(PF) Ideas for Crossblooded Sorc DragonDisciple

[grarrrg]

ATTENTION: Initial Sorc/Dragon Disciple build is generally ruled "meh".
Skip to here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12568710#post12568710) to see if any of the ideas are worth salvaging.


TL;DR I have an idea for a build, but it's missing that last little bit to make it really worthwhile. I'd like extra opinions, and directions to anything else I may have overlooked.

It has always bothered me that Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple) gives +2 Int, when the 'preferred' entry class is the Cha-based Sorcerer.

Cue Mutated Bloodlines!
A Sorcerer can take the Sage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sage) version of the Arcane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) bloodline and become Int based!

Cue sad face!
Dragon Disicple REQUIRES one have the Draconic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline) Bloodline.

Cue rules abuse Loophole!
Crossblooded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded) Sorcerers can have TWO bloodlines.


Ok, so now we have our Int-based, Dragon Blooded Sorcerer. What now?

First a rules question:
Dragon Disciple stacks-with/counts-as Sorc levels for Bloodline abilities.
We have 2 bloodlines. Can we take either Arcane OR Draconic abilities? Or would you say we should be limited to strictly Draconic with these levels?

Dragon Disciple is 3/4 bab, 7/10 casting.
The last 2 levels are 'optional' (we'll have wings from our bloodline anyway, Form of Dragon +1/day isn't worth another lost Caster level).

Can either go Sorc 5/Dragon Disciple 8/(full casting) 7, and have 9th level spells, with 12 bab.
OR
Can go a more martial route with Sorc 4/(martial weapon prof) 1/Dragon Disicple 8/(Eldritch Knight maybe?) and have 8th level spells with 15 bab? or do we take even LESS Sorcerer and have 7th (or less) level spells with 16 bab?

For the Caster option, I'd lean towards Human for the Favored Class extra Spells (it would offset the Crossblooded Spell-known drawback).
For the martial option, Elf is a good choice (+Dex/+Int).


For the Bloodline Abilities I'm thinking....
Well, after reading through them, the Arcane ones are almost always better for a 'caster' type, and the Dragon are almost always better for a 'martial' type. With the exception of level 15 +2 save DC, or unlimited use, 60ft. fly speed WINGS!

We also have 4 Bloodline feats (1 from Sorc 7, 3 from DD)
Again, pretty clear cut, Arcana=Caster, Dragon=Martial.

As for Bonus spells, I don't see any use in have ALL THREE 'Form of Dragon' spells regardless of caster/martial.
And either way we get Wish as our 9th.
Can you use the Sorc's "trade in a spell known for a different spell known" feature on Bloodline spells?

[Chess435]

As for your rules question, I do believe that by RAW, you can use Blood of Dragons ability on both bloodlines.




A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

Oddly enough, it does not specify the draconic bloodline, probably because the clossblodded archetype hadn't been thought of yet. Nice find. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

The trouble is Crossblooded loses a LOT of spells,something sorcerers don't get much of anyway. Even the human favoured bonus doesn't help completely, you still lose a highest level spell slot.
From a power perspective, Dragon Disciple isn't the greatest, you lose a lot of caster levels and spells.
And from a fluff prospective, a Dragon is ALL about the ego, the charisma. They are smart, generally, but egotistical in the extreme, even the 'good' dragons.
If you don't have the presence to go up to the Big Bad and say "Cower Before Me, Despicable Pus Stain!", what kind of dragon are you?

[Blisstake]

Yeah, I think if you take crossblooded, you'll only end up with 8th level spells, since you'll technically have 0 9th level spells known despite having spell slots for them. You'd still have them open for metamagic, though.

[grarrrg]

The trouble is Crossblooded loses a LOT of spells,something sorcerers don't get much of anyway. Even the human favoured bonus doesn't help completely, you still lose a highest level spell slot.
From a power perspective, Dragon Disciple isn't the greatest, you lose a lot of caster levels and spells.
And from a fluff prospective, a Dragon is ALL about the ego, the charisma. They are smart, generally, but egotistical in the extreme, even the 'good' dragons.
If you don't have the presence to go up to the Big Bad and say "Cower Before Me, Despicable Pus Stain!", what kind of dragon are you?

