OOTS #829 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[gooddragon1]

Will he kill her then?

[Eisenfavl]

Not with these few spells. He is still all out of power at the moment.

Going to have to surrender the phylactery to prevent a fight?

Edit: By which I mean that this is more than enough to convince xykon to do something, but a phylactery dodge may well prevent it. Or not, considering that just puts them closer to performing the ritual.

[Nix Nihila]

Well, this is exciting.

[Curious]

Soooo. . . The secret is that he is going to summon the Snarl, rather than contain it? I'm not sure I get it.

[Gift Jeraff]

Oh, crap. :smalleek:

In case anyone's curious: all the ritual does is loosen a Gate and allow the Dark One to plane shift it--it can't even be moved across the Prime Material Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686931&postcount=83).

[legomaster00156]

Well, well, very clever, Ms. Tic Theurge. :smalltongue:

[bengator]

Is this a reference to the books? I dont get it . . .

[Seerow]

Easy counter-bluff "All of the Enchantment part of the ritual is in the Divine half. You just admitted you only see half the ritual, why would you assume that my half would use the same type of magic as the arcane half? Are you stupid?"

And then hope she rolls for crap on sense motive.

[Blisstake]

Well that's something new...

I wonder if this is it for Tsukiko. Redcloak can't be letting that info get to Xykon.

[legomaster00156]

Well that's something new...

I wonder if this is it for Tsukiko. Redcloak can't be letting that info get to Xykon.
Well, she is likely a spell level or two behind him, but if it goes down to a war of attrition, she would have more spells per day even if Redcloak hadn't been in a recent fight against the Resistance. I suspect he's fairly low on spells, so I'm not sure he'd risk it. What's more, Word of Recall wouldn't save him in an emergency, since they are in his study.

[RaggedAngel]

Redcloak's response, if he knows what he's doing: "Harm. Quickened Inflict Light Wounds." :smallcool:

That said, if this turns into a fight he's outnumbered; he can Rebuke her undead, but that would leave him open to Tsukiko. The best option here is to kill her in a single turn, before any of her minions can start draining his levels. If she has Death Ward up (and it's fairly likely she does) he's going to have a hard time of this fight.

And this will be a fight; if Xykon learns that the ritual won't let him control the Snarl, Team Evil will turn into one giant bloodbath.

[QuakeIV]

I think she is
betting way too much on redcloak being intimidated.

She's probably going to **** her pants when she realises he is just going to kill her, he may not even need to kill her, just threaten her.

Also, after three tries the lurker has emerged from the darkness. e: by that i mean the kaptcha filters out humans.

[QuakeIV]

Okay seriously Redcloak just disintegrate the ***** already.

Full agreement here.

[Debatra]

Is this a reference to the books? I dont get it . . .

Start of Darkness, pg 45-47.

[AgentofOdd]

Easy counter-bluff "All of the Enchantment part of the ritual is in the Divine half. You just admitted you only see half the ritual, why would you assume that my half would use the same type of magic as the arcane half? Are you stupid?"Not to mention, the ritual in question isn't supposed to effect the Snarl, but the Gate. Easy to say that a ritual to modify a gate should use concepts from that school of magic since that is of course what they'll be doing. A tidbit that Redcloak could give the Theurge to possibly plant a seed of doubt on how much Xykon trusts her with information.

[Circle of Life]

Pity Redcloak doesn't have any ninths left. Things might actually get messy here.

[Ellen]

But, as Tsukiko is one of those characters with a radically fluctuating IQ (brilliant one moment, convinced Xykon loves her the next, for example), she may be about to tell RC what she's deduced about what he's really up to - and get it all wrong in a way RC can use.

[Lord Raziere]

:smallamused:

Well, well, well.

This is quite interesting….

[Argok]

So it looks like they don't know he got it back. So she has to hunt down the resistance on what is now a fool's errand.

[Holy_Knight]

But, as Tsukiko is one of those characters with a radically fluctuating IQ (brilliant one moment, convinced Xykon loves her the next, for example), she may be about to tell RC what she's deduced about what he's really up to - and get it all wrong in a way RC can use.

Yeah--we can't be sure that what she suspects the ritual does is actually what it does. Depending on what she's thinking, Redcloak might still be able to talk his way out of this or turn the situation to his advantage.

