[PF] Barbarian- DR or Dodge?

[CreganTur]

I'm looking to create a backup character for the Pathfinder campaign I'll be starting next week and I've been really looking at Barbarian. We'll be starting at level 5, so I'll build my backup to this level and then level him up if needed when/if my main dies.

I've been looking at the alternative builds in the advanced player's guide and the Invulnerable Rager caught my eye:

2nd level- gain DR/- equal to half your barbarian level (doubled against nonlethal). Replaces Uncanny Dodge, Umproved Uncanny Dodge, and (obviously) standard barbarian DR.

I'm really debating about going this route because never losing your Dex to AC and never being flanked is hard to trade for 5 more points of universal DR.

Anyone have any input to help me decide?

[SleepyShadow]

In this case, I would suggest finding out about more about the campaign you're going to be playing in. If the campaign is geared more toward head on collision styles of combat, then the extra DR is golden. If, however, you are in a more social oriented campaign (or you know your DM has a taste for rogues/ninjas), then uncanny dodge will serve you better.

As a side note, if you want to maximize your DR, there is a self-stacking feat called Roll with the Punches that grants DR 2/- every time you take it, and it stacks with preexisting DR.

Just an old grump's two cp :smallbiggrin:

[Keneth]

There's also Bolster Resilience (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bolstered-resilience) which can be a pretty cool feat if you can get around fatigue.

[CreganTur]

What book is that Roll With the Punches feat from?

[Psyren]

Invulnerable Rager is widely seen as an improvement over the standard Barbarian. Unless you're exclusively fighting rogues, the amount of HP loss that the DR saves you far eclipses what uncanny dodge would save. The elemental resistance, though weaker, would also protect you better than Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense could.

[SleepyShadow]

What book is that Roll With the Punches feat from?

It's from Savage Species.

[Greenish]

It's from Savage Species.It's actually Roll With It. Aside from it being a 3.0 feat from an infamously wonky book, it has the problem of requiring Con 20 and Toughness.

[SleepyShadow]

It's actually Roll With It. Aside from it being a 3.0 feat from an infamously wonky book, it has the problem of requiring Con 20 and Toughness.

I am sorely disappointed in the barbarian who cannot swing a 20 Con by level 8 at the latest. :smallannoyed:

As for the toughness aspect, Azure Toughness is a moderately acceptable alternative that specifically states that it qualifies as Toughness. I've also found that many DMs (myself included) will allow Improved Toughness to qualify as well, since it's rather logical to do so.

[deuxhero]

So you have to be O-Chul AND have a terrible feat to use it?

[DrDeth]

Dm’s get frustrated when they can’t hit, whereas in general they don’t like to kill PCs. Thus, DR.

And, yes, to a certain extent PF is compatible with 3.5 and to a certain extent Savage Species is compatible with 3.5, but that’s REALLY stretching a point. You might as well drag in the Original 3 vol set.

[legomaster00156]

So you have to be O-Chul AND have a terrible feat to use it?
Toughness is much improved in Pathfinder. It is now 3 HP if you have 3 or less HD, and advances with your HD past 3 HD.

[deuxhero]

So just O-Chul in PF?

[DrDeth]

But come on, Toughness in PF is really Improved Toughness in 3.5. Claiming backwards compatibility thru 2 editions is one thing, allowing one good feat to sub in for a pretty cruddy feat (just because the name is the same) as a pre-req is even more of a stretch. I mean, 3.5 Toughness is a feat tax, and we all know it. Getting a benefit without paying that feat tax is cheesy.

[Greenish]

But come on, Toughness in PF is really Improved Toughness in 3.5. Claiming backwards compatibility thru 2 editions is one thing, allowing one good feat to sub in for a pretty cruddy feat (just because the name is the same) as a pre-req is even more of a stretch. I mean, 3.5 Toughness is a feat tax, and we all know it. Getting a benefit without paying that feat tax is cheesy.As usual, the cheese is in the eye of the beholder.

[legomaster00156]

But come on, Toughness in PF is really Improved Toughness in 3.5. Claiming backwards compatibility thru 2 editions is one thing, allowing one good feat to sub in for a pretty cruddy feat (just because the name is the same) as a pre-req is even more of a stretch. I mean, 3.5 Toughness is a feat tax, and we all know it. Getting a benefit without paying that feat tax is cheesy.
Oh no, the player will get an extra 17 HP over the course of his entire adventuring career! This will totally break the game!

[Mystify]

I would take DR over uncanny dodge in a heartbeat. even a little bit of DR can add up to a significant increase in a ability to take a beating, and works wonders on the hoards of smaller things, or anything with a lot of attacks. Does less against the slow, hard hitters, but uncanny dodge is less likely to help you there.

Dr is just a much more consisent bonus. You can frequently go several levels without losing your dex to AC, and there are other counters to sneak attacks. However, you will get hit quite a bit, and the DR will really shine.

[grarrrg]

If you really want Uncanny Dodge, and don't mind dipping and/or spending feats there are 2 PrC's that can help you with minimal disruption of general Barbarian-ness.

(worse option first)
Stalwart Defender (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/stalwart-defender) (don't have to be a Dwarf, don't have to be lawful, still need 3 sub-par feats). Basically a 'defensive' Barbarian. Gains Uncanny Dodge at 3, and Imp. Uncanny at 7.
Note: even though it gains Damage Reduction, it does NOT stack with other classes.
Recommend 3 or 4 levels.

Pain Taster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pain-taster) (must be non-good, need 3 sub-par feats).
d10hd, Full bab.
At level 1 you get +1 attack/damage if you took damage last round. And can perform a routine to get a +2 enhancement bonus to an ability score (it only costs 2000 gold ONCE, or if you switch, but you need to 'meditate' 1 hour/day).
2nd level gives 'Cruelty 1d6', which is fancy Sneak Attack. And DR 1/- this DR DOES stack with other DR (so no 'loss' from not taking Barb).
3rd gives Uncanny Dodge, and bonuses vs. Bleed attacks.
4th (same as level 2)
5th Gives +2 attack/damage if damaged last round, and you can get TWO +2 stat bonuses (or one +4 bonus).

4 levels of Pain Taster will only lose you 2 Rage Powers.
The lost Rage-Rounds can be offset by using the Ritual to gain Con.