Tanking done right

[kulosle]

The "tank" build in D&D 3.5 is not really what most people consider to be a tank. In any other game, especially online games, the tanks job is too make people attack them and take the majority of damage. This is done in two ways, either making it so that the enemy literally has to fight you or that you are so annoying that they want to kill you first. The 4.0 fighter, if i remember correctly, has an ability that gives enemies a -2 to attacks when they aren't attacking the fighter. The goad feat tries to do this but what tank has the time to max out his charisma, and even if he did the dc is still low. The knight almost does this but the class sucks so much I don't think you'd want to do it. The only other method of tanking DnD has is the bracelets that lets you take half the damage for someone else, but you can only do this for two people. Or the devoted defender from 3.0 or the bodyguard fighter variant, but those are both only for one person.

Is there a way of making an good tank in 3.5?

[Eisenfavl]

Tanking in 3.5 is not 'attack me and no-one else'.

That doesn't work because a non-spellcaster has virtually no chance of surviving most barrages, like from a ubercharger or such.

What you do instead is reach-trip builds, which interrupt spells with damage (and therefor concentration checks), charges with damage and tripping, even five foot steps with damage and tripping.

The first one of these builds to ever exist is probably this one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...).

[Tvtyrant]

The crusader from ToB is possibly the best tank, especially with Kusari-gama (one handed spike chain) and a shield for some of the shield manuevers. Then Thicket of Blades lockdown time.

[Amphetryon]

You can use a Druid - specifically, the Druid's Animal Companion - as a reasonably valid "tank" build, by making the AC big and dangerous enough to make it in most enemies' best interest to attack it. Alternately, you can use a Psionic character's Psicrystal or Astral Construct for this purpose; this has the added bonus of potentially channeling the powers through the Psicrystal or Astral Construct more easily than through an Animal Companion. Do a search for "The Big Guy's With Me" for one way to do this.

In both cases, the advantage over using one of the characters for the "tank" role is in the relative ease in replacing the Animal Companion, Psicrystal, or Astral Construct, in comparison to the potential disruption of story and time in bringing in a new character, should the Tank draw more "aggro" than it can reasonably handle.

[Medic!]

The crusader from ToB is possibly the best tank, especially with Kusari-gama (one handed spike chain) and a shield for some of the shield manuevers. Then Thicket of Blades lockdown time.

Crusader comes the closest to being an out-of-the-box "tank." It's built for lockdown and has the ability to bestow penalties on opponents attacking allies instead of you in the form of -atk, provoking AoOs or flat out incurring some wrath. Combined with their ability to take more damage and channel that damage into more punishment for the baddies, it's pretty solid.

This is how I explained Crusader to our DM:
Hit me, I hit you back harder and you lose.
Hit him, I make you miss and I hit you for the effort and you lose.
Run away, I hit you and you lose.
Stand there, I hit you and you lose.
Cast a spell...well that's just obvious; I hit you and you lose.

With their randomized maneuver system, it's like spinning the Wheel of Whoopass and every stripe is sparkly green.

Toss in a spiked chain, stand-still, and improved trip, and odds are after a few sessions every creature in the world will suddenly learn how to snipe at great distances.

[FMArthur]

Crusader is the best 'tank' class in the game, but because its abilities are so easily nabbed by simply taking a delayed Crusader dip, the second best tank class becomes the one you actually want to spend most of your time in for an optimal tanking build. That would be Ardent from Complete Psionic in my opinion. Ardent also happens to be fairly multiclass-friendly if there are other things you want or if additional Crusader levels appeal to you. The two together make an incredibly durable guardian that is infuriatingly prickly to the touch.

[Manateee]

Be a Cleric.

They can soak damage, they're easy to approach to attack (unlike other casters), but difficult to land a hit on (hell of AC). And they can draw attacks by being the biggest threat in a 10 mile radius.

Or:
Be a Cleric and swarm the battlefield with undead things and summons, until the baddies don't have a place left to stand.

EDIT:
And either way, you can hold onto the tank's melee schtick by whacking some things with a sword or spear every now and then.

[Rubik]

A buff-focused wizard with the Wild Cohort feat (for a war beast animal companion) also excels at this, especially if he focuses on transmutation and starts early-entry to get into war weaver (and takes Ocular Spell to turn self-only spells into party buffs) to directly protect all of his friends and buff his animal at the same time.

[Luka]

The crusader from ToB is possibly the best tank, especially with Kusari-gama (one handed spike chain) and a shield for some of the shield manuevers. Then Thicket of Blades lockdown time.

I actually agree with this.
A Crusader With a Kusari-gama, thicket of blades and the right maneuvers an be REALLY annoying, and when stuff gets onto him then he gets a bonus from his delayed damage pool, so it's pretty much a lose-lose situation.

[Big Fau]

The first one of these builds to ever exist is probably this one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...).

Ah yes, the shot that started the war...


@OP: The Knight is the closest thing you have to MMO-style tanking, but it has serious issues that need to be addressed. The best tanks in 3.5 are either a spellcaster with the right buffs, a PsiWar, a Crusader, or a Warblade.

