American Mythology Setting (Help is welcome!) [Archive]

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-19, 04:24 PM

I want to make a campaign setting that's inspired by America's collection of myths. What (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w6M6IIKjWM) might (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzrOjposiMY) this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gBctl1h_2o) look (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gUKvmOEGCU) like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq4izhwg3Mo)? Help us build it!

Setting & History: Steampunk. Other elements include:

Pirates
Revolutionary War
The Kinstrife, a violent war when the Empire turned against itself over the rights of Ironmen.
Wild West
Opium Wars

Races:

Imperials: Mmmmm, vanilla.
Jamatu: Imperials that are a creole of a cultural minority from the East and natives from the marshlands of the New World. Voodoo is their religion (name pending)
Natives:
Plains: Several tribes allied with the Empire, but there are several other tribes (ousted from their eastern homelands by the Empire) that act as guerrilla terrorists.
Northwest: Fisherfolk who are constantly bickering with each other, and also with the Empire.
Mountain: These guys consider the mountains to be the birthplace of all life, and guard their homes fiercely.
Wild Men: Natives who reject all human social order. They roam in packs, speak in a rudimentary tongue, and attack Imperials and other Natives alike.
Boradoans: Natives hailing from the southern desert, consisting of two major groups.
The Devout: These Natives protect and guard the palaces of their Old Gods.
Nuevo Boradoans: These Natives are a breakaway faction from the Devout. They settled on the northern fringes of the desert, slowly salvaging the secrets of a small Palace of the Old Gods.
Warforged: These will serve as a slave race, either pre- or post-freedom.

Politics:

I think an empire is definitely necessary, made up mostly of humans, with a lot of smaller kingdoms scattered everywhere else.
Powerful economy with lots of steampunk industry.
Military might. The Empire's military should be the baddest thing anyone's ever heard of. Undefeated.
Lots of secret organizations scattered everywhere.
The Empire should profess the freedom of all people, perhaps while crushing those who choose not to join the Empire.
The Empire has a huge amount of pride despite/because its people come from all other nations.
The Empire expanded West because of dwindling resources, and is currently fighting a war against the Boradoans and some other natives.

Factions: Essentially, this is a list of approved cultures, organizations, and religions.

The Empire: A democratic Empire made up of immigrants from across the Eastern Ocean, this nation is a major contender for control of the entire continent.
Progeny of Freedom - The group responsible for building, staffing, and caring for monuments to national heroes. "Temple" of the Empire.
The Lightborn - The major religious presence in the Empire, these folk preach the damnation of all that is arcane, especially the Undead. Most Imperials are at least nominally members of the Lightborn, though many are far from orthodox in their lifestyle.
The Academy of Steam - Dr. Steam's center for research. "Temple" of knowledge and the enlightenment movement.
The Gardens of Nostalgia - A society dedicated to the preservation of nature into national parks, and also to instilling a love of nature into the populace. "Temple" of nature and the romantic movement.
Rectorum - A secret society rumored to be pulling the strings behind every major Imperial organization. Thought by many to be a fiction.
Voodoo - The religion/magic system of the J'amatu.
Borado: Nomads from the southern desert, this folk guards the secret places of their gods from all outsiders.
The Devout - A stalwart group of rangers and warriors dedicated to guarding the Place of the Old Gods.
New Borado: A mix of the blood of Borado and Pre-Imperial immigrants from the east, this nation dwells in great cliff cities in the canyons that riddle the Northern Desert.
Temple of The Heavenly Host - Considered to be profane by the Boradoans, this place of worship seeks to harness the power hidden away in the artifacts of the Old Gods.
Hand of Fire - The Military of New Borado, these individuals use strange weaponry evolved from the study of the Old Gods' artifacts.
Natives: Once scattered across the entirety of the New World, now these folk are constrained to the northern plains and the western frontier.
Plains - Once living in vast underground cities, these people are now seminomadic, and work as transporters for the Empire's farming industry in the plains region.
Mountain - Revered as shamans and sacred protectors by all native factions, these folk live in the Western Peaks. They consider all life to have started in these mountains, and guard them fiercely against all encroachment.
Northwestern - Truly a multitude of bickering tribes, these people are nevertheless bound by a common culture. They all live in communal lodges and live off of the bounty of the sea, and most of them are very antagonistic towards the encroaching empire.

Map:
Geographical:http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/AMERKU3.jpg
Political:http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/PolFinal1.jpg
The Kinstrife:http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/KinstrifeFinal1.jpg

Locations:

The First Canton of the Empire of the New World, also known as "Norton, C.E." for Emperor Norton I, is the capital of the Empire of the New World.
Coterois, Gateway to the West, City of Crossing Paths, and home to the underwater playground of Aqualuxia
Mahigan, Gateway to the Plains
Platarena: Capital of Nuevo Borado, and a hotbed of Strange, Ancient Technology.
San Bernardo: A thriving immigrant city on the Western coast, this city was rocked by a violent earthquake. It had since been rebuilt in absurd fashion by Dr. Steam.
Tree Island: One of the few law-bound towns in the region just East of the Sacred Mountains, this is a gambling haven as well as the sight of many famous gunfights.
The Palace of the Gods: A mythical city of long lost secrets. The nomadic Boradoans--and, it seems, the desert itself--guard it fiercely against all incursions.
Tokareville (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12835171&postcount=185): A flying city powered by the wonders of steam. Originally invented by Dr. Tokarev himself, he quickly abandoned it for other projects, and it was soon usurped by pirates.

Religion:

The Dwellers in Light: An Old World religion worshipped by most Imperials to one degree or another. It condemns undeath as the most abominable sin, and shuns the practice of magic.
The Old Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12838536&postcount=191): The religion of both Borado and Nuevo Borado.
Native religions: A collection of beliefs that vary widely by region, but nonetheless share many common themes.

Myths:

Concho Tex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12756166&postcount=102), The greatest cowboy in the New World.
Blackfox, with his erstwhile companion the Masked Imperial! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12699373&postcount=90)
Sergei Tokarev (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12770325&postcount=122), aka "Dr. Steam." He will be a prominent figure for the Enlightenment faction.
Iron John, Ironman Martyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12634092&postcount=58).
Tribulation Jenny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12756254&postcount=103), the Most Magnificent Woman in the World.
Daniel Brockett (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12734982&postcount=98), King of the Wild Frontier.
Slate the Killer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12756384&postcount=105), greatest Lawman of the West.
Thomas "Tommy" Oakenstride (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12770306&postcount=120), a nigh-mythical figure and a figurehead for the Romantic movement.
Usher Ravenholme (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12770313&postcount=121), famed Imperial Poet, madman, and rumored dabbler in dark arts.
Isaiah Copperton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12874689&postcount=213), Champion of Freedom, and greatest Emperor of the New World.
Albus Politus and Jonathan Norton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12903150&postcount=234), two of the Four Fathers, the most influential men in the birth of the Dominion.
The Gentlmen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12934465&postcount=251), the iconics of the setting.
Headless horseman
Voodoo (Baron Samedi)
Paul Bunyan
Bigfoot
Casey Jones
Uncle Sam

Monsters: There will probably be a lot of carry-over between this and Myths.

Zombies
Bigfoot
Aliens
Jersey Devil
Cthulhu
Demonic Possession: Paranormal Activity? The Exorcist???
Witches: Nothing says "America" like the Salem witch trials.
Mad Scientists: This could be reflavored as Mad Wizards/Sorcerers pretty easily.
Native Monsters:
Lake Monster: A lake that pursues and kills you if you drink out of it. What?
Obsidian Giant: A giant covered in/made of big plates of obsidian. Weakness in the armpit.
Thunderbird: Maybe big/important enough for deification. Controls/summons storms. Killed and replaced the dragons a long time ago. Can shapeshift into humans by tilting back their beaks like a mask and removing their feathers like a cloak.
Giants
Gremlins

Classes, Homebrew, Etc.
We will be using Legend (www.ruleofcool.com) for this setting. If you don't have it, then you should.

OP (If you're interested)
I read somewhere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed) not too long ago that Tolkien created Middle-Earth partly because he wanted to create a distinctly British mythology. Whether or not that was his intention, I'd say he did a good job of creating not only a British mythology, but also a mythology for the entire western world at the time of his life, and that mythology has extended forward to today.

Here's what I've been thinking: What would a modern mythology look like? I think most of the people on this board are from the states, right? In that case, what might a distinctly American modern mythology look like?

This may turn into a pretty cool setting, but right now it's just a thought experiment.

If you were going to build a setting that would serve as an "Modern/American Mythology," what would you include?

boomwolf

2012-01-19, 08:35 PM

Well, I can think of a few ideas:

-Urban setting, naturally.

-Zombies, as said we got hooked on them, but plague variant, not magic one.

-Aliens as the non-human races. maybe robots too? tons of alien stories, and we are not far from quashi-sentient robots. (and some conspiracy loonies claim they already exist but hide the fact)

-Religious war, but its rather vague and nobody actually understand what the war is ABOUT because there is nearly no difference between the religions. they just each claim to be BETTER, not even bothering to explain how they are any different. {{Scrubbed}}

-MUTATIONS, radiation-infected far beyond what is possible in real life. (like, comic-book level.)

-Secret organizations, EVERYWHERE. for no apparent reason too, some of them hold massive power and don't even to have any agenda at all. (because if you examine most secret society conspirations, the secret societies don't seem to do anything expect hiding their existence, EVER.)

-Martial arts is Manga-level (not supernatural, but way beyond human edge), because that's what many people seem to believe. (no, real ninja's CANT cut a bullet mid-air with a gun, in game they can!)

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-19, 09:31 PM

I'm thinking about a few different "ages" for this potential setting. To introduce them, let's compare Tolkien.

Tolkien fought in WWI, and was exposed to the horrors of war that ravaged Europe at the hands of the Germans. By comparison, Frodo fought in the War of the Ring, and was exposed to the horrors of war that ravaged Middle-Earth at the hands of Sauron and his orcs.

Now, this is a gross oversimplification, and I don't know that Tolkien was using Frodo as an autobiographical character, but I think you'd have a hard time arguing that the arc of Tolkien's epic wasn't informed by his experiences in life.

That said, it retains a medieval fantasy setting. The most important figure in British mythology is arguably King Arthur, and most iterations of his tale (especially in Tolkien's day) place him in a medieval time. I don't think this is a coincidence.

So here's what I'm thinking. Perspective-shaping events that have happened recently might include the war on terror and the financial crisis, so we could use those as inspiration for plot devices. What are some others? (If this is skirting too close to the "no politics or religion" policy, I am very sorry!)

Extant myth elements from American history include the age of Caribbean pirates, the revolutionary and civil wars, and the wild west. These would all make for interesting ages to set the story, and could also provide a lot of plot device inspiration. As a bonus, they're far enough away from the present to provide a nice "fantastic vacation."

Alternatively, we could stick with a more traditional medieval fantasy setting. I think the events and spirit of these eras would be recognizably "American," and could be placed into a medieval setting without much hullabaloo.

Gemini Lupus

2012-01-19, 09:54 PM

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-20, 01:19 AM

I actually think that American Gods by Neil Gaiman paints an appropriate picture of what a modern mythology might look like. A hodgepodge of different myths and characters from the old world mixed with the "gods" of modern society, Media, Celebrity, Technology, etc.

Curse you for mentioning my favorite book before I could. :smallwink: As for my thoughts:

-Because I like to be contrary, I'd like to remind people that America has a fairly rich mythology ripe for plumbing. Paul Bunyun. Pecos Bill. Louisiana Voodoo. Zoro. Casey Jones. Bigfoot. Jackalope. For Giant's sake, anything and everything written by Mark Twain.

Basically, I'd advise looking through 19th Century and Early 20th Century Literature. Drop a few lines from TS Eliot's Hollow Men. Have a mad sorcerer Tesla battle Babe the Blue Ox. Johnny Appleseed is a druid. Headless Horseman, amirite?

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-20, 10:14 AM

Curse you for mentioning my favorite book before I could. :smallwink: As for my thoughts:

-Because I like to be contrary, I'd like to remind people that America has a fairly rich mythology ripe for plumbing. Paul Bunyun. Pecos Bill. Louisiana Voodoo. Zoro. Casey Jones. Bigfoot. Jackalope. For Giant's sake, anything and everything written by Mark Twain.

Basically, I'd advise looking through 19th Century and Early 20th Century Literature. Drop a few lines from TS Eliot's Hollow Men. Have a mad sorcerer Tesla battle Babe the Blue Ox. Johnny Appleseed is a druid. Headless Horseman, amirite?

I think this is all great info! My question now is if these myths can be taken out of their elements and still remain true to their spirit. In general, I feel like it would be best to "re-skin" these myths so they all look like they're from the same era/region/whatever.

Maybe the voodoo is the source of the zombies? That's actually got a LOT of historical precendent. Maybe the headless horseman is a zombie king? Or even a lich that lost his head somehow?

I'm thinking that a classic medieval fantasy setting might be the best ticket at this point... but it might be appropriate to build a world like Eberron. How else can we re-skin what we've got so far?

I'm going to update the first post, to include a list of the things we've got so far.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-20, 05:21 PM

Maybe the voodoo is the source of the zombies? That's actually got a LOT of historical precendent. Maybe the headless horseman is a zombie king? Or even a lich that lost his head somehow?

Like the Voodoo angle. Although since the Headless Horseman was (according to most tellings) a Hessian Mercenary during the Revolutionary War, you could tie in this version with the past of the setting. Like, if there were a similar war at the founding of this America, then the Horseman is a warrior for the losing side that was cursed to guard a particular region against outsiders, particularly his own kind. But since centuries may have past since then, demographics have changed, and so everyone is considered an outsider by the spell requirements, and so the Horseman rides throughout the land at night, decapitating all who enter his territory, his boundaries marked by crossroads and old wooden bridges. Inside his territory is basically an undead realm for all those zombies you're so keen on.:smalltongue:

I'm thinking that a classic medieval fantasy setting might be the best ticket at this point... but it might be appropriate to build a world like Eberron. How else can we re-skin what we've got so far?

I'd personally set it either right at a Civil War style era or the 1890's. I had a setting like this once, but after trying to make American history more Medieval I gave up. Cowboys aren't the same without six-shooters. So, yeah. 1860-1890 would work best. You've still got vast, truly vast wilderness and deeply urban centers to explore. Also, more urban means more jazz, the true American music.:smallcool:

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-20, 06:16 PM

I'd personally set it either right at a Civil War style era or the 1890's. I had a setting like this once, but after trying to make American history more Medieval I gave up. Cowboys aren't the same without six-shooters. So, yeah. 1860-1890 would work best. You've still got vast, truly vast wilderness and deeply urban centers to explore. Also, more urban means more jazz, the true American music.:smallcool:

Here's my deal: I'm thinking of this from a pathfinder perspective, and I think the way they handle guns is laughable. I also like the idea of there being melee characters. I'm totally down for guns in the setting, but can we make it work with other weapons too? Is there a fix somewhere for the Gunslinger class, or just a better system for integrating guns?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-21, 02:57 AM

Here's my deal: I'm thinking of this from a pathfinder perspective, and I think the way they handle guns is laughable. I also like the idea of there being melee characters. I'm totally down for guns in the setting, but can we make it work with other weapons too? Is there a fix somewhere for the Gunslinger class, or just a better system for integrating guns?

You know...I've never looked at Pathfinder. I probably should.

Okay. I guess (accounting for my lack of knowledge on Pathfinder) the best bet would be to homebrew. If this America only has muskets and early breech-loaders, then melee is still a very viable option. Those old guns weren't particularly well known for accuracy or fast reload.

You could either handwave repeaters out, or perhaps in this setting luck is a quantifiable power available to some. If a shot should have hit, a PC can say "Luck!" and the shot magically is retconned into passing harmlessly through his clothes. George Washington is a good precedent. When he served with the British in the French-Indian War, two horses were shot out from under him and he later found four bullet holes in his coat. He spent his Luck points wisely.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-21, 12:37 PM

You could either handwave repeaters out, or perhaps in this setting luck is a quantifiable power available to some. If a shot should have hit, a PC can say "Luck!" and the shot magically is retconned into passing harmlessly through his clothes. George Washington is a good precedent. When he served with the British in the French-Indian War, two horses were shot out from under him and he later found four bullet holes in his coat. He spent his Luck points wisely.

Integrating luck into the game is something worth considering, and may actually be present in Pathfinder with the Gunslinger's "grit" ability. I feel like taking chances and catching breaks is a pretty central part of American history.

As far as firearms are concerned, what if we were to re-skin wands? A friend of mine made a pretty sweet sorcerer or bard (I can't remember which), who was basically a medieval cowboy, and used two wands of Fireball and Magic Missile the way you might use six-guns.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-21, 02:14 PM

I have this wonderful image in my head now: A cowboy holds out two wands and empties both into a bunch of outlaws. When he runs out of shots, the outlaws leap from cover to kill him, only to see his jacket has 50 wands while he's reaching for more. :smalltongue:

Machinekng

2012-01-21, 05:29 PM

Interesting.

If focusing on the idea of American mythology, here's a few more american myths and concepts.

-American Superiority: The idea that America is superior to all other nations in a variety of ways. This concept, while not nesecarily true, is believed by many Americans

-The Melting Pot/Salad Bowl: The concept that all Americans are descended from somewhere else, combined with the idea that an American can still be true to his/her ethniticity/nationality and still be a pariotic American.

-Freedom: America has a reverence for freedom. We fight wars for the sake of freedom. This coupled with a longstanding belief in free market capitalism.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-22, 04:05 PM

Interesting.
-American Superiority...
-The Melting Pot/Salad Bowl...
-Freedom...

I like it! After updating the first post, this is what it looks like we've got:

An Empire composed of immigrants (maybe refugees) from a continent across the sea.
A region in the east that's heavily-settled, and has a significant infrasctructure.
A region in the West that's essentially wild, still being settled.
At least one indigenous kingom (probably with some tribal cultures, too) that has either been destroyed, or is currently losing a war against The Empire.

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to set it in a medieval world. I get the feeling that it would keep the world from being a copy of America's history. Dungeon punk a la Eberron is definitely a possibility. Thoughts?

Also, I found a map like this (http://staffweb.psdschools.org/dswartz/fieldtrip/virtualimages/wis-map3.jpg) while chilling out at the history museum a few weeks ago, and it gave me an idea. The map for this setting could look generally like North America, but what if the Gulf of Mexico stretched all the way up to the top of, say, Missouri? That would provide a lot of coastline for things like voodoo swamps and piracy, but there would still be a land bridge to spur westward expansion.

Also: be sure to tell any good world builders you know about this project! I'd like to get a few more high-quality voices in the conversation.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-23, 01:55 AM

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to set it in a medieval world. I get the feeling that it would keep the world from being a copy of America's history. Dungeon punk a la Eberron is definitely a possibility. Thoughts?

Probably, although since technology and industry have always been something of a hallmark of American folklore (John Henry for instance, as well as the Disney short about Paul Bunyan), I'd suggest Clockpunk tech as the hottest tech around.

Also, I found a map like this (http://staffweb.psdschools.org/dswartz/fieldtrip/virtualimages/wis-map3.jpg) while chilling out at the history museum a few weeks ago, and it gave me an idea. The map for this setting could look generally like North America, but what if the Gulf of Mexico stretched all the way up to the top of, say, Missouri? That would provide a lot of coastline for things like voodoo swamps and piracy, but there would still be a land bridge to spur westward expansion.

Like this, maybe?
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/MRKUH.jpg

Put it together in an hour. I love maps. Close? Not close?

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-23, 11:10 AM

Very close! Did you use Ascension's tutorial? It's nice to see a fellow map lover!

The only things I don't like are the size of the desert, and possibly the size of the Gulf.

If I had to place a scale on it, this is roughly what I would imagine your map looks like:
http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/023/b/a/america__s_big_gulf_by_kungfuamadeus-d4nd127.jpg

With the gulf that big, travel from East to West would require either taking a boat or going far north. In the winter, the land route would be all but cut off. The thing is, I really like the idea of wagon trains headed out West, so it's something I'd like to protect. The desert also seems like it's a little too big. Why would they journey out West if there's nothing but a giant desert out there? Restricting it to the other side of that long gulf would be better.

Here's the scale I was envisioning:
http://th00.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2012/023/7/5/america__s_little_gulf_by_kungfuamadeus-d4nd0xr.jpg

There's enough water to make ship travel a viable option, but also enough land to tie the temperate parts of the land together.

As far as clockpunk is concerned, do you have any artwork or video recommendations to help me visualize it? Wikipedia basically says "robots in the renaissance," and if that's the case I figure we might as well do steampunk.

An Enemy Spy

2012-01-23, 11:14 AM

It should be the Old West. that era is the true age of legends of America.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-23, 11:30 AM

It should be the Old West. that era is the true age of legends of America.

Heh heh heh... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1KlzGJw_Gw) :smallbiggrin:

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-23, 04:16 PM

Very close! Did you use Ascension's tutorial? It's nice to see a fellow map lover!

:smallbiggrin: I learned at the feet of a master. Love doing maps, although I try to branch out in terms of styles, Ascension's is the best looking (for geographical maps anyway).

The only things I don't like are the size of the desert, and possibly the size of the Gulf.

I live out in California (southern) and so I generally see the West as a great big desert. There's some green from time to time, but on most maps I've seen it looks like everything from Eastern Texas to the coast is desert. So that explains my scale. I'll tone it down and see what you think. I'll also shrink the gulf size.

With the gulf that big, travel from East to West would require either taking a boat or going far north. In the winter, the land route would be all but cut off. The thing is, I really like the idea of wagon trains headed out West, so it's something I'd like to protect. The desert also seems like it's a little too big. Why would they journey out West if there's nothing but a giant desert out there? Restricting it to the other side of that long gulf would be better.

Like I said, it always looked to me like the west was all desert. And the route west historically was exceedingly dangerous regardless of weather. Still, I'll look to fixing it.

As far as clockpunk is concerned, do you have any artwork or video recommendations to help me visualize it? Wikipedia basically says "robots in the renaissance," and if that's the case I figure we might as well do steampunk.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/17-steampunk-clockpunk-mechanical-bugs-dmitriy-khristenko.jpg

Although really, Clockpunk can also include most of the tech seen in Fable 2, or the Golden Army in Hellboy 2. As long as clockwork mechanisms provide the movement and power. The problem with steampunk is that I feel it's hard to sell a medieval society with steampunk as opposed to the less advanced clockpunk. Also, Clocks were something made by hand, by craftsmen once. It would seem likely in a medieval society (ie: One lacking assembly lines and mass production) that this ethic would fit right in.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-23, 04:51 PM

:smallbiggrin: I learned at the feet of a master. Love doing maps, although I try to branch out in terms of styles, Ascension's is the best looking (for geographical maps anyway).

I'm a big fan of the Ascension tutorial, but I've been gravitating towards this tutorial (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?8086-Award-Winner-Saderan-%96-a-tutorial)because I prefer the way they handle mountains. I've also been scouring the internet in search of a nice tutorial on making "hand-drawn" looking maps without a wacom tablet.

I live out in California (southern) and so I generally see the West as a great big desert. There's some green from time to time, but on most maps I've seen it looks like everything from Eastern Texas to the coast is desert. So that explains my scale. I'll tone it down and see what you think. I'll also shrink the gulf size... And the route west historically was exceedingly dangerous regardless of weather.

We're on the same page now. I think making the westward journey dangerous is important, and I agree that the desert should dominate the western half of the continent. However, I want to preserve the "central plains," preferably on the western edge of the gulf. The continent's going to need a bread basket, and I like the idea of easterners having to cross the gulf to get there.

We also need to make sure there's some reason that the empire would expand all the way west. Or do we? I guess the gold rush is what spurred the initial big push out west, so maybe that's the way to go.

Although really, Clockpunk can also include most of the tech seen in Fable 2, or the Golden Army in Hellboy 2. As long as clockwork mechanisms provide the movement and power. The problem with steampunk is that I feel it's hard to sell a medieval society with steampunk as opposed to the less advanced clockpunk. Also, Clocks were something made by hand, by craftsmen once. It would seem likely in a medieval society (ie: One lacking assembly lines and mass production) that this ethic would fit right in.

I keep going back and forth! :smalltongue: The thing I like about a medieval setting is that it provides a solid break from the typical "American Myth" setting, not to mention that I think most RPG systems are medieval-themed anyway. The thing I DON'T like about a medieval setting is that it's hard to fuel that huge, "American" level of industry without resorting to magic.

The thing I like about steampunk is that it does provide the industry, but it does so at the cost of melee combat... maybe? I'm not sure.

What are your thoughts on the issue? Which do you think is more appropriate for American Mythology?

p.s. - I've updated the first post with a little more summary info.

Istari

2012-01-23, 05:18 PM

Make sure you think about what happens to the environment when the gulf is expanded like that. Anything near the Gulf is going to be considerably greener than normal.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-23, 05:23 PM

I'm a big fan of the Ascension tutorial, but I've been gravitating towards this tutorial (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?8086-Award-Winner-Saderan-%96-a-tutorial)because I prefer the way they handle mountains. I've also been scouring the internet in search of a nice tutorial on making "hand-drawn" looking maps without a wacom tablet.

Ooh! I'm the same way. I'd love to make hand-drawn maps without needing to spend money on a tablet. I've tried making mountains using pencil line and embossing, but it never looks right. I'll try out this tutorial. Thanks!

We're on the same page now. I think making the westward journey dangerous is important, and I agree that the desert should dominate the western half of the continent. However, I want to preserve the "central plains," preferably on the western edge of the gulf. The continent's going to need a bread basket, and I like the idea of easterners having to cross the gulf to get there.

We also need to make sure there's some reason that the empire would expand all the way west. Or do we? I guess the gold rush is what spurred the initial big push out west, so maybe that's the way to go.

Well, I shrunk the desert a bit, and I filled in about half of the gulf. I left a bit there because it provides more bayou-type areas.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/AMERKU2.jpg

As for why the Empire would go out west...The gold rush wasn't the original reason. It caused one of the bigger population shifts of the era, but the real reason America tried to expand west was slavery. Cotton destroys the land it's planted in, so you have to constantly move your plantations west. The major Slave States needed to move west, so they provided a lot of the push for the Mexican-American War (Texas split with Mexico in order to keep slaves). So, I don't know how you want to play that card. To extend a dwindling resource? To claim material wealth? A War? Dunno. Your thoughts?

I keep going back and forth! :smalltongue: The thing I like about a medieval setting is that it provides a solid break from the typical "American Myth" setting, not to mention that I think most RPG systems are medieval-themed anyway. The thing I DON'T like about a medieval setting is that it's hard to fuel that huge, "American" level of industry without resorting to magic.

The thing I like about steampunk is that it does provide the industry, but it does so at the cost of melee combat... maybe? I'm not sure.

:smallfrown: Thinking about it, I realize that the hand-crafted feel of Clockpunk doesn't fit well. Steampunk, or Teslapunk provides the whole Machine vs Man thing you typically see in American folklore (again, John Henry). Industrialization might be too big of a thing to ignore.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-23, 05:34 PM

Looks much better! As far as the desert is concerned, I think it would be safe to extend the golden-deserty terrain all the way up to those southern mountains, and only start to get green between those mountains and that arm of the gulf.

@Istari: I agree, especially East of the gulf. Even moreso than the U.S., I think the eastern portion of this continent is going to be heavily-forested. Or at least it was before the Empire arrived...

@Ninja: Slavery is something that I think is worth exploring, but I'm always SO hesitant to do it. What are your thoughts?

Just brainstorming a few reasons worth going out West:

More farmland is needed.
Initial exploriation sparked a war with an already-established western nation, and now people are moving out there to help the effort.
Some fancy resource is dicovered in the desert... maybe something that's a boon to steampunk and/or magical in nature?

I think Steampunk is just the way things are going to have to be. Not the worst of situations! Does anyone know of a good Steampunk-themed rpg? I'd love to take a look at the rules.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-23, 06:16 PM

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/AMERKU3.jpg

Alright. I swept the desert north, but I left the coast a bit green as a sort of California analogue.

Not sure about the slavery thing. I tried getting past it when I did a pseudo-American setting by having the mass-production of Homunculi remove the need for human slavery. For you, I don't know. It might be better to use Old World slavery as a model, but that was a lot different as it was debt slavery. American-style slavery was unheard of before recent times. We bred slaves. That was unusual, historically.

As to why people are moving west: Rapid industrialization is quickly destroying the agricultural base of the east. Expansion west is needed to keep food supplies up. While moving west, contact with natives and a similar empire (founded by a different nation around the same time as Pseudo-America) turned violent, leading to several wars, including a war of extinction against some of the natives. While moving west, Unobtainium was discovered in the deserts, leading to a new boom in mining and population westward.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-24, 01:17 PM

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-24, 07:28 PM

So we Americans essentially created our own slaves, eh? I think I have just the steampunk-appropriate solution (http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/IronWeasel/warforged.jpg).
Instead of being created as soldiers, they were/are being created as laborers. Unintentionally, they became sentient, feeling beings, and either there was a war fought to free them, or there's currently a lot of controversy about their enslaving.

I like it. But, just to make one point: Maybe the Warforged were always sentient. Look at it this way. Laborers are needed (in the fields, in the factories, etc) and so the wealthy landowning class basically pooled resources to fund a wizards' project to make these warforged (probably need to call them something else since they weren't made for war. Tin-men? Then you could play up a Wizard of Oz angle if you were inclined :smalltongue:). The finished product were technically living beings born full grown. So, the warforged looked and sounded like automatons basically because it takes a few years for their personalities to form (like babies).

When it was discovered that they had created a living race, the landowners just didn't care. If RL Americans were willing to enslave their own fellow man, I don't think they'd have a problem with something that looks more like a machine. The Abolitionist movement has sprung up because the industrialized region's population has risen to the point that factory jobs can't just rely on the warforged (or else MASSIVE jobless rate), and so they were allowed to leave and pursue other professions. But the agricultural region is absolutely economically dependent on warforged, and so can't free them without their economy tanking and their political power drying up.

That map looks great, by the way! I don't think it's essential, but if you want you're welcome to make the southern desert a little more arid.

I don't precisely know what you mean. Looks pretty gosh darn arid. I made the colors less solid to show ecological variety, so some parts of the desert don't look too bleak at times. I imagine it as more of a rocky desert rather than a dune desert, so we can still have cowboys...with swords... and wands... and...

For the unobtanium bit: I like it, so let's find out some reason why it's there. Maybe the briefly-mentioned alien race is out in the desert, and they've got the monopoly on the resource? Maybe the aliens are actually long-gone, but their civilization is left behind, ripe for the plundering. The natives left it alone because they feared the aliens or something, and maybe shun the desert entirely. Thoughts?

I refer you to my bad cowboy impression:

“Go West, young man! Out der, yonder Calixeria, ye can pract'clly pick a nugget o' Mana straight outta da river. Course, y'ed hafta deal wit 'em Unspeakable Beings what feed off the stuff. And those 'orrible Natives'll drive ye mad wit der hullabaloo like, “Why you kill River God?” an' “Smoke'em pipe”.

“On second thought, stay East young man. West is more trouble than it's worth!”

Next up: I want a New Orleans-esque city in the gulf, which will serve as the "Weird Tales (http://dreamsinthelichhouse.blogspot.com/2011/05/what-is-weird.html)" area of the continent. Zombies, queer magic, and dirty deeds are the Soup of the Day in this place. That big tributary system near the northernmost point of the gulf is a likely candidate but I'd almost like to have it further south, where it could be hotter. Thoughts? I'm okay with it being either an old city (Eastern region) or a new city (Western region), but direct access to the gulf is a must.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/merkaorleansmarked.jpg

These should be good places to start the search. The whole region I imagined to be just Louisiana but bigger. A would be my first choice, although D, H, and B are close seconds. C looks too far North, but that's just my opinion. E has the same advantages as A and D, that is being right in the center of East and West. I like H because it's right on the seaboard and could be both hurricane prone and a magnificent trade post. F and G are not my first choices, obviously. Although they are in prime swamp area, they might be too near the arid region.

Finally, I put down I with an asterisk because, while it would also be a good candidate, I would suggest making that the capital for the whole country. Kind swampy, trapped between better land. It's a dead ringer for DC.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-25, 12:28 PM

I like it. But, just to make one point: Maybe the Warforged were always sentient. Look at it this way. Laborers are needed (in the fields, in the factories, etc) and so the wealthy landowning class basically pooled resources to fund a wizards' project to make these warforged (probably need to call them something else since they weren't made for war. Tin-men? Then you could play up a Wizard of Oz angle if you were inclined :smalltongue:). The finished product were technically living beings born full grown. So, the warforged looked and sounded like automatons basically because it takes a few years for their personalities to form (like babies).

I like all of this, but not so much the name. It brings up an important question, though: How lighthearted should the tone of this setting be? How tongue-in-cheek? If it's supposed to be fairly lighthearted, then Tinmen would work just fine. If it's tone is a little more serious, what about Ironmen? That makes me think of railroad workers a la John Henry.

When it was discovered that they had created a living race, the landowners just didn't care. If RL Americans were willing to enslave their own fellow man, I don't think they'd have a problem with something that looks more like a machine. The Abolitionist movement has sprung up because the industrialized region's population has risen to the point that factory jobs can't just rely on the warforged (or else MASSIVE jobless rate), and so they were allowed to leave and pursue other professions. But the agricultural region is absolutely economically dependent on warforged, and so can't free them without their economy tanking and their political power drying up.

I like it.

I don't precisely know what you mean. Looks pretty gosh darn arid. I made the colors less solid to show ecological variety, so some parts of the desert don't look too bleak at times. I imagine it as more of a rocky desert rather than a dune desert, so we can still have cowboys...with swords... and wands... and...

Looking at it again, I think it's fine.

What do you picture the scale of this place being? I imagine the RL Canadian border just north of those Rocky Mountain equivalents, roughly where the land starts to turn to a paler green. I imagine the RL Mexican border roughly where those southern desert mountains pop up, where the desert expands to the East.

Thinking about real-world geography, we should probably move the trees on the eastern slopes of the Rockies to the western slopes (due to weather patterns) and get rid of that tributary system to the east of the Rockies. That would be the Great Plains area, which wouldn't receive all that much consistent rainfall.

These should be good places to start the search. The whole region I imagined to be just Louisiana but bigger. A would be my first choice, although D, H, and B are close seconds. C looks too far North, but that's just my opinion. E has the same advantages as A and D, that is being right in the center of East and West. I like H because it's right on the seaboard and could be both hurricane prone and a magnificent trade post. F and G are not my first choices, obviously. Although they are in prime swamp area, they might be too near the arid region.

A is a good choice, but my only worry is that it's too far north. A hot, sticky swamp with really mild winters is exactly what this city needs. Sorry to suggest this (because I understand the work it implies), but how would you feel about moving that whole long, western arm of the gulf south? Going so far as to close the gap between locations A and F?

After giving it some thought, I agree completely about I being a likely choice for the capital of the Empire. While I'm thinking about it, C might be a nice location for a St. Louis or Chicago-style city.

Hahaha, I just noticed that you've named the maps "Amerkuh." Bravo, good sir.

Has anyone thought about other names for the Empire, or for any cities? I figure we will need to start a separate thread soon to start the "final draft" is this discussion, and knowing what to title it would be helpful.

I haven't thought about a name for the Empire/continent, but here are a few city names:

Redemption - Western Town
Hidden Lake - Could go anywhere

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-25, 06:01 PM

Mining for Inspiration in all the usual spots.

Steam Punk (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SteampunkIndex?from=Main.GaslampFantasyTropes): This will be a linchpin of the setting, and will be especially prominent in the eastern region. Might also have a strong presence (airships?) in the gulf.
Cattle Punk (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CattlePunk): The natural progression as one moves west across the country.
Weird West (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeirdWest): Elements from this could be present when dealing with these aliens we keep mentioning. There's also plenty of room for a race of magical natives (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNativeAmerican).
Gaslamp Fantasy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GaslampFantasy): This sort of thing could see a lot of action in the northeast, a la Cthulhu and his cronies. Could also see a lot of play in the New Orleans equivalent.
Gothic Horror Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IndexOfGothicHorrorTropes): Plenty of good ideas here.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-25, 06:17 PM

I like all of this, but not so much the name. It brings up an important question, though: How lighthearted should the tone of this setting be? How tongue-in-cheek? If it's supposed to be fairly lighthearted, then Tinmen would work just fine. If it's tone is a little more serious, what about Ironmen? That makes me think of railroad workers a la John Henry.

Ironmen sounds awesome. Tone? You started the thread, so that's up to you. I can work with either. :smallsmile:

What do you picture the scale of this place being? I imagine the RL Canadian border just north of those Rocky Mountain equivalents, roughly where the land starts to turn to a paler green. I imagine the RL Mexican border roughly where those southern desert mountains pop up, where the desert expands to the East.

I imagined Pseudo-Canada (Watchalcallit) would be just a touch more north so that Pseudo-America would have some towns on the southern banks of those northern lakes/seas. Pseudo-Mexico (Somborados) would start on the south side of those desert mountains like you said. I have no sense of scale, so asking me how many miles across the Empire is pretty futile. Like asking a cat how the water feels :smalltongue:.

Thinking about real-world geography, we should probably move the trees on the eastern slopes of the Rockies to the western slopes (due to weather patterns) and get rid of that tributary system to the east of the Rockies. That would be the Great Plains area, which wouldn't receive all that much consistent rainfall.

A is a good choice, but my only worry is that it's too far north. A hot, sticky swamp with really mild winters is exactly what this city needs. Sorry to suggest this (because I understand the work it implies), but how would you feel about moving that whole long, western arm of the gulf south? Going so far as to close the gap between locations A and F?

Done.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/Merkuh4.jpg

Hahaha, I just noticed that you've named the maps "Amerkuh." Bravo, good sir.

:smallbiggrin:

No names come to mind yet, but I'll think about it.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-25, 08:52 PM

Ironmen sounds awesome. Tone? You started the thread, so that's up to you. I can work with either. :smallsmile:

Ironmen it is! Whenever I think about Steampunk, there are plenty of potential tones that come to mind, and I don't know that we need to be picky. The US is a big place in real life, and there are plenty of different atmospheres. Let's plan to include plenty of opportunities for both serious and comedic storytelling.

I imagined Pseudo-Canada (Watchalcallit) would be just a touch more north so that Pseudo-America would have some towns on the southern banks of those northern lakes/seas. Pseudo-Mexico (Somborados) would start on the south side of those desert mountains like you said. I have no sense of scale, so asking me how many miles across the Empire is pretty futile. Like asking a cat how the water feels :smalltongue:.

Betrayed? (http://www.stevenhumour.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/wet-cat.jpg)

Call me crazy, but "Atchalca" and "Borado" are decent names.

The map looks great! I think the New Orleans place should be right on the stretch of land you created. Any chance we could get some swampy lakes slapped into that region?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-25, 09:47 PM

Betrayed? (http://www.stevenhumour.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/wet-cat.jpg)
...
Call me crazy, but "Atchalca" and "Borado" are decent names.

The map looks great! I think the New Orleans place should be right on the stretch of land you created. Any chance we could get some swampy lakes slapped into that region?

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/Merkuh5.jpg

Also, that pic you linked to? You are a monster. :smallfurious: :smallwink: :smalltongue:

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-25, 11:02 PM

http://th07.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2012/025/d/7/merkuh_rough_draft_by_kungfuamadeus-d4nmmhb.jpg

Here's what I'm thinking. The x to the east is the location of the capital. The x to the west is the New Orleans equivalent ("Narrowton"?) and the gateway to the west. The x to the north is a grain/timber hub, and is a Chicago equivalent.

Omeganaut

2012-01-25, 11:27 PM

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-26, 12:16 AM

Here's what I'm thinking. The x to the east is the location of the capital. The x to the west is the New Orleans equivalent ("Narrowton"?) and the gateway to the west. The x to the north is a grain/timber hub, and is a Chicago equivalent.

How about Coterois for the Big Easy? I put Cote (coast) and the word for narrow together. And "Chicago" could be Planton (as in "Plains Town").

Also, a big part of the myths and legends that sprung up around the west was the sheer size and emptiness of them. Indians could be hiding behind the next hill, or days away. You swore you could see anything coming for miles, but something you don't recognize just spooked your cattle. Those distances made the wild west what it was. Reducing that element as much as you are will cause issues. I'd extend the gulf from the Chesapeake instead of the Gulf of Mexico if I were making the map. Also make sure you have plenty of deep forest in the eastern half, it feed the first colonial fantasies as well as much of the Eastern tribes' beliefs.

Can't speak for Zap, but as for the map, I'm pretty sure size won't be an issue. If I had to make a judgment call, I'd say that from the East Coast to those western mountains is roughly the size of RL America. Pseudo-America is quite a bit bigger, cause that's the kinda space you need for Tall Tales.:smalltongue:

:smallannoyed:That joke sounded better in my head.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-26, 08:58 AM

I feel like you need to re-evaluate all the things that have gone into the American mythos. I will try and list all of them, but I probably will forget at least one. Also, are you including anything on Middle or Southern America?

Mexican (Evil beings in the Night, Holy beings to protect us)
English (witch trials, Dealing with the Devil)
Urban Legends (sewer crocodile, Headless Horseman, Rip Van Winkle)
Based on Fact (inventors, generals, other celebs)
Cowboy (Some superstition, gunslingers, outlaws)
African (Slave beliefs, superstition, song)
Carribean (voodoo, mind control, diseases)

Native American
Pueblo (Coyote, Raven)
Northern tribes (Brother Bear-esque)
Plains ( vision quest, Wendigo)
East Coast (competing tribes, clan patrons)
Central American (Mayan Calendar, Aztec anthromorphicism)

If you choose to include southern America, include some of the myths of the native rainforest tribes, the Inca, and the Spanish and Portuguese settlers. I confess to not knowing much about their beliefs.

This is great info, thanks! I always prefer to have short, distilled examples of the various cultures at work, so this will help us out a lot. Honestly, I had been wanting to work on this pretty early in the process, but we got swept up into the map, and I put this on the back burner. Any chance you'd want to stick around and help flesh out the cultures a bit?

Also, a big part of the myths and legends that sprung up around the west was the sheer size and emptiness of them. Indians could be hiding behind the next hill, or days away. You swore you could see anything coming for miles, but something you don't recognize just spooked your cattle. Those distances made the wild west what it was. Reducing that element as much as you are will cause issues. I'd extend the gulf from the Chesapeake instead of the Gulf of Mexico if I were making the map. Also make sure you have plenty of deep forest in the eastern half, it feed the first colonial fantasies as well as much of the Eastern tribes' beliefs.

I'm not so much worried about this. I had been assuming that this landmass was about as big as the US from coast-to-coast, but I like what Ninja is saying.

Still, even if it's only the size of the US, let's crunch some numbers. The whole continent is about 2,500 miles wide. In the west (where most of those "wide open emptiness" stories take place), that southern desert is about 1000 miles wide and about as tall, meaning that it would take a solid month of travel on horseback to make it from any one side to another. Even that northern neck would be about 450 miles wide, which is almost 15 days of nothing but travel on horseback. Both of those travel times would basically double when you're talking about carriages and wagons.

So the neck is actually narrower than in the RL US, but that southern desert is a good deal bigger. In my mind, all we've really done is take Mexico, flip it upside down, and call it good. Because of that (and especially because Americans love big things), we've created a situation where the US has a reason to prolong its war against Mexico, which I figure makes for more Gaming fodder anyway. :smallsmile:

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-26, 05:55 PM

How about Coterois for the Big Easy? I put Cote (coast) and the word for narrow together. And "Chicago" could be Planton (as in "Plains Town").

I'm digging Coterois big time. However, "Planton" sounds a little weird to me. This city is going to be a gateway to the north, it will be a railroad hub, a meeting place between the plains and the sea... what else can we come up with? I'm even okay with something as straight forward as Grass City, but that sounds a little too "small town" for me.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-26, 06:15 PM

I'm digging Coterois big time. However, "Planton" sounds a little weird to me. This city is going to be a gateway to the north, it will be a railroad hub, a meeting place between the plains and the sea... what else can we come up with? I'm even okay with something as straight forward as Grass City, but that sounds a little too "small town" for me.

Railtown. Bigtime. Venteux (windy). Zweibel (onion, as in The Big Onion).

Or, Neugotham. As in, New Gotham. I guess The Dark Knight was filmed there a lot, so they use that as a nickname. Maybe a variation? Dunno.

TheMeMan

2012-01-26, 11:05 PM

This is great info, thanks! I always prefer to have short, distilled examples of the various cultures at work, so this will help us out a lot. Honestly, I had been wanting to work on this pretty early in the process, but we got swept up into the map, and I put this on the back burner. Any chance you'd want to stick around and help flesh out the cultures a bit?

Although I didn't post that message, let me help flesh out some Mexican Gods from colonial periods for a bit of background, and a short description of each:

Xipe-Totec: Our Lord the Flayed One, God of Old Corn(Dried Corn), Fertility, Warfare, Rebirth/Renewal, Gold & Silver Smiths, warrior sacrifice; Depicted as a Golden Skinned God (Literally and Figuratively, depending on context) who wore the flayed skins of sacrificed warriors. Both revered highly and feared to an extent(Due to being an aspect Tetzcatlipoca-more on that later).

Tlaloc: God of storms, rain, and Lightning. Any who were struck by lightning were said to have been "chosen" by Tlaloc, and became "mini-Tlalocs" so-to-speak. Each of these Little Tlalocs would cast thunderbolts in a Storm, and cause the rain to fall. Extremely Old God predating Aztecs and Mayan(I forget which period he first appears in Mayan). Depicting as a man with a reptilian face and crocodile like features wearing jade "goggles" over his eyes. Once again, both feared and revered(Brought life through rain, but also destruction through thunderstorms).

Huitzilopochtli: Hummingbird on the Left, the patron god of the Aztecs. He was the left handed God of War who sprang from his mother's womb fully armed and armored in war attire. He slew his brothers and sisters(Who had entrapped his mother) who later became the stars. His name refers to the fact that his voice was said to be like that of a hummingbird's wingflaps: Fleeting, quick, and very quiet. Led the Aztecs to lake Texcoco from their mythical homeland of Azatlan. Depicted as a normal-ish Man.

Tetzcatlipoca: Smoking Mirror, Brother & Rival to Quetzalcoatl. He was a vengeful God that was feared and revered extremely heavily. The original rivalry with his brother began over means of Sacrifice: Tetzcatlipoca demanded human sacrifices, whereas Quetzalcoatl demanded animal and plant sacrifices. In some stories is one of the four main creators of the current world(There are several versions). He is a tutelary god, and capable of traversing the Heavens, Earth, and the Underwold unheeded. Associated with Obsidian, which when highly polished was used in rituals to "see" into the various supernatural realms. Called the Invisible One at times, was always watching every action of individuals. Has Four Aspects, each associated with a different cardinal direction. Each Aspect is effectively Tetzcatlipoca, although still being a distinct being of their own. The most well-known and heavily worshipped was Xipe Totec, also known as Red Tetzcatlipoca. Depicted as a dark-skinned person with a yellow painted stripe on his face. Missing one of his feet, and in it's place has an Obsidian Mirror.

Quetzalcoatl: The Feathered Serpent. Quetzal has many different roles: At times he is a culture Hero, at other a mythical person of great wisdom and ability, at others a God and brother to Tetzcatlipoca, and still at others a primordial being beyond the power of the Gods themselves. He is all of these things at once, and each is different and separate from the other. The Primordial Quetzalcoatl is truly as the name suggests: A feathered serpent of great power and magnitude. Controller of the Sun, the Winds, and bringer of all life(At defender against darkness), the Primordial Form is perhaps the most heavily worshipped deity in Mesoamerica(Next to Tlaloc, another Primordial deity). The Second, that of the God, is the next most powerful incarnation. Quetzal the God was the "boundary maker" between the Earth and Sky. Some creation myths place him(With Tetzcatlipoca) as a main figure. As the Culture Hero & Mythical Figure, he was true flesh and blood. His argument over sacrifice with Tetzcatlipoca was an important impetus for the different forms of sacrifice practiced. This argument led to the departure of Quetzal the culture hero from the area to a place "in the west". Quetzal differs in depiction based on which version you are talking about. He also had the Aspect of Ehacatl, the Wind God and God of Movement(Movement being incredibly important in Aztec belief systems). In this form, he appears as an anthropomorphic figure with a "Bill", similar to that on a duck. In other forms, he his pale-skinned and Bearded.

If any of this piques your interest, I'd be more than willing to continue the list of Mesoamerican(Mainly Aztec) Deities.

I also know a few Ojibwe, Sioux, and other Northern tribe myths.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-26, 11:19 PM

Although I didn't post that message, let me help flesh out some Mexican Gods from colonial periods for a bit of background, and a short description of each:

*cue awesome information*

Thanks!! This is some really good stuff... and why does a lot of it remind me of House Bolton from A Song of Ice and Fire??

Here's what I'm thinking. I've been looking for a way to work in this potentially-ancient alien thing, and in another setting of mine I had this idea where the gods of the present civilization are--unbeknown to the present folk--ascended mortals from a previous era.

What if the Boradoans worshipped a council of aliens that ruled them thousands of years ago? The aliens left a long time ago, leaving their technology behind, but the Boradoans lived in such fear of their new gods that they refuse to go near it. They live in the northern portion of the desert and refuse to let anyone go further south, which gives the Empire a reason to go to war with them. Thoughts?

If any of this piques your interest, I'd be more than willing to continue the list of Mesoamerican(Mainly Aztec) Deities.

I also know a few Ojibwe, Sioux, and other Northern tribe myths.

It certainly does, but I don't know how much I want to flesh out the southern folk. Any info you have on northern American myths would be greatly appreciated, though. I'm thinking that the conflict between the tribes and the Empire is going to be a big deal.

Omeganaut

2012-01-27, 03:01 AM

I will confess to not having memorized much of the myths I mentioned, so I don't know that I would be a great source. However, your thoughts regarding aliens sparked some historical knowledge.

The Anasazi were ancient pueblo dwellers that had more advanced buildings and crop use than the pueblo Indians that were found by the Europeans. They created extremely elaborate cities, and possessed trade goods from everywhere else in the Americas. They hauled lumber along paths nearly as impressive as was required for Stonehenge. All of the pueblo ancestor myths identify their tribe with these "ancients". Then, in about a generation, all of their cities were abandoned. There is limited evidence of droughts, pestilence, and crop failure, but nothing more than those people had weathered before. And that still wouldn't explain the sudden move away from Every city they had established and the dispersal of their peoples. With a little renaming, you could use a similar myth and tie in your aliens. Perhaps all of the natives were once part of that civilization.

Also, most of the North American natives have creation myths involving humanity emerging from a hole in the ground along with most of the animals. Also important to natives is their land, especially the further west you go. The natives believe their land is sacred, and will not allow themselves to be completely removed from their land except by overpowering force.

TheMeMan

2012-01-27, 09:03 AM

Thanks!! This is some really good stuff... and why does a lot of it remind me of House Bolton from A Song of Ice and Fire??

Here's what I'm thinking. I've been looking for a way to work in this potentially-ancient alien thing, and in another setting of mine I had this idea where the gods of the present civilization are--unbeknown to the present folk--ascended mortals from a previous era.

What if the Boradoans worshipped a council of aliens that ruled them thousands of years ago? The aliens left a long time ago, leaving their technology behind, but the Boradoans lived in such fear of their new gods that they refuse to go near it. They live in the northern portion of the desert and refuse to let anyone go further south, which gives the Empire a reason to go to war with them. Thoughts?

I don't know much about Song of F&I, so I haven't the slightest. The major thing to remember about Mesoamerican Pantheons is that there was a God for EVERYTHING. Gambling, prostitutes, merchants, guides throw the underworld, various underworld deities, Old Corn, New Corn, Corn Planting, Gold, Silver, several Water deities, Jade, Priests, War, Sacrifice... the list goes on and on. If you can think of it, there was a separate God for it. That said, I won't go into detail, as you're not going to focus on it, but it is something to keep in mind. Also, the concept of "Different but the same" is very important: Certain gods had different aspects of themselves that were separate entities but still the same as the original god.

As for the Aliens concept, it's a fairly tried-and-true concept for fiction involving the various mythos. Nothing wrong with that, mind you. The Deities and such were strange beings of actual flesh, capable of miraculous endeavors.

It certainly does, but I don't know how much I want to flesh out the southern folk. Any info you have on northern American myths would be greatly appreciated, though. I'm thinking that the conflict between the tribes and the Empire is going to be a big deal.

Alright, perhaps to start with we should go with creation myths, and one the best known, and most common, is the story of Lone Man. Now remember, there are various versions and myths involving him, and I'm going to relate a couple. One thing to keep in mind is that almost all Native American myths relate towards behavior: Either explaining why the group does something, or why a person should act in a certain way over another.

Various Algonkian(Northern Tribe) Creation Myths: Long ago, there was no land, only water, upon the earth. Otter decided to create Land, and dove deep into the water to find mud to create land. Down he dove, but he could not reach the bottom. Turtle tried as well, but could not reach the bottom. Finally, Duck attempted to reach the bottom. Down he went, deep below surface, deeper than Otter, deeper than Turtle. He wasn't sure if he could make it, and was about to return to the surface. However, just as he was about to turn around, he saw the bottom of the Lake. With every bit of energy he had, he went to the bottom, and barely was able to touch it with his bill. He was able to get a small bit of mud onto his bill, and swam to the surface. When he surfaced, this mud became land. Note: Some versions tell that this occurs after the flood myth related later.

Mandan Creation: The First involves the creation of the village(concept) and the earth(place). I'm paraphrasing, so keep this in mind. Basically, long ago Lone Man and First Creator created the Earth. The Northern Lands were created by Lone Man, and the Southern lands created by First Creator. Lone Man created domesticated crops, the villages(the concept of them, so to speak), the various goods needed for life within the "village", etc. The Southern lands had everything wild: The hills, the trees, the wild animals, and unknown expanses. At this time there were no people in the world above: Instead they all lived deep underground. A few found their way to the surface, and settled in the Northern Lands, becoming the first people. Others remained below, and depending on the given myth became Bears(Sometimes referred to Old Men), or spirits of the earth, or what have you(There are dozens of different versions). The people that came to the surface, however, became the original people.

Flood Myth: It was after some time that a great flood came to the lands, threatening the villages that people resided in. It was at this time that villages were found everywhere within the land, from the valley bottoms to the middle of the plains. In fear of his life, Lone Man climbed the tallest hill to escape from the coming waters. Depending on the exact version, Lone Man was the only person left(Once again, we enter into the different but same territory of a culture-hero who happens to also be a God, but is not really). It is for this reason the the villages are built on the tops of bluffs and hills.

Wendigo: Essentially, Wendigo refers to cannibals. It's a tad different depending on the exact nature of the story, but essentially once an individual devours human flesh, they crave nothing else. They go mad and will do anything to eat human flesh again. Further, they are always hungry, and never satiated. Some myths state that the person transforms into a horrid beast, others that the person remains mostly "human". Note that the depiction of the Wendigo is that of a humanoid he is emaciated, skin pulled tightly over their bones, and a rather horrifying remnant of what was once human. That said, it really depends on which groups your talking about. The Wendigo represents everything that is opposite of "human" and "village": They are greedy, gluttonous, destructive beasts who have no semblance of recognition for society.

Note: I have many, many more, and will post more later. I'd go with Lone Man at the very least as a major entity. Myths involving him are widespread, and he is about as close to a "Deity" as you get within the mythos. He essentially represents what people should be, and strive to be. He is an example for man-kind, in essence. The Wendigo would make a great monster concept, also.