Answering your statements NOT in order.

I know that Dragon Disciple is "meh". The point is to make is less "meh".
Hence why I am NOT taking the last 2 levels, and why I am going through shenanigans to become Int based to make that part more useful.

I know Dragons are all about "I'm a Dragon, I am AWESOME". So, again, why does Dragon Disciple give +2 _INT_ of all things? I know that Dragons are Smart (well, good ALL stats, cept maybe Dex). So I'm trying to make use of what I'm given.

And lastly, Crossblooded loses spells KNOWN, not spell slots. As Blisstake pointed out, we have 1 level 9 slot, and 0 level 9 known.

BUT Dragon Disciple counts towards our Bloodline bonus spells.

This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
So once we hit Sorc+DD=19 we will NOT get our bonus spell, but once we have the slot for it (level 20) it will 'pop' into existence.

*cue battle music*
A NEW LOOPHOLE HAS APPEARED!
Expanded Arcana Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana)
Benefit: Add one spell from your class’s spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class...

It only says add it to your spells known. It does NOT say you must be able to 'cast' said spell. (there IS a disclaimer to that effect, but it only applies if you're taking the "2 lesser" option).

With Sorc 12/DD 8 we will hit 9th level spells at level 20. ANYTIME before this, we can take the Expanded Arcana feat to learn (but not use) a 9th level spell.

[Curious]

You can skip out on the level of (Martial weapon proficiency) by being an Aasimar or Tiefling. Since they are Outsiders, they technically automatically gain proficiency with martial weapons, and are PC-available to boot.

[grarrrg]

You can skip out on the level of (Martial weapon proficiency) by being an Aasimar or Tiefling. Since they are Outsiders, they technically automatically gain proficiency with martial weapons, and are PC-available to boot.

That's....debatable (and pointless in the case of the Aasimar).
And the point is not so much having Martial proficiencies, as it is getting Full/High Bab.
Most any Full Bab class will have Martial proficiencies.

The reason Aasimar is pointless, is because it lessens the point of doing Crossblood Int shenanigans to make use of DD's +2 Int.
We want NEED a race with an Int boost, otherwise it defeats the point.
Tieflings are ok, because there are OODLES of slightly different versions you can take.

[legomaster00156]

This is a stupid nitpicking of a rule, but it's relevant:


A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.

Guess what? The Sage Bloodline and the Crossblooded archetype both modify the Bloodline Arcana and 1st-level ability.

[Belril Duskwalk]

Can you use the Sorc's "trade in a spell known for a different spell known" feature on Bloodline spells?

To answer that:

At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

So, no. Otherwise my Starsoul Sorcerer definitely wouldn't have kept Unseen Servant for long.

[grarrrg]

Guess what? The Sage Bloodline and the Crossblooded archetype both modify the Bloodline Arcana and 1st-level ability.

Reread Crossblooded.
Crossblooded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded)
A crossblooded sorcerer gains the bloodline arcana of both her bloodlines
At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level......

[ericgrau]

Sorc 6 / DD 8 seems to work well but then if you want to play past level 14 it all goes down the toilet after that and you'd be better off being an eldritch knight from the start. I mean PF took out dragon apotheosis and gave you a spell that you could take later anyway. Fine if you hope the campaign will end at level 14. Next either your attack bonus or casting is about to go down the toilet and you no longer have a decent gish. Crossblooded seems to put your casting even further behind until you get a whopping +2 int right at that point when you hope the campaign ends. I don't think crossblooded is worth it.

Melee Class 3-4 / Sorc 2-1 / DD 8 (or DD 4) works then you can eldritch knight from there or whatever full BAB option you want. That could actually out-do a lot of melee because its attack bonus actually goes up (including AB from str) AND you get partial casting to self buff. In 3.5 that was the best core melee option and in PF it still keeps up if not remains the best thanks to the spells.

[legomaster00156]

Reread Crossblooded.
Crossblooded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded)
I know what the modifications do, but they're modifications nonetheless. RAW is tricky like that.

