Favourite way to generate ability scores?

[Orsen]

Hi everyone,
I'm just curious as to how most groups generate ability scores. I see the Iron Chef competitions using thirty point buy along with many other posters but every once in a while people will talk about rolling 5d6 drop worst two for simply awesome scores. My group started with standard roll 4d6 drop lowest but I (the DM) didn't like the discrepancy in scores between some players. For our latest campaign we started with 25 point buy, but after a few deaths we bumped it up to 32 which people seem happier with.
How do your groups do abilities? What's your favourite way to provide balance and power for the parties?

[pwykersotz]

My group likes a 28 point buy with a rule that no starting stat can be higher than 20 after racial modifiers, templates, and other adjustments are included. It keeps everyone on an even playing field and stops the wide discrepancies that happen when you rely on random rolls and stops the re-rolling if that were allowed.

My other group which introduced me to D&D lets you roll 4d6 per stat, drop the lowest one, and when you've rolled all of them if you aren't happy, reroll them all. Myself and two others in that group have all 18's and 17's as our starting stats. That's pretty much what encouraged me to not do it for my main group.

[Greenish]

I much prefer point buy to rolling, since the latter can cause large discrepancies. By the normal 3.5 pb, 32 points or so is my favourite, allowing for several decent scores (16-14) without dumping everything ever.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I too prefer using point buy, 32 being my favourite but I have been in games that have used 40.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I enjoy rolling for stats immensely, even though every time I do it screws me over and makes me question why I enjoy it. I've tried using point buy once, but one very vocal player in my group, who is used to rolling multiple 18s, complains about it. I've just given pre-determined arrays for the last few campaigns, usually 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.

[Vortling]

I personally prefer point buy and all the games I've run have gone with 28 point buy. I've been in games where stats were rolled and the differences between the characters tend to be obvious to the point of making it unfun.

[some guy]

4d6 best 3. If your total bonusses aren't +3 or more, or if your highest score is 13 you may reroll.
If that doesn't float your boat, you may use the elite array of 15,14,13,12,10,8.

[Geigan]

My group uses either a specific form of point buy or a specific type of random roll, based on whether we have defined character concepts we want to try or whether we want to come up with something off the top of our heads respectively.

Our point buy is not like the standard point buy in that each point just equals 1 ability increase no matter what. We just like the simplicity. Basically your character starts with all 10s and allocates either 20 or 30 points(based on whether we're doing a medium to high power campaign) however you wish with no stat higher than 18 before racial modifiers. It's a high powered method to be sure but it's at least fair, and we prefer it when we want our specific concepts to work.

For the random roll you roll 3d6 36 times putting the results in order from left to right then top to bottom on a 6x6 chart. Pick a row/column/diagonal and take those as your stats in order either front to back or back to front(or sometimes in whatever order you want if the DM is feeling especially generous). As an example I might roll up this chart:
{table]9|13|8|11|8|4
7|11|8|9|8|14
7|15|10|8|10|13
14|10|9|7|10|11
10|9|12|9|11|9
12|14|8|13|6|5
[/table]
I'd probably pick the 2nd column top to bottom and play him as the meatshield of the party, probably a crusader to get some use out of that high charisma at the back there.
Sometimes you get good rolls sometimes you get bad rolls, but we feel this at least gives you options to choose from among your rolls, while still giving you the fun of living with what luck gave you. Half the fun of this method is building with what you're given.

We're a bit oddball when it comes to stat generation.

[Wyntonian]

Eh, I usually allow either 32 pb or 7 sets of 5d6b3, drop lowest, arrange as you want. Whole group use the same style. Yeah, I know, rolling can cause discrepancies, but hey, it's still fun.

[0nimaru]

Either of:
A) 28 point buy
B) Roll 7 sets of 4d6, dropping lowest die. Take the best 6 rolls produced.

More importantly, I tend to enforce MAD reductions with things like Paladin casting Cha based or SAD nerfs by splitting up DCs/Bonus Spells for wizards to Int/Cha.

[Major_Muffin]

My group uses the very unique system my brother thought up. Using an online dice roller, we roll 1d16+2, this way the minimum is 3 and the max is 18 (which are the normal rules). You roll this 6 times, and if your total modifier is +1 or less, or if your highest roll is 14 or lower, you may reroll. This makes for some very interesting scores, like our current games necromancer who has two 3's and two 18's.

[Slipperychicken]

Point buy. It's fair. It's balanced.

[Greenish]

I enjoy rolling for stats immensely, even though every time I do it screws me over and makes me question why I enjoy it.I'm the opposite, I usually roll pretty well, and still prefer point buy.

Last time I rolled for stats, my rolls were 16, 16, 16, 15, 15, 12 (5d6b3 times six).


My group uses the very unique system my brother thought up. Using an online dice roller, we roll 1d16+2, this way the minimum is 3 and the max is 18 (which are the normal rules). You roll this 6 times, and if your total modifier is +1 or less, or if your highest roll is 14 or lower, you may reroll. This makes for some very interesting scores, like our current games necromancer who has two 3's and two 18's."Interesting" is the word, yeah. Most methods create a bell curve of probabilities, with average scores being much more likely than extreme ones, but using that, a 18 or 3 are just as likely as 10 or 11.