[Zombulian]

Goad and all that stuff, maybe get yourself a Spiked Chain, stock up things to give yourself extra reach. Try Willing Deformity (Tall) and Aberrant Reach. Then figure out how to get yourself Whirlwind Attack - may I recommend Martial Monk? Whirlwind Attack is a fighter bonus feat after all. As for getting yourself some extra health, maybe Necrocarnate? Start yourself off with Commoner to get chicken infested and maybe get a bajillion extra health from their poor chicken souls?

[Dr.Epic]

1. Be a barbarian
2. Be a good barbarian
3. ???
4. profit


DONE!:smallwink:

[Irreverent Fool]

Personally, I dislike trying to make a character who functions as a mechanical "tank" in a roleplaying game. While I can see a dedicated melee combatant protecting one or two other characters against a small group on enemies, a single fighter preventing a horde of enemies from getting to four other characters just doesn't make sense unless choke points are involved. Even then, there's no real way to manipulate spellcasters into attacking you with damaging spells instead of ignoring you or locking you down with save-or-dies/save-or-sucks.

The major weakness of trying to make a tank-type character is the ease of which enemies can disengage and the limited threat range of your typical fighting man. Mechanically, the best way to make a functional tank is with a spiked-chain, extended-reach trip, attack of opportunity trip build. Trips are probably the most threatening attack of opportunity. Honestly though, an optimized trip build just isn't that much fun for most players or most DMs. Furthermore, many DMs will end up sending untrippable foes after the party to make sure there is still a semblance of a challenge, which will ruin the effect anyway.

Do you want a fighting man who trades blows with enemy brutes? Have the other party members carry hardened tower shields for cover. Enemies will have the choice of attacking the fighter or making a sunder attempt against the shields. They'd usually prefer to draw blood.

[Karoht]

Druids. Wild Shape + Natural Spell.
Summons to the front.
Party Casters and other range to the back.
Choke points using terrain and battlefield control spells.
Occasionaly reinforce Summons with either heals, buffs, or more summons.
Keep your Animal Companion and yourself ready to move to intercept anything that makes it through.

A Druid backed up by a Wizard or Cleric (or in a perfect party, both) can 'tank' as well as battlefield control. Tank in this context is more like getting in the face of anything that makes it around your summons, shore up 'the line' if a gap should form, and ultimately interdict/intercept any threat that makes it through your battlefield control/choke points and potentially threatens your range party members.

[Tokiko Mima]

I think the ideal tanking class/dip is Dragonfire Adept. Throw an Entangling Exhalation feat onto your breath and you have a great way to lock down the movement of your enemies. You can do this as a dip, or as a pure DFA. Enemies more or less have to pay attention to you if you are halving their movement speed, applying penalties to their attack bonus+Dex and also setting them on fire. :smallamused:

Another trick is to remember that ACP and ASF do nothing to a supernatural breath weapon and the non-proficient penalty is a hit on your attack bonus. So despite their apparent lack of armor proficiency you can wear all the armor you want and you don't even need to be proficient (as long as you aren't planning on making any attack rolls.) Just be sure and pick your invocations from the list of those with 24 durations and you're golden.

[Snowbluff]

I think the ideal tanking class/dip is Dragonfire Adept. Throw an Entangling Exhalation feat onto your breath and you have a great way to lock down the movement of your enemies. You can do this as a dip, or as a pure DFA. Enemies more or less have to pay attention to you if you are halving their movement speed, applying penalties to their attack bonus+Dex and also setting them on fire. :smallamused:

Another trick is to remember that ACP and ASF do nothing to a supernatural breath weapon and the non-proficient penalty is a hit on your attack bonus. So despite their apparent lack of armor proficiency you can wear all the armor you want and you don't even need to be proficient (as long as you aren't planning on making any attack rolls.) Just be sure and pick your invocations from the list of those with 24 durations and you're golden.

This is a good idea, due to DFA's Con synergy. But DFA's are worthless against anything with Evasion.

Crusader get's my vote. Not only do can they use all shields and armor and go for a tripping built, but they have the most *not dying* abilities of any melee. Immortal Fortitude, Steely Resolve, Stone Power, damage reduction strikes, healing strike, Shield Counter, and that's without any magic items. Add on White Raven Maves which can be used to move the rest of you party into less vulnerable positions, (By giving extra turns with WRT, giving move actions, giving five foot steps, giving charges, stunning, preventing AoO, preventing full attack...).

[Feytalist]

Knight/Crusader.

Knight because of its unique knight's challenge, d12 of hp and a few abilities that allow him to block creatures trying to get around him. I think that comes online at level 4 or 5. Incidentally it also delays the Crusader's maneuver progression enough to pick a higher level stance at level 2.

Crusader because of the aforementioned reasons, his damage-delaying trick and Thicket of Blades.

Kit it out in some sort of reach chain-tripping build and that's the closest thing you'll get to an aggro-drawing tank in D&D.