[Blisstake]

Yeah, techically you aren't allowed to take both, as they both modify your bloodline arcana, even though intuitively, the changes given by crossblooded don't interfere.

[grarrrg]

Yeah, techically you aren't allowed to take both, as they both modify your bloodline arcana, even though intuitively, the changes given by crossblooded don't interfere.

I agree there is room for confusion. Bare with me a moment.

Archetype features can either be "X", "(X)", or C.
X: Replaced, the class feature is in whole, or in part gone and replaced with something else.
(X): Optional replacement, there is a choice to keep "as-is" or do something different.
C: Changed, still basically the same feature, with minor tweaks.

Now we can all easily agree that ACF's with 'matching' X's cannot be taken together.
'Matching' C's are likewise frowned upon.
And pairing a C with an X is equally frowned on.

But (X)'s are an odd case. Do a quick search on "Qinggong Hungry Ghost Monk", this is a fairly popular build that has been circling. Note that even though Hungry Ghost has an X in Diamond Body, and Qinggong has an (X) that no one complains they cannot be used together. They just agree that once you would reach that point that you MUST take Diamond Body and not the alternative.

Crossblooded overlaps with Wildblooded in Bloodline Powers and Bloodline Arcana.
Bloodline Powers are fine (see the monk example) as Crossblooded is rated all (X)'s.
The problem lies with Bloodline Arcana. Crossblooded gives it a C, all the Wildblood lines are X.

But should Crossblooded really be a C?
The Arcana is not changed. The Arcana is not Replaced. Heck, there isn't even an Optional Replacement.
It is added-to/doubled. Both Arcana's are as they were, there are just two of them now.
Crossblooded Arcana should be Rated "A" for Added to (or "E" for enhanced, or....).

So yes, there is confusion, but any reasonable DM would allow it.


And if you really want to get technical....
Wildblooded is the Archetype, it replaces nothing.
Mutated Bloodlines are not, strictly, archetypes, so there is no conflict. :smalltongue:

[legomaster00156]

I wouldn't worry about the RAW too much, since any sensible DM will allow this, but the Arcana is an X and a C.

[Dr.Epic]

Doesn't it already exist and isn't it called wizard?:smallconfused:

[Blisstake]

And if you really want to get technical....
Wildblooded is the Archetype, it replaces nothing.
Mutated Bloodlines are not, strictly, archetypes, so there is no conflict. :smalltongue:

No.

Wildblooded varies what it replaces, which is why it doesn't show anything. You go to the specific bloodline you're taking to see what it replaces.

Like I said, most DMs would be willing to work with it, but RAW you can't take both.


Doesn't it already exist and isn't it called wizard?:smallconfused:

Wizards aren't spontaneous casters, and can't enter DD as a result.

[grarrrg]

No.

Wildblooded varies what it replaces, which is why it doesn't show anything. You go to the specific bloodline you're taking to see what it replaces.

Like I said, most DMs would be willing to work with it, but RAW you can't take both.

No, seriously. Wildblooded should not even be "an archetype".

Look at Clerics/Domains.
A lot of Cleric ACF's alter the Domains, but no one scoffs at taking different domains, or using Sub-domains.

Or a Wizard choosing their Arcane School. No one cares about interaction between Wizard ACF and their Arcane School or Sub-School of choice.

Wildblooded should not be considered an archetype.

[legomaster00156]

No, seriously. Wildblooded should not even be "an archetype".

Look at Clerics/Domains.
A lot of Cleric ACF's alter the Domains, but no one scoffs at taking different domains, or using Sub-domains.

Or a Wizard choosing their Arcane School. No one cares about interaction between Wizard ACF and their Arcane School or Sub-School of choice.

Wildblooded should not be considered an archetype.
You're right: it shouldn't be considered an Archetype. But by RAW, it is, and that is what we're toying with here.

[Blisstake]

Yeah, here's exactly how it shows up in the book

Wildblooded (Archetype)

[grarrrg]

New approach.