[Lord Ruby34]

Our group uses 4d6 seven times, drop the lowest dice and the lowest score, two sets. You can reroll if the guidelines in the DMG would let you do so.

My latest rolls were(After dropping everything) 13, 17, 12, 17, 16, 14.

EDIt: And if you're still not happy, 32 point buy.

[Solaris]

2d6+6. Good average, lets me play hardball.
I allow at least three sets, so it's not like anyone gets saddled with lousy numbers. I've yet to see a situation (outside the extremes of my brother rolling, he's a wizard with dice and probability) where characters' abilities were really far from each other even with 4d6 drop low.

[Zaq]

Always point buy, now and forever, amen. Rolling for stats is fine if you're playing Kobolds Ate My Baby or something where you don't expect the character to last through the night, but if you're putting any real effort into the character and will be sticking with them for any length of time, you don't want to be totally shafted by a single set of poor rolls.

In my group, we usually use 33 PB. (Basically, an old DM had a really wacky PB system that, when converted to something sane, ended up with 33 PB . . . and we don't want any new characters to have a disadvantage compared to old characters, so the 33 PB has stuck around.)

[Velaryon]

I've never had the chance to try point buy, as the rest of my group unanimously rejects it in favor of rolling. I'd like to give it a try sometime, but I would want a high enough point buy that I could have an 18 in my primary stat without completely hosing myself everywhere else. I really hate not having at least one score of 18, before racial modifiers.

My group tends to go for high stats. I mean REALLY high stats. One of my friends uses 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll any 1's or 2's, and roll 7 stats. That makes for what most people would consider insanely high stats. I find that a bit excessive, but I'm okay with just rerolling 1's.

When I'm running I leave it up to the group to choose how they want to roll. I don't have a hard and fast system about when a player can reroll, but if someone's stats are terrible in comparison to everyone else I give them the option to reroll.

One system I devised once but haven't tried out is to roll 24d6, drop the 6 lowest, and arrange the remaining into groups of 3 however you want to.

As a side note, once I was in a game where the DM told us to roll our stats in order. I absolutely hated it. He finally relented and allowed us to switch one of our scores with another. I still hated it, and will never do that again. If I can't choose where all six of my ability scores go, I will not play.

[Godskook]

3d6 x6, one reroll, must have a non-negative modifier sum.

Players may then spend xp to boost the effective point-buy value of their stats, capped 30+level point-buy. This costs one's current point-buy squared(so 900xp to go from 30 to 31 point-buy).

If I didn't have the ability to grow the stats, I'd use either 4d6b3 with a minimum roll requirements or 32-42 point-buy

[Flickerdart]

IRON MAN. Anything more than 3d6 in order is for babies. :smalltongue:

[Manateee]

3d6 in order.
If the group uses point buy, 3d6 in order, then whatever's left for the last score.

[Callyn]

Point buy. I like being able to choose what scores are good and what ones are bad. I always know what I can get. The specific point buy total isn't that important, but rolling is just not fun.

[Yora]

I always use PB25 in all games I run.

Allows for one or two really good scores, but keeps characters from being above average in absolutely everything. A 10 or two are very likely, but you can still start with 17 if you have racial modifiers and really want to.

[TuggyNE]

I much prefer 28 or 32 point buy, but I have rolled stats sometimes, almost always 4d6 best 3. The one time I tried 3d6, it kinda trashed my character, and I'd never even consider 3d6 in order. (I don't like rolling throw-away characters, thankyouverymuch.)

Sometime it'd be amusing to try 40 point buy. And I've heard of people who use 48, 50, even 60-point buy. (No, I have no idea what you'd do with all those points.)

[Orsen]

For my next campaign I may try PF point buy, whether I'm playing PF or 3.5.
The last campaign that my group rolled for, we had a party of five, so we got together for character creation and everyone rolled 4d6 then dropped lowest. Then everyone used the scores we had rolled together. It was a nice way to let everyone have their hand on the dice but keep everyone on an equal playing field.
Edit: For these crazy point buy games do the DM's just expand the chart so that the exponential cost just continues to grow? It seems like things would be getting to ridiculous costs eventually.

[Chylde]

18D6, Add the total, distribute to your stats as you see fit

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'm the opposite, I usually roll pretty well, and still prefer point buy.

Last time I rolled for stats, my rolls were 16, 16, 16, 15, 15, 12 (5d6b3 times six).

Well, I include boringly good stats in "screw[ing] me over." Personally, playing someone with an 18, 16, 16, 16, 14, 12 just isn't fun, unless it's a game where the heroes are supposed to be strong and fast and smart.

I also used something like "Roll 21d6, distribute the dice as you see fit" once. Kinda weird, dunno why I did that...

[Hecuba]

3d6 6 times in order, 1 floating re-roll.