Note #2: Another important figure, which I will touch on later, is Coyote. Thing to remember about him is that he is an incorrigible trickster, although extremely dimwitted. He often has bouts with Raven, with Raven often times besting him with superior wit.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-27, 12:00 PM

The Anasazi were ancient pueblo dwellers that had more advanced buildings and crop use than the pueblo Indians that were found by the Europeans. They created extremely elaborate cities, and possessed trade goods from everywhere else in the Americas. They hauled lumber along paths nearly as impressive as was required for Stonehenge. All of the pueblo ancestor myths identify their tribe with these "ancients". Then, in about a generation, all of their cities were abandoned. There is limited evidence of droughts, pestilence, and crop failure, but nothing more than those people had weathered before. And that still wouldn't explain the sudden move away from Every city they had established and the dispersal of their peoples. With a little renaming, you could use a similar myth and tie in your aliens. Perhaps all of the natives were once part of that civilization.

I like it! So we've got these southern alien gods with their advanced technology, and we've got these Boradoans who live in the north of the desert, preventing anyone from coming closer to the Place of the Gods. Maybe a faction of the Boradoans sought to use the Gods' Gifts, and were expelled further north by their brethren, turning into these Anasazi. The Anasazi grew into a huge kingdom with the boon of their technology, and could serve as another major threat to the expanding Empire. Thoughts?

Also, most of the North American natives have creation myths involving humanity emerging from a hole in the ground along with most of the animals. Also important to natives is their land, especially the further west you go. The natives believe their land is sacred, and will not allow themselves to be completely removed from their land except by overpowering force.

Coming out of the ground... what if the Rocky Mountains were one of their most sacred places? They consider it the birthplace of all life, and guard it fiercely? The rocky mountains become a sort of bastion of native power?

Alright, perhaps to start with we should go with creation myths, and one the best known, and most common, is the story of Lone Man. Now remember, there are various versions and myths involving him, and I'm going to relate a couple. One thing to keep in mind is that almost all Native American myths relate towards behavior: Either explaining why the group does something, or why a person should act in a certain way over another.

*cue info*

I dig it. Creation of the world, creation of society, and the destruction and salvation of society. We can use all of that. Especially the hilltop thing, which enforces the Rockies idea above.

For wendigos, I think I like the idea of monsters being created via transformation. Any person can become a monster if they're not careful. It could also be the fragment myths from a zombie onslaught hundreds of years ago.

I picture some forbidden place (a huge canyon, maybe?) where it is said that these Wendigo still live. Maybe sometimes people go to this place, but never return?

As far as native cultures, here's what it looks like we've got (Green=we've got it; Red=I want it):

Boradoans: Guardians of the desert. I'm getting strong Proud Warrior Race Guy vibes from this.
Anasazi (needs a new name): Advanced kingdom that lives in the neck of the desert. Poses a threat to the Empire.
Mountain Tribes: Guard the mountain from incursions, possible alliance with subterranean race. I'm imagining these guys as primitive, but still effective because they're stealthy. Also, because of modern-day Colorado, I imagine them being rock climbers, athletes, and stoners. :smalltongue:
Northeast Coast Tribes: I like the idea of fisher folk in the Northeast. These guy may be pretty peaceful, and may actually form an alliance with the Empire.
Plains tribe: Wanderers and warriors. Teepees and Buffalo. Fighting a losing battle against the Empire.
Eastern tribes: Either extinct due to the Empire, very nearly extinct, or fled to the north or west.

I think it's worth mentioning that while these cultures are based off of Native Americans, I don't think these races necessarily need to be. We can make them look however we'd like, and it may be nice to use standard fantasy races. Thoughts?

TheMeMan

2012-01-27, 01:01 PM

As far as native cultures, here's what it looks like we've got (Green=we've got it; Red=I want it):

Boradoans: Guardians of the desert. I'm getting strong Proud Warrior Race Guy vibes from this.
Anasazi (needs a new name): Advanced kingdom that lives in the neck of the desert. Poses a threat to the Empire.
Mountain Tribes: Guard the mountain from incursions, possible alliance with subterranean race. I'm imagining these guys as primitive, but still effective because they're stealthy. Also, because of modern-day Colorado, I imagine them being rock climbers, athletes, and stoners. :smalltongue:
Northeast Coast Tribes: I like the idea of fisher folk in the Northeast. These guy may be pretty peaceful, and may actually form an alliance with the Empire.
Plains tribe: Wanderers and warriors. Teepees and Buffalo. Fighting a losing battle against the Empire.
Eastern tribes: Either extinct due to the Empire, very nearly extinct, or fled to the north or west.

I think it's worth mentioning that while these cultures are based off of Native Americans, I don't think these races necessarily need to be. We can make them look however we'd like, and it may be nice to use standard fantasy races. Thoughts?

I can comment to fully right now, gotta get going. That said, I would reconsider the Northwest Coast people as being "peaceful". They were extremely war-like, with almost constant inter-tribal fighting occurring(Due to a very small amount of land available and dense populations). They were not exactly a friendly bunch of folk, with an extremely stratified society (With very clear Chiefs who held almost complete control over the village-something that was actually very rare for a single figure to have in most of the American tribes).

That said, looks decent so far. I'll give some history on the Real-Life regions when I get back to help you out even more. That said, don't assume that all Plains folk were nomadic. The Mandans had massive earth-lodge villages(Numbering, in some cases, in the thousands for population). They were centerred right smack-dab in the middle of the Northern Plains on the Missouri River in North Dakota. However, it still works. It might be an interesting note that the Village complex was predominant in Pre-Contact periods, and highly Nomadic folk were largely the result of the inter-Tribal conflicts, warfare, and competition for resources that was a direct result of the European incursion into areas east of the plains.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-27, 01:42 PM

I can comment to fully right now, gotta get going. That said, I would reconsider the Northwest Coast people as being "peaceful". They were extremely war-like, with almost constant inter-tribal fighting occurring(Due to a very small amount of land available and dense populations). They were not exactly a friendly bunch of folk, with an extremely stratified society (With very clear Chiefs who held almost complete control over the village-something that was actually very rare for a single figure to have in most of the American tribes).

First off, I don't think I want this to be a 100% translation of American history and culture. I like the idea of taking inspiration from history, but I want to make it our own.

That said, I like the idea of at least one of the regions of natives being friendly toward the Empire. My first thought was the mountain people, but then I fell in love with the idea of those mountains being sacred to all the natives, which kind of removed that option from the table. I just threw out the Northeasterners as an idea because fishing is a pretty peaceful activity, but I'm not married to that notion just now. That said, the power being focused in just one individual is common ground between those Northeasterners and the Empire.

What about the plains people? Maybe they took to being nomadic because they've turned into teamsters for the Empire?

That said, looks decent so far. I'll give some history on the Real-Life regions when I get back to help you out even more. That said, don't assume that all Plains folk were nomadic. The Mandans had massive earth-lodge villages(Numbering, in some cases, in the thousands for population). They were centerred right smack-dab in the middle of the Northern Plains on the Missouri River in North Dakota. However, it still works. It might be an interesting note that the Village complex was predominant in Pre-Contact periods, and highly Nomadic folk were largely the result of the inter-Tribal conflicts, warfare, and competition for resources that was a direct result of the European incursion into areas east of the plains.

That would provide dungeon fodder too! We could exaggerate and say that the plains people built huge underground cities (inspired by their legends about coming from holes in the earth), and then abandoned them when the Empire started meddling.

TheMeMan

2012-01-27, 05:30 PM

First off, I don't think I want this to be a 100% translation of American history and culture. I like the idea of taking inspiration from history, but I want to make it our own.

That said, I like the idea of at least one of the regions of natives being friendly toward the Empire. My first thought was the mountain people, but then I fell in love with the idea of those mountains being sacred to all the natives, which kind of removed that option from the table. I just threw out the Northeasterners as an idea because fishing is a pretty peaceful activity, but I'm not married to that notion just now. That said, the power being focused in just one individual is common ground between those Northeasterners and the Empire.

What about the plains people? Maybe they took to being nomadic because they've turned into teamsters for the Empire?

That would provide dungeon fodder too! We could exaggerate and say that the plains people built huge underground cities (inspired by their legends about coming from holes in the earth), and then abandoned them when the Empire started meddling.

Oh, no doubt on the subject of it being loosely based on American Indian tribes. That said, I'm a firm believer in have as much background info as possible.

As for the Plains folk being friendly to the Empire, that makes a bit of sense actually if you view the historical context that you basing it off of. The Plains Indians were relatively friendly to the Europeans for a great deal of time, and contributed a great deal of trade. Much of the buffalo hides up until the railroads were made came pretty much solely from trade with Plains Indians, as well as other animal furs and goods. It really wasn't until massive settlement expansion in the area that you start to see massive conflict between the groups.

An interesting tidbit to note, also, is that during this period various tribes coalesced into extremely large settlements in South Dakota(For the most part), and in other areas along the Missouri. It wasn't uncommon to have the Sioux, Arikara, and Cheyenne tribes all living in a single village.

Another interesting thing to keep in mind is the interaction between the Plains Indians and the Algonquian Indians(Northern Woodland area-Minnesota, much of Southern Canada, Ohio, etc). The short version is they despised one another. And this was not a product of European interaction, either, as there is a great deal of evidence that they two groups more or less were at constant conflict in Pre-Contact periods. Feuds between various folk were as old as the oral histories went back, basically. Of note is that many of the Algonquian Tribes would paint themselves from head to toe in red before they went to war.

To give you an idea of how much they disliked each other, the word "Sioux" is an insulting term in the Ojibwa language! It's not a Dakota term at all, and the name comes from the fact that the Ojibwa were in more contact with Europeans and earlier(Being from a bit further East, and more accessible), and couldn't help but insult their neighbors when asked about them. It is essentially calling them "Little Snakes". Close meaning in English would be "Little Bastards".

That all said, what would be even better than a friendly Plains folk would be a friendly Algonquian folk between the Plains and the Empire proper, with said group being in constant conflict of some sort or another with the Plains people. They were almost entirely left to their own devices, and did not have the history of major conflict with Europeans.

As for the underground complexes, I think that's a great idea actually. Would fit the bill perfectly.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-27, 06:39 PM

All of that sounds good, but I'm completely lost about what you're trying to say here:

That all said, what would be even better than a friendly Plains folk would be a friendly Algonquian folk between the Plains and the Empire proper, with said group being in constant conflict of some sort or another with the Plains people. They were almost entirely left to their own devices, and did not have the history of major conflict with Europeans.

Are you saying that the Algonquin should be physically between the Plains Folk and the Empire? And that they should be something like guerilla terrorists against the Plains Folk? That could be awesome.

I made this just now. Bear in mind, I made it based on this morning's info, so of course it's already not up to date. :smalltongue:

http://th06.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/027/b/1/merkuh_peoples_rough_draft_by_kungfuamadeus-d4nsvji.jpg

I imagine this to be a map representing the general spread of races/cultures/whatever across the continent. It's definitely not a map of actual nations/states. Here's the breakdown:

Purple represents Imperials. Manifest destiny and all that.

Yellow in the north represents the plains people. Considering the "let's push out the natives" attitude that we've established for the Empire, it would be reasonable to say that the Algonquin (name pending) folk got pushed out onto the plains too, and are currently fighting the normal plains folk.

Grey is the mountain men, fiercely guarding their homeland.

White is the Frost Peoples, chillin like they do. Could be hostile or friendly, I don't have any basis or opinion right now.

Red on the Western side is for the Northwesterners (I've been calling them Northeasterners this whole time! Whoops!). Fishers and such. Probably hostile.

Blue is for the Anasazi (again, name pending). Advanced culture (maybe magic instead of steampunk?) and at war with the Empire.

Green is for the Boradoans. Sweating in the desert while they guard their sacred spot.

Dark Red in the desert is for the Place of the Gods. I imagine it being a Steampunk Area 51.

Black is for a race of swamp people. I think it'd be cool if that whole region was basically worthless. The Empire officially claims it, but it's totally unsettled.

These are pretty lumpy categories. I imagine them showing the various races, and each race could (probably will) have several different cultures therein. Thoughts?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-27, 07:16 PM

Just adding my two cents to things:

Purple represents Imperials. Manifest destiny and all that.

I assume that any Natives living in the purple would have already been absorbed and/or exterminated long ago.

Yellow in the north represents the plains people. Considering the "let's push out the natives" attitude that we've established for the Empire, it would be reasonable to say that the Algonquin (name pending) folk got pushed out onto the plains too, and are currently fighting the normal plains folk.

Personally, I would move the purple border further west, at least so that the Imperials have that next northern gulf. Increases contact with the Frosties (or, Kannuks).

Grey is the mountain men, fiercely guarding their homeland.

A lot of Windigo's could hide in those mountains.

White is the Frost Peoples, chillin like they do. Could be hostile or friendly, I don't have any basis or opinion right now.

Definitely Canada. Friendly, eh?

As far as native cultures, here's what it looks like we've got (Green=we've got it; Red=I want it):

Boradoans: Guardians of the desert. I'm getting strong Proud Warrior Race Guy vibes from this.
Anasazi (needs a new name): Advanced kingdom that lives in the neck of the desert. Poses a threat to the Empire.
Mountain Tribes: Guard the mountain from incursions, possible alliance with subterranean race. I'm imagining these guys as primitive, but still effective because they're stealthy. Also, because of modern-day Colorado, I imagine them being rock climbers, athletes, and stoners. :smalltongue:
Northeast Coast Tribes: I like the idea of fisher folk in the Northeast. These guy may be pretty peaceful, and may actually form an alliance with the Empire.
Plains tribe: Wanderers and warriors. Teepees and Buffalo. Fighting a losing battle against the Empire.
Eastern tribes: Either extinct due to the Empire, very nearly extinct, or fled to the north or west.

Personally, I would have the Northwestern tribes be peaceful. They just seem like California-Indians. I would also advise you to move the Anasazi farther south and stretch the Boradoan border to take its current place. I might be missing something, but it seems to me that since the Anasazi were Boradoans who chose to use their “Gods'” old supertech, they shouldn't be able to replicate it. While very Magitek, they should be severely limited in resources due to living in a desert and not having invented the tech themselves. The Boradoans, unless I miss my guess, are supposed to be like Mexico. That said, I think it should be mentioned that they are not full-blooded Natives, but rather a mix between the Natives and whatever this setting has for Europeans.

Actually, that's a great reason for them not using their Gods' old tech. The tech requires a full-blooded native. It's a gene-sensitive tech.

TheMeMan

2012-01-27, 07:41 PM

All of that sounds good, but I'm completely lost about what you're trying to say here:

Are you saying that the Algonquin should be physically between the Plains Folk and the Empire? And that they should be something like guerilla terrorists against the Plains Folk? That could be awesome.

That's exactly what I meant. :smallbiggrin:
I can see two distinct possibilities here:

1. The Algonquian types have their own distinct territory, and are settled in between the eastern portion of the empire and Plains Groups. They act as sort of an antonymous territory that are allies of some sort with the Empire. The Empire allows the territory to exist and not incorporate it as a form of "buffer" against the hostile Plains groups. They are constantly at war with said groups, with guerrilla style raids across the border into Plains territory, and vice-versa. This sort of fits with the Ojibwa and how the Europeans acted towards them pre-settlement period.

2. The Algonquian types have been fully incorporated into the Empire, and have no territory of their own. They may have a province of sorts within the territory of the Empire, but are under direct control by the Imperials. Once again, they are mainly settled close to the Plains territory. They have fully incorporated themselves into Imperial Society, and have very little of the "old ways" left within their society. The Empire uses them essentially as guerrilla fighters against the Plains, conducting covert strategic operations and the like. This would be more like the Southeast Indians, in particular the Cherokee (Who had completely adopted a European lifestyle and were a feared fighting force for both sides in the Civil War).

Edit:

Just saw the "Frost People". A very easy thing for a basis: Inuit. Widespread hunting folk whos technology is absolutely brilliant in it's complexity, and perfectly manufactured for a harsh environment. Not much for war or raids due to being very widespread. On the extremely rare occasion that they do make an attack, it is brief, fierce, and extremely violent. Yet they disappear almost as quickly as they attack, leaving very little trace. Attempting to track them in the frozen wilderness is next to impossible, largely due to the vast and hostile expanse they live in, but also due to their absolute and total knowledge of the area. Incursions into the region by the Empire have yielded only the briefest of glimpses of the people themselves, and more commonly the ghostly remnants of abandoned settlements. Few know much about them at all, and they keep largely out of the grander schemes of those in the South. If contact is somehow made, you find that they are neither Enemy nor Ally any group. Pleas or bargains for such and alliance fall on deaf ears. They will help you, give you food if they have it rather freely, as the food they eat is often plentiful when they have or non-existent if they do not. However, visitors would find the food unpalatable to say the least, as all manner of food is eaten raw.

Whooooo. How's that for a start? I imagine they would be "The Highest of the Low tech", probably incorporating ancient and primordial magics into their way of life.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-27, 07:43 PM

I assume that any Natives living in the purple would have already been absorbed and/or exterminated long ago.

Exactly.

Personally, I would move the purple border further west, at least so that the Imperials have that next northern gulf. Increases contact with the Frosties (or, Kannuks).

All of the Yellow is Imperial territory, too. This map is more of a "Dominant Ethnicity Map" than a true political map. I imagine the Empire claims every inch of land beneath the Frost peoples and above the Anasazi and Boradoans, it's just that sometimes there are very few Imperials in a given region. I'm actually thinking that the Northwest needs to be something other than purple in this map.

A lot of Windigo's could hide in those mountains.

Totes.

Personally, I would have the Northwestern tribes be peaceful. They just seem like California-Indians.

In my somewhat limited, midwestern experience, there are three kinds of people that live in Cali: Hippies, Dickwads, and homeless people.

Like I mentioned earlier, I pictured the mountain people to be the peaceful ones before I fell in love with the idea of them being fierce guardians of their peoples' "Eden." Colorado's full of hippies and stoners... but maybe there's still room for that here. Very territorial hippies. :smalltongue:

I would also advise you to move the Anasazi farther south and stretch the Boradoan border to take its current place. I might be missing something, but it seems to me that since the Anasazi were Boradoans who chose to use their “Gods'” old supertech, they shouldn't be able to replicate it. While very Magitek, they should be severely limited in resources due to living in a desert and not having invented the tech themselves. The Boradoans, unless I miss my guess, are supposed to be like Mexico.

Having had time to think about it, I almost think the Anasazi should be more like the Mexicans. When I think about Mexicans in the wild west, my mind always jumps to Zorro, and the Anasazi area is exactly the place where I could imagine those sorts of adventures happening.

That said, I think it should be mentioned that they are not full-blooded Natives, but rather a mix between the Natives and whatever this setting has for Europeans.

Actually, that's a great reason for them not using their Gods' old tech. The tech requires a full-blooded native. It's a gene-sensitive tech.

I like this idea, but I don't know that I like the idea of the Boradoans not being able to use the tech. I'd prefer the Boradoans to be fearful of the tech (regardless whether or not they can use it), but maybe the Anasazi have all this stuff that they haven't been able to use because of diluted blood. Instead, they've made a lot of progress by studying the stuff.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-27, 08:51 PM

In my somewhat limited, midwestern experience, there are three kinds of people that live in Cali: Hippies, Dickwads, and homeless people.

Speaking as a Californian, you're not far off :smalltongue:. Cali's really about as diverse as the rest of the US. Lots of Mexican/Latino influence in the South, Hippie/Oregon types in the North, Midwest and Southern types in the middle and desert regions. A friend of my sister's went to Alabama for college and once brought some of his mates down there back home for a tour. According to them the mountains region I'm from is virtually identical to Alabama. But this isn't a thread about just Cali or Alabama, so whatever.

I like this idea, but I don't know that I like the idea of the Boradoans not being able to use the tech. I'd prefer the Boradoans to be fearful of the tech (regardless whether or not they can use it), but maybe the Anasazi have all this stuff that they haven't been able to use because of diluted blood. Instead, they've made a lot of progress by studying the stuff.

Like Giant Stone Jaguar Guardians (tm). There's only a few and they can't make any more of them, but through study the Anasazi can make smaller stone golems and the like.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-29, 10:48 AM

Speaking as a Californian, you're not far off :smalltongue:.

:smalltongue:

Like Giant Stone Jaguar Guardians (tm). There's only a few and they can't make any more of them, but through study the Anasazi can make smaller stone golems and the like.

We could work with this. There could even be a tie-in with the Ironmen.

TheMeMan

2012-01-29, 04:55 PM

More native American Myths involving Bear's Lodge:

A quick note on Bear's Lodge: Bear's Lodge is the core of a long-since dead volcano. Essentially what happened is that the inner part that was hardened lava is all the remains intact, as the out "shell" crumbled away over time. It's an amazing sight, as it is pretty much a massive stone structure standing by itself.

Bear Lodge(Also called Devil's Tower these days), Kiowa: Long ago, there was group of the Kiowa people that camped in the prairie along a stream. Seven young girls went to pick berries far away from their encampment. The Bear People smelled them from far away, and as they were hungry they left their village to find the young girls and eat them. The girls saw the Bear People coming, and ran. It was then that they came up on a great rock standing above the landscape. They climbed the rock, trying to get to safety. The bears followed the girls, and started to climb the rock themselves! They girls prayed to the rock to help them.

Never having been revered before, the great rock took kindness to them. The rock grew taller and steeper, and the bears could no longer climb it. Frustrated, the bears prayed to the bear gods, and the gods grew the bears! But as the bears grew in size, the rock grew doubly. The bears clawing at the side of the rock tore of huge chunks form the side, leaving deep gashes in its side. But the bears could not reach the girls. Finally, after a great time the bears left the rock to return to their village.

It was at this time that the young girl's village packed their camp and left. Seeing this, the girls prayed to the Stars. Taking pity on the abandoned girls, the Stars took them and allowed the girls to join them in the sky. These girls became stars themselves, and are the Seven Sisters who can be seen rising above Bears lodge.

Alternatively, Cheyenne Legend of Bear's Lodge(Abridged):
A young cheyenne man was suspicious that he wife was being courted by another man. She often disappeared, rousing his suspicions. He watched to see when his wife disappeared and to see if at these times any of the men in the village had left as well. After a few days and not seeing any man being gone when his wife was, he confronted her. She was afraid, and told him she was charmed by a great bear. The man gathered several warriors from the village, and had his wife lead them to the bear.

She brought them to the bear's cave, where he was asleep. The warriors could not get to the bear, as his feet were massive and hanging out of the cave blocking their way. To awaken the bear, they shot arrows into his feet. This enraged the bear who awoke, and attack the warriors.

The warriors, terrified now of the enraged bear, climbed to the top of the rock that was the bear's cave. The Great bear began to climb up after them. The young warriors began to pray to the Great Spirit to help them. Hearing them, the Great Spirit grew the rock larger and larger. The Bear mad a great leap to the top, and found a firm grip at the ledge. The men, now with renewed courage, shot the Bear and killed it. As the bear fell, it pushed against the rock, causing it to lean.

Of course, there are different variations as well. There's a Sioux story about a Warrior who made a sort of quest to the top(And hence why Sioux make a pilgrimage there), an Arapaho story about 7 siblings(Different than the Kiowa one, as the "bear" is one of the siblings), a Crow story about two sisters, and many more. It's one of the most well-known mythical sites.

A picture of Bears lodge:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Devils_Tower_CROP.jpg

And a rendition I was able to find online of the Cheyenne story:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_HOChz09wklA/TB5cVcgMPZI/AAAAAAAAAig/E8bf6Zsa3rU/P1030365%5B2%5D.jpg

Recherché

2012-01-29, 07:33 PM

You know with a local origin for the Iron men, we'be kind of gotten rid of a source for a lot of African culture in this setting including Voodoun. In an attempt to fix this Is like to reintroduce them, by combining them with the French.
Note: all of this is just a suggestion for people to accept, reject, or modify as they will.

History
The imperials were not the first easterners across the ocean to find the new world. That honor goes to the Afro-French, but where the imperials came to conquer the Afro-French came to trade. More interestingly for our purposes they sent men as traders, not families to settle. After a few years these men began to grow lonely and did what men in such situations often do. They took the native women as brides (both officially and in less official capacities.) Here lies the origin of the Gente Mis (depending on how you translate it means "my people" or "mixed people".)
Eventually the Imperials came and in their wars they not only destroyed the Eastern natives but also forced out the Gente Mis. The mixed people were driven from their original homes further and further west and into the most inhospitable places. Eventually all that was left to them were the frozen wastes of the north (Quebec equivalent) and the marshy islands of the far south (Cajuns.) The Gente Mis of the south were resourceful people though, they were able to turn the swamp into a source of wealth. They learned that they could sell some of the exotic spices that grew in the swamp for exorbitant prices. And for a long time things were good; the Gente Mis thrived on trade in vanilla, chocolate, cinnamon, chiles and other exotic exports.
The Imperials were still expanding though and soon their expansion brought them to the Gente Mis once again. Unlike in the last war, this time the Gente Mis were well funded and highly determined. Through their knowledge of the native swamp and great wealth they were able to hold off the much larger Empire for years. The mpire and its iron men soldiers were able to hold the dry land, but the Gente Mis ruled the swamps with the zombie armies raised by their priests. In the end the money of the Gente Mis ran out before the Empire ran out of bodies to throw at the war. The Gente Mis officially surrendered to the empire 19 years ago. The Empire gained a broken land of destroyed cities, a generation of youths dead in the war and a highly resentful populace. To rule this land they appointed corrupt and incompetent officials and because of this corruption is the only thing flourishing in Coterois today. In the south, some groups never acknowledged the treaty ending the war and continue a guerilla campaign against the empire. Savas town in particular never surrendered to the empire. At the time the empire ignored Savas town as a non-threat and not worth the ef
fort to destroy. However in recent years the town has swelled into a city of rebels recruited from all over Gente Mis territory and a new generation of soldiers is
approaching adulthood.

Gente Mis ReligionThe beliefs of the Gente Mis are incredibly diverse and may include elements of any and all cultures they came in contact with. The basic cosmology is that the original creator goddess wished to know herself better and therefore to shattered herself and became the universe. Everything in the world is a fragment of the original divine and therefore contains a small god, there are also some larger fragments remaining (AKA the gods), some humans have managed to awaken the divine spirit within themselves and became saints. One of the other defining features of Gente Mis religion is the practice of drawing down the gods and having them possess a priest.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-30, 03:34 PM

You know with a local origin for the Iron men, we'be kind of gotten rid of a source for a lot of African culture in this setting including Voodoun. In an attempt to fix this Is like to reintroduce them, by combining them with the French.
Note: all of this is just a suggestion for people to accept, reject, or modify as they will.

Thanks for the contribution!

Stuff I like:

A "mixed people" from the two separate continents. On a side note, it's interesting to me that the culture was basically started by bastardry. What would an "ideal family" look like for these people?
The Gente Mis as defeated but still rebellious swamp people.
"Northern" and "Southern" Gente Mis.
The threat of weirdness and violence so close to Coterois.

Stuff I'd like to tweak:

The level of corruption in Coterois. I'm sure there are corrupt politicians in the city, but in general I'd like it to have a reputation as a gateway to the west. It will have a seedy underbelly, but it's a shining, happy city at face value.
The "armies of zombies" thing. I like the idea of the Gente Mis priests using zombies as soldiers, but I picture it being some kind of subversive, terrifying guerrilla assult instead of open war. I want zombies to be hinted at in myth and history, but still a fairly rare occurence.
The sainthood thing. What's the precedent in Vodoun? I like the shattered goddess idea a whole lot, but anointing mortals seems more like Catholicism to me. That said, I love that the priests invite themselve to be possessed!

Proposed fixes:

There's a "daytime" government and a "nighttime" government in Coterois? During the day, elected politicians do their part to accomplish the desires of the populace, but under the surface there's a complex organization of puppet strings and dark creatures that REALLY have all the control.
Maybe only one priest managed to start the zombie plague, and maybe that's what caused the truce in the war? Which may or may not have been the priest's intention?
My thorough five-minute browsing of Voodoo on Wikipedia sets up the basic hierarchy of divinity as follows: there's one big, leader god, and there are intermediate spirits that people pray to to get help from the head god. Among those spirits is Baron Samedi, and I think he obviously needs to be a part of this. Maybe he (as a spirit of the dead) is the deified (er, "spirified") priest who started the zombie plague?

I'd like to change the name. If I remember my French correctly, Gente Mis is pronounced something like "Zhahnt Mee,"... what about Jahmy?

I'd like to thank everyone for all the ideas they've submitted. This is all really awesome stuff, and I'm extremely grateful that you've taken an interest in the project. Here's what we've got hammered out so far:

Map
Races
Imperials
Boradoans
Boradoan Splinter Kingdom
Plains Folk
Mountaineers
Remnants of the Eastern Natives
Northwestern Fisherfolk
Northern Peoples
Ironmen
Swamp Folk (Name Still) Pending
Cultures
Boradoans
Boradoan Splinter Kingdom
Northwesterners
Plains Folk
Mountaineers
Swamp People
Monsters
Zombies
Wendigo (Zombies)

If people have more to contribute in any of these areas: awesome. But let's start to consider some more stuff, too. Specifically, I think we need to start fleshing out:

Imperial religion
Eastern region (basically the Empire)
Mythic Heroes (equivalents of Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, etc.)
More monsters! Bigfoot, Chupacabra, Jackalope, whatever.

I'll start. Nikola Tesla is now...
Sergei Tokarev, or "Dr. Steam," is the most innovative mind in the Empire. Churning out hundreds of inventions each year, Dr. Steam is responsible for nearly every technological advancement the Empire has made in the past decade, including harnessing the powers of steam to the benefit of each of the Empire's citizens. Dr. Steam works closely with the Imperial Government, developing everything from more sophisticated labor devices to--it is rumored--more powerful weapons for the Imperial Military.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-30, 05:10 PM

The sainthood thing. What's the precedent in Vodoun? I like the shattered goddess idea a whole lot, but anointing mortals seems more like Catholicism to me. That said, I love that the priests invite themselve to be possessed!

From what I know of Voodoo and Hoodoo (folk magic), and it isn't much, American Louisiana Voodoo is basically Western Africa traditions plus Christianity. Saints are used a lot, from what I understand. Moses, in fact, is considered to be the finest Voodoo Doctor ever for his plagues and spliting the Red Sea.

My thorough five-minute browsing of Voodoo on Wikipedia sets up the basic hierarchy of divinity as follows: there's one big, leader god, and there are intermediate spirits that people pray to to get help from the head god. Among those spirits is Baron Samedi, and I think he obviously needs to be a part of this. Maybe he (as a spirit of the dead) is the deified (er, "spirified") priest who started the zombie plague?

Gotta have the Baron. Love that guy! :smallsmile:

I'd like to change the name. If I remember my French correctly, Gente Mis is pronounced something like "Zhahnt Mee,"... what about Jahmy?

Good name. Probably spelled Jahmi (or Je'ami) by practitioners though.

If people have more to contribute in any of these areas: awesome. But let's start to consider some more stuff, too. Specifically, I think we need to start fleshing out:

Imperial religion
Eastern region (basically the Empire)
Mythic Heroes (equivalents of Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, etc.)
More monsters! Bigfoot, Chupacabra, Jackalope, whatever.

I'll start. Nikola Tesla is now...
Sergei Tokarev, or "Dr. Steam," is the most innovative mind in the Empire. Churning out hundreds of inventions each year, Dr. Steam is responsible for nearly every technological advancement the Empire has made in the past decade, including harnessing the powers of steam to the benefit of each of the Empire's citizens. Dr. Steam works closely with the Imperial Government, developing everything from more sophisticated labor devices to--it is rumored--more powerful weapons for the Imperial Military.

Sounds good so far. As for the Imperial Religion, let's go similar to the founding fathers' rhetoric. Liberty and Freedom and the like aren't just ideas. They're deities to the Empire. If the Empire itself is run like a Republic you could even make the state religion Catonianism (a belief in the Divinity of the State). Named for Cato, a Roman Senator at the time of the First Triumvirate and Julius Caesar, Catonianism is the belief that the very institution of the government is divine, that it is a God-like entity. It's like saying that any law passed has the weight of religious commandment because it is supported by the Republic.

It also makes the political rhetoric much harsher when accusing your opponent of being harmful to the nation is like saying they're a devil (early 19th century politics were savage!). Any mortal who proves to have an extraordinary impact is added post-mortem to the National Pantheon. It's like having Ben Franklin as a Lightning God of Progress, and George Washington as the indefatigable War God and Spirit of Humility.

TheMeMan

2012-01-30, 06:28 PM

If people have more to contribute in any of these areas: awesome. But let's start to consider some more stuff, too. Specifically, I think we need to start fleshing out:

Imperial religion
Eastern region (basically the Empire)
Mythic Heroes (equivalents of Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, etc.)
More monsters! Bigfoot, Chupacabra, Jackalope, whatever.

As for Monsters... well...

There is the Hînqûmemen. Essentially just a lake in appearance(It's actually the name of a Lake in B.C.), however when people drink from the waters it angers the lake which then hunts said person down and devours them. To put it more simply, it's a living lake that can travel across land and eats people, returning to it's spot after doing so.

Then there is the Mishipzhiw. It's an Algonquian myth of a water-monster that is cat-like in appearance. It captures people with it's tail and devours them. Also it creates storms by thrashing it's tail in the water.

The Nunyenunc, which is an absolutely massive bird that hunts people. This was actually one of the more terrifying creatures of legend.

Flying Heads, and Iroquios myth. They were literally flying human heads with long hair and sharp knife-like teeth. Instead of ears they had bat wings. And I think I actually recall now an actually D&D monster that is identical to this(I'm thinking it's based off of it). They latch onto you and once attached never come off.

Be Chasti, or "Metal Old Man"(Although I'm willing to bet it's a misnomer or mistranslation). A Giant who was covered in black obsidian plates, with only a single weakspot(The armpits), which is where the warriors struck to kill him.

And I almost forgot the Thunderbird. They create lightning and thunder, and have the power to destroy entire villages with their abilities. They are extremely powerful eagles that are often depicted as massive in size. Able to control the weather, particularly thunderstorms.

Also, look into the Ghost Dance. Essentially it was a revitalization movement that was throughout much to the Plains area, that involved a ritual dance. What was hoped to happen, depending, is that the ghosts of ancestors would return and drive the Europeans out. Or that the Europeans would just leave, leaving the Americas back in the hands of the various tribes.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-31, 10:53 AM

From what I know of Voodoo and Hoodoo (folk magic), and it isn't much, American Louisiana Voodoo is basically Western Africa traditions plus Christianity. Saints are used a lot, from what I understand. Moses, in fact, is considered to be the finest Voodoo Doctor ever for his plagues and spliting the Red Sea.

Sweet. Let's keep it, then!

Good name. Probably spelled Jahmi (or Je'ami) by practitioners though.

My usual habit when I'm coming up with names etc. is to take a real-world language, find an appropriate word, then twist it until it's just beyond the point of recognition. For example: the hungarian word for wolf is "Farkas." In a private project I'm working on right now, I have a forest called "Arka" because it has a lot of wolves in it. I'd like to do something similar here.

That said, I like the idea of using "i" instead of "y," but I'm pretty sure "Je'ami" means something like "I friend," in French.

What about this:
Je ("I" French)+Amalgame ("mixed"French)+Watu ("Person" Swahili)=J'awaltu
???

Imperial Religion Stuff
I'm hesitant to make the Empire deify its historical figures for the same reason that I'm hesitant to give it a state religion. Religious freedom is in the Bill of Rights, and I think that a setting that distills American culture should include that. Maybe there are monuments to the various important political figures, and maybe they are contemplated and sworn before by the populace, but I hesitate to make it a tried-and-true religion.

Maybe this is a place where we can include something I've been thinking about for another project. Instead of giving domains and portfolios only to religions, I'd like to try giving them to all organizations. The "cleric" becomes a "champion," and draws power from their belief in any cause (this is RAW, but I think extending domains to organizations actually makes it feasible). For example, you've got Colonel "Bear" Redfelt and his Tough Riders, and at the penultimate moment when they're storming up the hill, maybe he shouts something like "Remember Emperor Rinseington!," effectively casting some sort of Heroism spell on his allies.

This allows for the government, its history, and its important figures to become "gods" in deed but not in name, and it leaves the door open for lots of other organizations and religions to have a tangible influence on the world.

Native American Monster Stuff

I'm liking this info! I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but I think the struggle between Natives and the Empire simply has to be the focus of this thing. There's really no other way.

I definitely want to keep the Lake Monster (holy **** TERRIFYING), the Obsidian Giant, and the Thunderbird. The giant bird dude might be worth holding onto as well, but I'm really not crazy about the grabby cat and the flying heads.

I'm editing the first post to include those monsters. Got any more? Anyone?

TheMeMan

2012-01-31, 12:27 PM

I definitely want to keep the Lake Monster (holy **** TERRIFYING), the Obsidian Giant, and the Thunderbird. The giant bird dude might be worth holding onto as well, but I'm really not crazy about the grabby cat and the flying heads.

I'm editing the first post to include those monsters. Got any more? Anyone?

I figured you'd like the Lake Monster. It is probably the most literal interpretation of "Lake Monster" that there is.

Do I have anymore... of course I do.

Let's go with a few from American Folklore right now.

There's "Raw-Head And Bloody Bones." A story imported from England, it comes in to variants. The first(Original story) was the English version. Raw Head and Bloody Bones would track down children and devour him. You may be wondering where he got his name. Well, it has to do with the fact that he was skinless on his head. The Bloody Bones part came from the fact that he collected massive pile of children's bones that he would live on(Or sit on). He was roughly human in this depiction, more or less.

The American story is a bit weirder. He was a boar that a witch created that could take the form of a human, and could talk as well. He was killed by a hunter, and the witch brought his bones back to life. Angered, Raw-Head decided to hunt and kill the Hunter who killed him. To help him, he took the teeth of a panther, the claws of a bear, and the tail of a... rabbit(Don't ask, I don't know why). He was bloody and horrifying in appearance, with raw flesh throughout his body. He found the hunter and killed him.

Then there is the Jersey Devil, which you can look into if you want(I don't know much about it really).

The Headless Horseman of Sleepy Hollow comes to mind. I'm sure you know the story, but if you don't I'll iterate it.

Ogo-Pogo, which is essentially the Loch Ness Monster of Canada(See also "Champ" in New York).

The Joint Snake, which is a snake that when cut up will reassemble itself(And any items that may have it's blood on it will be incorporated into it).

The Shunka Warakin, which is an Ioway legend about a massive wolf-like creature. In more recent folklore, it takes the appearance of a cross between a hyena and a wolf. It's incredibly vicious and deadly, slinking into villages under the cover of night to carry it's prey to it's lair. It is rarely ever seen, and often leaves little or no trace of it's presence.

Edit: Looking closer into a few of my books, I've found some interesting tidbits.

The Bemola. Similar to the Thunderbird(Which was predominantly a plains legend, though not exclusively by any means), there is the Bemola. Like the Thunderbird, it is a massive bird of prey that can control storms. Unlike the the Thunderbird, however, it resides at the peaks of mountains and controls Snowstorms and can create extremely cold winds. It was large enough to carry off a Moose if it cared to.

And the Wuchoswen, a giant and immortal bird-spirit. It is massive, to say the least. Large enough that it's wings flapping creates all of the winds of the world. It's technically a deity like figure, and is not a "monster" in the strictest sense, however with a bit of reworking it could easily fit. Myths about it say that it can creates deadly winds, especially when angered.

Zap Dynamic

2012-01-31, 12:50 PM

Another "Hero" figure:
Based on: John Henry

Iron John is an Ironman who is fed up with all this new-fangled steam technology. A bit of history first:

CE 1790: Times are tough in the New Empire. Without a strong workforce, it's hard to create the volume of foodstuffs and other goods to make the Empire a contender on the world stage.

CE 1800: Enter Desmond Merryweather, a southern landholder and renaissance man. Using the mysteries of alchemy as his foundation, he manages to imbue inert wood, rope, and metal with life. He calls his creations "Ironmen," and sees them as an end to the labor woes of his people.

CE 1860: The Ironmen are discovered to be sentient, feeling beings, and a war is fought to free them from bondage. Their freedom is won at great cost.

CE 1870: A young Sergei Tokarev distinguishes himself as an inventor, and pioneers the use of steam technology. Huge advances are made on every technological front. Steam is heralded as a new hope for the landowners of the south.

CE 1880 (the present): The Ironmen have have learned that the taste of their freedom is bitter. They need sustenance just as any other creature, and with the advent of steam, many are out of work.

Enter Iron John. A larger-than-usual Ironman dedicated to laying the rail that will travel from Rinseington, through the north all the way to the war with the Boradoans, he encounters adversity at every step. For all his stamina and strength, the new steam-powered construction machines are faster, cheaper, and more precise than his brethren.

Iron John contests with one of these rail machines, working so furiously that he breaks apart at the seams and destroys himself. His comrades, heartened by the valor of their fallen brother, form up and flee into the wilderness, to live or die by their own ingenuity. Freedom is no longer enough: they require independence.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-01-31, 02:42 PM

Another "Hero" figure:
Based on: John Henry

Iron John is an Ironman who is fed up with all this new-fangled steam technology. A bit of history first:

Iron John contests with one of these rail machines, winning by a narrow margin. Within days, he is the target of mysterious assassination attempts. Gathering a host of his Iron brethren, Iron John flees into the wilderness, to live or die by the ingenuity of his people. Freedom is no longer enough: they require independence.

Hmm. Sad to see the ending change. The original story was a tale about the tragic consequence of Man v Machine, in that Machine won. I would have Iron John die from exhaustion (sheered his own metal joints with the effort of beating the steam drill), and become a Hero that way, inspiring the Ironmen to push harder for true equality. Also, I'm sorry, but I have to share this. Best version of John Henry I know of. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgfxgKRc4jo) :smallwink:

On Voodoo...

How about Jefais (I make in French) or Jecreis (close to "I create" in French). Or, taking your suggestion and mixing it, how about J'amatu?

Imperial Religion

I get it. I like what you've got in regards to the Organizations and Domains. I might change Organizations to Ideas (Freedom or Independence...or Sobriety for Prohibitionist Cleric :smalltongue:) or perhaps just straight semi-worship of individuals. Like, your "Bear" Redfelt (Bully!) wouldn't be a cleric of the Knights of Copper (Isaiah Copper = Abraham Lincoln), but of Saint-Emperor Copper directly.

I only say this because, well, Americans Do deify our historical characters. Still, your idea is probably for the best.

Inglenook

2012-01-31, 04:04 PM

As far as monsters, there are a few fairly famous local ones that I can think of.

Wampus Cat — Sort of a gigantic, dusky cougar that eats livestock … and people, if it can get them. According to Wiki there's a a Native American myth about it being a woman cursed by a medicine man? I was always told that its cry sounds like the scream of a woman being murdered (pretty much like an actual cougar's cry), and that it lurks in the trees above roads/paths in the forest, pouncing when prey wanders underneath.

Tailypo — Not sure if this is the proper name for the monster, but that's the only thing I've ever heard it called. Always heard it described as a dog-sized tarsier with large ears and long, sharp claws/teeth. According to the legend, a starving hunter shot off its tail, cooked it and ate it. That night the thing showed up at his cabin window, whispering "Tailypo, tailypo, give me back my tailypo." The hunter sent his three dogs to chase it off, but it killed one of the dogs. Each night it would come back and scuttle around the outside of the cabin while asking for its "tailypo" to be returned, and each night the hunter would send his dogs out only for another one of them to be killed. On the last night, with no dogs for protection, tailypo broke into the cabin and tore the man to shreds, extracting its tail from the hunter's stomach. Presumably it can reattach limbs?

I'm sure stuff like skinwalkers, Bigfoot, the Thunderbird, wendigos and the Jersey Devil have already been mentioned.

Ooh, another thing that could be fun: turn the snipe into a source for some extremely rare and valuable spell component or something, make it extremely fast and dangerous, and have the players go on a "snipe hunt". :smallsmile:

---

Some NPC ideas:

Johnny Appleseed — Perhaps the last remaining druid of long-forgotten nature god, cursed to wander the earth planting trees? Technically he was a real guy, but to most Americans I think he's sort of faded into a legendary figure.

Evelyn Eileen Headhunter — Okay, I think this is an extremely local mythological figure, but Evelyn Headhunter is supposedly this cannibalistic witch who lives in the forest here, and she always carries a long axe with her. At night she'll use her magic to cause cars driving through the forest to break down, and she proceeds to kill the occupants and take them back to her cabin to eat. She keeps the heads of all her victims nailed to the wall.

Bloody Mary — The one that pops out of the mirror if you say her name three times.

Cropsey — Staten Island's version of the boogeyman. There's a pretty neat documentary out about this myth.

---

Mammoth Cave should totally be the entrance to some sort of Underdark, by the way. :smallcool:

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-02, 12:54 PM

Hmm. Sad to see the ending change. The original story was a tale about the tragic consequence of Man v Machine, in that Machine won. I would have Iron John die from exhaustion (sheered his own metal joints with the effort of beating the steam drill), and become a Hero that way, inspiring the Ironmen to push harder for true equality. Also, I'm sorry, but I have to share this. Best version of John Henry I know of. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgfxgKRc4jo) :smallwink:

I like that idea. I didn't know how to approach this myth in particular, because it's not really "man vs. machine" anymore. Regardless, I think the idea of an Ironman that falls apart from stress and inspires a rebellion in his memory is cooler. Consider it changed!

How about Jefais (I make in French) or Jecreis (close to "I create" in French). Or, taking your suggestion and mixing it, how about J'amatu?

What's the precedent here? I was thinking about a name for the culture (since they're a 'mixed breed'), but this seems like it would almost be more appropriate as a name for the zombies. Basically, I'm just saying that I don't understand what you're pointing at, here.

I get it. I like what you've got in regards to the Organizations and Domains. I might change Organizations to Ideas (Freedom or Independence...or Sobriety for Prohibitionist Cleric :smalltongue:) or perhaps just straight semi-worship of individuals. Like, your "Bear" Redfelt (Bully!) wouldn't be a cleric of the Knights of Copper (Isaiah Copper = Abraham Lincoln), but of Saint-Emperor Copper directly.

I think I understand what you're saying here. Instead of having domains attached to organizations, you're proposing that domains be attached to ideas, and those ideas could then theoretically be attached to organizations? I think I like that. That way the Champions could be "freelancers," and they might gain the attention of relevant (and antagonistic) organization as they gain in level.

Mammoth Cave should totally be the entrance to some sort of Underdark, by the way

I like this idea, but I'm not sure how to implement it. It seems like it would be a natural extension of the Mountain Folk ("We came from the earth") and other natives, but I'm not sure what they would think of creatures that still live underground. Super sacred? Really primitive? For that matter, what would the creatures underground actually be like? Intelligent and spiritual? Primal and savage?

On the subjects of monsters/races/creatures, I find that I'm really enjoying everyone's suggestions, but all of them seem like solitary creatures. Is there evidence in American folklore for things like changelings, fairies, or goblins? a creature that isn't known as this single, powerful entity, so much as an entire race that's known to meddle, attack, etc?

Inglenook

2012-02-02, 01:06 PM

Hmm, the only American beastie I can think of that's explicitly stated to live and work together in an organized way are Tommyknockers. But even they aren't natively American—brought over from Wales, according to Wiki. :smallfrown:

Though lots of the American monsters/races mentioned could always be reworked into societal creatures. After all, the myths/legends don't explicitly say "Hey, this is a unique creature!" For example: tailypo could be a warrior from a tribe of tailypoes hidden in the forest, and the ultimate mark of shame to them is losing a limb, so he has to reclaim it before he can return home.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-02, 06:54 PM

I like that idea. I didn't know how to approach this myth in particular, because it's not really "man vs. machine" anymore. Regardless, I think the idea of an Ironman that falls apart from stress and inspires a rebellion in his memory is cooler. Consider it changed!

Man vs Machine is an old theme that has a lot of precedence in American Folklore and Literature from around the Industrial Revolution. I'm not opposed to Machines myself.

What's the precedent here? I was thinking about a name for the culture (since they're a 'mixed breed'), but this seems like it would almost be more appropriate as a name for the zombies. Basically, I'm just saying that I don't understand what you're pointing at, here.

I thought we were making a name for Pseudo-Voodoo/Hoodoo. Oops! In that case, a name for the Black-French people (was that what they were? I might have missed that post) could be Medeux. I took the beginning of Metis (“mixed-race” according to Google) and added “two” in French. Two races, Mixed. Medeux.

I think I understand what you're saying here. Instead of having domains attached to organizations, you're proposing that domains be attached to ideas, and those ideas could then theoretically be attached to organizations? I think I like that. That way the Champions could be "freelancers," and they might gain the attention of relevant (and antagonistic) organization as they gain in level.

Yeah. Like, the Pseudo-American Red Cross worships Betsy Clay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Barton ), a nurse during the Pseudo-Civil War, and get the Healing Domain.

Or the Army worships Jefferson Huitzoptek Williamson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman ), who devastated the Pro-Ironmen-Slavery side of that same war, and grants those who follow his footsteps the Destruction Domain.

I like this idea, but I'm not sure how to implement it. It seems like it would be a natural extension of the Mountain Folk ("We came from the earth") and other natives, but I'm not sure what they would think of creatures that still live underground. Super sacred? Really primitive? For that matter, what would the creatures underground actually be like? Intelligent and spiritual? Primal and savage?

Try Primal and Spiritual. They are potent manifestations of the physical and spiritual world, but very animalistic. In the same way, Bison may be sacred to Native Americans in RL (don't quote me), but they still eat them.

On the subjects of monsters/races/creatures, I find that I'm really enjoying everyone's suggestions, but all of them seem like solitary creatures. Is there evidence in American folklore for things like changelings, fairies, or goblins? a creature that isn't known as this single, powerful entity, so much as an entire race that's known to meddle, attack, etc?

Trouble is, in my mind, stuff like fairies, goblins and changelings is a European thing. You could say that there are such things around, but that they aren't native either. Rather, goblins sneaked over on the first ships to this new continent, like rats. Or something like that.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-02, 10:21 PM

Man vs Machine is an old theme that has a lot of precedence in American Folklore and Literature from around the Industrial Revolution. I'm not opposed to Machines myself.

Righto. What I meant was the Iron John story wasn't really "Man vs. Machine" anymore, so much as it was "Man-like Machine vs. Fo REAL Machine." It doesn't seem as compelling. :smalltongue:

I thought we were making a name for Pseudo-Voodoo/Hoodoo. Oops! In that case, a name for the Black-French people (was that what they were? I might have missed that post) could be Medeux. I took the beginning of Metis (“mixed-race” according to Google) and added “two” in French. Two races, Mixed. Medeux.

I dig it. Short, sweet, to the point.

Yeah. Like, the Pseudo-American Red Cross worships Betsy Clay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Barton ), a nurse during the Pseudo-Civil War, and get the Healing Domain.

Or the Army worships Jefferson Huitzoptek Williamson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman ), who devastated the Pro-Ironmen-Slavery side of that same war, and grants those who follow his footsteps the Destruction Domain.

Radical. Though I would want to change "worships" to "reveres," just because it seems more American in my mind. We U.S. folks have a tendency to be pretty zealous about our heroes, but I think the official term is still closer to "revere."

Try Primal and Spiritual. They are potent manifestations of the physical and spiritual world, but very animalistic. In the same way, Bison may be sacred to Native Americans in RL (don't quote me), but they still eat them.

Nice! I had this idea for a campaign setting once where every single creature was considered to be a god (like a herd of cattle might be a herd of feast gods), and the PC races of the world just took it as a matter of course that they were supposed to respect (and sometimes fear) all the creatures, but they weren't necessarily supposed to be protected.

Trouble is, in my mind, stuff like fairies, goblins and changelings is a European thing. You could say that there are such things around, but that they aren't native either. Rather, goblins sneaked over on the first ships to this new continent, like rats. Or something like that.

Ha! Those tricksy goblins. I think it would be better to steer clear of those particular races, but if we could find something to fill the role of those races, then that would be awesome. In other words, I don't want "goblins," but I do want a race of tiny, filthy creatures that are widespread, super lightweights, and mischievous and all get-out. It's just a matter of finding suitable American replacements.

TheMeMan

2012-02-03, 06:00 AM

Ha! Those tricksy goblins. I think it would be better to steer clear of those particular races, but if we could find something to fill the role of those races, then that would be awesome. In other words, I don't want "goblins," but I do want a race of tiny, filthy creatures that are widespread, super lightweights, and mischievous and all get-out. It's just a matter of finding suitable American replacements.

Well, quickly, I do know that many Native groups believed in "water elves", of sorts, that lived at the bottom of lakes and were small and rather malignant. Of course, the word isn't actually "elf", but that's what early Europeans translated it to, as it was what they thought the Natives were talking about.

I'll have to look into some details, but they could fit the bill. Most tribes have stories about some race of none-to-nice folk that live at the bottom of lakes and the like. Lakes were rather feared, with many stories involving monsters residing within them(See the Lake Monster I already posted about).

Anywho, I'll look into it and figure out some of the details. I'm only vaguely familiar with the myths involving them right now.

Also, Giants were rather prominent in some societies(Giants of all sorts). Once again, I'll look into details.

Also, as far as the underground race, I agree with them being Primal and Spiritual. However, I would also like to add that the surface folk would probably greatly revere them through the link they have with the origin, but also likely have a tad bit of fear as they would be commanding the unknown(Or perhaps trepidation or anxious respect would be better phrasing). Most of the myths about mythical beings convey images both of something that is well respected and love as well as feared due to its power. Most everything could be described as being "in the gray" as far as how "Good vs. Evil" sort of things are taken. They are neither necessarily good nor bad, kind nor evil. They simply are, and as such should be both respected fully and to some extent feared.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-03, 09:39 AM

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-03, 03:55 PM

I had an idea this morning: since we've established a steampunk theme (albeit with elements of plenty of other stuff thrown in for the different regions), I think it would be cool to have a Rapture-esque element in Coterois. New-real New Orleans is below sea-level, so it seems like a natural extension of reality to say there is an actual part of Coterois that is submerged beneath the waves.

Couple this with the predominant native belief that things underwater are not to be trusted, and all of the natives could view Coterois as an abomination or something, and shun it at all costs.

Thoughts?

A portion of Coterois sank into the sea some time ago, due in part to Pseudo-Voodoo (a favor from the Other Side gone wrong/horribly right),and also in part due to the machinations of a cult following a Cosmic Abomination (of the Lovecraftian variety). This cult are monstrous fish-people who still live in the ruined Sunken Quarter, giving black sacrifices to their Unspeakable Gods.

The Natives Hate these guys. Besides being under the "Biggest Lake Monster of All" (ie; the Ocean), these guys probably dabble in all sorts of forbidden magic and have traditionally used Natives as their sacrifices.

But some enterprising Imperials, Led by Dr Steam himself, have reclaimed part of the Sunken City, abandoned even by the Cult. Using advanced and novel Steampunk tech and Magic together, they have created a habitable underwater city, Foundation. Foundation is also known by another name: Ville du Sans, City of Vice. The city is open to all types of business, and has cemented itself as a thriving Party Town.

LensmanRob

2012-02-03, 04:39 PM

As you are looking at a port city and have mentioned Paul Bunyan, you could find a way to include Stormalong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormalong).

Who knows, there may even be a great white whale and a one-legged captain out there. Ahab and Moby **** are pretty solid american legends by now.

