[3.5] Help Me Optimize my Cleric!

[skywalker]

Sup, Playground? It's been a few seconds since I was last here, but I'd like to ask you guys for some help. I know it's not exactly rocket science to optimize a cleric, but bear with me here: I want a very specific type of optimization, and it's been ages since I've mucked about with 3.5.

So our DM started us on Red Hand of Doom tonight. He didn't tell us it was Red Hand of Doom, but its not very difficult to figure out which module we're using. Now, the first fight was not quite what I've come to expect from a first fight. There was much kicking of PC arse. Nobody went down, but I attribute that to the Crusader, and not to me. I wound up burning 8 charges off of my wand of lesser vigor, tho, which is more worrisome to me. 50 charges isn't going to go very far if this happens after every fight. That's fine, we've all been down the "don't heal in combat unless you're a Crusader" road, and frankly one of my goals is to prove to this party (which is mostly CO-ignorant) that "cleric-as-healbot" is not only unnecessary, it's also sub-optimal. My first question (without spoiling the module) is: is this a realistic goal, or am I going to run into more of the same?

Second, what can I do to make this guy better? I'm set on build (and yes, there are some choices that are concessions to that mysterious entity known as "flavor," another new concept for me) to this point since I've played him, but ideas for further class levels, feats, and spell selections are encouraged. Point me in the direction of spells and tactics to have up my sleeve. Here's the build:

Human Monk1/Cleric(Fharlanghn)4
Str10, Dex14, Con10, Int12, Wis19, Cha14
Domains: Travel, Celerity
Feats: Intuitive Attack, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell (You can see where this is going)
Magic Items of Note: Bracers and Amulet of Armor, Wands of CLW, Lesser Vigor and Shield of Faith

Tonight I popped Bless and a Hold Person, then wailed on folks with my Spiritual Weapon and my good old-fashioned quarterstaff.

Thoughts?

[TroubleBrewing]

Ditch the monk level. Seriously.

It's keeping you from getting access to 3rd level spells.

Here's a handbook, (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866830/The_Cleric_Handbook) here's a handbook, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0), and here's a link to a TON of handy resources for optimization work. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872646/Some_handy_links_for_CO_work)

[Urpriest]

My understanding is that Red Hand of Doom is fairly fast-paced as modules go. That said, I'd either go for a decently unlimited source of out of combat healing (Touch of Healing reserve feat et al) or a larger focus on BFC. The first should be coverable by Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor pretty soon anyway, while the latter is helpful in general. If there's an arcanist in the party they should be helping with BFC.

Also, are you going for Sacred Fist? If not then I agree with the above poster, the monk level won't do much for you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human Monk1/Cleric(Fharlanghn) 4 5
Str10, Dex14, Con10, Int12, Wis19, Cha14
Domains: Travel, Celerity
Feats: Intuitive Attack, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell
Magic Items of Note: Bracers and Amulet of Armor, Wands of Ice Slick (FB) CLW, Lesser Vigor and Shield of Faith, Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC)

You can get all the relevant class features of a Monk 5 by wearing a Monk's Belt from the DMG, multiclassing for that is a complete waste. Look, now you can cast Haste on the party!

The presence of Intuitive Attack reveals two things: 1. Your character is good-aligned to the point of Exalted status; 2. BoED is available for use. That means you should be casting Luminous Armor every day, Extended with the metamagic rod, and using the RoBR to fix the Str damage you take when the spell expires. You can also cast Magic Vestment on that, Extended with the rod, to grant an Enhancement bonus to the armor bonus it gives you, but that's probably not really worth the spell slot until 8th+.

If you're using regular Cleric instead of Cloistered Cleric, then there's no reason not to use a heavy shield as well, at least until you can afford the Monk's Belt. If there's a Wizard in the party, make him prepare Rope Trick every day and let him borrow your metamagic rod when he casts it.

Intuitive Attack itself, along with the Monk level, are entirely counterproductive. If you need to make melee attacks, cast Ice Axe (SC). You don't even need to have wands for healing, just DMM: Persist a Mass Lesser Vigor (SC) and your whole party gets Fast Healing 1 all day long.

