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Spacewolf
2012-01-20, 01:06 PM
He seems intent on killing Xykon but what happens if Xykon is killed as far as i can see theres no way he can pass the bar that they set when they where judging roy i mean they nearly knocked Roy over to NG heaven for emplying chaotic means. His father has dodged his reponsibilitys, and employed possibly evil means to decive roy as to the extent of Vs fall

hamishspence
2012-01-20, 01:09 PM
It's debated a bit.

Some say that in order to be consistant, he must have gone through the same process Roy did, to "get everything else out of the way so that when the Oath's cleared up, he's ready".

Others suggest that the judging process may have been aborted only part way in, when the Blood Oath came up- so we don't know what the result would have been.

bluewurm
2012-01-20, 01:23 PM
using the spoiler tag because i cant remember what info is from SOD

Who said that Eugene's alignment is LG to begin with? I would have pegged him as Neutral Good, maybe even True Neutral (he certainly has no regard for lawfulness but I'm not sure he's chaotic), as far as good/evil he prefers good over evil but is more interested in himself...
his quest to kill Xykon arose not out of a desire to save the world or even just to kill an evil lich, it arose out of a need for personal revenge.

Ancalagon
2012-01-20, 01:24 PM
It's debated a bit.

Actually, it has been debated a lot. ;)

Dr.Epic
2012-01-20, 01:26 PM
He seems intent on killing Xykon but what happens if Xykon is killed as far as i can see theres no way he can pass the bar that they set when they where judging roy i mean they nearly knocked Roy over to NG heaven for emplying chaotic means. His father has dodged his reponsibilitys, and employed possibly evil means to decive roy as to the extent of Vs fall

If Roy can get in after...

-abandoning his teammate to an uncertain fate in the hands of hostile foes

-after betraying his entire party (who have stuck by him on quests that only benefit Roy) for some strange woman he just met and was only physically attracted to

...I'm sure Eugene can get in. Remember, we've seen very little of the guy's life. He may have spent a good portion of it doing good.

Spacewolf
2012-01-20, 01:28 PM
using the spoiler tag because i cant remember what info is from SOD

Who said that Eugene's alignment is LG to begin with? I would have pegged him as Neutral Good, maybe even True Neutral (he certainly has no regard for lawfulness but I'm not sure he's chaotic), as far as good/evil he prefers good over evil but is more interested in himself...
his quest to kill Xykon arose not out of a desire to save the world or even just to kill an evil lich, it arose out of a need for personal revenge.

i presumed from his knowlege of how the LG Angels judge and their knowlage of him that he had gone for that alignment, as well as how LG people of different faiths get judged away from each other the same would be expected to happen to different alignments

Ancalagon
2012-01-20, 02:15 PM
...I'm sure Eugene can get in. Remember, we've seen very little of the guy's life. He may have spent a good portion of it doing good.

Correct. But what we have seen is not really speaking for him. Yes, he has a stick up his ass, but does that make him lawful enough? And he clearly has been shown to be possibly be more neutral than good.

But let's not get into another "The Alignment of Eugene Greenhilt and can he get into the LG afterlife" debate. But we should still hold, no matter what one might believe, that it is far from safe (in either direction). We can only rule out chaos and very probably evil... the remaining combinations are all still possible.

DaveMcW
2012-01-20, 06:45 PM
Eugene's judgement scene is in Origin of the PCs.

Kish
2012-01-20, 07:16 PM
*looks at the thread title*

Lots of people have judged Roy's father, yes.

Steward
2012-01-20, 09:41 PM
If Roy can get in after...

-abandoning his teammate to an uncertain fate in the hands of hostile foes

-after betraying his entire party (who have stuck by him on quests that only benefit Roy) for some strange woman he just met and was only physically attracted to

...I'm sure Eugene can get in. Remember, we've seen very little of the guy's life. He may have spent a good portion of it doing good.

I thought the thing was that Roy managed to atone for his mistakes before he died, while Eugene never got the chance. I personally think he deserves redemption -- he's a huge jerk to his son but I don't think he deserves to be trapped in limbo for all eternity, but he just has to figure out some way to get past whatever is keeping him (psychologically speaking) from entering paradise.