[Pheldagriff]

I don't think it does what everyone thinks it does.

loved that reference

[Enlong]

Is this a reference to the books? I dont get it . . .

From day 1, Redcloak has told Xykon that the ritual would control the Snarl, and give them command over it. Xykon wants to use the power of the Snarl to basically intimidate his way into ruling the world.

When he became a Lich, and lost his sense of taste, the reason Redcloak gave him for not killing him then and there was that if he died, Xykon would never be able to complete the ritual and control the Snarl. "You will have gone through all of this for nothing."

The ritual was never meant to control the Snarl. "Control" is a wholly alien concept to the thing. All it's meant to do is control the location of its portal. Redcloak intends to put it in the realm of the gods, and use that to give teh Dark One leverage over them.

In other words, Xykon really did go through all this for nothing.

If Xykon learns the truth, there is no way in Hell that Xykon will let Redcloak live. Heck, who knows just what he'll do if he finds out? We've seen small, very small glimpses of him truly angry. They are never pretty.

[PhantomFox]

I agree. This can be easily deflected... into hilarity or manipulation depending on how good he is at it.

[SpaceBadger]

Awesomeness, and a reward for staying up late tonight! Thanks, Giant.

[Enlong]

Easy counter-bluff "All of the Enchantment part of the ritual is in the Divine half. You just admitted you only see half the ritual, why would you assume that my half would use the same type of magic as the arcane half? Are you stupid?"

And then hope she rolls for crap on sense motive.

Except, she said that she figured out what was and wasn't in it by realizing she was only looking at half of each effect.

She knows that there isn't even a single shred of Enchantment or Transmutation in the ritual, for the Divine half of it to complete.

[cc_kizz]

Ooo. This is getting good. But where is the name "Wrong-Eye" leading?

[with an e]

...So much for the smart part, Tsukiko. I didn't think the speculation about
her impending death is going to be true, but now that she blabbed about figuring out the ritual, I'm not sure what else RC would do.

[fibonacciseries]

Looks like the cat's out of the bag now.
It looks like someone will be killed soon DUN DUN DUN

[Enlong]

Ooo. This is getting good. But where is the name "Wrong-Eye" leading?

It appears that she knows the story behind Redcloak's brother, who Xykon always referred to as "Right-Eye".

[TheSummoner]

Ooo. This is getting good. But where is the name "Wrong-Eye" leading?

"Wrong-Eye" both a joke about Redcloak losing his eye and a reference to Redcloak's brother, "Right-Eye" (who was missing his left eye)

Long story short, Redcloak killed his own brother. Right-Eye had a plan to kill Xykon. Had it worked, everything Redcloak had sacrificed and gone through would've been (in his mind), all for nothing.


It appears that she knows the story behind Redcloak's brother, who Xykon always referred to as "Right-Eye".

Actually, she doesn't. Right after the prison breakout, she called him that. When a wight asked her what it meant, she said she had no clue, but Xykon said to call him it if he gave her attitude.

[Gift Jeraff]

It appears that she knows the story behind Redcloak's brother, who Xykon always referred to as "Right-Eye".Actually, she doesn't know what it means. Xykon told her to call him that to keep him in line. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html)

[Enlong]

Oh yeah. Pfft. My bad.

[with an e]

It appears that she knows the story behind Redcloak's brother, who Xykon always referred to as "Right-Eye".
No, Xykon just told her to call RC that to intimidate him. [708] (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) He didn't explain the meaning behind it. It does, however, refer to Right-Eye.

[Whiffet]

Oh boy... this could be bad.

I'll think about it after I wake up, though. I don't know why, but I had this feeling that I shouldn't go to bed yet. Now I saw the new comic and I feel that I may sleep. Is it possible that I have an OOTS-sense?

[ss49]

I do not see how Redcloak can allow Tsukiko to live, now. No matter what she is holding back (her lawyer holding a note to give Xykon if he doesn't hear from her) or what she has in mind to dicker with Redcloak, he can't chance Xykon learning this.

[skaddix]

Haha it like G.I. Joe Cobra Civil War. OOTS Team Evil Civil War.

[silvadel]

Redcloak never should have said the "Only if the person is a priest of the dark one" line. If he could have tricked Tsukiko into wearing the mantle, she would probably get a lobotomy as opposed to ritual instructions.

