Need an anime for... my dad! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Don Julio Anejo

2012-01-20, 01:38 AM

Yes, really. So while visiting my parents recently, I was fiddling with my Netflix account, my dad got a bit curious about how it works (he's a literal luddite) and we watched Fullmetal Alchemist (the first one). And... he liked it.

Then (on my recommendation) he watched Black Lagoon. He liked it too. FMA: Brotherhood though? Not so much. Not for plot reasons, but for the fact that animation itself is kinda silly, over the top and childish.

So... I need some ideas. My dad likes more or less realistic shows (i.e. FMA is OK because it's logical and internally consistent, but anything where a 12 year old would go "OMG, that is so cool!" like TTGL is not), with realistic animation. His favorite genres are action, mystery and adventure. Bonus points if it involves the sea and happens somewhere in a warm climate like Black Lagoon.

Right now I'm thinking Ghost in the Shell and, if he agrees to it, Death Note. Code Geass was rejected because of mecha. Any other suggestions?

Don Julio Anejo

2012-01-20, 01:40 AM

He won't watch NGE because of mecha, and even if he did, probably wouldn't like it too much as it's really, really depressing.

nyarlathotep

2012-01-20, 02:10 AM

I was gonna say Neon Genesis Evangelion, but then you said mecha gets rejected.

...does NGE really count as a mecha anime, though? >.>

It counts just as much as 1984 counts as science fiction, silence of the lambs as horror, and Catch 22 as war fiction. In short genre is determined by set-pieces and the cultural perception of them, not how they are used.

As for good anime I liked Paranoia Agent. It was pretty much Twilight Zone the anime, and his enjoyment of it will depend on his enjoyment of anthology pseudo-horror series.

Dumbledore lives

2012-01-20, 02:17 AM

I don't know if it's too unrealistic, but Cowboy Bebop could be a good one with some good action and adventure, though the sci-fi setting may be a bit of a turn off.

I could see Paranoia Agent as a decent mystery as well. It's got some kind of weird elements, but nothing strictly supernatural.

Brother Oni

2012-01-20, 03:20 AM

Huh. I saw Paranoia Agent more as a satire of Japanese culture and the kawaisa phenomenon. :smallconfused:

The Rurouni Kenshin OAVs (probably the first series as that requires less fore-knowledge) would be a good start.

Patlabor movies are another one, although might be a turn-off because of the mecha involved (TV series is great, although he might not go for it). Same goes for Gasaraki.

Various Studio Ghibli films would be a suggestion (Mononoke Hime, Spirited Away for starters).

Jin-Roh might be a bit too political (not to mention depressing again).

If he's happy with the supernatural elements in FMA, then Witch Hunter Robin would probably be suitable as well.

Eldan

2012-01-20, 03:28 AM

I wouldn't call Paranoia Agent a mystery. The supernatural elements are far more plain weird than internally consistent or logical, the conclusion comes almost out of the left field, and there's really not much you can do to predict the plot. Not saying it's a bad show, and it's also mysterious, but I wouldn't call it a mystery.

Kurgan

2012-01-20, 03:38 AM

There is always Baccano!, it has plenty of action, adventure, and a touch of mystery as well. Starts out confusing though, as it is three overlapping stories that takes place over the course of 3 or 4 years. Not a huge focus on oceans, but it makes up for that with trains.

Here is the opening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msg8ypnLqaw), to sample the animation style.

thubby

2012-01-20, 03:43 AM

what kinds of movies does he watch?
or, more directly. would he like something heavily character/plot driven, or is he in it for the popcorn?

deathnote, gungrave, maybe GitS for the former.

ruroni kenshin/samurai x, samurai champloo, sword of the stranger for the later.

honestly, your parameters are a bit outside my typical tastes. try poking around some of the anime lists for "seinen" stuff.

Feytalist

2012-01-20, 03:48 AM

Ghost in the Shell.

Seriously, Ghost in the Shell. Movies, Stand Alone Complex, everything.

Paranoia Agent sounds good, but a decent understanding of Japanese culture might be good to have first. Cowboy Bebop, sure. It's a classic. Jin-Roh, yeah, if he's into war stuff. But as mentioned, it's depressing as all hell.

How would he feel about a heavy supernatural element? If yes, then Mushishi.

MLai

2012-01-20, 06:55 AM

I was very surprised that it took until post #5 for someone to mention Cowboy Bebop.

It's got jazz, blues, Casablanca, Bruce Lee, John Woo, and Space Odyssey. And Faye Valentine. What is there not to like for a Dad?

Yora

2012-01-20, 07:07 AM

Yeah, GitS should be a good idea.
If he doesn't want to read manga, the Monster anime looks quite good.

IrnBruAddict

2012-01-20, 08:08 AM

ruroni kenshin/samurai x, samurai champloo, sword of the stranger

All of these are good suggestions.

I would recomend Darker than Black (the first season mostly). Like FMA it has powers but all have limits and prices you must pay to use them eg. you can fly for a few seconds but must break your own finger when you land, you can kill people with a vaccum but need to drink blood to recharge, sonic voice blasts but you need to eat (not smoke) a cigaret afterwords, explosive blood but you need to cut yourself (works good together). It is verk realistic and gritty, is animated amazingly and has awesome fight scenes. Even has a dub if he would prefer it in english.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH7VTC_szRw

If you can get him to read manga then Vinland Saga. Very dark and very gritty set in the Viking invasion of Britain (you said he liked things involving the sea). Very Black Lagoonish, very moraly grey but with tons of violence and bloodshed.

Dr.Epic

2012-01-20, 08:39 AM

Cowboy Bebop

Eldan

2012-01-20, 09:05 AM

The Monster Anime is certailny not bad, but I felt it suffered from massive pacing problems, as good as the story was. Certain parts seemed to drag endlessly.

Mx.Silver

2012-01-20, 09:12 AM

Yeah, GitS should be a good idea.
If he doesn't want to read manga, the Monster anime looks quite good.

Not wanting to read the manga isn't exactly a problem with GitS either. In fact you could argue it makes for a better experience if you don't :smalltongue:

Mercenary Pen

2012-01-20, 09:29 AM

Legend of the galactic heroes might be okay- nothing too contrived in there that can't be explained as generic space opera.

Suichimo

2012-01-20, 09:37 AM

TTGL is completely realistic. Reality is the one that is off.

But yeah, I'll second Rurouni Kenshin and Cowboy Bebop. Both are extremely realistic with just a few problems in the way of that, some of the fighting styles in Rurouni Kenshin and Bebop has stuff like the mutated lobster and Pierrot le Fou.

Kyouhen

2012-01-20, 09:52 AM

Trigun might be worth looking into if he likes western-style action and can forgive a bit of stuff that doesn't work realistically.