[Novawurmson]

I used to use only dice rolls, but my players have extreme varying levels of luck. I was going to introduce a point buy system when one of the lucky players complained. I had them roll me up a few stat distributions using 4d6b3, and they pretty much all worked out to around a 40 pb in the Pathfinder system (as low as 39, as high as 46), so that's what we use :smalltongue:

[navar100]

I prefer rolling because you can get interesting arrays that you can't with Point Buy. The trick is not to be a slave to the roll. If one player got really unlucky with his array than everyone else, just let him reroll. It's not such a big deal. It is not unfair to the others because they have their good arrays. Maybe all that is needed is to fine-tune the array, such as increasing a score by one or two or just DM fiat one of the scores.

What I don't like about Point Buy is that it's zero-sum. It punishes you for having an 18 by forcing you to have one or two 8's. I don't demand an 18 for my character, but I also don't like being forced to have an 8. With dice rolling, I may be lucky and have no 8 or be unlucky and have one without an 18. I'm ok with that precisely because it wasn't forced. I don't need my character to have the same array as everyone else. I just need my character to be good enough.

However, I did learn of a system that's sort of a hybrid between rolling and point buy that I like. It's called 27-25-23. Roll 4d6 three times, taking the best three. Those are automatically three of your scores. Take any one of those scores and subtract it from 27. That's your 4th score. Take any of remaining two and subtract it from 25. That's your 5th score. Your 6th score is 23 minus your last roll. Finally, add +2 to any one of your scores. There is a max 18 to your score before racial adjustments. Arrange the numbers as you like.

Example: Rolled 16, 12, 10. 27 - 10 = 17, 25 - 16 = 9, 23 - 12 = 11. I now have 17, 16, 12, 11, 10, 9 for my array. I could add +2 to the 9 and have no negative modifier at all. What I'd more likely do in a Pathfinder game playing a human is put the +2 in 12 to make it a 14 for Constitution as the "adventurer's tax" then the +2 for human would go into the 16 so my final array is 18, 17, 14, 11, 10, 9. Where my 9 goes depends upon what class I'm playing and mood at the time of character creation. At 4th level that 17 is becoming an 18. At 8th level I'll consider making the 9 a 10 rather than the 11 a 12.

[Krosta]

I somewhat like to roll my stats, because it generates much more "natural looking" numbers... but, in fact, i prefer the evenness of the point-buy system.
I used to roll a lot back in the old days, but now both of my gaming groups adopted 32/28 point-buy.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I use the grid method that had been brought to my attention in another thread just like this.

Basically, you roll 4d6d3 nine times:

Roll 1: 12
Roll 2: 10
Roll 3: 14
Roll 4: 15
Roll 5: 14
Roll 6: 15
Roll 7: 14
Roll 8: 18
Roll 9: 14

And then put the rolled results into a 3x3 grid, in order from top left to bottom right:

{table]
12 | 10 | 14
15 | 14 | 15
14 | 18 | 14[/table]

Each column corresponds to a physical stat (STR, DEX and CON, in order from left to right), and each row corresponds to a mental stat (INT, WIS and CHA, in order from top to bottom), so the grid will look something like this with labels:

{table]
| STR | DEX | CON
INT | 12 | 10 | 14
WIS | 15 | 10 | 15
CHA | 14 | 18 | 14[/table]

Any single roll can be used for one of two attributes (but not both), at the point where they intersect on the grid. For instance, the 18 that I got on roll 8 meets at the intersecting point of the CHA row and the DEX column, so it can be used for either of these attributes (but not both, as each roll can only be used for one attribute).

I've rolled one good stat, and some decent stats otherwise. All told, this is pretty typical of the grid method, though the stats represented here are somewhat above-par for the typical rolled results I've been getting (I used a random number generator instead of actual dice, for what it's worth).

My one exceptional stat was rolled in the intersect of DEX and CHA, meaning it would probably be my best bet to roll up a DEX-based character (such as a ranger or rogue) or a CHA-based character (such as a sorcerer or bard). On the SAD vs. MAD issue, I have a number of serviceable rolls spanning most of the board, so there's no reason that I couldn't play a character that is MAD, such as a Charisma-focused Paladin (though "serviceable" doesn't mean "exceptional" as far as my melee damage stat is concerned). One of the possible outcomes includes (bold for physical stat, italics for mental stats):

Melee Bard (or CHA Paladin, or Sorcadin; they'd use basically the same stat array):
STR: 15
DEX: 10
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 15
CHA: 18

{table]
| STR | DEX | CON
INT | 12 | 10 | 14
WIS | 15 | 10 | 15
CHA | 14 | 18 | 14[/table]

Let's try again, with a different set of rolled results:

Roll 1: 13
Roll 2: 16
Roll 3: 14
Roll 4: 13
Roll 5: 15
Roll 6: 12
Roll 7: 10
Roll 8: 16
Roll 9: 16

Lock them into a grid:

{table]
| STR | DEX | CON
INT | 13 | 16 | 14
WIS | 13 | 15 | 12
CHA | 10 | 16 | 16[/table]

Wow, a pretty good array. Again, a DEX-based fighter or a CHA-based caster seem like the ways to go here, although a 16 is decent enough if you want to go with an INT-based caster such as the Wizard. MAD beats SAD again, in this regard (though the grid has that tendency anyway).