The horrors of industrialization can be pretty well shown with the docks and the industries around whale oil.

Omeganaut

2012-02-04, 05:22 PM

If you want a small, social race, Gremlins could possibly fill the gap. Yes, I know they started in England, but many mechanical failures were blamed on them in WWII (mostly unseriously, but it stuck.), and the myth has been expanded upon here. There has even been a movie about it, where they start as cute creatures until they get wet.

Also, you could include some giants. Paul Bunyan isn't the only larger than average human out there, Pecos Bill was said to be huge, and many native geographical myths involve giants or giant creatures altering the landscape.

Also, I'd have some reference to the modern pre-ocupation with realistic simulations. Perhaps there is a drug that can allow you to live your dream life, and it is being used to lure natives into "civilized" actions such as signing their land over.

Ashtagon

2012-02-04, 06:37 PM

http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=3422

Can I donate my Modern Gods project to this setting?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-05, 03:30 AM

Also, I'd have some reference to the modern pre-ocupation with realistic simulations. Perhaps there is a drug that can allow you to live your dream life, and it is being used to lure natives into "civilized" actions such as signing their land over.

Heh heh. A kind of Coffee that makes you Knurd (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Knurd)? :smalltongue: Way too awesome, but it could lead to a movement like the Early Modernists (Ie; depressingly sober existentialist stuff).

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-05, 10:53 AM

Foundation, the Ville du Sans.

I love it! The only thing I might change is the Dr. Steam bit. MAYBE he came along and started it, but I think he would have moved on before it became a place of corruption. I imagine him being too brilliant/focused on his work to be caught up in corruption, politics, or silly things like profit. :smalltongue:

As you are looking at a port city and have mentioned Paul Bunyan, you could find a way to include Stormalong.

Who knows, there may even be a great white whale and a one-legged captain out there. Ahab and Moby **** are pretty solid american legends by now.

The horrors of industrialization can be pretty well shown with the docks and the industries around whale oil.

The more I think about it, the more I think that giants need to have a definite place in this setting. There's just too much precedent for it. However, it seems like they show up in the world occasionally (as opposed to living in the world normally). Does this imply that they live in remote areas that no one's ever found? Or maybe that they come from some other plane?

I don't know how we managed to overlook Captain Ahab so far. Good call!

Gremlins stuff.

Giant stuff.

Simulation stuff.

I like it! The gremlins could be statistically identical to goblins, and flavorfully identical with rats. They're small, disgusting creatures who came over from the old world by hiding aboard ships, and now they plague the underworld of every major city.

I mentioned above that I think giants are simply going to have to be a part of the setting.

I want to be careful about getting too modern with our interpretation. The idea of a "simulated reality" craze is a powerful part of American culture, but I don't know that it's an appropriate mythic element given the time period of the setting (late 19th century). I feel like people back then were more interested in the idea that nature was considered "passé" and were anxious for the day when the whole world became urbanized than the idea that reality is this place that needs to be escaped from. I feel like Ninjadeadbeard comes close with his latest comment: the idea of escaping reality is related to the existential movement, but I think it's a product rather than a cause.

However, I could totally get on board with some kind of addictive substance that's introduced to the population of the continent and threatens their way of life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium).

Can I donate my Modern Gods project to this setting?

Thanks for the offer! A lot of those could be really useful, but some of them are way too modern for the setting. World, Road, Wood, Stone, and The Artist would fit right in, and Media, The Kid, The Man, and El-Five are too modern, and the rest fall somewhere in between those two camps.

Any chance you'd like to take out the modern gods and add in some Steampunk Manifest Destiny era gods instead? :smallsmile:

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-05, 03:17 PM

I want to be careful about getting too modern with our interpretation. The idea of a "simulated reality" craze is a powerful part of American culture, but I don't know that it's an appropriate mythic element given the time period of the setting (late 19th century). I feel like people back then were more interested in the idea that nature was considered "passé" and were anxious for the day when the whole world became urbanized than the idea that reality is this place that needs to be escaped from. I feel like Ninjadeadbeard comes close with his latest comment: the idea of escaping reality is related to the existential movement, but I think it's a product rather than a cause.

Actually, 19th Century saw the rise of the Romantic Movement, where nature was seen as a mysterious, monumental, all-powerful force. Man was but a mote in God's eye. For some good examples, see The Open Boat by Stephen Crane (http://www.online-literature.com/crane/2544/), Herman Melville's Moby (rhymes with Pick) (http://www.online-literature.com/melville/), and Last of the Mohicans by James Fenimore Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_of_the_Mohicans).

The Urbanization was still there, so I would say a great conflict in American culture has been Urban vs Nature, where the latter is seen as potent and magnificent, and the former is comfortable and inevitable.

Also, because it makes me laugh, Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses by Mark Twain (http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/hns/indians/offense.html). :smalltongue:

Omeganaut

2012-02-05, 07:44 PM

At the same time there was a big push for modernization and manifest destiny, there was also a movement for philosohpizing and the natural world. Ralph Waldo Emerson was a big figure, and started a big movement on philosophy and respecting the natural world. Perhaps there are some druids, ranger, and magic-users who are against the mechanized progress, and fight it on any terms.

Also; here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/gremlins) is a link to the pathfinder page on Gremlins.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-06, 12:47 PM

I've edited the first post, throwing in hints about a conflict between urban and rural life. I've also added a section on "Factions," to make a list of nations, cultures, organizations and religions. I'd love it if someone could double check that to make sure I haven't forgotten anything. Most of the names on that list are wide open to be changed... I just threw something up there as a placeholder. :smalltongue:

The more I think about it, the more OK I am with having the steampunk setting coexist with swordplay. If we set this in the late 1870s, revolvers have only just started to come on the scene, and most people would still be using single-shot weapons... maybe even flintlock things in some regions. With that in mind, guns become a (still very valuable) fight-opener, before closing in with swords drawn. Granted, there are still those people who have the means to own a high-falutin' six gun, but those people are rightly feared and very rare.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-06, 01:19 PM

The more I think about it, the more OK I am with having the steampunk setting coexist with swordplay. If we set this in the late 1870s, revolvers have only just started to come on the scene, and most people would still be using single-shot weapons... maybe even flintlock things in some regions. With that in mind, guns become a (still very valuable) fight-opener, before closing in with swords drawn. Granted, there are still those people who have the means to own a high-falutin' six gun, but those people are rightly feared and very rare.

Should probably move that date back a bit. Repeater Rifles appeared around the beginning of the Civil War (The Winchester). And Gatling guns were used by the Union as early as 1862 according to Wikipedia.

Best solution: Since the setting is Medieval, guns are still new. Flintlocks have just been invented. What you're probably looking at is a world where Melee is king, but no one can wear metal armor since even these basic firearms can punch through it. Only a few fanatically loyal men, agents of the Empire, would have access to Masterwork armor that can protect from firearms.

Edit: Ooh! Just thought of a character for the setting. Noticed you had nothing down in the OP for Edgar Allen Poe. How about, Usher Ravenholm? A powerful Wizard who spent his days creating poetry infused with mighty illusion spells in order to draw the reader into his poems. After a time, he disappeared, presumed dead (though secretly Vampirized or Lichified). A good horror-themed quest would be for PCs to enter Usher's House and traverse his own dark internal world, either to save him or destroy him.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-06, 08:44 PM

Should probably move that date back a bit. Repeater Rifles appeared around the beginning of the Civil War (The Winchester). And Gatling guns were used by the Union as early as 1862 according to Wikipedia.

Best solution: Since the setting is Medieval, guns are still new. Flintlocks have just been invented. What you're probably looking at is a world where Melee is king, but no one can wear metal armor since even these basic firearms can punch through it. Only a few fanatically loyal men, agents of the Empire, would have access to Masterwork armor that can protect from firearms.

That's essentially what I was thinking. My date was based on a quick glance through Wikipedia, but looking a little more closely I see that the Winchester was indeed in use by the Civil War. Is there any information available about whether these guns were available to civilians that early? For instance, I think that military-grade weapons today aren't legal for civilian possession, but I could understand if that wasn't the case back then.

Either way, here's what I'm thinking: Flintlocks are what the everyman carries (if they carry a gun at all), whereas revolvers and repeaters are available to lawmen, military men, and the rich and powerful. Even if someone gets ahold of a revolver at low level, the attacks-per-round mechanic of most Pathfinder and DnD will help to contain that kind of power.

Edit: Ooh! Just thought of a character for the setting. Noticed you had nothing down in the OP for Edgar Allen Poe. How about, Usher Ravenholm? A powerful Wizard who spent his days creating poetry infused with mighty illusion spells in order to draw the reader into his poems. After a time, he disappeared, presumed dead (though secretly Vampirized or Lichified). A good horror-themed quest would be for PCs to enter Usher's House and traverse his own dark internal world, either to save him or destroy him.

I love it! How terrifying would be it to walk through the Masque of Red Death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Masque_of_the_Red_Death) or The Fall of the House of Usher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fall_of_the_House_of_Usher)? However: what about a bard instead of a wizard? Wizards have access to higher-level spells, but Bard just seems more thematically appropriate.

Inglenook

2012-02-06, 10:10 PM

The Poe idea is awesome. Please let him have a dire raven familiar.

Omeganaut

2012-02-06, 10:11 PM

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-07, 01:31 PM

The thing with military weapons is that control over who had what was a lot less strict back then. Often times, soldiers would take their weapons back home with them when their enlistment was up (especially after a war). Other times soldiers discarded weapons on the march, which were fair game for the next traveler. Also, if an enemy won a battle, they were free to loot the weapons of the soldiers as well. The Native Americans eventually received quite a collection of useful rifles (although many did not use them accurately).
I figured that was going to be the case. Personally, I'm okay with hand-waving the prevalence of steam technology, yet a relative dearth of guns like repeaters and revolvers. If that means we should make it closer to 1870 than 1880, so be it. No biggie.

Actually, this brings up a problem and a new idea. The problem is at this stage there is very little to support a split in the Empire that would resemble the civil war. Did the Ironmen get freed peacefully? Very doubtful. Then how were the sides drawn? Ironmen are much more expensive than slaves, require less upkeep, and can be very practicable in factories as well as on the frontier. This makes having one geographic area that wants to end their bondage rather difficult. And if you still want to do the South vs. the North, the geographic accommodations for the Cajuns have made it difficult to create a large enough, unified enough nation that could hold off the might of the industrial north for long. Plus the North generally controlled the sea, which was an important aspect of their success, as the South could not make good equipment, and they could not trade their valuable crops for it as only a few ships could run the blockade.

As far as their relative costs, I imagine Ironmen to be about the same as slaves. Though they may not need to eat, I imagine them becoming REALLY finicky if they're not maintained regularly, the point being to balance them better with other PC races. They may be a little tougher or stronger than normal humans, but they're just as costly to use. With that in mind, the industrialized portion of the nation might not want to employ them, solving that problem.

Addressing the other problem: what if the roles of the North and South in the war were switched? What if, in this world, the North were the ones that had plantations and used Ironmen for labor, and the South was the more industrialized, sea-worthy region? If makes sense, considering that the Southeast of this continent is one huge peninsula, and because the North has better access to that plain. The North wouldn't be able to trade their crops with natives because of encroachment, and might not even have access to much of the plains region because of active conflict, or a lack of pioneering at the time. Similarly, the South would be even better poised to form a blockade, since the North would only really be able to trade with Coterois.

Come to think of it, Coterois wouldn't have any other access to steady food supplies, so maybe they sided with the North even though they're so far South. Even more reason for them to have a reputation for a seedy underworld: they're a haven for those who are still sore about losing the war.

On another note, we are missing a John Brown. How about a Cleric of Freedom named James Cooper, who spent a lot of time on the frontier bushwhacking pro-servitude men. Fed up by how little his efforts were doing, he marches on the largest repository of weapons and tries to capture it with a small force. Unfortunately, he is unable to convince the old, beaten down Ironmen in the area to join him, and he is defeated by a small force.

I dig it. I'm really loving all the input from everyone about historical figures (we can use it!), but I haven't seen a whole lot done for mythic American figures. Anyone want to tackle Pecos Bill? Paul Bunyan? Johnny Appleseed?

Come to think of it, we are going to end up with a lot of martyrs. Honest Lincoln, Iron Henry, James Cooper. And that's just the start!
Oh, and a link you might find useful Native myths thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226836)

Thanks! Skimming the first few pages, there's a lot of info there that we already have here, but a lot more that we don't. It will make for a good read!

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-07, 09:00 PM

Addressing the other problem: what if the roles of the North and South in the war were switched? What if, in this world, the North were the ones that had plantations and used Ironmen for labor, and the South was the more industrialized, sea-worthy region? If makes sense, considering that the Southeast of this continent is one huge peninsula, and because the North has better access to that plain. The North wouldn't be able to trade their crops with natives because of encroachment, and might not even have access to much of the plains region because of active conflict, or a lack of pioneering at the time. Similarly, the South would be even better poised to form a blockade, since the North would only really be able to trade with Coterois.

Hmmm. Could work. I'd stick with that, but maybe reverse which one is Pro and Anti-Slavery. Think of it: A rural Plantation based economy doesn't have the tools to maintain Ironmen. Factories do. You could have the war be between a rural, more magically based North versus a more urbanized/mechanized South who shackles Ironmen to their factories.

Just a thought to switch things up. It also would make the winners more sympathetic (not that the original Union wasn't) by transforming them from an Unstoppable Industrial Juggernaut into a Rag-tag bunch of Misfits trying to right a great wrong against terrible odds. RL Americans love underdogs. It also lets you use the Magic v Tech theme in the form of a direct contest. That said, this world's war doesn't need to end so clear-cut and clean. Perhaps there's a short era of splintering during and after the war before re-unification can take place. Maybe only the Slavery issue is resolved while both Nature and Tech take a hit.

But above all else, if you plan to flesh out Pseudo-America's Civil War (seriously, we need a name for this Empire), it has to be big. Not just in casualties or in numbers, but in ideas. The American Civil War was our culture's Odyssey. A fictional version of it should carry no less grandiosity.

Come to think of it, Coterois wouldn't have any other access to steady food supplies, so maybe they sided with the North even though they're so far South. Even more reason for them to have a reputation for a seedy underworld: they're a haven for those who are still sore about losing the war.

RL New Orleans was allied with the South, but got itself swiftly occupied by the Union in short order. Personally? I'd make Coterois into this world's Casablanca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film) ), a place that, during the war, acted with great autonomy due to its remoteness, acting as both City (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CityOfSpies ) of (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Casablanca) Spies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WretchedHive ) and gateway out of a war-torn nation. During the war, Coterois was of great strategic importance (it was hard to chase smugglers into the swamps and its sailors were experienced enough to run blockades with ease), that it was the unoffical middle ground, where agents of the North and South could meet, both for diplomatic purposes, espionage and occasionally assassination. After the war, the city became a safe haven for deserters and veterans alike, particularly the more violent element who couldn't let go of the carnage they saw.

I dig it. I'm really loving all the input from everyone about historical figures (we can use it!), but I haven't seen a whole lot done for mythic American figures. Anyone want to tackle Pecos Bill? Paul Bunyan? Johnny Appleseed?

Nothing so far beyond that Poe idea. I'll think on it.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-07, 10:39 PM

Hmmm. Could work. I'd stick with that, but maybe reverse which one is Pro and Anti-Slavery. Think of it: A rural Plantation based economy doesn't have the tools to maintain Ironmen. Factories do. You could have the war be between a rural, more magically based North versus a more urbanized/mechanized South who shackles Ironmen to their factories.

Just a thought to switch things up. It also would make the winners more sympathetic (not that the original Union wasn't) by transforming them from an Unstoppable Industrial Juggernaut into a Rag-tag bunch of Misfits trying to right a great wrong against terrible odds. RL Americans love underdogs. It also lets you use the Magic v Tech theme in the form of a direct contest. That said, this world's war doesn't need to end so clear-cut and clean. Perhaps there's a short era of splintering during and after the war before re-unification can take place. Maybe only the Slavery issue is resolved while both Nature and Tech take a hit.

But above all else, if you plan to flesh out Pseudo-America's Civil War (seriously, we need a name for this Empire), it has to be big. Not just in casualties or in numbers, but in ideas. The American Civil War was our culture's Odyssey. A fictional version of it should carry no less grandiosity.

I like those ideas, but I'm a little cautious. I like the idea of steam technology spreading with the years, and I feel like the industrial region winning is the only way to accomplish that. At the same time, it seems strange that an agrarian region would rely on automatons and still be noticeably different from an industrial region. Also, will the setting be too radically different from the real world if the agrarian nation wins? Let's work through this stuff.

Big Ideas behind the war: ensuring the freedom that brought the Empire to these shores in the first place, and the fight to recognize the worth of all (Imperial?) sentience?

RL New Orleans was allied with the South, but got itself swiftly occupied by the Union in short order. Personally? I'd make Coterois into this world's Casablanca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film) ), a place that, during the war, acted with great autonomy due to its remoteness, acting as both City (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CityOfSpies ) of (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Casablanca) Spies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WretchedHive ) and gateway out of a war-torn nation. During the war, Coterois was of great strategic importance (it was hard to chase smugglers into the swamps and its sailors were experienced enough to run blockades with ease), that it was the unoffical middle ground, where agents of the North and South could meet, both for diplomatic purposes, espionage and occasionally assassination. After the war, the city became a safe haven for deserters and veterans alike, particularly the more violent element who couldn't let go of the carnage they saw.

That idea is just. too. cool! I'm totally down with it. Maybe with a dash of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj4RBmU-PIo)? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything cooler than Steampunk Noir Zombies in the Wild West.

Nothing so far beyond that Poe idea. I'll think on it.

Think harder! :smalltongue:

On another note: the double-action revolver wasn't developed until the 1880s, which limits people in our world from going rapid-fire mode unless they're REALLY good, which I like. There's also an implication that you can shoot faster if you're only holding one gun. Alternately, you could have two guns, shoot less often, but have two different enhancements at your disposal. I like these ideas.

I also watched Sukiyaki Western Django (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nluPs-nGngk) tonight, and it restored my faith in the ability to have guns and sword side-by-side. Wunderbar!

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-07, 10:43 PM

And while I'm online: as far as names are concerned, I think this continent needs one badly. The Empire can just be the "Empire of ________"

America was named after Amerigo Vespucci... but I don't think I like that. I'm leaning towards playing with "Manifest Destiny." Thoughts?

Another mythical figure: what if we take a page from Disney, and bring Baron Samedi down to earth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZAY-78zhmw)? He could be a pretty nice BBEG.

Baltor

2012-02-07, 10:44 PM

In the second largest state with the second largest populace everything should be doubled in size. Also they should always reffer to their home state rather than country of origin when asked where they come from by people from other continents/countries.They should have the reputation of being slow witted an beligerent, even though they are one of the most technologically advanced and friendly peoples.

Baltor

2012-02-07, 10:57 PM

Bebbaria could be a good name as it is a play on Bebbia which means Gods pledge, and could play into the whole manifest destiny thing.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-09, 10:38 AM

What language is that from? Hebrew? I think I'd rather stick to something a little more European.

Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas#Etymology_and_naming) an interesting couple of paragraphs, though I don't think it helps us out. Who knew that the New World is basically named Henrietta? :smalltongue:

As for a name for this place, what if we just called it "The New World?" It's got that sense of discovery and destiny attached to it, it's easily recognizable, and "The Empire of the New World" sounds pretty cool. Even if we end up coming up with a different name for it later on, I figure we can use this as a placeholder.

On a different note, I think I can flesh out the Native creation myth a little better. We've already got the bits about people originating in the earth, and I found a similar myth while reading a Nat Geo article about Cave-Dwelling Papua New Guineans.

Basically, there was this divine being (the First Creator for our purposes) who walked around and saw all the cool plants and animals and thought "hey, this would be a cool place for people to live." So he went to this cave, opened a crack in the back of it, and people started to crawl out. They came out in tribal groups, but eventually he said "OK, that's enough," and closed the crack, leaving some people back in the earth.

Working that into our Native creation myth would allow us to justify the existence of things underground, and I think it falls in nicely with the idea that those underground beings are both primal and spiritual. I also like the idea of flipping the creation stories (First Creator was in the North and Lone Man was in the South) just because those sacred mountains are in the north. How can we work the Lone Man narrative into the above legend?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-10, 02:23 AM

As for a name for this place, what if we just called it "The New World?" It's got that sense of discovery and destiny attached to it, it's easily recognizable, and "The Empire of the New World" sounds pretty cool. Even if we end up coming up with a different name for it later on, I figure we can use this as a placeholder.

Short, simple. I like it. I was trying (and failing) to work with Columbia for a name, as that is another poetic name for America.

Working that into our Native creation myth would allow us to justify the existence of things underground, and I think it falls in nicely with the idea that those underground beings are both primal and spiritual. I also like the idea of flipping the creation stories (First Creator was in the North and Lone Man was in the South) just because those sacred mountains are in the north. How can we work the Lone Man narrative into the above legend?

Not too fluent in the Lone Man story (except through a cursory wiki dive), but I think I can help. If you want a Devil-figure (the Disney Method of working with mythology), then the Lone Man could be the shadow cast by the First Creator. He is, in essence, the First Destroyer and he brought death into the world. Of course, in the myth itself when the Creator asks his shadow why it created death, the Lone Man would say, "You were careless, and brought too much life to the world. Life multiplies too fast, and if I did not create an end to it, Life would become miserable when it used up all the land."

Or the Lone Man could be the brother of the First Creator, but I'd still have him create stuff like death in the above example. I think the original myth (read here (http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/FirstCreatorandLoneMan-Mandan.html)) had something to do with death coming into the world via a frog, but I just gave that job to Lone Man. I kinda like the idea of making some of the Natives a little Zarathustran in that they see a Good and Evil force at work in the world, but that neither is perfect. The First Creator created many good things, but also the bad, and he may be a bit careless in his wanton creation. The Lone Man is implacable as death itself, but he tempers his Brother's frivolities with cold, hard rationalism.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-10, 12:43 PM

Not too fluent in the Lone Man story (except through a cursory wiki dive), but I think I can help. If you want a Devil-figure (the Disney Method of working with mythology), then the Lone Man could be the shadow cast by the First Creator. He is, in essence, the First Destroyer and he brought death into the world. Of course, in the myth itself when the Creator asks his shadow why it created death, the Lone Man would say, "You were careless, and brought too much life to the world. Life multiplies too fast, and if I did not create an end to it, Life would become miserable when it used up all the land."

Or the Lone Man could be the brother of the First Creator, but I'd still have him create stuff like death in the above example. I think the original myth (read here (http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/FirstCreatorandLoneMan-Mandan.html)) had something to do with death coming into the world via a frog, but I just gave that job to Lone Man. I kinda like the idea of making some of the Natives a little Zarathustran in that they see a Good and Evil force at work in the world, but that neither is perfect. The First Creator created many good things, but also the bad, and he may be a bit careless in his wanton creation. The Lone Man is implacable as death itself, but he tempers his Brother's frivolities with cold, hard rationalism.

I like it. To match it up with the story in TheMeMan's post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12608371&postcount=40), we could say that Lone Man's rational side helped to create the social group in Native cultures. To maintain the balance, First Creator created all the deadly and dangerous things as well as the good things, and the society created by Lone Man protects the Natives from those things. This muddies the waters a little bit in terms of the life-death dichotomy, but maybe that's the way it should be. Life is generally good but can be specifically bad, and Death is dreadful but forces a very helpful rationale on the world. Well looky there! That might be a dandy theme upon which to build a lot of Native cultural minutiae. It enforces the kind of "respect everything and examine everything with wisdom" thing that you see pop up in Native American velvet paintings. :smalltongue:

TheMeMan

2012-02-10, 04:53 PM

Short, simple. I like it. I was trying (and failing) to work with Columbia for a name, as that is another poetic name for America.

Not too fluent in the Lone Man story (except through a cursory wiki dive), but I think I can help. If you want a Devil-figure (the Disney Method of working with mythology), then the Lone Man could be the shadow cast by the First Creator. He is, in essence, the First Destroyer and he brought death into the world. Of course, in the myth itself when the Creator asks his shadow why it created death, the Lone Man would say, "You were careless, and brought too much life to the world. Life multiplies too fast, and if I did not create an end to it, Life would become miserable when it used up all the land."

Or the Lone Man could be the brother of the First Creator, but I'd still have him create stuff like death in the above example. I think the original myth (read here (http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/FirstCreatorandLoneMan-Mandan.html)) had something to do with death coming into the world via a frog, but I just gave that job to Lone Man. I kinda like the idea of making some of the Natives a little Zarathustran in that they see a Good and Evil force at work in the world, but that neither is perfect. The First Creator created many good things, but also the bad, and he may be a bit careless in his wanton creation. The Lone Man is implacable as death itself, but he tempers his Brother's frivolities with cold, hard rationalism.

Actually, Lone Man was pretty much entirely a culture-Hero figure who was friend to man. First Creator, once again depending on the story, was more of an antagonist than a benevolent being. Essentially Lone Man was associated with the Village, Man, and domestication. Whereas First Creator was associated more heavily with the "Wilds", and natural forces and the like.

Edit: On that note, I had a thought for creation. Basically, First Creator is a divine creator of all things(Even Lone Man), though is indifferent towards concepts of "Good" and "Evil". He created life to populate his world(Or continent), and Death as effective other side of the coin. However, he did not create Man proper-rather he opened a rift into the underground where they had been created. Lone Man was one of these original men to have come from the underground(All the others are long since dead). Lone Man taught the people how to exist within the Above World, and created rules that governed their lives within the villages. First Creator knew that left unchecked, these beings would soon overpopulate his world and created Death. However, Death is not an end in itself, as the "spirits" of the dead essentially become incorporated into the land, allowing the "Natural" world to flourish.

Lone Man, however, somehow alluded death, and his risen to Godhood, and is worshiped by any tribes that live within villages of all sorts. Those that do not worship Lone Man are the "Wild men" or some such, who revere First Creator first and foremost and despise Lone Man as someone who refuses to acknowledge the natural order. First Creator does not see it this way, as he see the Village life as merely another form of his creation(Remember: Neither good nor evil, his wisdom allows him to see all things within his realm as being a part of a greater whole).

With that brief summary, some ideas on Lone Man and other things involving your backstories:

1. He and the other original surface dwellers are behind the ancient technology in the south. He effectively used said technology to become immortal and gain incredible power. He is now essentially a god because of this, at least when viewed by mortal men.

2. The technology, in essence, is powered by the spirits of the dead. Likely only willing spirits would become part of this technology. In a similar vein as to how spirits of the Dead become incorporated into the land.

3. The "Wild Men" could be antagonists or even an allied group. They would oppose both the Empire and most of the Native Tribes as being an affront toward First Creator. They would be heavily interested in destroying the ancient native technology for good, and bringing an end to Lone Man.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-11, 12:19 AM

Thought of something for mythic folk heroes (I know Zap wanted more of these)!

Along the border between the Empire and Borado, there exists a land rich in resources and culture known as Latobas, or “horrible desert” in the language of the Natives, who lacked damming technology to profit from the land. Steam technology has made the land prosperous, but only for the wealthy landowners, who use their power with the local Governors to keep the local people held in near-serfdom.

But among the aristocrats there is one man who refused to destroy the little people. By day, he was wealthy playboy, Jefito Grandolas. By night, he was Blackfox! masked savior of the poor and downtrodden. He would ride into town on a black steed and rob the local corrupt officials, disperse their ill-gotten gains among the people, and then vanish as if he were a shadow.

Aiding him is an Imperial, a mysterious masked man whose god-like skill with the revolver is a perfect match for Blackfox's skill with the blade. This mysterious man is called, the Masked Imperial because, let's face it, none of the poor and downtrodden were particularly well-educated or very clever. The Masked Imperial, according to folklore, fights injustice wherever he finds it in order to avenge the deaths of his family at the hands of bandits.

In addition, they are aided by the Masked Imperials long-time friend, an exiled Shaman of the Native peoples, Kutu. Kutu is often heard calling the Masked Imperial Rantamabe, which no one has the heart to actually translate for the Masked Imperial (hint: it rhymes with “nick-bed”).

Together, these three men battle injustice in the Grand West!

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-12, 03:42 PM

Ugh! I had a big post written up when I got 505'ed! :smallmad:

TheMeMan's Lone Man stuff

I like where this is going. In particular, I like how the Wild Men seem like some sort of radical, fringe group. I picture them wandering around in "packs," preying on every city dweller. Some thoughts:

1. I want to keep the southern technology in the hands of extraterrestrials. I'm not ready to commit to the idea of gods being active/actually existing. Part of the reason why I gave domains to organizations in the first place was to put the power of domains in the hands of faith instead of certainty. I know this won't be Faerun, with gods walking around incarnate and all, but it might not be devoid of divine power.

2. As far as the Wild Men as antagonists goes, I think it would be cool if more and more Village Natives were defecting to the "packs" with the encroaching, society-heavy Empire. Not only does this introduce conflict into the Native side of things (we've already got that within the Empire), but it also creates a hard-to-read situation: Imperials see some Natives attacking them, others leaving them alone, and still other actively helping them, with seemingly no regard to ethnicity/location. Murky waters make for interesting stories!

Ninjadeadbeard's Zorro Blackfox and Lone Ranger Masked Imperial

Ha! I'm linking to that in the first post. Well done!

I found this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11719683#post11719683), and it's exactly what I'm looking for. Booyah.

What we need next:

Potential Homebrew Stuff: I'm thinking that Pathfinder is the way to go, but ToB is going to have to play a role, too. Since this is Steampunk, does anyone know of any relevant Homebrew? Classes, vehicles, items, you name it.
More mythic heroes. I'd like to see a few Native heroes. TheMeMan, you seem to be pretty savvy about this stuff. Care to give it a go? I just had a funny idea for a Hiawatha equivalen who's arch enemy is a Lake Monster :smalltongue:
Pictures. I'm a very visual person, so any pictures anyone has/can find that would fit the setting are totally welcome.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-13, 02:27 PM

2. As far as the Wild Men as antagonists goes, I think it would be cool if more and more Village Natives were defecting to the "packs" with the encroaching, society-heavy Empire. Not only does this introduce conflict into the Native side of things (we've already got that within the Empire), but it also creates a hard-to-read situation: Imperials see some Natives attacking them, others leaving them alone, and still other actively helping them, with seemingly no regard to ethnicity/location. Murky waters make for interesting stories!

Ooh. Sounds like The Ghost Dance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Dance). A sort of religious revitalization occurs among the Natives (The Wild Men) and the Imperials react. The only difference would be that the Wild Men really are starting trouble and revolution, as opposed to starting a Pacifist philosophy like with the RL instance.

Potential Homebrew Stuff: I'm thinking that Pathfinder is the way to go, but ToB is going to have to play a role, too. Since this is Steampunk, does anyone know of any relevant Homebrew? Classes, vehicles, items, you name it.

Well, we could always use Legend. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231615) It's a pretty cool system made by Playgrounders. I'm still reading through the core rules, but I hear on this board that it's highly balanced and customizable.

Pictures. I'm a very visual person, so any pictures anyone has/can find that would fit the setting are totally welcome.

Can't help you there. Can't draw :smallsmile:.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-14, 12:24 PM

I like the idea of using Legend a whole lot. I downloaded it a few weeks ago, and its exactly what I had been looking for in a system. We'd have to re-skin a lot of stuff (races in particular), but that doesn't take any time at all.

JackRackham

2012-02-16, 01:48 AM

You should REALLY incorporate Daniel Boone, David Bowie and Davy Crockett into this world (a single character, an amalgamation of the three, would serve well here). Wild Bill Hickock would be another possibility. Billy the Kid, Jesse James and Doc Holliday could be another character archetype. Wyatt Earp and his ilk would be yet another prominent in the mythos. I would also include a legendary chief archetype like Sitting Bull and a mythic native warrior like Crazy Horse.

EDIT: I realize these people existed (unlike your Paul Bunyans, etc), but they have nevertheless become as big a part of the American mythology as anyone. Moreover, most of the early myths, those not crafted for political reasons (as many of our entirely fictional myths have been), are believed to have come from real people. Solomon, David and Gilgamesh are known to have been real kings. It is believed that Herakles (Hercules) is as well. Zeus and the other Greek Gods are thought to have orginated with mythologized kings of an earlier age (probably on the C. Asian steppe, before the Indo-Europeans migrated to Europe), later evolving into a pantheon from which evolved the Sumerian Gods, Norse Gods, Olympic Gods, and others.

My point is, don't discard anyone because they happened to exist.

Aso, on classes, I'd find a special place for the Ranger, Scout and Swash in this campaign world, to the point of homebrewing them to be more competitive. Lastly, I made a PrC a while back for an NPC, didn't have time for a pretty chart and all that and the class would need some work, but there are some interesting ideas here for a spaghetti-western-esque PrC.

The Durvin

2012-02-16, 12:00 PM

I was working on a novel on just this subject up until my old computer died--it was pretty different in tone, so I don't mind pointing out a few sources.

Firstly, get your butt on Wikipedia and look up American folk heroes; there's a lot of minor ones that are largely forgotten nowadays, but they're still prime fodder for this kind of thing. What Paul Bunyan was to lumberjacks and Pecos Bill to cowboys, Febold Feboldson was to farmers, Mike Fink was to keelboaters, Alfred Bulltop Stormalong was to sailors. Homeboy had a ship so big, he kept a stable of horses on board to get around, and the masts were hinged so they wouldn't break off against the moon.

And as for monsters, I recommend you to the notion of Fearsome Critters: mostly made up by lumberjacks, but many came from European legends, like the Sidehill Gouger, a grazing animal with its left legs shorter than its right so it could graze on mountains. There was the Squonk, an animal so ugly it was uncatchable, and one I've forgotten the name of that looks like a fur coat, but eats people when they put it on.

As for settings, you can't do exploration myths without a lost city of gold. There's also an urban legend about mysterious shipwrecks in the California desert, possibly the result of a dried-up river. And this might be giving too much away from my own work, but you cannot forget Big Rock Candy Mountain.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-16, 03:54 PM

My point is, don't discard anyone because they happened to exist.

Noted. In fact, the first mythic hero we wrote up was a play on Nikola Tesla! Any chance you'd like to try and write something up for that Boone/Bowie/Crockett character? Sounds like a pretty good idea to me!

Aso, on classes, I'd find a special place for the Ranger, Scout and Swash in this campaign world, to the point of homebrewing them to be more competitive. Lastly, I made a PrC a while back for an NPC, didn't have time for a pretty chart and all that and the class would need some work, but there are some interesting ideas here for a spaghetti-western-esque PrC.

Well, I'm pretty sure we're going to end up using Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/) for this setting, and they've got a pretty good handle on all kinds of ranger-y, scout-y, swashbuckler-ish stuff. As for myself, I'm a HUGE fan of dextrous combat and gunslinging, so I couldn't agree more!

Heroes, monsters, and settings.

Ha! My great grandfather was a Swedish farmer in the midwest, so that Febold story is completely awesome. Mike Fink would make for a good captain of a ship in the big gulf (I guess we need a name for that... "Fink's Drink?" :smalltongue:), and Stormalong was something someone suggested earlier. Now all I need to do is the gruntwork. Thanks for the suggestions!

As far as monsters go, I have literally no experience homebrewing monsters, so that is something that I'm putting on the back burner for now. That said, your suggestions are great!

A lost city of gold might fit somewhere in the Place of the Gods. Maybe a jungle oasis in the middle of the desert? I also like the idea of derelict ships in the middle of the desert. Maybe there was a big airship battle between the Empire and the New Boradoans, and the wreckage of that battle has formed a huge airship graveyard? Maybe it's a home for bandits?

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-16, 05:40 PM

Well, looky there! Mulletmanalive done drew up a Thunderbird (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9171264#post9171264)!

I don't know how that's going to translate into Legend stats, but I have a feeling that it will be pretty easy to translate. Legend seems to be all about putting creative power in the hands of the consumer.

JackRackham

2012-02-16, 08:38 PM

I can probably bring something to the table, a character concept (I'm familiar with Legend), a kind of plot overview for his myth, and some general guidelines for how the character would act. For any more than that, I'd really need to understand the setting and geography better.

EDIT: Off the top of my head, I'd go with a kid who learns to hunt from frontiersmen and Natives, runs away from home to escape trouble at school (kicked out for fighting), comes back and starts a family, then progressively migrates West as each of the areas he opens up become home to successive waves of settlers and game becomes scarce (and he gets lawyered out of his claims to land).

Key to the mistique of the man is the 'long hunt.' He disappears for months at a time (occasionally years, if something goes wrong, or the hunting is unusually good), into the wilderness, returning with hundreds of furs to sell and trade, and possibly with some new land he's scouted. In the military, he is the ultimate scout, guerilla fighter, marksman, and small settlement defender. He would be a captain (later colonel) in the militia in each of the periodic wars and acquit himself well. He may die in a heroic last stand against a native group or some old-world imperial force.

This character should be functionally literate, but just barely, not especially educated, but very quick-witted and well-versed in the ways of nature and frontier society. He should also be liked and respected, he should be a leader, but he shouldn't fit in too well.

At some points he might also serve in the frontier government, though he's periodically in debt, and he is by turns friendly with (even adopted into) and at war with (the equivalent of Native groups). He becomes a legend, but remains a vagabond, continually growing tired of an area, as it becomes civilized and going to find a new fronteir. I'll add more later.

EDIT 2: In Legend, he is a full buy-in Ranger with Professional Soldier, Reign of Arrows, Battle Tempering and Tactical Insight. His stats are prioritized: DEX, INT (due to ranger, if you can switch the D track to wisdom, this makes more sense), CON, STR, WIS, CHA. His Legendary Abilities are: Magic bullet, Plot Armor, Awesome Presence, Old Hero. Possible Feats include: By Will Sustained, Sniper, Musketeer, Big Damn Hero, Fish In Water, Monkey Business, Breakneck Pace, Exit Stage Left, and Sinister Sinews. Trained Skills: Athletics, Stealth, K. Geography, K. Nature, Perception, and either Acrobatics or Ride. He fights with a Rifle and has a big Bowie Knife (it would be named after him) to skin animals and defend himself at close quarters. His name: Bowie Boone? Daviel Boonkett? Daniel Brockett (my name!!)? Daniel Bowie? Jim Boone? I don't know. It depends on your naming conventions. "King of the Wild Frontier" is the best of any of their nicknames.

I'd like to give you specific stories, but I don't know your world well enough. I would direct you to the story of "The Sandbar Fight," however. There was a duel in which Jim bowie was not involved. It ended peacefully. A fight broke out afterward, however, amongst those in support of Bowie's friend and those in support of his rival. The other side focused on Bowie who was shot, stabbed, run through, shot again, and shot again, all while managing to be on the winning side, disembowel a man with his knife, cut off part of another man's forearm and survive, somehow.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbar_Fight

Boone had two interesting stories. In one, he was defending a town called Boonesborough against the Shawnee (who were pissed about Boone leading the settlement of their land - we call it all of Kentucky). They were under siege and the shawnee were wrecking their crops. Boone led an expedition to get salt to preserve their meager food supply, but was captured. He convinced the Shawnee not to attack, saying the settlement couldn't last the Winter and would surrender in Spring. He was then adopted into the tribe. When they went to claim the town, he stole away in the night, warned the town and saved their bacon - then he was tried as a traitor (acquitted and promoted), since he'd not had time to tell anyone of his plans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Boonesborough

In another Story, his daughter and two of her friends were kidnapped by Shawnee and Boone tracked them down over three days, killed two of them and brought the girls back unscathed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_and_rescue_of_Jemima_Boone In another incident, his son and another boy were captured and tortured to death. Two of his brothers also died with him during the Indian Wars.

Stories of Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone keeping the military units they fought in alive with their hunting prowess are also prominent, important, and probably true. There are also a lot of stories about being tough as sh*t. Boone, for instance, was shot in the kneecap (shattered, btw) less than a year before he led the expedition to get salt.

Also, the Alamo happened. Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie were both there and they both died there, Crockett bravely defending a church full of non-combatants, Bowie sick in bed (....probably, he was very ill. Some say he sucked it up and fought hard in their last stand, but who the hell knows?).

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-18, 08:52 PM

Wow! Somehow I missed this amongst all of my subscriptions. I LOVE the character!

If you're all right with it, I think Daniel Brockett is just similar enough to clue people in, and just foreign enough to be an original name. Mind if we use it?

As far as the character goes, all I can picture is this Fiftysomething who's past his prime, but he's so tough and energetic that he's still the most powerful figure in the world. Something like an old, gruff Goku. I think that--with the three stories combined--he's the perfect "trickster" character.

JackRackham

2012-02-19, 07:03 AM

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-20, 02:16 AM

As long as he's in the woods, sure. He'd probably have a hundred "old hunter's tricks." As to the name, sure. Use it. Just make sure he's badass. For what it's worth, if you're going with a 50-ish character, I'm picturing kind of a Clint Eastwood-looking older guy - weather-beaten, squinty face, heavy scruff. Yes.

I'd say make Clint a separate character. Daniel Brockett strikes me as a ranger, like you said. Well, if that's the case, Clint Eastwood (or Grit Westfield) tends to play misanthropic or cynical men. He's less about surviving in the natural wilderness and more about surviving in the human wilderness. He's the Old Man who long ago gave up his idealism and occasionally performs petty cruelties on those he feels earn it, but he can't shake the fact that deep, deep down he is a moral person who is willing to take the fight to corruption in all its forms.

Grit is (with only a cursory glance at the rules) a Full buy-in multiclass Rouge/Esoterica/Discipline of the Crane/Acrobatic Adept/Reign of Arrows. His KOM is Intelligence, and his KDM is Constitution. I don't much feel like going through and looking up all the possible feats and items and such he'd have, but he's probably got guns in there somewhere. :smallsmile:

Discipline of the Crane, I gave him because...well...
Pale Rider and Highplains Drifter make a lot more sense if ole Grit reached the 7th circle, if you catch my drift. Plus he tends to wander in his movies, so high movement works.

I was originally gonna suggest making him a multiclass full buy-in Paladin with a bit of Ranger and Monk, but the alternative is easier.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-20, 12:36 PM

OK! I'm going to link to those two characters in the OP, but first I'll cook up a guy for a Pecos Bill substitute.

There are cattle barons on the range today that are said to turn lush prairie into desert and dry up rivers with the size of their herds. They rule some parts of the West with a rawhide fist, but none of them can boast such success as Concho Tex, the wildest cowboy ever to sit a horse.

They say he was raised by a pack of giant wolves, and that set him to lookin' down on cats of all stripes. They say some wagon train "rescued" him from savagery on his 10th birthday, but by then he was already full grown and riding a cougar bigger and meaner than any that's been seen before or since.

He tends to show up after a hard days' work in the field, sittin' down at the campfire bold as you please. He waits until everyone's eaten their fill and warmed themselves against the night, then sets to munching on the charred logs in the fire. He says nothin' else is spicy enough for his digestion.

By the time he was 16 years old, they say he used his rattlesnake lasso to rope and brand every single bull, heifer, and calf across the whole of the New World. He lets 'em all divide up as they please, and doesn't mind other folks takin' care of 'em and turnin' a profit from it; he doesn't have time enough to keep track of all of 'em, anyway.

They say he's only ever loved one woman, a fiery, brazen vixen of a gal by the name of Tribulation Jenny. Her tale's told elsewhere, but they say the two of had an arm wrestlin' contest for her hand in marriage. Since that day, Concho Tex has courted half a hundred fine young ladies, but none would ever match the only woman, man, or beast to best him in single combat.

----

I want to make it clear that "Tex" does not refer to "Texan" in this world. Instead, it's just a normal given name, albeit one that's far more popular in the West than back East.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-20, 12:49 PM

Tribulation Jenny is the most beautiful creature that ever set foot West of the River Manifesto. She's also the toughest, meanest, sharp-shootin'est broad ever to sit a horse, and all men would do wise to remember just that.

She got her start in a traveling circus, going from town to town to lift the spirits of hard working pioneers everywhere. Until they laid eyes on Jenny, no man had ever loved, and no woman had ever known true jealousy. Neither had any man, woman, nor child ever seen a woman shoot the center out of a flipped penny while blindfolded and riding a horse backward.

Tribulation Jenny's been tangled up with near every creature of note in this wild frontier. From the cowboy Concho Tex, to the feared lawman Slate the Killer. The former she fell in love with for his deeds, but couldn't marry him because he wasn't as strong as her. The latter she fell in love with because--alone for all the world--he was her equal with six gun and rifle both. All the same, she's too wild to settle down for long.

Today she spends a fair amount of time over in Tree Island on the Western edge of the plains. Her residence there is Diddlin' Deenas, where she works as a painted woman and will entertain any man that can outdrink her first.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-20, 01:10 PM

Grit Westfield

I love this idea, but I want to emphasize the Pale Rider/High Plains Drifter Stuff. This guy needs to be the Ghost of Killers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_of_Killers#Saint_of_Killers). He needs to be the Spirit of the West (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_with_No_Name). He needs to be this spirit that is fueled by the the killing of lawmen and bastards alike. I just got a plan for him.

Now you have to ask yourself one question: Can I do it? Well? Can ya?

Punk?

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-20, 01:12 PM

QUAAAADRUPLE POOOOST! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bRDP24T7NE)

James Justice Edison, better known by the moniker Slate The Killer, is the finest lawman and gambler in the New World. The only thing more formidable than his poker skills is his moustache, and the only thing more formidable than that is his skill with a gun.

After fighting with the army for a number of years, Slate took up resident on the plains, finding work as a traveling gambler, winning huge pots in noteworthy saloons, and winning pitted gunfights when he was accused of cheating. A fearsomely stern but honest man, Slate was eventually approached by local law enforcement to help wrangle outlaws wherever he went. He soon gained a reputation as an arbiter of law, and chose to wear a Sheriff's badge for the rest of his days.

He takes residence in the city of Tree Island, near the foothills of the Great Western Range. Singlehandedly, he has turned the city into a gambling paradise, and a bastion of law in a lawless world.

His greatest goal in life is to track down and bring to justice a figure known only as Grit Westfield. Though Grit has been known to come to the aid of the poor and downtrodden, he is nevertheless as ruthless killer and vengeful outlaw. Slate the Killer will not rest until Grit lies in a pine box.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-21, 08:50 AM

Quintuple Post. Here we go.

The next time I post, I'm going to transfer the stuff about Dr. Steam to its own post. The format right now is a little distracting.

While I'm thinking about it, though, I think I want whatever Eastern continent the Empire came from to be controlled by vampires. I was watching Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance" video, and I realized that young, attractive, well-dressed, gothic Europeans pretty much all look like vampires. This probably won't have much effect on the game, but it makes for a pretty compelling reason for the Empire to have left. It takes the "freedom" the Empire espouses to a whole new level when they fled from being literal cattle.

Landis963

2012-02-21, 08:27 PM

While I'm thinking about it, though, I think I want whatever Eastern continent the Empire came from to be controlled by vampires. I was watching Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance" video, and I realized that young, attractive, well-dressed, gothic Europeans pretty much all look like vampires. This probably won't have much effect on the game, but it makes for a pretty compelling reason for the Empire to have left. It takes the "freedom" the Empire espouses to a whole new level when they fled from being literal cattle.

I'm assuming these are the badass, Dracula-classic vampires? Not the namby-pamby-yet-somehow-invincible Twilight "vamps"?

Also, I like the setting very much thus far (interplay between legends is convincingly realistic and highly interesting, if a touch conflict-ball-ish in the case of Slate's Javert-esque pursuit of Westfield), However I'm seeing a lot of Wild West-derived stuff (Tribulation Jenny, Slate, Grit Westfield), and not too much John Henry or more East Coast stuff. (EDIT: Concho Tex is the spitting image of Bunyan, and Daniel Brockett the spitting image of Davy Crockett (I see what you did there), both of which count as Midwest IMO)

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-21, 10:23 PM

I'm assuming these are the badass, Dracula-classic vampires? Not the namby-pamby-yet-somehow-invincible Twilight "vamps"?

Correct. And they may not rule openly. It's hard for me to think about vampires without thinking about puppet rulers.

Also, I like the setting very much thus far (interplay between legends is convincingly realistic and highly interesting, if a touch conflict-ball-ish in the case of Slate's Javert-esque pursuit of Westfield), However I'm seeing a lot of Wild West-derived stuff (Tribulation Jenny, Slate, Grit Westfield), and not too much John Henry or more East Coast stuff. (EDIT: Concho Tex is the spitting image of Bunyan, and Daniel Brockett the spitting image of Davy Crockett (I see what you did there), both of which count as Midwest IMO)

Bunyan? He's supposed to be almost exactly like Pecos Bill. :smalltongue:

And I agree with you on all points. For the East, we've got Dr. Steam (Nikola Tesla with a steampunk twist), and we've hinted at the existence of others, but we haven't actually developed anything yet. I was thinking that we need a solid political hero (whether it's a senator or the Emperor himself), a hero for the Romantic movement (someone like a cross between Johnny Appleseed and Henry Thoreau would be awesome), and I'd really love to see an homage to Poe. I'm tempted to say that I'd love to see a mashup between Poe and Lovecraft, but I don't think the world is ready.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-22, 12:53 AM

I'm assuming these are the badass, Dracula-classic vampires? Not the namby-pamby-yet-somehow-invincible Twilight "vamps"?

Of course, of course. But the French ones do sparkle.

I kid! I kid! :smalltongue:

Also, I like the setting very much thus far (interplay between legends is convincingly realistic and highly interesting, if a touch conflict-ball-ish in the case of Slate's Javert-esque pursuit of Westfield), However I'm seeing a lot of Wild West-derived stuff (Tribulation Jenny, Slate, Grit Westfield), and not too much John Henry or more East Coast stuff. (EDIT: Concho Tex is the spitting image of Bunyan, and Daniel Brockett the spitting image of Davy Crockett (I see what you did there), both of which count as Midwest IMO)

Conflict is good. RL America is defined by conflict.

Correct. And they may not rule openly. It's hard for me to think about vampires without thinking about puppet rulers.

I'd have Pseudo-Continental Europe run by Werewolves (especially Pseudo-Germany), and Vampires in Pseudo-Eastern Europe and Pseudo-Russia, although maybe in the latter they are a repressed minority.

“Vampire Vorkers ov de Vorld, UNITE! Down vit humanity! Ve shall be vone people! All equal in the Wampyric Identity! Every Vampire gets his share!”

So, yeah. I got some more Mythic hero types:

Thomas “Tommy” Oakenstride
Tommy Oakenstride was born sometime after the Founding, though no-one knows quite when, and some even say he's as old as the world itself. In truth, know one knows, 'cept Tommy. Perpetually youthful, Tommy was said to have grown up on the eastern edge of the Middle Plains. As a child he played in the forests by his home, and in time he knew the secret names of every tree, bird, squirrel and grass blade.

Then, while out running errands as a young man, he saw the plains for the first time, he very rarely leaving the forests near his home for any reason. As he saw that complete flatness, Tom was compelled by a voice inside him. Gathering up as many acorns from every tree in the forest as he could carry, Tommy went wandering off into the plains. For years he wandered westward, walking paths untrod even by the Natives of his day. But everywhere he went, his trees would not grow. He would plant them, whisper their names to them, but the trees would not grow. The earth there wasn't meant for trees.

Many years passed like this, until he finally reached the Westron Range. But when he started to plant trees, the Mountain Natives demanded he leave. It did not matter to them that he came to grow trees and make the earth bloom. He was an Imperial, an outsider. So, Tom left again, this time going south by Coterois.

In the southern marshland his trees were too heavy for the soil. They'd sink down to the bottom just as soon as they'd rise. It got so bad that at one time he was furiously putting down whole forests at once, and then watched them immediately disappear into the bayou. In an fury he lashed out at his sinking trees, demanding that they stay up, but to no avail. In fact, his thrashing is said to have broken several trees, whose bark started swimming away, turning into the first alligators.

Tom traveled deep into the deserts of Barado, but there his trees had no water. He backtracked north and around the mountains, but found that the snow was becoming too heavy. His trees would break from the weight of the snow as soon as they shot up.

Finally, nearing the end of his days, Tom went around the mountains and found the western coast. And there he found a land rich in soil and people. He dwelt there among the fishermen and grew vast forests for them to enjoy. His trees spread all up and down the coast, and sometimes he spent so long caring for his trees that they'd grow near to the clouds. Tom would have been happy to set down roots for what time he had left and simply enjoy the company of his trees.

But then word came from the East. The Second Revolution had hit the Empire hard. Though the Empire successfully defended their sovereignty, the retreating Old Worlders cast a terrible curse that killed all the trees and forests and animals east of the mountains.

Old Tom wouldn't stand for that. He sent the word to every tree and bush and sapling he had ever laid in the ground. The Last March of the Forests began. Led by Tom and bolstered by the sheer might of his love for growing things, the forest followed their friend across the mountains and plains. With every bit of effort he could muster, Tom brought the Empire back to life with mighty words and powerful song. In the end, the New World blossomed once more with trees and growing things, but Old Tom was spent.

The trees, bursting with lamentation and sorrow, lifted their caretaker on high and carried him to the highest peak of the Westron Range, where it is said that he was buried as a Native Chieftain, the only Imperial ever granted the honor. His trees live on, and some summer nights there are stories of an old man who wanders the old forests and helps guide travelers to safety.

Tom Oakenstride in Legend:
I have no idea. We probably need to write up some new tracks for this guy.

And my old suggestion (in a more proper form):

Usher Ravenholme
Possibly the finest Imperial Poet ever. While his works are legendary (particularly the dark, Gothic Deepcrow), in life he was anything but. As a young boy he was always rather sickly, and was forced by his father to undergo particularly experimental medical treatments, including forced Vampirization. This last one failed to take as young Usher proved one of those few immune to Porphyric Hemophilia. Compounding things further was the sudden death of his mother due to the vampiric blood disease Porphyric Portus (or, Blood Cannibalism, where the blood in a body actually consumes itself. Medical Science/Magic has no answer currently as to where the devoured blood goes). As it tragically turns out, Ravenholme was a carrier for the disease, although midicine being what it was he never knew.

Ravenholme worked furiously at his craft, but found little financial success. His poetry was, as one editor put it, “nice, but a touch gloomy for our readership”. In his early years a dear friend, Henry Isinger, a prominent doctor in his day and a leading authority on Porphyric Hemophilia, died suddenly. It was concluded he died from Porphyric Portus, assumed to have contracted the disease in his lab. Ravenholme had lost another dear friend.

For a number of years, Ravenholme tried his hand at investigative journalism, always turning a keen eye to the underbelly of his hometown, Innmont. A part of the reason his journalism career failed was due to the fact that everyone knew Innmont was a perfectly normal, even exemplary town, and so his outlandish tales of bloodthirsty cults and cosmic monstrosities had little traction.

According to Ravenholme's writings he supposedly worked for an Imperial Bureau whose existence has been denied by authorities. In any case, Ravenholme claimed to have seen beings of such hideous visage and eldritch fashion that even the stars began to tremble as they turned their faintest attention to the mortal world. These “journal” entries were all confiscated shortly after his death. Ravenholme was sent to an asylum shortly before his twenty-seventh birthday.

He was released three years later and spent the rest of his life writing literal tomes of poems and novels. His life, as it turned out, would only last for another two years. His fiance, Alianore Fairweather, died suddenly (suspected Porphyric Portus), and it left the man distraught.