Brother Oni

2012-01-20, 10:23 AM

I suppose Macross Plus might be a good watch then (steer him well clear of the rest), as it's self contained and requires minimal knowledge of the Macross universe.

Going back to the classics - Akira?

But yeah, I'll second Rurouni Kenshin and Cowboy Bebop. Both are extremely realistic with just a few problems in the way of that, some of the fighting styles in Rurouni Kenshin and Bebop has stuff like the mutated lobster and Pierrot le Fou.

I don't recommend the Rurouni Kenshin TV series as that clearly falls into the 12-year old "Cool!" zone, which the OP specifically asked to avoid.
The OAVs move away from this and focus far more on character development.

As for the Bebop lobster - entirely possible. Who knows what rotting in zero-g with exposure to unknown microbial bugs can cause? :smalltongue:

MLai

2012-01-20, 10:36 AM

Guys, stop recommending space mecha animes and other "Japanime for kids" type of stuff. His dad already expressed a distaste for it.

1. Oh yeah, definitely Akira. LOL I can't believe it took us that long to come up with that one.
2. Watch the Rouroni Kenshin movie (called Samurai X I think), but don't bother with the actual anime series. The movie is awesome, very adult. The anime not so much; very teenager.

BTW thanks guys. I didn't know there was more Darker Than Black past the first season. Now I have to find and watch all the later OVAs and 2nd season!

Tengu_temp

2012-01-20, 10:52 AM

Legend of the galactic heroes might be okay- nothing too contrived in there that can't be explained as generic space opera.

This thing is very good, and one of the few anime space operas that are not mecha... but it's so long! Show me an anime newbie who has the time or patience to watch a 100+ episode long OVA.

I'll recommend Cowboy Bebop, like many people before me. I'll advice against Macross Plus, though.

H Birchgrove

2012-01-20, 10:56 AM

If he likes SF: Metropolis and Steamboy.

Interbellum + aircrafts: Porco Rosso.

Prime32

2012-01-20, 10:57 AM

Dantalian no Shoka? (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/LightNovel/BibliothecaMysticaDeDantalian) It's 12 episodes, and a similar enough setting to FMA.

Radar

2012-01-20, 11:23 AM

Cowboy Bebop was already mentioned time and time again.

There is probably no anime more realistic and scientificly correct then Planetes. It is set in the near future and follows the lives of a group of space junk collectors. The problem is, there is not much action and the series focuses mostly on character development a bit of politics and other hard SF stuff (in short: it's a drama, not an action-adventure).

IrnBruAddict

2012-01-20, 12:00 PM

BTW thanks guys. I didn't know there was more Darker Than Black past the first season. Now I have to find and watch all the later OVAs and 2nd season!

Wouldn't recomend it, to be honest. The OVAs are awesome and very character driven between Hei and Yin but the 2nd series lacks something. The fights are awesome but the new characters are bad (except the sword girl Mina and the magician guy) but what they done to the recurring characters (Hei, Kirihara, April and July) was unforgivable to me, though you can kinda understand Hei because of what happend between the two series. I gave the first a 10/10 and is in my all time top 5 while the second would only get a 7/10 from me. Though the ending sets up a 3rd series that would improve alot.

Watch the Rouroni Kenshin movie (called Samurai X I think), but don't bother with the actual anime series. The movie is awesome, very adult. The anime not so much; very teenager.
This is true, anime was a bit kiddyish.

A Certain Magical Index might be a bit too much fantasy and a little lighthearted but I'll throw that in anyway, wouldn't recomend A Certain Scientific Railgun for him though. Durarara is also good but a bit character focused over all out action but when it happens its amazing and done well. Liar game OVA was only 3 episodes long but was good (did they ever release anythig else for it?). Requiem for the Phantom might be good but haven't seen it yet so can't say for sure.

Best thing to do is get the synopsises (is that the right word for the plural of synopsis?) for these shows we recomend and show them to your dad. Let him choose after reading about each. Thats how I usually pick up new shows. If I think I like it I usually do and if I think I wont I usually dont. Planning on starting Baccano tonight cause I love the setting and I like that type of anime and its art style. If he picks for himself he should like it more than what we can reccomend.

nyarlathotep

2012-01-20, 12:43 PM

Radar

2012-01-20, 01:02 PM

Didn't Planetes feature telepathic communication from BEYOND THE GRAVE?
I honestly can't say; I don't remember it that well. Scientific part of the series was well reaserched though.

Topaz

2012-01-20, 01:07 PM

I'll put in a plug for Read or Die and its sequel R.O.D. the TV.

Terraoblivion

2012-01-20, 01:19 PM

As much as I love Read or Die and especially ROD the TV, I think you could make a good case for it being too silly him. Although, he seems to be fine with odd magical powers as long as they're presented in a moderately serious manner and ROD the TV does that.

So while I'm not quite sure it is what he is looking for, I'm inclined to support this recommendation. It really is one of the best action anime I've ever seen and has the effort put into animation to back it up. I just worry that the very pulpy ova might be too silly for him.

Mercenary Pen

2012-01-20, 06:38 PM

This thing is very good, and one of the few anime space operas that are not mecha... but it's so long! Show me an anime newbie who has the time or patience to watch a 100+ episode long OVA.

I'll recommend Cowboy Bebop, like many people before me. I'll advice against Macross Plus, though.

I considered myself pretty new to anime when I watched Legend of the galactic heroes- but possibly not as new as this (think I'd watched Pokemon, Zoids, Yugioh, Macross and Gundam to near completion first)

Brother Oni

2012-01-20, 08:56 PM

Guys, stop recommending space mecha animes and other "Japanime for kids" type of stuff. His dad already expressed a distaste for it.

Given that mecha play about as big a role in Macross Plus as the jets did in Top Gun, it's only really borderline a mecha anime.

Unlike a number of other offerings here, it does have a fantastic dub, something I think the OP's father would prefer over subtitles.

2. Watch the Rouroni Kenshin movie (called Samurai X I think), but don't bother with the actual anime series. The movie is awesome, very adult. The anime not so much; very teenager.

Which movie though? According to the wikipedia article, there's 3, Trust and Betrayal, Reflection and Requiem for the Ishin Patriots.

Trust and Betrayal is the only one I would recommend, the other two requiring a decent knowledge of Japanese history or of the characters to comprehend.

Prime32

2012-01-20, 09:06 PM

Given that mecha play about as big a role in Macross Plus as the jets did in Top Gun, it's only really borderline a mecha anime.The distinction between Real Robots and Super Robots should probably be made here. Pick a wiki.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealRobot
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperRobot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Robot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Robot

MLai

2012-01-20, 09:42 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend anything featuring Super Robots which takes itself seriously. If it has Super Robots and still tries to be Star Wars/ Star Trek, I hate it on principle. I'm assuming his dad feels the same.