Some possible stat arrays:

Rogue-like:
STR 13
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 15
CHA 16

{table]
| STR | DEX | CON
INT | 13 | 16 | 14
WIS | 13 | 15 | 12
CHA | 10 | 16 | 16[/table]

Wizard/possible Theurge-type:
STR 13
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 15
CHA 10

{table]
| STR | DEX | CON
INT | 13 | 16 | 14
WIS | 13 | 15 | 12
CHA | 10 | 16 | 16[/table]

Ultimate Magus (split INT/CHA casting):
STR 13
DEX 15
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 13
CHA 16

{table]
| STR | DEX | CON
INT | 13 | 16 | 14
WIS | 13 | 15 | 12
CHA | 10 | 16 | 16[/table]

[Thurbane]

Our group almost always does 4d6b3, arrange to taste, and a re-roll of a single die at any point (keeping the best of the two results).

[SpaceBadger]

We don't use either straight die rolling or point buy. The "25 Method" (set forth below) is our variation on a system suggested by Keith Davies, that Keith credited to Justisaur. Here is a cut-paste from our house rules:

The “25 Method”
1. Roll 3d6; if total is less than 7, re-roll. Write this down as your first number.
2. Subtract your first number from 25. Write this down as your second number.
3. Roll 3d6; if total is less than 7, re-roll. Write this down as your third number.
4. Subtract your third number from 25. Write this down as your fourth number.
5. Roll 3d6; if total is less than 7, re-roll. Write this down as your fifth number.
6. Subtract your fifth number from 25. Write this down as your sixth number.
7. Assign your six numbers to your six ability scores as you choose. Keep in mind racial modifiers that you will be adding from your chosen race in step 8, so that you don’t waste any bonus; you cannot raise any ability score above 18 during character generation.
8. Add racial modifiers to ability scores.
9. You have four points to add to your ability scores as you choose, adding no more than two points to any one ability score (you can add one point each to four different ability scores; or two points each to two different ability scores; or two points to one ability score and one point each to two different ability scores). You cannot raise any ability score above 18 during character generation.
10. You should end up with six ability scores ranging from 7 to 18. If you want to decrease any of your ability scores below 7 to better fit your character concept, you can do so now.

Edit: No, waitaminnit, that was the old system that we modified because it gave too high an average score. I had to fiddle some to lower the average, while still keeping a minimum but allowing the possibility of an 18, but I don't remember exactly how I did it. Now where is that notebook...?

Edit: Nevermind, I was doing the math wrong. Yeah, this is what we use, with the subtractions and then adding the four points in where the player chooses, it averages out to 13.167 for all ability scores before racial mods, but gives the player a lot of choice in assigning those numbers to ability scores, and using the points to reach higher on a high score or bump up a low score to not be quite so bad, depending on character concept.

[Bhaakon]

Generally speaking, a medium point buy.


Although once I played a game where everyone estimated the other players' IRL ability scores, and we each had to play a character made up of the average of those estimates (so we ended up playing ourselves). That was pretty fun as a one-time thing, though there's certainly some room for hurt feelings if your group doesn't have robust chemistry (and it was an all-male group, so we didn't run into the problem of IRL gender differences).

[RedWarrior0]

I have mostly used the 32 PB, but want to do the grid style that Tylenol posted (And I actually brought up in an earlier one of these) or the semi-random point by brought to you by Ars Ludi. Basically, you choose two of your six abilities. The remaining 4 are ordered as standard, and you roll d4, then d4-2. The former indicates one of those four, the latter determines what the ability modifier must be, exactly. So if I was going for a Druid and took Wis and Con as my "safe" abilities, I would then roll a d4. Suppose it came up 2, indicating Dex. The second d4-2 then comes up (4-2=2) meaning my starting Dex needs to be 14 or 15.

[zlefin]

I like using this one I found:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Point_Buy,_Generate_Random

lets you have random stats within a point buy;
if i wanted more randomness i'd just roll for which point buy table you get to use (within a spread of no more than 6)

[Eisenfavl]

32 point buy, largely because it is the standardised optimisation method and I utterly loathe die roll attributes.

[Seharvepernfan]

I prefer the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) with the mindset that every point counts for a lot.

All beings in my campaign world have base stats from the elite or average array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8). The distribution is supposed to be 5%/95%.

[Yora]

Sometime it'd be amusing to try 40 point buy. And I've heard of people who use 48, 50, even 60-point buy. (No, I have no idea what you'd do with all those points.)
You make level 40 charactrs.

[Helldog]

Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) plus the Advanced template for free.

[Krazzman]

Point buy. It's fair. It's balanced.


Approve to this. I might start to whine a bit when it's said to be 4d6 drop lowest (which was the method we used for nearly all one-shots) but somehow either I had luck and was on the same level as the others or I had the scores that were worse than Elite Array but the rest of the group...well there was one time the wizard had more Strength and Constitution as my Goliath Barbarian...

[Yora]

When you pick the race, class, and background story for your character, you should also be able to decide in what relation the ability scores are to each other.
Without minimum ability scores to take races and classes, you have the free choice with everything else and you're not "working with what you got" anyway.

[James the Dark]

Point Buy, but I like the higher values. Ten point seems to just beg for a party of wizards or other single attribute casters. Fifteen for anything MAD is an exersize in masochism. Personally, I like twenty five as a base-line. I've played as high as 42, though.