[Gwendol]

Right:
4 levels of Knight gives you Bulwark of Defence; for which enemies standing in squares you threaten need to treat those as difficult terrain (double movement cost, no 5' step without AoO). Medium armor mastery (no speed reduction when wearing medium armor), Mounted Combat, Shield Block (+1 shield AC vs selected enemy. The nice thing is that you don't need to carry a shield to use it, just armor works fine). A few uses of Knight's challenge/day: either fighting challenge (+1 attack & damage vs one enemy), and Test of Mettle; which is what this thread is about (partly, at least). Similar mechanically to Goad, but affecting all creatures in a large area around you. With only 4 levels of knight you will need to pump CHA high enough for this to matter or else the save DC will be insignificant.

PersonMan has an excellent Knight handbook: good for mapping out feats and break-off points. (Combat reflexes, StandStill, Mage Slayer are standard fare. Power attack is always good. I'm less in favor of combat expertise/imp trip, simply because it incurs getting MAD, and tripping isn't reliable enough: better boost size and/or strength and do damage)

You will end up with a highly mobile, AoO spamming, mook magnet. BoD + ToB stance will force all within reach to take defensive stances, or take a lot of hits, while your teammates can flank/carpetbomb/whatever relatively unthreatened.

[Piggy Knowles]

The first one of these builds to ever exist is probably this one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...).

Aww... that's cute that you think Lock was the first of its kind to exist!

(Snow Savant's "gatling gun" (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870774/Fighter-20:_The_34;Gatling_Chain_Gun34;_Tripper) build predated it by at least three years and really set the stage for Lock and a lot of other lockdown builds that followed...)

[NOhara24]

Aww... that's cute that you think Lock was the first of its kind to exist!

(Snow Savant's "gatling gun" (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870774/Fighter-20:_The_34;Gatling_Chain_Gun34;_Tripper) build predated it by at least three years and really set the stage for Lock and a lot of other lockdown builds that followed...)


I had been wondering where Hipster Kitty went.

That being said, I too recommend Crusader with spiked chain silliness. If you can get your DM to modify the save for Test of Mettle, it would be a viable option as well.

[kulosle]

Ah see I knew I was asking the right place. I do think that the main thing this kind of build would be is what WoW would call an off tank. The off tank handles all the mooks and the main tank handles the boss. Still a very useful build. I really want to try and make a good tank now. I'll have to look into handbooks first. I've never given the knight more then a second glance.

[Tokiko Mima]

This is a good idea, due to DFA's Con synergy. But DFA's are worthless against anything with Evasion.

True, but if that is your concern, then I might suggest that there's a wealth of Breath Effects that are Fortitude saves. They do require more investment in DFA character levels, of course. And even with Evasion or Improved Evasion, your foe must still save to avoid the damage and slow. There's also not quite so many enemies in D&D that pack evasion as there are players that take that ability.

Honestly, I think energy-type immune/resistant foes are more of an obstacle than simple evasion is.

[Prime32]

Tome's Knight (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Class#Knight)'s Designate Opponent is an interesting way to do this.

[MukkTB]

Area of Effect snares + decent HP + decent AC = best tank.
This means:
Druid with Wildshape + Barding + Animal Companion + Summons + entangle
Melee Class + Ranged Weapon + Trip

[Medic!]

If you go Knight, don't overlook the CR requirements for your abilities tied to Knight's Challenge.

[Suddo]

Ah see I knew I was asking the right place. I do think that the main thing this kind of build would be is what WoW would call an off tank. The off tank handles all the mooks and the main tank handles the boss. Still a very useful build. I really want to try and make a good tank now. I'll have to look into handbooks first. I've never given the knight more then a second glance.
So this is always where D&D differs from MMO stuff. A smart DM wouldn't say hey this guy is the lowest Damage Dealer let me kill him first. They would say let me kill the wizard who is about to attempt to disintegrate me. There are a couple of things one can do. Goad, as brought up above, is a feat that allows you to do a mind affecting ability that forces the opponent to attack only you, if it works which is a big if as the mod of it isn't the biggest in the world but if you DM were building a WoW like enviroment then you could know a head of time that this is okay. Or if the DM like giving you a fight where there is one guy who is the big stupid fighter and you need to keep him away from the wizard, though why the wizard doesn't cast charm person or something is beyond me.
But lets say that you have a DM that modded the Goad feat to encompass the entire idea of the Main Tank because he likes how WoW does things and has nerfed the magic users enough to where they are more like the ones in WoW.
You build would be simple:
Human Crusader 2 / Fighter 18
28 point build:
STR: 14 DEX: 12 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 8 CHA: 14 (Con and Str can be swapped for 20 HP over-all for +1 Hit, the same can be said for Cha if you need a harder save)
Level 20 (no items or such):
STR: 15 DEX: 12 CON: 20 INT: 10 WIS: 8 CHA: 14
Feats:
Improved Toughness, Improved Toughness, Improved Toughness, Improved Toughness... You get the point.
And there in lies the inherent flaw in the design. If you are only fighting a big stupid guy your Saves don't matter, the only thing that does is Health, you can see this same idea in WoW. If you look at a monster that is suppose to be the big bad guy and that is suppose to be the big stupid fight, it's +to hit is going to be so outrageous that you are probably better off investing in other things. The only thing you'll need to make sure of is that you also have Heavy Fortification. This can be gotten on Armor.
Oh and just as a note: 7 feats from Levels, 1 feat from human, 10 from figher, totaling 18. So that's 2d12 + 18d10 + 460 HP (half dice for 562)at level 20 without any magic. This can probably be optimized but I'm not going to be the one to do it.