Gurren Lagann is pretty awesome though. But only because it doesn't take itself seriously.

I loved the Read Or Die movie, but I never watched the TV series because the reviews say it's boring and nothing like the action-packed movie. So you're saying the TV series is good?

Oh god Ms. Deep is hott.

turkishproverb

2012-01-20, 09:58 PM

MLai-Really? I can name a super-robot show that took itself very seriously, and was awesome for it.

Big. O.

Want another? Giant-Robo. Also awesome, also took itself seriously, and really not for kids.

And I'd recommend them wholeheartedly if it weren't for the poster's dad's distaste for mecha.

I'll say bebop as well. However, I'll make another rec or two.

Skull Man-A supernatural mystery series with horror elements.

Barefoot Gen-Depressing historical about a boy who survived the bomb dropping on japan.

illyrus

2012-01-20, 10:26 PM

seconding Death Note and Cowboy Bebop, and Samurai X
Kara no Kyoukai (some of the highest quality animation I've seen) link to the fight from episode 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXRWxfKBVTU&t=1m22s
Noir
Berserk

maybe:
Infinite Ryvius (basically Lord of the Flies in space, there was a robot in it but I honestly didn't even remember the robot until a friend reminded me it existed)

Terraoblivion

2012-01-20, 10:38 PM

ROD the TV is one of my favorite anime, so yeah, I'd say it is good. It isn't a whole lot like the ova, however, telling a far more character driven story and spending much more time on character development. If you're just looking for fountains of paper exploding and fast-paced action, then the first half will probably be pretty boring, but the strength of the characters is well worth it, I think. Nenene is one of my favorite characters from any anime ever and I really do like the Paper Sisters too.

And the second half has lots and lots of action, without forgetting to develop the characters too. Really, the show is just all around great, it just isn't pure, non-stop action like the movie.

Don Julio Anejo

2012-01-21, 01:57 AM

Wow... thanks for so many (awesome) suggestions everyone :smile:

Funny, but my dad did his own research and he came up with pretty much the same results: Ghost in the Shell and Cowboy Bebop. Bebop... he didn't like too much (Why? Boring. Gotta admit, it kinda is until episode 15ish or so.. random planet of the week, random criminal Spike catches and can't get paid for... that's pretty much it). Ghost in the Shell he tried. Got really turned off by the robot in episode 2, although I convinced him to keep watching.

Robots are a giant turn-off for him no matter how good they are. Yes, I know the differences between super robots and real robots. Latter I like quite a bit (even if I don't like the idea of mecha either) - two of my three favourite series are Full Metal Panic and Code Geass. It's just that he doesn't like mecha at all.

PlanetES is another great idea and I've already told him to go and try it. Baccano he's actually found on his own but found the first episode really, really confusing and stopped watching it. He might restart at some point but probably won't unless there's absolutely no other options at that point.

But one thing he did like and I'm surprised that neither myself, nor anyone else, has thought of is... Madlax! It's got all the things he's looking for... realistic animation, serious plot, lots of action, and best of all, half the story takes place at a fictional banana republic. He's watching it now and I'm thinking El Casador de la Bruja after that.. Noir is a little too sad in its overall tone.

MLai

2012-01-21, 06:35 AM

MLai-Really? I can name a super-robot show that took itself very seriously, and was awesome for it. Big. O.
Want another? Giant-Robo. Also awesome, also took itself seriously, and really not for kids.
Big O is an acquired taste, as it's purposely retro in many ways. Except for the F'ed up storyline which ends in a way that leaves you pissed off. I watched all of it on Adult Swim, but mainly because I liked the chemistry between Bruce Wayne and the robot girl.

Giant Robo... I don't even remember anything about it.:smalltongue:

Kurgan

2012-01-21, 07:55 AM

Baccano he's actually found on his own but found the first episode really, really confusing and stopped watching it. He might restart at some point but probably won't unless there's absolutely no other options at that point.

Yeah...the first episode was a mess for me when I first saw it. I had no idea what was going on until about half way into the second episode. Still, the confusion in the very beginning is worth the awesomeness that follows in my book.

Prime32

2012-01-21, 08:10 AM

Big O is an acquired taste, as it's purposely retro in many ways.The question is, have you watched Batman: The Animated Series (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEx9r5enZsk)? :smalltongue: Big O (www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnaQZgZaOkg) is basically that, except the Batsuit is bigger. Also, the dub is pretty good.

The physics are unusually realistic for a Super Robot show - most of the robots in the series move at the speed of treacle, and instead of a Rocket Punch it has the Piston Punch.
Basically, whether or not you like Super Robots does not necessarily determine whether or not you'll like Big O.

MLai

2012-01-21, 09:16 AM

Ofc I've seen most/all of the animated Batman shows. The difference between Batman and Big O:

1. Instead of being a pedophile, protag is into dolls. One with a passive aggressive snark which grows on you.
2. He has no secret identity. Everyone knows he has a giant robot. I think that's why he's such an effective "mediator."
3. The storyline is overarching, and completely f'ed up. The ending either makes no sense, or is completely stupid and makes the entire story worthless. I don't know if Lost is like this. But if it is, that's why I'm glad I actively never got into Lost.

Morph Bark

2012-01-21, 11:51 AM

Dantalian no Shoka? (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/LightNovel/BibliothecaMysticaDeDantalian) It's 12 episodes, and a similar enough setting to FMA.

Added bonus for it not being over the top, though if he's looking for something slightly action-y, Dantalian no Shoka may not be a good one to start with. It certainly has a lot of good points though.

deuxhero

2012-01-21, 01:53 PM

Yuru Yuri!

>_>
<_<

SamBurke

2012-01-21, 01:57 PM

I was gonna recommend Death Note, personally.

However, if you can figure out a way: end it before L dies. The series tapers off significantly after the only good contender against Light dies. And the final end scene is also extremely under-explained.

That said, it's a fantastic anime, with solid animation, and really, really, interesting story lines. All characters are well written, smart, and do the best possible thing all the time. I can appreciate an anime where even I can't tell the smartest thing to do, and yet the characters do it.

Prime32

2012-01-21, 02:44 PM

Eh, I prefer the manga.
And, being a Shonen Jump series, some people have called it "DBZ with the martial arts replaced by criminal investigation". :smalltongue: (as in, intelligence won't let you reach L's conclusions any more than kung fu will let you fly)

turkishproverb

2012-01-21, 04:34 PM

Big O is an acquired taste, as it's purposely retro in many ways. Except for the F'ed up storyline which ends in a way that leaves you pissed off. I watched all of it on Adult Swim, but mainly because I liked the chemistry between Bruce Wayne and the robot girl.