[Manateee]

The build's already in play...

[imneuromancer]

Does Red Hand of Doom have a lot of undead? If not, then maybe turn those Turn Undead attempts into mass vigor with the Sacred Healing feat. IIRC, gives you Fast Healing 3 in a 20' radius for a minute or so.

This would lessen the requirement of charges from your lesser vigor wand(s).

In one party that I am in, we have 5 people that can use Lesser Vigor wands, and we have the mantra, "No Healing in combat unless negative". Worked pretty well so far. Once when we expected to get beaten up we actually pre-buffed with lesser vigor just so no one would die and we wouldn't have to waste actions in combat saving dying people, etc.

But yeah, there are many ways to keep the cleric and druid from just being healbots. Their spells are too good at stopping damage to waste on healing.

[Need_A_Life]

Bane (Humanoid [Goblinoid]), Bane (Dragon) and Magebane were staples for my Artificer, so I'll heartily recommend those.

I'd suggest focusing on Cleric. If your GM allows, re-train the Monk level into cleric, get yourself a heavy armour (you'll likely find a few as loot) and a heavy shield (ditto).
A single level of monk won't do anything you can't do with buff spells (which says more about clerics than monks).

In general, you're looking for 1) Extra healing, 2) Long-term buffs and 3) spells like Murderous Command (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/murderous-command) that hurt enemies who fail Will saves at almost no investment.

Heroes of Battle has some nice battlefield spells to use when you reach the climax of the adventure (and possibly the end, if your GM realizes how crappy the "epilogue boss encounter" is), but since you're a cleric you'll be able to pray for those in plenty of time.

[skywalker]

One thing I've noticed that we all missed is that at my current CHA score, I don't have the number of turn attempts (7) per day to persist anything with DMM. Right now I'm at 5. So I need to start praying for a Nightstick or the build needs more adjusting than just "remove monk level."


Also, are you going for Sacred Fist? If not then I agree with the above poster, the monk level won't do much for you.

That was the plan, yes.


Human Monk1/Cleric(Fharlanghn) 4 5
Str10, Dex14, Con10, Int12, Wis19, Cha14
Domains: Travel, Celerity
Feats: Intuitive Attack, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell
Magic Items of Note: Bracers and Amulet of Armor, Wands of Ice Slick (FB) CLW, Lesser Vigor and Shield of Faith, Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC)

You can get all the relevant class features of a Monk 5 by wearing a Monk's Belt from the DMG, multiclassing for that is a complete waste. Look, now you can cast Haste on the party!

The presence of Intuitive Attack reveals two things: 1. Your character is good-aligned to the point of Exalted status; 2. BoED is available for use. That means you should be casting Luminous Armor every day, Extended with the metamagic rod, and using the RoBR to fix the Str damage you take when the spell expires. You can also cast Magic Vestment on that, Extended with the rod, to grant an Enhancement bonus to the armor bonus it gives you, but that's probably not really worth the spell slot until 8th+.

If you're using regular Cleric instead of Cloistered Cleric, then there's no reason not to use a heavy shield as well, at least until you can afford the Monk's Belt. If there's a Wizard in the party, make him prepare Rope Trick every day and let him borrow your metamagic rod when he casts it.

Intuitive Attack itself, along with the Monk level, are entirely counterproductive. If you need to make melee attacks, cast Ice Axe (SC). You don't even need to have wands for healing, just DMM: Persist a Mass Lesser Vigor (SC) and your whole party gets Fast Healing 1 all day long.

Thank you for the in-depth response. Some issues I see here: I cannot afford a monk's belt. I had 9k GP to spend, after all. So I had to work with what I could. I might could re-train the level after I can afford the belt, but until then I'm going to shy away from asking the DM to throw me off a mountain (wearing full plate with the -12 ACP to climb) or wearing a bright shiny "shoot me, I'm the healbot" sign (luminous armor).