[kulosle]

Well the idea behind attacking the tank over the DPS in a game like League of Legends is that they are the most annoying, they always initiate the fight, they make the rest of the team harder to kill, they disrupt the hell out of you, and they punish you for attacking their allies. This is what I was going for.

note: you can't take improved toughness more than once, only toughness.

[Gwendol]

Let me just point out that there is a world of difference between goad and test of mettle in the area of effect. Goad is a poor substitute for the latter.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think the best way to do what you're describing (in the last post) is to be a chain tripper, actually. Being Large (and thus having chains with an effective reach of 20 feet) means you make a 25-foot-radius circle in the battlefield and tell anyone who enters that radius NO. Melee has to take a wide arc* around you or be brought under your heel (*a wide arc which, mind you, moves frequently when the need arises), and ranged support is going to be doing their best to take you out (assuming an intelligently managed group by the DM) because you're making it impossible for their melee fighters to get where they need to go, and you're simply too dangerous to engage directly.

Goliath is a good choice for this, if you can get past the +1 LA and -2 penalty to DEX (since Powerful Build is "always on").

Spoilering the lecture:

I take issue with the idea that you can "draw aggro" in the MMO sense in D&D. One has to realize that "drawing aggro" and, by extension, "tanking" only works in an MMO setting because enemies are designed to calculate threat level purely on a fixed algorithm: attack X generates more threat than attack Y, therefore, you want to attack the player who uses attack X. Often, these threat generators are completely arbitrary (in WoW, the Warrior has a number of abilities that generate a huge amount of threat, but don't do a meaningful enough amount of damage or a serious enough debuff of any kind to actually be threatening, which is paradoxical in every way you think about it that doesn't involve game balance for the warrior's role as a "tank"). In D&D 3.5, however (I dare not speak for 4e, since I don't know the system that well), enemies are being run by a DM who, by all rights, it is safe to assume is not a computer, and doesn't determine "threat" by matching an arbitrary set of numbers called "threat levels" against each other. Unlike computer-generated enemies in MMOs, most DMs employ things such as tactics blocks or, better yet, critical thinking skills, which will supercede any idea of "threat"; for example, an enemy designed to be paranoid of spellcasters of any kind may have in his tactics block that he'll always strike to kill a wizard or sorcerer within reason. The characters in a game of D&D have fears, motivations, loves and hatreds, and other strong emotions which lead them to act in the way that they do; the complex nature of the humanoid mind (or even that of another creature) can't simply be typified or pigeonholed into "I shout at that critter, making it want to attack me over the squishy who's preparing a save-or-die when he gets within range".

...That said, the Knight actually does some of what I describe above, making it the closest thing to a true-to-life MMO "tank". Ironically, I think the greatest execution of this is actually Saint Bertold, which is an Apostle of Peace build.

[elvengunner69]

Seeing the Knight/Crusader build in action I would vote for this but also had a friend who made a Cleric build that hardly ever got hit - spent lots of his gold on rings of protection and the like - he was the primary healer for the group and those touch heals kept him on the front lines quite a bit so his investments were good ones.

[IdleMuse]

The 4.0 fighter, if i remember correctly, has an ability that gives enemies a -2 to attacks when they aren't attacking the fighter.

There's a Stance in ToB, Iron Guard's Glare, which does this, although you do need to the Threaten the foe; so, size increases and reach weapons, which (as pointed out by this thread) are pretty mandatory anyway.

[Chronos]

Goliath is a good choice for this, if you can get past the +1 LA and -2 penalty to DEX (since Powerful Build is "always on").Note that Powerful Build does not give increased reach-- You need something that increases your actual size for that, not just faking it like Powerful Build. For +1 LA, you can get the Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur template, but those are widely regarded as overpowered for the cost, and a DM is likely to houserule them to either be weaker, or higher LA. Alternately, you can rely on magic like Enlarge Person or the psionic power Expansion, but then you either need a way to keep that active for a long time, or cast it every combat.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Does powerful build mentions specifically you are treated as large size? or does it says "As a bigger size cathegory"? cause it would be quite hilarious to make a Half-ogre half giant which counts as huge for some things.

[Greenish]

For +1 LA, you can get the Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur template, but those are widely regarded as overpowered for the cost, and a DM is likely to houserule them to either be weaker, or higher LA.Half-minotaur or half-ogre (template) would be on the high end of power if they were LA +1 races (assuming Large but without the boosts from upping a size category).