[Aotrs Commander]

Nowadays, typically point buy, as random rolling generates far too much variance between players (even with the DM moderating and saying, "okay, compared to everyone else, that's crap, reroll that one and that one" etc).

(Our primary Rolemaster party has generated such wildly different stats as they party advanced to to dice rolls, that in the end, I had to have one or two character basically regenerate with better stats to close the gap.)

I have never liked D&D's point buy, however, so I typically use a point-for-point system. Typically this is base 8 plus 30 points (which gives you something like an 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8), though I am considering using slightly higher (32-36), since at that level, you already can't get worse in the optimisation end, and it gives a bit more play in other areas (plus we've already see what a party with those stats is like in one game with another DM).

Notably, though, I should say, the PCs opposition is almost always like-stated classed enemies, as opposed to monsters. It makes it a bit more rocket tag, you might say, but then again our second system of choice is Rolemaster (where I have literally given up making BBEGs at all), and our third WFRP 1st edition, which also nearly as bad... So by comparison...

[Drathmar]

The group I am currently with uses a somewhat homebrew method of rolling


roll 4d6 8 times (dropping lowest each time) and then picking the 6 ability scores you want.

If you aren't happy with the set you can reroll, but only roll 7 times... and then again to 6.

Our party turned out well without large discrepencies. Those that have high scores have a couple low ones to balance out... those that don't have high scores have all medium scores (13-15) pretty much with maybe one 12.

[Yora]

Point Buy, but I like the higher values. Ten point seems to just beg for a party of wizards or other single attribute casters. Fifteen for anything MAD is an exersize in masochism. Personally, I like twenty five as a base-line. I've played as high as 42, though.

10 points would be even below average for 1st level commoner who don't even have a name.
15 is the predictable average for 3d6.

I like low-power, but under 20 really is a terrible idea unless you want to play commoners.

[Techsmart]

As a dm, I personally prefer 28-point buy. I hate games where one player is significantly more powerful than the rest of his team because he got good rolls, and the rest of the party did not. Sure, it may make things fun for the him, but it makes it annoying for other players when they get poor rolls. I say this out of experience, because the rest of my dnd group likes 4d6 Drop lowest. In one campaign, I rolled 16, 12, 11, 11, 10, 6. Another player, however, rolled 18, 18, 18, 17, 16, 14. Only reason I was able to contribute to the party was because I played an optimized druid, and he gimped himself (instead of cleric, he did some limited spellcaster, I don't remember which). Having to pick a dump stat to be a 14 versus having your highest stat at 16 makes things feel a little unfair.

[Yora]

You can always start the game by making a coup the grace against yourself. If it's a high level campaign, you can't be resurrected against your will.

[Siosilvar]

I usually use 31 point buy. It's basically the same as 32 but there's no way to have all even scores, and there's not enough points to have a leftover that you can't spend.
My favorite, however, is "give the character stats that make sense." Sadly, it only works with most players, not all.

[Dusk Eclipse]

10 points would be even below average for 1st level commoner who don't even have a name.
15 is the predictable average for 3d6.

I like low-power, but under 20 really is a terrible idea unless you want to play commoners.

I think he is referring to Pathfinder Pointbuy which starts with stats at 10 and AFAIK the costs are different.

[RedWarrior0]

You can always start the game by making a coup the grace against yourself. If it's a high level campaign, you can't be resurrected against your will.

Technically, you can't CdG yourself, since you need to be helpless to be a valid target. The only "autocrit self" rule I've heard of is that one psionic power that makes you attack yourself.

[molten_dragon]

My group usually does 32 point buy. Much less than that we've found makes things really tough for MAD classes. And rolling leads to too much of a discrepancy from player to player. The last campaign we tried it in, we had one player that ended up with the equivalent of like 20 point buy and another that had the equivalent of more than 60.

[big teej]

4d6 drop lowest, simple as that.

[molten_dragon]

My favorite, however, is "give the character stats that make sense." Sadly, it only works with most players, not all.

The problem with this is that I can make a character for whom all 18s makes sense.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think he is referring to Pathfinder Pointbuy which starts with stats at 10 and AFAIK the costs are different.

I don't get why people say 20 PB is the PF equivalent of 32 PB. AFAIK, it's less. I think it's because all stats start at 10 instead of 8, which is worth 12 points.

[Zarin]

Took me forever to get my group to stop rolling and move over to the 25 point buy (PF). Point buys are a little more realistic in my opinion, and it cuts down on cheating which we had unfortunately.

[ajfonty]

I've only used 4d6 and drop the lowest, in both PCing and DMing.

My current Dwarf Cleric/Sovereign Speaker rolled an 18, 13, 13, 12, 10, and 8, which (without counting the 18) would equate to 16 points in the buy system, but personally once I have the magic 18 in Wisdom, I'm more amiable to lower stats for flavor.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've only used 4d6 and drop the lowest, in both PCing and DMing.

My current Dwarf Cleric/Sovereign Speaker rolled an 18, 13, 13, 12, 10, and 8, which would equate to less than 16 points in the buy system, but personally once I have the magic 18 in Wisdom, I'm more amiable to lower stats for flavor.