Giant Robo... I don't even remember anything about it.:smalltongue:

Eh, the ending isn't quite as weird as you think, given the hints throughout the entire smerping series. Goodness sake, the catchphrase BIG O...SHOWTIME!
should have been a clue.

Ofc I've seen most/all of the animated Batman shows. The difference between Batman and Big O:

1. Instead of being a pedophile, protag is into dolls. One with a passive aggressive snark which grows on you.
2. He has no secret identity. Everyone knows he has a giant robot. I think that's why he's such an effective "mediator."
3. The storyline is overarching, and completely f'ed up. The ending either makes no sense, or is completely stupid and makes the entire story worthless. I don't know if Lost is like this. But if it is, that's why I'm glad I actively never got into Lost.

...

I don't know where to begin correcting this.
But to just adress your numerical points in as short a period a spossible:

1. there are so many different things wrong with this comment I'm going to assume it's a joke for the sake of civility.
2. Actually, in season 1 most people didn't know he was the one driving the "Megaduece" at all.
3. The ending was screwy, but made sense in context of the series. Makes me curious what the planned season 3 was going to go like.

H Birchgrove

2012-01-21, 07:12 PM

Lensman: Power of the Lens and Galactic Patrol, if you can find them.

MLai

2012-01-21, 10:14 PM

However, if you can figure out a way: end it before L blah blah.........
The single best non-manga way to enjoy Death Note, IMHO...

1. Watch the anime right before L blah blahs. Actually, right before the awkward boy-on-boy scene. That was completely unnecessary, especially because you're going to proceed to #2...
2. Immediately stop watching the anime. Pretend the rest of it doesn't exist.
3. Watch the 2nd live-action movie. Tell yourself this is exactly how the story continued and ends.

I absolutely loved the "alternate ending" of the live-action movie. It is extremely poetic, and does not demean either one of the 2 major characters.

Incidentally, there was a spin-off movie of Death Note after "the end"...
L solves a biological terrorism case in his last month of life. I thought the premise was ingenious, because L basically has a "superpower" for this movie: Because he is "written to die" after exactly 1 month, he is effectively immortal before that deadline.

I was really hoping that the movie plays up on this in some sort of epic way. For example, bad guys getting smushed via various The Omen ways (yes The Omen did it long before Final Destination) before they could shoot L, etc. I was extremely disappointed that this never happened. Although L certainly acted as if he always expected it to happen, throwing himself headlong into dangers.

Big O: Eh, the ending isn't quite as weird as you think, given the hints throughout the entire smerping series.
1. Ofc it's a joke.

2. I didn't make the distinction between the seasons because I watched the Adult Swim reruns (it was on everyday until it finished).

3. The ending was not a good twist in a "Oh wow that's awesome, now everything makes sense!" Rather, it was "Waitaminute, that means the entire story was pointless! Why did we even bother?!"
For god's sake, the twist didn't even happen to the protag; it all happened to somebody we couldn't give a **** about. Which means for the protags we came to care about in the series, the entire thing never even happened to them! None of the emotions and development we saw them have, ever really happened!

And the protags we watched onscreen? They weren't the protags at all! They were just hallucinations from the brain of someone we don't care about!!!

So tell me why I shouldn't be pissed.

turkishproverb

2012-01-21, 11:42 PM

The single best non-manga way to enjoy Death Note, IMHO...

1. Watch the anime right before L blah blahs. Actually, right before the awkward boy-on-boy scene. That was completely unnecessary, especially because you're going to proceed to #2...
2. Immediately stop watching the anime. Pretend the rest of it doesn't exist.
3. Watch the 2nd live-action movie. Tell yourself this is exactly how the story continued and ends.

I absolutely loved the "alternate ending" of the live-action movie. It is extremely poetic, and does not demean either one of the 2 major characters.

Incidentally, there was a spin-off movie of Death Note after "the end"...
L solves a biological terrorism case in his last month of life. I thought the premise was ingenious, because L basically has a "superpower" for this movie: Because he is "written to die" after exactly 1 month, he is effectively immortal before that deadline.

I was really hoping that the movie plays up on this in some sort of epic way. For example, bad guys getting smushed via various The Omen ways (yes The Omen did it long before Final Destination) before they could shoot L, etc. I was extremely disappointed that this never happened. Although L certainly acted as if he always expected it to happen, throwing himself headlong into dangers.

This I'll agree with. much better ending.

1. Ofc it's a joke.

2. I didn't make the distinction between the seasons because I watched the Adult Swim reruns (it was on everyday until it finished).

3. The ending was not a good twist in a "Oh wow that's awesome, now everything makes sense!" Rather, it was "Waitaminute, that means the entire story was pointless! Why did we even bother?!"
For god's sake, the twist didn't even happen to the protag; it all happened to somebody we couldn't give a **** about. Which means for the protags we came to care about in the series, the entire thing never even happened to them! None of the emotions and development we saw them have, ever really happened!

And the protags we watched onscreen? They weren't the protags at all! They were just hallucinations from the brain of someone we don't care about!!!

So tell me why I shouldn't be pissed.

1. Thought so, glad to be sure.
2. that's still more "outed identity halfway through" than "no secret identity".
3. Again A: It's still obviously built to.
B. The ending is a bit more complex than you're making it out to be.
If the characters are a simulation, it's never made clear that they are a simulation "for" someone, but rather a running digitized reality/mentally programmable reality that gets reset in a new form. In effect, it's not that those characters never existed, it's that their existence wasn't what it was thought to be. In effect, they are all on a stage, playing the part, and each time, like in theater, the performance may not be quite the same as the last. While the characters are in place, the script they follow is malleable according to other factors, from the audience to the other players to the sets and weather. Further, you seem to be suggesting that the mere fact existence is transient makes it valueless. This in itself is a philosophical point the work touches on.

Again, this was intended to be explored in a third season, so it's less ending on a WTF downer nothing had meaning ending, and more ending on a cliffhanger.

horngeek

2012-01-22, 05:56 AM

thubby

2012-01-22, 06:42 AM

(as in, intelligence won't let you reach L's conclusions any more than kung fu will let you fly)

such as...?
honestly, a lot of what they did was over the top, but by his own admission L has a really crappy field of options. he doesnt expect a lot of what he does to work. and it doesn't. he just keeps milling the only things he has to work with.

Bouregard

2012-01-22, 11:21 AM

Noir, GitS and Cowboy Bebop

MLai

2012-01-22, 11:26 AM

Fullmetal Alchemist.
The second one. :smalltongue:
Seriously, Brotherhood is just as, if not more, awesome than the first series. For bonus points, it's based off the original manga, instead of going off and doing its own thing partway through.
Me and a friend both agree the 1st one is better than the 2nd one in several aspects, and neither of us ever read the manga so we're not biased.

