[3.P]Totemist//Gestalt Melee Assistance

[Demon of Death]

Hello,

First off my character idea would be useful, I'm going to be going for using Natural Attacks as my main attack, with the whole being a Totemist and all.

I'm looking for ideas on what the other side of my Gestalt should be, I'm tired of casters and manifesters, and Initiators don't seem like they would be useful as most of their stuff uses a standard action or such. So not really sure what I should do.

My Stats are this before Racial Mods.
STR:18
DEX:17
CON:18
INT:16
WIS:14
CHA:12

I am playing a Doppelganger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/doppelganger) with being able to go from Small to Large Size for campaign specific. My stats are all +2 except +8 Strength and +4 Charisma. One thing about the Ganger is that they have proficiency in everything

Level 4 is where we are at now.

Let me know if I forgot anything.
I have read the various guides for Totemists as well.

[FyreByrd]

Hello,

First off my character idea would be useful, I'm going to be going for using Natural Attacks as my main attack, with the whole being a Totemist and all.

I'm looking for ideas on what the other side of my Gestalt should be, I'm tired of casters and manifesters, and Initiators don't seem like they would be useful as most of their stuff uses a standard action or such. So not really sure what I should do.

My Stats are this before Racial Mods.
STR:18
DEX:17
CON:18
INT:16
WIS:14
CHA:12

I am playing a Doppelganger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/doppelganger) with being able to go from Small to Large Size for campaign specific. My stats are all +2 except +8 Strength and +4 Charisma. One thing about the Ganger is that they have proficiency in everything

Level 4 is where we are at now.

Let me know if I forgot anything.
I have read the various guides for Totemists as well.

I like Totemist//Binder(Tome of Magic) lots (I tend to refluff vestiges as coming from incarnum).

Binder gives some fairly passive abilities that can be changed on a regular basis, which works well with an active class like totemist


I know that you're bored of manifesters, but a bit of PsyWar is always fun, as you can gain even more natural attacks.

[cthulhubear]

What about barbarian? The two classes combined is very flavorful and great mechanically. If you want to create a warrior totemist, barbarian is a pretty good class for it.

[Demon of Death]

I like Totemist//Binder(Tome of Magic) lots (I tend to refluff vestiges as coming from incarnum).

Binder gives some fairly passive abilities that can be changed on a regular basis, which works well with an active class like totemist


I know that you're bored of manifesters, but a bit of PsyWar is always fun, as you can gain even more natural attacks.

That didn't work out to well, he died from a CR 10 Fire Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225453)
I had thought of PsyWar, and it did seem like it could be fun.

[Psyren]

Psionics and Incarnum have a LOT of synergy. Having said that, I would go with Ardent or even Psion rather than Psywar; you're not getting any BAB or HD from Psywar, the proficiencies are meaningless, and your biggest achilles heel is your Will save, which Psywar won't strengthen as much as those other two classes will.

[Godskook]

1.Is your DM letting you take Doppelganger? There's no listed LA, but I'm not sure how that'd work in Pathfinder. In 3.5 it has 4 RHD and 4 LA, meaning you need to be lvl 8 just to use one; in gestalt, DMs often rule that this only affects one side's progression and not the other, but there's no rule on how it works officially.

2.I'm going to continue the psionic suggestion, at least in part. You can easily squeeze both onto one side if your DM allows Soul Manifester, and take a 3rd thing on your second side.

3.Actually, what is your DM's rules on Gestalt? Gestalt RAW is poorly written to the point that each DM really should do a complete overhaul.

[Demon of Death]

1.Is your DM letting you take Doppelganger? There's no listed LA, but I'm not sure how that'd work in Pathfinder. In 3.5 it has 4 RHD and 4 LA, meaning you need to be lvl 8 just to use one; in gestalt, DMs often rule that this only affects one side's progression and not the other, but there's no rule on how it works officially.

2.I'm going to continue the psionic suggestion, at least in part. You can easily squeeze both onto one side if your DM allows Soul Manifester, and take a 3rd thing on your second side.

3.Actually, what is your DM's rules on Gestalt? Gestalt RAW is poorly written to the point that each DM really should do a complete overhaul.

That would be helpful information, yes.

My group doesn't use RHD, we have 4 "free" LA, meaning it doesn't take up any slots. And yes he is letting me take it. It's also doesn't have the Detect Thoughts, which I forgot about.

And as for the rules of Gestalt, they are; dual progression such as MT is fine, and dual PrC'ing should be okay (that part changes campaign to campaign).

Another note, all casters are spontaneous for their entire list they know
Also, a note about the other party members, they are a Druid//Sorcerer Weretiger Elf and the other a Minotaur Monk//StP Erudite with no Unique Powers Per Day mechanic (The DM's character)

[Tvtyrant]

Dragon Fire Adept or Dragon Shaman as your other Gestalt side, and then load up on metabreath feats. You nuke everything on the first round of combat, and then switch into melee combat for the mop-up. Or you use entangling breath and entangle everything, then go hit them.