As I noted above, I have a distinct lack of turning attempts, so I don't see the necessity of having DMM: Persist at the moment unless we can also cram an item that increases turn attempts into that equipment loadout.

Also, I have no wizard in the party, I have a sorcerer who pointedly declined to learn rope trick, or buy any scrolls or wand of it (I'm as crushed as you are, and that's not sarcasm).


Does Red Hand of Doom have a lot of undead? If not, then maybe turn those Turn Undead attempts into mass vigor with the Sacred Healing feat. IIRC, gives you Fast Healing 3 in a 20' radius for a minute or so.

The trade-off being that Sacred Healing gives every living thing in the burst Fast Healing 3, meaning the monsters just got the same buff.


Bane (Humanoid [Goblinoid]), Bane (Dragon) and Magebane were staples for my Artificer, so I'll heartily recommend those.

I'd suggest focusing on Cleric. If your GM allows, re-train the Monk level into cleric, get yourself a heavy armour (you'll likely find a few as loot) and a heavy shield (ditto).

I built this guy as a straight cleric originally. And I took serious issue with the fact that I'd be clanking around at a -12 penalty to climb, jump, swim, etc in all that armor. Nobody seems to have brought a bag of holding to chuck me in while the skill monkey skills his way past things.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Thank you for the in-depth response. Some issues I see here: I cannot afford a monk's belt. I had 9k GP to spend, after all. So I had to work with what I could. I might could re-train the level after I can afford the belt, but until then I'm going to shy away from asking the DM to throw me off a mountain (wearing full plate with the -12 ACP to climb) or wearing a bright shiny "shoot me, I'm the healbot" sign (luminous armor).

As I noted above, I have a distinct lack of turning attempts, so I don't see the necessity of having DMM: Persist at the moment unless we can also cram an item that increases turn attempts into that equipment loadout.

Also, I have no wizard in the party, I have a sorcerer who pointedly declined to learn rope trick, or buy any scrolls or wand of it (I'm as crushed as you are, and that's not sarcasm).

It's not worth it to lose a level of spellcasting forever when you could wait a few levels and pick up the Monk's Belt.

You could get a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC) for 1,000 gp, which should give +2 turning attempts, and cast Eagle's Splendor when you're buffing for another +2 turning attempts. If you can use flaws, Extra Turning would be good. You can also use Invisible Spell (Cityscape) with Luminous Armor if you want to spend a feat on that.

A Runestaff with just Rope Trick in it, usable only 1/day, will cost 800 gp.

[Heatwizard]

The trade-off being that Sacred Healing gives every living thing in the burst Fast Healing 3, meaning the monsters just got the same buff.
Not if you put 'em down first. When you want to be firing on all cylinders as a cleric, you buff up and join the frontline in combat. Healing is best done in the aftermath.


I built this guy as a straight cleric originally. And I took serious issue with the fact that I'd be clanking around at a -12 penalty to climb, jump, swim, etc in all that armor. Nobody seems to have brought a bag of holding to chuck me in while the skill monkey skills his way past things.
How much climbing and jumping do you really expect to be doing, though?

[Mystral]

As a level 5 cleric with the travel domain, you get fly as a domain skill. Why do you still need climbing, again?

Get a reliquary holy symbol, it costs 1000 Gold and with the advised feat selection, you get 2 additional turn attempts, just enough to power dmm (persist).

[Aemoh87]

My understanding is that Red Hand of Doom is fairly fast-paced as modules go. That said, I'd either go for a decently unlimited source of out of combat healing (Touch of Healing reserve feat et al) or a larger focus on BFC. The first should be coverable by Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor pretty soon anyway, while the latter is helpful in general. If there's an arcanist in the party they should be helping with BFC.

Also, are you going for Sacred Fist? If not then I agree with the above poster, the monk level won't do much for you.

Seriously Ur Priest this is your suggestion? Really?

You weren't motivated at all to say you should have went Ur Priest?

[Urpriest]

Seriously Ur Priest this is your suggestion? Really?

You weren't motivated at all to say you should have went Ur Priest?

