So I'm about to play my first psionic character. . . .

[Ursus the Grim]

Due to DM phobias, general unfamiliarity, or taste, I have never actually gotten to play a psionic character. This will change tomorrow. I'm undoubtedly going to have some questions and comments, and I'm hoping people more knowledgeable than me can help out or simply chat. I know that, like casters, Psions can be cheesed out, so I limited my shenanigans and only consulted the internet for help choosing my race and one of my feats.

The Build.
Spellscale Wilder 5/Anarchic Initiate 6
Adjusted Ability Scores: 10/12/13/11/9/26
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Quick Recovery, Body Fuel, Nymph's Kiss, Nimbus of Light, Servant of the Heavens, Stigmata
Skill Ranks: Autohypnosis 14, Bluff 14, Concentration 14, Escape Artist 2, Knowledge (Psionics) 14, Knowledge (The Planes) 6
Powers (150 pp) Energy Ray, Conceal Thoughts, Id Insinuation, Time Hop, Death Urge, Mind Crush

The concept is that I repeatedly augment powers to their maximum potential with Wild and Chaotic Surges, using Quick Recovery to help mitigate a few of the inevitable Enervations. In the unlikely event that I run out of PP, I can use Body Fuel to get some back, and if our healer goes down, I can emergency heal with Stigmata.0

Thanks to the Charisma bonus and such, I accidentally ended up with a sizable bluff check (before Conceal Thoughts), but the character's aim is not to convince the king Pelor lives in his nostrils.

Due to the augmentable nature of powers, scaling isn't as much of an issue as it was with a typical caster, so I anticipate difficulty choosing which one to use in a given situation. Do I throw a 14d6+14 ray or attempt the Psychic Crush? Do I hit that crowd with Id Insinuation or attempt to Time Hop them all?

BTW, Time Hop is either going to be the most glorious power ever or get the DM rather angry. I've calculated it, and I can dissolve 30 cubic feet of granite for over a minute. Well placed, I can take down pretty much any structure. :smallamused:

While I don't think its overpowered, I'm a little concerned. We're looking at a ranged ranger, a low-op rogue, and a decent warblade as my adventuring companions, and I don't want to steal the show (like I did with my Wildshaping Barbarian, long story). If at least the Warblade can keep up with me, I don't think I'll feel too bad. But I didn't pick many support powers to take a back seat if necessary.

Thoughts?

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I don't think this is high-op. I'm just worried it might be too solid in the party. No way of phrasing it that doesn't make me sound like an ass. :smalleek:

[The Glyphstone]

Psionics don't really have much support powers to speak of, unless you open The Book That Shall Not Be Named. It's one of the few flaws of the system.

[Ursus the Grim]

Psionics don't really have much support powers to speak of, unless you open The Book That Shall Not Be Named. It's one of the few flaws of the system.

Yeah, actually. I noticed that. Erm, not that I'll go check it out, but could I at least get the acronym for that book? I hope its not either XPH or CPsi. . . .

[Manateee]

I never realized that Body Fuel didn't require Overchannel. That's neat.

Did I miss an errata re: Wilder, Know:Planes or Anarchic Initiate?

Time Hop is the most fun power. Objectively. <_<

With VoP, you're probably going to want a method of flight and/or teleportation ASAP. Taking EK: Metamorphosis at level 12 is probably a safe bet (and it turns on the Wilder's inner Gish) - even if you don't want to get really abusive with it.

One thing I'd watch out for is that Id Insinuation, Psychic Crush and Death Urge target the same save, are all commonly negated and take up half your powers known. Even if you're trying to dial it back, you might want to swap one or two of those (at least one of the higher level ones) out for something that at least targets a different defense. Given your party composition, I'd recommend working Dispel Psionics in there wherever you can.

EDIT:
First party support for Psionics pretty much comes from the Mind's Eye web page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) (but keep an eye out for 3.0 psionics stuff) and Complete Psionic. The latter has some... issues.