Alternatively, you could play as a Wildshape Ranger//Totemist and prestige the Ranger part into Master of Many Forms. Your Incarnum abilities are still maintained in other forms, so you can turn into, say, a gargantuan Scorpion with 8 or 9 natural attacks a turn.

Oooh! Or a Young Adult Red Dragon for 6 natural attacks before you even throw Totemist on top.

[Wyntonian]

I can think of a couple homebrew classes that might help, if you're open to them. Also, yeah, with your stats you could make a psion work for you.

[onemorelurker]

That would be helpful information, yes.

My group doesn't use RHD, we have 4 "free" LA, meaning it doesn't take up any slots. And yes he is letting me take it. It's also doesn't have the Detect Thoughts, which I forgot about.

And as for the rules of Gestalt, they are; dual progression such as MT is fine, and dual PrC'ing should be okay (that part changes campaign to campaign).

Another note, all casters are spontaneous for their entire list they know
Also, a note about the other party members, they are a Druid//Sorcerer Weretiger Elf and the other a Minotaur Monk//StP Erudite with no Unique Powers Per Day mechanic (The DM's character)

If you can use dual-progression PrCs, Barbarian -> Totem Rager would be a good fit, though I think that not having a Tier 1 class might make you underpowered in the party you describe.

[Urpriest]

If you can use dual-progression PrCs, Barbarian -> Totem Rager would be a good fit, though I think that not having a Tier 1 class might make you underpowered in the party you describe.

Yeah, I'd put this on one side and Druid on the other. Druid has lots of spells that help natural attacks, you arguably keep your soulmelds active in Wild Shape, and the spellcasting rules in your game are so ridiculous that if you don't have casting you will be squished almost by necessity.

Oh also, question: if you don't play with RHD, aren't most monsters you fight rather squishy? :smalltongue:

[onemorelurker]

Oh also, question: if you don't play with RHD, aren't most monsters you fight rather squishy? :smalltongue:

They probably all take levels in casting classes. Goodness knows I would, in their place. :smallwink:

[Demon of Death]

Dragon Fire Adept or Dragon Shaman as your other Gestalt side, and then load up on metabreath feats. You nuke everything on the first round of combat, and then switch into melee combat for the mop-up. Or you use entangling breath and entangle everything, then go hit them.

Possibility.

Alternatively, you could play as a Wildshape Ranger//Totemist and prestige the Ranger part into Master of Many Forms. Your Incarnum abilities are still maintained in other forms, so you can turn into, say, a gargantuan Scorpion with 8 or 9 natural attacks a turn.

Oooh! Or a Young Adult Red Dragon for 6 natural attacks before you even throw Totemist on top.
DM probably wouldn't let me do that.


I can think of a couple homebrew classes that might help, if you're open to them. Also, yeah, with your stats you could make a psion work for you.

Homebrew is unfortunately not allowed at this table :smallfrown:


If you can use dual-progression PrCs, Barbarian -> Totem Rager would be a good fit, though I think that not having a Tier 1 class might make you underpowered in the party you describe.

Forgot that forgetting to including one little sentence can change the responses you get so much.
The other two members I would rate at Tier 3 or 4 at best, the Druid took Sorcerer over Wizard in the way we do casters, and the Psion took Monk over, well, anything, with no archetypes.
And the Weretiger Elf took the Tigers HD as a bonus to his, not paying for them, as you would normally, or not including them in any way for how we do them because he doesn't understand the rules of the game very well.

Yeah, I'd put this on one side and Druid on the other. Druid has lots of spells that help natural attacks, you arguably keep your soulmelds active in Wild Shape, and the spellcasting rules in your game are so ridiculous that if you don't have casting you will be squished almost by necessity.
The rule for that is mainly because we have 3 players and one of them is a DM, so that we can have some versatility, and because the DM misread the Spell Point Variant that we use.


Oh also, question: if you don't play with RHD, aren't most monsters you fight rather squishy? :smalltongue:

I meant for PC's :smalltongue:, although that could be interesting.

And, we don't use AoO's either.
Yea, this table's a bit odd.

[Tvtyrant]

Possibility.

DM probably wouldn't let me do that.


The first one would be fun to play, since it is super Con SAD and gets a lot of nice options.

Its too bad the second one wouldn't fly though, since I found the perfect form. The Rukanyr from the Fiend Folio gets 1 slam, 3 bites (with poison) and 6! claw attacks, is large, and only has 7 HD. It also gets so many passive EX abilities it is almost impossible that they printed it. Add pounce/Rend from the Totemist, and you get amazing amounts of damage.

[Coidzor]

Doppelganger and totemist, you say? You can get a horned helm for 6K from the Magic Item Compendium that gives you a gore attack as a "natural" weapon.