Belril Duskwalk
2012-01-20, 10:01 PM
I thought the thing was that Roy managed to atone for his mistakes before he died, while Eugene never got the chance. I personally think he deserves redemption -- he's a huge jerk to his son but I don't think he deserves to be trapped in limbo for all eternity, but he just has to figure out some way to get past whatever is keeping him (psychologically speaking) from entering paradise.

Comic 491 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html)

I thought the Deva who judged Roy was relatively clear that the thing keeping Eugene from entering paradise was his Blood Oath. More specifically, the fact that he gave up on fulfilling the Oath long before he died.

Steward
2012-01-20, 11:13 PM
Comic 491 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html)

I thought the Deva who judged Roy was relatively clear that the thing keeping Eugene from entering paradise was his Blood Oath. More specifically, the fact that he gave up on fulfilling the Oath long before he died.

Thanks! I forgot about that conversation. That does seem to imply that the only barrier still keeping Eugene out of paradise is the Blood Oath, rather than the way he treated his son specifically (although that's why he was kept out in the first place).

If I understand it correctly, if Eugene had made that one last attempt, he would have entered paradise. But since he didn't, he's trapped on the cloud, until Roy, Julia, or one of their children fulfills the oath (I hope for his sake that someone else doesn't deal the final blow to Xykon!) He doesn't have to atone or make any changes to the way he thinks -- all of that is acceptable, if not desirable.

Thanks for clearing it up!

AutomatedTeller
2012-01-20, 11:35 PM
I'm guessing that if someone else kills Xykon, he'll be able to go up. I doubt very much that beings of pure law and good would hold it against him on a technicality, if he qualified in general ways.

FujinAkari
2012-01-21, 01:45 AM
Probably he has been judged, yes. Beings of Pure Law and Good do tend to be pretty big on consistency, so since we saw Roy judged before the oath was fulfilled, it is only logical that Eugene was too. Not to mention that Eugene seems very certain that the oath is the only thing keeping him out of the afterlife, and since he saw Roy judged, and we know him to be exceedingly intelligent, it is a bit too much a stretch to assume he wouldn't notice not having ever been judged himself :P

However, that isn't the big question. The big question is whether Eugene needs to be judged -again-. He hasn't just been sitting around and waiting, he's been assaulting beings of pure law and good, assisting in rigging a trial, and lying to celestial entities. These are actions most assuredly NOT in his initial judgement, and so there is a good chance he needs to repeat the process.


I'm guessing that if someone else kills Xykon, he'll be able to go up. I doubt very much that beings of pure law and good would hold it against him on a technicality, if he qualified in general ways.

That is another point of contention. Is Eugene being kept out of the LG afterlife because he failed to uphold a blood oath, or is the magic of the Blood Oath ("I will not rest until I have wrought terrible vengeance upon...") keeping him from -any- afterlife.

This may not be something the Deva has any say over, it may be that the blood oath itself prevents him from going into Celestia (or anywhere else) and, if so, then if someone else destroys Xykon, then he'll be stuck outside for all eternity...

Joerg
2012-01-21, 02:57 AM
The big question is whether Eugene needs to be judged -again-. He hasn't just been sitting around and waiting, he's been assaulting beings of pure law and good, assisting in rigging a trial, and lying to celestial entities. These are actions most assuredly NOT in his initial judgement, and so there is a good chance he needs to repeat the process.

Indeed.



That is another point of contention. Is Eugene being kept out of the LG afterlife because he failed to uphold a blood oath, or is the magic of the Blood Oath ("I will not rest until I have wrought terrible vengeance upon...") keeping him from -any- afterlife.

I've always assumed it's the magic itself. If it was just a question of Eugene's actions -- or, in other words, his alignment -- he wouldn't be kept outside Celistia, but sent to another afterlife.

Or is it meant as a punishment? "We sentence you to cloud rest for X years, then you can enter paradise"?