As it would most tragically turn out, Usher Ranvenholme was one of those few individuals that atheists point out while saying, “See? What sick God would ever do that?” Ravenholme was not only a carrier for Porphyric Portus, but was also a latent psionic. His repeated brushes with madness and despair had finally led to a condition known as “Mindbreak”, where (in short), he decided that the universe had to die. The hills which bordered Usher's home are much closer together than they were in his day, because his “Break” was so severe it collapsed spacetime around himself. His house was swallowed by the earth and no one lives near the site. People who do visit the area tend to disappear as they sometimes step through reality and fall into Usher's mind, dooming themselves to forever roam the halls of an infinite house of despair, desolation and death.

Usher Ravenholme in Legend
Again, no clue.

"Mindbreak" is a good word. I would guess Mooky (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-05-25) came up with it? Dunno. Giving credit. Correct if wrong.

Landis963

2012-02-22, 01:33 AM

Correct. And they may not rule openly. It's hard for me to think about vampires without thinking about puppet rulers.

That's a good point. I always just kind of assumed that vampires would either rule openly, or stay out of human affairs to lull us into a false state of security, when there's no reason for them not to use us to their advantage.

Bunyan? He's supposed to be almost exactly like Pecos Bill. :smalltongue:

:smallwink: Not that either wouldn't work: As I recall, Bunyan and Pecos Bill are cut from the same cloth.

And I agree with you on all points. For the East, we've got Dr. Steam (Nikola Tesla with a steampunk twist),

I actually didn't see a post about him, maybe I missed it on an earlier page?

and we've hinted at the existence of others, but we haven't actually developed anything yet. I was thinking that we need a solid political hero (whether it's a senator or the Emperor himself), a hero for the Romantic movement (someone like a cross between Johnny Appleseed and Henry Thoreau would be awesome), and I'd really love to see an homage to Poe. I'm tempted to say that I'd love to see a mashup between Poe and Lovecraft, but I don't think the world is ready.

And Ninjadeadbeard provides.

Of course, of course. But the French ones do sparkle.

I kid! I kid! :smalltongue:

:smallamused: Good thing you put up that disclaimer. I almost thought you were being serious there. [/sarcasm]

Conflict is good. RL America is defined by conflict.

I know that, but there's a difference between normal conflict and conflict-ball conflict. Conflict ball conflict is much more contrived and pointless. Something about Slate's monomania (as I read it) rubs me the wrong way. If there was a personal grudge between them (maybe Grit killed a wrongdoer who Slate promised to bring in unharmed, for example) I could understand it, but right now it's unclear as to why Slate just doesn't ride him out of his jurisdiction with a few warning shots (or "warning" shots as the case may be) and leave it at that. Maybe I'm missing something about this.

I'd have Pseudo-Continental Europe run by Werewolves (especially Pseudo-Germany), and Vampires in Pseudo-Eastern Europe and Pseudo-Russia, although maybe in the latter they are a repressed minority.

“Vampire Vorkers ov de Vorld, UNITE! Down vit humanity! Ve shall be vone people! All equal in the Wampyric Identity! Every Vampire gets his share!”

First off, :smallamused: I see what you did there. Second off, Vampires are veeerrry much an aristocratic monster in the way that werewolves are veeerrry much a lower-class monster. If anything, Werewolf packs should rule Germany, and Vampire bloodlines should rule everything else, but those werewolf packs that are in the pseudo-Russia should be subjugated along with the humans.

So, yeah. I got some more Mythic hero types:

Thomas “Tommy” Oakenstride
Tommy Oakenstride was born sometime after the Founding, though no-one knows quite when, and some even say he's as old as the world itself. In truth, know one knows, 'cept Tommy. Perpetually youthful, Tommy was said to have grown up on the eastern edge of the Middle Plains. As a child he played in the forests by his home, and in time he knew the secret names of every tree, bird, squirrel and grass blade.

Then, while out running errands as a young man, he saw the plains for the first time, he very rarely leaving the forests near his home for any reason. As he saw that complete flatness, Tom was compelled by a voice inside him. Gathering up as many acorns from every tree in the forest as he could carry, Tommy went wandering off into the plains. For years he wandered westward, walking paths untrod even by the Natives of his day. But everywhere he went, his trees would not grow. He would plant them, whisper their names to them, but the trees would not grow. The earth there wasn't meant for trees.

Many years passed like this, until he finally reached the Westron Range. But when he started to plant trees, the Mountain Natives demanded he leave. It did not matter to them that he came to grow trees and make the earth bloom. He was an Imperial, an outsider. So, Tom left again, this time going south by Coterois.

In the southern marshland his trees were too heavy for the soil. They'd sink down to the bottom just as soon as they'd rise. It got so bad that at one time he was furiously putting down whole forests at once, and then watched them immediately disappear into the bayou. In an fury he lashed out at his sinking trees, demanding that they stay up, but to no avail. In fact, his thrashing is said to have broken several trees, whose bark started swimming away, turning into the first alligators.

Tom traveled deep into the deserts of Barado, but there his trees had no water. He backtracked north and around the mountains, but found that the snow was becoming too heavy. His trees would break from the weight of the snow as soon as they shot up.

Finally, nearing the end of his days, Tom went around the mountains and found the western coast. And there he found a land rich in soil and people. He dwelt there among the fishermen and grew vast forests for them to enjoy. His trees spread all up and down the coast, and sometimes he spent so long caring for his trees that they'd grow near to the clouds. Tom would have been happy to set down roots for what time he had left and simply enjoy the company of his trees.

But then word came from the East. The Second Revolution had hit the Empire hard. Though the Empire successfully defended their sovereignty, the retreating Old Worlders cast a terrible curse that killed all the trees and forests and animals east of the mountains.

Old Tom wouldn't stand for that. He sent the word to every tree and bush and sapling he had ever laid in the ground. The Last March of the Forests began. Led by Tom and bolstered by the sheer might of his love for growing things, the forest followed their friend across the mountains and plains. With every bit of effort he could muster, Tom brought the Empire back to life with mighty words and powerful song. In the end, the New World blossomed once more with trees and growing things, but Old Tom was spent.

The trees, bursting with lamentation and sorrow, lifted their caretaker on high and carried him to the highest peak of the Westron Range, where it is said that he was buried as a Native Chieftain, the only Imperial ever granted the honor. His trees live on, and some summer nights there are stories of an old man who wanders the old forests and helps guide travelers to safety.

Tom Oakenstride in Legend:
I have no idea. We probably need to write up some new tracks for this guy.

And my old suggestion (in a more proper form):

Usher Ravenholme
Possibly the finest Imperial Poet ever. While his works are legendary (particularly the dark, Gothic Deepcrow), in life he was anything but. As a young boy he was always rather sickly, and was forced by his father to undergo particularly experimental medical treatments, including forced Vampirization. This last one failed to take as young Usher proved one of those few immune to Porphyric Hemophilia. Compounding things further was the sudden death of his mother due to the vampiric blood disease Porphyric Portus (or, Blood Cannibalism, where the blood in a body actually consumes itself. Medical Science/Magic has no answer currently as to where the devoured blood goes). As it tragically turns out, Ravenholme was a carrier for the disease, although midicine being what it was he never knew.

Ravenholme worked furiously at his craft, but found little financial success. His poetry was, as one editor put it, “nice, but a touch gloomy for our readership”. In his early years a dear friend, Henry Isinger, a prominent doctor in his day and a leading authority on Porphyric Hemophilia, died suddenly. It was concluded he died from Porphyric Portus, assumed to have contracted the disease in his lab. Ravenholme had lost another dear friend.

For a number of years, Ravenholme tried his hand at investigative journalism, always turning a keen eye to the underbelly of his hometown, Innmont. A part of the reason his journalism career failed was due to the fact that everyone knew Innmont was a perfectly normal, even exemplary town, and so his outlandish tales of bloodthirsty cults and cosmic monstrosities had little traction.

According to Ravenholme's writings he supposedly worked for an Imperial Bureau whose existence has been denied by authorities. In any case, Ravenholme claimed to have seen beings of such hideous visage and eldritch fashion that even the stars began to tremble as they turned their faintest attention to the mortal world. These “journal” entries were all confiscated shortly after his death. Ravenholme was sent to an asylum shortly before his twenty-seventh birthday.

He was released three years later and spent the rest of his life writing literal tomes of poems and novels. His life, as it turned out, would only last for another two years. His fiance, Alianore Fairweather, died suddenly (suspected Porphyric Portus), and it left the man distraught.

As it would most tragically turn out, Usher Ranvenholme was one of those few individuals that atheists point out while saying, “See? What sick God would ever do that?” Ravenholme was not only a carrier for Porphyric Portus, but was also a latent psionic. His repeated brushes with madness and despair had finally led to a condition known as “Mindbreak”, where (in short), he decided that the universe had to die. The hills which bordered Usher's home are much closer together than they were in his day, because his “Break” was so severe it collapsed spacetime around himself. His house was swallowed by the earth and no one lives near the site. People who do visit the area tend to disappear as they sometimes step through reality and fall into Usher's mind, dooming themselves to forever roam the halls of an infinite house of despair, desolation and death.

Usher Ravenholme in Legend
Again, no clue.

Tommy Oakenstride's bio sounds like a legend in itself. I don't think that his legends need repeating, unless we think of something cool to put in there.

Usher Ravenholme... :smalleek: Wow. I count no less than four campaign hooks ("someone got lost in Usher's mind, get him out", "party is contacted by third party, told to go to Innmont", "Deepcrow was inspired by a real monster, go kill it.", "party is contacted by Usher's former employer, embroiled in extradimensional horror story.") with many, many, MANY different permutations based on DM and PC group. And all of it has easily traceable roots to Poe and to Lovecraft. Kudos.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-22, 02:05 AM

I know that, but there's a difference between normal conflict and conflict-ball conflict. Conflict ball conflict is much more contrived and pointless. Something about Slate's monomania (as I read it) rubs me the wrong way. If there was a personal grudge between them (maybe Grit killed a wrongdoer who Slate promised to bring in unharmed, for example) I could understand it, but right now it's unclear as to why Slate just doesn't ride him out of his jurisdiction with a few warning shots (or "warning" shots as the case may be) and leave it at that. Maybe I'm missing something about this.

Don't think of Slate as a monomaniac. Think of him as Inspector Javert (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InspectorJavert), a persistent hound of justice, though perhaps an obsessed, antagonistic one. Still, a personal grudge might be good. How about we take a page from The Outlaw Josey Wales (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheOutlawJoseyWales) and say that Grit and Slate were on opposing sides of the civil war, but one took everything from the other? Or one betrayed the other.

First off, :smallamused: I see what you did there. Second off, Vampires are veeerrry much an aristocratic monster in the way that werewolves are veeerrry much a lower-class monster. If anything, Werewolf packs should rule Germany, and Vampire bloodlines should rule everything else, but those werewolf packs that are in the pseudo-Russia should be subjugated along with the humans.

True enough. Very well, I concede the point. I was drawing more off of culture (Werewolves West, Vampires East).

Tommy Oakenstride's bio sounds like a legend in itself. I don't think that his legends need repeating, unless we think of something cool to put in there.

Well, I kinda wrote it as a Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231615 ). :smallamused:

No! Bad Ninja! No puns for you! Also, what? I don't quite follow your meaning.

Usher Ravenholme... :smalleek: Wow. I count no less than four campaign hooks ("someone got lost in Usher's mind, get him out", "party is contacted by third party, told to go to Innmont", "Deepcrow was inspired by a real monster, go kill it.", "party is contacted by Usher's former employer, embroiled in extradimensional horror story.") with many, many, MANY different permutations based on DM and PC group. And all of it has easily traceable roots to Poe and to Lovecraft. Kudos.

Thank you. I rather like this character, and I hadn't even noticed the plot hooks for what they were.

And Ninjadeadbeard provides.

Would you mind if I use this in my sig?

Landis963

2012-02-22, 02:18 AM

Don't think of Slate as a monomaniac. Think of him as Inspector Javert (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InspectorJavert), a persistent hound of justice, though perhaps an obsessed, antagonistic one. Still, a personal grudge might be good. How about we take a page from The Outlaw Josey Wales (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheOutlawJoseyWales) and say that Grit and Slate were on opposing sides of the civil war, but one took everything from the other? Or one betrayed the other.

Fair enough. I can get behind those details as justification. Although IMO Javert was a monomaniac in his own right. And if Grit is as, well, gritty (see, I can make puns too. :smalltongue:) as the Man With No Name, I see no problem with letting him screw Slate over at a pivotal point.

Well, I kinda wrote it as a Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231615 ). :smallamused:

No! Bad Ninja! No puns for you! Also, what? I don't quite follow your meaning.

Basically, what I meant was that you've already written all the biggest legends that we could need about Tommy Oakenstride, and any others would involve specific events a la Johny Appleseed tricking a bunch of settlers into clearing land for orchards.

Thank you. I rather like this character, and I hadn't even noticed the plot hooks for what they were.

Would you mind if I use this in my sig?

You're welcome, and sure.

EDIT: Oh hey, I'm an Orc now. When did that happen?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-22, 02:24 AM

Fair enough. I can get behind those details as justification. Although IMO Javert was a monomaniac in his own right. And if Grit is as, well, gritty (see, I can make puns too. :smalltongue:) as the Man With No Name, I see no problem with letting him screw Slate over at a pivotal point.

Unless Slate pulls a Zenigata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koichi_Zenigata) and becomes a begrudging friend to his quarry (but continues chasing him due to the challenge).

Basically, what I meant was that you've already written all the biggest legends that we could need about Tommy Oakenstride, and any others would involve specific events a la Johny Appleseed tricking a bunch of settlers into clearing land for orchards.

Hmmm. I suppose the bio could use some pruning (http://instantrimshot.com/)! :smallbiggrin:

Landis963

2012-02-22, 02:48 AM

Unless Slate pulls a Zenigata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koichi_Zenigata) and becomes a begrudging friend to his quarry (but continues chasing him due to the challenge).

A consummate gambler, who has never cheated once, successfully defended his honor against numerous opponents after numerous poker games, and carved out a similarly lawful yet betting-happy town, where he presides as sheriff, becoming a Zenigata? I don't see that happening. Especially not if Grit's crime(s) burns strong enough in Slate's memory.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-22, 02:51 AM

A consummate gambler, who has never cheated once, successfully defended his honor against numerous opponents after numerous poker games, and carved out a similarly lawful yet betting-happy town, where he presides as sheriff, becoming a Zenigata? I don't see that happening. Especially not if Grit's crime(s) burns strong enough in Slate's memory.

Missed that. Withdrawn.

Saladman

2012-02-22, 03:54 AM

You should check out From the Sorceror's Skull (http://http://sorcerersskull.blogspot.com/p/weird-adventures-index.html). He's been working on broadly the same pitch for quite a while, with the difference that he's playing it more "straight," adapting the D&D rules to support a kind of gothic/supernatural/depression-era americana feel more than trying to make a fantasy America to fit in D&D as published. But there's still some great inspiration there.

Also, I'll second reading American Gods if you haven't already. So much there that's up your alley. And that leads me to a particular approach to mythological figures. Paul Bunyan, Johnny Appleseed and others might be small gods/eikones in their own right, forces imbued by common belief with a certain amount of power, perhaps simply to walk the earth fighting their own battles if not necessarily powering clerical spells. Uncle Sam and the Yankee Doodle Dandy are also good candidates for this kind of elevation. (Maybe the Dandy is fading away again by the time of the campaign though?)

If you did adopt that approach, it would follow that other nations and cultures would have their own champions, usually at some remove, but possibly dangerous if you trespassed on their turf. Also! Ghost shirts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_shirt) might have really worked, either from common belief or direct divine blessing. That potentially changes expansion quite a lot. If you don't want expansion to grind to a halt, one solution is to say your Empire was forced to come to a more just accommodation and carve out indigenous states from desirable land instead of reservations from the worst land. That gets you to patriotic Indian soldiers a few generations later right on schedule. Picture Indian Senators showing up to claim their place at the Capitol in full traditional regalia, with a few men welcoming them and others grinding their teeth in frustration at first.

Also, I'm puzzled by the need to combine Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett, or rename Tesla and others- no-one's alive to come after you. But that may be an aesthetic quibble more than anything meaningful. Anyway, that class of famous people, after death or even at the height of fame in life, are good candidates for a kind of very minor deification or informal civic sainthood through the "belief" of common knowledge. I'm thinking Crocket, Boone, Tesla, Thomas Edison, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin*, Teddy Roosevelt, maybe Henry Ford and others would get elevated in old D&D terms to immortals or 21st level characters. I'm thinking these civic saints/immortals should be in a different class and have different mechanics than the more elemental and spectral mythological figures.

*Franklin's an under-told legend in his own right. Not just a founding father who flew a kite in a storm, he was a genuine polymath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_franklin) famous as an inventor in his own day, for the lightning rod among many other things. I have a memory of a story that after the rebellion, on the way to France, the British wouldn't let him off his ship when it docked there, fearing he literally did have "lightning in a bottle" and was liable to unleash it on people if allowed in the country. But I can't find any citation now, so that may be apocryphal.

Also, something regional: the Oregon Country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Country) was at different times the subject of competing claims by Russia, Spain, France, Britain and the US. That wasn't finally settled in favor of the US until Britain bowed out in 1849 after a surge of late-comer settlers starting in the 1830's. Especially with that big inland gulf on your map, the resolution could have been delayed quite some time, with competing claims from trappers and fur traders, settlers and gold miners from different countries. For that matter, Russia might have held and reinforced Alaska and used it as a base for expansion or harassment- they only sold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_purchase) because they didn't think they could hold it in a war and decided they might as well get something for it while they could.

Landis963

2012-02-22, 10:22 AM

Also, I'll second reading American Gods if you haven't already. So much there that's up your alley.

Thirded.

Also, I'm puzzled by the need to combine Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett, or rename Tesla and others- no-one's alive to come after you. But that may be an aesthetic quibble more than anything meaningful. Anyway, that class of famous people, after death or even at the height of fame in life, are good candidates for a kind of very minor deification or informal civic sainthood through the "belief" of common knowledge. I'm thinking Crocket, Boone, Tesla, Thomas Edison, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin*, Teddy Roosevelt, maybe Henry Ford and others would get elevated in old D&D terms to immortals or 21st level characters. I'm thinking these civic saints/immortals should be in a different class and have different mechanics than the more elemental and spectral mythological figures.

The point is that this is a different world entirely, not alt-universe Earth with D&D rules. Hence, figures are not copied wholesale, they are copied, made larger than life, and given actual magic powers. Exhibits A-C: Dr. Steam's underwater city, Tommy Oakenstride's tree transfer, Iron John's self-destruction against the automatic rail-layer. Compare with Tesla's exploits, Johnny Appleseed's exploits, and the tale of John Henry. Also, there are some steampunk elements that did not appear in real life. (For example, Iron John is a warforged, not a dark-skinned human)

*Franklin's an under-told legend in his own right. Not just a founding father who flew a kite in a storm, he was a genuine polymath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_franklin) famous as an inventor in his own day, for the lightning rod among many other things. I have a memory of a story that after the rebellion, on the way to France, the British wouldn't let him off his ship when it docked there, fearing he literally did have "lightning in a bottle" and was liable to unleash it on people if allowed in the country. But I can't find any citation now, so that may be apocryphal.

Oh, definitely. However, this is based on the early 1820s, so the Franklin-analogue would be long dead. I see no problem with him maybe inspiring Dr. Steam, though, if you're listening Zap.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-22, 01:36 PM

Wow! Lots to respond to! Let's see if I can get to everything on my lunch break.

Ninja: While it would certainly be possible to go into detail about each of the overseas regions, I think I'd rather keep them vague for now. I want to flesh out the New World as much as possible, and if we find that more diversity is needed, we can add it afterword. For now, I think it would be best to say that "somewhere across the sea" a lot of people are secretly ruled by an expansive vampire society. Maybe some historical Ben Franklin equivalent masqueraded as a foreign diplomat so he could be a Lightning-shooting Vampire slayer?

I LOVE those heroes! I had forgotten all about Usher. I'm going to copy/paste those into their own posts, for each of linking in the OP. I need to do that for Dr. Steam, too.

Landis: First off, thanks for being such an advocate for the setting! Even though you've only just recently joined the conversation, I feel like you have a solid grasp on what I'm trying to accomplish.

Second, I agree with you about the "conflict ball" nature of the Grit-Slate relationship. When I came up with it, I had these two separate characters in my head, and one of them could have benefited from a mortal enemy. I smashed them together, and that was that. That said, I think it can be salvaged with minimal work. I'll think on it, and probably be able to post something by tonight.

Saladman: That link didn't work for me. However, just from your description I can definitely see how it would be a helpful resource. That said, I'm really trying to stick to a Steampunk 1860s feel, so I'd like to discourage later material from the RL timeline.

I guess you're right about American Gods. Someone recommended that I read it in college, but I never got around to it. I'll put it on the list!

That Ghost Shirt idea is completely awesome. The easiest way to balance it is to say that it's an extremely rare magic item, but I like where you're going otherwise. I picture a dozen or so major Native groupings. Some of them are Imperial Allies (showing up to the senate in full regalia...with mixed reception, just like you said), and some are not only opposed to the Empire, but are fighting with them on more-or-less even footing. Not only that, but there are plenty of those Native groups that are in the middle ground, not taking a public stance.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-22, 01:56 PM

Thomas “Tommy” Oakenstride
Tommy Oakenstride was born sometime after the Founding, though no-one knows quite when, and some even say he's as old as the world itself. In truth, know one knows, 'cept Tommy. Perpetually youthful, Tommy was said to have grown up on the eastern edge of the Middle Plains. As a child he played in the forests by his home, and in time he knew the secret names of every tree, bird, squirrel and grass blade.

Then, while out running errands as a young man, he saw the plains for the first time, he very rarely leaving the forests near his home for any reason. As he saw that complete flatness, Tom was compelled by a voice inside him. Gathering up as many acorns from every tree in the forest as he could carry, Tommy went wandering off into the plains. For years he wandered westward, walking paths untrod even by the Natives of his day. But everywhere he went, his trees would not grow. He would plant them, whisper their names to them, but the trees would not grow. The earth there wasn't meant for trees.

Many years passed like this, until he finally reached the Westron Range. But when he started to plant trees, the Mountain Natives demanded he leave. It did not matter to them that he came to grow trees and make the earth bloom. He was an Imperial, an outsider. So, Tom left again, this time going south by Coterois.

In the southern marshland his trees were too heavy for the soil. They'd sink down to the bottom just as soon as they'd rise. It got so bad that at one time he was furiously putting down whole forests at once, and then watched them immediately disappear into the bayou. In an fury he lashed out at his sinking trees, demanding that they stay up, but to no avail. In fact, his thrashing is said to have broken several trees, whose bark started swimming away, turning into the first alligators.

Tom traveled deep into the deserts of Barado, but there his trees had no water. He backtracked north and around the mountains, but found that the snow was becoming too heavy. His trees would break from the weight of the snow as soon as they shot up.

Finally, nearing the end of his days, Tom went around the mountains and found the western coast. And there he found a land rich in soil and people. He dwelt there among the fishermen and grew vast forests for them to enjoy. His trees spread all up and down the coast, and sometimes he spent so long caring for his trees that they'd grow near to the clouds. Tom would have been happy to set down roots for what time he had left and simply enjoy the company of his trees.

But then word came from the East. The Second Revolution had hit the Empire hard. Though the Empire successfully defended their sovereignty, the retreating Old Worlders cast a terrible curse that killed all the trees and forests and animals east of the mountains.

Old Tom wouldn't stand for that. He sent the word to every tree and bush and sapling he had ever laid in the ground. The Last March of the Forests began. Led by Tom and bolstered by the sheer might of his love for growing things, the forest followed their friend across the mountains and plains. With every bit of effort he could muster, Tom brought the Empire back to life with mighty words and powerful song. In the end, the New World blossomed once more with trees and growing things, but Old Tom was spent.

The trees, bursting with lamentation and sorrow, lifted their caretaker on high and carried him to the highest peak of the Westron Range, where it is said that he was buried as a Native Chieftain, the only Imperial ever granted the honor. His trees live on, and some summer nights there are stories of an old man who wanders the old forests and helps guide travelers to safety.

Tom Oakenstride in Legend:
I have no idea. We probably need to write up some new tracks for this guy.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-22, 01:57 PM

Usher Ravenholme
Possibly the finest Imperial Poet ever. While his works are legendary (particularly the dark, Gothic Deepcrow), in life he was anything but. As a young boy he was always rather sickly, and was forced by his father to undergo particularly experimental medical treatments, including forced Vampirization. This last one failed to take as young Usher proved one of those few immune to Porphyric Hemophilia. Compounding things further was the sudden death of his mother due to the vampiric blood disease Porphyric Portus (or, Blood Cannibalism, where the blood in a body actually consumes itself. Medical Science/Magic has no answer currently as to where the devoured blood goes). As it tragically turns out, Ravenholme was a carrier for the disease, although midicine being what it was he never knew.

Ravenholme worked furiously at his craft, but found little financial success. His poetry was, as one editor put it, “nice, but a touch gloomy for our readership”. In his early years a dear friend, Henry Isinger, a prominent doctor in his day and a leading authority on Porphyric Hemophilia, died suddenly. It was concluded he died from Porphyric Portus, assumed to have contracted the disease in his lab. Ravenholme had lost another dear friend.

For a number of years, Ravenholme tried his hand at investigative journalism, always turning a keen eye to the underbelly of his hometown, Innmont. A part of the reason his journalism career failed was due to the fact that everyone knew Innmont was a perfectly normal, even exemplary town, and so his outlandish tales of bloodthirsty cults and cosmic monstrosities had little traction.

According to Ravenholme's writings he supposedly worked for an Imperial Bureau whose existence has been denied by authorities. In any case, Ravenholme claimed to have seen beings of such hideous visage and eldritch fashion that even the stars began to tremble as they turned their faintest attention to the mortal world. These “journal” entries were all confiscated shortly after his death. Ravenholme was sent to an asylum shortly before his twenty-seventh birthday.

He was released three years later and spent the rest of his life writing literal tomes of poems and novels. His life, as it turned out, would only last for another two years. His fiance, Alianore Fairweather, died suddenly (suspected Porphyric Portus), and it left the man distraught.

As it would most tragically turn out, Usher Ranvenholme was one of those few individuals that atheists point out while saying, “See? What sick God would ever do that?” Ravenholme was not only a carrier for Porphyric Portus, but was also a latent psionic. His repeated brushes with madness and despair had finally led to a condition known as “Mindbreak”, where (in short), he decided that the universe had to die. The hills which bordered Usher's home are much closer together than they were in his day, because his “Break” was so severe it collapsed spacetime around himself. His house was swallowed by the earth and no one lives near the site. People who do visit the area tend to disappear as they sometimes step through reality and fall into Usher's mind, dooming themselves to forever roam the halls of an infinite house of despair, desolation and death.

Usher Ravenholme in Legend
Again, no clue.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-22, 02:00 PM

Sergei Tokarev, or "Dr. Steam," is the most innovative mind in the Empire. Churning out hundreds of inventions each year, Dr. Steam is responsible for nearly every technological advancement the Empire has made in the past decade, including harnessing the powers of steam to the benefit of each of the Empire's citizens. Dr. Steam works closely with the Imperial Government, developing everything from more sophisticated labor devices to--it is rumored--more powerful weapons for the Imperial Military.

His very first innovation seems simple by the standards of the good folk of the Empire. He theorized that--merely by heating air--he could make the heaviest of contraptions float into the sky. Thanks to this initial vision, Tokarev revolutionized the way the Empire transports goods, travels for leisure, and fights its wars.

Naturally, such a development as lighter than air technology earned the attention of the Empire, and he has been on a substantial government stipend in all the years since. Though he has known countless failures, he has been the guiding force in the quest for mechanical perfection.

In the years following his rise to prominence, thousands of intrepid inventors have expanded on his idea, but Tokarev has remained at the forefront of innovation. Among his inventions include the steam-powered rifle (its proponents insist that it will outrange any gunpowder rifle for the next 60 years), a means of increasing the labor capacity of Ironmen tenfold (Tokarev--it should be said--was the very to espouse the idea of machines controlling machines), and even a means by which one might survive beneath the very ocean itself.

This last invention began with a simple apparatus that would allow a human to walk along the floor of rivers, observing wildlife and hazards present along the floor of countless riverways. It ended--as all good Citizens know--in the great, underwater paradise of Aqualuxia in the city of Coterois. Granted, many of the city's inhabitants know it as the Sunken Quarter (a hive of scum and dark rituals if ever there was one), but the genius of his vision lives on.

Today, Sergei continues to churn out invention upon invention for the good of all Imperials and the Empire itself. As he has no taste for galas and banquets, he is not often found outside his complex of labs and storage facilities, a tall building located in the heart of New _____, the Empire's largest city.

JackRackham

2012-02-22, 07:06 PM

Okay, so you mentioned wanting an Edgar Allen Poe tribute (I agree, a necessity)? Well, here's the thing, Poe has nothing combat-related in his mythos or in fact. Doc Holliday, however, was a pretty morbid dude, very (effete?), eccentric, and intelligent/verbose in additon to being DEADLY with a pistol. I say, combine the two. You've got a drunken (both), morbid (both), writer (Poe), who's probably married to a younger cousin (Poe, 14-ish), but gambles (Holliday) and is just deadly with a pistol (Holliday). Build ideas to follow...

EDIT: First of all, what I have in mind for Dr. Allen Poe would break the rules for PC character creation, but that shouldn't be a problem since he's a unique, legendary NPC and Legend specifically says the DMs can break the rules in creating monsters and NPCs.

Obviously, Poe would be a writer by trade - a crazy good one. He would be dressed in obviously lavish, expensive, but ill-kept clothes in darker colors. He'd be found at the back of a dingy bar, drunkenly cheating at a card game. He's from the equivalent of the East Coast, probably South and may have migrated West at one point.

If he's famous, any tall tales about him would revolve around him brutally gunning down rooms full of men, half-drunk. He would not be the initiator. Rather, he would owe them money (unsuccessful writing venture, or he said it was a writing venture, but drank away his advance and never submitted anything), or they would catch him cheating at cards, or they would catch their wife/girlfriend/sister/mother/daughter sleeping with him or one of their 'working girls' giving him a freebie. If he's not famous, he's likely to drunkenly regale people with these stories - but only drunkenly! He's probably quiet, brooding when sober.

His writing should obviously be like Poe's. If he's famous, there should be all kinds of superstitions about them and how he comes up with them (dark arts, consorts with devils, haunted by the men he's killed, blah, blah, blah). If he's not famous, or not famous for his writing, his work should just be creepy as hell. You can even just use some of Poe's actual, lesser known poems and short stories if this comes up in-game.

Now, I suggest giving him Esoterica Radica, Rain of Arrows, Better Quick Than Dead, and Arcane Secrets. His Iconic Feat will be "On a Pale Horse." The remaining feats would be To Iron Married, To Steel Beholden, Batter Down, Pistolero, Terror, and Dread Secret.

Likely Legendary Abilities: Suave, Awesome Presence, Plot Armor, Old Hero.

This character would have a maxxed bluff and intimidate and would have shunned diplomacy completely. He should be high Dex, Int, and Cha and his other 3 stats should be very low (Poe and Holliday were very sickly, and physically weak, Holliday was entirely, recklessly impulsive).

His Arcane Secrets and his dread secret and terror abilities (from feats) should be fluffed as a supernatural ability to weave magical, horrible, dark tales that grip his target and physically effect them...while he loosens his pistol in its holster.

Stories aside, his pistol hand is also one of the quickest and deadliest around.

Also, I'm puzzled by the need to combine Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett, or rename Tesla and others- no-one's alive to come after you.

You'd combine them because having a bunch of epic badass wilderness guys running around would get old. So, you'd pick, right? But, why pick, when you can take the best parts of each of them, combine them, and make someone even more epic, more larger-than-life?

And then, the renaming is because using actual historical figures actually ruins verisimilitude more often than not. For instance, if a Jim Bowie character scolds someone for holding slaves, I'd be upset, because the dude had a bunch of slaves. But if a character representing the archetype did so, it'd be fine, because the archetype is about glorifying the little guy and the fact that some of these guys were slave holders (read:all, at one point or another) is not central to the archetype.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-22, 07:54 PM

JackRackham

2012-02-22, 08:06 PM

I actually like the idea Ninjadeadbeard has cooked up. He's essentially a ghost the haunts an entire region, weaving horrifying webs of illusion and madness simply by the nature of his sad life.

Ninja, I have two things to say to you. First: I think Ravenholme would best be represented as a whole mess of haunts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/haunts), a la Pathfinder. Second: how did you come up with a name like "Ninjadeadbeard"?

I await with bated breath!

Damn, I didn't catch that.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-22, 08:15 PM

Ninja, I have two things to say to you. First: I think Ravenholme would best be represented as a whole mess of haunts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/haunts), a la Pathfinder. Second: how did you come up with a name like "Ninjadeadbeard"?

First: Yeah, I can see that. I also think any GM would need to use every bit of their dark, twisted imagination to do Usher's House (http://www.poemuseum.org/works-fall.php) properly, and come up with Poe-themed haunts.

See what I did there? :smallcool:

Second: I use that name cuz of an experience I had. I was in a writing-rut and asked a friend to give me an idea, off the top of his head. He, being a smartass, told me to write about the adventures of a Pirate Ninja Zombie. So I did. And darn it if I didn't have fun cramming every cliched nonsensical reference into that story. The character's name (in true Pirate fashion) was Ryuzaki Deadbeard, both a pirate and Ninja. And a zombie, so instead of a Blackbeard or a Bluebeard or a Redbeard, he had a Deadbeard.:xykon:

It's as good a name as any.

Anyway, I wrote up two more characters, one of which you came up with waaaaaay back on, like, the first or second page.

Colonel "Bear" Redfield and his Bear Cavalry

Robert “The Bear” Redfield is the youngest Senator in the Empire. Though he is legally too young to hold the office, he was elected by popular acclaim in Deine, his state. It was only after he took office that his legend became well known to the public at large.

Redfield was born a sickly youth. He suffered terribly from colds and asthma. Well, to Redfield that would not do, so he took to a brutal regimen of physical and mental exercises. By the time he was fifteen, Redfield was running fifty miles every morning, downing his weight in raw eggs and steaks to keep up his pace, and already sporting his trademark walrus-mustache. Coming from money, he was able to pursue his education with little to get in his way.

After receiving his degree to practice law (age 18, naturally), Redfield decided to win a bet with himself. He gave away all his money and possessions and set out to earn it all back. He's since done this six times, each time pursuing a different tact to earn his living. He made millions at cattle herding, lawyering, teaching, fur trapping, and even once by writing his autobiography at age 23. His exuberance for life made him a star in his home state and they elected him to be their Senator by acclaim.

Most other Senators hadn't heard of Redfield before, and so were somewhat surprised to find him accompanied through the Capitol's streets by a huge Dire-Abominable-Snow-Bear (the species was later re-named the Red-Bear). Redfield had tamed the bear (named Theodore, thus the namesake for Teddy Bears) after he hunted it for three days. Well, he tamed it after hunting, and then wrestling the bear. Theodore is consider exceptionally well-trained, and often gives rides to little children. Redfield himself never rides Theodore, preferring to carry his Familiar on his back while going to and from Senate meetings. However, hearing people talk of Bear-riding has given Robert Redfield an idea. He hopes to one day serve in the next major war, hopefully at the head of his newly gathered volunteer corps of Bear Cavalry.

Redfield still leads his senate staff on fifty mile hikes every day, and tends to have to replace those who get lost or collapse on the way. He's also well known for being a leading member of both the Nostalgia Gardens and Academy of Steam. Despite attempts to make him pick one over the other, Redfield has continued going to both groups' meetings, sometimes having to crash through the barricades raised against him. He hasn't gotten the hint yet, and no one is willing to be the one to tell him he's out.

That being said, Redfield is a bit book-dumb and naïve. Though educated, he seems to blatantly disregard anything and everything that disagrees with his assumption that all people are generally good and decent at heart. When he met with leaders of both Ironmen and Allied Natives, Redfield was genuinely surprised that some other Senators made a big stink of the whole thing. Redfield has literally no concept of race as something that separates one man from another. He is, as Herbert Boatswain (see below) once said, “A Bear in every respect. Gentle of heart, nonjudgmental of mind, and a brick s***house in size”.

Mattimeo Sasquatcha Potter

Mattimeo Potter was a career soldier in the years leading up to the Imperial Civil War (also known as The Iron War). Despite this, he was also a highly unconventional soldier. He always appeared to slouch, never tried combing his wild red hair or beard into something resembling respectable, and tended to view war as a harsh and terrible monstrous crime against decency, rather than as a large scale game of honor as his colleagues did. He was also something of a drunk and a cigar fiend. Potter's superiors disliked him for these qualities and others, but usually couldn't move against him because of his record. Graduating last in his military class, Potter had risen from the lowest order of the peasantry to command rank and soon found himself a general on the frontiers.

While Potter was of the opinion that the Natives he governed over were admirable sorts, when orders came down to march against those who partook in violent rebellion, he did not hesitate. The Natives granted him a second name during his governorship. They called him “Fire Dancer” as they recognized his flame elemental heritage, and his devastating campaigns against the insurgent Natives.

When the Imperial Civil War broke out, Potter immediately took up arms against the rebellion. He didn't particularly think of the Ironmen's freedom, but he did hold a special hatred in his heart for any who chose to begin a war. “They were the ones who began this terrible conflict,” he wrote, “But I shall end it. And I shall make them howl.”

Early in the war, Potter's particular sort of combat was ill-looked upon by the civilian populace. This was, in no small part due to his policy of killing every single living being anywhere that supported the rebels in any way. He was quietly taken out of command and retired for the Battle of Hirsch, where though he successfully defeated the Rebels, he also practically doubled the whole war's bodycount up to that point. But only a few scant years later, when the Empire was on the brink of total dissolution, Potter was given complete control as Imperator-General. He stood literally a hands-breath away from the throne.

The rest of the war is known only as Potter's March, where the whole of the rebellious states were shown exactly what Potter thought of as war. He made it absolutely clear that he detested conflict, which was why he was going to make sure humanity remembered the price of war from his example. The destruction was so complete that the rebellious states surrendered unconditionally. Historians are still trying to tally up the total damages.

Interestingly, Potter immediately resigned his position as soon as the war ended. He deeply respected then Emperor Copperton, and felt he could pull the nation together again. Thus did Mattimeo Potter step out of history.

In Legend
Potter is a Full Buy-in Barbarian/Path of the Ancestors/Utter Brute/Fire Elemental/Fire Elementalist (not a typo)

Landis963

2012-02-22, 08:16 PM

Landis: First off, thanks for being such an advocate for the setting! Even though you've only just recently joined the conversation, I feel like you have a solid grasp on what I'm trying to accomplish.

:smallcool: thankya thankya.

Second, I agree with you about the "conflict ball" nature of the Grit-Slate relationship. When I came up with it, I had these two separate characters in my head, and one of them could have benefited from a mortal enemy. I smashed them together, and that was that. That said, I think it can be salvaged with minimal work. I'll think on it, and probably be able to post something by tonight.

To be fair, Ninja and I talked it over while you were out, and we both think that if there's a detail in there such as "Grit hung Slate out to dry in hostile territory" it could work as-is. There just needs to be a reason for Slate to single out Grit - it doesn't even need to be apparent to your average PC group, not at first.

Sergei Tokarev, or "Dr. Steam," is the most innovative mind in the Empire. Churning out hundreds of inventions each year, Dr. Steam is responsible for nearly every technological advancement the Empire has made in the past decade, including harnessing the powers of steam to the benefit of each of the Empire's citizens. Dr. Steam works closely with the Imperial Government, developing everything from more sophisticated labor devices to--it is rumored--more powerful weapons for the Imperial Military.

Is this going to be expanded any? I mean, there was some talk a few pages back about his involvement in the creation of Coterois, but not much else besides that.

The Durvin

2012-02-22, 08:50 PM

What was that about Poe not having anything combat related? He may not have written large-scale battle scenes, but I refer you to "The Man Who Was Used Up", one of the earliest depictions of a cyborg; it's a surprisingly light-hearted story about a general who's had so many war-injuries he's made entirely of mechanical prostheses. And you know, on the same subject, you know who else was an American author writing not long after on the subject of the supernatural? Lovecraft. Just sayin'.

Another one you might want to look at is Mark Twain's "The Mysterious Stranger"; it's lesser known because it's all about the Devil, maybe. By that token, your poet might have gotten his skills selling his soul at the cross-roads, you know?

And then there's a real person, way back in history, whose story is so crazy I wouldn't believe it except I've heard it from multiple stories: Windwagon Smith. This crazy mofo decided he was going to build a giant vessel based on a schooner, but with wheels, so as to sail across the grasslands to the Frontiers; much to everyone's surprise, the damn thing worked perfectly, until he discovered--during the public debut, with local dignitaries on board--that the brakes weren't strong enough. There were injuries, but no deaths; he lost all his funding, and wound up--seriously now--fixing the windwagon up and sailing into the sunset alone. Supposedly, later frontiersmen heard stories from Indians about having seen him, but nobody knows what happened to him.

And more...Emperor Norton, maybe? I could go on, but I won't.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-22, 09:46 PM

Colonel "Bear" Redfield and his Bear Cavalry

Robert “The Bear” Redfield is the youngest Senator in the Empire. Though he is legally too young to hold the office, he was elected by popular acclaim in Deine, his state. It was only after he took office that his legend became well known to the public at large.

Redfield was born a sickly youth. He suffered terribly from colds and asthma. Well, to Redfield that would not do, so he took to a brutal regimen of physical and mental exercises. By the time he was fifteen, Redfield was running fifty miles every morning, downing his weight in raw eggs and steaks to keep up his pace, and already sporting his trademark walrus-mustache. Coming from money, he was able to pursue his education with little to get in his way.

After receiving his degree to practice law (age 18, naturally), Redfield decided to win a bet with himself. He gave away all his money and possessions and set out to earn it all back. He's since done this six times, each time pursuing a different tact to earn his living. He made millions at cattle herding, lawyering, teaching, fur trapping, and even once by writing his autobiography at age 23. His exuberance for life made him a star in his home state and they elected him to be their Senator by acclaim.

Most other Senators hadn't heard of Redfield before, and so were somewhat surprised to find him accompanied through the Capitol's streets by a huge Dire-Abominable-Snow-Bear (the species was later re-named the Red-Bear). Redfield had tamed the bear (named Theodore, thus the namesake for Teddy Bears) after he hunted it for three days. Well, he tamed it after hunting, and then wrestling the bear. Theodore is consider exceptionally well-trained, and often gives rides to little children. Redfield himself never rides Theodore, preferring to carry his Familiar on his back while going to and from Senate meetings. However, hearing people talk of Bear-riding has given Robert Redfield an idea. He hopes to one day serve in the next major war, hopefully at the head of his newly gathered volunteer corps of Bear Cavalry.

Redfield still leads his senate staff on fifty mile hikes every day, and tends to have to replace those who get lost or collapse on the way. He's also well known for being a leading member of both the Nostalgia Gardens and Academy of Steam. Despite attempts to make him pick one over the other, Redfield has continued going to both groups' meetings, sometimes having to crash through the barricades raised against him. He hasn't gotten the hint yet, and no one is willing to be the one to tell him he's out.

That being said, Redfield is a bit book-dumb and naïve. Though educated, he seems to blatantly disregard anything and everything that disagrees with his assumption that all people are generally good and decent at heart. When he met with leaders of both Ironmen and Allied Natives, Redfield was genuinely surprised that some other Senators made a big stink of the whole thing. Redfield has literally no concept of race as something that separates one man from another. He is, as Herbert Boatswain (see below) once said, “A Bear in every respect. Gentle of heart, nonjudgmental of mind, and a brick s***house in size”.

Just saying, Teddy's my favorite prez.

[quote]Mattimeo Sasquatcha Potter

Mattimeo Potter was a career soldier in the years leading up to the Imperial Civil War (also known as The Iron War). Despite this, he was also a highly unconventional soldier. He always appeared to slouch, never tried combing his wild red hair or beard into something resembling respectable, and tended to view war as a harsh and terrible monstrous crime against decency, rather than as a large scale game of honor as his colleagues did. He was also something of a drunk and a cigar fiend. Potter's superiors disliked him for these qualities and others, but usually couldn't move against him because of his record. Graduating last in his military class, Potter had risen from the lowest order of the peasantry to command rank and soon found himself a general on the frontiers.

While Potter was of the opinion that the Natives he governed over were admirable sorts, when orders came down to march against those who partook in violent rebellion, he did not hesitate. The Natives granted him a second name during his governorship. They called him “Fire Dancer” as they recognized his flame elemental heritage, and his devastating campaigns against the insurgent Natives.

When the Imperial Civil War broke out, Potter immediately took up arms against the rebellion. He didn't particularly think of the Ironmen's freedom, but he did hold a special hatred in his heart for any who chose to begin a war. “They were the ones who began this terrible conflict,” he wrote, “But I shall end it. And I shall make them howl.”

Early in the war, Potter's particular sort of combat was ill-looked upon by the civilian populace. This was, in no small part due to his policy of killing every single living being anywhere that supported the rebels in any way. He was quietly taken out of command and retired for the Battle of Hirsch, where though he successfully defeated the Rebels, he also practically doubled the whole war's bodycount up to that point. But only a few scant years later, when the Empire was on the brink of total dissolution, Potter was given complete control as Imperator-General. He stood literally a hands-breath away from the throne.

The rest of the war is known only as Potter's March, where the whole of the rebellious states were shown exactly what Potter thought of as war. He made it absolutely clear that he detested conflict, which was why he was going to make sure humanity remembered the price of war from his example. The destruction was so complete that the rebellious states surrendered unconditionally. Historians are still trying to tally up the total damages.

Interestingly, Potter immediately resigned his position as soon as the war ended. He deeply respected then Emperor Copperton, and felt he could pull the nation together again. Thus did Mattimeo Potter step out of history.

In Legend
Potter is a Full Buy-in Barbarian/Path of the Ancestors/Utter Brute/Fire Elemental/Fire Elementalist (not a typo)

Burnside meets Grant? I approve.

I updated the post Sergei Tokarev, fleshing out his story a little more. I'll update even more when I get more ideas.

Landis963

2012-02-22, 10:01 PM

...:smallbiggrin: I really want to see this "machines controlling machines" idea in action. Would this be closer to the practical idea of Warforged interfacing somehow with a combine harvester, or the cool idea of a mech suit for mechs?

EDIT: and subscribed, now that I'm thinking about it.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-22, 10:26 PM

Just saying, Teddy's my favorite prez.

I like him too, but the time period we're in is too early for his presidency. So I wrote him as he was before the Spanish-American War.

Burnside meets Grant? I approve.

Actually Grant meets Sherman. Well, more like Sherman meets Pyromancer Sherman meets Grant. Burnside is a tad too incompetent to combine with either of those men with good results.

JackRackham

2012-02-22, 11:25 PM

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-23, 08:54 AM

Landis963

2012-02-23, 02:31 PM

Probably both, actually.

Now I have this deliciously insane idea of a mech suit, for a mech suit, piloted by a warforged.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-23, 10:44 PM

Now I have this deliciously insane idea of a mech suit, for a mech suit, piloted by a warforged.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/thread.jpg

You have brought this on yourself.

So, yeah, what else did we need to build in this world? I feel we need some direction, Zap.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-24, 12:09 AM

So, yeah, what else did we need to build in this world? I feel we need some direction, Zap.

I think we're starting to get to a good place in terms of mythic heroes. At this point, we need to start thinking about cities, what each is known for, and what organizations are there. Here's what we've got so far:

The Capital: Did we ever name this?
The largest city in the New World (New York): We never named this.
(Chicago): On the Northern coast of the gulf. Needs a name.
Coterois:
The Sunken Quarter
Tree Island: Basically Tombstone, but it's near the Rockies instead of in Arizona.
New Borado Capital: There are plenty of other cities in the nation, but the let's start with the capital. It's a place of Ancient God Magic.
Northwestern Cities: Alaska-ish places. Longhouses, etc.

Have at em!

Landis963

2012-02-24, 02:24 AM

:smalleek: formatting nightmare ahoy.

I think we're starting to get to a good place in terms of mythic heroes. At this point, we need to start thinking about cities, what each is known for, and what organizations are there. Here's what we've got so far:

The Capital: Did we ever name this?

Well, Washington is named after the most saintified Founding Father (a saintifying name if there ever was one), but I think we should look somewhere else rather than invent more heroes, especially since we've apparently got enough for now. However, Philadelphia was in the running to become the US capital, but it's position was moved closer to the south to appease the senators from the southern states over the slavery issue. The city's name is a mashup of two greek words, specifically philos and adelphos, "love" and "brother", respectively. The Latin words that fit those two the best are amitica or amicus and Frater, respectively. Therefore, we should call the Capitol Frateramica or Fratamica. "Frater" for short.

The largest city in the New World (New York): We never named this.

First, this should be the home of Dr. Steam and the Academy you mentioned a few pages back. Maybe we can set up a corporate rival to the University, echoing Tesla and Edison's rivalry. As for the name... I got nothing so far. Frankly, I say merge this city and the Chicago-analogue, since there's only a few places we can put it without stepping on any other cities' toes.

(Chicago): On the Northern coast of the gulf. Needs a name.

There was an interesting idea back a few topics about the original settlers fleeing personal prosecution from Draculian noble families rather than spiritual prosecution. What if, say, a group of werewolves fleeing some vampiric regime's prosecution landed there and founded a colony. Assuming that the Empire proper is at the southern end of the Gulf, and these settlers landed smack dab in the middle of "Algonquian" territory, then there could be friction between them. Also, I'm picturing a sort of animal magnetism between the wolves of the area and the settlers, enough that the natives might call it "wolf-town" because of all the packs congregating there. Research shows me that "Wolf" in Algonquin is mahigan, which works nicely, I think. Thus, I christen the Chicago analogue Mahigan City. Also, in a nod to the legends surrounding Chicago's naming, locals should call it the Big Onion due to the preponderance of similar plants growing around there.

Coterois:
The Sunken Quarter

I actually had an idea about this place, especially with the Chicago analogue being (originally) a werewolf town. What if a vampiric puppet government set up shop here in the very beginning, before the Sunken Quarter was built? They would have been ousted during this world's analogue to the American Revolution, but their logos, policies, and slogans might have stuck around for quite some time afterward, enough that a group of settlers with long memories and deep-seated fears would be scared off by the resemblance.

Tree Island: Basically Tombstone, but it's near the Rockies instead of in Arizona.

This should be Slate's domain, the law-abiding town where the betting is good, as well as the drinks. We've even got something to crib off of for Grit's climactic betrayal: the real life Gunfight at the O.K. Corral.

New Borado Capital: There are plenty of other cities in the nation, but the let's start with the capital. It's a place of Ancient God Magic.

I think we should take a page out of WoW's draenei for this one: have the main capital building be one giant piece of Ancient-God tech, possibly a starship (as it's the only thing that could feasibly be mistaken for a building). This is the nation where they use the technology and don't just guard it, right?

Northwestern Cities: Alaska-ish places. Longhouses, etc.

I'll leave these to someone more talented than I.

Have at em!

Hope the things I did put down work!

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-24, 03:19 AM

Well, Washington is named after the most saintified Founding Father (a saintifying name if there ever was one), but I think we should look somewhere else rather than invent more heroes, especially since we've apparently got enough for now. However, Philadelphia was in the running to become the US capital, but it's position was moved closer to the south to appease the senators from the southern states over the slavery issue. The city's name is a mashup of two greek words, specifically philos and adelphos, "love" and "brother", respectively. The Latin words that fit those two the best are amitica or amicus and Frater, respectively. Therefore, we should call the Capitol Frateramica or Fratamica. "Frater" for short.

Or we could shorten it to just Amicus since it would be easier to say. Or we could use the latin word Paludem or something similar. It basically means “Marsh”, which is a god descriptor for Washington. The original land Washington was built on was worthless marsh no other state wanted too badly. And this capitol is (unless Zap's reconsidered) basically on a tiny isthmus, prime marsh territory if I ever saw it.

First, this should be the home of Dr. Steam and the Academy you mentioned a few pages back. Maybe we can set up a corporate rival to the University, echoing Tesla and Edison's rivalry.

I second the Edison-analogue. Back when I did a short story about an alternate America undergoing Magic Prohibition (partly the reason I was so interested in this project) I had Tesla at the head of a Super-Corporation (due to his beating out Edison with Super-SCIENCE), and Edison became his (traitorous) lackey. Just an idea to float around. It could also be good conflict to stick with competing companies.

There was an interesting idea back a few topics about the original settlers fleeing personal prosecution from Draculian noble families rather than spiritual prosecution. What if, say, a group of werewolves fleeing some vampiric regime's prosecution landed there and founded a colony. Assuming that the Empire proper is at the southern end of the Gulf, and these settlers landed smack dab in the middle of "Algonquian" territory, then there could be friction between them. Also, I'm picturing a sort of animal magnetism between the wolves of the area and the settlers, enough that the natives might call it "wolf-town" because of all the packs congregating there. Research shows me that "Wolf" in Algonquin is mahigan, which works nicely, I think. Thus, I christen the Chicago analogue Mahigan City. Also, in a nod to the legends surrounding Chicago's naming, locals should call it the Big Onion due to the preponderance of similar plants growing around there.

...I actually had an idea about this place, especially with the Chicago analogue being (originally) a werewolf town. What if a vampiric puppet government set up shop here in the very beginning, before the Sunken Quarter was built? They would have been ousted during this world's analogue to the American Revolution, but their logos, policies, and slogans might have stuck around for quite some time afterward, enough that a group of settlers with long memories and deep-seated fears would be scared off by the resemblance.

That's hilarious. Back a few pages I also suggested going with an Onion theme. It's as they say, “Great Minds look at the same Wiki pages.” :smallamused: I also suggested Railtown, Bigtime, Venteux (windy), and Zweibel (onion, as in The Big Onion). Or, Neugotham. As in, New Gotham. I guess The Dark Knight was filmed there a lot, so they use that as a nickname.

Still, Mahigan is an awesome name. Let's do that one. Merging it with NY might be problematic, though doable.

I also put down quite a bit about Coterois a few pages ago, but it might have been lost in the shuffle. I'll repeat what I had here:
A portion of Coterois sank into the sea some time ago, due in part to Pseudo-Voodoo (a favor from the Other Side gone wrong/horribly right),and also in part due to the machinations of a cult following a Cosmic Abomination (of the Lovecraftian variety). This cult are monstrous fish-people who still live in the ruined Sunken Quarter, giving black sacrifices to their Unspeakable Gods.

The Natives hate these guys. Besides being under the "Biggest Lake Monster of All" (ie; the Ocean), these guys probably dabble in all sorts of forbidden magic and have traditionally used Natives as their sacrifices.

But some enterprising Imperials, Led by Dr Steam himself, have reclaimed part of the Sunken City, abandoned even by the Cult. Using advanced and novel Steampunk tech and Magic together, they have created a habitable underwater city, Foundation. Foundation is also known by another name: Ville du Sans, City of Vice. The city is open to all types of business, and has cemented itself as a thriving Party Town.

(Over a page later...)