The 2nd one, which is faithful to the manga, reads like a straight action shonen. It's good, but it's a straight shonen.

The 1st one has a slower pace, yes. And a few things feel confusing, yes. But it's more like a horror drama. That's quite refreshing after watching your 10th straight action shonen series.

Weezer

2012-01-22, 06:54 PM

Lensman: Power of the Lens and Galactic Patrol, if you can find them.

Wait. They made a Lensman anime? Why wasn't I told about this earlier? :smallmad:

H Birchgrove

2012-01-22, 09:16 PM

Wait. They made a Lensman anime? Why wasn't I told about this earlier? :smallmad:
I haven't watched it (yet) but I read the American comic book version (http://milehighcomics.com/mcgi-bin/search.cgi) (published by the now defunct Malibu Comics). It's very entertaining but I wonder how much is from Doc E.E. Smith and how much is stolen from Star Wars (which is ironic since Star Wars is partially inspired from the Lensman novels :smalltongue: ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_%28anime%29

Only the film and four episodes of the TV-series were dubbed to English.

The animation looks between decent and good (http://youtu.be/yNSz1vF5LZc) if a bit dated (http://youtu.be/CC0k-FFqads).

Terraoblivion

2012-01-22, 09:26 PM

That is if by "a bit dated" you mean "so 80s that the only way it could be more 80s is by being Dancougar".:smalltongue:

H Birchgrove

2012-01-22, 09:39 PM

That is if by "a bit dated" you mean "so 80s that the only way it could be more 80s is by being Dancougar".:smalltongue:
My anime knowledge checks are limited to Studio Ghibli, mostly.

The first anime I was exposed to was *shudder* Sandy Bell (http://youtu.be/F6gw56-tcHk), through my elder sister who rented it way back when VHS was still hip and high tech. I only remember that it was about a girl who... did stuff. :smalltongue:

Terraoblivion

2012-01-22, 09:55 PM

H Birchgrove

2012-01-22, 10:03 PM

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ij1CYyUQ3k) is Dancougar, quite possibly the only thing more 80s than the actual 80s. If it wasn't for the fact that it actually is from the eighties, it looks like a parody of something from back then.
TV sci-fi anime seems to love flashes and "bziing!" sound effects. :smallwink:

The robot guy looks pretty similar to a Transformer... :smallconfused:

MLai

2012-01-23, 12:12 AM

The first anime I was exposed to was *shudder* Sandy Bell (http://youtu.be/F6gw56-tcHk), through my elder sister who rented it way back when VHS was still hip and high tech. I only remember that it was about a girl who... did stuff. :smalltongue:
OMG you didn't just show me THAT. I had completely forgotten about it. The only thing I remember about that show was how I'd get into fights with my cousin every night because he wants to watch it and I'd call him a girl for wanting to watch it instead of a giant robot show which was on at the same time.

We've never even heard of VHS (or Beta), so the only way to settle it was with fists and nails. Or gramps. Usually fists and nails are tried first.

The giant robot show wasn't Dancougar. Though if it was Dancougar, I'm sure I would have fought twice as hard. OMG BZIIIIING.

CarpeGuitarrem

2012-01-23, 12:19 AM

Mmmm yeah, Madlax would be excellent. Unfortunately, he may not be happy with the pacing of Noir, which is unfortunate, as I have a soft spot for that series as well.

Gankutsuou has a very...unique setting (19th century Alexander Dumas France meets stylish spaceships), it does have a very small appearance by mechs (giant armor battlesuits, but they look more like armor than robots), and the animation style is highly trippy, but the plot is dark, gothic, fantastic, and it's the best adaptation of The Count of Monte Cristo that I've ever seen.

Feytalist

2012-01-23, 04:53 AM

I'd forgotten about Noir. May be worth a look. Interesting plot line, at least.

Gankutsuou is... busy. It took me a while to get used to the art, but it's really good. And of course it's the Count of Monte Cristo, which is a classic.

Try and get Ghost in the Shell the movies. He might enjoy them a bit more than the series.

Psyren

2012-01-23, 12:49 PM

I was going to suggest Code Geass before I saw the "no mecha" provision. But it's really not about the mecha :smallfrown:

Anyway, I think he'll like Death Note and Cowboy Bebop as were previously suggested. Maybe Outlaw Star too, and Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi is great for laughs.

MLai

2012-01-23, 04:58 PM

His Dad didn't like Cowboy Bebop. Maaan, forget him. I'm not crazy about episodic animes either, but even I totally got into Cowboy Bebop after eps. 5 (Ballad of Fallen Angels).

Tell your Dad to just watch CB the movie, then. It's self-contained so you don't need to watch the TV shows first.

darksolitaire

2012-01-23, 05:14 PM

Death Note has been mentioned few times, but that doesn't stop me from mentioning it again :smallbiggrin:

Kaiji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiji_(manga)) is another anime I would consider. Serious, mature, cruelling and inhumane, if you get into it. It's listed as drama/sports/gambling, but I would add thriller to the mix. Ymmv, naturally.

Zawazawa...zawa.

Knaight

2012-01-26, 11:20 AM

I'd second Noir and Planetes. Planetes in particular is an example of very hard science fiction, and in my experience people with no tolerance for mecha tend to be fond of the genre. On top of these, I'd add the movie Tokyo Godfathers, which is at least on par with the work from Ghibli, if not better.

Triscuitable

2012-01-26, 11:25 PM

Fist of the North Star?

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure?

Manliest anime I can think of. Also the only anime I watch/read.

SkySonata

2012-01-27, 02:56 AM

Echowinds

2012-01-27, 04:50 AM

I really don't know base simply on Black Lagoon and FMA, since besides having a healthy amount of action those two don't really share the same genre nor target demographic.

For those that recommend Noir, I feel that Canaan might be a little quicker in pacing even as both shares some similar themes. It can feel Black Lagoonish in some scenes. It's also newer and feel more fluid animation wise compared to Noir.

Darker than Black does have some rather fantastical powers, but I feel it is as coherent as the ones found in FMA.

For something completely different, I feel that Eden of the East, Last Exile (the original), Tokyo Magnitude 8.0, and Steins;Gate are highly interesting as well.

H Birchgrove

2012-01-27, 11:44 AM

At least visually and production-wise, Inspector Gadget (the original series) is anime. Or part anime, part French animation.