That works for SAD classes like a Cleric, but try to make a melee character with them. I mean it is possible but I doubt you will be effective.

[Geigan]

I've only used 4d6 and drop the lowest, in both PCing and DMing.

My current Dwarf Cleric/Sovereign Speaker rolled an 18, 13, 13, 12, 10, and 8, which would equate to less than 16 points in the buy system, but personally once I have the magic 18 in Wisdom, I'm more amiable to lower stats for flavor.

What sort of point buy system are you talking about? In standard point buy the 18 alone would have cost you 16 points. In the one I described that would be true, but only because it's a 1:1 ratio for simplicity.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What sort of point buy system are you talking about? In standard point buy the 18 alone would have cost you 16 points. In the one I described that would be true, but only because it's a 1:1 ratio for simplicity.

Uh, he rolled.

[Geigan]

Uh, he rolled.

And he said that they would equate to less than 16 points in a buy system, which doesn't add up as far as I can tell. At least for a standard point buy system that is.

[arguskos]

Uh, he rolled.
Yes, but he then claimed those rolls are worth "less than 16 points in the buy system", to quote him directly. The latter question refers to which buy system this gentleman means precisely.

As to the OP, I do a 4d6b3, reroll all 1s, roll three complete sets of 6 and pick your favorite set to play. It generates strong and rounded, but not overpowering, characters, and leaves some possibility for players to get stuck with a 8 or something, if they really want to. It works well for us, and that's what matters IMO. Personally, I dislike point buy since characters tend to look somewhat similar statistically, and I hate that, but that's a personal distaste, not an issue with the system itself.

[hex0]

I played in a game that had weighted point buy modifiers. Each class has one Primary, two Secondary stats, and three Tertiary stats. (Some classes can choose between two Primary stats, like Fighter)

Primary stats cost 1.25x the normal cost
Secondary stats cost the normal cost
Tertiary stats cost 0.75x the normal cost

So you end up with less dump stats, more well-rounded characters, and feats like Combat Expertise are much less stat intensive.

Thoughts? Anyone do this?

[Dazed&Confused]

I like 34 point buy or big rolls, I love CHA and almost always play pure or multiclassed wizards, so in bad rolls/buys I usually don't get satisfied with my character - I either have to dump a mildly important stat like DEX, or CHA, which I hate dumping.

[hex0]

I like 34 point buy or big rolls, I love CHA and almost always play pure or multiclassed wizards, so in bad rolls/buys I usually don't get satisfied with my character - I either have to dump a mildly important stat like DEX, or CHA, which I hate dumping.

Everyone loves CHA, it just gets little use because it isn't tied to saves, AC, or any of the basics out of the box. Sure it is used in a bunch of skills, but if you have a high enough INT you can just cross-class some social skills.

[ajfonty]

Yes, but he then claimed those rolls are worth "less than 16 points in the buy system", to quote him directly. The latter question refers to which buy system this gentleman means precisely.

As to the OP, I do a 4d6b3, reroll all 1s, roll three complete sets of 6 and pick your favorite set to play. It generates strong and rounded, but not overpowering, characters, and leaves some possibility for players to get stuck with a 8 or something, if they really want to. It works well for us, and that's what matters IMO. Personally, I dislike point buy since characters tend to look somewhat similar statistically, and I hate that, but that's a personal distaste, not an issue with the system itself.

My post was ambiguous. I was referring to the 16 points not counting the 18, but I didn't specify that in the post. Basically, I have the <16 points in the lower stats, which is ok because I have the 18 I wanted/needed.

[Hiro Protagonest]

My post was ambiguous. I was referring to the 16 points not counting the 18, but I didn't specify that in the post. Basically, I have the 16 points in the lower stats, which is ok because I have the 18 I wanted/needed.

...That doesn't make sense, you said in point buy it was 16 points, but it's 32 points. Point buys don't have one stat at 18 and the rest at 8 for a base. 18s do count against your points, no matter how much you argue you should have an 18.

[Reluctance]

I've noticed in these discussions that very few rolling fans care for random distribution of scores. Instead, they tend to strongly tilt the outcomes towards high stats, and that's before you get into the simple fact that people are likely to discard a set with all 8s but not a set with all 18s.

Point Buy, meanwhile has a hidden advantage that makes me even more of a fan. It's easy to make pointbuy stats without someone needing to watch them for verification. It's hard for a person to pull dice shenanigans when there are no dice to roll. You keep generation/build issues from getting too caught up in your table time.

I'd be curious to try some of the placement randomization tricks mentioned here. But as long as rolling still follows a priority system, I don't see much to recommend it over a default array.

[phy]

I have had good luck with letting players pick their stats to have a total modifier adjustment of +6. The only catch is that no stat can have a preracial stat of more than 18. It works well and gives players plenty of flexibility while still maintaining a good balance of power level between the characters.

[ajfonty]

...That doesn't make sense, you said in point buy it was 16 points, but it's 32 points. Point buys don't have one stat at 18 and the rest at 8 for a base. 18s do count against your points, no matter how much you argue you should have an 18.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but 13, 13, 12, 10, and 8 as stats add up to 16 points. 18 would make it 32 points, because the increased cost makes it cost 16 points overall. Not counting the 18, I would have spent 16 points total, which I allude to in my subsequent post.