RL New Orleans was allied with the South, but got itself swiftly occupied by the Union in short order. Personally? I'd make Coterois into this world's Casablanca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film) ), a place that, during the war, acted with great autonomy due to its remoteness, acting as both City (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CityOfSpies ) of (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Casablanca) Spies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WretchedHive ) and gateway out of a war-torn nation. During the war, Coterois was of great strategic importance (it was hard to chase smugglers into the swamps and its sailors were experienced enough to run blockades with ease), that it was the unoffical middle ground, where agents of the North and South could meet, both for diplomatic purposes, espionage and occasionally assassination. After the war, the city became a safe haven for deserters and veterans alike, particularly the more violent element who couldn't let go of the carnage they saw.

So, yeah. I'm slightly biased towards that idea for Coterois, but at this point it's almost becoming the most important metropolis in the world. Why not throw in your Vampires? Hell, at this rate, we should just combine New York's “Largest City” and “International Power” with Coterois' New Orleans/Cthulu/Casablanca/Spy-city/Bioshock thing together. Oh my god that would be too awesome.

I think we should take a page out of WoW's draenei for this one: have the main capital building be one giant piece of Ancient-God tech, possibly a starship (as it's the only thing that could feasibly be mistaken for a building). This is the nation where they use the technology and don't just guard it, right?

Combine this awesome idea with El Dorado. It shall be called... Silvarado!

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-24, 10:34 AM

Great ideas, guys! Lemme take this point by point.

The Capital: I like the intuition to name it after a person, rather than an ideal. Just to clarify, while I think we have many more mythical figures than we used to, I don't think that means we must stop developing them. If we find that adding another one (or ten) would be beneficial for whatever project we're working on at the time, I'm totally okay with that.

Here's my suggestion: a few pages ago, someone mentioned Joshua Abraham Norton, First Emperor of the United States of America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton). He happens to be one of my favorite political figures, and I love the idea of putting him in the story. Why not take out all the crazy stuff, make "Norton" the surname of the first Emperor of the New World, and name the city after him? Something like The First Canton of the Empire of the New World? Just like Washington, D.C., it would have a nickname, "Norton," also often called "Norton, C.E." (Canton of Empire). Thoughts?

Edison: I like the idea of having Edison work as a defeated, treacherous underling for Tokarev. There's a lot of potential there. Let's have his name be Jameson.

Also, I like the idea of there being a rivalry against Tokarev, but maybe it's a whole conglomerate of different companies working to overthrow him? I like the idea of Tokarev being such a monolithic force that it takes several "normal" minds to compete with him on any level.

Vampires v. Werewolves: I'm really torn on this. I think it's a great idea with a lot of potential, but I find myself getting worried that the Vampire/Werewolf conflict isn't a solid-enough part of American myth. At the same time, I think about Twilight, and I feel like I'm being ridiculous for doubting in the first place.

Here are my feelings: I love the idea of Vampires in Coterois. Maybe not controlling the city, but unliving the unlife in the Sunken Quarter, and definitely planning to take over when they finish weaving their webs. I picture Vampire mafias fighting for control over certain parts of the Sunken Quarter, although that may only make up 30% of the stories that are going on down there. They should be a significant storyline, but maybe not the major one. A linked storyline could involve the Casablanca stuff, where the Vampires are basically like the Germans: working with the French government, less effectual than they wished, but still a force to be reckoned with.

Because werewolves are typically the "lower class/industrial" monsters, I love the idea of them running a place like Chicago. Because they're typically mindless brutes, I really don't like the idea. Also, I don't know how I feel about werewolves in this setting in general, at least not in a civilized place like a large city. I'd love to hear some argument about this, because Vampires v. Werewolves would be a really convenient trope to invoke.

No matter what, I love the name "Mahigan" and think we should stick with it. The Big Onion works for me as a nickname, too.

The New York/Chicago or New York/Coterois Merger: I'm not crazy about this. New York became a big deal because it was the most likely landing place for a whole heaping helping of Europe's immigrants. It was centrally located (relative to Europe), it had LOTS of coastline, and it was one of the closest pieces of land to the Old World.

New Orleans sprang up because it was an important point of trade between the Spanish, French, and natives. It rose to prominence because it was an ideal staging point to smuggle aid to the rebels during the Revolutionary War.

Chicago came to be because it was a great spot for a "short portage" between the Great Lakes and the Mississippi River. It grew to be a notable transportation hub, in comparison to the immigrant reputation of New York and the strategic value of New Orleans.

In my mind, combining any of these three will detract from the American story. We need a place of "first contact," and it seems only natural that it should grow to be the largest city around. It's okay if it's close to the capital, because DC and NYC are close in real life. Likewise, we need some place that can serve as a Northern Trade and Transport city, as well as a city that can be a Southern Transport City, a "Neutral Ground," and a decadent mire of the corrupt and beautiful. Unless there are any disputes, let's keep them separate, at least for now.

Tree Island: It's a nice place for Slate by design. I came up with the city while reading Hicock's and Calamity Jane's wiki pages. :smalltongue:

El Dorado: I had originally planned for the Place of the Gods in the Southern desert to be the equivalent of El Dorado, but I like the idea of this capital being the next best thing. "El Dorado" means "The Golden One." What about "El Plateado," "The Silver One?"

Either way, I like that there should be a lot of Alien Magitek floating around this city, like you said. If there's an alien ship functioning as the capital building (a very cool idea), it should be relatively small (compared to the ones at the Place of the Gods), and we'll need to figure out how it moved a thousand miles to come to rest where it does. I don't like the idea of anyone actually flying it. Maybe it's always been there? Maybe the Boradoans used to protect it, but during the Rebellion of the Unworthy, the New Boradoans claimed it for their own and drove their brethren away?

Landis963

2012-02-24, 11:05 AM

Or we could shorten it to just Amicus since it would be easier to say. Or we could use the latin word Paludem or something similar. It basically means “Marsh”, which is a god descriptor for Washington. The original land Washington was built on was worthless marsh no other state wanted too badly. And this capitol is (unless Zap's reconsidered) basically on a tiny isthmus, prime marsh territory if I ever saw it.

I was basically going for "Philidelphia in latin" when I made that name, and I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't quite roll off the tongue like Philadelphia does. However, I would like to retain both halves of the meaning. So why not Amicafrater or "Ammy" for short?

I second the Edison-analogue. Back when I did a short story about an alternate America undergoing Magic Prohibition (partly the reason I was so interested in this project) I had Tesla at the head of a Super-Corporation (due to his beating out Edison with Super-SCIENCE), and Edison became his (traitorous) lackey. Just an idea to float around. It could also be good conflict to stick with competing companies.

Ooh, that's a great idea. I also like Zap's recommendation of a coalition of normal minds being curbstomped by Dr. Tokarev.

That's hilarious. Back a few pages I also suggested going with an Onion theme. It's as they say, “Great Minds look at the same Wiki pages.” :smallamused: I also suggested Railtown, Bigtime, Venteux (windy), and Zweibel (onion, as in The Big Onion). Or, Neugotham. As in, New Gotham. I guess The Dark Knight was filmed there a lot, so they use that as a nickname.

Still, Mahigan is an awesome name. Let's do that one. Merging it with NY might be problematic, though doable.

Yeah, I saw that, which is where I got the idea for the nickname. Also, my main impetus for suggesting the merger was the fact that a lot of the details of Mahigan's backstory (as I wrote them) were taken from New York's history, not Chicago's (which, to compare, was explored heavily by French explorers before being handed over in the Louisiana Purchase, and then ceded by "some Native Americans" (Wikipedia) for use as a military outpost. The city then grew out from there.

I also put down quite a bit about Coterois a few pages ago, but it might have been lost in the shuffle. I'll repeat what I had here:
A portion of Coterois sank into the sea some time ago, due in part to Pseudo-Voodoo (a favor from the Other Side gone wrong/horribly right),and also in part due to the machinations of a cult following a Cosmic Abomination (of the Lovecraftian variety). This cult are monstrous fish-people who still live in the ruined Sunken Quarter, giving black sacrifices to their Unspeakable Gods.

Wouldn't the fish people take a dim view of mouthbreathers trying to take part of their district?

The Natives hate these guys. Besides being under the "Biggest Lake Monster of All" (ie; the Ocean), these guys probably dabble in all sorts of forbidden magic and have traditionally used Natives as their sacrifices.

Not just the Natives - everybody hates these guys. (The natives are probably the only ones whose hate for the cultists needs to be expressed in italics, but that's besides the point). Besides, they look like fish, sacrifice their victims to their gods, and, y'know, sunk an entire district into the gulf.

But some enterprising Imperials, Led by Dr Steam himself, have reclaimed part of the Sunken City, abandoned even by the Cult. Using advanced and novel Steampunk tech and Magic together, they have created a habitable underwater city, Foundation. Foundation is also known by another name: Ville du Sans, City of Vice. The city is open to all types of business, and has cemented itself as a thriving Party Town.

Why should it be abandoned? I think it'd be a great source of conflict (and a campaign hook to boot) if the cultists regularly attack the watertight portion of the city.

(Over a page later...)

RL New Orleans was allied with the South, but got itself swiftly occupied by the Union in short order. Personally? I'd make Coterois into this world's Casablanca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film) ), a place that, during the war, acted with great autonomy due to its remoteness, acting as both City (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CityOfSpies ) of (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Casablanca) Spies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WretchedHive ) and gateway out of a war-torn nation. During the war, Coterois was of great strategic importance (it was hard to chase smugglers into the swamps and its sailors were experienced enough to run blockades with ease), that it was the unoffical middle ground, where agents of the North and South could meet, both for diplomatic purposes, espionage and occasionally assassination. After the war, the city became a safe haven for deserters and veterans alike, particularly the more violent element who couldn't let go of the carnage they saw.

So, yeah. I'm slightly biased towards that idea for Coterois, but at this point it's almost becoming the most important metropolis in the world. Why not throw in your Vampires? Hell, at this rate, we should just combine New York's “Largest City” and “International Power” with Coterois' New Orleans/Cthulu/Casablanca/Spy-city/Bioshock thing together. Oh my god that would be too awesome.

This, right here? This is gold. However, I think we're spending so much time on the other cities that New York is kind of getting lost in the shuffle. Also, as to why the cultists got so much power in the first place? Two words: Blood Magic.

[SPOILER]Combine this awesome idea with El Dorado. It shall be called... Silvarado!

:smallamused: I see what you did there.

Landis963

2012-02-24, 11:36 AM

Great ideas, guys! Lemme take this point by point.

The Capital: I like the intuition to name it after a person, rather than an ideal. Just to clarify, while I think we have many more mythical figures than we used to, I don't think that means we must stop developing them. If we find that adding another one (or ten) would be beneficial for whatever project we're working on at the time, I'm totally okay with that.

Here's my suggestion: a few pages ago, someone mentioned Joshua Abraham Norton, First Emperor of the United States of America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton). He happens to be one of my favorite political figures, and I love the idea of putting him in the story. Why not take out all the crazy stuff, make "Norton" the surname of the first Emperor of the New World, and name the city after him? Something like The First Canton of the Empire of the New World? Just like Washington, D.C., it would have a nickname, "Norton," also often called "Norton, C.E." (Canton of Empire). Thoughts?

It's better than my idea, and we can use Amicafrater as sort of a New York/Philadelphia hybrid. (God, I'm practically enamored of these mergers, aren't I? :smallsigh:)

Edison: I like the idea of having Edison work as a defeated, treacherous underling for Tokarev. There's a lot of potential there. Let's have his name be Jameson.

Also, I like the idea of there being a rivalry against Tokarev, but maybe it's a whole conglomerate of different companies working to overthrow him? I like the idea of Tokarev being such a monolithic force that it takes several "normal" minds to compete with him on any level.

From what I recall of Edison's history, he seems like the sort of person who might be described as a "stick-in-the-mud," but is in fact very imaginative when it comes to solving problems. I'm envisaging him as the second-in-command of an engineering corporation who is at the head of this trust of science companies, with the head being someone who is much more imaginative when it comes to generating new ideas in the first place. Numero Uno would think up a plan, Jameson would thrash out all the kinks.

Vampires v. Werewolves: I'm really torn on this. I think it's a great idea with a lot of potential, but I find myself getting worried that the Vampire/Werewolf conflict isn't a solid-enough part of American myth. At the same time, I think about Twilight, and I feel like I'm being ridiculous for doubting in the first place.

But that's the beauty of it. Neither of them necessarily needs to be a major faction. The vampires are having enough trouble trying to consolidate control over Coterois, and the werewolves hide their wolfness enough that it's barely noticeable (I mean stuff like ramps outnumbering stairs two-to-one outside of buildings being one of the very, very few details apparent at a glance).

Here are my feelings: I love the idea of Vampires in Coterois. Maybe not controlling the city, but unliving the unlife in the Sunken Quarter, and definitely planning to take over when they finish weaving their webs. I picture Vampire mafias fighting for control over certain parts of the Sunken Quarter, although that may only make up 30% of the stories that are going on down there. They should be a significant storyline, but maybe not the major one. A linked storyline could involve the Casablanca stuff, where the Vampires are basically like the Germans: working with the French government, less effectual than they wished, but still a force to be reckoned with.

Vampire Mafias make me think of Vampire: the Masquerade. Which is awesome.

Because werewolves are typically the "lower class/industrial" monsters, I love the idea of them running a place like Chicago. Because they're typically mindless brutes, I really don't like the idea. Also, I don't know how I feel about werewolves in this setting in general, at least not in a civilized place like a large city. I'd love to hear some argument about this, because Vampires v. Werewolves would be a really convenient trope to invoke.

No matter what, I love the name "Mahigan" and think we should stick with it. The Big Onion works for me as a nickname, too.

They don't have to be mindless brutes, and again, they don't even need to be a large part of the setting. Also, I thought the werewolves were subjugated by the European vampires as much as the humans. Besides, the mindless brute werewolf archetype needs to die in a fire, not least because it's an excuse for angst in a protagonist, and an excuse for moustache-twirling in a villain.

The New York/Chicago or New York/Coterois Merger: I'm not crazy about this. * fair points about NY, New Orleans, and Chicago

Fair enough.

Tree Island: It's a nice place for Slate by design. I came up with the city while reading Hicock's and Calamity Jane's wiki pages. :smalltongue:

Ah, Wikipedia. Is there anything you don't know? :smallbiggrin:

El Dorado: I had originally planned for the Place of the Gods in the Southern desert to be the equivalent of El Dorado, but I like the idea of this capital being the next best thing. "El Dorado" means "The Golden One." What about "El Plateado," "The Silver One?"

A touch awkward, IMO, but I can't say much since I came up with "Frateramica".

Either way, I like that there should be a lot of Alien Magitek floating around this city, like you said. If there's an alien ship functioning as the capital building (a very cool idea), it should be relatively small (compared to the ones at the Place of the Gods), and we'll need to figure out how it moved a thousand miles to come to rest where it does. I don't like the idea of anyone actually flying it. Maybe it's always been there? Maybe the Boradoans used to protect it, but during the Rebellion of the Unworthy, the New Boradoans claimed it for their own and drove their brethren away?

Easy, it crashlanded there and is now for all intents and purposes earthbound, and the New Borodoans found it after the Rebellion (or even during - it'd be just the superweapon that would give them an edge), and have been using its wonders ever since.

The Durvin

2012-02-24, 02:09 PM

All right, one more. Lumberjacks had their Paul Bunyan, and--I don't know how I forgot this one--steelworkers had Joe Magarac.

A forty-foot man made of steel.

Yeah, really. They don't actually call him mechanical, but he was made of steel and worked twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, which sounds like a giant robot to me. Some versions have him dying because his...uh...steelworking-place (steel mill?) was about to miss a crucial shipment because of low supplies and he allowed himself to be melted down.

Okay! Okay. I'm done now. No, wait, Poe made up all kinds of bizarre names for women in his poetry. Okay, now I'm done. Does Bigfoot count as mythology? No, no, no, I'm done. Seven Gates of Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gates_of_hell) and the Melonheads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melon_heads)--no! No. Done.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-24, 11:34 PM

I was basically going for "Philidelphia in latin" when I made that name, and I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't quite roll off the tongue like Philadelphia does. However, I would like to retain both halves of the meaning. So why not Amicafrater or "Ammy" for short?

Like, Fremeria? Or Amefreia? I guess I suck at this too.

Wouldn't the fish people take a dim view of mouthbreathers trying to take part of their district?

I figured there was some sort of Cold War going on. The Cultists lacked the raw power to keep Dr Steam from building Foundation, but they can certainly make life miserable for those who dwell in the city. Lots of potential plot hooks there.

Not just the Natives - everybody hates these guys. (The natives are probably the only ones whose hate for the cultists needs to be expressed in italics, but that's besides the point). Besides, they look like fish, sacrifice their victims to their gods, and, y'know, sunk an entire district into the gulf.

Okay, true. I meant that Natives, being aware of certain Lake Monsters (read: Monsters that are also Lakes), would have an especially bitter hatred for a race that seemingly lived beneath a Lake as big as the Sea.

Why should it be abandoned? I think it'd be a great source of conflict (and a campaign hook to boot) if the cultists regularly attack the watertight portion of the city.

Again, that's better. I imagined that the Cultists just couldn't fill an entire city on their own.

This, right here? This is gold. However, I think we're spending so much time on the other cities that New York is kind of getting lost in the shuffle. Also, as to why the cultists got so much power in the first place? Two words: Blood Magic.

You're right. We should pick out a spot on the map (page 1) where NY would most likely be in this world and get started on that next. But I think we need an angle. Coterois is “Halfway-Underwater Casablanca”, Mahigan is a trade hub on the edge of civilization, Norton is the Capitol (awesome name Zap!). We also should look at some Westcoast cities like San Fran. (California ftw!)

From what I recall of Edison's history, he seems like the sort of person who might be described as a "stick-in-the-mud," but is in fact very imaginative when it comes to solving problems. I'm envisaging him as the second-in-command of an engineering corporation who is at the head of this trust of science companies, with the head being someone who is much more imaginative when it comes to generating new ideas in the first place. Numero Uno would think up a plan, Jameson would thrash out all the kinks.

Actually, it was quite the opposite historically. Tesla (if I remember his quotes on Edison correctly) basically thought Edison was a colossal idiot. That whole “Genius is 1% Inspiration and 99% Perspiration” thing that Edison believed? Tesla hated that. He said that if Edison was halfway competent he'd just do the proper math beforehand so he could skip the first 4,999 attempts to make a ligthbulb, and instead just make a friggin' lightbulb on try one. Now, Edison had work ethic, don't get me wrong. It's just that it seems to me that Dr Steam (again, if we go based on historical models, which we might not for the sake of a good story model) would be the one who comes up with a brilliant idea, and then invents it himself, but then Jameson is right there to run all the marketing on the new product and make it a viable business option. Jameson is the practical businessman inventor, whereas Steam is the Genius, but cripplingly OCD/Insane inventor.

You could make it a sitcom. Wacky Dr Steam's oddness causes hijinks that Jameson has to fix. Hilarity Ensues.

But that's the beauty of it. Neither of them necessarily needs to be a major faction. The vampires are having enough trouble trying to consolidate control over Coterois, and the werewolves hide their wolfness enough that it's barely noticeable (I mean stuff like ramps outnumbering stairs two-to-one outside of buildings being one of the very, very few details apparent at a glance) ... Vampire Mafias make me think of Vampire: the Masquerade. Which is awesome.

Seconded. Oh so seconded!

Easy, it crashlanded there and is now for all intents and purposes earthbound, and the New Borodoans found it after the Rebellion (or even during - it'd be just the superweapon that would give them an edge), and have been using its wonders ever since.

What if Plateado is simply too advanced. The computer that runs the systems has some sort of Prime Directive hardwired in, just in case it's masters had to leave quickly and sentient life developed on the planet it was stationed on before they got back. Thus, Plateado itself only allows the Nuevo Boradoans to get ahold of tech that they prove they can use responsibly in the computer's eyes. The people don't know about this, only that a strangely high percentage of their scientists and archaeologists have these great breakthrough ideas while their dreaming, but can't remember what in the dream inspired them.

Here's my suggestion: a few pages ago, someone mentioned Joshua Abraham Norton, First Emperor of the United States of America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton). He happens to be one of my favorite political figures, and I love the idea of putting him in the story. Why not take out all the crazy stuff, make "Norton" the surname of the first Emperor of the New World, and name the city after him? Something like The First Canton of the Empire of the New World? Just like Washington, D.C., it would have a nickname, "Norton," also often called "Norton, C.E." (Canton of Empire). Thoughts?

Very cool idea. I'm onboard.

I picture Vampire mafias fighting for control over certain parts of the Sunken Quarter, although that may only make up 30% of the stories that are going on down there. They should be a significant storyline, but maybe not the major one. A linked storyline could involve the Casablanca stuff, where the Vampires are basically like the Germans: working with the French government, less effectual than they wished, but still a force to be reckoned with.

Pretty good idea. Although if anything the Empire is the Germans. They're the big, powerful, well, Empire. They are ruling over an ancient city with layers of civilization over it (Natives, the Afro-Carribean-French group, then the Empire (older), then Cthulu, then the Sunken Quarter, aka Foundation). If anything, the Vampires are the French. They've lost a lot of power and majesty from what they're used to, but many of them are at least somewhat established in the city. I think it's better for all sides in the Spy War going on in Coterois to be roughly equal in power/influence, just because it allows for more plot hooks.

El Dorado: I had originally planned for the Place of the Gods in the Southern desert to be the equivalent of El Dorado, but I like the idea of this capital being the next best thing. "El Dorado" means "The Golden One." What about "El Plateado," "The Silver One?"

I still like Silverado... :smallamused: but I'll consent to Plateado. Sounds good.

Either way, I like that there should be a lot of Alien Magitek floating around this city, like you said. If there's an alien ship functioning as the capital building (a very cool idea), it should be relatively small (compared to the ones at the Place of the Gods), and we'll need to figure out how it moved a thousand miles to come to rest where it does. I don't like the idea of anyone actually flying it. Maybe it's always been there? Maybe the Boradoans used to protect it, but during the Rebellion of the Unworthy, the New Boradoans claimed it for their own and drove their brethren away?

As I mentioned above, how about Plateado is an outpost? It's like a small research station set up by the original masters of the alien tech.

Landis963

2012-02-25, 05:16 AM

Like, Fremeria? Or Amefreia? I guess I suck at this too.

Of course, we can always defer to the original poster on stuff like this. Zap? What do you suggest for the New York analogue?

I figured there was some sort of Cold War going on. The Cultists lacked the raw power to keep Dr Steam from building Foundation, but they can certainly make life miserable for those who dwell in the city. Lots of potential plot hooks there.

That also explains why the mafias are around - protection rackets that can be more everpresent than the police force.

Okay, true. I meant that Natives, being aware of certain Lake Monsters (read: Monsters that are also Lakes), would have an especially bitter hatred for a race that seemingly lived beneath a Lake as big as the Sea.

Fair enough. Like I said, the natives' hatred for these cultists probably needs to be expressed in italics, as opposed to the normal garden-variety hatred expressed by most others.

Again, that's better. I imagined that the Cultists just couldn't fill an entire city on their own.

Remember, we're only talking about one district, the size of Manhattan at the very largest.

You're right. We should pick out a spot on the map (page 1) where NY would most likely be in this world and get started on that next. But I think we need an angle. Coterois is “Halfway-Underwater Casablanca”, Mahigan is a trade hub on the edge of civilization, Norton is the Capitol (awesome name Zap!). We also should look at some Westcoast cities like San Fran. (California ftw!)

Well, NY in real life was the home of both Tesla and Edison, so why don't we make that the most technologically advanced place? (technically advanced in terms of steampunk, that is; no chance in h**l it could compete with, say, the New Borado capitol). Steampowered tramways (can be above or below-ground, doesn't really matter), steam-powered horseless carriages, Ironmen everywhere, you name it.

Actually, it was quite the opposite historically. Tesla (if I remember his quotes on Edison correctly) basically thought Edison was a colossal idiot. That whole “Genius is 1% Inspiration and 99% Perspiration” thing that Edison believed? Tesla hated that. He said that if Edison was halfway competent he'd just do the proper math beforehand so he could skip the first 4,999 attempts to make a ligthbulb, and instead just make a friggin' lightbulb on try one. Now, Edison had work ethic, don't get me wrong. It's just that it seems to me that Dr Steam (again, if we go based on historical models, which we might not for the sake of a good story model) would be the one who comes up with a brilliant idea, and then invents it himself, but then Jameson is right there to run all the marketing on the new product and make it a viable business option. Jameson is the practical businessman inventor, whereas Steam is the Genius, but cripplingly OCD/Insane inventor.

You could make it a sitcom. Wacky Dr Steam's oddness causes hijinks that Jameson has to fix. Hilarity Ensues.

Hehehe :smallamused: Walter Bishop meets Arthur from Inception. Also, I think you missed the basic gist of what I said on that topic, although I might be misremembering the historical evidence of what lead me to that conclusion. I'll requote it here, with added emphasis.

...he seems like the sort of person who might be described as a "stick-in-the-mud," but is in fact very imaginative when it comes to solving problems. I'm envisaging him as the second-in-command of an engineering corporation who is at the head of this trust of science companies, with the head being someone who is much more imaginative when it comes to generating new ideas in the first place. Numero Uno would think up a plan, Jameson would thrash out all the kinks.

Sound familiar?

What if Plateado is simply too advanced. The computer that runs the systems has some sort of Prime Directive hardwired in, just in case it's masters had to leave quickly and sentient life developed on the planet it was stationed on before they got back. Thus, Plateado itself only allows the Nuevo Boradoans to get ahold of tech that they prove they can use responsibly in the computer's eyes. The people don't know about this, only that a strangely high percentage of their scientists and archaeologists have these great breakthrough ideas while their dreaming, but can't remember what in the dream inspired them.

That implies some sort of AI program in the outpost/scout ship/whathaveyou that became New Borado. I'm not sure that fits with the setting.

Very cool idea. I'm onboard.

+1

Pretty good idea. Although if anything the Empire is the Germans. They're the big, powerful, well, Empire. They are ruling over an ancient city with layers of civilization over it (Natives, the Afro-Carribean-French group, then the Empire (older), then Cthulu, then the Sunken Quarter, aka Foundation). If anything, the Vampires are the French. They've lost a lot of power and majesty from what they're used to, but many of them are at least somewhat established in the city. I think it's better for all sides in the Spy War going on in Coterois to be roughly equal in power/influence, just because it allows for more plot hooks.

mmm.... Noir.

As I mentioned above, how about Plateado is an outpost? It's like a small research station set up by the original masters of the alien tech.

It'd have to be either bigger on the inside or possessed of some AI (or both) that keeps the Neuvo Boradoans from finding the good stuff. Again, I'll defer to Zap on issues of schizo tech.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-25, 12:25 PM

Wow! It's nice to wake up on a Saturday and see so much thought bouncing around for the setting! Thanks, guys!

That said, Landis, when you get a chance, could you go back and delete those three reposts of yours? The server sucks, but I'd like to minimize the product of its suckery. :smallsmile:

Let's see if I can take this point-by-point again.

New York: It's identity should be 1) that it's the largest city in the New World, 2) that it's the greatest melting pot of people and ideas that the world has ever seen, 3) as a result of the first two, it's technological nursery for the Empire. I think it should be on par with Nuevo Borado in terms of technology, it's just that "New York" is all about Steam, and Nuevo Borado has all this super-advanced stuff lying around that they can't figure out how to use. N.B. only has access to a fraction what's lying around, but that's still enough to put them on even footing with the likes of Dr. Steam and his creations, which scares the Empire.

As far as names are concerned, let's look at the history: people are coming to this city by boat because it's the easiest way to get to the New World, a land full of potential. "Port" seems like a good element for a name. Maybe it's the first place people landed in the New World? Firstport?

The Sunken Quarter: I had forgotten the bit about the voodoo creeps sinking part of Coterois. I like it, but here's how I think we should handle it.

These natives sunk maybe 10% of Coterois, the equivalent of 100 or so city blocks. That's the "Sunken Quarter." Dr. Steam started a project to reclaim it, and has since managed to recover 20 or so blocks. What they've "bubbled" so far has been wet, seaweedy, and fishy, but otherwise unchanged from the city that fell beneath the waves.

However, explorations from the past year or so have started to uncover stranger and stranger things. Signs of large, seemingly intelligent life inhabiting the various underwater buildings. Things like writing-esque scratchings along the walls, strange structures that are cobbled together to resemble archways, altars, and even a large dais in one location.

Not long after that, the project started losing workers to more and more "accidents." Workers would disappear, and searches would only result in battered, bloodied equipment. Sometimes pieces of human remains would be found underwater, but nothing enough to offer any real clues, much less a conclusion.

Since then, the project has been officially tabled until further investigation can be made. The 3 or 4 blocks that were under exploration have been sealed off, and remain a sort of middle-ground between the underwater paradise of Aqualuxia and the ruins of the Sunken Quarter. Not even the largest, most powerful gangs have attempted to spread into this half-developed area, but it is rumored that strange lights can be seen coming from the district on the blackest of nights.

----

That will establish a sort of war-zone between the humans and the fish people. It gives the fish people a big enough area to be able to disappear when they want to, and it also gives the humans the feeling that they might be overwhelmed by a nameless horror without going into any details. Looking at a large city (I'm using Chicago's Loop area since that's where I live), 20 city blocks is plenty of space to have a lot of underwater vampire vs. Empire vs. shady types intrigue, and those 20 blocks could just be the shadier stuff that goes on, since we also have the entirety of the city on the surface to play with.

Steam/Jameson: We've got a lot of political intrigue going on in Coterois right now, and it's pretty dramatic intrigue. Making Jameson into an underling for Tokarev and pitting them against the faceless conglomeration of corportations could provide a lot of fodder for lighthearted/comedic corporate espionage stories. I've been looking for a setting that would accomodate that, so let's go for it!

In a broader sense, we could make New York and Coterois very similar in terms of content, but just make Coterois the "darker and edgier" of the two. Sort of a Metropolis vs. Gotham City kind of thing.

Vampires v. Werewolves: Let's go for it. We can re-envision werewolves as something more sophisticated/more intelligent. Chicago's own history of gang violence--although it was 70 or so years after what we're using for this setting--could provide a lot of inspiration. Mahigan: High-rollers and businessmen with a brutal edge.

New Boradoville: El Plateado isn't nearly as eloquent as Silverado. I'm more than okay with using that for the name. As far as I'm concerned, it would be really similar to that (nameless?) city that Zorro chills out at. That makes for one California city already... any thoughts for others?

I mentioned N.B. tech in the New York section, but I'll talk about it here too. Basically, I think they should have the most advanced stuff anyone has ever seen or heard of lying around in all these vaults, but they have no idea how to use most of it. They've managed to "crack the code" so to speak with a small fraction of what they've got, and that's still put them on even footing with steam power. That frightens the Empire, so the Empire has a treaty with them that threatens to boil over into a war at almost any time.

Visually, I think these "ships" should look verrrry similar to the pyramids of the Mayincatec people. They definitely shouldn't look like actual spaceships, and I'd like to stick to using rock instead of metal as much as possible. There's a lot of potential in nature (http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL95/159379/7322357/301399291.jpg), already.

The Seven Gates of Hell: We can incorporate this into Usher Ravenholme, yes we sure can.

.::EDIT::.
I added a section in the OP called "Locations," for listing the names and very basic attributes of the cities we're developing. More will be added as we settle on names.

Landis963

2012-02-25, 02:33 PM

Wow! It's nice to wake up on a Saturday and see so much thought bouncing around for the setting! Thanks, guys!

That said, Landis, when you get a chance, could you go back and delete those three reposts of yours? The server sucks, but I'd like to minimize the product of its suckery. :smallsmile:

Quadruple post ARRRGGGH!

New York: It's identity should be 1) that it's the largest city in the New World, 2) that it's the greatest melting pot of people and ideas that the world has ever seen, 3) as a result of the first two, it's technological nursery for the Empire. I think it should be on par with Nuevo Borado in terms of technology, it's just that "New York" is all about Steam, and Nuevo Borado has all this super-advanced stuff lying around that they can't figure out how to use. N.B. only has access to a fraction what's lying around, but that's still enough to put them on even footing with the likes of Dr. Steam and his creations, which scares the Empire.

As far as names are concerned, let's look at the history: people are coming to this city by boat because it's the easiest way to get to the New World, a land full of potential. "Port" seems like a good element for a name. Maybe it's the first place people landed in the New World? Firstport?

Sure, that evokes cities such as RI's Newport, which I think is a good thing. Especially since it doesn't resemble Newport in any other respect.

The Sunken Quarter: I had forgotten the bit about the voodoo creeps sinking part of Coterois. I like it, but here's how I think we should handle it.
*wonderful, scary, slimy gold here*

----

That will establish a sort of war-zone between the humans and the fish people. It gives the fish people a big enough area to be able to disappear when they want to, and it also gives the humans the feeling that they might be overwhelmed by a nameless horror without going into any details. Looking at a large city (I'm using Chicago's Loop area since that's where I live), 20 city blocks is plenty of space to have a lot of underwater vampire vs. Empire vs. shady types intrigue, and those 20 blocks could just be the shadier stuff that goes on, since we also have the entirety of the city on the surface to play with.

I like. A lot.

Steam/Jameson: We've got a lot of political intrigue going on in Coterois right now, and it's pretty dramatic intrigue. Making Jameson into an underling for Tokarev and pitting them against the faceless conglomeration of corportations could provide a lot of fodder for lighthearted/comedic corporate espionage stories. I've been looking for a setting that would accomodate that, so let's go for it!

In a broader sense, we could make New York and Coterois very similar in terms of content, but just make Coterois the "darker and edgier" of the two. Sort of a Metropolis vs. Gotham City kind of thing.

Sounds like a plan. Also, I had an idea about Steam and Jameson's relationship. If and when a PC group encounters them, they should be having a comically heated discussion on the steampunk equivalent to AC and DC - with Jameson espousing AC as more efficient and Steam espousing DC to be contrary.

Vampires v. Werewolves: Let's go for it. We can re-envision werewolves as something more sophisticated/more intelligent. Chicago's own history of gang violence--although it was 70 or so years after what we're using for this setting--could provide a lot of inspiration. Mahigan: High-rollers and businessmen with a brutal edge.

My thought was having the physics of Harry Potter animagi crossed with the normal trappings of werewolfdom - can turn every few hours as a function of fatigue, with the cooldown period getting shorter as the full moon approaches, with the changed form of a dire wolf. Intelligence is mostly retained, but smell, hearing and id are all amplified at the cost of colorblindness.

New Boradoville: El Plateado isn't nearly as eloquent as Silverado. I'm more than okay with using that for the name. As far as I'm concerned, it would be really similar to that (nameless?) city that Zorro chills out at. That makes for one California city already... any thoughts for others?

Silverado (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/Silverado), however (WARNING: TvTropes link), is the name of a very well known western, not to mention a successful line of Chevy pickup trucks. Also, the original Zorro comics placed it in the pueblo of Reina de Los Angeles. Why don't we call that city something like Platarena, to get the best of both?

I mentioned N.B. tech in the New York section, but I'll talk about it here too. Basically, I think they should have the most advanced stuff anyone has ever seen or heard of lying around in all these vaults, but they have no idea how to use most of it. They've managed to "crack the code" so to speak with a small fraction of what they've got, and that's still put them on even footing with steam power. That frightens the Empire, so the Empire has a treaty with them that threatens to boil over into a war at almost any time.

Excellent idea, especially since it's very possible the people of Platarena could accidentally break it while trying to figure out WTF it is. Also, it moves it away from straight sci-fi in the way that an AI guardian or extradimensional storage space would.

Visually, I think these "ships" should look verrrry similar to the pyramids of the Mayincatec people. They definitely shouldn't look like actual spaceships, and I'd like to stick to using rock instead of metal as much as possible. There's a lot of potential in nature (http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL95/159379/7322357/301399291.jpg), already.

Why don't we model this advanced civilization that the New Boradoans have moved into on Starcraft's Protoss? They have similar (http://blog.ocad.ca/wordpress/vism2b15-fw2011-01/files/2011/09/3260126777_5da2fa24a7.jpg) sweeping (http://images.brighthub.com/19/7/1975f60855d49042f6bce7ed588018f207da0eca_small.jpg ) lines (http://images.brighthub.com/ff/0/ff07d0683fc7d56d7c873a8717692f6ad3fd9969_small.jpg ) in their architecture, and although they use metal (specifically, gold) more than rock, that can easily be changed for the ground buildings of this bygone civilization. Also, the Protoss have a predilection for floating crystals, one that can easily be done away with.

EDIT: to clarify, "sweeping lines" refers to the canyon walls in the pic, and I thought of it because of the similarity between the Protoss Nexus (the first pic, IIRC) and the mayan ziggurat.

The Seven Gates of Hell: We can incorporate this into Usher Ravenholme, yes we sure can.

Would this series of gates be, for example, near Usher's hometown?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-25, 07:23 PM

New York: ... Firstport?

I like that name. I agree with Landis that it's better than Newport (I live near a Newport, so that would've bugged me).

The Sunken Quarter: I had forgotten the bit about the voodoo creeps sinking part of Coterois. I like it, but here's how I think we should handle it...

Lost in the shuffle, like a lot of things. I like the angle you've gone with. Very creepy, very appropriate. When I wrote what I had on the Sunken Quarter, I did so thinking that you wanted Dr Steam's Reclaimed City to be like Rapture from Bioshock. Dunno how much that still applies.

In a broader sense, we could make New York and Coterois very similar in terms of content, but just make Coterois the "darker and edgier" of the two. Sort of a Metropolis vs. Gotham City kind of thing.

I also like this a lot. You're analogy actually made me imagine Steam as Superman and Jameson as Batman. Much lol'ing ensued.

New Boradoville: El Plateado isn't nearly as eloquent as Silverado. I'm more than okay with using that for the name. As far as I'm concerned, it would be really similar to that (nameless?) city that Zorro chills out at. That makes for one California city already... any thoughts for others?

:smalleek: I need to use more emoticons when I'm joking. Yes, like Landis pointed out, Silverado was a movie/truck. The joke was too good to pass up. El Dorado - City of Gold – City of Silver – El Silverado.

As for other Westcoast cities...

San Bernardo
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/Merkuh5-1.jpg

Once a thriving trade hub on the western coast, San Bernardo was destroyed in a massive fire and earthquake. It's position at the mouth of a huge gulf makes it a perfect harbor for trade ships as well as immigrants from across the world. San Bernardo was both the largest economic center of the Empire on the westcoast, but also it's largest cultural melting pot there as well. When it's destruction came, Dr Steam took the initiative and practically offered to rebuild the city for nothing. Jameson was said to have had a stroke over the incident.

Steam has since rebuilt much of the city, though his own peculiarities have bled into the project. For example, despite much of San Bernardo being built originally atop nearly thirty hills along the coast, all Steam's streets have been made straight as an arrow. This has led to a number of streets attempting to go up sheer cliffs in places. Nearer to the coast the street layout is navigable, even though carriages cannot take certain ones due to their elevation, near the inland portion of the city, San Bernardo becomes a labyrinth of side streets and staircases.

San Bernardo, or Steamopolis as some have taken to calling it, is already once again the most important, and largest western Imperial city, though there is still much construction left to manage. Dr Steam's attempts to remake the city into the world's most modern one may yet succeed, if he ever finishes it. There is also the trouble of the gangs. Various minorities, including foreigners, Imperials and Natives split the original city into ethnic lines, leading to a whole host of illicit activities and crimes, including the occasional gang war. Even after the destruction of the Old Town, crime showed no slowing down in the region. What happens next is anyone's guess.

Sounds like a plan. Also, I had an idea about Steam and Jameson's relationship. If and when a PC group encounters them, they should be having a comically heated discussion on the steampunk equivalent to AC and DC - with Jameson espousing AC as more efficient and Steam espousing DC to be contrary.

“Dad-blam-it Doctor! I tell you it'll never work. Steam can't go two ways. An alternating current wouldn't-”
“If you're just going to blather on about you're 'directed current', Mr Jameson, then maybe you should sit in your corner.”
“I dun wanna go in the corner...”

(Not to be contrary again, but I think Tesla was for AC and Edison against. Doesn't actually matter since we're talking about steam, but oh well.)

Also, the original Zorro comics placed it in the pueblo of Reina de Los Angeles. Why don't we call that city something like Platarena, to get the best of both?

I really like that name. It sounds fairly authentic.

Would this series of gates be, for example, near Usher's hometown?

Perhaps after Usher's...disappearance, the Sanitorium he spent some time in appeared to suffer a strange haunting. As in, every square inch of it started bleeding nightmares into the surrounding countryside, tearing a dimensional hole into the universe. Most people only believe this is a Gate to Hell. It's just that poor Usher's mind looks an awful lot like it.

Landis963

2012-02-26, 07:00 AM

As for other Westcoast cities...

San Bernardo
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/Merkuh5-1.jpg

...When it's destruction came, Dr Steam took the initiative and practically offered to rebuild the city for nothing. Jameson was said to have had a stroke over the incident.

:smallbiggrin: I lol'ed.

Steam has since rebuilt much of the city, though his own peculiarities have bled into the project. For example, despite much of San Bernardo being built originally atop nearly thirty hills along the coast, all Steam's streets have been made straight as an arrow. This has led to a number of streets attempting to go up sheer cliffs in places. Nearer to the coast the street layout is navigable, even though carriages cannot take certain ones due to their elevation, near the inland portion of the city, San Bernardo becomes a labyrinth of side streets and staircases.

San Bernardo, or Steamopolis as some have taken to calling it, is already once again the most important, and largest western Imperial city, though there is still much construction left to manage. Dr Steam's attempts to remake the city into the world's most modern one may yet succeed, if he ever finishes it. There is also the trouble of the gangs. Various minorities, including foreigners, Imperials and Natives split the original city into ethnic lines, leading to a whole host of illicit activities and crimes, including the occasional gang war. Even after the destruction of the Old Town, crime showed no slowing down in the region. What happens next is anyone's guess.

Assuming that San Bernardo is a Los Angeles/San Diego-esque city, I can get on board with this, with one addition. What do you think of a steam-powered trolley system on the most impassible streets, a desperate addition by Jameson to make some profit off the project?

“Dad-blam-it Doctor! I tell you it'll never work. Steam can't go two ways. An alternating current wouldn't-”
“If you're just going to blather on about you're 'directed current', Mr Jameson, then maybe you should sit in your corner.”
“I dun wanna go in the corner...”

(Not to be contrary again, but I think Tesla was for AC and Edison against. Doesn't actually matter since we're talking about steam, but oh well.)

Not sure who's who in the argument exactly, but the switching of loyalties was deliberate as a twist on RL history. Also, "I dun wanna go in the corner" is troubling no matter who it's attributed to, especially as Jameson might be treacherous, but he would be competent enough to rate the position he's currently in, i.e. Igor to Tokarev's Frankenstein. This is a mad scientist-beleaguered assistant relationship, as I see it, with Jameson playing the straight guy to Tokarev's wild hypotheses.

Perhaps after Usher's...disappearance, the Sanitorium he spent some time in appeared to suffer a strange haunting. As in, every square inch of it started bleeding nightmares into the surrounding countryside, tearing a dimensional hole into the universe. Most people only believe this is a Gate to Hell. It's just that poor Usher's mind looks an awful lot like it.

Ooh, I like it, fits in well with the "latent psychic" part. Should we keep the number of gates at seven, or have the DM roll a d6 every time a party enters, just to keep the party guessing?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-26, 08:01 PM

Assuming that San Bernardo is a Los Angeles/San Diego-esque city, I can get on board with this, with one addition. What do you think of a steam-powered trolley system on the most impassible streets, a desperate addition by Jameson to make some profit off the project?

Actually I based this off San Francisco. It was destroyed in the 1906 Fire/Earthquake (a bad day to be sure), and I thought it would be cool for Dr Steam to want to rebuild it as some sort of Super-Science-City. I do love the Steam-Trollies though.

Not sure who's who in the argument exactly, but the switching of loyalties was deliberate as a twist on RL history. Also, "I dun wanna go in the corner" is troubling no matter who it's attributed to, especially as Jameson might be treacherous, but he would be competent enough to rate the position he's currently in, i.e. Igor to Tokarev's Frankenstein. This is a mad scientist-beleaguered assistant relationship, as I see it, with Jameson playing the straight guy to Tokarev's wild hypotheses.

Just a joke. A real argument would be really boring since it would be entirely made of Super-Steam-Science and industry terms no one in our reality could piece together. I agree with you entirely on this point.

Ooh, I like it, fits in well with the "latent psychic" part. Should we keep the number of gates at seven, or have the DM roll a d6 every time a party enters, just to keep the party guessing?

Roll a d6? That's manipulative, cruel, liable to cause panic in the players... I have no problem with this. :smallcool::smallamused:

Edit: Got bored. Needed to photoshop. This is result. I can edit this much easier than the other one. Close?
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/Murkapol-1.jpg

ForzaFiori

2012-02-26, 10:23 PM

Hey, just noticed this thread, and I haven't read it all yet, but at least in the first post I noticed that you dont have a lot of stuff from the SE. The gullah culture on the cost has some really interesting ghost stories and myths. I don't know a whole lot about it, but I do know that hags (something I noticed wasn't on the first post under monsters) are fairly common, with stories about them all up and down the east coast. Also, you could consider having someone like The Swamp Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion), fighting a guerrilla war somewhere. He an extremely esteemed figure around here.

Landis963

2012-02-26, 11:06 PM

Actually I based this off San Francisco. It was destroyed in the 1906 Fire/Earthquake (a bad day to be sure), and I thought it would be cool for Dr Steam to want to rebuild it as some sort of Super-Science-City. I do love the Steam-Trollies though.

It actually doesn't really matter what it was inspired by, it's a good idea either way. I notice on the map you have San Bernardo floating over two city markers. Maybe a pet project of Tokarev's is a grand archway or bridge connecting the two, as a sort of vanity project. Or maybe a similar bridge was destroyed in the earthquake, and Tokarev is making it self-repairing, or something.

Just a joke. A real argument would be really boring since it would be entirely made of Super-Steam-Science and industry terms no one in our reality could piece together. I agree with you entirely on this point.

I can see the concern, but if Walter Bishop and Astrid can banter wittily about "scientific" matters without getting mired in jargon, I don't see why Tokarev and Jameson can't either.

Roll a d6? That's manipulative, cruel, liable to cause panic in the players... I have no problem with this. :smallcool::smallamused:

There's got to be a use for the Xykon smiley here, but for the life of me I can't think of a good, relevant, pithy quote.

Edit: Got bored. Needed to photoshop. This is result. I can edit this much easier than the other one. Close?
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/Murkapol.jpg

Where's Firstport? Did we ever figure that out? Also, I noticed we have four other unmarked cities, not counting one which is reserved for Firstport, wherever that ends up, and one of the ones under San Bernardo. Are those for Zap to figure out?

Hey, just noticed this thread, and I haven't read it all yet, but at least in the first post I noticed that you dont have a lot of stuff from the SE. The gullah culture on the cost has some really interesting ghost stories and myths. I don't know a whole lot about it, but I do know that hags (something I noticed wasn't on the first post under monsters) are fairly common, with stories about them all up and down the east coast. Also, you could consider having someone like The Swamp Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion), fighting a guerrilla war somewhere. He an extremely esteemed figure around here.

We actually haven't covered that area of American mythology yet, although Norton, C.E. actually fits the bill in terms of relative proximity to the area. Also, it feels like we need another city, farther south, on one of the two peninsulas near the mouth of the gulf. If we end up implementing that, that would be the perfect place for southeast US myths and stuff.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-26, 11:33 PM

Roll a d6? That's manipulative, cruel, liable to cause panic in the players... I have no problem with this.

I love it! Keeping the players guessing is a wonderful thing.

Where's Firstport? Did we ever figure that out? Also, I noticed we have four other unmarked cities, not counting one which is reserved for Firstport, wherever that ends up, and one of the ones under San Bernardo. Are those for Zap to figure out?

Great map, Ninja! I like it!

Firstport is the city to the West, roughly on a level with Mahigan. I figured the other four cities were just for us to develop when we felt like it.

A southern city would be perfect. One thing I'm noticing, though: we had talked about the North being the ones who were the defeated agrarian society, and the South being the triumphant industrial place. It that's the case, do we want the most technologically advanced steam city in the world to be in that agrarian, northern territory? It seems like we have to draw the North/South line at the Norton, C.E., so should we move Firstport down south? That would place the Old World continent further south, which is fine with me. It's actually kind of interesting to think of the Imperials as being darker-skinned.

We actually haven't covered that area of American mythology yet, although Norton, C.E. actually fits the bill in terms of relative proximity to the area. Also, it feels like we need another city, farther south, on one of the two peninsulas near the mouth of the gulf. If we end up implementing that, that would be the perfect place for southeast US myths and stuff.

We haven't worked on several of the cultures, in part because we haven't been working on the project for all that long, and also because we haven't had a whole lot of really cool info. I'll definitely check out your stuff, though if the aforementioned North/South switch is what we settle on, then the SE Natives will basically be extinct, with only their memories remaining.

Here's a thought:
Mountain Tribes have protected their land by agreeing to let the Empire establish three trade routes through it. They are known as dangerous passes, where Mountain Rebels can descend with death and plunder. The region itself has a high instance of illegal mining, though the Mountain Natives are unable to stop them. Makes for an interesting twist on the reservation story.

Whaddaya think?

Landis963

2012-02-27, 12:08 AM

I love it! Keeping the players guessing is a wonderful thing.

My idea was that, since this is explicitly a mental construct of an insane psychic, there would be no reason to keep things consistent from visit to visit. Glad you all like it.

Great map, Ninja! I like it!

Firstport is the city to the West, roughly on a level with Mahigan. I figured the other four cities were just for us to develop when we felt like it.

It's kind of... isolated from the other cities, isn't it? I mean, it'd be a nice twist on real life if Firstport got a lot of influence from San Bernardo instead of , y'know, a Philadelphia analogue (on that note, are we using Amicafrater, or whatever name it's going by? The discussion on it kind of petered out before we decided anything), but given that the treacherous mountain passes are between them and the empire proper, there wouldn't be a lot of technological advancement. Which might in fact be OK, it just wouldn't be quite the cultural hub that we kind of expect a New York expy to be.

A southern city would be perfect. One thing I'm noticing, though: we had talked about the North being the ones who were the defeated agrarian society, and the South being the triumphant industrial place.

I must have missed that discussion, but it makes for a very nice twist on RL history.

It that's the case, do we want the most technologically advanced steam city in the world to be in that agrarian, northern territory? It seems like we have to draw the North/South line at the Norton, C.E., so should we move Firstport down south? That would place the Old World continent further south, which is fine with me. It's actually kind of interesting to think of the Imperials as being darker-skinned.

Actually, we could move it closer to the mouth of the gulf, and then use the SE stuff that Fiori was talking about earlier as a basis for fleshing it out. I actually like that Imperials being dark-skinned idea a lot.

We haven't worked on several of the cultures, in part because we haven't been working on the project for all that long, and also because we haven't had a whole lot of really cool info. I'll definitely check out your stuff, though if the aforementioned North/South switch is what we settle on, then the SE Natives will basically be extinct, with only their memories remaining.

:smallamused: I think I have an idea about where they went. Three words: Death by flood.

Here's a thought:
Mountain Tribes have protected their land by agreeing to let the Empire establish three trade routes through it. They are known as dangerous passes, where Mountain Rebels can descend with death and plunder. The region itself has a high instance of illegal mining, though the Mountain Natives are unable to stop them. Makes for an interesting twist on the reservation story.

Whaddaya think?

First, I think that's a great idea, especially since their land wouldn't be wanted for settlements, so much as it would be wanted for mining. That would lead to corporate interests from, say, Firstport trying to widen the pass so that they can gain access to a diggable spot for ore.

Second, I think the server derped and gave you a new post when you wanted an edit. :smalltongue:

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-27, 01:42 AM

It actually doesn't really matter what it was inspired by, it's a good idea either way. I notice on the map you have San Bernardo floating over two city markers. Maybe a pet project of Tokarev's is a grand archway or bridge connecting the two, as a sort of vanity project. Or maybe a similar bridge was destroyed in the earthquake, and Tokarev is making it self-repairing, or something.

Exactly what I was getting at. Maybe he'll call it Steamgate Bridge. Since the Goldengate bridge was built in 1933 (thank you Wiki), I think Tokarev should be building an entirely new bridge, rather than fix an old one. With SCIENCE!

Firstport is the city to the West, roughly on a level with Mahigan. I figured the other four cities were just for us to develop when we felt like it.

A southern city would be perfect. One thing I'm noticing, though: we had talked about the North being the ones who were the defeated agrarian society, and the South being the triumphant industrial place. It that's the case, do we want the most technologically advanced steam city in the world to be in that agrarian, northern territory? It seems like we have to draw the North/South line at the Norton, C.E., so should we move Firstport down south? That would place the Old World continent further south, which is fine with me. It's actually kind of interesting to think of the Imperials as being darker-skinned.

I put down the blank stars just for the sake of filling in an empty map. I can edit/delete/rename them as needed since everything's on layers instead of it all being one picture. I actually forgot Firstport. Oops. But since you want it moved south of CE, the star level with Mahigan could just be some other city. Like Richmond. Actually, that might work, especially if during the Civil War we want to keep the capitols near each other like in RL.

I can get down with making the Imperials dark-skinned. It certainly shakes things up. Are the Natives going to be lighter though?

Here's a thought:
Mountain Tribes have protected their land by agreeing to let the Empire establish three trade routes through it. They are known as dangerous passes, where Mountain Rebels can descend with death and plunder. The region itself has a high instance of illegal mining, though the Mountain Natives are unable to stop them. Makes for an interesting twist on the reservation story.

Awesome. Actually, I seem to remember hearing in a history class that some Indian tribes (I swear Apache, but don't quote me) did just this. They told white settlers that if they stuck to the road (literally in many cases) then there would be no trouble...from them. Lots of good plot from this idea.

It's kind of... isolated from the other cities, isn't it? I mean, it'd be a nice twist on real life if Firstport got a lot of influence from San Bernardo instead of , y'know, a Philadelphia analogue (on that note, are we using Amicafrater, or whatever name it's going by? The discussion on it kind of petered out before we decided anything), but given that the treacherous mountain passes are between them and the empire proper, there wouldn't be a lot of technological advancement. Which might in fact be OK, it just wouldn't be quite the cultural hub that we kind of expect a New York expy to be.

Moving Firstport south of CE would probably alleviate it's isolation. Again, I just put down stars to fill up the map.

Actually, we could move it closer to the mouth of the gulf, and then use the SE stuff that Fiori was talking about earlier as a basis for fleshing it out. I actually like that Imperials being dark-skinned idea a lot.
... :smallamused: I think I have an idea about where they went. Three words: Death by flood.

Why do I wanna have Firstport built atop the cursed remnants of the Roanoak Settlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roanoke_Colony) now?

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-27, 08:49 AM

ARGH! I said West when I meant East! Firstport is EAST of Mahigan. I've been mixing that up too much lately... Also, I "Firstport" was our name for the Philly/New York hybrid?

Just to clarify, when I was "darker-skinned," I'm still envisioning a fair bit of a spectrum. Certainly, I think having black Imperials is a cool idea, but I'm picturing everything from "Mediterranean Tanned" to "Middle-Eastern" to "Darkest Africa" brand skin tones.

Building Firstport atop the Roanoke Settlement would be AWESOME. A perfect excuse to invoke the "ruined city-beneath-a-city" trope.

Landis963

2012-02-27, 12:50 PM

Exactly what I was getting at. Maybe he'll call it Steamgate Bridge. Since the Goldengate bridge was built in 1933 (thank you Wiki), I think Tokarev should be building an entirely new bridge, rather than fix an old one. With SCIENCE!