Take a level or few in Warshaper and you can add on some more natural weapons in addition to what you get from totemist.

Can't recall if you can nab nature's warrior too or not though.

[Demon of Death]

Doppelganger and totemist, you say? You can get a horned helm for 6K from the Magic Item Compendium that gives you a gore attack as a "natural" weapon.

Take a level or few in Warshaper and you can add on some more natural weapons in addition to what you get from totemist.

Can't recall if you can nab nature's warrior too or not though.

I can't take NW as it requires Wild Shape, so that's a no-go.
And I completely planned on taking 4 levels in Warshaper later on. And I will be using the Horned Helm when I can, for even more Natural Attack goodness.

[Coidzor]

Are you able to use the natural attacks of whatever you turn into? Because while you can get bite attacks from soulmelds and they're pretty good, something like a darfellan with an innate bite attack might be of interest if you can.

Actually, do you have a "go-to" combat form in mind?

[Tvtyrant]

You know, making the other side of the gestalt a Bardblade that concentrates on Tiger Claw boosts/stances and White Raven for control/buffing might not too bad either. If you went DFI you could add it to your oodles of natural attacks for a lot of damage.

[Coidzor]

You know, making the other side of the gestalt a Bardblade that concentrates on Tiger Claw boosts/stances and White Raven for control/buffing might not too bad either. If you went DFI you could add it to your oodles of natural attacks for a lot of damage.

I for one can never say no to the tried and true uber-blenderization of lots of attacks and lots of d6s on every attack.

[Demon of Death]

Are you able to use the natural attacks of whatever you turn into? Because while you can get bite attacks from soulmelds and they're pretty good, something like a darfellan with an innate bite attack might be of interest if you can.

Actually, do you have a "go-to" combat form in mind?

I forgot about this thread, and just remembered it.

I was planning on being a Skarn most of the time for their Spine Attack, but if there are better suggestions I'm definitely willing to hear them, especially since I can change it whenever I want.


You know, making the other side of the gestalt a Bardblade that concentrates on Tiger Claw boosts/stances and White Raven for control/buffing might not too bad either. If you went DFI you could add it to your oodles of natural attacks for a lot of damage.

Bardblade?

So if I spend a feat to get the Dragonblood Subtype and then one for Dragonfire Inspiration and go Bard on the other side I would be getting 1d6 of fire damage for now, until 5th level, to get 2d6, and spend the first round of combat (until later levels when it can be done as a different action) singing. Not too bad sounding.

Now, I today thought of going Soul Eater (BoVD) for negative levels on every attack, so on a normal routine at level 4 I could be inflicting as many as 4 negative levels on a target, right?

If I do go with Soul Eater, should I take it to 9 or stop elsewhere? I think take it to 9, for wights and all good saves and full BAB.

I was also mistaken on the Gestalt rules, I can't take dual PrC's but Dual Progression is fine.

[onemorelurker]

Bardblade?

A Bard/Warblade with the Song of the White Raven feat, which lets Bard and Warblade (and Crusader) levels stack for Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration and allows you to start IC or DFI as a swift action while in a White Raven stance.

[Urpriest]

Soul Eater arguably requires a Standard action to bestow a negative level. Just putting that out there.

[Metahuman1]

Good classes to add here.

Druid: Wildshaping with Natural Spell, no MAD increase, Good will save, for the win.

Cleric: Solid buffs, Travel Devotion and another useful domain or devotion, small Mad increase, good will. Dip it for one level if nothing else to get the extra Mobility form Travel Devotion.

Wizard or Sorcerer: Touch spells to boost natural attacks and Buffs and a good Will save. Small MAD increase.

Barbarian: Fun, Flavorful, Rage is useful, more so with Cobolt Rage, and Trap Killer + Pounce add versatility and Mobility. Consider Frenzied Berserker as a PrC option. Full BaB and d12 hit dice are also nice. And if nothing else, a 1 lvl dip for pounce is all but mandatory at anything other then low op.

Fist of the Forest: Get's a mention here since the extra natural slam attack and save you a soul meld that can be used for something else and since Con to AC is potentially a nice pick up. If your pushing the scout thing form Barbarian, go all three levels to get scent.

Dragon Shamen/Fire Adapet: Smart choices of Invocations keep Mad down if you got the Adept route and let you Con SAD. If the Shamen, the MAD doesn't go up that much. Either way, Metabreath feats are a huge boon too you and can let you do some really neat and useful things. Shamen it's worth noting also ups Survivability a bit.

Binder: Fun, flavorful, the Best Vestiges don't increase Mad, and it can aid more or less any way you need it too.

Bard: Careful Choices of spells keeps your MAD Down, and Optimized Inspire Courage can make a World of difference on your damage output. Combine with Bardic Knack and the skill points as well as the 2 good saves and you have a solid option.