Does powerful build mentions specifically you are treated as large size? or does it says "As a bigger size cathegory"? cause it would be quite hilarious to make a Half-ogre half giant which counts as huge for some things.It's one category up. Make said half-giant half-ogre a psywarr and manifest augmented expansion for extra funs. :smalltongue:


Also, just for clarity, here's Powerful Build (from SRD):
Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.All the printed abilities with the same name (goliath, eneko, red cap) have identical wording (barring the name of the critter, obviously).

[Lonely Tylenol]

Note that Powerful Build does not give increased reach-- You need something that increases your actual size for that, not just faking it like Powerful Build. For +1 LA, you can get the Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur template, but those are widely regarded as overpowered for the cost, and a DM is likely to houserule them to either be weaker, or higher LA. Alternately, you can rely on magic like Enlarge Person or the psionic power Expansion, but then you either need a way to keep that active for a long time, or cast it every combat.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't check my facts or think it through past "you get to use larger weapons".

You get to use larger weapons, but... Not their higher reach capacity. Strangely. Oh who am I kidding, expecting logical congruity from D&D's rule set?

[Suddo]

Oh I never saw that Imp Toughness couldn't be taken more than once. Normally I try and do other things than max out my HP.

But back to the discussion at hand:
I've never seen someone in an MMO who is considered the tank who is the first person you should take out. Even in LoL and WoW (PvP) I never thought taking out the tank first was the right response. In WoW, the game I'm more familiar with, although the tank maybe annoying the person keeping him alive is the healer, who is also making you be less annoying via removing your debuffs, so you go after the healer. The tank is often a more constant annoyance and is often more just trying to slow the people from getting to the healer.
In LoL, from the little I played, Tanks are often junglers where in you grind the monsters randomly spawned in the jungle and wait to sneak attack from bushes for easy kills. This is because they have large health pools they can fight through the jungles longer than a character with less health. This is just from what I observed and though. In D&D Jungling isn't a thing you can do to help the team.

In D&D often a good tank is someone who just has a large threat range and forces people to go around him and has decent mobility to try and prevent his allies from dying. This fails when there is only one enemy that you want to attack, a dragon or something, you control elements are usually for not because the dragon won't be tripped and cares very little about you Attack of Opportunity. So though in a group v group fight you can do somethings but once you get to the Boss fight you become a less than awesome member of the team who only gets to do a couple of things.

Now this isn't to say I don't like the tank archetype. I very much enjoy the 4e mechanic and like how it makes each class its very own. I just don't think there are very many good mechanics in 3.X to support it. Now as stated above a tripper build with crusader or knight is cool and fun and can be quite useful to play, hell in my next game I'm going to try and play a Arcane Gish Tripper build (yes I realize it might not be completely optimal).

[Greenish]

I've never seen someone in an MMO who is considered the tank who is the first person you should take out. Even in LoL and WoW (PvP) I never thought taking out the tank first was the right response. In WoW, the game I'm more familiar with, although the tank maybe annoying the person keeping him alive is the healer, who is also making you be less annoying via removing your debuffs, so you go after the healer. The tank is often a more constant annoyance and is often more just trying to slow the people from getting to the healer.When people say "WoW tank", they usually mean PvE.

[FMArthur]

Goliaths can get the full benefits of their 'effective' size with their Barbarian substitution level. It's a variant for Rage so it only works for a short while, but it is still useful.

[Lonely Tylenol]

When people say "WoW tank", they usually mean PvE.

Which I think raises an interesting point: Which is D&D closer to on the spectrum, WoW PvP (where you're fighting a sentient, rational being with his own reactive idea of tactics at the other end of the line) or WoW PvE (where you're fighting a slew of monsters created, essentially, to be killed)? It certainly contains elements of both, elements which, by the by, are harmonious and compatible together (even if the concepts of PvP and PvE as a whole are not), but for the purposes of this discussion you kind of have to decide on which side of the spectrum a player vs. monster encounter in D&D falls.

[Coidzor]

Well, 3.X definitely seems like it has monster mechanics that are very much like PvP except in a few cases, where the creatures are so dumb that if the adventurers were clever they could just use carrots to make perpetual motion machines out of them, due to the way abilities are forked out from a more or less common pot.

4e, on the other hand, definitely fits the whole PvE paradigm due to the way the game breaks down if PCs have intraparty conflict and the wonkiness of having the PCs face creatures with "class levels."

I don't recall how either basic or AD&D earlier editions handled things.

[kulosle]

Here's an interesting thought, is there a way to make attacking an ally provoke AoO. That would be the ideal method.
You try to attack my ally? I trip you and attack you four times.

I really wish I knew more about psionics, the ardent is looking very interesting. Especially when looking at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229569#post12570675) thread. Thank the gods for handbooks.

Half ogre and half Minotaur are +2 LA I thought.

Does expansion and enlarge person stack?

[Greenish]

Here's an interesting thought, is there a way to make attacking an ally provoke AoO.Yes. Be a crusader.


Half ogre and half Minotaur are +2 LA I thought.Half-ogre and half-minotaur templates (from Dragon #313) are +1 LA. The half-ogre race (SS/RoD) is +2 LA, and there's no half-minotaur race.