You win -- here, let me put the mantle on you so you can understand the divine half --> divine wrath... I lied.

---

Yep the dire-were-cat is out in the open...

[Steward]

I guess this comic kind of exemplifies the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer. Xykon can use magic, but he doesn't really understand it the way Tsukiko or Eugene or Vaarsuvius do.

[silvadel]

I guess this comic kind of exemplifies the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer. Xykon can use magic, but he doesn't really understand it the way Tsukiko or Eugene or Vaarsuvius do.

Actually it is more that Tsukiko was put onto the track that that is half of a conjoined spell and she has sufficient knowledge of both spheres.... Plus she probably rolled plot on her spellcraft check.

I wonder how she would do plane-shifted to the dark one's abode.

[skaddix]

I guess this comic kind of exemplifies the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer. Xykon can use magic, but he doesn't really understand it the way Tsukiko or Eugene or Vaarsuvius do.

Makes sense he never has to study so the mechanics are not important to him only the results.

Gotta Wonder what Redcloak is thinking right now. Between a rock and a hard place.

[Whiffet]

One thought before bed:

We're starting to really get some SoD stuff in the main comic. I mean stuff besides quick references, stuff that really affects the plot. Do you think there will be a moment to explain anything from SoD in the next few strips so the people who didn't read it will understand what's going on? Obviously not everything, but will the main comic clarify what the ritual does soon? Maybe even explain "Wrong-Eye"?

Or am I just rambling because I'm too tired?

[Subzero008]

Crap. If Tsukiko already deduced this before RC came in, and gave word of it to Xykon somehow, Redcloak is completely screwed.

The cat's out of the bag now, and I doubt RC could silence Tsukiko and leave without Xykon noticing. Maybe he would hold Gobbotopia hostage to force his cooperation.

Also, I like smug RC's look, at panel 7.

[skaddix]

Crap. If Tsukiko already deduced this before RC came in, and gave word of it to Xykon somehow, Redcloak is completely screwed.

The cat's out of the bag now, and I doubt RC could silence Tsukiko and leave without Xykon noticing. Maybe he would hold Gobbotopia hostage to force his cooperation.

Also, I like smug RC's look, at panel 7.

Xykon would probably nuke Gobbotopia then torture the answers out of Redcloak.

[Enlong]

Gobbtopia nothing, I do believe that the Prime Material Plane would very swiftly find itself goblinless.

[factotum]

You win -- here, let me put the mantle on you so you can understand the divine half --> divine wrath... I lied.


That's assuming he can actually take the thing off--he's very old for a goblin, he might shrivel up and die if he removes the Mantle!

Anyway, I'm with those who think that Redcloak can't let Tsukiko go free with this sort of information, but on the other hand, Xykon is likely to notice if she disappears, considering he's given her the task of understanding the ritual. Difficult to see how Redcloak can come out of this on top.

[Lycan 01]

Ooooh snap. :smalleek:

Man, the last couple weeks have been amazing! Lots of updates really fast, and each one entertaining and full of delicious plot twists! So awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[B. Dandelion]

I'm trying to figure out what is the merit in it for her to openly confront him about it. Could it be that she wants him to attack (it would pretty effectively incriminate him)? Is Xykon just outside the hallway?

I mean, it could be that she's just flush with pride and confidence, but...

[Narren]

Any thoughts/random speculation about who the old goblin is?

[skaddix]

I'm trying to figure out what is the merit in it for her to openly confront him about it. Could it be that she wants him to attack (it would pretty effectively incriminate him)? Is Xykon just outside the hallway?

I mean, it could be that she's just flush with pride and confidence, but...

She would be pretty dumb not to inform Xykon in advance.

[Anarion]

One thought before bed:

We're starting to really get some SoD stuff in the main comic. I mean stuff besides quick references, stuff that really affects the plot. Do you think there will be a moment to explain anything from SoD in the next few strips so the people who didn't read it will understand what's going on? Obviously not everything, but will the main comic clarify what the ritual does soon? Maybe even explain "Wrong-Eye"?

Or am I just rambling because I'm too tired?