KoboldRevenge
2012-01-21, 03:15 AM
The big question is whether Eugene needs to be judged -again-. He hasn't just been sitting around and waiting, he's been assaulting beings of pure law and good, assisting in rigging a trial, and lying to celestial entities. These are actions most assuredly NOT in his initial judgement, and so there is a good chance he needs to repeat the process.

Can gods and paragons see all in their realms, as well as in the mortals? It might be a foolish question but I just though they might not have seen those actions for some reason. :\ (Also he burned the folder with the details of the elf's alarming deals with the forces of Evil here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html).)

JoseB
2012-01-21, 08:57 AM
Or is it meant as a punishment? "We sentence you to cloud rest for X years, then you can enter paradise"?

A bit like Purgatory, then? Maybe the "higher ups" hope that X time in fluffy cloud limbo will make Eugene realize the defects he has/had, so he can make an effort to get rid of them (or at least acknowledge that he has them), thus becoming "enlightened" enough to enter Celestia...

Perhaps?

Manga Shoggoth
2012-01-21, 10:13 AM
A bit like Purgatory, then? Maybe the "higher ups" hope that X time in fluffy cloud limbo will make Eugene realize the defects he has/had, so he can make an effort to get rid of them (or at least acknowledge that he has them), thus becoming "enlightened" enough to enter Celestia...

Perhaps?

I had the distinct sense that the Blood Oath blocks Eugene from the afterlife d'jour because he was the person who swore it. The fact that he abandoned the oath and dumped it on his children probably isn't helping much.

Roy, on the other hand, gets a pass in because:

He didn't swear the oath himself (how much he is bound by it is up for debate).
He was in the process of trying to fulfill the oath when he died.


The comments by Roy's Deva are simply trying to make a point to Eugene, one that she thinks his son has already learned

Jay R
2012-01-21, 10:35 AM
The big question is whether Eugene needs to be judged -again-.

Unnecessary. On the subject of Eugene going to Hell, Roy's Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) said, "I think we are technically past the point where that would be a realistic possibility."

Kish
2012-01-21, 10:44 AM
That doesn't guarantee he'd go to Celestia, just that he's unlikely to go to a Lower Plane. If--if--we treat Roy's Archon as authoritative there, it narrows the field of potential afterlives for Eugene from seventeen to somewhere from ten to twelve. Not to one.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-21, 11:08 AM
It's possible Eugene got a passing score in his initial credit check, and he's counting on them not running another judgment after all his various chaotic and evil-ish actions as a spirit. On the other hand, Eugene probably doesn't care what afterlife he gets into at this point, as long as he gets to move on.

I'm going to laugh pretty hard if he gets re-judged at the end of the comic as Neutral and gets reincarnated instead.

FujinAkari
2012-01-21, 11:48 AM
The comments by Roy's Deva are simply trying to make a point to Eugene, one that she thinks his son has already learned

I've said this in similar arguments, but if your contention is that a being of Pure Law and Good lied to Roy about the status of his Oath then your argument is pretty darn weak :P

Lies aren't something that the Deva can tell.

Psyren
2012-01-21, 02:34 PM
I doubt he'll go to hell (or hades/abyss) but I also doubt he'll get into Celestia. His promise to Roy, as well as his other actions (impersonating a celestial, burning V's file), and above all his general attitude just don't speak of LG to me. It wouldn't be much of a message if you could "pass the exam" so to speak, then promptly throw all that morality/ethics out the window and still achieve the highest reward of your alignment.

Joerg
2012-01-21, 03:50 PM
I just noted that in Start or Darkness:


In the epilogue is a scene where Eugene is judged. The judgement goes quite well, but isn't completed because of the oath. Eugene isn't kept on the cloud as a punishment, the oath actually prevents him entering the afterlife.

FujinAkari
2012-01-21, 03:55 PM
I just noted that in Start or Darkness:


In the epilogue is a scene where Eugene is judged. The judgement goes quite well, but isn't completed because of the oath. Eugene isn't kept on the cloud as a punishment, the oath actually prevents him entering the afterlife.