It's also very funny. :smallbiggrin:

Clertar

2012-01-27, 01:06 PM

I'd reccomend Yawara!, by the same author as Monster. An interesting seinen with well made characters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFWud8lkdBw

Radar

2012-01-27, 03:27 PM

I was thinking wether to propose Ninja Scroll or not. On one hand, it's a great movie with stunning animation, story and characters, on the other the uncut version has a particular R18+ scene, which one might not be comfortable showing to one's parent.

Dr.Epic

2012-01-27, 05:19 PM

FLCL; just because he could take some lesson from that dad and improve his parenting skills (I'm talking mostly about episode 5).:smallwink:

Hida Reju

2012-02-08, 07:13 AM

So he wants some epic non mecha anime...

Last Exile - One of the best ever
Moribito - Guardian of the Spirit - a bit slow to start but very cool
C - The Money of Soul and Possibility Control - One of the best of last year
Eden of the East - not an action filled one but very amusing.
Gungrave - revenge/forgiveness story with the volume turned up to 11
Hellsing:Ultimate - If he likes graphic horror at all
Iron Man - Yes they made an anime and I still enjoyed it as an Iron Man fan.
Witch Hunter Robin - action and drama with a good story.
Kenichi the Mightiest disciple - Martial Arts that is a bit over the top but not Fist of the north star or DBZ.
Ninja Scroll the TV series - Not as brutal as movie still good.

MLai

2012-02-08, 08:42 AM

Witch Hunter Robin - action and drama with a good story.
Kenichi the Mightiest disciple - Martial Arts that is a bit over the top but not Fist of the north star or DBZ.
Ninja Scroll the TV series - Not as brutal as movie still good.
Witch Hunter Robin - Pretty good choice if your dad liked X-Files. The actors in the anime are just as deadpan.
Kenichi - May be too "Naruto" in art style and presentation, for a dad.
Ninja Scroll the TV - No no no. If you have a hankerin' for a TV series in the vein of Ninja Scroll, watch BASILISK. Please. And then, watch Shigurui Death Frenzy. There's just too much *great* adult feudal Japan bloody action series out there, to waste time watching Ninja Scroll the TV.

darthbobcat

2012-02-10, 12:44 AM

I think a good bellweather anime for people not into it is Lupin III Castle of Cagliostro. It's a great film that you can watch with the whole family. If they don't like it, you might just be out of luck.

Socratov

2012-02-11, 09:32 AM

I also recommend cowboy Bebop, and enter Haruhi, it has some weird things, but is in philosophical aspect quite interesting and it doesn't really turns **** up to eleven :smallamused:

MLai

2012-02-11, 10:10 PM

You have to be familiar with anime in general (including all the aspects that Dad hates) in order to get everything that happens in Haruhi Suzumiya.

Terraoblivion

2012-02-11, 10:16 PM

turkishproverb

2012-02-12, 12:08 AM

There are...additional layers if you're familiar with anime.

Like the LotGH references in Day of Sagittarius, or Yuki's similarity to a certain Rei.

turkishvan2

2012-02-12, 02:09 AM

I think Paranoia Agent would be a good choice. Or maybe Kino's Journey?

Terraoblivion

2012-02-12, 05:47 AM

I know, just saying that I don't see why people say they're vital to know. All they really add is a few injokes, while the heavy lifting of the show is done by entirely different things. Case in point I hadn't watched either LoGH, still haven't, or Gundam when I watched Day of Sagittarius, but the episode was still fun and still showcased personality. Similarly, Yuki's resemblance to Rei isn't really a major character point, nor does it hold significance in the plot, it's just a reference.

Also, these two seems to be the only ones that come up for the first season. Knowing all the obscure philosophy Itsuki jokes uses to screw with Kyon or all the weird science, archeology and similar Kyon references seems to be at least as important as the anime things. Really, it's not that I don't know they're there or that I don't recognize them, it's that I don't get why people treat them as being important.

Drascin

2012-02-12, 06:02 AM

I keep hearing that and I keep being baffled. Apart from the Gundam references in Day of Sagittarius what are the big anime references? People keep saying that they're there, but nobody ever give any examples and I keep not seeing them. There are murder mysteries, aliens, time travelers, mysterious transfer students and so on, but none of those things are particularly anime based. Nor is Haruhi's insanity, which refers more to Hollywood movies and tv dramas when she refer to fiction, Kyon's snark or Yuki's lack of emotion.

None of the really substantial parts of the show seem to demand any major knowledge of anime, as opposed to fiction in general, and the references there are can be skipped if you don't know the source material. I didn't know Gundam when I first watched Haruhi and I enjoyed Day of Sagittarius just fine as a reference to space opera, for example.

You can't really watch the first episode without being at least moderately acquainted with the more ridiculous anime cliches, either.

Hell, the episode is a bit hard to watch (not understand, watch. As in, "oh god why am I even watching this thing") even knowing they're sending up a million other things by way of Haruhi's incompetence as a director and reliance in them (some anime and some not. The whole Mahou Shoujo combat waitress angle is likely to make someone go "wait, wat" unless they at least know anime HAS done characters like that, because moe combat characters in maid outfits is not really a thing elsewhere :smalltongue:). Not knowing it I would probably guess the thing is nearly entirely unwatchable.

Prime32

2012-02-12, 08:04 AM

Yes, it must be emphasised very strongly that the first episode in broadcast episode is deliberately bizarre and non-sequitur, and nothing like the rest of the series.

MLai

2012-02-12, 09:46 AM

I take it that this Dad is really looking for anime that is not mired in Jpnese quirks. Haruhi Suzumiya is mired in Jpnese quirks. Not so much for understanding the plot, but for full enjoyment. Just the basic premise of the story --fantastically weird events happening in a high school-- would already try a Dad's patience.

I'm not really posting for the Dad's benefit anymore, but more just following along the "rules" of the thread. This isn't a thread where you just list down any good anime that you can think of.

TechnOkami

2012-02-12, 09:54 AM

Mushishi.

That is all.

Feytalist

2012-02-13, 02:43 AM

Mushishi.

That is all.

I think I recommended it over on the first page already.

But yes. Mushishi. That is all.

MLai

2012-02-13, 02:51 AM

While I liked Mushishi, unfortunately it was mostly episodic, and the Dad already expressed that he doesn't want episodic. He even thought Cowboy Bebop was too much so. Go figure.

turkishproverb

2012-02-13, 11:04 AM

While I liked Mushishi, unfortunately it was mostly episodic, and the Dad already expressed that he doesn't want episodic. He even thought Cowboy Bebop was too much so. Go figure.