Rogue: Skills and Sneak attack and a couple of other Tricks that play well off Totemist for little investment of your feats and other resources.

Fighter: Hey, don't laugh. Certain Variants can be helpful depending on all the specifics of play style. And a Full BaB + d10 hit dice + Tons of Melee bonus feats for a Melee Gestalt character is far more powerful then when you only have the one class.

Swordsage or Warblade: If you dip out for Pounce and Travel devotion, Desert Wind, White Raven, Tiger Claw, and Diamond Mind are amazing. Picking up Mountain Hammer for Utility and a couple of Iron Heart Counters for some extra tricks is flavorful and helpful as well.

[Godskook]

I forgot about this thread, and just remembered it.

I was planning on being a Skarn most of the time for their Spine Attack, but if there are better suggestions I'm definitely willing to hear them, especially since I can change it whenever I want.

I suggest being a not-skarn. This allows you to take advantage of the claw attacks given you by almost 95% of things you could do to get natural attacks.

[Demon of Death]

I suggest being a not-skarn. This allows you to take advantage of the claw attacks given you by almost 95% of things you could do to get natural attacks.

Ok, so something like the Darfallen then.

Also, what are anyones thoughts on taking the Corrupted Creature from BoVD/Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, the reason I ask is that is treats all natural weapons as a size larger for damage, and I get +4 Str and +4 Con -2 Wis -2 Cha for no LA, plus gets Fast Healing 1/2 Level.

[Urpriest]

Ok, so something like the Darfallen then.

Also, what are anyones thoughts on taking the Corrupted Creature from BoVD/Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, the reason I ask is that is treats all natural weapons as a size larger for damage, and I get +4 Str and +4 Con -2 Wis -2 Cha for no LA, plus gets Fast Healing 1/2 Level.

I don't have access to Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, did they update it to LA +0? It doesn't have LA in BoVD, which of course means something quite different.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, having trouble thinking of humanoids that have better than darfellan's bite or kobold's bite/claw/claw, sorry.

[Metahuman1]

LA 0, +4 to your primary and Tertiary stats, -2 to a pair of Dump stats, and weapons hit one size category bigger for there damage dice?


Yeah, dude, unless there's gonna be an utterly crippling RP thrown on it by the DM, go for it.

[Demon of Death]

I don't have access to Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, did they update it to LA +0? It doesn't have LA in BoVD, which of course means something quite different.

Having read your Guide, I know that they are different, and it is a LA:-- template in Expedition still.


Yeah, having trouble thinking of humanoids that have better than darfellan's bite or kobold's bite/claw/claw, sorry.
It's all good, for now I can just be something like that.

A small note though, in PF Giants are now Humanoid (Giant), therefore eligible if they are Small,Medium, or Large, so that expands the list considerably.


LA 0, +4 to your primary and Tertiary stats, -2 to a pair of Dump stats, and weapons hit one size category bigger for there damage dice?

Yeah, dude, unless there's gonna be an utterly crippling RP thrown on it by the DM, go for it.

I decided to go with it. So far, pretty nice. The Disruptive Attack for extra damage is nice as well.


A note for the Soul Eaters Energy Drain ability, in BoVD under the Corrupted creature it says this "Disruptive Attack (Su): The corrupt creature deals additional vile damage (see Chapter 2) when it touches uncorrupted, living, corporeal nonoutsiders. The amount of vile damage dealt is equal to half of the creature's Hit Dice (maximum 20 points of damage). For example, a 14-HD corrupted frost worm deals an additional 7 points of vile damage with its bite attack." So, it could argued that the SE ability uses the same "touch" language as this does,and would be applied to every attack, as they are in the same book.

[Coidzor]

Oh. Oh my. That was an oversight on my part to forget that.

Well then. Forest Trolls (MM...MM3?) have a pretty good bite/claw/claw combo, being basically medium trolls, so the claws you got from that would probably not be overshadowed by the two of four from girallon's arms that overlap with pre-existing arms.

Hmm... And of course, trolls are just large by themselves, so that'd work too. Might be a 4-armed giant that fits the bill in one of the splats, but that might be too much of a fantasy...

Most X Giants'll give you 2 slams. Which would necessitate you having to choose between them and any claws you got over your primary hands via totemist.... But a bludgeoning alternative to clawing's slashing and piercing could be situationally useful.

Might wanna check out Dusk and Incarnum Giants from... Heroes of Horror and Magic of Incarnum respectively, IIRC. Even without Dusk Giant cheese, IIRC, Dusk Giants have a slam/slam/bite or claw/claw/bite routine.

[Metahuman1]

If your really keen on a as many limbs as possible, check out the none Psionic Thri-keen. There in one of the Forgotten Realms Splats.

4 arms for LA 1 and a Racial Hit Die that grants full BAB.