This is incorrect. We only see one panel of the judgement, we have absolutely no idea if it was the beginning, the end, somewhere in the middle, and we see absolutely none of the judgement except for that panel. So saying "it goes quite well" seems a stretch :P

Though, if nothing else, it does prove that Eugene did at least meet with the Deva.


It wouldn't be much of a message if you could "pass the exam" so to speak, then promptly throw all that morality/ethics out the window and still achieve the highest reward of your alignment.

How is Celestia "the highest reward of your alignment"? It is the afterlife that matches your alignment. It is sort of the natural result of dying... going to an afterlife. Celestia isn't a reward, it is the place that LG people go. Sort of like how a W-2 isn't the highest reward of employment, it is just something that happens to everyone who is employed.

blazingshadow
2012-01-21, 04:46 PM
Sort of like how a W-2 isn't the highest reward of employment, it is just something that happens to everyone who is employed.but it is still a reward

FujinAkari
2012-01-21, 05:34 PM
but it is still a reward

I don't consider paying taxes a reward...

blazingshadow
2012-01-21, 08:18 PM
keeping your country running should count as a reward.

in any case i should have clarified that going to celestia does count as a reward. just because it happens doesn't disqualify it as a reward

FujinAkari
2012-01-21, 08:20 PM
in any case i should have clarified that going to celestia does count as a reward. just because it happens doesn't disqualify it as a reward

See? No. Taking a Breathe of Air isn't a reward, it is something that everyone does. Going to your afterlife isn't a reward anymore than getting to sleep at night. Those are things which everyone does, they are part of the natural cycle.

blazingshadow
2012-01-21, 08:27 PM
keeping your alignment lawful good because you believe in that ethical and moral philosophy is not the same as breathing. breathing is hardly a test of character

Kish
2012-01-21, 08:38 PM
I believe what FujinAkari is saying is that everyone goes to one of the seventeen afterlives. And while "succeeding in being Lawful Good" is one way to look at the significance of going to Celestia, it's equally valid to call it "Failing to be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, etc."

OrzhvoPatriarch
2012-01-21, 08:43 PM
I would say that he would have to be rejudged for the actions he has done since his death before he gets in. This makes his first judgement, regardless of how far it went or what conclusion it reached, have little meaning. I think unless Eugene does some repenting he might be in some trouble when Xykon is defeated.

Unless of course the snarl destroys all creation as a result of the final battle, in which case it's a moot point.

FujinAkari
2012-01-22, 01:25 AM
I believe what FujinAkari is saying is that everyone goes to one of the seventeen afterlives. And while "succeeding in being Lawful Good" is one way to look at the significance of going to Celestia, it's equally valid to call it "Failing to be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, etc."

Thank you Kish :)

Yes... there is a popular misconception that Celestia is the 'best' afterlife because LG is the hardest alignment, but that isn't what D&D is. Alignments aren't straightjackets, they are merely the way the character looks at the world. You're LG? You go to Celestia, and you'll be happy. You're CG? You go to Arboria, and you're happy. CE? Go to The Abyss, and be happy.

The afterlife is neither reward or punishment, it is merely a place where you spend your eternity which is consistent with your worldview. The Deva's job isn't to see who "gets" to go to Celestia, but to deturmine whether someone has lived a Lawful Good life. If not, being sent to a different afterlife isn't a punishment, but a recognition of the fact that they don't -want- to spend eternity in a place where you have to stand in an orderly queue everywhere you go and you are expected to be a little ashamed of having one night stands.

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-22, 01:50 AM
For whatever it's worth, Roy calls the afterlife an elaborate system of rewards and punishments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html).

I think for people like Roy--people who have a specific plane they want to get into yet could have easily slipped up and ended up two alignments away from their goal--the afterlife is either a reward or punishment. It doesn't have to be Celestia to be a reward, though. For someone who tried to maintain perfect balance in their life, the Outlands (TN) would be a reward.

Then you have people like Xykon, Elan's family, etc. For them, the afterlife really is like breathing. They go where they belong and they never imagine it any other way.