Third party psionics support is generally better-quality. Hyperconscious by Bruce Cordell and the Dreamscarred Press SRD (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/) by the folks who also wrote PF psionics (including Tempest Stormwind from the 339 boards... he's popular here, right?) are very well-done and are often better accepted than CPsi.

[RDX]

Yeah, actually. I noticed that. Erm, not that I'll go check it out, but could I at least get the acronym for that book? I hope its not either XPH or CPsi. . . .

I'm fairly sure he's reference CPsi there, since it nerfed quite a few powers, especially for Shapers. Astral Construct got kicked pretty hard, going from no limit of constructs to CPsi making it so you could only have one at a time, or two if you went into Ectopic Adept.

[Big Fau]

Yeah, actually. I noticed that. Erm, not that I'll go check it out, but could I at least get the acronym for that book? I hope its not either XPH or CPsi. . . .

It's CPsi. The book is reviled by many Psionic fans, largely because it 1) Has fluff that flies in the face of other fluff (Divine Mind, Flayerspawn Psychic) and 2) HORRIBLE mechanics (Astral Construct nerfs, poorly thought-out powers, and several badly edited feats).

[Psyren]

Read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10635999&postcount=2), followed by this. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0) (It's for Psions, but the ratings are pretty much the same for Wilders.)

Be sure to use Educated Wilder. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)

[tyckspoon]

One thing I'd watch out for is that Id Insinuation, Psychic Crush and Death Urge target the same save, are all commonly negated and take up half your powers known. Even if you're trying to dial it back, you might want to swap one or two of those (at least one of the higher level ones) out for something that at least targets a different defense. Given your party composition, I'd recommend working Dispel Psionics in there wherever you can.


Seconded. I'd switch out Psychic Crush, personally- between the +4 it grants to enemy saves and its own DC not scaling with augments, well, it's just not a very good power. Which is a shame, because I like it and it always reminds me of YuGiOh Abridged (MIND CRUSH!!), but it is what it is.

[FMArthur]

It's CPsi. The book is reviled by many Psionic fans, largely because it 1) Has fluff that flies in the face of other fluff (Divine Mind, Flayerspawn Psychic) and 2) HORRIBLE mechanics (Astral Construct nerfs, poorly thought-out powers, and several badly edited feats).

But it also has Ardent, which is one of the better designed classes in the game if you ask me. Nobody ever seems to bother reading about it. I tell you, as soon as you try it or at least check it out, it's almost the whole reason to own the book, and one of the only true melee 'bodyguard' classes in the whole game that can actually do the job. Erudites are one of the most fun psionic classes as well, and if your game is already allowing wizards, clerics and archivists, there's no greater harm in allowing Erudite if you don't seek out the web enhancement or go with an obviously unintentional UPD interpretation.

A few of the extra powers and feats are poorly thought-out and unbalanced, but there are quite a few new options that are good and not broken. As far as supporting material for psionics outside of XPH goes, there is no better option than getting CPsi; maybe that isn't really a good thing, but it's the reality. You miss a large proportion of your psionic options by discluding it.

[Psyren]

Seconded. I'd switch out Psychic Crush, personally- between the +4 it grants to enemy saves and its own DC not scaling with augments, well, it's just not a very good power. Which is a shame, because I like it and it always reminds me of YuGiOh Abridged (MIND CRUSH!!), but it is what it is.

You could always swap in the PF version. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychic-crush)



A few of the extra powers and feats are poorly thought-out and unbalanced, but there are quite a few new options that are good and not broken. As far as supporting material for psionics outside of XPH goes, there is no better option than getting CPsi; maybe that isn't really a good thing, but it's the reality. You miss a large proportion of your psionic options by discluding it.

*cough*Mind's Eye*cough*

And there's a very large number of other PrCs, powers, feats and items scattered throughout 3.5 as well, particularly in Eberron, but even in the other Completes. A great many of these adaptations are far better than the options presented in CPsi. There are even very good races; Buomman for instance (PH) make superb Ardents and Psywars.

