Targetteer Awesomeness?

[MaRaKo]

I am playing a Targetteer (Dragon Magazine #310), and I am wondering If the Arrow swarm and Sniper abilities work together and or with the standard ranged feats Rapid shot and Manyshot.

[Greenish]

They work together with each other and Rapid Shot, but not with Manyshot (which is a standard action, not a full attack).

[MaRaKo]

Any other ideas for optimizing targetteer?

[Greenish]

Looked into the Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) yet?

[Winrod]

How do they work together?

Rapid shot, Arrow swarm and sniper shot are all full round actions.

FULL-ROUND ACTIONS
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it
can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does
not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

pg 143 PHB

There is no action that allows you to take multiple full round actions.

[Greenish]

How do they work together?They are both done as a part of a full attack, not as their separate full round actions.

[Winrod]

under the feat section each is described as a full attack action. You can not take multiple full attack actions.

You can not make multiple full attack actions in the same round.

[Greenish]

under the feat section each is described as a full attack action. You can not take multiple full attack actions.Are we talking about the same thing? I mean Targeteer variant (Dragon #310 pg. 39) fighter's Arrow Swarm and Sniper special abilities.

Both of which specify that they're used as a part of a full attack action: "you must be making a full attack to make use of Arrow Swarm" and "when using the full attack option".

[Winrod]

Arrow Swarm – (prerequisite: Rapid Shot) As a Full Round Attack, the Targetteer may make two extra ranged attacks at his/her highest attack
bonus, but all attacks receive a –5 penalty.

Sniper – As a Full Round Attack, the Targetteer may “sacrifice” one shot to
gain +1 critical threat range on a shot in that Full Round Attack. Multiple
attacks may be sacrificed. The bonus is only for one shot & does not “carry
over” from round to round.


Many shot -
As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single
opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with
a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but
see Special).


For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you
may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four
arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the
second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total
penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against
each arrow fired.


Special:
Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply
precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) only once. If
you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical
damage; all others deal regular damage.
A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats
(see page 38).


RAPID SHOT
You can use ranged weapons with exceptional speed.
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normalones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full
attack action (see page 143) to use this feat.

[Alleine]

Arrow Swarm – (prerequisite: Rapid Shot) As a Full Round Attack, the Targetteer may make two extra ranged attacks at his/her highest attack
bonus, but all attacks receive a –5 penalty.

Sniper – As a Full Round Attack, the Targetteer may “sacrifice” one shot to
gain +1 critical threat range on a shot in that Full Round Attack. Multiple
attacks may be sacrificed. The bonus is only for one shot & does not “carry
over” from round to round.

That isn't how the text is printed for those abilities :smallconfused:
From what I'm seeing in the Dragon Magazine they are worded much like Rapid Shot is, and like Greenish posted: must be making a full attack to make use of Arrow storm and When using the full attack option for Arrow Storm and Sniper respectively.

Or is there another source you're getting that from?

[Hiro Protagonest]

RAPID SHOT
You can use ranged weapons with exceptional speed.
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normalones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full
attack action (see page 143) to use this feat.

Yes, that means, whenever making a full attack, you can use it.

[Winrod]

The source I have for the feats is the phb and crystal keep for the targeteer feats. I quoted them cut and paste style.

Are you saying you can make a rapid shot (2 attacks) then swarm attack (2 more shots) in the same round? By the written rules on page 143 that makes no sense to allow. It clearly says a full attack action uses a full round and no other action can be taken other than a 5 foot step.

[Winrod]

on top of that then sacrafice those 4 shots to make your crit range 16-20 for your one shot that turn?

If that was the case would it not be at a -7 penatly? -2 for rapid shot and -5 for arrow swarm?

[Terazul]

Are you saying you can make a rapid shot (2 attacks) then swarm attack (2 more shots) in the same round?

Yes, because you make them as part of the same Full Attack Action.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The source I have for the feats is the phb and crystal keep for the targeteer feats. I quoted them cut and paste style.

Are you saying you can make a rapid shot (2 attacks) then swarm attack (2 more shots) in the same round? By the written rules on page 143 that makes no sense to allow. It clearly says a full attack action uses a full round and no other action can be taken other than a 5 foot step.

...I don't think we're talking about the same abilities here. See: swashbuckler Insightful Strike, swordsage Insightful Strike, Diamond Mind Insightful Strike, and Psionic Fist feat, Psionic Fist PrC.

And besides, Arrow Swarm/Sniper is a full attack. Rapid Shot is part of a full attack. They work together.