Joerg
2012-01-22, 05:05 AM
This is incorrect. We only see one panel of the judgement, we have absolutely no idea if it was the beginning, the end, somewhere in the middle, and we see absolutely none of the judgement except for that panel. So saying "it goes quite well" seems a stretch :P

Though, if nothing else, it does prove that Eugene did at least meet with the Deva.



This is incorrect :smallwink:. We see several panels of the judgement, and the deva says "I don't see anything too serious here", which I certainly interpret as "it goes quite well". Also, Eugene isn't judged by "the" deva, it is clearly a different one.

hamishspence
2012-01-22, 07:33 AM
Then you have people like Xykon, Elan's family, etc. For them, the afterlife really is like breathing. They go where they belong and they never imagine it any other way.

Xykon's "Anything to avoid the Big Fire Down Below" speech here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

would suggest otherwise.

Also:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html

it's hard to believe that being "snipped every morning" is intended to be seen as a reward, here.

Chobarth
2012-01-22, 09:21 AM
I think Roy's father already knows he isn't slated for the LG afterlife. The sheer speed that he agreed to Roy's request to never see his mom again. I thought it was fishy at the time, and still do - I think the prick was secretly amused by that request. On the other hand, Eugene does reference getting onto the mountain himself in the same comic:

OOTS episode 500

Voidfaith
2012-01-22, 10:30 AM
Well, both him and his ex-wife have moved on to new partners. It makes it easier to not see ach other again.

Still, Roy's father seems more to be true neutral, like his daughter.

lord_khaine
2012-01-22, 11:44 AM
As i recall, it has directly been stated somewhere along the way, that your actions after your dead has minimal effect on your final destination.

Eugene has has a lifetime's worth of LG behavior, and with the power of a wizard he has been able to leave quite a impact on the world, meaning his actions on the cloud wont chance his destination.

Kish
2012-01-22, 12:09 PM
As i recall, it has directly been stated somewhere along the way, that your actions after your dead has minimal effect on your final destination.
Telephone Game and you don't even know who said the statement you're remembering? Sorry, but I'm not playing.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2012-01-22, 01:01 PM
On regards to the afterlife topic: This is fully dependent on the setting, not on the rules of Dnd. In Forgotten Realms, for example, the afterlife is very much a reward or punishment. If you served your god well you are rewarded. If you served no god you get to be put into a wall of souls until you slowly fade into nothingness, regardless of your actions in life. If you served your god poorly, well that largely depends on the god in question.

In the Oots universe, we have clear proof that the Good afterlives are pleasant http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html and we have some evidence that the Evil ones are not, with Xykon saying that people should do anything to avoid the Big Fires Below http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html being in a giant inferno would be considered torment by most people.

I do not see it as being "just like breathing" or some kind of automatic process. It looks like judgement needs to occur and actions need to be taken by a bureaucracy before you get where your going. True, this might only be for the lawful folks and chaotic people might have a different process, but I would think they would have to go though some kind of judgement process, even if it isn't an interview.

FujinAkari
2012-01-22, 02:38 PM
and we have some evidence that the Evil ones are not, with Xykon saying that people should do anything to avoid the Big Fires Below http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html being in a giant inferno would be considered torment by most people.

You're citing Xykon as an expert on Theology? Really?

We also have seen the "Fires Below" first hand and Sabine certainly doesn't seem overly tortured, none of the soul spliced souls seemed particularly tormented, and Rich himself expressed regret over not having a "Belkar goes to hell and runs amok" storyline.

So no, a plane of suffering and torment does not seem supported.

OrzhvoPatriarch
2012-01-22, 03:06 PM
You're citing Xykon as an expert on Theology? Really?

We also have seen the "Fires Below" first hand and Sabine certainly doesn't seem overly tortured, none of the soul spliced souls seemed particularly tormented, and Rich himself expressed regret over not having a "Belkar goes to hell and runs amok" storyline.

So no, a plane of suffering and torment does not seem supported.

I am citing Xykon as the only person to make any kind of quote about the desirability of going to hell or the abyss in the entire comic. The question that has to be asked is "why would Rich have Xykon say that if the opposite is actually true?" It would serve no purpose other then confusing the readers.