[navar100]

I've noticed in these discussions that very few rolling fans care for random distribution of scores. Instead, they tend to strongly tilt the outcomes towards high stats, and that's before you get into the simple fact that people are likely to discard a set with all 8s but not a set with all 18s.

Point Buy, meanwhile has a hidden advantage that makes me even more of a fan. It's easy to make pointbuy stats without someone needing to watch them for verification. It's hard for a person to pull dice shenanigans when there are no dice to roll. You keep generation/build issues from getting too caught up in your table time.

I'd be curious to try some of the placement randomization tricks mentioned here. But as long as rolling still follows a priority system, I don't see much to recommend it over a default array.

If you have to watch out for cheating, then you shouldn't be playing with such players in the first place. Dice rolling for stats is irrelevant.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but 13, 13, 12, 10, and 8 as stats add up to 16 points. 18 would make it 32 points, because the increased cost makes it cost 16 points overall. Not counting the 18, I would have spent 16 points total, which I allude to in my subsequent post.

You made it sound like we would consider your character to be "weak" because it only had 16 PB, but you still managed to have fun. That's not the case.

[Seerow]

Personally I like a slightly randomized point buy. Something like 20+4d4 (with an average of 30, min of 24, max of 36, it hits the range that most point buys generally go in).

One of my GMs uses a point buy with 1d2 added to each attribute, capped at 18. This discourages people from buying straight up to an 18 (as it's potentially wasted stats), and can provide a slightly more natural looking character, without a significant amount of randomness to allow for screwing of players.

[sonofzeal]

I prefer pointbuy for three reasons...

1) When rolling, not all distributions fit all characters. PB lets me tailor to my particular concept better.

2) Fairness. If there's a massive disparity in ability scores, that can harm party balance and make it less fun for characters who underperform as a result. Being consigned to subpar performance before you even get to choose race and class is not fun, and knowing your friend beside you just got terrific numbers isn't going to help.

3) Dice hate me. They really really hate me. If I roll, I'll tend to have at least one score at a -3 or -4 penalty, or not a single score above a +1. One of the two. Anything that reduces my dependence on dice is a good thing, imo.

[Seerow]

My group uses either a specific form of point buy or a specific type of random roll, based on whether we have defined character concepts we want to try or whether we want to come up with something off the top of our heads respectively.

Our point buy is not like the standard point buy in that each point just equals 1 ability increase no matter what. We just like the simplicity. Basically your character starts with all 10s and allocates either 20 or 30 points(based on whether we're doing a medium to high power campaign) however you wish with no stat higher than 18 before racial modifiers. It's a high powered method to be sure but it's at least fair, and we prefer it when we want our specific concepts to work.

For the random roll you roll 3d6 36 times putting the results in order from left to right then top to bottom on a 6x6 chart. Pick a row/column/diagonal and take those as your stats in order either front to back or back to front(or sometimes in whatever order you want if the DM is feeling especially generous). As an example I might roll up this chart:
{table]9|13|8|11|8|4
7|11|8|9|8|14
7|15|10|8|10|13
14|10|9|7|10|11
10|9|12|9|11|9
12|14|8|13|6|5
[/table]
I'd probably pick the 2nd column top to bottom and play him as the meatshield of the party, probably a crusader to get some use out of that high charisma at the back there.
Sometimes you get good rolls sometimes you get bad rolls, but we feel this at least gives you options to choose from among your rolls, while still giving you the fun of living with what luck gave you. Half the fun of this method is building with what you're given.

We're a bit oddball when it comes to stat generation.

I actually really like this method after reading it. Though I'd use the normal 4d6 drop lowest rather than 3d6, that's a personal preference. The overall method of generating 36 attributes but taking a specific line of them is great. It's like D&D bingo.

Just to try this out I did a bunch of rolls on an online roller... and rolled absurdly high really frequently. Like didn't get below a 9. Here was my table:


{table]14 | 17 | 16 | 11 | 16 | 13
18 | 9 | 10 | 12 | 12 | 11
14 | 12 | 16 | 13 | 10 | 15
13 | 18 | 15 | 13 | 14 | 9
16 | 15 | 14 | 15 | 12 | 12
9 | 17 | 9 | 11 | 11 | 9[/table]

Appealing arrays from this table are:



18/17/17/15/12/9 (second column)
18/16/14/14/13/9 (first column)
17/16/16/14/13/11 (first row)

On the other hand a couple columns are clear losers. Both diagonals are pretty terrible, and the bottom row has only one good stat. Most of the others are usable, but not quite as nice as the 3 pointed out.


edit: Fixed table.

[jaybird]

Point buy, because it evens things out in the party. First game I ever played in, the Monk had nothing below 16 before racial mods, while the Paladin had nothing over 14. This was also the party where I had a 19 and everything else was 13 or below, while the Sorcerer had a statline comparable to the Monk's. Didn't matter much for me, considering I was playing a Wizard, but the Paladin got screwed pretty hard.

The next game we played, the GM told us to use PB.

