Hidden blades (Not an assassin's creed character)

[Mclane]

What's the point of hidden blades? Do they offer anything other than a -2 penalty on attack rolls?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Appearing unarmed.

[Mclane]

Really? That's it? :smallconfused: That is not worth it.

[Studoku]

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to- could you post a book and page number?

I'd assume the advantage of hidden blades would be that they're hidden. Guards wanting you to be unarmed before meeting the king? Bring hidden blades and stab him anyway.

DISCLAIMER: The owner of this post does not support the stabbing of monarchs- constitutional or otherwise.

[Mclane]

Complete scoundrel page 109 under surprise weapons. I like the king stabbing idea though. I might use that some day. :smallcool:

[Studoku]

Ok, I read it. The advantage is just the ability to smuggle them into situations where you shouldn't have them.

Depending on the campaign, this might not be too useful. If you're dungeon-crawling, you're better off using real weapons. Not that that means you shouldn't get a hidden weapon as a backup- the cost of them is trivial compared to most items if you don't spend extra on masterwork and magic.

[elvengunner69]

Dare I say it's probably realistic at -2 if not more...pulling a hidden blade and stabbing someone with it would I think be really, really hard.

Cool if you pull it off though!

[Golden Ladybug]

The best use of Hidden Blades is to be a Bard, and then stick them into your Instrument.

And then make them Vorpal.

I've told the tale of when I got banned from playing Bards, right? Because it involved Vorpal Hidden Blades, Inspire Courage and a three digit Diplomacy score...

[Daftendirekt]

The best use of Hidden Blades is to be a Bard, and then stick them into your Instrument.

And then make them Vorpal.

I've told the tale of when I got banned from playing Bards, right? Because it involved Vorpal Hidden Blades, Inspire Courage and a three digit Diplomacy score...

I have not heard this story. Recount it here or link?

[nhbdy]

There's also the free sneak attack you get when you pull it, iirc it makes the first attack as if the opponent is flat footed.

Admittedly this isn't really useful as there are better ways to guarantee sneak attacks, but it could be seen as an insurance of sorts.

[Greenish]

There's also the free sneak attack you get when you pull it, iirc it makes the first attack as if the opponent is flat footed.You're confusing the weapons with the skill trick.

[Zeofar]

Beside the aforementioned skill trick, Hidden Weapons may also synergize with Flick of the Wrist (CWar) and Combat Cloak Expert (PHII), and they also leave you with a weapon if you get disarmed. Then again, all those work with normal weapons. In general, the only benefits are style and being able to keep your weapons hidden, which may be useful in the scoundrel-centric campaigns for which they were designed. Or you could Homebrew a line of feats like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224178) that let you get some special use from them.

[Greenish]

One of the problems of the hidden weapons is that they have set DC (15) to be found when you're searched, while most weapons you hide on your body have the search check opposed by your sleight of hand, making it a superior proposition.

The better weapons for hiding (the ones that don't take penalty to attack) even give bonuses to hide them, such as dagger (PHB, +2), spinning sword (SoS, +6), disguised dagger (DC, +7) or masquerade as harmless items, such as sword cane (CityWeb (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a)), weighted cloak (CityWeb (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a)), monk's cane (SoS), war fan (A&EG) or collapsing crescent fan (Sand).

[Kaeso]

Really? That's it? :smallconfused: That is not worth it.

Clearly you're thinking like a dungeon delver and not like a scoundrel :smallwink:

[Greenish]

Clearly you're thinking like a dungeon delver and not like a scoundrel :smallwink:Any scoundrel worth the epithet would have better ways of smuggling weapons to where they're not supposed to be.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Any scoundrel worth the epithet would have better ways of smuggling weapons to where they're not supposed to be.

Yeah. It's better to wear gnomish quickrazors or take Quick Draw and hide a light weapon on you using Sleight of Hand.

[Zaq]

Any scoundrel worth the epithet would have better ways of smuggling weapons to where they're not supposed to be.

Well, duh. The hidden blades are the decoy. You let them find them, and then they're less likely to suspect your real hidden weapons.

[Kaeso]

Well, duh. The hidden blades are the decoy. You let them find them, and then they're less likely to suspect your real hidden weapons.

.......genius

[Coidzor]

Any scoundrel worth the epithet would have better ways of smuggling weapons to where they're not supposed to be.

Heck, shrink item + earrings beats a lot. Even if they've progressed to the point of cavity searches.