There is no evidence for your opinion that Hell is fun for the people in it. If you would like a second example of bad things happening to sinners, we have this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html the pedophiles are snipped, or in other words castrated, every morning. This would not be something that a person sent to the lower plains for sexual crimes would enjoy. You also have the soul splices, when Haerta escapes, she cries "Freedom!" and seems to have no intention of willingly going back to Hell, it seems it is not enjoyable for her. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html

On the subject of Sabine, she is a fiend, not a mortal soul. So she is not really an example at all of what the lower planes are like for those sent there after death.

I think I'm going to go ahead and give my claim here so there is no mistake about what I am saying. My claim is "The Evil afterlives are unpleasant for the people who go to them after death, unless they are the devout worshipers of an evil God who brings them into their own personal domain." We have see that the worshipers of the Dark One have an afterlife they consider pleasant, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html but we have seen no such things for the unfaithful Evil dead (sounds like a death metal band name right there). The evidence I have listed above seems to support this, rather then the claim that the afterlife is pleasant for everyone.

FujinAkari
2012-01-22, 05:49 PM
Interesting theory... but not one I inherently agree with. Why would Xykon not want to go to the fires below? Well duh, he likes being in charge, and there are stronger entities than him down there, so of course he prefers to stay alive where he gets to call the shots. That isn't the same as calling it a plane of torture. This is the same mentality of Haertia, and why she prefers not to go back. It has nothing to do with being systematically abused in Hell, but has to do with being trapped there. She's a plane-jumper, so not being able to roam free has to be annoying for her.

We have Word of God that Belkar's stay in hell, if it were to occur, would -not- be one of penance and retribution, he would run around slaughtering things and would, in general, have a blast.

As to the pedophiles... while I agree that they do not enjoy their afterlife, I think that is largely a case of the alignment not matching the archtype. Evil characters are known for might makes right, and those who enjoy combat and domination are right at home in the Lower Planes and doubtless enjoy the daily slaughter. Pedo's? Not so much, they hate conflict with competent opponents, and so in such a situation they would become the meat of the Lower Plane grinder. I don't think that represents evidence that the abyss / nine hells are meant to punish pedophiles, but merely to show what would naturally occur in such an environment.

I also may be wrong about this... but aren't Succubi (and just about all demons) just mortal souls who have been in the abyss / nine hells long enough to evolve?

Souhiro
2012-01-22, 06:27 PM
As I can see, The Dark One, as well as RedCloak, can be called "Chaotic Evil".

I mean: Conjuration: They're going only to SUMMON!! They only wants to destroy everything?
That isn't lawful anymore. Those are just the most moronic, auto-destructive and stupidest plan ever!

Redcloak, or whatever is its true name, is a cleric, it knows that trere is a soul and an afterlife; it's not a believe nor an act of faith, but a fact: The way you live your life decides how will you life your days in the eternity.

But this green abomination plans to just destroy everything: Gods, devils, and every soul in this world and the other! Think about it, it's lique equiping your firefighters with fire extinguers that shoot C4! {{scrubbed}} It's... wrong.

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-22, 06:35 PM
As I can see, The Dark One, as well as RedCloak, can be called "Chaotic Evil".

I mean: Conjuration: They're going only to SUMMON!! They only wants to destroy everything?Not sure how that is related to this thread, but no. The Giant explained the ritual here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686931&postcount=83).

OrzhvoPatriarch
2012-01-22, 09:31 PM
Interesting theory... but not one I inherently agree with. Why would Xykon not want to go to the fires below? Well duh, he likes being in charge, and there are stronger entities than him down there, so of course he prefers to stay alive where he gets to call the shots. That isn't the same as calling it a plane of torture. This is the same mentality of Haertia, and why she prefers not to go back. It has nothing to do with being systematically abused in Hell, but has to do with being trapped there. She's a plane-jumper, so not being able to roam free has to be annoying for her.

We have Word of God that Belkar's stay in hell, if it were to occur, would -not- be one of penance and retribution, he would run around slaughtering things and would, in general, have a blast.