No, I don't think there will ever be a SoD exposition page. What will happen is that certain revelations or plot twists will be less than surprising for people that have read SoD, but they will flow naturally during the main comic. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Giant originally came up with Tsukiko so that team evil would have a new member who needs an explanation of everything they're planning (just like he used MitD to explain Serini's journal when Redcloak and Xykon already knew about it).




I think Redcloak could still be fine if he keeps a level head though. In fact, he could probably even get by Tsukiko's sense motive by telling the truth, only not all of it. For example, here's a statement that contains no lie, so far as we know from the main comic and SoD (spoilers obviously)
The spell is conjuration because it doesn't control the snarl directly, rather it summons a gate that will allow the snarl to reach into whatever location the gate is summoned at. If a gate materialized in the throne room of an enemy nation, the snarl could reach out and erase everyone there from existence.

[Icedaemon]

He said please. Why would he do such a thing? Of course it all escalates now.

[BriarHobbit]

Wow! This is exciting. I don't believe that it will end in violence. Red Cloak burned a lot of spells smashing the Resistance. No need to take stupid risks. It would have been a different story if she knew about him holding the phylactery.

[WhamBamSam]

So it looks like Redcloak won't have the luxury of waiting a day to replenish spells before killing Tsukiko. Still, he might have a few 8ths/9ths left and should be able to just drop her with Harm/Quickened Inflict anyway. After curb stomping her he stabilizes her so that her soul can't reach the safety of the afterlife and throws her into the rift.

[Fitzclowningham]

I just can't see Xykon extorting the gods as a plot point for OotS, which is pretty much the only way he could get anything out of the ritual (assuming it isn't hard-coded to put The Dark One in control). Guess I gotta go with RC kills Tsukiko. I'm gonna guess:

RC kills Tsukiko, Xykon unexpectedly returns, and he raises her as undead, 10 times more evil than before, and more powerful.

[rewinn]

Pretty cool how the different schools of magic have just graduated from an excuse for V not having Teleport ... into a plot point!

Whether or not RC and Tsukiko battle openly now, it would seem to be only a matter of time before
...Tsukiko betrays RC to X, and RC must flee for his life. Where can he go for help? Who else wants to destroy X and has a wizard capable of executing the ritual afterwards?
RC doesn't know OOTS still exists or that IFCC has a lease on V, but he has a good idea where an Epic-level Illusionist lives.

Or maybe RC just kills Tsukiko and hides the body; maybe in the rush to get on with it, X will forget that he gave her the Ritual to decode and assumes Black Squadron is lost in the huge pile of rubble that used to be a mountain. That might seem to be awfully conveeeenient to X, who IIRC has a lich bonus to his Sense Motive check on top of his personal paranoia.

[mp122984]

I just can't see Xykon extorting the gods as a plot point for OotS, which is pretty much the only way he could get anything out of the ritual (assuming it isn't hard-coded to put The Dark One in control). Guess I gotta go with RC kills Tsukiko. I'm gonna guess:

RC kills Tsukiko, Xykon unexpectedly returns, and he raises her as undead, 10 times more evil than before, and more powerful.

I could see Xykon trying to just kill the gods with the Snarl outright, maybe put himself in charge or something like that afterwards. And yeah, something has got to give with Redcloak - assuming that Xykon isn't invisible in the room already.

[Warren Dew]

I keep liking Tsukiko more and more. Even the teenage crush is cute.

[deuxhero]

Doesn't Summon Monster give control over the summon?

[fan4battle]

Oh, it's ON now!

I need to say I'm so hooked on the comic, I'm checking for new updates in unhealthy frequence.

[fruityjanitor]

Exciting strip! I'm betting that these two will start duking it out in the next page or two. I won't be too surprised if it goes a different direction though...

From what we know about Tsukiko, it seems like at some point she is going to die and become an undead. So I could definitely see her dying now and becoming undead. Perhaps Xykon raises her, or perhaps RC raises her but does it an a way where he doesn't think she can cause trouble for him (such as raising her with very low intelligence). Of course, given how common undeath is among Team Evil, you'd think he would dispose of her body completely somehow (such as Disintegration), so I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens.

Anyway. I'm looking forward to the next strip! It's awesome how there are so many well-developed characters in the comic that we can be so excited for the next strip even when we know it is only going to be about the bad guys.