Int Based Dragon Disciple fails because either the lost caster levels aren't fully made up for by the increase in Int, and it fails as a Martial Character by being about the same as an Eldritch Knight would be.

So, new approach.

Is there a Bloodline we can Crossblood Draconic with to MAKE Dragon Disciple respectable as a Gish?
(assume that multi-archtype is not a problem)

[Belril Duskwalk]

I'd have to say Orc. The Orc Bloodline gives an inherent Strength bonus at level 9 (and gets bigger every 4 sorcer levels after). You'd be taking it in place of the Breath Weapon granted by Draconic, but Dragon Disciple 3 gives you the Breath Weapon anyway. Also the 2nd level bloodline spells from Orc is Bulls Strength, nice for a gish.

EDIT: Just got around to looking at the Dragon Disciple. By Crossblooded Orc-Draconic 9/Dragon Disciple 4 you could have a total of +6 Strength from class features. Sorcerer SMASH!

[grarrrg]

I'd have to say Orc. The Orc Bloodline gives an inherent Strength bonus at level 9 (and gets bigger every 4 sorcer levels after). You'd be taking it in place of the Breath Weapon granted by Draconic, but Dragon Disciple 3 gives you the Breath Weapon anyway. Also the 2nd level bloodline spells from Orc is Bulls Strength, nice for a gish.

EDIT: Just got around to looking at the Dragon Disciple. By Crossblooded Orc-Draconic 9/Dragon Disciple 4 you could have a total of +6 Strength from class features. Sorcerer SMASH!

OOOooOOOO!

Actually, if the Bloodlines/Dragon Disciple stack like we think they do, you could have +8 Str by S 9/DD 4. +4 from Dragon Disciple, +4 from a total bloodline of 13.

And if we take Dragon Disciple to level 10, that would give us Wings, so we could then trade the Draconic Wings away for Power of Giants (Enlarge on Steroids!)
The next question is, which is better?
Immune Paralysis/Sleep/[dragon energy] and (worthless) Blindsense
OR
Immune Fire, DR 5/- and 1/day Transformation (Bab = Char level? yes please)

Immune Energy is a wash. Transformation can (probably) be taken as a Known Spell levels earlier, already have Blindsense from Dragon Disciple levels. So it comes down to
Immune Paralysis/Sleep
OR
DR 5/-


Hmmmm..... Dragon Disciple gives +4 Str, +2 Con
Strength of the Beast will give +6 Str
Power of Giants is +6 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con
Transformation is +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con
Total of +20 Str, +2 Dex, +10 Con! Eat it Barbarians! (granted, we need to spend 2 standard actions to achieve this but....

(someone else needs to figure out the Natural Armor with what stacks and what doesn't)
Natural Armor:
Draconic Bloodline +4 (cannot take the Orc Bloodline version due to taking other powers)
Transformation gives +4
Power of Giants +4
Dragon Disciple +3

[Belril Duskwalk]

Additional fun from Orc-Draconic Crossblood. Any crossblood applies both of his bloodline arcana. Draconic Bloodline gives you +1 damage per damage die rolled on spells of the energy type matching your dragon-type. Orc Bloodline gives you +1 damage per damage die rolled on all spells. Result: spells which match your dragon type's energy deal +2 damage per die rolled. So damage spells officially pack a punch on this sorcerer.

For Bloodline Powers I would say:
Claws at 1st
Dragon Resistances at 3rd
Strength of the Beast at 9th
Probably Power of the Giants at 15th
20th I'd go for Power of the Wyrms, if only as a tribute to the Dragon Disciple side of things

Unless I am strongly mistaken most of the Natural Armor bonuses are not compatible with each other. Since they are all Natural Armor type, I think the only one that could stack with any of the others is the Dragon Disciple (because it explicitly says it enhances existing Natural Armor, rather than granting it). So at best, +7 total AC from the Draconic Bloodlines Dragon Resistances and the Dragon Disciples Natural Armor boost effect.