[Eisenfavl]

The problem with crusader tanks is they don't have the feats to follow another progression, to beef up their damage for stand still/killing them dead.

My favourite character to actually play is a fighter 18/barbarian 2 who has stand still + knockdown + thicket of blades up by 6, with imperious command-never outnumbered cowering AOE going off each round, which by level 12 is leap-shock attack trooper ubercharging with swift action demoralise.

[Greenish]

The problem with crusader tanks is they don't have the feats to follow another progression, to beef up their damage for stand still/killing them dead.Stand Still will scale well enough with a two-hander and decent strength. For killing enemy dead, well, that's what the strikes are for.


My favourite character to actually play is a fighter 18/barbarian 2 who has stand still + knockdown + thicket of blades up by 6Without levels in a martial adept class, you can't get Thicket of Blades until level 10.

Two level dip into fighter is enough to get Knock-Down/PA/Combat Reflexes on your non-human crusader by level 4. Spiked Chain, too, if you make it exoticist.

[Suddo]

Here's an interesting thought, is there a way to make attacking an ally provoke AoO. That would be the ideal method.
You try to attack my ally? I trip you and attack you four times.

With or without homebrew?
Also an AoO is only one attack (2 if you have Imp Trip and successfully trip, if you can trip as an AoO if forget).
To be honest if you are playing a Fighter, Paladin or Knight having a homebrewed ability around 3rd to 5th level that acted similar to the 4e mechanic would be okay if it some how scaled by something that is tied to the classes, so you aren't bound to do 20 Paladin but can't go 5 Paladin/15 Wizard and still 'taunt' just as good. You'd probably have to take Prestige Classes on a case by case measure for this.
For those outside the know of the 4e 'tanking' mechanic: You mark an opponent, each class has slightly different ways you can do this and some can even do multiples, the mark has a -2 to hit for attacking anyone but you. They also suffer a punishment for attempting to attack someone else. This can range from an AoO to a ranged damage hit based on stats. Its a pretty cool mechanic.

Also if homebrewing you could choose to make 'taunt' levels stack from base classes or to have them not. Example: Knight 5/ Fighter 5 could either have a level 10 taunt or 2 level 5 taunts. These produce two different things and depending on how you make the taunts could do completely different things. I personally would make it be like goad but with different Attributes. So like the Paladin has Char+Level, where the Fighter has Str+Level (or something maybe dex?). Or it could be a skill check like in DDO, Intimidate. Then apply the check versus the opposed check, probably their HD + modifier or HD + opposed skill check (maybe sense motive to keep a clear head). If the 'taunt' is resisted it could cause the opponent to not suffer a -2 penalty but they might still suffer the AoO depending.

Lots of variables should be fun if you tackle it.

[mint]

Healing. You can make it hard to end your party while you are still up.
Crusader/Incarnate/Hellreaver.
I forget the exact ratio.
Hellreaver gives you a ranged 20hp heal every round as a swift action at the cut-off. Combine with healing moves from crusader. Incarnate is to fuel the renewal mechanic for the hellreaver resource.

[kulosle]

No homebrew.

I do like the idea of having some healing I can do for others, it would make it so that they would want to focus me.

[Zombulian]

I'm just gonna go ahead and bring up the silliness of being a Half-Ogre, Half-Minotaur. Half-Mino is only a +1 LA and makes you large, and Half-Ogre only gives you an LA if you aren't already large. Stack em both on and still only have LA +1!

[Flickerdart]

There's a pair of nifty tank feats in Drow of the Underdark. The first, Constant Guardian, is kind of suck - you can take a -2 penalty on attacks to give an ally within 10 feet +2 to AC. The second feat, Dutiful Guardian, is what makes it good, because now, if the ally you're protecting is attacked, you can switch places with them as an immediate action.

[elvengunner69]

There's a pair of nifty tank feats in Drow of the Underdark. The first, Constant Guardian, is kind of suck - you can take a -2 penalty on attacks to give an ally within 10 feet +2 to AC. The second feat, Dutiful Guardian, is what makes it good, because now, if the ally you're protecting is attacked, you can switch places with them as an immediate action.

Wouldn't the Crusader Maneuver/Stance Devoted Spirit do this but @ +4? And/or could you stack those?

[Flickerdart]

Devoted Spirit is a discipline. The only thing I can find in it that is similar is Shield Block (+4 AC to adjacent ally as immediate action) which isn't as good as either feat really (since Constant Guardian is a free action against all attacks, and doesn't require a shield or adjacency).

[Eisenfavl]

Goddamn server crashing when I try to post.


Stand Still will scale well enough with a two-hander and decent strength. For killing enemy dead, well, that's what the strikes are for.
I try to kill things and get damage with my AoO, because otherwise there's no point in a build focusing on it. Different focuses, I suppose.
Stand Still is a reflex save. A rather easy one, frankly, if you can't afford to power attack. I use 16/16/14/14/8/8 stats and at level 12 without power attack (which as a non-shocktrooper you have debatable gain/lose situations) I do 2d4 (gurisamme) + 4 + 7*1.5 = average of 19, which is obscenely easy at that level for rogues/reflex good dex high people, or anyone with a decent cloak of resistance.