As to the pedophiles... while I agree that they do not enjoy their afterlife, I think that is largely a case of the alignment not matching the archtype. Evil characters are known for might makes right, and those who enjoy combat and domination are right at home in the Lower Planes and doubtless enjoy the daily slaughter. Pedo's? Not so much, they hate conflict with competent opponents, and so in such a situation they would become the meat of the Lower Plane grinder. I don't think that represents evidence that the abyss / nine hells are meant to punish pedophiles, but merely to show what would naturally occur in such an environment.

I also may be wrong about this... but aren't Succubi (and just about all demons) just mortal souls who have been in the abyss / nine hells long enough to evolve?

Could you link the quote from the Giant that Belkar would enjoy being in Hell?

Now, as for the lower planes being designed to punish people, there are two ways to look at the question. The first is "Are they meant to punish people in standard dnd?" This is the least important of the two questions and the most simple to answer: most defiantly. The Book of Vile Darkness and other books that deal with fiends and the lower planes go into some detail on the torture that happens in them, and flat out say things like ďthese are the planes damned souls go to face eternal torment.Ē The Dungeon Masterís Guide, to use one of the three core books, takes pains to outline how awesome the upper plans are, and how terrible the lower ones are. The second, more important question is "Do the Lower planes in the Oots universe punish the people who go into them?" I have to say the answer here is also yes. I say this because I have seen no real evidence to the contrary. I also say this because I have seen at the very least one group of sinners being punished not by their fellow damned souls, but by the management, because we have Xykon saying being a brain in a jar is better than going to hell, because we have seen one of the most powerful evil souls in history, someone who should have the best time of it if Hell wasnít supposed to punish her, try to flee. The concept of the Soul Splice also supports this, as it shows that in Oots as in the standard setting fiends use souls as currency and as resources.

The mortal souls turning into fiends thing has no evidence behind it in the
Oots universe, and while I have heard about it on the internet from other people, I canít seem to find mention of it in any source book. Thatís not to say that it isnít there, there are a lot of source books, but that is to say that if it happens it doesnít happen often enough that they felt the need to mention it in the Dungeonís Master Guide or the Monster Manuel. If somebody can name the book that details this that would be great because I kind of like it as an idea, lets you bring back a villain for round two as a demon after he has been killed.

Psyren
2012-01-22, 09:46 PM
How is Celestia "the highest reward of your alignment"? It is the afterlife that matches your alignment. It is sort of the natural result of dying... going to an afterlife. Celestia isn't a reward, it is the place that LG people go. Sort of like how a W-2 isn't the highest reward of employment, it is just something that happens to everyone who is employed.

Let me put it another way, then.

Eugene doesn't seem like Celestia fits him anymore. He has no respect for the archons or devas, had no desire to see his family in the afterlife even before Roy's oath (and certainly has no lingering devotion to his dearly departed wife), and can't even find it in himself to be happy for his son who DID get into heaven. Do you think he would be happy there now, even if he was LG in life?

Worse, memory of your time on the cloud stays with you even past the gates. Even if the celestials forgive him for all of the above, can he forgive himself?

Belril Duskwalk
2012-01-22, 09:48 PM
I mean: Conjuration: They're going only to SUMMON!! They only wants to destroy everything?
That isn't lawful anymore. Those are just the most moronic, auto-destructive and stupidest plan ever!

Redcloak, or whatever is its true name, is a cleric, it knows that trere is a soul and an afterlife; it's not a believe nor an act of faith, but a fact: The way you live your life decides how will you life your days in the eternity.

But this green abomination plans to just destroy everything: Gods, devils, and every soul in this world and the other! Think about it, it's lique equiping your firefighters with fire extinguers that shoot C4! Like using homo poetry to try to raise some spirits. It's... wrong.

Start of Darkness spoilers:
Not Conjuration [Summoning]. Conjuration [Teleportation], more specifically plane shifting it. Plane Shifting it where you ask? Wherever The Dark One wants it. Like say, Thor's throne-room after Thor refuses to bow to The Dark One's wishes.

Also, while there is a chance of destroying everything, that's not the goal, that's just a potential result of failure.