[grarrrg]

For Bloodline Powers I would say:
Claws at 1st
Dragon Resistances at 3rd
Strength of the Beast at 9th
Probably Power of the Giants at 15th
20th I'd go for Power of the Wyrms, if only as a tribute to the Dragon Disciple side of things

Unless I am strongly mistaken most of the Natural Armor bonuses are not compatible with each other.

In that case, take the Orc Fearless at level 3 then, we have enough ways to gain Natural Armor that the extra +2 from Draconic won't matter, and Power of the Wyrms at 20 gives us immunity to [Dragergy] anyway (it doesn't pay to have "fire" resist AND "fire" immunity).
Another point that I missed is that Orc Bloodline "gains" Light Sensitivity as part of it's Arcana, Fearless removes it.
And we get bonus Immune Fear on the side.

Transformation we can just pick up as a Spell.

Oh, and look at one of the Bloodline feats we can take from Orc
Intimidating Prowess (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final)
Make Intimidate checks with +Cha AND +Str
Remember that ridiculous Str bonus we (can) have?
FEAR ME!



I also think it's kind of funny that we'll have a Level 9 spell known, but won't be able to cast it.
Sorc 10 + DD 10 = Bloodline level 20 > Bloodline Level 9 spell gained at 19
DD 10 > lose 3 caster levels > no 9th level slots
(I know that we technically don't get the Bloodline spell known unless we can cast it, but it's still funny)

[ericgrau]

Natural armor: As long as they're all untyped they all stack. Natural armor with a type (e.g., enhancement bonus) does not stack with other natural armor of the same type. Same for ability score bonuses so for example transformation ability scores don't stack with magic items so they don't do much.

As a rule of thumb I wouldn't waste a turn on a buff that gives a +4 to your rolls or less. Which is almost all of them unfortunately. Fights are short, you'd do more by attacking. Power of Giants is worth it, but I don't think transformation is. Better yet, buff before the fight begins whenever possible and you lose the drawback. Even before you get a good buff a substandard one is better than nothing as long as you're not wasting combat time.

The orc bloodline crossblood is a cool idea for strong melee. Though I'd stick with full BAB class 3 / sorc 2 / DD X to maximize your attack bonus even though the strength boost gets delayed a little. Taking 7 more levels of sorc dumps away 4 BAB just to get a +1 to hit and damage from strength sooner. And the first 3 levels could be used to nab feats or rage or etc. for even more benefits.

[grarrrg]

As a rule of thumb I wouldn't waste a turn on a buff that gives a +4 to your rolls or less. Which is almost all of them unfortunately. Fights are short, you'd do more by attacking. Power of Giants is worth it, but I don't think transformation is. Better yet, buff before the fight begins whenever possible and you lose the drawback.

Normally I might agree with you, but reread Transformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transformation)

Your base attack bonus equals your character level
That little bit alone can make it quite worthwhile.

That, and it gives +4 to all physical stats, so more AC/HP too.

[ericgrau]

The bonuses to physical stats are enhancement bonuses which don't stack with magic items. Thus you're left with mainly the BAB boost which isn't much when you could focus on high and medium BAB classes from the start.

As-is intimidate substitutes for diplomacy and lets you blow an action to give a single foe a -2 to his rolls. Pretty mediocre. But with dazzling display, dreadful carnage, and/or gory finish (combined with intimidating prowess of course) you can make it a lot better.

[grarrrg]

I just realized the perfect race choice to build this class.


Half-Elf

"Yeah, what Race is your character?"
"Well, he's Half-Elf, which is half human & half elf, and he's half Orc, and Half Dragon too!"
"That's... a lot of halves...."

(technically, we don't count as a Dragon, but we DO count as an Orc!)


Natural armor: As long as they're all untyped they all stack. Natural armor with a type (e.g., enhancement bonus) does not stack with other natural armor of the same type.

Found the relevant ruling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Natural-Armor-Bonus): (underline by me)

.....Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses....
Unless explicitly stated otherwise, they do not stack.
So our Dragon is left with +7 max at the moment (Dragon Disciple's +3 DOES stack, the others do not).