I still think it should be made self-repairing in some way, or at least that's what Tokarev should be going for.

I put down the blank stars just for the sake of filling in an empty map. I can edit/delete/rename them as needed since everything's on layers instead of it all being one picture. I actually forgot Firstport. Oops. But since you want it moved south of CE, the star level with Mahigan could just be some other city. Like Richmond. Actually, that might work, especially if during the Civil War we want to keep the capitols near each other like in RL.

Richmond might work over there by San Bernardo, actually.

I can get down with making the Imperials dark-skinned. It certainly shakes things up. Are the Natives going to be lighter though?

I'll leave that to Zap, not least because this is a rhetorical minefield waiting to happen.

Awesome. Actually, I seem to remember hearing in a history class that some Indian tribes (I swear Apache, but don't quote me) did just this. They told white settlers that if they stuck to the road (literally in many cases) then there would be no trouble...from them. Lots of good plot from this idea.

Ooh, yeah, smuggling ore out of the area, random encounters from either wild animals (if the PCs complied) or from tribesmen (if they didn't), escorting a wagon train...

Moving Firstport south of CE would probably alleviate it's isolation. Again, I just put down stars to fill up the map.

Apparently, as per Zap, Firstport is on the other side of the continent, at that small promontory a little bit below Mahigan's level.

Why do I wanna have Firstport built atop the cursed remnants of the Roanoak Settlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roanoke_Colony) now?

Ooh, there's a nice idea.

ARGH! I said West when I meant East! Firstport is EAST of Mahigan. I've been mixing that up too much lately... Also, I "Firstport" was our name for the Philly/New York hybrid?

Good thing you mentioned that. We were all set to have Firstport having very close relations with San Bernardo. Also, Firstport was a Philly/New York hybrid, now that I think about it.

Just to clarify, when I was "darker-skinned," I'm still envisioning a fair bit of a spectrum. Certainly, I think having black Imperials is a cool idea, but I'm picturing everything from "Mediterranean Tanned" to "Middle-Eastern" to "Darkest Africa" brand skin tones.

Wasn't the Old World filled with vampires? I'm liking the idea of dark-skinned vamps coming into Coterois, and finding that, just like home, they blend in almost perfectly.

Building Firstport atop the Roanoke Settlement would be AWESOME. A perfect excuse to invoke the "ruined city-beneath-a-city" trope.

Would the inhabitants know about the cursed ruins right under their feet?

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-27, 02:42 PM

On Skin Color: I'm always really careful when I invoke actual human races in campaign settings. I think the Natives should be just like normal Native Americans, and maybe the Old World should be more unified than in life. Either that, or there's no clear north-south dominance over there (as was the case with Europe and Africa), so all the various ethnicities get along just fine.

On Firstport: Now that I think about it, I like the idea of Firstport remaining at its current location, East and a little South of Mahigan. With the current configuration of states (which I have no intention to change... thanks Ninja!) "The Industrial South" seems a little paltry, with the three states to its name. It makes for an interesting "we're THAT good" story, but I'd rather it be a little bigger. With that in mind, let's assume that the two states above Norton (the small one directly above and the one containing Firstport) also declared for the South. That way, Firstport is right on the front lines of the war effort, which would give Dr. Steam an even bigger reason to churn out weapons and technology for the war effort.

I think we can still work out the Roanoke thing without relocating the city, though. In my mind, the ruins underneath the city would be kind of like the public perception of the sewers in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Sure, everyone knows the ruins are there, but they don't know that there are levels upon levels, huge vaulted ceilings, and sentient beings down there. As far as the public is concerned, there are a few dinky sites under the city that are interesting to archaeologists and kids trying to scare each other, but not anyone else.

Other Updates: I feel like we've got a good bit of information on these topics, and we might be ready to move on. I'm at work right now, otherwise I'd collate what we've done in the past page or so, look at the rest of what we have, and jot down a list of what needs work next. Expect that sometime tonight, though it may not be until late.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-27, 04:37 PM

I still think it should be made self-repairing in some way, or at least that's what Tokarev should be going for.

The whole structure of the Bridge could be constantly built and rebuilt by a swarm of steam-powered robot-bees. Maintenance is constantly kept up around the clock.

Richmond might work over there by San Bernardo, actually.

Huh. Why do you say that, exactly? In RL, DC and Richmond were very close together. I feel if we lose that, then some of the tension of the Civil War (also need a name for this war) might be lost.

On Firstport: Now that I think about it, I like the idea of Firstport remaining at its current location, East and a little South of Mahigan. With the current configuration of states (which I have no intention to change... thanks Ninja!) "The Industrial South" seems a little paltry, with the three states to its name. It makes for an interesting "we're THAT good" story, but I'd rather it be a little bigger. With that in mind, let's assume that the two states above Norton (the small one directly above and the one containing Firstport) also declared for the South. That way, Firstport is right on the front lines of the war effort, which would give Dr. Steam an even bigger reason to churn out weapons and technology for the war effort.

I like this idea. Then Tokarev will be in a situation like The Siege of Petersburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Petersburg ) during the civil war. We can also through in some Stalingrad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad ) for good measure. I've updated the earlier map on this page to show Firstport where I think we've decided on putting it.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-27, 06:04 PM

Landis963

2012-02-27, 07:02 PM

The whole structure of the Bridge could be constantly built and rebuilt by a swarm of steam-powered robot-bees. Maintenance is constantly kept up around the clock.

The "hives" of the robot workers are partially underwater, so they can draw from the ocean between the two halves of the city.

Huh. Why do you say that, exactly? In RL, DC and Richmond were very close together. I feel if we lose that, then some of the tension of the Civil War (also need a name for this war) might be lost.

Because if Richmond is a strait away from one of the weaker cities of the Empire, that might provide an impetus to try a sneak attack from there, to take the opposing capitol and force a surrender. I will admit that I'm not entirely clear on where exactly the battle lines would be drawn.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-27, 07:32 PM

Just some things I noticed:

I like the name "Achalka" better than "Alchalka."

Let's get rid of those eastern islands before I get a hankering to start developing an island culture. :smalltongue: I think it's okay to keep the smaller islands directly south of Coterois' swamp state, but everything East of that should go.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/Murkapol2.jpg

I kept the largest of the islands east of the Coterois Divide [tm] because I thought if we ever needed a Cuba stand-in, it's already similarly shaped. In RL, Cuba was 1) A Spanish colony we had a lot of sympathy towards when it was fighting for independence, 2) A fondly thought of semi-colony from who we stole all their rights of sovereignty, and 3) A somewhat bitter enemy due to mutual betrayals of trust and affection. In essence, Cuba was USA's little kid brother. Picked on, but still liked up until the kid got sick of the torment.

Because if Richmond is a strait away from one of the weaker cities of the Empire, that might provide an impetus to try a sneak attack from there, to take the opposing capitol and force a surrender. I will admit that I'm not entirely clear on where exactly the battle lines would be drawn.

To be fair, that's exactly what happened in RL. The entire Eastern Theatre was basically, “Hey, we're spitting distance from those chumps over in DC/Richmond. Let's get 'em!” Then the gigantic well-armed militaries would stumble into one another and wait to fire their super-lethal rifles and repeaters until they were in literal spitting distance of each other.

I'm also unclear to the actual battle lines since we haven't developed the Imperial Civil War all too much yet.

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-27, 10:59 PM

So I updated the OP to include the cities of Platarena and New Bernardo, and also added a blurb for the Place of the Gods (and just noticed the typo "palace" on the map).

At this point, I think there are a few things we could do:

Develop History: We could put stuff on a timeline of, say, the past 100 years. That's probably about how old the Empire is.
Develop the Natives: Our foundation is hewn from granite and polished marble, but our structure is only a lean-to thus far.
Stat up some Monsters: 1-2-3NOT IT! :smalltongue:
Plot Hooks: Have you guys seen the Nation of the Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38868) project? I won't make a reanimation joke, but it's back after almost a year of downtime. Impressive stuff. I like the inclusion of plot hooks.

I feel like there's more to work on, but I've stretched myself a little thin, and it is Monday. Gumption is at a temporary low, but gimme a few days and we'll have this baby screaming again.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-27, 11:10 PM

So I updated the OP to include the cities of Platarena and New Bernardo, and also added a blurb for the Place of the Gods (and just noticed the typo "palace" on the map).

That was a typo? I thought it was always Palace of the Gods. Like, the Boradoans were guarding some sort of giant structure left behind by the aliens that they call a Palace. Well...shucks. :smallfrown:

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-28, 10:20 AM

I'd imagine there is a palace at the site, but there's a lot more than that, too. Even then, it's not unrealistic to refer to an entire complex of buildings by the central, prominent building there. "Palace of the Old Gods" it is!

Omeganaut

2012-02-28, 11:52 AM

Zap Dynamic

2012-02-28, 12:39 PM

Your victorious power is still rather small. As I see it, there are two ways in which to fix the problem. First of all, make the states west of the mountains anti-slavery and pro-union. The west historical remained true to the Union, and I say that should be reflected. Secondly, it was the industrialized cities and the small independent farmers that were for freedom because it did not hurt their economy. With the new dynamic, farmers will still want to be rid of the slavery, so much of the more rural areas will probably turn out for abolition.

A few other notes: Tree Island should have some of Independence in it. By that I mean it should be an important jumping-off point for the analogue of the Oregon Trail through the native-infested mountains. Another thing, I'd let the more western areas be territories instead of states. Maybe two or three west of the mountains, and have another two or three large areas east of the mountains that are not yet states. Statehood did not fully extend to all the continental states until around 1900, and thought we were pitching most of this setting earlier than that.

Independence is a good element to add, but I wonder if it shouldn't be a little bit further East. Maybe even in Mahigan? My reasoning is that if someone wants to go through the mountains, then Tree Island is where you'll have to go first. However, if someone wants to get anywhere in the West, you're most likely to start out in Mahigan. Thoughts?

As far as the war is concerned, I was thinking much the same thing. To visualize what I'm thinking, let's consider the Western mountains to be a dividing line. Take everything East of that (the bulk of the Empire), and divide it in half. In my mind, the only places that are states are in that Easternmost section, with everything else being larger territories at this point.

I imagined that the territories wouldn't concern themselves much. I'm not student of the Civil War, but it seems that past a certain point (Missouri? Eastern Kansas?) most people were concerned with more immediate things than a war going on back in the States. Is this accurate? Even if it's not, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the folks that lived between the States and the Mountains were too concerned with the guerrilla Native attacks that we mentioned earlier to contribute much of their own forces to the cause. Likewise, there is no shortage of hooks etc. that would keep a person in the far West from coming back to fight in the war--unless it was something they were truly passionate about.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-02-28, 08:19 PM

As far as the war is concerned, I was thinking much the same thing. To visualize what I'm thinking, let's consider the Western mountains to be a dividing line. Take everything East of that (the bulk of the Empire), and divide it in half. In my mind, the only places that are states are in that Easternmost section, with everything else being larger territories at this point.

I'd say Mahigan is just about on the edge of the 'States' proper. Mahigan's state is the westernmost state save for Coterois' and San Bernardo (remember, RL California was made a state early in 1849 due to it's strategic location as well as resources, including gold). The states around that second Northern Gulf (the westernish one) are considered new states, but everything west of that is still territories. See example:

Example (probably should have used better colors, but oh well.)
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/murkapolterritories.jpg

I imagined that the territories wouldn't concern themselves much. I'm not student of the Civil War, but it seems that past a certain point (Missouri? Eastern Kansas?) most people were concerned with more immediate things than a war going on back in the States. Is this accurate? Even if it's not, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the folks that lived between the States and the Mountains were too concerned with the guerrilla Native attacks that we mentioned earlier to contribute much of their own forces to the cause. Likewise, there is no shortage of hooks etc. that would keep a person in the far West from coming back to fight in the war--unless it was something they were truly passionate about.

For wonderful information on the war, I'd suggest Ken Burn's The Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Civil_War_(TV_series)). It's easily the best around if you've got a spare 15+ hours. From what little I know, the Western Territories in RL actually had a lot of battles during the war, just nowhere near the scale of the Eastern Theatre. Miners in California would break up their gold claims into sides for and against the Union and fight it out. The last battle of the war technically occurred in Texas, with a Confederate victory of all things. So, I'd say a similar thing would happen in this world. Basically, small-scale skirmishes would break out here and there. Sometimes in towns, sometimes in the field where a few hundred soldiers on some sort of long patrol would crash into each other. Regardless, the scale is local, nothing like the major battles taking place elsewhere.

For hooks, each side is courting a Native tribe to ally. One side is hiring like mad for guerrilla operations in the wilderness. One or both sides have accidentally awakened a slumbering monster and they must put aside their differences to defeat it. A town wants nothing to do with the war, but that means soldiers have no problem with raiding their food stores to deny them to the enemy.

Omeganaut

2012-02-29, 04:10 PM

In the real civil war, there were smaller skirmishes in the west, mostly in New Mexico. There was also a small campaign against the Sioux in the Minnesota and the Dakotas who were riled up by Confederate agents and the usual complaints about greedy whites. Other than that, almost all the soldiers stationed out west went east to fight in the war. In fact, most of the generals on both sides involved in Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg served together in California right before the war. That leads me to add that a big part of the mythos of the Civil war is that friends and family often fought each other due to their other loyalties and ideologies. It was probably the last truly personal war where each side knew the other well.

As for Mahigan being the starting point, if settlers would want to go there, most would continue by boat to the westernmost point of that gulf (in fact, maybe you need a town there as well, it could be a boom town with rumors of gold in the hills guarded by outlaws and monsters, and ghost towns destroyed by mysterious circumstances). They could also set off from that last town further north, which makes more sense if they were to be coming from those more northern cities.

Landis963

2012-02-29, 06:12 PM

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-01, 02:35 AM

Looking at the map, it strikes me that the only reasons the mountains would be attempted at all would be a) to find gold/ores/what have you or b) to avoid the state where Coterois is. Or maybe c) it's shorter. Otherwise, they can just go directly to the south of the mountain range and slip into the more western territories that way. Of course, this would suit the mountain natives just fine, as it means fewer people trying to get into the west via their territory.

Hmmm. Well, the area below the mountains (judging by the geographic map) is basically a set of rivers and the southern desert. Seems like there'd be little reason to go through the mountains rather than around them through this means. Perhaps it really is faster, just not for anyone heading to an area directly on the western side of the range. Travel times being what they are in a society just entering an industrial era (it takes a while to lay down railroad tracks, no matter how easily Dr Steam may have invented the train), traveling to the northwestern territories could be a matter of months if one goes around the mountains, but only weeks if they brave the mountain passes.

Landis963

2012-03-01, 03:03 AM

Hmmm. Well, the area below the mountains (judging by the geographic map) is basically a set of rivers and the southern desert. Seems like there'd be little reason to go through the mountains rather than around them through this means. Perhaps it really is faster, just not for anyone heading to an area directly on the western side of the range. Travel times being what they are in a society just entering an industrial era (it takes a while to lay down railroad tracks, no matter how easily Dr Steam may have invented the train), traveling to the northwestern territories could be a matter of months if one goes around the mountains, but only weeks if they brave the mountain passes.

That makes sense. Slower-but-safer (the southern route) contrasted with faster-but-riskier (the mountain pass). Also, maybe stuff coming out of Coterois is more dangerous for the average homesteader than for the people who actually want to go to Coterois.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-01, 10:17 AM

I think these are all good points.

Omeganaut, I had worried a little bit about the Western arm of the gulf much earlier, but I got focused on other projects and forgot about it. I agree that it seems like the obvious method of travel to reach the West. One potentially easy way to make it more dangerous is to introduce pirates. That's hearkening back to an earlier age, but I think steampunk and pirates go together pretty well. The Natives wouldn't head out onto the Gulf, what with their fear of Lake Monsters and all, otherwise they could have their own Navy and harry travelers heading West.

Landis and Ninja, while I agree that the more interesting, fertile land lies immediately West of the Mountains, I think that river area just south of them would also be a tempting place for settlers. Maybe the Mountain Natives hold that area fiercely as well, and have the aid of some kind of creature/faction?

Omeganaut

2012-03-01, 11:14 AM

The pirates seem like they would operate more out of the swampy land near Coterois. If they had bases in the gulf, the Imperial army would be able to capture those bases and wipe them out, and the navy could help. If you doubt the early navy's efficiency, look up the war between the U.S. and the Barbary Pirates. The small American navy won thanks to our superior ship design.

I'd say you should join the territory controlled by the Mountain natives to the Gulf, making that land more mountainous and preventing much imperial settlement off of the coast itself. Nuevo Borado could very well send raiders into that area as well to harass travelers, although those raiders would not be official in any sense of the term (perhaps insert a Poncho Villa character here as a potential villain)

Landis963

2012-03-01, 01:34 PM

Landis and Ninja, while I agree that the more interesting, fertile land lies immediately West of the Mountains, I think that river area just south of them would also be a tempting place for settlers. Maybe the Mountain Natives hold that area fiercely as well, and have the aid of some kind of creature/faction?

Actually, I can think of a great idea why people wouldn't settle there: overpopulation. That river area, assuming a slightly suboptimal fertility area (compared with the region directly next to the mountains, which would be optimal) would probably be filled with settlers willing to settle for someplace worse than the coveted jewel of the mountains (and for those not foolhardy enough to take the mountain pass, a months-long relocation would probably serve to wear on them signficantly). Thus, settlers would arrive, see that the suboptimal area is taken, and then fan out in a northwesterly direction from there.

Also, that river area south of the mountains is perfect for brigands' secret hideouts, as Omeganaut mentioned, meaning that thieves and scoundrels of all sorts would be using it as turf. Of course, you can make that area mountainous as well, but in order to keep the map realistic, you should probably add some islands, or at least a peninsula to the end extending into the gulf. I would not recommend that because that makes that area of the gulf rather cramped.

Omeganaut

2012-03-01, 07:16 PM

There is another person doing an American setting, although he is taking a different approach. The thread is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234084) I also referenced this thread on that one.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-01, 07:32 PM

Also, that river area south of the mountains is perfect for brigands' secret hideouts, as Omeganaut mentioned, meaning that thieves and scoundrels of all sorts would be using it as turf. Of course, you can make that area mountainous as well, but in order to keep the map realistic, you should probably add some islands, or at least a peninsula to the end extending into the gulf. I would not recommend that because that makes that area of the gulf rather cramped.

It would be a lot simpler to say that there are bandits and pirates and such, rather than make me fix the map again :smallfrown:. That said, a fertile region under near-constant occupation by pirates and the like isn't enough to drive settlers totally away. What if the river are south of the mountains was damaged? Maybe Dr Steam had an industrial accident (a magic spill for instance) that renders the region less fertile than it would otherwise be.

There is another person doing an American setting, although he is taking a different approach. The thread is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234084) I also referenced this thread on that one.

Eerie. What are the odds?

Did a quick map, just as a test to see what the Imperial Civil War would look like. Also, idea for the name of the war: The Kinstrife.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/MurkaStatesandTerr.jpg

Landis963

2012-03-01, 08:17 PM

It would be a lot simpler to say that there are bandits and pirates and such, rather than make me fix the map again :smallfrown:. That said, a fertile region under near-constant occupation by pirates and the like isn't enough to drive settlers totally away. What if the river are south of the mountains was damaged? Maybe Dr Steam had an industrial accident (a magic spill for instance) that renders the region less fertile than it would otherwise be.

The RL Tesla had a working lab and experiments in Colorado Springs (dramatized and expanded upon in The Prestige, among others), maybe we could have Tokarev's off-site laboratory there, where he worked on the really out-there stuff (e.g. the self-repairing bridge powered by steam-powered bees). Jameson could be willfully ignorant of the stuff that goes on out there, although once the various projects get past proof-of-concept he might start on making them more reliable, safer, more marketable, etc. in Firstport. Why don't we have an experiment (or several) with the spells Tokarev encountered in the construction of the Sunken Quarter get out and start wreaking havoc in that area of countryside?

Did a quick map, just as a test to see what the Imperial Civil War would look like. Also, idea for the name of the war: The Kinstrife.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/MurkaStatesandTerr.jpg

First off, good name. Second off, I noticed you had Coterois as a rebellious state, and furthermore, that you had it essentially cut off from the other rebellious states (agents would need to cover quite a lot of ground by foot in order to transmit messages either way). Why would Coterois be considered a rebel state, out of curiosity?

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-01, 09:30 PM

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-02, 01:48 AM

Also looking at the geographic map, it seems odd that the Mountain Natives have so much land West of the mountains. Shouldn't their territory be further East?

That's just me not gauging exactly while drawing up the map. New version upcoming.

The Kinstrife: Perfect name. :smallsmile:

I feel like those three red states in the Northwest corner of the cluster should be blue. I don't have such a problem with one side having much greater access to land than the other.

Also, I thought we had talked about Coterois being neutral? I suppose the city itself could be neutral while the state could pick a side, but now I'm just trying to remember what we had talked about, and I'm too lazy to go looking back through the thread. :smalltongue:

I'm gonna update the map. Looking at it today I have no idea what I was thinking. The Western Coastal cities were supposed to be Loyalist, while I thought the more inland areas would be secessionist. It's partly just a trend I decided to experiment with, partly an observation of my home-state. The coastal cities are vastly different in culture from the inland cities. I think I'll switch some of them to Neutral/No Majority for the time being.

Here now. A much better map. It actually shares dimensions with the Geographic now. Huzzah! Also, Kinstrife Map.

Better map!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/PolFinal1.jpg
Kinstrife
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/KinstrifeFinal1.jpg

Landis963

2012-03-02, 02:31 AM

OK! Let's see what we can work out.

The Pass Between the Mountains and The Sea: I had been looking at the political map, but now that I look back at the geographic map in the OP, I see that the mountains do in fact push almost all the way to the coast. That peninsula that juts out could very easily be an area controlled by the Mountain Natives, and seaborn travel or the slow path through the mountains could easily be the only ways to get to the West.

That makes sense. Mountain life is not that conducive to grouped settlements unless they are rough-hewn out of the cliff face or adaptations of existing caves, and even then reliable sources of water and food are necessary.

Also looking at the geographic map, it seems odd that the Mountain Natives have so much land West of the mountains. Shouldn't their territory be further East?

:smallconfused: Is this another west/east mixup? Because from Ninja's answer and subsequent map fix it sounds like it is.

As far as pirates are concerned, I think it would be easy enough for them to have secret bases. Especially with steampunk (floating island of metal that stays aloft by gathering moisture from clouds, anyone?). Maybe there's a place, Pirate's Plunder (name pending), that's a huge cave in the midst of a bunch of large, hard-to-navigate rocks. No one has been able to figure out a way to assault it (yet), and the pirates gather there to discuss temporary treaties or whatever.

Why not a floating raft of dirigibles not unlike a more modular Castle Wulfenbach? That could be an excellent Blackbeard-stand-in's HQ, and falling-drop-pods/bathyspheres would be an excellent way for, say, Mahigan or Norton to be attacked ferociously and without warning. Also, it sounds like just the sort of thing Dr. Steam would think up, which suggests that a landbound raid on Steam's offsite facility recovered the plans for this nasty pirate boss.

Landis: I love the Colorado Springs idea. Keeping the "The Natives still hold that southern bit of land" idea intact, what if Tokarev built a steam fortress on top of one of the mountains (out of reach of the Mountain Natives) basically just say "Listen Natives, I can do whatever I want because I'm awesome."

The funny thing is, Norton can't do anything about it, even after the natives voice their complaints. Tokarev is just too valuable to the war effort to antagonize.

I'm gonna update the map. Looking at it today I have no idea what I was thinking. The Western Coastal cities were supposed to be Loyalist, while I thought the more inland areas would be secessionist. It's partly just a trend I decided to experiment with, partly an observation of my home-state. The coastal cities are vastly different in culture from the inland cities. I think I'll switch some of them to Neutral/No Majority for the time being.

Here now. A much better map. It actually shares dimensions with the Geographic now. Huzzah! Also, Kinstrife Map.

Better map!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/murkapoleditnames.jpg
Kinstrife
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/MurkaPolKinstrife.jpg

There was a mention of the natives getting that peninsula at the very southern end of their territory, will that be implemented?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-02, 02:45 AM

Why not a floating raft of dirigibles not unlike a more modular Castle Wulfenbach? That could be an excellent Blackbeard-stand-in's HQ, and falling-drop-pods/bathyspheres would be an excellent way for, say, Mahigan or Norton to be attacked ferociously and without warning. Also, it sounds like just the sort of thing Dr. Steam would think up, which suggests that a landbound raid on Steam's offsite facility recovered the plans for this nasty pirate boss.

Emphasis mine. I cannot describe the girlish squee sound I made when I read that. Too cool.

There was a mention of the natives getting that peninsula at the very southern end of their territory, will that be implemented?

Totally missed that. I'll update the maps toot sweet.

Edit: Tweaked! Putting them here too so no one has to go back.
Better map!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/PolFinal1.jpg
Kinstrife
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/KinstrifeFinal1.jpg

Landis963

2012-03-03, 02:12 AM

Emphasis mine. I cannot describe the girlish squee sound I made when I read that. Too cool.

What's more, once the drop pods were deployed (successfully, that is; their occupants inevitably died the first time around because the pirates didn't know how to work the controls/safety features, which the pirates only found out after the pods were found floating derelict in the upper atmosphere (a slowly inflating gas bag that takes in water particles and converts it to hydrogen gas brought it back up)), Dr. Steam would have been brought under fire for selling his tech to pirates. Ironically, only Jameson is on his side, as "Tokarev would never sell any of his tech if he could help it. He's honestly surprised his company is still afloat every morning, at least for the five minutes before he starts working on another of his steam-powered fever dreams."

EDIT: ...and it's not showing my post. SERVER!!!!!
EDIT2: Shiny and newly reposted. Hope this works.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-03, 02:40 AM

What's more, once the drop pods were deployed (successfully, that is; their occupants inevitably died the first time around because the pirates didn't know how to work the controls/safety features,

"My god! Those pirates are mad! They're throwing corpses at us!" :smallbiggrin:

And so the Imperial Midwest is dominated by Skypirates? Awesome-sauce. One of them should definitely have a... particular accent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZtTjMRxWRM). :smallbiggrin:

Landis963

2012-03-03, 03:59 AM

"My god! Those pirates are mad! They're throwing corpses at us!" :smallbiggrin:

Remember the pirates don't know how to use the safety features on drop pods, which were released from the upper atmosphere...

"My god, those pirates are mad! They're throwing tomato sauce at us! :smallbiggrin: :smalleek: Wait..."

And so the Imperial Midwest is dominated by Skypirates? Awesome-sauce. One of them should definitely have a... particular accent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZtTjMRxWRM). :smallbiggrin:

:smallamused: Hehehe. Also, I believe I mentioned gas bags that deployed from the pods after landing? That's purely to conserve resources (and manpower), I don't know if that would be practical. Also, I'm unsure as to when exactly Tokarev invented it (i.e. before or during the Kinstrife), and thus whether its intended use was as a vacation spot or as a floating weapon. If it's the former, then the gas bags are a purely pirate invention, as the pods would have been basically for use in a drastic emergency (i.e. "scuttle the castle" type situations), and one-use only. If the latter, than this was built into the design by Tokarev, in order to conserve the resources the army had.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-04, 03:41 AM

:smallamused: Hehehe. Also, I believe I mentioned gas bags that deployed from the pods after landing? That's purely to conserve resources (and manpower), I don't know if that would be practical. Also, I'm unsure as to when exactly Tokarev invented it (i.e. before or during the Kinstrife), and thus whether its intended use was as a vacation spot or as a floating weapon. If it's the former, then the gas bags are a purely pirate invention, as the pods would have been basically for use in a drastic emergency (i.e. "scuttle the castle" type situations), and one-use only. If the latter, than this was built into the design by Tokarev, in order to conserve the resources the army had.

I can see Tokarev inventing this prior to the Kinstrife as a massive "Flying City" ala Bioshock Infinite. His original intention was to build this vast Steam City in order to relieve the congestion he saw in Firstport, but he (naturally) forgot just how big the frontiers were. Once he built the flying city in Firstport Bay and lifted off, he took the thing on a grand tour of the states. He built the drop-pods in order for people to come and go, even if they didn't have the money to purchase a personal "Whirligig", one of his more mass-produced flying machines. The gas bags would convert the air around the pod into its component parts upon landing. This cause several people to "drown" as the air was still technically being ripped apart molecule by molecule, even inside their lungs (Jameson added special gasmasks for occupants when he saw the oversight). The oxygen is drawn into the gas pods where it is mixed with super-compacted hydrogen, making water, which is then flash-vaporized into steam, which achieves lift.

Of course, once Tokarev noticed how bloody big the Empire's expanses were he realized that congestion wouldn't be a problem for hundreds of years, at least. So he abandoned the project somewhere over the West and never looked back. As in, literally never thought twice about leaving the most advanced piece of super-science and steam power just drifting over the country. He never even considered the military applications of the city, basically because as brilliant as he is, Dr Steam is hopelessly optimistic about people. He honestly cannot understand war, or why anybody would want one. During the Kinstrife many years later he performed brilliantly in creating warmachines and weapons for the army because, well, even if he didn't like it, he was damn good at making things that most people couldn't, or shouldn't, and talent was not a thing to be wasted.

Anyway, leaving the city drifting there apparently cause Jameson to have a coronary and burn all records of its existence, even managing to pull strings and destroy all public knowledge of it by means of burning newspapers, archives, even calling in favors from the government to declare knowledge of the project a national secret. The city remained in its idle state (no one told the people who went on the trip how to fly the damn thing, so they never left, except in the pods to collect food), until a band of the most ambitious pirates ever managed to take control. They've since used it to raid wherever they so pleased, whenever the mood took them. The people left on the city by Tokarev actually acclimated to the pirates surprisingly well, forming an entire community/economy driven through the loot and plunder the pirates bring back in. In all fairness, as long as you don't come laden with booty so as to attract the pirates' notice, the Steam City (Tokareville) is an ideal wretched hive of scum and villainy, perfect for illicit dealings and simple, honest gambling, mercenary work and prostitution. Think of it as Las Vegas, except flying, and powered by STEAM! :smalltongue:

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-04, 11:01 AM

The OP has been updated to include all three maps (Geographic, Political, and Kinstrife), and I've linked to the above post about Tokareville.

Before I say anything else, thank you so much Landis and Ninja for your help so far! You guys are great. :smallsmile:

Now then, I like what we've got so far. We've kind of dabbled in the Kinstrife and cities recently. Eventually, I want to get to the point where we've got Tokareville-esque descriptions of all the cities, but while I was looking at the OP I realized that we don't have a whole lot of info about the various religions in the setting. Here's what I think we've got to work with:

"Imperial" religion: By no means the official religion of the Empire, this is nevertheless the one that most Imperials worship. It focuses on light and daytime, and sprang up centuries ago as an organization opposed to the vampires in the East.
The Old Gods: The religion of Borado. Nuevo Borado follows the same gods, but their views are much more progressive.
Native Religion: Normally I'd say that each tribe/region should have their own religion, but because they're all united by the spiritual significance of the Western Mountains, I think they should at least be very similiar. Some kind of Earth goddess, the Thunderbird would make for a nice Sky God, then First Creator and Lone Man, for starters. Maybe the Ocean is the god of Lake Monsters, and is seen as evil?

I'll try to put together a pantheon for each of these later today.

Landis963

2012-03-04, 04:04 PM

One thing: I've figured out how to couch the "AC vs. DC" thing in steampunk terms. Tokarev likes Steam power (this would be the DC), while Jameson likes kinetic energy from clockwork (as AC). Note that the two affiliations are switched from RL.

I can see Tokarev inventing this prior to the Kinstrife as a massive "Flying City" ala Bioshock Infinite. His original intention was to build this vast Steam City in order to relieve the congestion he saw in Firstport, but he (naturally) forgot just how big the frontiers were. Once he built the flying city in Firstport Bay and lifted off, he took the thing on a grand tour of the states. He built the drop-pods in order for people to come and go, even if they didn't have the money to purchase a personal "Whirligig", one of his more mass-produced flying machines. The gas bags would convert the air around the pod into its component parts upon landing. This cause several people to "drown" as the air was still technically being ripped apart molecule by molecule, even inside their lungs (Jameson added special gasmasks for occupants when he saw the oversight). The oxygen is drawn into the gas pods where it is mixed with super-compacted hydrogen, making water, which is then flash-vaporized into steam, which achieves lift.

My original idea was that the drop pods served more of a lifeboat-esque purpose than general use transportation (they could very feasibly be dropped in the middle of nowhere, or the middle of the ocean, for example, which doesn't serve much of a practical purpose), although I do like the idea of Whirligig(tm) flying machines. I think those should be used for day-to-day surface-to-air transfer of goods, people, etc. However, this (the Whirligig) should be an invention of Jameson's, perhaps before he was assimilated into Steamlabs Inc. (that would be Tokarev's company. Or maybe it should be Tokarev Industries?) Back to the gas bags: I'm not sure that sort of conversion is even possible, or would be deterred by gas masks. However, I think that some sort of gas filter in the bags would suck in surrounding air, then divert, say, hydrogen or nitrogen into the bag itself. Research tells me that hydrogen and helium are the only gases in the air with sufficient lifting power to lift something such as a Tokareville drop pod, so naturally those would be the only ones that would be used. Of course, you could have a pilot light or something activate when the pod is told to go home (through some means, don't ask me how all these systems fit in there) and just use hot air.

Of course, once Tokarev noticed how bloody big the Empire's expanses were he realized that congestion wouldn't be a problem for hundreds of years, at least. So he abandoned the project somewhere over the West and never looked back. As in, literally never thought twice about leaving the most advanced piece of super-science and steam power just drifting over the country.

:smallbiggrin: Why is this guy so fun to write about?

Anyway, leaving the city drifting there apparently cause Jameson to have a coronary and burn all records of its existence, even managing to pull strings and destroy all public knowledge of it by means of burning newspapers, archives, even calling in favors from the government to declare knowledge of the project a national secret. The city remained in its idle state (no one told the people who went on the trip how to fly the damn thing, so they never left, except in the pods to collect food), until a band of the most ambitious pirates ever managed to take control.

Something tells me the people on there would mainly have been construction crews and engineers, since I don't think the city would have been formally unveiled yet. However, Jameson burning all records of its existence seems out of character for the professional Marty McFly we're making him out to be, and coronary heart attacks do not rapid motion induce. "stupidity-induced rage attack/psychotic break" seems the best bet, and Tokarev probably called in one of his many, many favors to have the resulting destruction covered up (and with it, the rest of the project). Also, in order to build the thing in the first place, there would need to be some flying machines beyond the drop pods, because of the previously mentioned unreliability in just dropping down to earth. One last thing: If Jameson contributed anything to this project, it would be steps to make it self-sufficient (roof gardens, windmill power generators), thus making trips down to the surface unnecessary at worst and simply correcting oversights at best.

They've since used it to raid wherever they so pleased, whenever the mood took them. The people left on the city by Tokarev actually acclimated to the pirates surprisingly well, forming an entire community/economy driven through the loot and plunder the pirates bring back in. In all fairness, as long as you don't come laden with booty so as to attract the pirates' notice, the Steam City (Tokareville) is an ideal wretched hive of scum and villainy, perfect for illicit dealings and simple, honest gambling, mercenary work and prostitution. Think of it as Las Vegas, except flying, and powered by STEAM! :smalltongue:

I think we've already got a Vegas, in Tree Island, but a flying Tortuga would be the perfect fit. (This would be the Tortuga as shown in Pirates of the Caribbean)

Before I say anything else, thank you so much Landis and Ninja for your help so far! You guys are great. :smallsmile:

De nada. Working on this has been really fun. :smallsmile:

"Imperial" religion: By no means the official religion of the Empire, this is nevertheless the one that most Imperials worship. It focuses on light and daytime, and sprang up centuries ago as an organization opposed to the vampires in the East.
The Old Gods: The religion of Borado. Nuevo Borado follows the same gods, but their views are much more progressive.
Native Religion: Normally I'd say that each tribe/region should have their own religion, but because they're all united by the spiritual significance of the Western Mountains, I think they should at least be very similiar. Some kind of Earth goddess, the Thunderbird would make for a nice Sky God, then First Creator and Lone Man, for starters. Maybe the Ocean is the god of Lake Monsters, and is seen as evil?

I'll try to put together a pantheon for each of these later today.

Should the Imperial religion be monotheistic? I mean, the easiest way to communicate the connection with daylight is to have a Sun God(dess), which might go a long way towards some common ground with both Nuevo and Viejo Borado, depending on what you decide about them. Also, much of the language we use to talk about the Christian god is couched in terms of light (the valley of the shadow of death, turning to His light, etc., etc.)

On the note of the Boradoans, It's logical to assume that they've mistaken the vanished crew members of the alien tech they live in/protect for gods, right? Which means that there needs to be, at the very least, a "Kirk", a "Spock", and a "McCoy" analogue, although they need not fit those characterizations or even those names. Also, there needs to be some way for the Boradoans to find out about these members of the crew, as it would be illogical to have the original crew members, to a man, have their portraits and names scrawled on the walls.

And as for the native religions, you can set up the basic framework very easily, with the Earth goddess equaling good, the Thunderbird ostensibly good in that he opposes evil in the form of the ocean, but without much regard for the Earth goddess' children, and the Ocean, as mentioned, being evil. First Creator and Lone Man can be otherwise neutral, or both can be evil, or whatever you decide. I'll admit I don't feel like looking back through the thread to see what we've decided about them.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-04, 04:35 PM

Before I say anything else, thank you so much Landis and Ninja for your help so far! You guys are great. :smallsmile:

Don't mention it. Like Landis said, this is a barrel of monkey fun. :smallbiggrin:

One thing: I've figured out how to couch the "AC vs. DC" thing in steampunk terms. Tokarev likes Steam power (this would be the DC), while Jameson likes kinetic energy from clockwork (as AC). Note that the two affiliations are switched from RL.

Although that does imply that clockpunk will be proven superior to steampunk. Oh well, doesn't need to be that accurate. Sounds good.

Something tells me the people on there would mainly have been construction crews and engineers, since I don't think the city would have been formally unveiled yet. However, Jameson burning all records of its existence seems out of character for the professional Marty McFly we're making him out to be, and coronary heart attacks do not rapid motion induce. "stupidity-induced rage attack/psychotic break" seems the best bet, and Tokarev probably called in one of his many, many favors to have the resulting destruction covered up (and with it, the rest of the project). Also, in order to build the thing in the first place, there would need to be some flying machines beyond the drop pods, because of the previously mentioned unreliability in just dropping down to earth. One last thing: If Jameson contributed anything to this project, it would be steps to make it self-sufficient (roof gardens, windmill power generators), thus making trips down to the surface unnecessary at worst and simply correcting oversights at best.
… I think we've already got a Vegas, in Tree Island, but a flying Tortuga would be the perfect fit. (This would be the Tortuga as shown in Pirates of the Caribbean)

The coronary was just hyperbole. I kinda see Jameson as the practical, but cynical partner to Tokarev's genius/madness and blind optimism. That's why I assumed he'd be the one to do the “practical” thing and cover up the fiasco that is Tokareville. I do like your idea on how Jameson added to the flying city. And your pointing out how it's closer to Tortuga is a much more apt description than I gave.

Should the Imperial religion be monotheistic? I mean, the easiest way to communicate the connection with daylight is to have a Sun God(dess), which might go a long way towards some common ground with both Nuevo and Viejo Borado, depending on what you decide about them. Also, much of the language we use to talk about the Christian god is couched in terms of light (the valley of the shadow of death, turning to His light, etc., etc.)

Actually, the Imperial Religion sounds a lot like the Enlightenment Movement. It has the same connotations, but with a more philosophical bent, much like the majority of the RL Founding Fathers. The Empire is founded, not by people who necessarily believe in a deity, but by people who believe in forthrightness, intellect, moral conduct in all things, and a belief that they are the grand experiment to disprove the ways held so strongly in the Old World. The “pantheon” (if such a term is accurate) would include the Four Saints, that is the four analogues to George Washington, Ben Franklin, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson, with a few minor ones thrown in. Despite this, the old Imperial faith should be founded more on ideals than anything else, with only a secondary focus on actual worship of beings. This faith is slowly being supplanted by a cult of hero-worship somewhat akin to the Great Awakening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Awakening ) in RL American history.

On the note of the Boradoans, It's logical to assume that they've mistaken the vanished crew members of the alien tech they live in/protect for gods, right? Which means that there needs to be, at the very least, a "Kirk", a "Spock", and a "McCoy" analogue, although they need not fit those characterizations or even those names. Also, there needs to be some way for the Boradoans to find out about these members of the crew, as it would be illogical to have the original crew members, to a man, have their portraits and names scrawled on the walls.

I love the Trinity you've got going, but I feel we can take it a step farther. For example, I think there should be a devil-figure, a “Janeway” if you will (perhaps I watch too much SF Debris?:smallamused:). As well, the Nuevo Boradoans might worship a particularly awesome war-god, ala “Sisko”:smalltongue:. We can have a lot of fun with this idea.

And as for the native religions, you can set up the basic framework very easily, with the Earth goddess equaling good, the Thunderbird ostensibly good in that he opposes evil in the form of the ocean, but without much regard for the Earth goddess' children, and the Ocean, as mentioned, being evil. First Creator and Lone Man can be otherwise neutral, or both can be evil, or whatever you decide. I'll admit I don't feel like looking back through the thread to see what we've decided about them.

I believe as to Lone Man and First Creator, we actually made them into another Tokarev and Jameson team. FC was a bit odd and fond of creating loads of new stuff without thought for the consequences, while Lone Man created things like Death and Entropy in order to alleviate some of the suffering FC would create by mistake. EX: First Creator would make Man and make him plentiful. Lone Man comes along and makes it so that Death exists to take away people after a while so they don't grow too plentiful and consume the entire world's resources and starve for eternity.

I find it kinda funny we have two such partnerships. Then again, partnerships have always been popular in America. See the Constitution for the best example of cooperation.

Landis963

2012-03-04, 05:17 PM

Although that does imply that clockpunk will be proven superior to steampunk. Oh well, doesn't need to be that accurate. Sounds good.

It doesn't have to be proven superior. I mean, both would be eventually supplanted by electricity anyway.

The coronary was just hyperbole. I kinda see Jameson as the practical, but cynical partner to Tokarev's genius/madness and blind optimism. That's why I assumed he'd be the one to do the “practical” thing and cover up the fiasco that is Tokareville. I do like your idea on how Jameson added to the flying city. And your pointing out how it's closer to Tortuga is a much more apt description than I gave.

Maybe they can both get in on that. The destruction caused in Jameson's rage and frustration would have been covered up by Tokarev (thus neatly but unintentionally suppressing most of the relevant plans), and once Jameson calmed down, he would have finished the job of covering up Tokareville because he realized the extent of the fiasco.

Actually, the Imperial Religion sounds a lot like the Enlightenment Movement. It has the same connotations, but with a more philosophical bent, much like the majority of the RL Founding Fathers. The Empire is founded, not by people who necessarily believe in a deity, but by people who believe in forthrightness, intellect, moral conduct in all things, and a belief that they are the grand experiment to disprove the ways held so strongly in the Old World. The “pantheon” (if such a term is accurate) would include the Four Saints, that is the four analogues to George Washington, Ben Franklin, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson, with a few minor ones thrown in. Despite this, the old Imperial faith should be founded more on ideals than anything else, with only a secondary focus on actual worship of beings. This faith is slowly being supplanted by a cult of hero-worship somewhat akin to the Great Awakening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Awakening ) in RL American history.

Sounds fair. I do like the idea of the Four Saints. However, who should be the targets, for lack of a better term, for the hero-worship cult?

I love the Trinity you've got going, but I feel we can take it a step farther. For example, I think there should be a devil-figure, a “Janeway” if you will (perhaps I watch too much SF Debris?:smallamused:). As well, the Nuevo Boradoans might worship a particularly awesome war-god, ala “Sisko”:smalltongue:. We can have a lot of fun with this idea.

The devil would probably be a "Q" analogue, as most of the relative power level between them would be lost to the sands of time.

I believe as to Lone Man and First Creator, we actually made them into another Tokarev and Jameson team. FC was a bit odd and fond of creating loads of new stuff without thought for the consequences, while Lone Man created things like Death and Entropy in order to alleviate some of the suffering FC would create by mistake. EX: First Creator would make Man and make him plentiful. Lone Man comes along and makes it so that Death exists to take away people after a while so they don't grow too plentiful and consume the entire world's resources and starve for eternity.

I find it kinda funny we have two such partnerships. Then again, partnerships have always been popular in America. See the Constitution for the best example of cooperation.

Actually, it really works well: FC&LM are the magical counterpart to Tokarev & Jameson. Although I'd like to think that FC includes LM in his creative process a bit earlier than Tokarev does Jameson (remember, Tokarev comes up with the projects, and Jameson doesn't see them until proof-of-concept). Also, LM, being a god himself, gets a few more projects than Jameson does.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-04, 06:44 PM

Maybe they can both get in on that. The destruction caused in Jameson's rage and frustration would have been covered up by Tokarev (thus neatly but unintentionally suppressing most of the relevant plans), and once Jameson calmed down, he would have finished the job of covering up Tokareville because he realized the extent of the fiasco.

That's a really good idea. It allows for a lot of personal interpretation in-universe for who exactly did the covering up (according to conspiracy theorists of course).

Sounds fair. I do like the idea of the Four Saints. However, who should be the targets, for lack of a better term, for the hero-worship cult?

Everyone we've come up with so far, or at least most of them. The idea is that people like Iron John, Concho Tex, Colonel Redfield, Mattimeo Potter and even Dr Tokarev himself are so inspirational to the people of the Empire that they are held in utter reverence by the populace. It's very American to hold historical figures in such reverence.

The devil would probably be a "Q" analogue, as most of the relative power level between them would be lost to the sands of time.

I always liked Q. Maybe the devil-figure for the Boradoans is more of a trickster than a malevolent force?

Actually, it really works well: FC&LM are the magical counterpart to Tokarev & Jameson. Although I'd like to think that FC includes LM in his creative process a bit earlier than Tokarev does Jameson (remember, Tokarev comes up with the projects, and Jameson doesn't see them until proof-of-concept). Also, LM, being a god himself, gets a few more projects than Jameson does.

It actually does sound to me that LM only comes around to proof-read FC as you said about Jameson and Tokarev. Still, it's a great thing we came up with by total coincidence. Maybe LM has the same blood pressure meds Jameson does? :smallwink: :smallamused:

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-04, 07:24 PM

The Old Gods
The Boradoans claim that their gods descended to the earth from a distant star. To hear them tell it, they have traversed the vastness of heaven for eternity, and have settled on five different worlds in total. Leadership amongst their gods forms a kind of cycle, where each new world is ruled by a different god, with the others serving as vassals and councilors.

Dark Mirror ruled during the First World. He is Lord of Darkness, Grand Sorcerer, Peerless Warrior, and is renowned as a trickster. He weaved many powerful spells for the Old Gods, and brought them to many victories over their enemies. The First World was a realm of unintelligent giants, and under his rule it was a twilight world of scheming and deception. In the end, it fell to ruin when he became too greedy, assumed the form of a huge jaguar, and swallowed the world whole.

Bright Dragon ruled during the Second World. He is the King of Dawn, Master Artisan, and Clarion King. Depending on the tale, Bright Dragon is either the twin brother of Dark Mirror, or sometimes they are merely different aspects of the same entity. Regardless of the interpretation, these two are chief amongst the Old Gods, and much of the holy texts of Borado speak of their conflict with one another.

Alone amongst the Old Gods, Bright Dragon is possessed of piercingly clear vision, and his rule is characterized by harmony and perfection. The Second World was a place of peace that was inhabited by humans, but it was destroyed by the third god, who conjured massive hurricanes and accidentally turned the humans into monkeys.

Blue Cloud is the name of the third god, who ruled over the Third World. He is a god of rain and life, and all things flower and bloom under his gaze. His world was a place of flying, birdlike humanoids, and he reigned for many cycles. At last, Dark Mirror stole Green Cloud's wife, Green Cloud withheld the rains in his fury, and the world became a vast desert. Bright Dragon commanded Green Cloud to make it rain, but Green Cloud rained fire in his rage, and the Third World came to an end.

Red Drill ruled the Fourth World. She is a god of knowledge and preservation. The Fourth World was covered in water to protect it from Blue Cloud's wrath, and was inhabited by fish men. Under her rule, it was a place of great knowledge, but there was no progress or development. In the end, the Old Gods grew weary of the stagnant world, and uniformly abandoned it.

Green Eyes, goddess of travel, the stars, and language, was the ruler of the current, Fifth World. She is a young goddess, with little experience in command, so her rule was heavily characterized by guidance from the other four gods. They arrived on this world in a great ball of flame, and settled their palaces in what became the southern desert of the New World. After planting the seed of life in this world, the Old Gods left to observe its progress from a distance. Green Eyes last gift to the Fifth World was the calendar, and the Boradoans use it to determine when the Old Gods will return.

The Devout contend that the trappings of the Old Gods must be protected and preserved, whereas the people of Nuevo Borado believe that the palaces and artifacts of the Old Gods are a gift meant to forge a kingdom that will rule the world until the Old Gods return. They are in constant conflict over these beliefs, though neither has been able to gain ground in the fighting.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-04, 07:43 PM

Soo... I typed all ^that^ up while you guys were back-and-forthing for the past three or so posts. :smalltongue: I took inspiration from the actual Aztec cosmology/pantheon, mixed in with a vague idea of Star Trek characters:

Bright Dragon: The Artsy, Brilliant Captain
Dark Mirror: The Science Officer/Q hybrid. I picture him being like Gary Oldman in the Lost in Space movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0-llt3anCA).
Blue Cloud: The Medical Officer
Red Drill: The Engineer
Green Eyes: The Navigator and Communications Officer

That the Old Gods were just aliens with really advanced technology is something I don't want the characters of the world to realize on any level. That said, it's still important to think of terms of those roles, so I tried to incorporate them.

The rest of your discussion:
Imperial Religion: I like the idea of the Four Saints, but it's absolutely critical that the Founding Fathers aren't deified. While it may be true that our own, real-world founding fathers are revered as though they're deities, they are not actually worshiped. I think the Four Saints idea is a homerun for the hero-cult thing, but it just can't be part of the religion practiced by most Imperials.

To weave that into the rest of the stuff you've got put together (which is great), here's what I propose. One of the core tenets of the religion is leaving the Old World to escape the vampire menace. The Founding Fathers--who went to church like every good citizen, but held decidedly Enlightened, "'God' is the power of nature etc."-style beliefs--used the tenet of escaping the Old World to their advantage. "Yes!" they said, "God wants us to escape the Old World and make the most of the New! And humanity must do its part to spread the light of wisdom [note: not God] across this land!"

Native Religion: That's a cool parallel that popped up! Radical!

That's all that I'll be able to get up tonight. Next I'll cook up some stuff from the anti-vampire Religion and Hero-Cult stuff.

Landis963

2012-03-05, 03:32 PM

I like the idea that each "god" was the ruler of a world before theirs. However, I'm not sure how the Boradoans got this idea without the "our gods are alien beings" penny dropping. Even if they only got hold of a highly corrupted and partially destroyed captain's log, how would they know that these were different worlds? I mean, the Viejo Boradoans would have known that their world was not only desert, because they were on the coast, and could feasibly have explored out to what is now the Coterois peninsula. Likewise, the Nuevo Boradoans would have known this from the less sandy portions of their nation. So why did they assume that these weren't parts of the same world, perhaps even the same world as their own? Furthermore, any proper nouns that made it through the corruption would have been transliterated syllable for syllable (maybe "data" or "spock" gets mistaken for "Red drill" or "Picard" or "kirk" gets mistaken for "bright dragon"), which explains the cast of characters, but why wouldn't they get pigeonholed into one role per name?

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-05, 06:50 PM

Good questions! Let me see if I can answer them.

First off, a whole lot of this stuff I borrowed from this page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AztecMythology) about Aztec mythology, so I'd recommend giving that a quick skim.

Taking your post point-by-point:

I'm not sure how the Boradoans got this idea without the "our gods are alien beings" penny dropping.
I imagine the ancient ancestors of the Boradoans actually interacted with these aliens, but the humans thought of the aliens as gods because of the radical disparity in power. Eventually the aliens left, and the humans went on telling the tales of the "gods" and their time on this planet. Thus, most of the information about "other worlds" comes from the lips of the aliens themselves.

...Viejo Boradoans would have known...Likewise, the Nuevo Boradoans would have known...
I think I addressed this above, but it's worth pointing out that--at the time these stories became a permanent part of their culture--the Boradoans were all united. It wasn't until much after the time when the Old Gods left that the Boradoans separated into their modern factions.

So why did they assume that these weren't parts of the same world, perhaps even the same world as their own?

It's possible that they did, even though the aliens were telling the story from their own mouths. Personally, I like the idea of the Boradoans believing in the existence of other planets (a belief that few/none of the other present ethnic groups are likely to share), and I think other theories have considerable weaknesses. For starters, I don't picture the proto-Boradoans having the intellect to conceive of a world that is as wide as this world actually is (Earth-size, fyi).

...why wouldn't [the gods] get pigeonholed into one role per name?

This is taken from the actual Aztec pantheon, as per that link up above. Most of these gods had a variety of things in their portfolio, and I just went ahead and preserved that for the Old Gods. It's definitely not necessary, but the meta-game explanation could be something like the aliens crash landed on this planet (and had all their conflict and blunders on the other worlds) because they're actually juvenile aliens that hijacked a ship or something. They've been learning with each new world, but they still have problems to deal with, as evidenced by the fact that they crashed into this planet. Of course, this is well beyond the knowledge of any human in the setting.

Also, I should mention that there are many, MANY more aliens that were on this planet besides the ones I mentioned. There are a LOT of spaceships at the Palace of the Gods, and a fair number at Platarena, too. The pantheon I created would be the "away team" that has all the adventures while all the drones see to the maintenance of the ship.

While we're talking about the aliens, I hadn't considered how they left this planet with their wrecked space ships. Maybe they actually died? Maybe they don't technically need their ships to leave the planet, aka teleportation or something? Maybe they never left, but they're actually asleep within the bowels of the Palace of the Gods? Maybe a lot of them died, the survivors salvaged parts from the fleet, and left in just a few ships, leaving their other wreckage behind?

Landis963

2012-03-05, 09:00 PM

Taking your post point-by-point:

I imagine the ancient ancestors of the Boradoans actually interacted with these aliens, but the humans thought of the aliens as gods because of the radical disparity in power. Eventually the aliens left, and the humans went on telling the tales of the "gods" and their time on this planet. Thus, most of the information about "other worlds" comes from the lips of the aliens themselves.

I assumed that they would be in some sort of dormant state and thus the only reason the Boradoans would know would be from some damaged PADD or something. Your method makes enough sense for it not to matter. Although It doesn't make sense that they would leave without taking their ship, which I think makes the idea that they are dormant inside the bowels of the ship most compelling. Unless of course they just beamed back or something. I suppose it also makes sense that the fact that they had physical bodies would be lost to myth or warped into tales of god's immoralities or something (if it worked for the Greeks...).

I think I addressed this above, but it's worth pointing out that--at the time these stories became a permanent part of their culture--the Boradoans were all united. It wasn't until much after the time when the Old Gods left that the Boradoans separated into their modern factions.