Without levels in a martial adept class, you can't get Thicket of Blades until level 10.

Two level dip into fighter is enough to get Knock-Down/PA/Combat Reflexes on your non-human crusader by level 4. Spiked Chain, too, if you make it exoticist.
Martial Stance says you can select any stance from a discipline in which you already know one maneuver. You must meet the normal prerequisite of the stance.
Go down to the maneuver section. Prerequisite is one of the categories which they determine. The Initiator-maneuver level chart refers to maneuvers gained by levels. Otherwise, levels in classes would never count for getting maneuvers, and I think that the linguistics support me.

[elvengunner69]

Devoted Spirit is a discipline. The only thing I can find in it that is similar is Shield Block (+4 AC to adjacent ally as immediate action) which isn't as good as either feat really (since Constant Guardian is a free action against all attacks, and doesn't require a shield or adjacency).

I was thinking this one -

Iron Guard’s Glare: Stance—Enemies take –4 penalty on attacks against your allies.

I know it's not an AC buff but a penalty against people attacking your party.

[Medic!]

Iron Guard's Glare + Defensive Rebuke (Swift action boost, every creature you strike will provoke an AoO from you for each individual attack it makes against an ally in the next round) can give some awfully strong incentive to a monster to keep its hands, feet, and other objects to itself. Coupled with strikes like the Crusader's Strike line to heal yourself or allies, Crusaders do a great job of either screaming "OH ME ME HIT ME PICK ME....or you'll regret it"

[kulosle]

So can I simply go human half Minotaur knight 4/crusader 16 with LA buy off? Would squeezing ardent in there be possible? I don't really need that many levels to grab all the important maneuvers. Is there class that progresses psionic and initiator? AFB right now and I've never really played either of them much so I'm a bit of a noob in this area. Something like ardent 10/knight 4/crusader 6. I was told to always take ten levels of ardent for the ACFs. I don't see any prestige class that fights particularly well into this build. Maybe Tactical Soldier for a two level dip, that's about it.

[Greenish]

I try to kill things and get damage with my AoO, because otherwise there's no point in a build focusing on it.Why did you take Stand Still, then?


Stand Still is a reflex save. A rather easy one, frankly, if you can't afford to power attack. I use 16/16/14/14/8/8 stats and at level 12 without power attack (which as a non-shocktrooper you have debatable gain/lose situations) I do 2d4 (gurisamme) + 4 + 7*1.5 = average of 19, which is obscenely easy at that level for rogues/reflex good dex high people, or anyone with a decent cloak of resistance.Most critters you'd want to stop with Stand Still are those you can't trip, ie. big strong monsters, which usually have low-ish dex and ref. And even without shock trooper, you can usually afford some power attack on attacks at full BAB, such as AoO.


Martial Stance says you can select any stance from a discipline in which you already know one maneuver. You must meet the normal prerequisite of the stance.
Go down to the maneuver section. Prerequisite is one of the categories which they determine. The Initiator-maneuver level chart refers to maneuvers gained by levels. Otherwise, levels in classes would never count for getting maneuvers, and I think that the linguistics support me.Good luck selling that interpretation to DMs. Mountain Tombstone Strike at 1st level. :smallamused:

[kulosle]

Wait so this build should end up being huge to gargantuan size, depending on whether expansion and enlarge person stack. If this is on a half goliath build then he can trip any non epic character. I don't think Stand Still is necessary. for the few creatures this guy couldn't trip.

Dilema: High Sword Low Axe seems optimal for tripping. The problem is neither of the available weapons are reach. Is there a way to have both, or another feat that lets me attack and make free trip attempts?

[Coidzor]

Knockdown lets you have free trip attempts whenever you do at least... 10 damage was it?

[kulosle]

Ah very good. I knew there was something I was missing, and yes it's 10 damage. So going through the list of templates and happened upon some tasty ones. If playing with LA buy off are any of these worth it, what if i'm not?

Templates
mineral warrior
saint
feral
lolth touched
Quasilycanthrope
half minotaur (i'm definitely taking this one, regardless of whether or not there is la buy off)

Also is there a way of getting improved trip without taking combat expertise or 6 levels of monk.
similarly is there a less painful way of getting elusive target.

[Coidzor]

All of those are worth it with LA buyoff and tempting even without it.

Several of them are worth it in combination.

Wolf Totem Barbarian from UA (and found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) on the SRD) gets Improved Trip at level 2 as a bonus feat that avoids the pre-requisites. Also doesn't trade away the things you trade away in order to get spirit lion totem for pounce at level 1 from Complete Champion(IIRC). Nor does it conflict with the Whirling Frenzy alternate rage from UA.

Two levels of Barbarian is pretty fun, I believe there's a version of the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) that uses 2 levels of barbarian in that manner.

[kulosle]

Is evasion, improved evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge necessary? Or will a ring of evasion and elusive target work?