[Winrod]

The way I read the rule is you can either make a full round attack with rapid shot taking a -2 penalty on each shot gaining you 1 attack or arrow swarm giving you 2 extra shots at -5 or you can use sniper by replacing any extra attacks you have due to a high BASEe attack bonus. You can't combine 2 or three of these feats.

Choosing to use rapid shot uses your full round action. That does not give you the option to then use another full round action.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The way I read the rule is you can either make a full round attack with rapid shot taking a -2 penalty on each shot gaining you 1 attack or arrow swarm giving you 2 extra shots at -5 or you can use sniper by replacing any extra attacks you have due to a high BASEe attack bonus. You can't combine 2 or three of these feats.

Choosing to use rapid shot uses your full round action. That does not give you the option to then use another full round action.

Choosing to use Rapid Shot means you must use a full attack action. It isn't a full attack action in itself.

Also, I still think you've got the wrong abilities. I'm pretty sure these are class features, not feats.

[Winrod]

I understand that you get your initial attack then your rapid shot attack and both are at -2. for 2 total attacks.

-or-

you get your base attack and then 2 from arrow swarm with all at -5. for 3 total attacks.

-or-

you get your intial base attack and sacrafice your bonus attack to allow the initial to crit on 19-20 with sniper.

I do not see what allows you to combine any or all of these feats / features based on their description requiring a full round action.

Can someone post a screen shot of the dragon magazine showing the exact wording?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I understand that you get your initial attack then your rapid shot attack and both are at -2. for 2 total attacks.

It is PART of a full attack action! It is not a special full round action!

[Winrod]

your intial base attack and your rapid shot attack = a full round action.

your base attack and your arrow swarm = a full round action

your base attack and sniper = a full round action.

you can not combine things that makea full round action with each other. Please refer to page 143 of the players handbook.

[Hiro Protagonest]

your intial base attack and your rapid shot attack = a full round action.

It requires you USE a full attack action. It is not a special full round action in and of itself.

[Daftendirekt]

Rapid shot works exactly like two-weapon fighting, but with ranged weapons. It isn't a full attack action; when you make a full attack, you get an extra attack with all attacks that round at -2.


Arrow Swarm: By taking a -5 penalty to all attack rolls for a round, the targetteer may make two additional ranged attacks at his highest attack bonus. The targetteer must have the Rapid Shot feat to take this ability and must be making a full attack to make use of Arrow Swarm.

Sniper: When using the full attack option, the targetteer can sacrifice attacks to gain deadly accuracy. For each attack from a full attack sacrificed, the threat range of the targetteer's weapon increases by 1. Thus if the targetteer's ranged attack normally has a threat range of 19-20, sacrificing one attack from a full attack would increase the threat range from 18-20. A sacrificed attack only enhances the next attack. However, a targetteer can sacrifice multiple attacks to further increase the threat range. A targetteer cannot sacrifice all attacks from a full attack action.

Okay, say we have a level 6 fighter with a longbow, that puts him at BAB +6. Ignoring any ability modifiers or what have you, he full attacks at +6/+1.

Were he to use Rapid Shot, he full attacks at +4/+4/-1.

Were he to use Rapid Shot AND Arrow Swarm, he full attacks at -1/-1/-1/-1/-6.

Were he to use Rapid Shot AND Arrow Swarm, and then give up those three extra attacks as well as his iterative for Sniper, he'd make a single shot at -1 but with a 16-20 critical hit range on his longbow.

TL;DR = Yes, you CAN use Rapid Shot, Arrow Swarm, and Sniper all at once. They all modify a full attack. None of them is a full attack action in and of itself.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Were he to use Rapid Shot AND Arrow Swarm, and then give up those three extra attacks for Sniper, he'd make a single shot at -1 but with a 16-20 critical hit range on his longbow.
.

You might want to delete that first sentence. Don't want to see you get an infraction.

As for the bolded part...

Sniper: When using the full attack option, the targetteer can sacrifice attacks to gain deadly accuracy. For each attack from a full attack sacrificed, the threat range of the targetteer's weapon increases by 1. Thus if the targetteer's ranged attack normally has a threat range of 19-20, sacrificing one attack from a full attack would increase the threat range from 18-20. A sacrificed attack only enhances the next attack. However, a targetteer can sacrifice multiple attacks to further increase the threat range. A targetteer cannot sacrifice all attacks from a full attack action.

If you have 4 attacks and a 19-20 threat range, you can sacrifice two attacks to make two attacks at an 18-20 threat range, but you cannot sacrifice two to make one at a 17-20 and one at a 19-20, or sacrifice three to make one at a 16-20.

[Alleine]

The source I have for the feats is the phb and crystal keep for the targeteer feats. I quoted them cut and paste style.