[Greenish]

Heck, shrink item + earrings beats a lot. Even if they've progressed to the point of cavity searches.And of course, a MW sword cane requires DC 30 search check to recognize it as a weapon. If you don't specifically search for it, you can't recognize it as a weapon.

Contractual genre blindness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContractualGenreBlindness), eh? :smalltongue:

[Metahuman1]

You're confusing the weapons with the skill trick.

Once played a Rogue with both and a High Grapple Mod. Guy would grab you and then you got shanked with multiple sneak attacks that had high Str Mod backing them as well as a Chained Greater Magic Weapon on all of them from a helpful party Wizard, then you took fairly optimized Grapple Damage on top of that.

Three sessions in and suddenly EVERYTHING was either Ungrappleable or Immune to sneak attacks.


Edit: Too the OP. Best hidden weapon in D&D is to be very good at unarmed combat. If there trying to take your limbs, concealing your ability's doesn't matter anymore. If there not, Disarming you just became pointless.

[Reprimand]

Well, duh. The hidden blades are the decoy. You let them find them, and then they're less likely to suspect your real hidden weapons.

I tip my hat to you sir.

You are clearly the superior scoundrel.

[fryplink]

We must go deeper!

You have your hidden blades, which are a decoy...
for your real hidden weapons.... which are a decoy....
for your 15 levels in unarmed swordsage.

You have no intention of using any weapon you've hidden. they just think you are very reliant on weapon. I suppose at that point, you should just go in without weapons though.

[Golden Ladybug]

We must go deeper!

You have your hidden blades, which are a decoy...
for your real hidden weapons.... which are a decoy....
for your 15 levels in unarmed swordsage.

You have no intention of using any weapon you've hidden. they just think you are very reliant on weapon. I suppose at that point, you should just go in without weapons though.

But that wouldn't be fun! From now on, every character I make that doesn't use Weapons will carry LOTS of weapons, all the time.

Because you never know; you might need to outfit a group of peasants to fight some Zombies or something?

Also, Bard Story, spoilered for not-derailing the thread:

In my Group, I DM most of the time, as I'm probably the most rules savvy and enjoy it, but the rest of my group often takes turns at the helm, because they have a story they'd like to run, or I ask for a break.

So, about a year ago, one of my playgroup put up his hand and asked if he could take over as DM for a while, which I was happy to accept. This wasn't really a very good idea in hindsight, because while he was a good player and a good roleplayer, he wasn't a good storyteller, nor was he a very good DM.

He decided to write up a very, very bland story, which focused on a prince trying to get his throne back from an evil Necromancer who killed his father blah blah blah. Now, that isn't necessarily bad, but when he announced that he, as a DM, would be playing the character of the prince, I sort of lost hope that it was going to be an enjoyable Campaign. This turned out to be fairly spot on, and his Campaign was full of those mistakes that DMs make when they've never DM'd before (which he hadn't, so I didn't hold it against him). I was, at first, playing a Daring Outlaw, and he often shut me down (turning off Precision Damage, making me fight Flying Creatures, etc, etc) because I was muscling in on the role he envisioned for his Prince. Eventually I got myself killed, and rolled up a new character.

I rolled a Bard. Not just any Bard; THE Bard. I had a flute, and hummed something that I thought could pass for Flute playing for Bardic Music. I also took advantage of a few unbalanced "homebrew" feats that he had crafted along with some other silly things (Item Familiar, Custom Items of Diplomacy) to crank my Diplomacy and Bluff scores through the roof, and did all the Social Interaction for the group. I did next to nothing with my spells.

So, all was going swimmingly, and I was having fun. Until we had the first encounter with the BBEG. We were still in a previous Combat that I'd just solved by speed Diplomancing some Mooks into Friendly status, and had Inspire Courage playing so that the rest of the Party could deal with some Animals. Pretty Standard combat up to this point, and then he brings out his Super Villian. The Evil Necromancer that killed the Angsty Prince's Father, and immediately I got hit by a SoD.

Natural 20 gets me out of that. Our temporary DM is visibly fuming.

I'm at the top of Initiative, but the Necromancer throws a Celerity in for a Twinned Enervation, and I take 5 Negative Levels. Ouch. My BAB, Saves and HP tank, as do my oft neglected spells. Thinking that I'm dead anyway, I walk on over to this Necromancer, pull out the Hidden Blade in my flute and attack. And roll a second natural 20 for the night. With a Vorpal Hidden Blade.

Against the main villain of the campaign.