As delicious as it might be, that would make all those cleric levels a waste unless he went Defiant, which would be hilarious.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

DMM: Persist is important for Divine Power and Righteous Might, which suddenly turns you into a better beatstick than... well... honestly, probably not better than a Crusader, but pretty close. Don't forget that the size boost also gives you a reach advantage.

Pick up A (as in a single) nightstick for +4 turn attempts. That should give you enough to do it. If not, then pick up Extra Turning as well.

As another option, DMM: Chain Spell is fun. Chain + GMW = everyone has fun weapons. If you can get a Bead of Karma, you can really boost your morning buff routine.

[Urpriest]

I'd skip Divine Power on this character, actually. You're in a full BAB prestige class for the next ten levels or so, there will only be a couple levels where making up the BAB will be useful.

Edit: Also, Luminous Armor is a sign that you're a good aligned prepared caster, not that you're a healbot. The monsters can tell that if you're casting any spells at all most likely. Unless you're using stealth skills there's no downside to having Luminous Armor up besides the resources expended to do so. It won't make monsters go for you, if the DM makes his monsters' decisions on RP rather than tactics the spell's fluff makes it unpleasant to attack you because you're so bright, and if your DM has monsters fight tactically it won't matter what you look like.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'd skip Divine Power on this character, actually. You're in a full BAB prestige class for the next ten levels or so, there will only be a couple levels where making up the BAB will be useful.What, Sacred Fist? Ugh, well since he's already gone ahead and dipped Monk, it's not the worst option ever, but lose two spell levels AND no meaningful class abilities?


Edit: Also, Luminous Armor is a sign that you're a good aligned prepared caster, not that you're a healbot. The monsters can tell that if you're casting any spells at all most likely. Unless you're using stealth skills there's no downside to having Luminous Armor up besides the resources expended to do so. It won't make monsters go for you, if the DM makes his monsters' decisions on RP rather than tactics the spell's fluff makes it unpleasant to attack you because you're so bright, and if your DM has monsters fight tactically it won't matter what you look like.

Furthermore, let them try and target you. Depending on your loadout, you could be better equipped to take a blow than just about anyone else, other than maybe the Crusader. And if they try and target you with blastomancy... hey lookie, Resist Energy is a 2nd level spell!

[Urpriest]

What, Sacred Fist? Ugh, well since he's already gone ahead and dipped Monk, it's not the worst option ever, but lose two spell levels AND no meaningful class abilities?


Text vs. Table. Full-casting Full-BAB is something of a gold standard even if it doesn't really give anything beyond that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Text vs. Table. Full-casting Full-BAB is something of a gold standard even if it doesn't really give anything beyond that.

For fear of starting another 'text vs table' debate and bringing in the multicolored thread-rickroll, I shall merely state that it's up to his GM, who may well favor Table over Text on the grounds of 'game balance'. Particularly if the rest of the group is sub-optimal, and he's... well... demonstrating a fraction of the power available to the Cleric class.

By RAW, Text > Table is established. However, if he starts being as powerful, compared to the rest of the group, as I think he's going to be... his GM could use the table as an effort to swing a nerf-bat at him.

[Major_Muffin]

I see nobody else has thought of this, so im gonna post it.

Start your cleric down the path of evil if thats ok with the DM and the rest of the party. You can blame this on your cleric being corrupted by the power of necromancy.

This is so that you can get command undead, this allows you to control a total HD of undead equal to your lvl.

Then you cast animate undead, which allows you to animate and control a number of undead HD = to 4 times your lvl (this stacks with the command undead)

Now you can control a number of undead HD = to 5 times your lvl

Start taking some inflict spells (which both hurt your enemies and heal your undead) and some spells that do damage. Also, at 9th lvl you can cast inflict mass, which will damage your enemies and heal your undead at the same time and at 11th lvl you can cast bulls strength mass on your undead.

I would advise the extra turning feat for this build (and a nightstick, which Ive never actually heard of until now, but a +4 on command attempts would be very good)

[skywalker]

It's not worth it to lose a level of spellcasting forever when you could wait a few levels and pick up the Monk's Belt.