[Greenish]

I played in a game that had weighted point buy modifiers. Each class has one Primary, two Secondary stats, and three Tertiary stats. (Some classes can choose between two Primary stats, like Fighter)

Primary stats cost 1.25x the normal cost
Secondary stats cost the normal cost
Tertiary stats cost 0.75x the normal cost

So you end up with less dump stats, more well-rounded characters, and feats like Combat Expertise are much less stat intensive.

Thoughts? Anyone do this?Does that really differ from the standard point-buy with it's diminishing returns as the stat goes higher?

[Yora]

Technically, you can't CdG yourself, since you need to be helpless to be a valid target. The only "autocrit self" rule I've heard of is that one psionic power that makes you attack yourself.
Isn't a willing target always considered helpless?

Even if not, just stab yourself repeatedly. :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

Isn't a willing target always considered helpless?No, unconscious target is always considered willing, but not the other way around. :smallamused:

[Rapidghoul]

I tend to play with DMs that go 4d6b3. A couple ways I like to use is 3d6b2 + 6, so you never get less than 8 and get relatively high rolls, or even 5d4b4 + 2.

I actually have a method I have all my players use when rolling for campaigns I DM so that no one feels unfairly gimped by their rolls without relying on a point buy system:

You roll 4d6b3 three times, rerolling any result less than 9. You then subtract these rolls from 27 (or any set number really) to get your other three stats.
For example, if you roll an 9 for one of your stats, you get an 18 for one of the others. If you roll a 13, you get a 14 as well.
That way everyone is guaranteed to get a total modifier of +9 before racial adjustments. Rolling low doesn't penalize you, since you get a high stat as well.
Depending on the power level you're playing, you can adjust the set number up or down. You can also just roll 3d6 the same way. In an upcoming campaign with more experienced players, I'm adjusting it by tier/MAD of the class they pick (wizards and clerics get 26, bards and rogues get 27, monks get 28 (or even 29)).

[MukkTB]

Point buy. 25 pts PF and 32 pts 3.5. I'd be happy with pretty much any number of points though.

Rolling has a complex set of problems that get really hairy. Point buy on the other hand is obviously fair.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't favor using dice for any part of character development. I generally use 32 point buy, and also (average + ½) on each hit die after first level. (That averages the same as if you rolled but rerolled all 1s.)

[Chronos]

One method I've pondered but never actually tried (and this would probably require a computer to be practical, but that's no big deal):

Roll up, say, 20 characters, each with random race and 3d6 in order for stats. Then look at the list, and pick out one. The other 19 are presumed to be folks that decided to just stay home on the farm instead of going adventuring, and the proportion of different races is whatever the DM decides he wants for the demographics of his world (thus, for instance, if it's a world where humans are all over the place but elves are rare, the same will probably end up happening for the PCs). It also lets the heroes be above-average, for close to the same reason you'd expect them to be: Only above-average folks will tend to decide to go adventuring.

Alternately, you could have the party pool all of their random rolls, so that if one set has stats both for a great fighter and a great wizard, you don't have to let one go to waste. That just means that that village happened to have two people who had what it takes to save the world, and some other village happened not to have any.

[Geigan]

I actually really like this method after reading it. Though I'd use the normal 4d6 drop lowest rather than 3d6, that's a personal preference. The overall method of generating 36 attributes but taking a specific line of them is great. It's like D&D bingo.

Just to try this out I did a bunch of rolls on an online roller... and rolled absurdly high really frequently. Like didn't get below a 9. Here was my table:


{table]14 | 17 | 16 | 11 | 16 | 13
18 | 9 | 10 | 12 | 12 | 11
14 | 12 | 16 | 13 | 10 | 15
13 | 18 | 15 | 13 | 14 | 9
16 | 15 | 14 | 15 | 12 | 12
9 | 17 | 9 | 11 | 11 | 9[/table]

Appealing arrays from this table are:



18/17/17/15/12/9 (second column)
18/16/14/14/13/9 (first column)
17/16/16/14/13/11 (first row)

On the other hand a couple columns are clear losers. Both diagonals are pretty terrible, and the bottom row has only one good stat. Most of the others are usable, but not quite as nice as the 3 pointed out.


edit: Fixed table.

We like the bingo aspect of it ourselves. :smallbiggrin:

We prefer 3d6 because we sort of see it as our lower power variant, and our dice hate us when it comes to ability scores. Seeing what you get and then building with it is the fun thing about it without having as many terrible discrepancies, except when you roll all 10 or below 36 times in a row or all +2 positives or higher 36 times in a row. I've played characters with barely above average stats with the highest being 12s but no negatives, and I've also played with all negatives or 10s in everything but charisma which was an 18. Gives the fun of playing with really odd distributions without that feeling that you were stuck with them since you got to be the one to choose it even if it was a limited choice.

[Tamer Leon]

Our group tends to play at very high power levels, and our campaigns have been significantly more 'epic' in focus.

We give characters 12 points of modifier to distribute, as they please. Three stats must be even, and the other three odd, and no stat can be over 18 or under 8 before racial modifiers.

It's very high-power, on the one hand, but on the other, we tend to deal with some very nasty threats in our campaigns, and those high stats are necessary.