As-is intimidate substitutes for diplomacy and lets you blow an action to give a single foe a -2 to his rolls. Pretty mediocre. But with dazzling display, dreadful carnage, and/or gory finish (combined with intimidating prowess of course) you can make it a lot better.

I was thinking more along the lines of Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat), since with our massive Str we will be more likely to Power Attack.


The bonuses to physical stats are enhancement bonuses which don't stack with magic items. Thus you're left with mainly the BAB boost which isn't much when you could focus on high and medium BAB classes from the start.

The problem is that we need/want at least a level 15 bloodline, and the only ways to do that are through Sorcerer (bad Bab), Dragon Disciple (meh Bab), or the Eldritch Heritage line of feats.

Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-eldritch-heritage) is very tempting, but is slow (must be 2 levels past the point a Sorc would normally get it), and is feat intensive (need Skill Focus that matches the Bloodline).
So you spend 2 feats on a 1st level Bloodline power, 3 feats on a 3rd or 9th bloodline power, and 4 feats on a 15th Bloodline power.

The bonus of using the feats is it uses Character level as Sorc level (usually at -2 though).
Regardless we need the actual Draconic to get into Dragon Disciple.

The question now, is what Feats do we "need" for the build, and how many can we spare for Eldritch Heritage dipping?
And if we can afford the feats, do we skip crossblooded and grab the Orc stuff with our Feats? Or do we cherry pick a THIRD bloodline?

If mutated bloodlines are allowed for Eldritch Heritage, then Pit-Touched (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/pit-touched) is nice for (up to) +6 Con for 3 feats. (If mutated is not allowed, we could take Pit Touched as our second and grab the Orc stuff through Feats).

Otherwise Celestial (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/celestial-bloodline) would be nice for Resist 10 Acid and Cold

[Paul H]

Hi

Actually I've been toying with this idea for a while for the PFS campaign.

Taking a Gnome with the Pyromaniac Trait.

First take a level of Synthesist to improve AC & physical stats, so I can have Cha 22.
Then go Crossblooded Draconic/Elemental (Fire) Sorceror. Not sure about the DD since it's only 7/10 caster levels, and you're already losing spells as mentioned.

Why all the talk about BAB? this build is about flexibility, not a Gish. If you wanted that, then straight Sorc 1/Paladin 4/DD xxxx. Better yet, just play a Synthesist.

Dragon Disciple allows you to assume the Form of a Dragon (Spell) for short periods of time 2/day. Synthesists can BE a Dragon for as long as you are conscious. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks
Paul H

[ericgrau]

True conrnugon smash is the best of the bunch, I only left it out because it's specific to the Cheliax setting. Ya it's painful that you have to wait so long to get the strength, but it's better than sacrificing more than you gain to get there a little faster. Eldritch heritage seems like a good compromise since you're only 2 levels behind instead of 3 the way I did it and you don't need to sacrifice BAB for it. And now you can crossblood into one of the other options you mentioned on top of eldritching into orc blood. It is feat intensive but it's still only 1/3rd of your feats and that's not even counting bonus feats.

I bring up attack bonus because with DD you can either be awesome at melee and also happen to have some spell flexibility or you can be ok at spells and also ok at melee (like an eldritch knight). For the 2nd option you need to stop at level 14 (which kills many of the ideas here) before it loses effectiveness or go eldritch knight instead. So that leaves the first option if you want to pull all these cool tricks the OP is finding and have a net gain rather than a net loss.

[grarrrg]

Crossblooded Orc is out, Crossblooded Infernal>Pit-Touched is in.
The Eldritch Heritage feats will be used to gain the relevant Orc Bloodline Abilities (Strength of the Beast, Power of Giants). This will take 4 feats (Skill Focus +3 Eldrtich Heritage). AND we have the added bonus of NOT gaining the Bloodline Arcana, this is useful because we DON'T gain Light Sensitivity from Orc (but we also don't gain Orc subtype, ruining our mega-bastardized concept...oh well).
All of our Bloodline powers will come from the Draconic side, with the exception of Tough as Hell. Spells/Feats at your discretion.

To save on Feats, we shall skip Intimidation optimization.

