared to the Horizon Walker's Dimension Door (which starts at 800ish feet).

[deuxhero]

And as AoO aren't, RAW an action, you can use them after DDing, also no restrictions apply on anyone you bring acting. Plus when you can do it every 1d4 rounds, the 1/7th of a mile is fairly quick for overland transport (~47 MPH). Even a Wizard's Teleport is only 27 times the distance at this level (and making small, in sight, ports is safer without also blowing a slot for scrying).

[Venger]

Seroiusly.

I have looked over it far too many times and it si really bad. Ok, he gives you some bonuses to skills and minor bonuses to attack and damage, but people have a tendancy to praise him as one of the better prestige classes.

What's the big deal?

people who praise horizon walker on its own merits are usually talking about the pathfinder version, who is very different from the 3.5 one, which is indeed rather useless unless you exploit the immunity to fatigue thing somehow

[Venger]

No, I meant, say, if you dip ranger, and then put points in Hide next time you take a level in barbarian.

yeah, that's exactly how that works; if a skill is a class skill for any of your classes, then you treat it as a class skill. dip ranger and spend a bunch of ranks in knowledge geography for HW (for example) and then next level of barbarian buy ranks in hide, perfectly rules legal.

[Rubik]

yeah, that's exactly how that works; if a skill is a class skill for any of your classes, then you treat it as a class skill.Not exactly. It was gone over before, but I'll reiterate.

If you have a skill as a class skill in any of the classes you have, the maximum number of ranks you can have in that skill is equal to that of a class skill. However, if you're taking a level in a class that has it as a cross-class skill, you still have to pay 2 skill points per rank.

[Hiro Protagonest]

yeah, that's exactly how that works; if a skill is a class skill for any of your classes, then you treat it as a class skill. dip ranger and spend a bunch of ranks in knowledge geography for HW (for example) and then next level of barbarian buy ranks in hide, perfectly rules legal.

No, I meant Hide is a class skill for rangers, but not barbarians.

[Cog]

people who praise horizon walker on its own merits are usually talking about the pathfinder version, who is very different from the 3.5 one, which is indeed rather useless unless you exploit the immunity to fatigue thing somehow
Or they're comparing it to the other options in core. Which, as it turns out, is the whole point of the Horizon Tripper build. So, no, it's not just a PF thing.

[Piggy Knowles]

Back to the original question of "what's the deal," the class was written at a time when the designers way over-valued bonuses to skills and BAB. It's pretty tame now, but from a design point of view, it sort of makes sense if you think of it that way.

You can eke some usefulness out of it - if you happen to qualify anyhow and you need a mundane boost to some skills, it's not the worst dip you could imagine, although it's still not great. And if you can sit through it for 7+ levels, the planar terrain mastery abilities are actually quite cool. The Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds is the one usually trotted out, but Cavernous is also cool (tremorsense 30'), and the Aligned bonus is one of the very few ways to gain immunity to the Blasphemy/Holy Word line of spells, which can completely devastate an unprepared character.

[Chronos]

What really kills it, in an all-books (or even just many-books) environment, is that it's not really dippable. You get five levels that don't give you much at all, and then you get five pretty good levels. But that means that if you want to get the good stuff and make it worth it, you're locked in to taking all ten levels of the class, which makes it harder to take a little of this, a little of that from splatbooks.

[Tvtyrant]

Which I think is better than the outpouring of front-loaded prcs that came out later, but such is life.