[Gwendol]

Necessary for what? Tanking?

With the build you are looking at you will have several options at your disposal: either draw the mooks toward you and hold off while the team flanks and tear into them (or draw off the mooks while the team go after the prize). Or, take the fight to the enemy, locking them down. Or protect someone (or something) by simply disallowing passage.

Evasion is good for lasting longer against casters (but you will want to lock them in place instead of evading). I'd say uncanny dodge may be more valuable since you will often find yourself running the risk of getting flanked. Still, fighting tactically and with reach, you can avoid flanking without too much hassle. Your BoD ability will help here.

[Greenish]

Wait so this build should end up being huge to gargantuan size, depending on whether expansion and enlarge person stack.Enlarge Person requires the target to be a humanoid. Goliath itself doesn't qualify, nor does half-minotaur anything.

[Gwendol]

There is an expensive ring in Savage Species that works similar to a ring of enlarge person for non-humanoid races. That and mountain rage (for goliaths) is what you need.

[Rubik]

Wait so this build should end up being huge to gargantuan size, depending on whether expansion and enlarge person stack. If this is on a half goliath build then he can trip any non epic character. I don't think Stand Still is necessary. for the few creatures this guy couldn't trip.Even though half-giants and goliaths are not humanoid (barring the use of Human Heritage, etc) and as such cannot use Enlarge Person, Expansion explicitly states that effects that increase your size category don't stack (and I believe Enlarge Person says the same).

Do note that the Powerful Build special quality doesn't increase your size; it just makes you count as a size larger, so it still works.

[kulosle]

I was simply noting that the half goliath counted as a size larger for who he can trip.

So it looks like I need to use expansion then. Is there any way of getting it on an ardent or should a take a one level dip into psywar? If invested it can give me two sizes any ways.

[ericgrau]

The "tank" build in D&D 3.5 is not really what most people consider to be a tank. In any other game, especially online games, the tanks job is too make people attack them and take the majority of damage. This is done in two ways, either making it so that the enemy literally has to fight you or that you are so annoying that they want to kill you first. The 4.0 fighter, if i remember correctly, has an ability that gives enemies a -2 to attacks when they aren't attacking the fighter. The goad feat tries to do this but what tank has the time to max out his charisma, and even if he did the dc is still low. The knight almost does this but the class sucks so much I don't think you'd want to do it. The only other method of tanking DnD has is the bracelets that lets you take half the damage for someone else, but you can only do this for two people. Or the devoted defender from 3.0 or the bodyguard fighter variant, but those are both only for one person.

Is there a way of making an good tank in 3.5?
That's what I hate about online games. As soon as you go PvP all those aggro abilities become worthless because they never made sense in the first place. But if you want to do it like 4e then later things like crusader are experiments working towards what they later put in 4e. To use material that came before aggro drawing you can also grab a reach weapon and/or large size, combat reflexes, tripping, thicket of blades and so on to keep foes from moving past you. Then up your defense a lot because by default it's much lower than online games (and offense is higher). But at least it's much cheaper to improve than offense.

In Pathfinder I did have a shield other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm) oracle build who specialized in healing multiple targets and healing himself. Thus he played "tank" and healer. Worked pretty well, repeatedly stopped someone from being knocked out in a campaign with a cruel DM. But part of that is because Pathfinder added better multi-target and self heals via special abilities rather than spells.

[kulosle]

Yeah I investigated the idea of trying to be the healer with high defenses, but it doesn't add up well, nor does it feel much like a tank. I do like the idea of your build though. I'm just not too familiar with pathfinder, nor does my group ever use it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was simply noting that the half goliath counted as a size larger for who he can trip.

So it looks like I need to use expansion then. Is there any way of getting it on an ardent or should a take a one level dip into psywar? If invested it can give me two sizes any ways.

I am pretty sure it is in a mantle somewhere; but if it isn't you could always use the Substitute power ACF (perhaps in the conflict or maybe even in the Natural World mantle) or if you can't convince your DM there is always Hidden Talent (a sidebar in the XPH, not sure on the page) which gives you any 1st level power from any list and 2 PP though you can only manifest said power if your Cha is 11 or more (You could always houserule it to be any of the mental stats...)

[kulosle]

Well this build would be using the dominate ideal ACF so i'd only have one mantle and it would be guardian or pain and suffering. I don't think I could convince a DM that it would be in either of those. Hidden talent it is then.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You could argue that expansion fits into Guardian, in the sense you become bigger to protect your companions.

[kulosle]

Yeah, that might work. I'm not sure which one I prefer though. They are both excellent mantles to use for a tank. I'm already feat starved I don't know if I can take hidden talent.

speaking of feats hear is a list of feats that i am considering. Is there anything i'm missing? What should a take and what can I avoid?

knock down
improved trip
double hit
karmic strike
mage slayer
combat reflexes
elusive target
dodge
mobility
combat expertise
hidden talent
power attack

especially psionic feats. I'm not familiar with them so I'm not sure if any of them fit in to this build.