As long as we take all 10 levels of Dragon Disciple we can afford to drop down to 3 levels of Sorcerer.
Level 10 DDisciple gives us Wings, so we don't need a level 15 Bloodline, but we DO want a level 13 Bloodline for the +4 Con from Pit-Touched.

Currently at 13 levels, Caster level 10, 8 Bab (9 if fractional).
If we take the remaining levels in Full Bab we'll only be able to get up to 15 Bab total, we won't be able to get the last Iterative attack, but that's ok, it rarely hits anyway.

We're pretty much looking at Eldritch Knight for the majority of the remaining levels, as it is the only choice with Full bab and (mostly) full Casting progression.
But we need at least 2 levels in a base class to qualify for Dragon Disciple (skill ranks)

Fighter is the obvious choice. We get our proficiencies and bonus feats to help make up for Eldritch Heritage.
The other choice would be 2 levels of (Anti)Paladin to get Cha to saves.
An alternate option would be to squeeze a level of Oracle in. Lore Mystery>Sidestep Secret would get us Cha to AC and Ref saves, allowing us to dump Dex as a stat.

All remaining levels would be Eldritch Knight. (option breakdown, spoilered for space)

Option A
Fighter 2/EK 5
15 Bab, 14 Caster level (16 Bab if fractional)

Option B
Paladin 2/EK 5
15 Bab, 14 Caster level (16 Bab frac)
Cha to Saves

Option C
Fighter 1/Oracle 1/EK 5
14 Bab, 14 Caster level (15 Bab frac)
Cha to AC

Option D
Paladin 2/Oracle 1/EK 4
14 Bab, 13 Caster level (15 Bab frac)
Cha to AC and Saves

Best Race choices are
Human, +2 any and Bonus feat
Suli (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Suli) (half-human, half-genie, yay! bastardization continues!) +2 Str +2 Cha, resist 5 Acid/Cold/Electric/Fire (yes ALL of them)

From our 3 bloodlines we'll have Nat armor +2, Resist [energy] 10, +6 Str, +4 Con, and the ability to grow to Large size w/ +6 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con and +4 Natural Armor.
From Dragon Disciple we'll have an additional Nat armor +3, +4 Str, +2 Con, Wings, and 3 Bloodline bonus feats. Oh, and we can Form of Dragon II twice a day (MORE Str/Con!)
We'll have 6 bonus Bloodline Spells from either Infernal or Draconic.

Our 'base' stats will be +10 Str, +6 Con, +5 Natural Armor
We can't benefit from Form of Dragon II and Power of Giants at the same time (both give Size bonuses), and both give the same Str/Con boosts. But Form of Dragon II does not have a Dex penalty, and gives +6 Nat armor (boosting us to +9 Nat armor total).
BUT since we can only Form of Dragon 2/day it's nice to have the redundancy (and Greater Eldritch Heritage lets the lesser Heritage feats function at full Character level anyway).
Of course, we could just skip Greater Heritage and free up a feat.

Thoughts on best level progression?
Did I miss anything?

[ericgrau]

It looks good but I think the thread is dying because there's not much left to be done. At this point the advantages/disadvantages are small so it's coming down to player preference.

[doko239]

Be a Pyromaniac Gnome, Crossblooded (Draconic (Red Dragon)/Primal (Fire)) Sorcerer.

+1 caster level and +2 damage/die on all Fire descriptor spells seems pretty damn nice! Add Magical Lineage (Burning Hands) trait, Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Burning Hands), and Intensified Spell. Burning hands will now deal up to 10d4 + 20 damage as a 1st level spell :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Changed the trait to a better one.

[NikosBlu]

OK, let's take a look at what the prestige is actually trying to do: to create a lesser half-dragon. Hence the bonuses it gives.

As for the bonus in Int and not in Cha? Have a look in the dragon stats. The Int and Cha abilities are the same. They don't need to intimidate people around them, they got their aura for that. Also, they are equally cunning and charismatic.
Hell, even Wis is greater than these two!

And since the base classes already use Cha for spellcasting (meaning you already have a big Cha score) I'm eager to welcome a few more Int points up there!