So then I'm guessing he hates ALL American television. And pretty much all british television outside soaps..

aff587

2012-02-13, 12:18 PM

Terraoblivion should find sth here:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HaruhiSuzumiya/TropesA-E
there are references to evangelion in the second season, a street fighter move and lots of other stuff.

and considering the anime for dad, i'd say go with cowboy bebop, noir or madlax, death note, sth 80ish like cat's eye or city hunter, highschool of the dead if he is the type for that (beware of the underwear). If he is ok with japanese original with subtitles, maybe Another if he likes horror, mystery and the occassional gory moment.

Terraoblivion

2012-02-13, 01:57 PM

Terraoblivion should find sth here:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HaruhiSuzumiya/TropesA-E
there are references to evangelion in the second season, a street fighter move and lots of other stuff.

Yes, and Macross missiles from Kyon's bike and talk about apathy syndrome. There is a reference to Gundam, I believe, one of the times Kyon sheds the frog costume too.

I never said that the references weren't there, because they obviously and I can indeed spot many of them when watching. What I said was that I don't consider them terribly important to how much you'll enjoy the show or how readily you'll understand the plot and characters. Which makes sense, the overwhelming majority of those references were added by KyoAni and weren't part of the original stories.

MLai

2012-02-14, 06:03 AM

Ooh, ooh, I got another one. GOLGO 13. Hardcore old school superspy adventures. And he indeed has South American missions~!! :smallsmile:

I never said that the references weren't there, because they obviously and I can indeed spot many of them when watching. What I said was that I don't consider them terribly important to how much you'll enjoy the show.
It seems you take too much anime conventions for granted so you don't even see them anymore.

Haruhi anime is set in a Jpnese high school. It stars hyperactive Jpnese high school students, many of whom are intentional character cliches (on the surface). Many of its plot elements purposely flirt with anime cliches. It has a Jpnese high school bazaar. American high schools don't have such a thing; we have proms. Did I mention the hyperactive? That can be grating for non-Jpnese ppl who aren't used to or expecting it.

Terraoblivion

2012-02-14, 06:53 AM

Given that it was like the fourth anime I saw...I kinda doubt it. Not to mention those things were all in the books, written by Tanigawa who is not an otaku and doesn't actually watch anime, just like he doesn't really play video games. He's a science fiction nerd and heavily into science, archeology and similar, rather than typical anime clichés. The big thing he constantly returns to in the books is Yuki's fondness for Hyperion, for example, and the things Kyon refers to are all things you'd expect to hear about in National Geographic rather than anime.

Also, guess what, when something is set in a foreign setting, I expect there to be things there that we don't have at home, like the school festival. Similarly, no small part of the reason for the high school setting is because it's where people in their mid-late teens are and the story wouldn't work for any other age group. Younger and the characters seem far too mature, older and they would seem strangely childish in their concerns over how to grow up and fit into society. It seems more to me that you're so used to things being anime clichés that you can't think of any other explanation for their presence.

I'd also like to point out that even if those typical anime elements are there because they're typical anime elements, rather than being useful for the story Tanigawa wanted to tell, then so what? They aren't hard to understand on their own even if it's your first exposure to them.

Also, I question that ability to watch any kind of non-native fiction of someone who gets tripped up by something as basic as it taking place in a high school or the academic year in said high school being different from what they're used to. I just can't see how anybody would have a hard time comprehending a story set in high school simply because it's set in a high school. Similarly, I can't see how said high school being slightly different from what they're used to would trip people up either. This might be because I'm Danish and grew up with most entertainment around me being from a foreign culture, in this case the US, but I've never seen anybody here having a hard time comprehending such things as high school students driving cars, school sports teams existing or having prom as some mythological event and those are all common in American entertainment oriented towards teens.

The hyperactivity is where you have somewhat of a point, though I don't really think that it is that uncommon outside Japan for teens and kids to be portrayed that way. Not to mention that it's not just there, it's there to show that Haruhi is bloody nuts and behaving in bizarre ways that differ from those of normal people. In other words it's used because it's weird, in order to underscore the weirdness. Unless you want to claim that, say, Kyon or Yuki are hyperactive. And again, is it so hard to understand without having seen other anime?

Silfir

2012-02-14, 07:10 AM

Did someone say Seirei no Moribito? Seirei no Moribito.

MLai

2012-02-14, 07:29 PM

Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit!
Yes, awesome anime. If the Dad watched dynastic China kung fu movies, and liked them, then he should be fine with this series. Oh, to address one of his pet peeves (IIRC), there is no wire-fu in this series.

@ Terraoblivion:
Hey, I like Haruhi. Don't tear my throat out. :smalltongue:
You have to see it from the POV of someone not so magnanimous as you.
Does the average 40 y/o man like to watch a TV series about high school kids? Well, NOT in America! And specifically, I've read this entire thread (because it was great finding anime I've missed), and my impression of this Dad is that he doesn't like crazy sci-fi, especially not giant robots or things that are commonly seen around giant robots (such as big Jpnese space cruisers), and he doesn't want things that are in Japan. He wants them in South America (or other militarized 3rd-world hotzones), with adult (and hot) characters.

Terraoblivion

2012-02-14, 07:47 PM

All of which are very good points and indeed why I didn't recommend the show myself, despite it being my favorite anime ever. However, they aren't really of the "you must know this much anime to get this" kind. :smalltongue:

They're really more about him not really being the target audience, which is quite true. For Haruhi as well as most other anime, really.

Knaight

2012-02-14, 08:13 PM

Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit!
Yes, awesome anime. If the Dad watched dynastic China kung fu movies, and liked them, then he should be fine with this series. Oh, to address one of his pet peeves (IIRC), there is no wire-fu in this series.

Moribito isn't an action anime by any stretch of the imagination. It has fight scenes, yes. More than that, it has incredible fight scenes - though that is due more to the art being good throughout. It's more about relationships than anything else - it's just that it primarily covers non-romantic relationships, and includes both societies and people in the cast. Moreover, both the societies and people are well developed, which isn't surprising as it is based on a book written by an anthropologist.

MLai

2012-02-14, 11:25 PM

The main character in that series reminds me of an Asian Samus, back before a certain Team Ninja video game happened. :smallredface:

In fact, whose stupid idea was it to make Samus a Playboy centerfold blonde?

Daer

2012-02-14, 11:35 PM

romance of the three kingdoms, berserk,claymore, appleseed, basilisk, battle angel alita, lain, trigun, record of lodoss war, detroit metal city, ERGO PROXY , full metal panic, gantz, genshiken, black heaven ,lupin 3rd, samurai 7. spice and wolf

Those should have at least some interesting series.

Lifeson

2012-02-15, 03:57 PM

Recommend him Kara No Kyoukai, Kaze No Stigma, and Samurai Champloo.

Especially Samurai Champloo. It's like Cowboy Bebop, but with hiphop and crazy swordsmen.