[FMArthur]

Yes, getting every book containing psionics material ever is better than getting just Compete Psionic. Come on, did that even need saying? :smallconfused:

[Ursus the Grim]

I never realized that Body Fuel didn't require Overchannel. That's neat.
Yeah, I'm using the SRD, and even though its listed as if its part of a tree, the actual description for Body Fuel doesn't mention it as a prerequisite.


Did I miss an errata re: Wilder, Know:Planes or Anarchic Initiate?

Concerning what? Knowledge (Planes) is a class skill for Anarchic Initiate, but not for Wilders. Luckily you can use that or Knowledge (Psionics) to fulfill the requirement. If I recall correctly, of course.

Time Hop is the most fun power. Objectively. <_<


With VoP, you're probably going to want a method of flight and/or teleportation ASAP. Taking EK: Metamorphosis at level 12 is probably a safe bet (and it turns on the Wilder's inner Gish) - even if you don't want to get really abusive with it.

Eh, I'm not sure. Metamorphosis is one of those powers that are easy to accidentally cheese (I often deny myself things altogether rather than not use them to their full potential). I may just EK for Psionic Overland Flight instead.


One thing I'd watch out for is that Id Insinuation, Psychic Crush and Death Urge target the same save, are all commonly negated and take up half your powers known. Even if you're trying to dial it back, you might want to swap one or two of those (at least one of the higher level ones) out for something that at least targets a different defense. Given your party composition, I'd recommend working Dispel Psionics in there wherever you can.

Dispel Psionics would hit magic too, thanks to Magic-Psionic transparency, no? I'd like a different attack for, say Fort or Ref, but all the really cool ones that fit my concept (Insane freedom fighter), naturally target Will. I'll probably pick up Breath of the Black Dragon or Psionic Disintegrate next level.


EDIT:
First party support for Psionics pretty much comes from the Mind's Eye web page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) (but keep an eye out for 3.0 psionics stuff) and Complete Psionic. The latter has some... issues.

Third party psionics support is generally better-quality. Hyperconscious by Bruce Cordell and the Dreamscarred Press SRD (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/) by the folks who also wrote PF psionics (including Tempest Stormwind from the 339 boards... he's popular here, right?) are very well-done and are often better accepted than CPsi.

Third party content is generally not used or accepted at my table, mostly for the sake of our green players. I've always felt that Web Enhancements, like Dragon magazine, skirts that dangerous idea between helpful and gouda. Thanks for the resource, in any event.


I'm fairly sure he's reference CPsi there, since it nerfed quite a few powers, especially for Shapers. Astral Construct got kicked pretty hard, going from no limit of constructs to CPsi making it so you could only have one at a time, or two if you went into Ectopic Adept.

Yeah, I'm aware of the Shaper nerfs, part of the reason I avoided Astral Construct. The other reason is that I'm trying to avoid pissing off the DM and bogging down combat (otherwise I'd go thrallherd :smallbiggrin:).


It's CPsi. The book is reviled by many Psionic fans, largely because it 1) Has fluff that flies in the face of other fluff (Divine Mind, Flayerspawn Psychic) and 2) HORRIBLE mechanics (Astral Construct nerfs, poorly thought-out powers, and several badly edited feats).

Reasonable enough, I suppose. I'm just using bits and pieces of it, though, and considering I'm likely to be the only psionic in the champaign, I can';t imagine the other fluff will be an issue.


Read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10635999&postcount=2), followed by this. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0) (It's for Psions, but the ratings are pretty much the same for Wilders.)

Be sure to use Educated Wilder. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)

Thanks, Psyren. I'll check that out.


Seconded. I'd switch out Psychic Crush, personally- between the +4 it grants to enemy saves and its own DC not scaling with augments, well, it's just not a very good power. Which is a shame, because I like it and it always reminds me of YuGiOh Abridged (MIND CRUSH!!), but it is what it is.