Ah, well Crystal Keep isn't exactly the most accurate. It's great for quickly finding stuff because of the way it is organized, but there are plenty of errors, like the wording for the targeteer abilities that you quoted. The incorrect wording makes it sounds like each targeteer ability is a separate full attack action to initiate. The correct wording straight from Dragon Magazine #310 lists them as options to use with a full attack. This means that you are always using the same exact action(the normal Full Attack) no matter which ability(Rapid Shot, Arrow Swarm, Sniper) you use to modify it.

The text definitely can support the interpretation that all three of those can be used together seeing as they are ONLY reliant on the character in question using a full attack action.

[Daftendirekt]

If you have 4 attacks and a 19-20 threat range, you can sacrifice two attacks to make two attacks at an 18-20 threat range, but you cannot sacrifice two to make one at a 17-20 and one at a 19-20, or sacrifice three to make one at a 16-20.

... Yes you can. The very text you bolded says so.

[Hiro Protagonest]

... Yes you can. The very text you bolded says so.

Oh, thought it said "cannot". That's two spot checks I failed today.

[Winrod]

Sniper: When using the full attack option, the targetteer can sacrifice attacks to gain deadly accuracy. For each attack from a full attack sacrificed, the threat range of the targetteer's weapon increases by 1. Thus if the targetteer's ranged attack normally has a threat range of 19-20, sacrificing one attack from a full attack would increase the threat range from 18-20. A sacrificed attack only enhances the next attack. However, a targetteer can sacrifice multiple attacks to further increase the threat range. A targetteer cannot sacrifice all attacks from a full attack action.


Even by the wording in sniper it says you sacrifice an attack to to enhance the next attack. Based on that if you are using rapid shot and arrow swarm and have the attacks of -1 / -1 / -1 / -1 / -6 you would sacrifice your first -1 to enhance your second -1. If you sacrafice 4 shots to get the 16 - 20 crit range it is on your last shot only which is at a -6 to hit.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sniper: When using the full attack option, the targetteer can sacrifice attacks to gain deadly accuracy. For each attack from a full attack sacrificed, the threat range of the targetteer's weapon increases by 1. Thus if the targetteer's ranged attack normally has a threat range of 19-20, sacrificing one attack from a full attack would increase the threat range from 18-20. A sacrificed attack only enhances the next attack. However, a targetteer can sacrifice multiple attacks to further increase the threat range. A targetteer cannot sacrifice all attacks from a full attack action.


Even by the wording in sniper it says you sacrifice an attack to to enhance the next attack. Based on that if you are using rapid shot and arrow swarm and have the attacks of -1 / -1 / -1 / -1 / -6 you would sacrifice your first -1 to enhance your second -1. If you sacrafice 4 shots to get the 16 - 20 crit range it is on your last shot only which is at a -6 to hit.

Now you're just arguing semantics. Read the next line which clarifies it.

However, a targetteer can sacrifice multiple attacks to further increase the threat range.

[Winrod]

If you were meant to get the enhanced critical shots at the highest attack value it would say so. It says you get to enhance the next attack. Therefore you sacrafice your 1st to enhance your 2nd. or you sacrifice your 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th to enhance the 5th shot. or some combination there of but, you only enhance the 'next' shot. you can't sacrifice your 5th shot to enhance your 1st.

The next line 'However, a targeteer can sacrifice multiple attacks to further the threat range' has nothing to do with changing what order you shoot in or sacrifice in.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you were meant to get the enhanced critical shots at the highest attack value it would say so. It says you get to enhance the next attack. Therefore you sacrafice your 1st to enhance your 2nd. or you sacrifice your 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th to enhance the 5th shot. or some combination there of but, you only enhance the 'next' shot. you can't sacrifice your 5th shot to enhance your 1st.

The next line 'However, a targeteer can sacrifice multiple attacks to further the threat range' has nothing to do with changing what order you shoot in or sacrifice in.

Hm, I can see that argument. The second argument is it automatically defaults to your second shot. The third one is WotC messed up with the communication from dev to player again.

[Daftendirekt]

Winrod, I honestly feel like you're just arguing for the sake of argument now, and not because you actually believe that's how the mechanics work. Why would it default to your iterative attack, instead of your base attack?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Winrod, I honestly feel like you're just arguing for the sake of argument now, and not because you actually believe that's how the mechanics work. Why would it default to your iterative attack, instead of your base attack?

It's more concrete than arguing the Defending weapon enchantment can only work on swords because of the wording.

[Zaq]

Why would it default to your iterative attack, instead of your base attack?

Simple. This is a Fighter variant, and Fighters are not allowed to have anything nice. Kidding! Kidding!