MLai

2012-02-15, 10:22 PM

By that extension, recommend Afro Samurai 1 & 2.
No brain function necessary for viewing. Candy for eyes only. :smallsmile:

Brewdude

2012-02-21, 06:27 PM

Spice and Wolf, for when he wants a break.

If you can find any old Dirty Pair stuff, ...hot chicks who always find their target...AFTER the bastage completes his dastardly plot...fun fight scenes too.

More love for Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro

As for Paranoia Agent, just google it for spoilers discussing what it's actually all about.

Knaight

2012-02-21, 09:42 PM

Spice and Wolf, for when he wants a break.

I'd recommend against this. If you have any understanding at all of how late medieval or early renaissance economies actually worked it will have you yelling at the screen.

Echowinds

2012-02-22, 06:25 AM

Spice and Wolf is more about the banter and interaction between Horo and Lawrence rather than the economics though. Personally they are one of the more interesting duos in recent anime.

The show involves a lot of talking, which means it's not for action fans. It's mostly character driven and the supporting cast is almost irrelevant beyond individual arcs. It's not quite slice of life though, and as a whole the series doesn't really have something to compare to.

Terraoblivion

2012-02-22, 08:11 AM

I'd recommend against this. If you have any understanding at all of how late medieval or early renaissance economies actually worked it will have you yelling at the screen.

Can you elaborate on the problems? I'm curious as to which parts you're thinking about.

Knaight

2012-02-23, 02:48 AM

Can you elaborate on the problems? I'm curious as to which parts you're thinking about.

I'm trying to avoid just saying "all of it", but it's pretty bad. However, there were a few examples where it was particularly egregious.
1) The price of armor dropped drastically, during an invasion. So, basically, an event which jacks the demand way up caused the price to fall. No.
2) The plot regarding the sudden drop in value of a particular coin. That was just nonsensical.

Honestly though, it's more that it is pretty terrible throughout than any particular event. Occasionally some actual cleverness regarding the economics kicks in, but it's usually just bad.

MLai

2012-02-23, 06:59 AM

Interesting. Now you make me want to see it.

Terraoblivion

2012-02-23, 07:10 AM

I'm trying to avoid just saying "all of it", but it's pretty bad. However, there were a few examples where it was particularly egregious.
1) The price of armor dropped drastically, during an invasion. So, basically, an event which jacks the demand way up caused the price to fall. No.
2) The plot regarding the sudden drop in value of a particular coin. That was just nonsensical.

Honestly though, it's more that it is pretty terrible throughout than any particular event. Occasionally some actual cleverness regarding the economics kicks in, but it's usually just bad.

If I remember correctly, the drop in armor prices was caused by political conflicts between the aggressors in the upcoming invasion causing it to be abandoned. So suddenly the market was flooded with armor that no longer had an immediate use. Basically, people expected demand to be far higher and rushed in to fulfill it, only for it to fail to manifest causing a lot of people to be stuck with most of their liquid capital invested in a good that had no particular worth at the time. Also, an event increasing demand can lower prices on its own if too many people try to take advantage of it at once, increasing supply beyond the new, higher demand. It rarely happens, especially with material goods, but it is possible.

Similarly, as far as I can recall the drop in value of the coin was because of plans of issuing a coin with a higher metal purity than the one in question. Once it hit the market the "better", that is to say more reliably backed, coin would then supplant the other one which relied on political backing as opposed to intrinsic material value. If I remember correctly here, that is something that actually happened multiple times during the military thanks to weak central authorities.

Brother Oni

2012-02-23, 07:24 AM

Similarly, as far as I can recall the drop in value of the coin was because of plans of issuing a coin with a higher metal purity than the one in question. Once it hit the market the "better", that is to say more reliably backed, coin would then supplant the other one which relied on political backing as opposed to intrinsic material value. If I remember correctly here, that is something that actually happened multiple times during the military thanks to weak central authorities.

With paper money I can see that happening, since all money is just a promissory note and is worth whatever is printed on the note.

With coins however, the quality of the coinage shouldn't have an effect since the coin is technically a promissory note as well, since nobody in their right mind would make a coin where the raw materials cost is equal or more than what the coin is worth.
If the new coin was minted with a different design (which is something slightly different from just having a higher purity coin), thus showing it was backed by a different group AND the old coinage no longer being accepted, then I can see why the old coin (or rather the entire currency) would drop in value.

Terraoblivion

2012-02-23, 08:10 AM

Actually, coinage was based on material worth rather than functioning as a promissory note in Europe until the late 16th century at the earliest. The importance in official minting was guaranteeing the metal content of the coin rather than have it stand in the stead of materials stored somewhere. This is why weighing coins as opposed to simply counting them was often done. However, the value of a coin was still set at some number officially and often princes and city councils performing minting often cheated by lowering the content of precious metals in the coin in favor of cheaper substances, giving them a quick boost in finances in exchange for undermining trust in the coin in question.

This idea in money being an inherent function of certain materials, mostly gold and silver, only truly started falling out of favor after the dramatic inflation of these substances caused by the Spanish flooding the market with them in the 16th century. Before that value meant the inherent value of the material in both popular and academic conception and nobody was going to rely on perpetually indebted, warmongering princes to hold your gold and just rely on a small token to symbolize it. Which makes sense given how often the princes of Europe got up to expropriating property, trying to weasel themselves out of debt and similar.

Don Julio Anejo

2012-02-23, 08:39 AM

Wow, can't believe the thread is still going :smallsmile:

Dad ended up watching FMA: Brotherhood, Ghost in the Shell and Madlax, with plans to watch Death Note later. Anything else is either I know to be too immature/childish for him, or he's refused. Haruhi Suzumiya he would simply not understand at all, for example. Hell, I barely did (but Kyon's snark and Haruhi's zany schemes more than made up for the lack of understanding).

Seirei no Moribito I should probably watch myself at some point (have been meaning to get around to it but still got to catch up on Castle, HIMYM and Burn Notice). At that point I might see if he'll like it.

Spice and Wolf I've been wanting to make him watch way before any of his dabbling into anime at all. Why? He's a financial analyst, or more accurately, a daytrader who makes his own models. The show is all about money making schemes. And why you shouldn't invest into illiquid assets on an unconfirmed rumour :tongue:

BTW, IIRC, the story behind coin speculation was that one of the nobles was either granted the right to mint (or was counterfeiting) said coin. And since he used a lower silver content than the official coin, the price was expected to drop once people noticed.

And also, bank notes are exactly that - the prototype behind them was promissory notes issued by the bank, a sort of traveler's cheques, where you'd deposit money in one branch, get a note, and use it to claim the money at a different branch. At some point governments started issuing them for large sums. It's only in 19th century or so that coins started to fall out of favour, but by then the governments have been stable for a long time.