Right, whoops, should have caught that. Why don't we call the Borado nation under the golden age of the Old Gods Borado Mayor or Borado Major (with a y sound or a soft j)?

It's possible that they did, even though the aliens were telling the story from their own mouths. Personally, I like the idea of the Boradoans believing in the existence of other planets (a belief that few/none of the other present ethnic groups are likely to share), and I think other theories have considerable weaknesses. For starters, I don't picture the proto-Boradoans having the intellect to conceive of a world that is as wide as this world actually is (Earth-size, fyi).

If they had the relevant mathematics, then some genius could have come close. Maybe they just trusted their gods to take care of most of the non-essential math & science (Non-essential, in this case, I'm guessing would cover topics such as "how large the planet is"). I mean, even Eratosthenes didn't have much beyond trigonometry and how the sunlight fell down two wells, and even he calculated the circumference of the earth.

This is taken from the actual Aztec pantheon, as per that link up above.

Oh right, I'd forgotten how much the Aztec pantheon loved multitasking.

Most of these gods had a variety of things in their portfolio, and I just went ahead and preserved that for the Old Gods. It's definitely not necessary, but the meta-game explanation could be something like the aliens crash landed on this planet (and had all their conflict and blunders on the other worlds) because they're actually juvenile aliens that hijacked a ship or something. They've been learning with each new world, but they still have problems to deal with, as evidenced by the fact that they crashed into this planet. Of course, this is well beyond the knowledge of any human in the setting.

That makes sense, although I have a few other ideas about how the aliens piloted their ships. I'd need to know more about their physical appearance first though. Could they, for example, be mistaken for angels if they wanted to be? White ensemble, wing-like appendages, etc.?

While we're talking about the aliens, I hadn't considered how they left this planet with their wrecked space ships. Maybe they actually died? Maybe they don't technically need their ships to leave the planet, aka teleportation or something? Maybe they never left, but they're actually asleep within the bowels of the Palace of the Gods? Maybe a lot of them died, the survivors salvaged parts from the fleet, and left in just a few ships, leaving their other wreckage behind?

The tweest-hound in me is quite partial to them being dormant somehow inside the engines of the ship. I'm getting quite the inspiration brain-wave from DX:HR's final boss, although if you haven't played it and want to remain unspoiled, I will remain silent on that inspiration.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-05, 09:21 PM

Landis963

2012-03-05, 09:40 PM

I'm into the idea of them being dormant within the ships in a big way. They don't even really have to be in some sequestered part of the wreckage, because I imagine the proto-Boradoans were basically slaves to these aliens, which is part of the reason why they don't go anywhere near the Palace of the Gods, and protect it from all outsiders.

I would think that, in the model I'm envisioning, they are locked inside... call them stasis pods for lack of a better term, but they can still see what the ship's sensors see. As such, when they want to actually look at their domain, they would call for a sacrifice (or 5). This sacrifice would be taken (or would walk willingly - as I recall some Aztec sacrifices considered it an honor) deep within the ship, one of the stasis pods would be temporarily opened and disconnected from the system so that the sacrifice and the god could talk, then the sacrifice would be killed, his spine replaced, and his brain re-purposed so that the god could use it as a puppet. Yes, this would be the Abusive type of Precursor, why do you ask?

As far as what the aliens look like, I don't know that it's something we really need to make specific. The Aztec gods could shapeshift, and assumed forms that looked like humans, jaguars, snake birds, and other stuff, so they could look like anything. If I had to settle on something, I'm a big fan of aliens-as-light-jellyfish like in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUiVailg-JQ) (skip to 7:22 and buckle in for the next 45 seconds or so). That would explain why the people of Nuevo Borado have had such a hard time figuring out how to unlock the secrets of Platarena.

Holograms, and maybe when they want a physical but non-human form, they augment a sacrifice with extra limbs or call for a non-human sacrifice or something.

And, in conclusion, I have no idea what DX:HR stands for. :smalltongue:

Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Excellent game, a worthy successor to the original, but with a few hiccups. I highly recommend it if you haven't played it already.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-05, 10:17 PM

I remember hearing buzz about Deus Ex before it was a series. I've always kind of wanted to play it, but I've never gotten around to it.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-05, 11:50 PM

I would think that, in the model I'm envisioning, they are locked inside... call them stasis pods for lack of a better term, but they can still see what the ship's sensors see. As such, when they want to actually look at their domain, they would call for a sacrifice (or 5). This sacrifice would be taken (or would walk willingly - as I recall some Aztec sacrifices considered it an honor) deep within the ship, one of the stasis pods would be temporarily opened and disconnected from the system so that the sacrifice and the god could talk, then the sacrifice would be killed, his spine replaced, and his brain re-purposed so that the god could use it as a puppet. Yes, this would be the Abusive type of Precursor, why do you ask?
...
Holograms, and maybe when they want a physical but non-human form, they augment a sacrifice with extra limbs or call for a non-human sacrifice or something.

As much as I also like DXHR, I just want to put forth an idea. The idea technically comes from Trigun, so I'm gonna spoil'r the idea so no one gets upset.

So, we have the aliens in a sort of stasis here as well. But they are also powering the ship themselves. The alien's biology is based somewhat loosely on the same principle as The Plants from Trigun (http://trigun.wikia.com/wiki/Plant ). They can naturally generate huge amounts of energy (which is what allowed them to develop an advanced, highly peaceful society since power and energy were never concerns). The problem is that, regardless of what exactly caused them to crash, when the aliens reached the planet, most of them died in the crash. With severe damage done to their ship, the aliens spend years among the natives, teaching them language (easier to control a people when you can talk to them) and basic mathematics. Anything more advanced is probably against some sort of Prime Directive. Anyway, eventually, the aliens have repaired their ship enough to start sending a distress signal. But because of how remote the planet is, it will take all of the aliens constantly powering the ship while in stasis in order to get a message anywhere in any sort of time. The problem is that it's taking so much time that some of the stasis pods/generators start to fail. As a stop-gap measure, the aliens used Telepathy (go with it) to command their priests to make sacrifices. People are sacrificed by being sent into the bowels of the ship, where they are broken down into nutrients to keep the aliens alive in their stasis.

In addition, I would agree that holograms or psychic projections would be best for the aliens to communicate with their followers. But I don't think they should be able to manifest physically except for short times while telepathically controlling a follower.

Right, whoops, should have caught that. Why don't we call the Borado nation under the golden age of the Old Gods Borado Mayor or Borado Major (with a y sound or a soft j)?

:smallamused: Heh, heh. Bajor. Funny.

If they had the relevant mathematics, then some genius could have come close. Maybe they just trusted their gods to take care of most of the non-essential math & science (Non-essential, in this case, I'm guessing would cover topics such as "how large the planet is"). I mean, even Eratosthenes didn't have much beyond trigonometry and how the sunlight fell down two wells, and even he calculated the circumference of the earth.

Don't forget also that many Mesoamerican civilizations, most notably the Mayans, kept insanely accurate records of the movement of stars and the length of the year. Their calendars are scarily accurate.

That makes sense, although I have a few other ideas about how the aliens piloted their ships. I'd need to know more about their physical appearance first though. Could they, for example, be mistaken for angels if they wanted to be? White ensemble, wing-like appendages, etc.?

I see them as very tall and oddly colored, sort of like Kokopeli (http://www.hauntedamericatours.com/ghosts/Kokopelli.gif ). I'd also post a picture of the Anasazi Aliens from the Real Adventures of Jonny Quest, but I recently discovered that there is literally no pic of them on the internet at all.

EDIT: And lo, did the Universe call me an idiot for not looking hard enough (to be fair, I had to search through several AMV's to find these.)
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/anasazi1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/sithlord7/anasazi2.jpg

Omeganaut

2012-03-06, 11:45 AM

I feel that part of the American mythos about aliens involves a cover-up and some kind of link between the government and the aliens. Perhaps that is why the Neuvo Boradoans split off, they felt the priestocracy was keeping secrets about the aliens, and some of the common folk split off to try to learn those secrets themselves. In actuality, no one has heard from the aliens in years, and the Viejo Boradoans are remaining faithful to their last words, instructing the mortals to never let their powerful tech be used by mortals as it will be abused and may destroy the world.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-06, 01:03 PM

[The Nuevo Boradoans] felt the priestocracy was keeping secrets about the [gods], and some of the common folk split off to try to learn those secrets themselves. In actuality, no one has heard from the [gods] in years, and the Viejo Boradoans are remaining faithful to their last words, instructing the mortals to never let their powerful tech be used by mortals as it will be abused and may destroy the world.
Likewise, they continue to offer regular sacrifices according to their calendar, devised from the knowledge they gained of mathematics and the stars from their gods.

(I think what you wrote is perfect, and I think it can be an obvious hat-tip and an original twist just by replacing "aliens" with "gods," like I've done. Bravo!)

Landis963

2012-03-06, 01:37 PM

this is slightly OT, but I have to ask: Is your avatar a Samurai Link? Because that is kind of awesome.

EDIT: Sorry, a Shogun Link. Samurai have different armor.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-06, 01:45 PM

It sure is! Ceika adapted this picture (http://kungfuamadeus.deviantart.com/favourites/10139859#/d2rrw94) for me that I found on deviantArt.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-06, 06:31 PM

It sure is! Ceika adapted this picture (http://kungfuamadeus.deviantart.com/favourites/10139859#/d2rrw94) for me that I found on deviantArt.

Ah! I thought it was Shogun Yugioh. I mistook the chinstrap for red hair.

Landis963

2012-03-08, 11:34 AM

One question about the native gods: Are they physical gods, or just legends?

Regardless, I have an idea on Tokarev's offsite laboratory. It's on the top of a peak, as I recall, so why doesn't he call it Thunderbird Station after the legendary beast? The parallel might be made more... something (ironic? I don't know) if thunderbirds routinely attack the outpost which shares their name.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-08, 01:45 PM

I'm not entirely sure how the native gods should be represented.

Here's what I'm thinking:
In the Empire, there's a religion that's practiced by almost everyone, but I imagine it being a much greater case of faith than evidential truth. Besides, it may not even have a formal deity, just an overarching command to destroy the creatures of the darkness with the Light. That said, these guys are essentially here to act as a counterpoint to any potential demonic possession/haunted house/whatever stories, so I feel like devotion to this religion should grant bonuses as regards that.

That said, the "pantheon" in the Empire that's more in line with traditional tabletop representations is the collection of myths and heroes. They each represent a particular part of reality, they're all notoriously powerful/skilled, and people have been known to accomplish great things merely by being inspired by their stories. It's important to note that they are not worshiped in the real-world-religion sense, but devotion towards them in the tabletop RPG sense does grant tangible benefits.

Now let's look at Boradoans old and new. They too have a distinct pantheon, known to us (but not to them) to be physically present in the world. We haven't talked explicitly about these Old Gods being able to influence the world outside their "palaces," but the Boradoans nevertheless make sacrifices to them. In terms of benefits enjoyed by this worship, I imagine the Devout Boradoans gain what are essentially spells that augment their resilience, etc. The Nuevo Boradoans, on the other hand, gain access to technology (which could be mechanically represented as magic or whatever you please) because of their study of these Old Gods.

Let's sum up what we have so far:

The Lightborn (just came up with the name): Nominally worshiped, teaching instruct followers to love the light and give their most devout the ability to combat demons/undead.
The Heroes: Historical figures of great importance to the Empire. People listen to the stories of these people, come to respect them greatly, and can call upon unknown inner reserves of strength/daring/ingenuity via an understanding that they come from the same stock as these heroes.
The Old Gods: Trade sacrifical devotion for either strength of body and mind, or access to powerful technology.

Based on the precedent we've established, it seems only just that we give the same sort of metaphysical presence to the Native gods, but we need a means of representing it. I think what might be the easiest way to represent it is via ritual magic, described as spirit journeys. The gods of the Natives should be primal representations of reality's forces (for instance, the Thunderbird is a representation of thunderstorms), and Natives should be able to commune with them by ingesting a substance of some kind (peyote, the peace pipe, whatever), and going on some trippy journey to learn what they need to, to get the MacGuffin, or what have you.

An example: a friend of mine was talking to me about Native American peyote rituals from some reservation in Oklahoma. Apparently there are occasions when you go into a tent with a wise man to drink peyote. Soon, you hear the thundering of the hooves of the horses of the gods, and your wise man guides you on a days-long quest through unbelievable realms so you can gain knowledge and be spiritually cleansed.

a) I feel like that's the best way to represent the Native gods. Present and capable of interacting with reality (maybe sometimes even like the Heroes of the Empire, showing up at random at the campfire or wherever), but dwelling beyond some veil that can't be passed except with great preparation.

b) I didn't think I had this much to write on the subject. :smalltongue:

Here's a chart based on what I've just laid out, mainly because I just figured out how to make them and I think they're way cool:

{table=head]Religion|Method of Devotion|Devotees|Powers Granted
Lightborn|Prayer|Imperials|Ability to (better?) combat Demons and the Undead (Paladin/Cleric-esque)
Heroes|Adoration|All Cultures|Ability to call upon their powers, not unlike a very un-magical kind of Pact Magic
Old Gods|Sacrifice|Boradoans Old and New|Either resilience of body and spirit, or access to unheard of technology (transportation, weapons, food creation, etc.). Very much like Sorcs/Wizards
Native Gods|Spirit Journeys|Natives|Access to great insight, the reception of mighty artifacts, etc. No clear analog, but it has strong Old-School flavor.[/table]

Looking at it in this light, the "Heroes" element serves as a multi-present, pseudoreligious faction that all the cultures can access. The Empire would use figures like Tokarev, Iron John, etc., the Natives would use their own culture heroes, and the Boradoans might even use the Old Gods themselves.

Thoughts?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-08, 09:06 PM

Here's what I'm thinking:
In the Empire, there's a religion that's practiced by almost everyone, but I imagine it being a much greater case of faith than evidential truth. Besides, it may not even have a formal deity, just an overarching command to destroy the creatures of the darkness with the Light. That said, these guys are essentially here to act as a counterpoint to any potential demonic possession/haunted house/whatever stories, so I feel like devotion to this religion should grant bonuses as regards that.

I still like the idea of an Enlightenment themed faith. It just feels to me a little closer to what some of the Founding Father's believed in, the idea that rationalism and logic were at the foundation of the world and that all things could be known in time. Tokarev would definitely be a follower of that kind of faith.

That said, the "pantheon" in the Empire that's more in line with traditional tabletop representations is the collection of myths and heroes. They each represent a particular part of reality, they're all notoriously powerful/skilled, and people have been known to accomplish great things merely by being inspired by their stories. It's important to note that they are not worshiped in the real-world-religion sense, but devotion towards them in the tabletop RPG sense does grant tangible benefits.

:smallamused: Although I could totally see myself sacrificing a sheep for someone like Lincoln or FDR. But yeah, I like this. It feels like the religious equivalent of “pulling yourself up by the bootstraps”, using only the example set by one's forebears to achieve glory. Very American.

Now let's look at Boradoans old and new. They too have a distinct pantheon, known to us (but not to them) to be physically present in the world. We haven't talked explicitly about these Old Gods being able to influence the world outside their "palaces," but the Boradoans nevertheless make sacrifices to them. In terms of benefits enjoyed by this worship, I imagine the Devout Boradoans gain what are essentially spells that augment their resilience, etc. The Nuevo Boradoans, on the other hand, gain access to technology (which could be mechanically represented as magic or whatever you please) because of their study of these Old Gods.

I also like this. As the tech behind the Gods is so advanced, I'd advise making absolutely no effort to explain any of it. Clarke's Third Law should be in full effect here. The Devout (or Viejo as Landis mentioned at some point) Boradoans would, of course be Clerics. Perhaps there also a few Sorcerers about, Avatars of the Gods, as it were. The Gods basically live through a mortal vessel (alleviates the boredom) but they retain their natural powers (I assume that the Gods and their tech are virtually indistinguishable).

The Nuevo Boradoans are picture perfect Wizards. Delvers into lore far beyond their kin, dabbling in arts best left alone. Perhaps many of them are cyborgs? As in, one will have a robotic arm put on to he can gain a Lightning spell. Like The Man that was Used Up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_That_Was_Used_Up ), but not quite as extreme. I can see Imperial delegates looking on their Nuevo Borado counterparts with mixed contempt and revulsion, seeing how their hands are made of iron instead of flesh. Of course, Tokarev would just beg to study them.

The Lightborn (just came up with the name): Nominally worshiped, teaching instruct followers to love the light and give their most devout the ability to combat demons/undead.

It's a good name, regardless of where you take this group. I sort of wonder where the demon/undead fighting came from. Maybe I just didn't see it mentioned before? Regardless, while I would advocate the Enlightenment angle (see above where I rant) this has precedence too. This feels, not like the founding faith of the Empire, but something that grew up from it in the decades following independence, a lot like the Great Awakening in the early 1800's, where Romanticism and the idea that Nature/God was too vast for us puny humans to grasp (as opposed to the scientific/logic and reasoning based attitudes held during the Revolutionary War and the remainder of the century) took root.

Like I said, this also has room since America has been characterized by the occasional wave of religious fervor.

Based on the precedent we've established, it seems only just that we give the same sort of metaphysical presence to the Native gods, but we need a means of representing it. I think what might be the easiest way to represent it is via ritual magic, described as spirit journeys. The gods of the Natives should be primal representations of reality's forces (for instance, the Thunderbird is a representation of thunderstorms), and Natives should be able to commune with them by ingesting a substance of some kind (peyote, the peace pipe, whatever), and going on some trippy journey to learn what they need to, to get the MacGuffin, or what have you.
…
a) I feel like that's the best way to represent the Native gods. Present and capable of interacting with reality (maybe sometimes even like the Heroes of the Empire, showing up at random at the campfire or wherever), but dwelling beyond some veil that can't be passed except with great preparation.

So, a combination of Druids, Sorcerer-types and whatever classes deal with potions. Then there's this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnJDdaUQNRI ). I think the Native Faith should basically resemble a Disney Acid Sequence all the time. Nature at once far bigger than man, and yet so very personal. I like that.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-08, 09:41 PM

I still like the idea of an Enlightenment themed faith. It just feels to me a little closer to what some of the Founding Father's believed in, the idea that rationalism and logic were at the foundation of the world and that all things could be known in time. Tokarev would definitely be a follower of that kind of faith.

The Enlightenment faith is exactly what I picture the Empire's Hero Cult stuff to be. However, I can't stress enough that while the mechanics might treat this like a religion, the people of the world don't look at it that way. It's just hearing awesome stories, and using those stories to find hidden reserves within oneself.

I also like this. As the tech behind the Gods is so advanced, I'd advise making absolutely no effort to explain any of it. Clarke's Third Law should be in full effect here. The Devout (or Viejo as Landis mentioned at some point) Boradoans would, of course be Clerics. Perhaps there also a few Sorcerers about, Avatars of the Gods, as it were. The Gods basically live through a mortal vessel (alleviates the boredom) but they retain their natural powers (I assume that the Gods and their tech are virtually indistinguishable).

The Nuevo Boradoans are picture perfect Wizards. Delvers into lore far beyond their kin, dabbling in arts best left alone. Perhaps many of them are cyborgs? As in, one will have a robotic arm put on to he can gain a Lightning spell. Like The Man that was Used Up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_That_Was_Used_Up ), but not quite as extreme. I can see Imperial delegates looking on their Nuevo Borado counterparts with mixed contempt and revulsion, seeing how their hands are made of iron instead of flesh. Of course, Tokarev would just beg to study them.

I agree with everything.

I sort of wonder where the demon/undead fighting came from. Maybe I just didn't see it mentioned before?

It's nothing that I've spent any time talking about in the thread, but it's something that's been pretty heavy on my mind. American folklore (especially within the past 50-60 years) is rife with stories (read: movies) of demonic possession, hauntings, witch hunts, and zombies. In almost all of these stories, Christianity (or faith in general) is used to combat these things to varying degrees of success, and the Lightborn is an attempt to represent that force of light that stands against the darkness.

This feels, not like the founding faith of the Empire, but something that grew up from it in the decades following independence, a lot like the Great Awakening in the early 1800's, where Romanticism and the idea that Nature/God was too vast for us puny humans to grasp (as opposed to the scientific/logic and reasoning based attitudes held during the Revolutionary War and the remainder of the century) took root.

My thinking is like this:
The Lightborn were the earliest colonists from the Old World, crossing the seas to escape the horrors of the Vampire shadow government. They continued to practice their faith, even as many, many more Old Worlders immigrated for their own reasons. Eventually, all of these immigrants gather into The Empire. Because they were here first, the Lightborn have a very strong presence in the Empire, even though the Empire maintains a strict policy in favor of religious freedom.
Compare:
The [pilgrims] were the earliest colonists from the Old World, crossing the seas to escape the horrors of [religious persecution]. They continued to practice their faith, even as many, many more Old Worlders immigrated for their own reasons. Eventually, all of these immigrants gathered into [The USA]. Because they were here first, [Christianity] has a very strong presence in [the US], even though [the US] maintains a strict policy in favor of religious freedom.

P.S. - This makes me think of Lightborn Amish communities, which for some reason is totally awesome to me. :smalltongue:

So, a combination of Druids, Sorcerer-types and whatever classes deal with potions. Then there's this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnJDdaUQNRI ). I think the Native Faith should basically resemble a Disney Acid Sequence all the time. Nature at once far bigger than man, and yet so very personal. I like that.

Hahahaha, yes! You've explained it perfectly. I want big-lipped alligators at every wacky step of the way.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-08, 10:10 PM

It's nothing that I've spent any time talking about in the thread, but it's something that's been pretty heavy on my mind. American folklore (especially within the past 50-60 years) is rife with stories (read: movies) of demonic possession, hauntings, witch hunts, and zombies. In almost all of these stories, Christianity (or faith in general) is used to combat these things to varying degrees of success, and the Lightborn is an attempt to represent that force of light that stands against the darkness.

Yeah. I like that. We're good here. :smallsmile:

My thinking is like this:
The Lightborn were the earliest colonists from the Old World, crossing the seas to escape the horrors of the Vampire shadow government. They continued to practice their faith, even as many, many more Old Worlders immigrated for their own reasons. Eventually, all of these immigrants gather into The Empire. Because they were here first, the Lightborn have a very strong presence in the Empire, even though the Empire maintains a strict policy in favor of religious freedom.
Compare:
The [pilgrims] were the earliest colonists from the Old World, crossing the seas to escape the horrors of [religious persecution]. They continued to practice their faith, even as many, many more Old Worlders immigrated for their own reasons. Eventually, all of these immigrants gathered into [The USA]. Because they were here first, [Christianity] has a very strong presence in [the US], even though [the US] maintains a strict policy in favor of religious freedom.

P.S. - This makes me think of Lightborn Amish communities, which for some reason is totally awesome to me. :smalltongue:

Now that I see you're thought process, this makes a lot of sense. Maybe I was just fixating on one thing you mentioned. I agree wholeheartedly. Although now I wonder what some of the later immigrant's faith is going to look like. Irish-types, for instance, make up a lot of the culture in cities like Boston and New York because of the huge immigration booms during the Civil War and late 19th Century. Catholicism historically always had trouble in America due to the more Protestant underpinnings. (See: Gangs of New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_of_New_York))

How about we have the immigrants coming over to the Empire be closer to Pagans than usual? Like, the Irish stand-ins (Finnegals) are devout servants (and descendants) of the Unseelie Fey Folk? The Lightborn Imperials don't always get along with them because they see these immigrants' “Fey” as another word for “Vampire”. But as the Finnegals come over, their culture starts to merge into the general Imperial one. So you have some Lightborns with slight accents invoking a Finnigaelic Hero to combat a demon.

@Amish: Verily. Thou hast measured it well. :smallcool: (We need an Amish smilie)

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-08, 10:39 PM

(We need an Amish smilie)

Truer words...

I'm down with having several different ethnicities that are also different waves of immigrants. While I'm thinking about it, I want some of the "Natives" in the far northeast to be white, bearded sailor folk, to reflect the whole Vinland thing.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-08, 11:22 PM

I'm down with having several different ethnicities that are also different waves of immigrants. While I'm thinking about it, I want some of the "Natives" in the far northeast to be white, bearded sailor folk, to reflect the whole Vinland thing.

Note: I just realized you actually did mean North East as opposed to North West. I thought you were talking about those Fisherman-type Natives on the Northwest coast. Well, you could still take my advice if you feel like it. It certainly adds variety to the Western Regions of the Empire. And Eastern Achalka might be a better locale for Vinland types, considering Newfoundland and such.

Original Idea Before Correction: Or, Russian. Alaska was a series of Russian Colonies back in the early 19th Century, and Fort Ross in Northern California was their local settlement. In RL of course, the Spanish pushed the Russians out of California, and Russia sold Alaska to the US, but we could change that around. Why don't we have a sizable portion of the "NW Natives" (also need a name) who are descendants of Russian-Viking-Inuit pairings that took place years before. These Ruvinit Peoples were incorporated into the local populations after support from their homelands dried up, and now the Empire has extended control over them. As an added touch, the Ruvinits think of themselves primarily as Natives before their older nationalities, and form a part of the core of North-Western Native resistance to the Empire.

EDIT: Why do I keep starting new pages? :smalltongue:

TheMeMan

2012-03-09, 03:36 AM

Truer words...

I'm down with having several different ethnicities that are also different waves of immigrants. While I'm thinking about it, I want some of the "Natives" in the far northeast to be white, bearded sailor folk, to reflect the whole Vinland thing.

Actually not that improbable of an occurance. In the North East, some of the settlers were rather baffled by the presence of a group of natives who had a rather high-degree of lighter skin color, blue eyes, and occasional blonde or red hair. Of course, what they didn't realize was that the colony of Roanoke had dissolved and the people probably ended up looking to the native communities in the area for shelter and such. A generation or two of hot, hot Native on European action resulted in a group which appeared a bit more "European" than other groups.

And then there are the Mandan, which during early British expeditions were noted to have many people who were fair skinned, blue-eyed, and light haired. Coupling this with the Mandan's very prominent and extensive agricultural systems, the European explorers and thinkers devised a rather... unique story involving a mad Welsh Prince by the name of Madock. Essentially the story goes that Madock set sail west from the British Isles on a whim, found his way to the gulf of Mexico, sailed up the Mississippi, hit the head waters at Lake Itasca, started walking west-ward until running into the middle of nowhere North Dakota, decided this was an AMAZING place to settle(The most ridiculous part of this story, as anyone from the area could tell you it's an awful place), and joined a group of natives. He and his men had children with their new native wives, taught them how to farm, and civilized them.

Of course the far more simple answer involves the fact that French fur traders had been in the area for a couple centuries by this point. And if you know anything about the French...

There are a few other stories about the fair-skinned natives, but these are the most prominent. Put more simply, there's a lot to draw from and it makes a good deal of sense.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-10, 08:39 PM

Well, I figured I'd try another mythic hero until another topic for discussion presents itself. This time, an Abraham Lincoln analogue.

Isaiah Copperton
Isaiah Copperton is widely regarded as the greatest Emperor, and the closest any Imperial has ever come to true worship after death. Born to extreme poverty, Copperton lived in a log cabin and worked a variety of taxing, physical jobs. He worked himself through college, eventually becoming a lawyer.

Early in his career he was asked to represent an Ironman in court. Scotland Tokarev (taking the name of his owner) was suing the State of Irenia for his freedom. He had been a close confidant of Dr Steam and a representative of his among the Ironmen who worked for the Doctor. When Tokarev wished to free his property (as Scotland was legally defined), he discovered that Irenian State Law did not allow for the actual freeing of Ironmen from slavery. The law was worded in such a way that Scotland Tokarev, being built in Irenia, would not even be allowed to leave the state. Though Tokarev could have quietly, unofficially freed his friend, Scotland was still forbidden to leave the state, and Tokarev wanted to stand up for the principal of the thing, as well as for his friend.

Copperton was tasked with winning the case. Though he did indeed win, the Imperial Supreme Court ruled against the case, stating that “Property could not sue”. Though Scotland and Tokarev were upset by the ruling, Copperton was hit especially hard. Delving headlong into the Ironman Freedom debate, he began making a name for himself as a proponent of freedom. Eventually, his platform grew in strength until he was elevated to the Emperor's position. However, due to a divisive campaign, the Kinstrife soon began with the disaffected regions of the Empire breaking away.

Copperton, though it broke his heart, was forced to leave the slavery issue alone for the moment. Immediate abolition would cause more states to break away, and he couldn't afford any more secessions. The war slowly took its toll on the Emperor. Though a giant of a man, he was often described as gangly and sick by those who met him, a bumbling ape by those who hated him. Two of his sons would die while he was in office, one of illness, the other by a terrible fall from the palace balcony. His wife also appeared to enter a spiral of depression and madness before the war's end. It was reported that Copperton rarely, if ever slept. He poured over every aspect of the war, from managing supply line routes to reviewing generals' orders while they were on the march. Even his political opponents (many of whom occupied positions in the Imperial Cabinet and General officers) were forced to admit the Emperor was constantly working himself closer and closer to death.

After a near-invasion of the capital was again thwarted, Copperton finally took the opportunity of a victory to order the abolishment of Ironmen Slavery. The move was met with derision in the rebellious states, but soon the Loyalist forces found themselves arming a vast army of new recruits, Ironmen recruits, ready to fight for a country that was finally willing to fight for them. Due to these new reinforcements, Firstport survived a Fifth straight siege later that year, and the Battle of Norton later turned into a resounding victory when Ironmen reinforcements drove an invading army back, nearly without aid.

Exhaustion was getting to Copperton, and it was showing. General Potter, just after the collapse of the Rebel Capital near the end of the war, went to meet with the Emperor. After their meeting, where they discussed matters of post-war-unification and unity, Potter was quoted as saying, “He possessed then more of the qualities of greatness than any man who has ever lived”. Yet despite this, even the General admitted that the Emperor looked “like hell”.

As the war came to its final end, Copperton met one final twist of fate. Leland Amsterdam, one of the generals of the early war who had been relieved of command for his poor performance, deluded himself into blaming the Emperor for his failings and shot him while he rested on his throne. No one was able to heal him, the bullet that struck him being treated against magical healing. In desperation, the staff contacted Dr Steam. Tokarev brought all of his genius to bear, and ultimately succeeded at preserving Copperton's life. The Emperor however did not awaken. Ever since, he has remained in a healing coma, sitting in his throne. It was determined that he was still aware, still alive, though his mind had taken upon itself another terrible task. While the Emperor sleeps, his mind combats a strange darkness that has never been identified, though its own might is apparent by the strain it places upon the Slumbering Emperor. Copperton is still enshrined in the palace. A new throne was constructed for new Emperors, but with their back to his own. Emperor Copperton has been looking over every Emperor's shoulders since.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-10, 10:59 PM

Holy ****, you managed to work the Lincoln Monument into the story.

And. Ninjadeadbeard. Provides.

I love every second of it. What if there has only been one Emperor since Copperton, and he's slowly becoming more and more paranoid about the presence behind him?

Landis963

2012-03-10, 11:11 PM

First, great write-up. It does, however, raise a few questions.

1) Was the emperor's position elected? I'm not sure if we ever discussed that or not. If it's not an elected position, then there goes Copperton's rise to power. However, if it is in fact hereditary, just have the newly dead Emperor entrust Copperton as, say, regent, just in time for the Kinstrife to blow up in his face. This old emperor wouldn't even need much of a character background, only grounds for a) liking and trusting Copperton enough to appoint him to that position and b) dying in the first place (I humbly suggest assassination). We can even tie the two together, as Previous Emperor's work against slavery might be the final push to get Copperton to finish the job. All this is, however, dependent on the question of how new emperors are chosen, and I might be misremembering.

2) Exactly how many fields is Tokarev involved in? I realize that mad scientists would naturally branch out as field after field inspires them, and everyone needs a hobby, but inventing cybernetics single-handed? That plus his dabblings in engineering, aeronautics, robotics, etc. makes him seem over-powered, IMO, especially since the listed fields are in the material sciences and cybernetics need to bridge both the material and life sciences. He can be a great asset to the Loyalist side, but not the be-all-end-all.

3) Why do both his children have to die? This might be the sucker for happy endings in me talking, but it would be nice to have something for Copperton to wake up to. (This is assuming that Copperton wakes up within his natural lifespan) And yes, I realize that his wife falling into madness and his sons dying has basis in Real Life, but it would be more tragic if he woke up and have nothing left.

EDIT:

Holy ****, you managed to work the Lincoln Monument into the story.

:smalleek: Oh my god that's genius. Why did I not notice this before?

I love every second of it. What if there has only been one Emperor since Copperton, and he's slowly becoming more and more paranoid about the presence behind him?

I like it. It certainly sidesteps the question of "can this chair keep him alive past his natural lifespan?" because, y'know, that wouldn't have happened yet.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-11, 12:07 AM

1) On the Office of Emperor.

2) Exactly how many fields is Tokarev involved in?

3) Why do both his children have to die?

1) I haven't given much thought to how the Emperors come to power. I don't think it should be hereditary, but I don't necessarily think it should be democratic, either. It's definitely something to discuss.

As far as how Copperton came to power, RL could be a useful guide. Buchanan was a soppy president, and he basically wrote a letter to Lincoln saying "May you have more fun in the presidency than I."

For our purposes, there could be some prior Emperor who gives up his term to Copperton, saying something like "You clearly know what you're doing better than I do. Have at it, young man," and then disappearing from the public eye.

2) When I read the Copperton write-up, I got the impression that Tokarev had constructed some sort of gigantic iron lung for Copperton, but even then I think I'm OK with the idea of Tokarev being a polymath. In many ways, these mythical figures and folk heroes that we're creating fulfill the roles of the gods of more typical settings. Concho Tex is a good example: he claims ownership of literally every single cow and bull in the entirety of the New World, and people bow to that claim. He rides a giant cougar. Point being, these characters are larger than life, and I think we can afford to toy with that.

3) Ninja, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were trying to create a situation where Copperton had nothing to live for but the Empire itself. Spoiler alert about the end of The Dark Knight:
In the same sense that Bruce Wayne makes the choice to become Gotham's public enemy in order to serve as its secret protector,
so too does Copperton turn his full attention towards the good of the Empire at large because his previous efforts have poisoned any chance he has of living a normal life. Or something like that.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-11, 12:43 AM

Holy ****, you managed to work the Lincoln Monument into the story.

Thank you. When I was coming up with the details, I realized I had an opportunity. A Golden opportunity, some might say. I wonder what other Emperors remain in a catatonic slumber while remaining at the center of their governments? (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind ) :smallamused:

First, great write-up. It does, however, raise a few questions.

1) Was the emperor's position elected? I'm not sure if we ever discussed that or not. If it's not an elected position, then there goes Copperton's rise to power. However, if it is in fact hereditary, just have the newly dead Emperor entrust Copperton as, say, regent, just in time for the Kinstrife to blow up in his face. This old emperor wouldn't even need much of a character background, only grounds for a) liking and trusting Copperton enough to appoint him to that position and b) dying in the first place (I humbly suggest assassination). We can even tie the two together, as Previous Emperor's work against slavery might be the final push to get Copperton to finish the job. All this is, however, dependent on the question of how new emperors are chosen, and I might be misremembering.

I seem to recall in the OP:

The Empire: A democratic Empire made up of immigrants from across the Eastern Ocean, this nation is a major contender for control of the entire continent.

Emphasis mine. And so that's what I went on. I assumed that the first emperor, Norton I, set various precedents, like G Washington in RL. One I imagined was that the Emperor would serve for a limited time, possibly because of how long a single Vampire Lord could live and thus reign over his subjects back in the Old World. Although, given how similar Republics throughout history tend to go, I would assume it more likely that either the Emperor rules for life and the next is elected by the Senate/Congress, or he rules for however long he wishes and then hands the crown to a non-hereditary successor. No one wants an actual dynasty of course, and so there's probably a law against a blood relative inheriting the crown.

As to the previous Emperor, I imagined him similarily to the RL Buchanan. And I've often heard his inaction and ineptitude were the final causes of the Civil War, simply because he refused to act during the last few months of his term, when the rebels could have been decisively beaten before they grew into the threat they ended up becoming.

Either way, changing the bio to reflect any new info is easy, so we just have to decide how we want to play this. I assume Zap has some idea of his own as to Imperial succession, so I want to hear if he's thought of it much.

2) Exactly how many fields is Tokarev involved in? I realize that mad scientists would naturally branch out as field after field inspires them, and everyone needs a hobby, but inventing cybernetics single-handed? That plus his dabblings in engineering, aeronautics, robotics, etc. makes him seem over-powered, IMO, especially since the listed fields are in the material sciences and cybernetics need to bridge both the material and life sciences. He can be a great asset to the Loyalist side, but not the be-all-end-all.

We could change it so that Jameson has background in something as practical as cybernetics/medicine. You are right about Tokarev. Looking at the list, he should really focus on General Mad Science, like engineering, Steamonautics and maybe something else on the side. Jameson isn't an idiot anyway. He's just more down-to-earth and more straightforward in his thinking, so perhaps a slightly more practical science is right up his alley.

3) Why do both his children have to die? This might be the sucker for happy endings in me talking, but it would be nice to have something for Copperton to wake up to. (This is assuming that Copperton wakes up within his natural lifespan) And yes, I realize that his wife falling into madness and his sons dying has basis in Real Life, but it would be more tragic if he woke up and have nothing left.

That's a tough question. On the one hand: I genuinely believe Lincoln is in the running for “Best Human Being Award”, so I'd normally agree that I'd like to see him have a happier ending. But then I think from a narrative standpoint. He has to suffer. He's this absolutely decent, dedicated man of enormous passions and talents, but one who judges himself too harshly at times for not being (in his mind) “good enough”. He couldn't save Scotland Tokarev from slavery. He couldn't prevent a horrible war that ended the lives of hundreds of thousands of his own people, a war that (although started by a laundry list of cultural conflicts that went back more than a century) to his mind only began because he wanted to help a group of people attain their legitimate rights as thinking creatures. Had he not been elected/selected, the Pro-Slavery Faction wouldn't have been backed into a corner like in RL. There could have been negotiations with an Emperor who wasn't directly supported by abolitionists. In Copperton's mind, he is the root cause of all the horrors that he sees around him.

But he never gives up. Despite his own sins piling atop his shoulders (real and imagined), despite the loss of his health, his family, his livelihood and even his good name when the war was at it's darkest moments, he holds to his convictions. Damnit, he improves his convictions. Lincoln was willing to leave all the Blacks enslaved if it would save the Union when he took office, but by the end of the war he had come to believe that there could be no Union with slavery. To be the brightest star in the sky, sometimes we must be refined in hell's fire.

And in any case, at least one of Lincoln's sons survived, so there is still hope for a happier day for Copperton.

3) Ninja, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were trying to create a situation where Copperton had nothing to live for but the Empire itself. Spoiler alert about the end of The Dark Knight:
In the same sense that Bruce Wayne makes the choice to become Gotham's public enemy in order to serve as its secret protector,
so too does Copperton turn his full attention towards the good of the Empire at large because his previous efforts have poisoned any chance he has of living a normal life. Or something like that.

I hadn't thought of that. Good catch there! I mostly agree with everything you wrote, but I already wrote out this long bit. How do you feel about an Emperor styled after the Early Roman Emperors? Nonhereditary, and picked basically because the incumbent thought they were genuinely the most competent person for the job.

Landis963

2012-03-11, 02:32 AM

I seem to recall in the OP:...Emphasis mine. And so that's what I went on. I assumed that the first emperor, Norton I, set various precedents, like G Washington in RL. One I imagined was that the Emperor would serve for a limited time, possibly because of how long a single Vampire Lord could live and thus reign over his subjects back in the Old World. Although, given how similar Republics throughout history tend to go, I would assume it more likely that either the Emperor rules for life and the next is elected by the Senate/Congress, or he rules for however long he wishes and then hands the crown to a non-hereditary successor. No one wants an actual dynasty of course, and so there's probably a law against a blood relative inheriting the crown.

Ah, thanks. Although I do like your idea of having the Emperors appoint their successors verbally before their forced retirement. I actually have something similar for a city-state in a different project of mine, although it's a triumvirate rather than a single ruler.

As to the previous Emperor, I imagined him similarily to the RL Buchanan. And I've often heard his inaction and ineptitude were the final causes of the Civil War, simply because he refused to act during the last few months of his term, when the rebels could have been decisively beaten before they grew into the threat they ended up becoming.

Either way, changing the bio to reflect any new info is easy, so we just have to decide how we want to play this. I assume Zap has some idea of his own as to Imperial succession, so I want to hear if he's thought of it much.

OK. When I thought of that, I was actually thinking of Kennedy and Johnson, in that Previous Emperor (whatever we decide to call him) actually started in on this problem but was interrupted by assassination/terminal disease/the end of his term, and left it to Copperton (the "Johnson" in this analogy) to finish his work. The fact that the Kinstrife popped up during Copperton's term meant that he naturally got a bigger slice of the history books.

We could change it so that Jameson has background in something as practical as cybernetics/medicine. You are right about Tokarev. Looking at the list, he should really focus on General Mad Science, like engineering, Steamonautics and maybe something else on the side. Jameson isn't an idiot anyway. He's just more down-to-earth and more straightforward in his thinking, so perhaps a slightly more practical science is right up his alley.

It would be an interesting reversal: Instead of Jameson having to search out all of Tokarev's plans for editing, Tokarev comes to Jameson for help in creating his life-preserving machine, especially if Jameson is more versed in precision operations like (to use a modern example) installing a pacemaker.

That's a tough question. On the one hand: I genuinely believe Lincoln is in the running for “Best Human Being Award”, so I'd normally agree that I'd like to see him have a happier ending. But then I think from a narrative standpoint. He has to suffer. He's this absolutely decent, dedicated man of enormous passions and talents, but one who judges himself too harshly at times for not being (in his mind) “good enough”. He couldn't save Scotland Tokarev from slavery. He couldn't prevent a horrible war that ended the lives of hundreds of thousands of his own people, a war that (although started by a laundry list of cultural conflicts that went back more than a century) to his mind only began because he wanted to help a group of people attain their legitimate rights as thinking creatures. Had he not been elected/selected, the Pro-Slavery Faction wouldn't have been backed into a corner like in RL. There could have been negotiations with an Emperor who wasn't directly supported by abolitionists. In Copperton's mind, he is the root cause of all the horrors that he sees around him.

I agree, but with one caveat: This seems like Act-2 "Darkest-Hour-Of-The-Plot" stuff.
EDIT: Act 3, I mean, since "Darkest Hour" usually comes right before the climax.

But he never gives up. Despite his own sins piling atop his shoulders (real and imagined), despite the loss of his health, his family, his livelihood and even his good name when the war was at it's darkest moments, he holds to his convictions. Damnit, he improves his convictions. Lincoln was willing to leave all the Blacks enslaved if it would save the Union when he took office, but by the end of the war he had come to believe that there could be no Union with slavery. To be the brightest star in the sky, sometimes we must be refined in hell's fire.

And thus he should be allowed to have earned his happy ending (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarnYourHappyEnding). (Warning: tvtropes link)

And in any case, at least one of Lincoln's sons survived, so there is still hope for a happier day for Copperton.

Glad to see I was mistaken on that point.

I hadn't thought of that. Good catch there! I mostly agree with everything you wrote, but I already wrote out this long bit. How do you feel about an Emperor styled after the Early Roman Emperors? Nonhereditary, and picked basically because the incumbent thought they were genuinely the most competent person for the job.

That sounds like a great idea, especially if they were shorter than life terms. But I'll let Zap have the final word on this.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-11, 11:12 AM

As far as the Emperorship is concerned, I like the idea about styling it in the Roman Republic. Maybe something like this:

The Emperor serves for no more than 10 years.
The current Emperor may resign whenever he/she wishes.
Anyone may contest the Emperor's rule, campaigning against him/her for the office at any time.
The citizenry elect representatives to the Imperial Congress, and the sole responsibility for electing an Emperor falls on the shoulders of the Senate.
The current Emperor may have a voice as well, with his vote counting as more normal votes than usual.

Copperton's lack of a happy ending could be better fuel for characters to take him as their culture hero paragon; they want to continue the work started by this Greatest of Men, particularly because he's suffered so much for it and won't be able to finish it himself.

Also, placing his story on the timeline such that he's still in his coma is perfect fodder for a questline. "The Greatest Human Being Who Ever Lived is locked in stasis, and only the bravest, most true-hearted Imperials will be able to free him from his mental and bodily prison." Just because he hasn't had his happy ending yet, doesn't mean he can't have it eventually. I want to create a world that is full of possibility, and one of the best ways to handle it is by creating a bunch of stories that haven't yet been finished. The characters come in partway through all of these tales, and its their job to wrap them up. As an NPC, I think it's actually better that Copperton hasn't yet received his happy ending. It's not our job as worldbuilders to account for that; it's our job to set up the situation where it could happen, and the GM's job to actually bring it to fruition.

Tokarev/Jameson: Jameson is a doctor? Hahahaha, it's Holmes and Watson! I love it! I also think it's really compelling that there are some situations (in this case, maybe the most important situation ever) where Tokarev has to ask for help, and Jameson really gets to shine. It's got movie rights written all over it.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-11, 07:51 PM

As far as the Emperorship is concerned, I like the idea about styling it in the Roman Republic. Maybe something like this:
The Emperor serves for no more than 10 years.

I assume that the 10 year limit is more by tradition than legislation. RL US Presidents serve 4 year terms, but until after FDR there wasn't a limit on how many terms they could have. Most (barring Theodore Roosevelt) didn't even attempt to run for a third term, following George Washington's precedent, rather than an actual legal limit.

Anyone may contest the Emperor's rule, campaigning against him/her for the office at any time.

Seems a little chaotic. I mean, every single decision an RL President makes can (and usually is) contested by at least somebody. If anyone can just up and decide to run against you at any time, you'd never do anything. Every decision would have to be politically motivated instead of motivated by practicality or morality. You have a situation like in Rome where all one had to do to attain the throne was placate the Mob. The Mob became Rome, and if you fell out of favor (like Pompey or the Senate when Caesar began throwing money at the poor), you were lost.

It could be that the Congress can order an Emperor deposed if they can vote on it and reach a three-fourths majority on the issue. Or the Emperor must be reviewed by the Congress once per Congressional election cycle (if working with staggered terms like in RL, then once an entire set of elections) and can be deposed then if their performance is found wanting.

The citizenry elect representatives to the Imperial Congress, and the sole responsibility for electing an Emperor falls on the shoulders of the Senate.

The foundation of a bicameral Legislature in RL America was due to the need to balance power between the larger states and smaller states. One house is Population based while the other has equal representation. But are the conditions of the Founding of the Empire similar to RL? In light of this, could the Empire instead have a Parliamentary Legislature, or a single house? I know some Parliaments have more than one, but it would present an interesting dynamic to play around with.

The current Emperor may have a voice as well, with his vote counting as more normal votes than usual.

So the Emperor is styled on Augustus Caesar. He's officially “Just First Citizen”. RL Caesar's official title basically just stated that he had the right to speak first at Senate meetings. The real power of the early Roman Emperors came not from their actual legal authority, but from the personal power of the man himself. Legal authority was added as time went on.

Of course, does the Empire have the same sense of “Separation of Powers” as RL? If so then it seems out of character for the Executive branch and Legislative to be so close. Our founding fathers were so paranoid about anyone having too much power that I think Ben Franklin or someone similar basically declared the republic dead as soon as an Executive Branch Existed.

Actually, now that I think about it (a little off topic but I think it bears mentioning), was there an equivalent to the Salem Witch Trials in this world? It could be argued that the Trials were the basis for the later founding fathers to demand the Justice system be built along the lines, “Innocent until proven Guilty”. That's exactly what happened in Salem, and when the truth of the matter came out the people were horrified by what they had done. I think the judge presiding essentially resigned on the spot he was so ashamed. Just something to consider.

Copperton's lack of a happy ending could be better fuel for characters to take him as their culture hero paragon; they want to continue the work started by this Greatest of Men, particularly because he's suffered so much for it and won't be able to finish it himself...

I do love this reasoning, especially what you said about our duty as world-builders.

Landis963

2012-03-11, 08:34 PM

As far as the Emperorship is concerned, I like the idea about styling it in the Roman Republic. Maybe something like this:

The Emperor serves for no more than 10 years.
The current Emperor may resign whenever he/she wishes.
Anyone may contest the Emperor's rule, campaigning against him/her for the office at any time.
The citizenry elect representatives to the Imperial Congress, and the sole responsibility for electing an Emperor falls on the shoulders of the Senate.
The current Emperor may have a voice as well, with his vote counting as more normal votes than usual.

It sounds pretty good, although I would add in some system for "votes of no confidence", as it were: "anyone may contest the Emperor's rule" needs some extra safeguards in place before it's safe for an Emperor to do anything, like Ninja mentioned.

Copperton's lack of a happy ending could be better fuel for characters to take him as their culture hero paragon...
Also, placing his story on the timeline such that he's still in his coma is perfect fodder for a questline... Just because he hasn't had his happy ending yet, doesn't mean he can't have it eventually.

Fair enough. I was mainly thinking of after he wakes up, and it would make for a great plotline if the PCs' actions affected the optimism of Copperton's awakening.

I want to create a world that is full of possibility, and one of the best ways to handle it is by creating a bunch of stories that haven't yet been finished... As an NPC, I think it's actually better that Copperton hasn't yet received his happy ending. It's not our job as worldbuilders to account for that; it's our job to set up the situation where it could happen, and the GM's job to actually bring it to fruition.

I should really keep this in mind when I restart my own project. Do you mind if I sig this?

Tokarev/Jameson: Jameson is a doctor? Hahahaha, it's Holmes and Watson! I love it! I also think it's really compelling that there are some situations (in this case, maybe the most important situation ever) where Tokarev has to ask for help, and Jameson really gets to shine. It's got movie rights written all over it.

It does have that ring to it, doesn't it? So, who should play them in the inevitable dramatization of the event? (Assuming, of course, that any future actors in this world have their analogues in this one:smallwink:)

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-11, 09:17 PM

It does have that ring to it, doesn't it? So, who should play them in the inevitable dramatization of the event? (Assuming, of course, that any future actors in this world have their analogues in this one:smallwink:)

Dr Tokarev - Johnny Depp.
Jameson - Robert Downey Jr.

The part of "Dr Steam's Flying City" shall be played tonight by Shaquille O'Neal. :smalltongue:

Landis963

2012-03-12, 12:54 AM

Dr Tokarev - Johnny Depp.
Jameson - Robert Downey Jr.

The part of "Dr Steam's Flying City" shall be played tonight by Shaquille O'Neal. :smalltongue:

I'm not sure... I know John Noble can play an excellent mad scientist, but I'm not sure Johnny Depp can keep him from being "Jack Sparrow in a lab". Agree totally on Robert Downey Jr. playing Jameson.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-12, 09:37 AM

I like this info we're developing about the office of the Emperor, but I'm wondering how relevant it is to the task of building the world. There's a series of posts over at one of my favorite blogs that seeks to implement a design philosophy that emphasizes efficiency over detail. Here's a link:

Getting Real in Game Design (http://www.korpg.com/blog/getting-real-in-game-design/)

In a nutshell, the goal is to adopt a

highly agile, do now only what’s necessary and be ready to both say no to yourself and your customers when asked for something unnecessary in an effort to make sure you deliver what’s needed approach to creation.

I try to adopt that in most of the things I do, not only because it saves me time, but I believe it leaves space at the table for creativity.

On one hand, I think it would be really cool to lay out the entire governmental structure of this world; to detail the Emperor's powers, the length of the terms, how the various branches check and balance each other, and all that. It would provide a lot of fodder for some very interesting political roleplay.

On the other hand, I have a strong intuition that saying "The Empire is like a cross between U.S. Democracy and the Roman Republic, with an Emperor that is elected, serves for no more than 10 years, and has a little influence on the Senate to decide the next Emperor," is all we really need to get off the ground. Similar to the idea of leaving the ellipses at the end of Copperton's story, I think this particular approach allows us to build the proverbial sandbox, and any DM that comes along is welcome to flesh it out further.

That said, I agree that "anyone can contest the Emperor's rule" is a little too lazy on my part. I pictured a world where someone is always campaigning for election, while the Emperor usually just lets his work speak for him. That said, I think you guys point out legitimate problems with it, and it should either be revised or scrapped in favor of a broad-stroke, potential-laden summary of the government.

If Tokarev and Jameson were immortalized in film, they would have to be huge celebrities, and they would have to alternate roles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj5HTUr2Ki0). :smalltongue:

And Landis, Ninja, and anyone else who's watching: you're welcome to put every word I've ever said in your signatures. I won't even charge you!

Landis963

2012-03-12, 09:59 AM

I like this info we're developing about the office of the Emperor, but I'm wondering how relevant it is to the task of building the world.

In that case, what still remains to be built? We have 4 major cities, several culture heroes, the Boradoans, most of the mountain natives (which still need a good name), and several good plot hooks that can hold a party's interest.

On one hand, I think it would be really cool to lay out the entire governmental structure of this world; to detail the Emperor's powers, the length of the terms, how the various branches check and balance each other, and all that. It would provide a lot of fodder for some very interesting political roleplay.

On the other hand, I have a strong intuition that saying "The Empire is like a cross between U.S. Democracy and the Roman Republic, with an Emperor that is elected, serves for no more than 10 years, and has a little influence on the Senate to decide the next Emperor," is all we really need to get off the ground. Similar to the idea of leaving the ellipses at the end of Copperton's story, I think this particular approach allows us to build the proverbial sandbox, and any DM that comes along is welcome to flesh it out further.

I still think there should be some info on it past the basic outline. And, again, if we're only building a sandbox, what's left to be built?

That said, I agree that "anyone can contest the Emperor's rule" is a little too lazy on my part. I pictured a world where someone is always campaigning for election, while the Emperor usually just lets his work speak for him. That said, I think you guys point out legitimate problems with it, and it should either be revised or scrapped in favor of a broad-stroke, potential-laden summary of the government.

Personally, I'd go with the revision, into something like "the cities can petition for a vote of no confidence in the Emperor, and if it is ratified by the Senate then the election process begins."

If Tokarev and Jameson were immortalized in film, they would have to be huge celebrities, and they would have to alternate roles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj5HTUr2Ki0). :smalltongue:

:smallamused: Heh.

And Landis, Ninja, and anyone else who's watching: you're welcome to put every word I've ever said in your signatures. I won't even charge you!

Thanks.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-12, 01:24 PM

Lemme see what I can chalk up from memory really quick.

What We Have So Far:
Things:

The Empire of the New World
The Lightborn
The Gardens of Nostalgia
Norton, C.E.
"The Capital"

The Progeny of Freedom
The Imperial Senate
Politics

Firstport
"Largest City in the World"

The Academy of Steam
Trade
Immigration
Ruined Undercity

Coterois
"Speakeasy Intrigue"

Sunken Quarter
Gangs
Vampires
Cthulhu Cults
Voodoo Zombies

Mahigan
"Gateway to the West"

Werewolf Mafia
Shipping Center
Starting point for Westward immigration

Tree Island
"Gamblin' and the Law"

Famous Brothel
Famous Casino
Gunfights

San Bernardo
"Western Steamworld"

Immigrant Town
Zany steamworks

Borado
The Devout
Nuevo Borado
The Palace of the Old Gods
"Forbidden City of Gold"

Hidden by stalwart protectors
Home of the Old Gods
Ancient Secrets locked away

Platarena
"Marvel of the West"

Technological Rival to Tokarev
Desert Metropolis
Corruption and the Black Fox

Natives
Eastern
"Creole Trail of Whimpers"

Native States
Native Supply Lines
Guerrilla Tribes

Mountain
"Sacred Protectors"

Spirit Journeys
Underworld Adventures
Caravan Raids

Northwestern
"Bickering and Resilient"

Many tribes that don't get along
Imperial Hostility
Fishing and Forestry

Northern
"Frozen Whiteys"

Vinland-Esque

So... this kind of turned into a catalog of plot hooks...