This is true wisdom. Honestly the text is unclear and I wasn't sure the monk's belt granted WIS to AC. I still think it could be worded a lot better.

Regardless, I'm sort of in a position of dancing with the girl I brung now.


You could get a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC) for 1,000 gp, which should give +2 turning attempts, and cast Eagle's Splendor when you're buffing for another +2 turning attempts. If you can use flaws, Extra Turning would be good. You can also use Invisible Spell (Cityscape) with Luminous Armor if you want to spend a feat on that.

Good idea. I can probably trade the bracers out for the Holy Symbol.


A Runestaff with just Rope Trick in it, usable only 1/day, will cost 800 gp.

What are you suggesting? She borrowed 500 GP from my cleric to finance a personal oasis, so if you're suggesting we sleep in the rope trick, I think it's a no-go. I'm the biggest advocate of rope trick for sleeping that you'll find in this state, but what can you do?


As a level 5 cleric with the travel domain, you get fly as a domain skill. Why do you still need climbing, again?

Oh, for those times when I need to cast Haste on the party as BF suggested, or for those times when I need to climb two things in one day.


DMM: Persist is important for Divine Power and Righteous Might, which suddenly turns you into a better beatstick than... well... honestly, probably not better than a Crusader, but pretty close. Don't forget that the size boost also gives you a reach advantage.

I don't want to be as good a beatstick as the Crusader. I've done the "large sized cleric with a 30 AC waving around a spiked chain" thing before. What I really want to do, is this:



For fear of starting another 'text vs table' debate and bringing in the multicolored thread-rickroll, I shall merely state that it's up to his GM, who may well favor Table over Text on the grounds of 'game balance'. Particularly if the rest of the group is sub-optimal, and he's... well... demonstrating a fraction of the power available to the Cleric class.

By RAW, Text > Table is established. However, if he starts being as powerful, compared to the rest of the group, as I think he's going to be... his GM could use the table as an effort to swing a nerf-bat at him.

I want to show a fraction of the class's power. In a party consisting of a Crusader, a PHB rogue, a blasty sorcerer and a 3-class ToB multiclass horror, I want to show a fraction of power. I think Sacred Fist does that nicely. I'd like to do it in a unique way, and not be generic divine caster tin-man #eleventy-billion. I'm tired of being called the "min-maximus" of the group, and while I don't want to purposefully sandbag, I would say I'd like to actively avoid standing out. Fulfilling healing and doing a few neat things is what I'm after.


Edit: Also, Luminous Armor is a sign that you're a good aligned prepared caster, not that you're a healbot. The monsters can tell that if you're casting any spells at all most likely. Unless you're using stealth skills there's no downside to having Luminous Armor up besides the resources expended to do so. It won't make monsters go for you, if the DM makes his monsters' decisions on RP rather than tactics the spell's fluff makes it unpleasant to attack you because you're so bright, and if your DM has monsters fight tactically it won't matter what you look like.

I did say "shoot me, I'm the healbot." There's no penalty for attacking luminous armor at range, after all.

I like this luminous armor idea, though. I think I will ask my DM how he feels about the possibility of giving the entire party Fast Healing 1 for the entire day, since he can have weird ideas about what is and is not broken. If he thinks it isn't broken, then that is the direction I will head. If he does, then I will angle more towards the Sacred Fist, since the two seem to be leading opposite directions.

[Urpriest]

I like this luminous armor idea, though. I think I will ask my DM how he feels about the possibility of giving the entire party Fast Healing 1 for the entire day, since he can have weird ideas about what is and is not broken. If he thinks it isn't broken, then that is the direction I will head. If he does, then I will angle more towards the Sacred Fist, since the two seem to be leading opposite directions.

They're not really opposite directions. Both are going to involve DMM Persist, since you took Persistent Spell and you don't want to waste the feat for the next 10-odd levels. As such, both will probably involve getting a Reliquary Holy Symbol, and/or Nightsticks if you get lucky and get a pile of cash. Beyond that, it's just a matter of what to persist. Since you're probably only getting one thing (with the reliquary and/or Eagle's Splendor and sans Nightsticks), Mass Lesser Vigor if your DM's cool with the healing or some melee buff if he isn't. And since you're Tier 1, you can change that every day.