Sadly, none of the other powers really jumped out at me. I'm never a fan of the SoD effects (with the possible exception of disintegrate), and considering the augmented PP are wasted if it succeeds, I see myself just using Time Hop and Energy Ray when needed.


But it also has Ardent, which is one of the better designed classes in the game if you ask me. Nobody ever seems to bother reading about it. I tell you, as soon as you try it or at least check it out, it's almost the whole reason to own the book, and one of the only true melee 'bodyguard' classes in the whole game that can actually do the job. Erudites are one of the most fun psionic classes as well, and if your game is already allowing wizards, clerics and archivists, there's no greater harm in allowing Erudite if you don't seek out the web enhancement or go with an obviously unintentional UPD interpretation.

A few of the extra powers and feats are poorly thought-out and unbalanced, but there are quite a few new options that are good and not broken. As far as supporting material for psionics outside of XPH goes, there is no better option than getting CPsi; maybe that isn't really a good thing, but it's the reality. You miss a large proportion of your psionic options by discluding it.

I looked at Ardent briefly, and it caught my eye but I had already sunk my teeth into this concept. I'll examine the book more closely to investigate other problems with it.


You could always swap in the PF version. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychic-crush)



*cough*Mind's Eye*cough*

And there's a very large number of other PrCs, powers, feats and items scattered throughout 3.5 as well, particularly in Eberron, but even in the other Completes. A great many of these adaptations are far better than the options presented in CPsi. There are even very good races; Buomman for instance (PH) make superb Ardents and Psywars.

Won't use PF version, for similar reason to 3rd partys and web supplements. I always have to explain why I want to use it, and then my DM just counters with "I don't think you need it to at least keep up with the party". . . and sadly, he's normally right.


Yes, getting every book containing psionics material ever is better than getting just Compete Psionic. Come on, did that even need saying? :smallconfused:
Well, theoretically there is price to consider.

[Psyren]

Yes, getting every book containing psionics material ever is better than getting just Compete Psionic. Come on, did that even need saying? :smallconfused:

The point is that there ARE better options than CPsi, especially if you're looking for PrCs. Much better.

[Ursus the Grim]

With so many pp to spare, I'm starting to be really worried. DM took a look at the Warblade maneuvers last session and cried out in protest of dealing 2xConcentration check for damage. This is by and large lower than what I can dish out with Energy Ray. I'm not sure if he was joking or serious, but I'm going to be leery. The drawback to surges is the risk of enervation, but because I get 44 bonus pp for my Cha score, the pp loss isn't that scary, and I can mitigate the daze sometimes.

The thing is, I don't think its OP. But the two newbies in the party (Cleric and Necro Sorc) won't be able to help confirm that, and the other guy who knows his stuff is the one playing the Warblade. Hide-check Ranger isn't that vocal, but considering he has +40 to Hide, I think he knows some basic optimization.

[Manateee]

2*Concentration isn't a whole lot of damage, so I'm getting the impression that your DM's more intimidated by big dice than really analyzing the numbers.

That's usually the sort of thing that gives both VoP and psionics undeserved reputations of too much power. It sounds like your build is the kind to terrify that sort of player. You might want to sit down and break down the actual benefits of the VoP line or how many actual spell levels you get compared to the Sorcerer or Cleric (especially considering their spells' free scaling compared to manifesters' augments).

I wouldn't worry about your build having too much endurance. Your power selection is mostly going to make each of your attack actions involve pp (as opposed to Astral Construct or Metamorphosis-type manifesters who get multiple rounds of attacks from one casting).

Augmenting minimally, you're going to have as many spell levels daily as the Cleric, and less than the Sorcerer. But you're probably not going to be augmenting minimally if you want to get any meaningful damage in or to overcome targets' saves. You'll probably even need to consciously conserve PP just to keep up.