I think this is what we need to do:

Make sure this list contains everything we've worked on in terms of locations and factions.
If a faction doesn't have a home, then we ought to come up with one.
We need to make sure there's a paragraph or two of flavor text for each location and faction, including a short list of notable figures.
We need to make sure we've got all the culture heroes we're going to need to get started.

I'm fairly certain there are other things we need to do too, but this should keep up tied over for now. I'll make a separate list of Culture Heroes, and we should be able to cross-reference that list with this one to figure out if we need any more cities, factions, etc.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-12, 01:27 PM

Landis963

2012-03-12, 03:31 PM

Oh yeah, I almost forgot! Landis, your insistence on adding more to the government blurb made me go back through the Eberron books for inspiration, and I think you're dead right. Each country should have its own write up, and the political structure of that country is essential to represent. We don't have to draft a constitution or anything, but we definitely need a paragraph or three.

Does that sound like anything you'd be interested in tackling? At least for the Empire? I trust your judgment 100%.

Thanks! I'd love to donate at least a paragraph towards this, and you or Ninja can augment it as you think it's needed.

Empire: Let's start with your basic framework, Zap: 10 year terms, citizenry elects Senate, Senate elects Emperor.

Votes of "no confidence": This, I think, should be in the hands of the people, not just the Senate, or at the very least they should check each other. Why don't we have it such that the people always start the vote of no confidence, and petition their representatives to remove the Emperor from his position. However, there would need to be some way for the Emperor to defend his actions (or lack thereof), so why don't we put the resulting Senate vote in the terms of an impeachment trial? The Emperor drops everything, prepares a defense, gives it to the Senate and to representatives of the press, who distribute it to the people, and then the Senate chooses, knowing that if they don't choose what the people want, his office could be in jeopardy.
Normal succession: Instead of "anyone may campaign at any time", why don't we have it such that the current Senate chair, no matter who he may be, is automatically next in line for the throne should the incumbent fail to choose a successor? That would cut down on the amount of campaign BS that plagues RL America every other year, or at least channel it away from the Emperor's seat. In this way, the Senate can wheel and deal without it affecting the Emperor too much.
Mechanisms of the Senate: First, there should be three delegates for each state: a junior, an incumbent, and a senior senator, each with one vote towards any given issue. (this comes out to 150 delegates, retaining the power of the Emperor's double vote). These three delegates themselves have three year terms, timed such that the "senior" senator is always in his last year of office and the "junior" is just starting his three-year term. The time between elected terms should be no less than 2 years. (This keeps the climate of any one political delegation from remaining stagnant).
Powers of the Emperor: At the very least, it should be "commander in chief of military powers" and "double vote on any issue facing the Senate." Should he have veto power as well? (signs point to no, as simply the double vote is a huge amount of power in any even number of delegates). And what, exactly, is his connection with the Lightborn religion?
Perks of the Emperor: DARPA (that would be Steamlabs Inc./Tokarev Industries/Mad ScienceCo.), White House-esque mansion (perhaps with a mausoleum containing the past Emperors). Should he have a summer home too? I mean, the RL president has one (deserved or not), and it's not as if there isn't space to hold it in the Empire.

And that's all for now, I think. I'll try to tackle Borado on my next post.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-12, 04:53 PM

Normal succession: Instead of "anyone may campaign at any time", why don't we have it such that the current Senate chair, no matter who he may be, is automatically next in line for the throne? That would cut down on the amount of campaign BS that plagues RL America every other year, or at least channel it away from the Emperor's seat. In this way, the Senate can wheel and deal without it affecting the Emperor too much. However, to combat every Senator having 10-year terms, I propose we have them campaign to keep their positions every other year, and then only against representatives of their home state.

I'd suggest 3 year terms for Senators, and their elections are staggered. 1/3 of the Senate is up for election one year. Then next year, another third is up. Then the last third. It lends them a grace period of 2 years where they don't have to worry about reelection and can vote how they see fit.

Perhaps the Party or Senatorial Faction with a majority picks the Chair from among their ranks, but I don't want to see the disappearance of the Emperor's choice. How could the incumbent Emperor affect this process to get the successor he wants? Political Favors?

Powers of the Emperor: At the very least, it should be "commander in chief of military powers" and "double vote on any issue facing the Senate." Should he have veto power as well? And what, exactly, is his connection with the Lightborn religion?

Huh. Going over the political map. I think I accidentally made 50 States, 51 counting the Mountain Natives Territory. That's...spooky.

Anyway, the “Double Vote”. This would be enormously powerful if there were only a few Senators per State. Should Senate seats be equal between states, like one or two per? Two votes could easily decide a deadlock if there's 200 Senators and they go half-and-half on an issue like they would just on the eve of the Kinstrife.

The Emperor should keep the military powers, but I think the Veto should be given to some sort of Supreme Court.

Perks of the Emperor: DARPA (that would be Steamlabs Inc./Tokarev Industries/Mad ScienceCo.), White House-esque mansion (perhaps with a mausoleum containing the past Emperors). Should he have a summer home too? I mean, the RL president has one (deserved or not), and it's not as if there isn't space to hold it in the Empire.

The Imperial Mansion. First designed by John Mason (T Jefferson, I will write up soon) it was a technological wonder when first constructed using the finest clockwork and lightning powered devices. Somewhat dated at present, the Mansion is still an architectural wonder. Under the mansion one can find the Imperial Vault, where every Emperor is allowed an honored place of burial. While some have declined the honor, it has never been denied to anyone. Emperor Jonathon Norton himself resides in a colossal marble tomb set at the Vault's center, directly under his statue in the Entrance Hall. There is no set Imperial Summer Home, but there's nothing stopping an Emperor from returning to his citizen residence for periods of time.

In RL, if you ever have a chance to take a tour of the real Capitol building, there is a tomb in the Catacombs where George Washington was supposed to be buried. It lies directly under the Dome. Washington's estate decided against moving his body there however, preferring to leave it at Mount Vernon.

Landis963

2012-03-13, 01:24 AM

I'd suggest 3 year terms for Senators, and their elections are staggered. 1/3 of the Senate is up for election one year. Then next year, another third is up. Then the last third. It lends them a grace period of 2 years where they don't have to worry about reelection and can vote how they see fit.

Perhaps the Party or Senatorial Faction with a majority picks the Chair from among their ranks, but I don't want to see the disappearance of the Emperor's choice. How could the incumbent Emperor affect this process to get the successor he wants? Political Favors?

Added, and fixed. Thanks for the edits.

Anyway, the “Double Vote”. This would be enormously powerful if there were only a few Senators per State. Should Senate seats be equal between states, like one or two per? Two votes could easily decide a deadlock if there's 200 Senators and they go half-and-half on an issue like they would just on the eve of the Kinstrife.

The Emperor should keep the military powers, but I think the Veto should be given to some sort of Supreme Court.

Added note to this effect in main Empire post, but haven't added anything on the Supreme Court yet. Maybe for another time.

The Imperial Mansion. First designed by John Mason (T Jefferson, I will write up soon) it was a technological wonder when first constructed using the finest clockwork and lightning powered devices. Somewhat dated at present, the Mansion is still an architectural wonder. Under the mansion one can find the Imperial Vault, where every Emperor is allowed an honored place of burial. While some have declined the honor, it has never been denied to anyone. Emperor Jonathon Norton himself resides in a colossal marble tomb set at the Vault's center, directly under his statue in the Entrance Hall. There is no set Imperial Summer Home, but there's nothing stopping an Emperor from returning to his citizen residence for periods of time.

In RL, if you ever have a chance to take a tour of the real Capitol building, there is a tomb in the Catacombs where George Washington was supposed to be buried. It lies directly under the Dome. Washington's estate decided against moving his body there however, preferring to leave it at Mount Vernon.

Interesting. I don't think I've been inside those catacombs, or at the very least I don't remember being inside them. May I suggest that Mr. Mason is one of Jameson's greatest idols, because of his achievements with clockwork?

Landis963

2012-03-13, 02:07 AM

Borado:

This is slightly more difficult than the Empire because of the relative lack of framework: Viejo Borado is obviously a theocracy, but we don't have much of a picture of Nuevo Borado other than the alien artifacts in Platarena and the fact that they split off from the Old Boradoans after a perceived close-mouthed-ness.

Viejo Borado
As mentioned, a theocracy, as the departure of the deities which made it a deitocracy has been covered up by the priests.
All I can think of is some pyramid scheme with a public High Priest with attendants, who themselves have attendants, and so on for a couple of levels. I'll try this again when finals aren't on the brain, in the meantime, you can add details as you see fit.
Nuevo Borado
The presence of Blackfox in Platarena suggests a Robin-Hood esque divide between "rich" and "poor" in Nuevo Borado, which leads me to believe that the "upper classes" are hoarding most (if not all) of the technological benefits derived from the alien technology.
Thus, there is a "technocracy" in place, with those with the most alien tech able to enforce their desires upon the populace. Thus, Blackfox is unique in that he eschews an excess of gadgets, instead relying on his wits and physical strength. (can't remember if he had a whip or not).

EDIT: How do you make lesser bullet points?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-13, 02:08 AM

Interesting. I don't think I've been inside those catacombs, or at the very least I don't remember being inside them. May I suggest that Mr. Mason is one of Jameson's greatest idols, because of his achievements with clockwork?

The catacombs are pretty cool from what I remember (my class got to see a lot of the capitol on my trip there because the Pres and Congress were all out for break). Lots of arches and such, and then Washington's "Tomb", this huge friggin' marble casket in the center directly under the rotunda. It's cool.

As for Jameson's idol: Why not? I'm just writing a treatment on the Four Saints at the moment. Expect it in the next day or so. I also think Tokarev would be a fan of Abus Politus (the Franklin stand-in) in the same way Jameson respects Mason.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-15, 04:55 PM

Just popping up on here to let you guys know that I haven't disappeared or anything. I'm coming into the final turn on my other campaign setting, and I'm really pushing to churn out ideas to get it all wrapped up. I may be pretty sparse on this thread until that happens (probably sometime by the end of next week), but I'm definitely reading everything you guys are posting.

The only criticism I'll give at this point is to look to already-published works when you're thinking about your write up for politics etc. While you're brainstorming, you're free to get as deep and involved as you'd like, but be sure to boil it down into something concise and effective when it comes time to type up the final draft.

You two are doin' me proud. :smallbiggrin:

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-15, 06:31 PM

We can win no laurels in a war for independence. Earlier and worthier hands have gathered them all. Nor are there places for us ... [as] the founders of states. Our fathers have filled them. But there remains to us a great duty of defense and preservation. ~ Daniel Webster

Below are two of the Four Saints. I'm actually having trouble writing John Mason (Jefferson) and William Proteus (John Adams) because of the vagueness we decided upon for the Old World. However, I was able to piece together two. I hope these entertain, if nothing else.

Albus Politus Ben Franklin
Albus Politus would eventually be world renowned as an author, printer, political theorist, politician, postmaster, scientist, musician, inventor, satirist, civic activist, statesman, and diplomat . But at first he was a lowly minister's son in Trimountaine, the most northerly of the New World Colonies that would one day form the Empire. His father was a minister of an Old World church, and had been training his son to go into the same profession. Instead, Albus ran away from home and never looked back. He finally settled in Firstport, and began making a name for himself as a printer and publisher. His first work was his own, Albus' Tome, an almanac of useful spells, new scientific discoveries, astronomy and satirical tales Albus picked up while he traveled.

His work was widespread in short order due to growing trade routes between the colonies, and because he was considered enormously clever by his readers. While his works were distributed, his mind never stopped. Albus devised, supposedly while in the bath, a system of communication using fast riders that would eventually become the Imperial Postal Office. He also developed a stove that could ignite and be put out instantly with a simple hand-clap. His work on lightning and electricity moved the technology of clockwork forward by decades, and at the height of his scientific accomplishments Albus created the first Ironmen.

While the Ironmen were hailed as a magnificent scientific advancement, Albus was cautious. Later in life he would devote most of his time to the first Abolitionist Movement, his own creation.

For all these advancements as well as his philosophical treaties, Albus became the most recognized New Worlder in the World. He became the Colonial Representative to the Old World Parliament, and served their for many years, touring the capitols and making himself generally well-liked. He made fast friends with kings and courtiers alike who rather enjoyed his humor, as well as his inability to take himself too seriously. During his travels, Albus noted one of the Crown's other colonies, Finnegal. He was appalled by the sheer, brutal poverty that the people lived in and he saw at once that this would be the fate of his own homeland soon. He pushed the thought out of his mind, but it refused to vacate entirely.

But it was also during this time that radical movements within the colonies threatened revolution. While politically neutral, Albus enjoyed his well-earned status too much to openly side with his people. And then the letters arrived. Albus never revealed who, but someone had sent him a series of letters between the Royal Governor of Trimountaine and the Crown, detailing plans to seize weapons and magic items from the colonial populace. Without hesitation Albus made the letters public knowledge, printing them the same night he received them. Within days of the publication, riots broke out in the New World, and the Vampire Lords brought Albus up to Parliament. He was lambasted for 4 hours by enraged Vampire Lords who called him every obscenity imaginable. He was called a 'villain', a 'traitor', and a fool. For 4 hours he was publicly humiliated by those people he once thought he wanted to be like. When he enterd Parliament that day, he had been a Loyalist. He left it four hours later, a Rebel.

Returning home to the New World, he began to hunt for allies. The Colonial Congress was being called to determine what to do about the swiftly souring relationship with the Old World. Albus enlisted the aid of several rebellious souls and intellectuals in pushing for independence. He worked as a puppet-master for years, but in the end the resolution was drafted.

Albus was sent back to the Old World where he worked as a diplomat. Now however, he stayed at the courts of those nations with a grudge against his new nation's former master. It took all of his skills, but after a decisive victory at Siopot, Firstport, he had the political fortunes to force the revolution to become a World War.

The war ended in victory and Albus returned home. He could have been elected Emperor, but he said that he, being 90 at the time, was too old and blessed his friend and fellow revolutionary Jonathan Norton with the throne. There is no place of burial for Albus Politus. It is said that he vanished one day in the flash of a lightning storm.

In character, Albus was very unlike his fellow 'Saints'. He was highly irreverent, known for exceedingly bawdy humor, and generally believed that society itself could use a bit of a loosening once in a while. He was described once as being 'Every man's favorite grandfather'. Albus was known for a hedonistic lifestyle, tempered at times by a wit sharper than any blade.

His family life was less glorious. His only son, George, never liked him, and the feeling was reciprocated. Later in life Albus tried time and time again to reconcile with his son. It never succeeded. George Politus was a Royal Governor at the time of the revolution and refused to switch sides. George's son, William was a different matter. William loved his grandfather, and Albus was known for doting on him and trying to make a lasting connection there. William moved in with his grandfather some ten years after the revolution to care for him.

Jonathan Norton George Washington

Jonathan Norton is best remembered as the first Emperor, who led the Empire to victory in the Revolution and who kept the nation from collapsing afterward. He was born to wealthy parents near modern day Norton CE, and lived a fairly carefree childhood on their plantation. He grew into a strapping young lad and soon found work as a prospector, going out into the wilderness and mapping it for others. He also learned how to hunt and shoot. When war broke out in the Old World, Norton joined up with the local militia to serve against the Natives who allied themselves with the enemy nations. In this war, young Norton achieved great honors among the colonials, becoming the most decorated colonial soldier of the war. He was also well known afterward by the Natives as 'The Destroyer' for his efficiency in combat. He was snubbed by the Vampire commanders however. He was mortal, and so despite his skills they refused to grant him an officer rank.

After the war he settled down and became a gentleman farmer. He was well known for his excellent harvests and fair trade prices, as well as his near-perfect manner. Norton was known to have turned his cheek when personally insulted, but wrathful when he saw another person belittled. Another title he seemed to earn around his home was 'giant killer' for his intolerance of those who insulted or harmed others in his presence.

When the revolution began in earnest, Norton was called upon to serve as General of the Armies. He was, after all, the most experienced colonial in the ways of war. For several years he waged a bitter campaign. In the first year, his army was decimated by desertions and disease, as well as combat. He barely clung on through the winter. His army, hardened and made lean through this hardship did win a surprising victory in the midst of winter. After this, he rarely directly engaged in combat, preferring to strike from the shadows and morning mists. Even this wasn't enough at times, for his army was still far smaller and less experienced that his foe. In his most humiliating battle, Norton watched as his army fled the field at the very sight of the enemy. His rage, so carefully kept in check his whole life, finally broke through. He unleashed a savage fury so intense upon his fleeing men, calling “Stand Fast! Stand fast! Cowards! Cowards and traitors!” that the enemy army was too intimidated to fire.

Norton was also a master of deception, using guerrilla tactics, spies and assassins, and even simple sabotage to hinder the enemy. He survived one harsh winter by tricking his foe into believing his army was twice its actual size, intimidating them from attacking til spring, whereupon they would discover he had slipped away.

After the Battle of Siopot however, suddenly Norton had a fighting chance. Foreign aid in the form of weapons and armor and allies flooded into the colonies. With such support he was finally able to go on the offensive, driving the enemy from the continent and securing victory after many years of war.

After the war, Norton sought to remain in charge of the army only until a provisional government had been set up. When it had, he retired to his farms. After a while though the first government appeared to be faltering. It lacked the kind of power that was needed in a centralized government. The army was on the brink of revolt and threatened to dismantle the nation entirely. Norton returned to speak with the commanders and begged them not to do so. They weren't swayed. So, Norton pulled out a letter to read to them from the Directorate (the pre-Imperial ruling body), hoping that their words of comfort to the soldiers would prevent the coup. When he could not read the letter, Norton took out his reading spectacles and apologized, saying that he had lost his eyesight in service to the Empire. Before he was even finished he saw his men weeping openly for him, and knew the coup had been prevented.

A restructuring of the new Government did come to pass soon afterward, but the aging Albus Politus refused the throne, instead offering it to Norton. Norton eventually agreed and served for ten years as Emperor. Though he was begged to remain in power indefinitely, Norton retired forever after that. He would die almost a year later, leaving behind an Empire.

The Anarresti

2012-03-16, 09:06 AM

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-16, 12:20 PM

You know, if you want to make this really American, an Empire just isn't going to cut it. What is America without the Constitution or Democracy?
What I'm saying is that there are a couple things that really define America

1. Egalitarianism: The lack of nobility (social class runs from working class to gentry, no serfs or nobles), the existence of democracy (to varying degrees, depending on who has suffrage), the belief in rags-to-riches stories.

...EDIT-EDIT: Whoops, read more deeply. I would suggest, then, changing the name of the chief executive from the Emperor to the Patritian. Emperor has to much of a noble feel, in my mind. And, even if it isn't actually an Empire, the Imperials wouldn't call it such, not if they're American-esq.
Oh, and calling a secret society the "Rectorum?" Seriously? That just opens up way too much space for "Girard's Rift" type jokes.

First off, I have to say that I'm very hesitant to go into much detail about the political structure of this setting. I understand the rules about political discussion on this board--and I'm confident that we won't get into anything would compromise them--but all the same we're walking on thin ice.

That said, I wanted this to be an example of American Myth moreso than America itself. In the beginning, I didn't care whether we represented the U.S. or not, but that's where it's gone and I don't have a problem with it.

However, I also want to keep this within the realm of fantasy. The "Empire" thing is an artifact of this possibly being a medieval setting, and since we've moved away from it I don't think it would be such a big deal to change it to democracy or something.

An empire for this setting doesn't seem like such a big deal. Granted, it's not the most linguistically accurate term for the republic that this is shaping up to be. Maybe it's because of things like the Empire State or something, but I feel strangely drawn to calling this an empire. At the same time, I think the phenomenon of "united states," i.e. independent states that are united by an overarching government, is similar to the idea of an empire, which is why I originally chose the name.

The only problem I have with changing "Emperor" to "Patritian" is that you would have to change "Empire" to something equivalent. "Patria" seems like the most likely candidate, but it's being used right now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193582). I'm completely open to discussion to figure out something that would work, though. :smallsmile:

2. Diversity: the entire place is a melting pot, creating new cultures by synthesizing the old. So, new cultures such as a vibrant post-enslavement culture among one race, a self-sustaining half-breed population, that kind of thing.

This may be another thing that you understood differently after reading a little more, but I feel like we have this covered. Nothing's been set in stone just yet, but here are the different cultures that have made a mark on the New World thus far:

Natives: The original gangstas. Within this group are 4 distinct cultures, each with their own relationship to the Empire and Borado and one another.
Boradoans: Southern Natives who have a distinct culture and stick to their guns in the defense of their territory.
Nuevo Borado: A breakaway faction of the Boradoans that seeks to be as advanced as the Empire, but using their own means.
Lightborn: the non-expansive puritans who just wanted a place to live free from the religious tyranny of the Old World.
Imperials: a wave of immigrants that came over when it became clear that the New World was a place of gigantic potential regardless of religious belief.
Jamatu: Probably came over around the same time as the Imperials, but on different ships, settling in different places. These guys mingled with the Natives to create their own race and culture.
Expansionists: These are the pioneers who went out in search of the far reaches of the New World, and they had a marked effect on the mentality of all Imperials. Manifest Destiny at its finest.
Steam Technology: This could be a revision of Imperial culture, or a culture unto itself.
Ironmen: Disenfranchised former slaves who find themselves with all the potential in the world and very little opportunity to actualize it.

That's 9 cultures, and we're not even done yet! We've hinted at some kind of Russian-esque culture to the far Northwest and a Vinland-esque culture to the far Northeast, and I'd like to see some kind of China analog near San Bernardo, possibly even to the point of renaming the city.

At the end of the day, I would be okay if we only had these cultures. We could theoretically publish as-is, leaving plenty of room for expansions. I think we're building a setting, which--for all its similarities--is not a simulation. I'm shooting for the Reader's Digest U.S. History. No hatin' or anything, but I'm not sure what else to say here.

3. Progress-Orientated: Americans are always looking for the Next Big Thing, and throughout our history we have always been forgetful of history. We like to make things the world has never seen before, and usually much less skeptical of the new than others are. This also means that the existance of a frontier is very important. It is said that Britian has mourned the loss of the Empire for 50 years. If that is so, than America has mourned the loss of the frontier for 100 years.

Like you said, I feel we have this covered. Tokarev and Nuevo Borado are the two finest examples.

Oh, and calling a secret society the "Rectorum?" Seriously? That just opens up way too much space for "Girard's Rift" type jokes.

As in "damn near killed 'em"? :smalltongue: That was a very quick placeholder for something we would elaborate on at a later date. I think it needs work, too.

The Anarresti

2012-03-16, 01:28 PM

Yes on a more throughout reading, you do seem to have the bases well covered. But, what is the difference between "American Myth" and "American History?" Probably due to the young age of the country, the line between the two becomes blurred?
Any hope of a homegrown religion or movement, like a Mormon-equivalent?
And to what extend where you hoping to make this setting? Have you made a map of the continent yet? As seen with The Giant's setting, geography can often shape culture and vice-versa.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-16, 02:20 PM

I believe we have 3 maps in the OP!

On Myth vs. History: Originally I had intended to focus more on myth, but it's become a project that's focused a little more on history. Long story short, I'm okay with this. However, I would love to see more mythic elements. I have missed a good representation of Bigfoot, and a few others that I can't recall at the moment.

Mormons are totally OK in my book. Care to give them a write-up?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-16, 04:03 PM

Viejo Borado
As mentioned, a theocracy, as the departure of the deities which made it a deitocracy has been covered up by the priests.
All I can think of is some pyramid scheme with a public High Priest with attendants, who themselves have attendants, and so on for a couple of levels. I'll try this again when finals aren't on the brain, in the meantime, you can add details as you see fit.

I think we can add an interesting twist. How about instead of a Theocracy with a single High Priest, Viejo Borado is ruled by something resembling an Executive Council or Oligarchy of Priests? Among this class there could even be elections and such. They see themselves as an Order of Knights given a sacred task, and so any hierarchy isn't set in stone, since seniority and capability trumps technical position.

Nuevo Borado
The presence of Blackfox in Platarena suggests a Robin-Hood esque divide between "rich" and "poor" in Nuevo Borado, which leads me to believe that the "upper classes" are hoarding most (if not all) of the technological benefits derived from the alien technology.
Thus, there is a "technocracy" in place, with those with the most alien tech able to enforce their desires upon the populace. Thus, Blackfox is unique in that he eschews an excess of gadgets, instead relying on his wits and physical strength. (can't remember if he had a whip or not).

I rather like the idea of Nuevo Borado being ruled by a Santa Anna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_L%C3%B3pez_de_Santa_Anna ) type military dictatorship, or more precisely, an Allende (http://reddead.wikia.com/wiki/Agustin_Allende ) style. Very pro-industry, pro-technology, just not a particularly idealistic regime, and thus one that believes people need to be herded, rather than led. With a stronghanded government in power, and going with your idea of a rich-poor divide, the Blackfox and others, such as a Pancho Villa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa ) stand-in, have a lot more to work with.

Landis963

2012-03-16, 09:24 PM

I think we can add an interesting twist. How about instead of a Theocracy with a single High Priest, Viejo Borado is ruled by something resembling an Executive Council or Oligarchy of Priests? Among this class there could even be elections and such. They see themselves as an Order of Knights given a sacred task, and so any hierarchy isn't set in stone, since seniority and capability trumps technical position.

Ooh, I like it! Would each priest be well-versed in a particular area of society so that they can work together to pilot their society?

I rather like the idea of Nuevo Borado being ruled by a Santa Anna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_L%C3%B3pez_de_Santa_Anna ) type military dictatorship, or more precisely, an Allende (http://reddead.wikia.com/wiki/Agustin_Allende ) style. Very pro-industry, pro-technology, just not a particularly idealistic regime, and thus one that believes people need to be herded, rather than led. With a stronghanded government in power, and going with your idea of a rich-poor divide, the Blackfox and others, such as a Pancho Villa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa ) stand-in, have a lot more to work with.

Could the priests of Viejo Borado be funding the Pancho Villa-analogue and making sure Blackfox gets intel that destabilizes the Allende regime? With the eventual hope that they reunify?

EDIT: Oh, and if you would please follow the link in my sig to the new and improved link to my campaign world thread? I'd greatly appreciate it.

The Anarresti

2012-03-17, 09:34 AM

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-18, 08:06 PM

Ooh, I like it! Would each priest be well-versed in a particular area of society so that they can work together to pilot their society?

Since we decided earlier to use Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231615) as this world's System, how about we split the priesthood up into Orders, each corresponding to a class of magic? In Legend, we have Creation, Evocation, Divination and Transmutation. I'm thinking Divination would always be the Highest ranking Order, Transmutation would be the head of all Construction/City-Planning/Building projects within VB, with Evocation and Creation fighting it out in clerical disputes (some violent, some diplomatic) as to which is superior. Perhaps it isn't even that laid out, with VB on the brink of religious civil war at a moment's notice (not too far off from RL Mexican history).

Could the priests of Viejo Borado be funding the Pancho Villa-analogue and making sure Blackfox gets intel that destabilizes the Allende regime? With the eventual hope that they reunify?

While I can see Pseudo-Pancho Villa (Esteban Echevarria?) being funded and aided by VB, Blackfox shouldn't need their help. As close as he is to the Zorro figure, he would instead simply pass for a wealthy idiot friend of the Nuevo Presidente-Generalismo Doroteo (from Pancho Villa's real middle name). It's like if Gerald Ford put on a batman disguise at night and beat up Nixon's body guards :smallbiggrin: .

And another thing: Do the Viejo Boradoans want to reunify? We know the Nuevos probably don't (minus a fringe group of warhawks who want to reclaim the Palace of the Old Gods) since they wanted to break apart in the first part. The Nuevos are outcasts to the Viejos however. What would they gain by bringing the Heretics back into the fold? Especially considering the Nuevos probably won't willingly cast aside their technology gained through study. All it is is a recipe for a violent second civil war down the line.

Landis963

2012-03-18, 09:43 PM

Since we decided earlier to use Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231615) as this world's System, how about we split the priesthood up into Orders, each corresponding to a class of magic? In Legend, we have Creation, Evocation, Divination and Transmutation. I'm thinking Divination would always be the Highest ranking Order, Transmutation would be the head of all Construction/City-Planning/Building projects within VB, with Evocation and Creation fighting it out in clerical disputes (some violent, some diplomatic) as to which is superior. Perhaps it isn't even that laid out, with VB on the brink of religious civil war at a moment's notice (not too far off from RL Mexican history).

Sounds good.

While I can see Pseudo-Pancho Villa (Esteban Echevarria?) being funded and aided by VB, Blackfox shouldn't need their help. As close as he is to the Zorro figure, he would instead simply pass for a wealthy idiot friend of the Nuevo Presidente-Generalismo Doroteo (from Pancho Villa's real middle name). It's like if Gerald Ford put on a batman disguise at night and beat up Nixon's body guards :smallbiggrin: .

That is a great mental image. I'd just like you to know. Also Generalissimo Dorotea and Esteban Echevarria are great names.

And another thing: Do the Viejo Boradoans want to reunify? We know the Nuevos probably don't (minus a fringe group of warhawks who want to reclaim the Palace of the Old Gods) since they wanted to break apart in the first part. The Nuevos are outcasts to the Viejos however. What would they gain by bringing the Heretics back into the fold? Especially considering the Nuevos probably won't willingly cast aside their technology gained through study. All it is is a recipe for a violent second civil war down the line.

Maybe some idealistic members of the Viejo Borado priesthood have hopes that they will repent and return to the fold, but otherwise, no, that does seem implausible.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-18, 10:23 PM

Also Generalissimo Dorotea and Esteban Echevarria are great names.

Dorotea was just Pancho Villa's first middle name, and I liked using it for a character he'd actually fight against. Echevarria is a Basque name seen a lot in Hispanic-influenced cultures due to the prevalence of Basque sailors in the Spanish Conquistador Armies. I know way too much obscure history :smalltongue:.

Maybe some idealistic members of the Viejo Borado priesthood have hopes that they will repent and return to the fold, but otherwise, no, that does seem implausible.

So then we got a situation a lot like in Star Trek with the Romulans and Vulcans (playing far too much Star Trek Online recently, please indulge). Essentially, there's too much bad blood to ever really reunify, but there are still a few idealists among each party who strive towards that goal even while being thwarted by the much larger anti-unification parties.

Cool. Glad we got that sorted. What else were we on about?

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-19, 09:57 AM

Ha-cha! Lots of activity while I was away!

Summary
Borado:

Nuevo
Pancho Villa Esteban Echevarria (The Blackfox?) and Santa Anna Generalissimo Doroteo: American History was never something I was interested in while I was in school, so I trust your judgement on this. If Nuevo Borado is going to be the analog that I picture, it needs something equivalent to a gold mine (Old Gods technology), officials that preach ideals and practice corruption (not all of them need to be this way), and a figure that opposes that mentality against all odds (Blackfox). Just to be clear on what you're saying:

Echevarria is secretly the Blackfox.
Doroteo is friends with Echevarria.
Doroteo doesn't know the true identity of the Blackfox.
The Blackfox is opposed to Doroteo.

Am I getting that right?

Viejo
I like the idea of a priest caste, but not the idea of permanent settlements amongst these guys. Semipermanent is okay, and maybe they have one permanent city, but for the most part I want them to be nomads. That means Transmutation is going to have to be shifted, but other than that it's no biggie.

As far as inter-culture conflict is concerned, I think I'm okay with that. I'd rather the Viejo Boradoans be united at least publicly, however, because they're all equally terrified of devoted to their gods. Maybe there's some backstabbing going on behind the scenes, but for some reason that doesn't seem to fit with our image of them as noble wanderers.

Nuevo vs. Viejo
I like the Romulans vs. Vulcans angle. Maybe there are individuals who are from either camp who believe in unification, but the voices of those people are drowned out by the masses (in Viejo they call for the death of Nuevo without actually attacking because they're too busy guarding their holy site, and in Nuevo they are too busy cracking the code of their own stuff to bother trying to get to the Viejo ruins) or something. I also picture small groups of people (maybe just individuals) defecting to and from the different cultures every now and then.

As far as what we've got and what we still have to do, I'd like to focus just a little bit more on these guys to make sure we have everything covered, then shift to define the Natives a little more clearly. After that, we might be ready to start putting all this stuff together in final draft format!

A long time ago in the OP, I had named the religious/scientific research faction amongst the Nuevo Boradoans as the "Temple of the Heavenly Host." I'm picturing something like the Covenant from Halo, copying and sanctifying the technology of a bygone civilization. I'll try to write something up about this today.

Omeganaut

2012-03-19, 03:12 PM

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-19, 04:00 PM

Echevarria is secretly the Blackfox.
Doroteo is friends with Echevarria.
Doroteo doesn't know the true identity of the Blackfox.
The Blackfox is opposed to Doroteo.

Am I getting that right?

Technically I suggested a Zorro figure and a Poncho Villa figure, but if you would rather merge them into a super-zoro-villa character, I have no problem. I leave it up to you.

Viejo
I like the idea of a priest caste, but not the idea of permanent settlements amongst these guys. Semipermanent is okay, and maybe they have one permanent city, but for the most part I want them to be nomads. That means Transmutation is going to have to be shifted, but other than that it's no biggie.

As far as inter-culture conflict is concerned, I think I'm okay with that. I'd rather the Viejo Boradoans be united at least publicly, however, because they're all equally terrified of devoted to their gods. Maybe there's some backstabbing going on behind the scenes, but for some reason that doesn't seem to fit with our image of them as noble wanderers.

Considering that Mexico City is the largest Metropolitan Area in the Western Hemisphere, Viejo's capital needs to be something awe-inspiring. While it is very low-tech, Protectora is a vast city built as a gigantic “shield” around the Palace of the Old Gods. The rest of their settlements are a mix of tent cities and ancient cave cities that are uninhabited part of the time. Part of the conflict between Viejo and Nuevo is that Nuevo's capitol is a much smaller example of the Gods' sorcery-tech. It's basically jealousy. Think of what they could learn if only they had the resources of those Luddites in Protectora!

Now, just speaking from experience, a monolithic force like the Viejo Priestly Orders that's publicly united but privately suffering from Chronic Backstabbing Disorder (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicBackstabbingDisorder ) feels an awful lot like the RL Catholic Church, historically a major force in Mexican politics. Not going to bring this up more, and not trying to derail, but being a Catholic, I'm surprised when people think that the church is united on anything. Yeah, the guy in the nice hat says one thing, but beneath him are dozens of clerical Orders (read: Parties) that can and do believe in wildly different things. What I'm saying is that having the Viejo Priests act one way to save face, and then turn around and in-fight in secret is completely in character.

As far as what we've got and what we still have to do, I'd like to focus just a little bit more on these guys to make sure we have everything covered, then shift to define the Natives a little more clearly. After that, we might be ready to start putting all this stuff together in final draft format!

Final draft of the whole setting? Oh wow. Are we that far along? I'm shocked, and sad. :smalleek: :smallbiggrin: :smallfrown:

I also believe the Boradoans have a tenuous alliance against the Republicans, should their lands be encroached on. After all, that nation is mighty and has powerful technology. More of a truce to avoid weakening each other than a true alliance, but still. Plus, people with significant differences working together is a big archetype in American folk legends and modern fantasy.

Actually, depending on how closely we're mirroring history, a war between the Empire and the Boradoans has probably already happened. I say that because we're already in the post-Kinstrife era, and before the RL Civil War there was the Mexican-American War. I'll let Zap decide what's what on that.

Zap Dynamic

2012-03-19, 04:12 PM

I also believe the Boradoans have a tenuous alliance against the Republicans, should their lands be encroached on. After all, that nation is mighty and has powerful technology. More of a truce to avoid weakening each other than a true alliance, but still. Plus, people with significant differences working together is a big archetype in American folk legends and modern fantasy.

A truce is a good idea. I like "Republic/Republicans" even less that "Patria/Patricians" though, just because "Republicans" are already present in the States today, and I'd rather avoid using the names of any modern real-world groups.

Having had some time to think about it, I'd like to stick with "Empire." Not only is it what we're used to already, but we've also established a couple of imperial precedents. Chief among them is the use of "Norton" as the capital/first Emperor. That hat-tip only makes sense if the governing body is an empire.

Ninjadeadbeard just ninja'd my post. How apt.

Pancho Villa/Blackfox: I'm fine with keeping them separate, I just wasn't following exactly what you guys had hashed out. So if we keep them separate, then Echevarria and Doroteo become a corrupt bad guy-duo that the Blackfox is out to destroy? And (to help preserve the Zorro stuff), Blackfox is the secret identity of some other wealthy Boradoan noble? Because that sounds pretty awesome to me.

Protectora: After reading this, I'm MUCH more okay with a big city for Viejo Borado. I think the Palace of the Old Gods is going to have to be much smaller than I had at first thought (like, maybe the size of a football field instead of 5-6 football fields), but it's totally doable. I'm picturing the city as a ring, maybe with walls on both sides? One to keep out invaders, and one to create a buffer between the city and the Palace (for safety's sake). The only people that cross that second wall are the priests, and the victims they lead out to be sacrificed on some big fancy altar.

Viejo Borado priests as a fusion between Mesoamerican indigenous religion and Catholicism is something I could get on board with, so long as it's more clearly the former than the latter. Cool idea!

Final Draft: I know! It seems strange, but we've got enough information put together for people to make a few adventures in most of the regions, including various local figures (both mundane and mythic). We still need a few things (the Natives stuff I mentioned, and some more culture hero write ups ), but we're close! Like I said, when I finish with the Blackwood I'll be able to devote a lot more effort to this.

[B]Borado-Imperial War: I think it should have happened just before the Kinstrife, just like in real life. In fact, it might be cool to say that it was never officially ended; the Empire simply withdrew its forces into a defensive position so it could deal with the Kinstrife, and things have since cooled off to the point of a very tenuous ceasefire that may never reignite. Cold war between alien and steam technology, anyone?

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-19, 06:18 PM

Ninjadeadbeard just ninja'd my post. How apt.

I hope you know that's going in my sig :smallamused:. If it's alright?

Protectora: After reading this, I'm MUCH more okay with a big city for Viejo Borado. I think the Palace of the Old Gods is going to have to be much smaller than I had at first thought (like, maybe the size of a football field instead of 5-6 football fields), but it's totally doable. I'm picturing the city as a ring, maybe with walls on both sides? One to keep out invaders, and one to create a buffer between the city and the Palace (for safety's sake). The only people that cross that second wall are the priests, and the victims they lead out to be sacrificed on some big fancy altar.

Viejo Borado priests as a fusion between Mesoamerican indigenous religion and Catholicism is something I could get on board with, so long as it's more clearly the former than the latter. Cool idea!

Yeah, a second wall system sounds good. Should the Altar be built right up against the “Palace's” energy shield? It might be an interesting twist for PCs to watch a sacrifice walk into a shimmering veil and appear to vanish in a puff of dust.

Final Draft: I know! It seems strange, but we've got enough information put together for people to make a few adventures in most of the regions, including various local figures (both mundane and mythic). We still need a few things (the Natives stuff I mentioned, and some more culture hero write ups ), but we're close! Like I said, when I finish with the Blackwood I'll be able to devote a lot more effort to this.

I think we can keep on making figures until we use up all the possible ideas. I was thinking actually of writing up an NPC Adventuring team to compete with PC's or work as powerful allies. I see them a lot like the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but couched in this world's lore.

[B]Borado-Imperial War: I think it should have happened just before the Kinstrife, just like in real life. In fact, it might be cool to say that it was never officially ended; the Empire simply withdrew its forces into a defensive position so it could deal with the Kinstrife, and things have since cooled off to the point of a very tenuous ceasefire that may never reignite. Cold war between alien and steam technology, anyone?

Oh yes. A thousand times yes. Zeppelins Versus Saucers! Place your bets! :smallbiggrin:

Landis963

2012-03-20, 11:53 PM

Yeah, a second wall system sounds good. Should the Altar be built right up against the “Palace's” energy shield? It might be an interesting twist for PCs to watch a sacrifice walk into a shimmering veil and appear to vanish in a puff of dust.

Ooh! Ooh! Have the altar be half-in, half-out of the shield, and then when a sacrifice is instructed to walk to the center of the altar, they are vaporized half-way there. Or it oscillates somehow between two different shapes or sizes, with the intent that sacrifices would be brought into the ship to be used, but with the alien gods not there to facilitate the process, the sacrifice just gets vaporized when the shield changes. Of course, the Priests never see this, as they think the assumption of the sacrifice by their god is too holy for mortal eyes or something.

I think we can keep on making figures until we use up all the possible ideas. I was thinking actually of writing up an NPC Adventuring team to compete with PC's or work as powerful allies. I see them a lot like the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but couched in this world's lore.

I personally would loooove to see this. Especially if, in a particular game, they get built up as a rogues gallery.

Oh yes. A thousand times yes. Zeppelins Versus Saucers! Place your bets! :smallbiggrin:

Personally, my bet's on the Saucers, as they will probably be quicker than the Zeppelins and maybe with better weapons as well. Regardless of design (which may negate any in-atmo speed or firepower advantage), they'll be made of metal, and Zeppelins... won't.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-03-21, 01:41 PM

I personally would loooove to see this. Especially if, in a particular game, they get built up as a rogues gallery.

:smallamused: Wish granted.

The Gentlemen.

A team of operatives, each a legend in their filed, who have been brought together for a single purpose: Protect the world from the forces that would threaten it. They work in shadows, for The Light. Specifically, they are a single Cell in a secret branch of the Imperial government whose duties sometimes put them at odds with the official government. That is, they are tasked with maintaining the balance of power in the New World, even if that means slowing the Imperial advance. Their primary foes are Cthuloid Monstrosities, Vampires, various Monsters, and occasionally Anarchists of every stripe.

Membership

Jameson
Race: Imperial
Asset: Resources
Not technically a member, but he was the one who formed the Gentlemen, realizing Dr Tokarev's idea of such a team. Tokarev himself thought it would be a good idea for there to be a team of such vigilantes, but he ultimately decided such a thing would be unethical. Jameson, not so much. Jameson is a secret member of the Shadow Empire, the other secret society whose actions secretly run the whole Empire. Secretly. As such, he possesses the resources and contacts to make such a team of operatives feasible, if not desirable.

Harry Petaint, aka “Le Sorcellerie ”
Race: Imperial Jamatu
Asset: Clockwork/Steampunk Mastery
Mr Petaint was the youngest son in a family of wizards, and the only one not to inherent any magic powers of his own. Practically disowned by his family after age 15, Petaint dedicated his life to proving himself worthy, even without magic. He proved to be brilliant while attending school and quickly made a name for himself as a “Wizard of Clockwork”, such was his technical abilities. As time went on he created many devices that seemed to rival magic in their application. Dr Tokarev was impressed enough to keep a correspondence with Petaint for several days until he, naturally, lost interest.

Petaint's obsession with proving himself took a turn for the worst though, when he appeared to finally snap, killing a wizard who challenged him to a duel. Petaint accepted the challenge, and then shot the wizard in the back the instant he turned around. Petaint went underground, only to reappear amidst the “Cloak and Dagger War”, the intense Spy vs Spy vs Assassin battles waged in Coterois during the Kinstrife. Petaint made a name for himself among the Imperials as their top double agent. Of course, as was common in Coterois at that time, no one actually knew where Petaint's loyalties lay. His body count, though somewhat low contained primarily high level targets on both sides of the conflict, from Colonels to Generals, politicians and other spies. He was particularly infamous for his flawless disguises, created by some means of his own devising. He could appear as anyone, and often drove his targets mad with fear before striking.

He disappeared again after the war, only to re-appear in the West, now serving Jameson as the leader of the Gentlemen.

Legend Build
Full-buy-in Multiclass Tactician/Tactical Insight/Prof Soldier/Demo-man/Mechanic Savant
(Alternate - Full buy-in Multiclass Rogue/Esoterica/Demo-man/Prof Soldier/Mechanic Savant)

Concept
Basically, a dark-skinned man with a trimmed beard and a fine suit hiding all manner of tech (including hidden-holsters in the sleeves for his pistols). The Alan Quartermain / Sean Connery of the group, and the leader.

John 'Jack Knife' Sharpes
Race: Imperial
Asset: Mastery of knives
John Sharpes grew up on the meaner side of Firstport. There he was honed like one of his knives. Life was hard on the streets, but Sharpes was determined to survive. Indeed, he flourished making a name for himself as one of the meanest, orneriest, no-good sonovabitches who ever walked the streets. He worked mostly as a thief and a mugger, but in time he also took to settling assassin contracts once the local guild realized he was just using their men as practice (he had enemies). Sharpes worked part-time as a butcher, remarking that humans and pigs weren't so different once you got right down to it. It being the brutal vivisection of an unwilling subject. Oddly, despite his bloody habits, Sharpes was considered the most courteous man in Firstport, known for politeness to women in particular, and to any man who had earned respect. He could be easily spotted in a crowd because of his clothing, a slap-dash mix of pinstripes, floral designs, checkers and a stove-pipe hat.

The descendant of revolutionaries, Sharpes developed a particularly virulent hatred for anything he believed was Un-Imperial. This included vampires, magic, technology, Jamatu, Natives, Boradoans, other Imperials, Ironmen, even the Emperor Copperton (in fact, Sharpes practically ran Firstport politics during the Kinstrife and tried several times to find candidates to run against him). Oddly, those who claim to know Sharpes will all tell you that, though he holds to his ideals with all the conviction of a saint, he seems to genuinely understand that the modern world is no place for him. He seems at times to be just looking for a noble way to die.

After Copperton fell to an assassin's blade, Sharpes hastily faked his death and left Firstport. He knew that his virulent hatred for the Emperor was well-known, and he knew that his days were numbered by his association with anti-Coppertonians. He left for greener pastures out west, and found himself promptly employed by Jameson for the Gentlemen.

Legend build
Multiclass Paladin/Judgment/Smiting/Swashbuckler (exchange Str for Dex with Multiclass Flex Feat)

Concept
The Lancer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLancer) to Petaint. Based entirely upon Daniel Day Lewis from Gangs of New York. (http://images.hollywood.com/site/bill_butcher.jpg)

Iron Jacob
Race: Ironman
Asset: Strength
Jacob was forged by the legendary Iron John himself, making Jacob technically the Martyr's Son. Only a few days old when John wore himself to death in his infamous competition, Jacob was one of the first to flee into the wilderness to enact a form of guerrilla warfare. For years they would sneak into major industrial centers, disguised as the other Ironmen. There, the resistance would sabotage equipment and steal supplies. Jacob felt this was not enough, but his people were too interwoven with the industrial complex. To harm the enemy, Jacob would have to kill his own. Rescuing them was difficult, if not impossible at times due to the countermeasures enacted against such a thing. Jacob rarely was even able to break even through escape attempts, often losing as many as he saved. He became discouraged, but when the Kinstrife began he saw an opportunity. Though the Emperor delayed in Emancipating the Ironmen due to political necessity, the Loyalist states were suddenly ordered not to arrest free Ironmen working for Jacob. Now working from a position of ample supplies and even allies, he could stage more and more daring raids against the Rebels.

As the war wore on, Jacob found his image being used for war propaganda. Signs bearing his name and likeness were issued across the Empire, calling for “All Ironmen to Rise with your Fellow! Liberation! Liberation is with Jacob!” Though newly emancipated Ironmen were indeed convinced to join the war effort, the propaganda just made Jacob's job harder. He found more and more gunmen going after his head. He apparently racked up the highest bounty ever offered by the Rebel States, even higher than Copperton's. Tales of his exploits are still passed around in the Imperial garrisons, most at least mentioning how he marched with General Mattimeo Sasquatcha Potter into the capitol of the Rebel states and left it in rubble.

When peace finally came, Jacob found he could not be happy. Though life was certainly better for his people, he could see the Empire backpedaling on certain promises made to them, leaving his people leaderless and directionless, lost in a world where they had yet to forge a path for themselves. It is unclear why exactly he left the movement to join the Gentlemen instead of leading his people, but according to classified records, there was a falling out among the Ironmen leadership. Jacob was betrayed by his own people, and left to the world.

Legend Build
Multiclass Barbarian/Sentient Construct/Path of Rage/Discipline of the Serpent
(Alternative: Utter Brute in place of Path of Rage)
(Alternative 2: Paladin/Judgment/Sentient Construct/Discipline of the Serpent)

Concept
A Genius Bruiser (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GeniusBruiser ), basically a metal Beast from Xmen. He's a beat-down machine, but one that is still recovering from some betrayal.

Rosa Maria Lorenzo Viradonde Vasquez
Race: Nuevo Boradoan
Asset: The Raw, Untapped Power of the Gods
Born to a wealthy Colonel in Nuevo Borado, Rosa never wanted for anything. She could very well have lived a long, sumptuous lifestyle for the rest of her days without worry. But she was a curious one. At an exceedingly young age she was noted for her innate talent with the machines reverse-engineered from the God's old ruins. By age fourteen she had successfully surgery on herself to replace both her arms with powerful cybernetic prosthetics built from the Gods' technology. Further experimentation cemented her status as the Boradoan Tokarev. By 16, Rosa graduated from the Military College in the capitol (on scholarship). Within a year she had jumped Nuevo Boradoan technology an entire decade forward, bringing them back up to the same level as the Empire after decades of slumping discoveries. But then things went wrong.

Viejo Borado knew of Rosa, knew what she was and what she could do. It was in their best interests to kill her. When assassins began leaping out of the woodwork, Rosa was a little bothered as they tended to interrupt her experiments. Luckily they made excellent test subjects, dead or alive. But when Viejo realized she was untouchable, they went after her family and killed her beloved father. Finally snapped out of her usual stoic-super-science-mindset, Rosa unleashed her full fury upon those responsible. Waging a silent guerilla war of her own, aided by several of her father's old military buddies and even the Blackfox (who was morally outraged at her loss) Rosa eventually caught up with the High Priest Juliato, the man who ordered her father's death. Though her father's death was meant to draw her to Viejo for an ambush, Juliato misjudged her effectiveness, and found himself dead by her hand.

But Rosa was, and is to a degree, a gentle soul. Killing in self-defense was no problem. Even killing for SCIENCE was justified considering self-defense was involved there too. But this was straight, cold-blooded murder, and she couldn't remove it from her thoughts. A little more broken than before, Rosa quietly exiled herself to the Empire, and there was picked up by Jameson. She currently serves as the Gentlemen's tracker and battlefield control.

Legend Build
Multiclass Full Buy-in Sage/Mechanic Savant/Force of Will/Bag-of-Tricks/Tactician Spell-Casting

Concept
Yeah, this is basically a slightly different flavored Kimiko Ross (http://dresdencodak.com/2012/03/09/dark-science-17/ ) with a touch of Salma Hayek from the Wild Wild West Movie.

Jackson Crowheart
Race: Native
Asset: Magic
Jackson was born into the Laqonea tribe of Natives who hailed from the cold Northwest, just south of the Achalka border. Since time immemorial the Laqonea believed that one day a being of fire would appear to them, a Huren or “Firewalker”, and would begin an age of paradise among them, free from the bitter chill of winter. Well, by the time of Jackson's birth, the tribe was sick of waiting. The Shaman of the tribe bound a creature from beyond the Veil into the body of the Chief's youngest son. As the boy grew, he seemed to become a being of raw Earthpower, that is he appeared empowered by Nature itself. The tribe was all but sure of the coming paradise.

As it turns out however, Jackson didn't take well to “old fashioned nonsense”, and considered himself a modernist. He also didn't take the news well that his soul was technically part-Demon. Feeling that his people were too close-minded and beholden to the past, Jackson left to see the world and make a name for himself in the Empire. Turns out that, despite his modern clothes, his modern hairstyle, and his modern tastes, most Imperials see him as one of the Disgruntled Natives due to his tribes anti-imperial stance. As much as he tried to distance himself from this, he couldn't help being jumped by thugs with a grudge. While initially surprised, Jackson proved to be a powerful fighter due to his powers. This put him on the run from the law however as now the Imperials were looking for a rebel Native who set some “upstanding citizens” on fire. While doing so, he was picked up by Petaint and Sharpes for the Gentlemen.

Jackson is the newest member of the Gentlemen, though not the youngest (that being Rosa). This and his mixed reception into Imperial society has left him a bit aloof and disconnected. He's unsure of who he is yet, or where his place might be.

Legend Build
Full Buy-in Shaman/Demon/(Earth, Wind, or Water) Elemental/(Fire) Elementalist/ Shaman Spell-Casting

Concept
Something like the Avatar from the Last Airbender series, but also based on Jackson Two-Bears from Cat Ballou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Ballou ), an old Jane Fonda flick that featured an Indian named Jackson whose weariness at the idiocy around him was highly entertaining.

Inter-Party Interaction
Well, to start off with, Petaint generally gets along with everyone. He considers Jacob his intellectual colleague, and is “sweet on” Rosa due to her own intelligence. He and Sharpes are diametrically opposed in most things, preferring stealth and subtlety over Sharpes usual hack-and-slash routine. He despises Jackson on the grounds that he's a magic user, but also because he sees the boy as a challenger for Rosa.

Sharpes hates Jacob (in his mind for causing the war). In contrast, he sees in Rosa the daughter he never had, and so despite her representing everything he isn't, Sharpes appears incredibly protective of her. For this reason, if nothing else, he apparently harbors nothing short of murderous fury towards Jackson. He not only speaks ill of him to the boy's face, but also puts him through his paces on almost a daily basis. Jacob has hypothesized its less that Sharpes hates Jackson, and more like he wants the boy to be properly prepared to care for Rosa when Sharpes has passed on. It's odd then that he doesn't dislike Petaint, but that might be because he doesn't think Rosa likes Petaint.

Rosa doesn't like Petaint :smalltongue: probably due to his arrogance. “If you're going to do SCIENCE,” she says, “Then do SCIENCE, don't just talk about it!” She isn't sure where she stands with Sharpes, mostly due to his rampant racism and hatred of...well...everything, but noting that he doesn't act that way around her. Jacob is a curiosity, something to be taken apart and studied. She's not a bad person, she just forgets Jacob's one from time to time due to his obvious sophistication of construction. Jackson is her best friend at the moment, mostly due to their close ages.

Jackson feels the same about Rosa. He tends to dislike Sharpes intensely (for obvious reasons), but acknowledges his superior's skill and notes that they both prefer the direct approach to a situation. Of course when he pointed out all the similarities between them, Sharpes put him through a truly brutal regimen to “beat that notion,” out of Jackson. Jackson doesn't quite understand the looks he gets from Petaint, but tries to stay out of his way all the same. Petaint for Jackson represents the very society the rejected him, and so he acts coolly around his superior. He tends to look up to Jacob, admiring his strength of character as well as finding commonality in their both being outcasts.

Jacob dislikes Sharpes intensely, for obvious reasons. He also dislikes Rosa, though he tolerates her more as she is so young. He enjoys discussions with Petaint, especially over literature and philosophy. He also notes his similarities to Jackson, and so tutors the boy, as well as actively seeking his extrication from this lifestyle, prefering no one to have to follow the path Jacob has trekked. Having seen his own people fall apart after the Kinstrife, Jacob acts as a group mediator when he can, though not always to success.