So, our DM stormed off angrily, saying I ruined the campaign because the Prince was supposed to kill the Necromancer, and everyone else was laughing their Asses off that I'd just done that. Me and the DM talked it out, I apologised for "ruining" his campaign and offered to help him better his DMing skills, and he apologised for stepping all over my characters. Everything worked out, and we started off a new campaign. But the next time someone else DM'd I was not so subtly told that I was not allowed to play a Bard.

[Daftendirekt]

But that wouldn't be fun! From now on, every character I make that doesn't use Weapons will carry LOTS of weapons, all the time.

Liiiike this?

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af244/judeferguson42/WEAPONmaster.jpg

[Sgt. Cookie]

There is one thing that you all seem to be forgetting. Surprise weapons are not wielded in the hands. What use is that? Well, eight extra attacks per round is one thing I can think of.

Assuming a humanoid with four limbs, that gives you eight "slots" for different weapons, two boot blades, two knee blades, two sleeve blades and two elbow blades. And you still have your hands free!

So, if you take two weapon fighting, this lessens the penalty for your "off hand" attacks. Because these are all treated as light weapons, they incur even less of a penalty for your "off hand" attacks. So, all in all, you gain eight extra attacks, with a mere, -4 penalty! Use in conjunction with two light weapons in either hand, and you can make ten different attacks per round!

[NNescio]

There is one thing that you all seem to be forgetting. Surprise weapons are not wielded in the hands. What use is that? Well, eight extra attacks per round is one thing I can think of.

Assuming a humanoid with four limbs, that gives you eight "slots" for different weapons, two boot blades, two knee blades, two sleeve blades and two elbow blades. And you still have your hands free!

So, if you take two weapon fighting, this lessens the penalty for your "off hand" attacks. Because these are all treated as light weapons, they incur even less of a penalty for your "off hand" attacks. So, all in all, you gain eight extra attacks, with a mere, -4 penalty! Use in conjunction with two light weapons in either hand, and you can make ten different attacks per round!

......

Not sure if serious. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0233.html)

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, that would probably require multi*-weapon fighting.








*multi. You know. More than two.

[Greenish]

So, all in all, you gain eight extra attacks, with a mere, -4 penalty! Use in conjunction with two light weapons in either hand, and you can make ten different attacks per round!Then add n amount of braid blades.

[Coidzor]

Then you wouldn't so much be attacking as rolling over enemies as a giant bladed katamari of death.

[Sgt. Cookie]

......

Not sure if serious. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0233.html)

Deadly. :smallamused:

:smalltongue:

The basic point still stands though. Surprise weapons are not wielded in the hands.


Then add n amount of braid blades.

What are braid blades?

[Coidzor]

Braid blades are from dragon magazine and they're little things that tie on to one's hair, either head hair or beard hair and one can get an extra attack from them on a full attack, with tumble lessening the penalty on the attack.

[absolmorph]

Yeah, that would probably require multi*-weapon fighting.








*multi. You know. More than two.
The multi- prefix doesn't mean "more than two", it means "more than one". Two weapons is still multiple weapons.
The distinction between TWF and MWF has bugged me for a while 'cause of that (and the fact that it just screws over people with multiple weapons more).

[Drathmar]

Any scoundrel worth the epithet would have better ways of smuggling weapons to where they're not supposed to be.

Also: Being a soulblade... having a weapon that is completely un-findable until you need it.

[Sir_Chivalry]

So, if I wanted to revamp one of my villains so she was a specialist with hidden weapons, what would I need?

Assuming:


2 boot blades
2 elbow blades
2 knee blades
2 sleeve blades
2 boot sheathes (A&E) with disguised daggers
2 wrist sheathes (A&E) with disguised daggers
1 weighted cloak
1 sword cane
1 spinning sword


What feats and skills would she require? So far I can imagine:

Sleight of Hand
Tumble
TWF, Surprise Weapon Mastery, Dance of the Hidden Blades (latter two from homebrew mentioned earlier)
Combat Cloak Mastery and Flick of the Wrist

All this I can get with a Thug fighter variant, so that's no problem. I'm avoiding the fans as that would look weird on her (she's not a fan type of girl), and the quickrazor as another villain in her group is an iaijutsu master. I'm not trying to dillute his "quick slash" thing, more I realized that being the crazy prepared warrior she is, this villain would most likely carry all this stuff.

Any advice?

P.S. She's a were-dire polarbear, but when in human form she's "only" got a 19 Strength (compared to 45 in bear form). Is it acceptable for a high strength character to focus on these weapons, or should these be back-ups for a two-handed main weapon?