Come to think of it, sans a pile of Nightsticks or some feats (both of which will come further down the line if at all) you'll only be able to DMM one thing anyway, so you might as well just use Eagle's Splendor unless you're really low on 2nds. Eagle's Splendor+your native turning pool will give you one Persistent Spell.

[hex0]

If you are going to lose a caster level as a cleric, I'd suggest 3 levels of Prestige Paladin over 1 level of Monk any day of the week.

[skywalker]

They're not really opposite directions. Both are going to involve DMM Persist, since you took Persistent Spell and you don't want to waste the feat for the next 10-odd levels. As such, both will probably involve getting a Reliquary Holy Symbol, and/or Nightsticks if you get lucky and get a pile of cash. Beyond that, it's just a matter of what to persist. Since you're probably only getting one thing (with the reliquary and/or Eagle's Splendor and sans Nightsticks), Mass Lesser Vigor if your DM's cool with the healing or some melee buff if he isn't. And since you're Tier 1, you can change that every day.

I need two feats for Sacred Fist that I do not currently have: Combat Casting and Combat Reflexes. I think that's going to necessitate a flaw for CC and a second monk level for Reflexes. If I take DMM at level 6, then monk 2 at level 7, I can be into Sacred Fist at level 8, as opposed to the level 10 I'm going to be getting Sacred Fist at if I wait around to get the feats naturally.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I need two feats for Sacred Fist that I do not currently have: Combat Casting and Combat Reflexes. I think that's going to necessitate a flaw for CC and a second monk level for Reflexes. If I take DMM at level 6, then monk 2 at level 7, I can be into Sacred Fist at level 8, as opposed to the level 10 I'm going to be getting Sacred Fist at if I wait around to get the feats naturally.

Once you leave the path of monk, you can't go back. Multiclassing restrictions on monk sucks.


Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.

[skywalker]

Once you leave the path of monk, you can't go back. Multiclassing restrictions on monk sucks.

That restriction = waived. It is a second level of monk, after all.

[Major_Muffin]

Did you see my post on necromancy?

[skywalker]

Did you see my post on necromancy?

As the others have said, my character is good-aligned to the point that I'm taking Exalted feats. Necromancy doesn't really fit with the character concept or the party make-up. Doesn't really interest me much either. Not that I don't love a good "Arise, my minions!" Just that this guy is much less "Army of Darkness" and much more "Kung Fu." (David Carradine)

EDIT: Can anyone think of some not-too-painful flaws I might grab? If I can get one more feat (already traded the -2 penalty to ranged attacks for 1 bonus feat) then Sacred Fist becomes available at 7th level instead of 8th, and without that pesky second level of monk.

[Greenish]

Vulnerable is the one you take after shaky.

[Garwain]

You can persist your spiritual weapon as well. Hilarious!

[skywalker]

Vulnerable is the one you take after shaky.

Ooh, but Frail (lose an HP a level) looks so good since our DM gave us max HP at each level. (So right now with a 0 CON mod I've got 40 HP)


You can persist your spiritual weapon as well. Hilarious!

Divine Retribution is kinda like that. I think it lasts for an hour/level, spiritual weapon that just chills next to the caster and whacks anyone who attacks him/her. Pretty neat.

[Saintheart]

One point, guys: without blowing the entire module, Red Hand of Doom is only meant to last from about level 5-11 or so. (Nothing terrible in that, it's right there on the cover.) Also, RHOD won't give you much time or opportunity to craft or buy high-powered stuff -- if your DM runs RHOD in a very orthodox manner, the various settlements of RHOD have upper gp limits that do nerf your spending options for strong stuff.

In terms of undead, you do encounter them in one part of the campaign, but it's only one small part of the campaign -- not enough to build your entire character around fighting them and only them. (By contrast, if you're a Dread Necromancer, you can have a lot of fun with the module).