[Aldrakan]

Well this is interesting.
Obviously, the first thing is that Redcloak cannot possibly allow her to tell Xykon about this. The clearest way to silence her would be to kill her.

On the other hand, if he tries now Redcloak has used a number of his best spells already today, and if she rolls well she might be able to escape,. Also given her...proclivities it seems possible that she's gained access to some form of protection from negative energy that could protect her (she didn't last time she fought the Resistance, so it's far from certain). And if he does succeed, Xykon will notice she's gone.

I really doubt he could brush off killing her like when he tried to before - he's rarely been lower in Xykon's graces, while she's been given more and more responsibility. The fact that he gave her the ritual is evidence that he has some trust in her ability and loyalty. It also indicates that Xykon distrusts RC and/or is looking for a way to replace him. Letting Xykon know he killed her would probably have disastrous consequences.

He could try and make it look like the Resistance did it. However, he doesn't know where she was last, if she's spoken to Xykon, etc. There might be people who knows she's here. It's a significant risk, but given the definite catastrophe of letting her tell Xykon, killing her might still be the safest option.
On the other hand, attacking her outright, in Xykon's castle, with spells missing, without a plan or any real information, with her minions there, and then lying to Xykon's face about what happened would be a bold if not reckless action, not much in RC's character. I'd say it depends how much he's changed since we last saw him, and whether he can think of anything else to stop her.
I feel like his preferred method would be to somehow convince her not to say anything, but I can't say I can think of anything he could tell her.

Or, as mentioned, Tsukiko could use her personal brand of "undead are nice" logic to come to some conclusion that removes the danger.

[Crod]

Ouch. Divine magic is very little about enchantments and she knows that, her whole class is about knowing magic. At best divine magic can be said to be slightly transmutic, so I doubt RC can pull it off by trying to bluff her into thinking that the divine half has all the enchantments/transmutation stuff in it.

Do we know which domain RC belongs to? He might have bluff but she has sense motive for sure.

Also, Tsukiko might not be the sharpest nut but she will not have broken into his study without buffing up first, so taking her on now when RC is low on spells sounds like a very dangerous route.

[Mojique]

if Xykon learns that the ritual won't let him control the Snarl
... he will forget it anyway.

[Heksefatter]

*Cough* The friendly rivalry in Team Evil is getting...friendlier.

[Subzero008]

assuming that Xykon isn't invisible in the room already.

That would be a Diabolus ex Machina, which isn't Giant's style.
Where is Xykon, anyway?

[ti'esar]

Well, this certainly looks bad for Redcloak. I guess I'm going to have to eat my words from last time that this wouldn't turn nasty.

...Mmm, tasty.


Where is Xykon, anyway?

Good question. I'm hoping that one day soon we're going to find out exactly where he goes when he's off on these long trips.

[The MunchKING]

But, as Tsukiko is one of those characters with a radically fluctuating IQ (brilliant one moment, convinced Xykon loves her the next, for example), she may be about to tell RC what she's deduced about what he's really up to - and get it all wrong in a way RC can use.

That's not low IQ, love hits an entirely different Organ from the brain. :smalltongue:

[Sunken Valley]

hold on, wasn't 829 supposed to be double length? Or is 830 going to do that now?

[skaddix]

Well, this certainly looks bad for Redcloak. I guess I'm going to have to eat my words from last time that this wouldn't turn nasty.

...Mmm, tasty.



Good question. I'm hoping that one day soon we're going to find out exactly where he goes when he's off on these long trips.

Well we know sometimes he goes to the Oracle who is always gone when he gets there.

[The MunchKING]

I wonder how she would do plane-shifted to the dark one's abode.

The Army could probably hand;e her without the Dark One even needing to care.

[Draz74]

Huh. For a while, before you guys reminded me about the Start of Darkness stuff, I was thinking Tsukiko had started to figure out that, as V concluded (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), "Perhaps we do not know everything we ought to regarding" the Snarl. You know, all the planet-within-the-planet stuff and so on.

Quick, somebody with access to Start of Darkness, grow this into an epileptic tree that actually fits with all the data we have! Um, like ... maybe The Dark One lost someone he cared about inside the Snarl, so he came up with a fake ritual for his priests, which they thought would give them ultimate power, but actually it just Conjures things that the Snarl has eaten back out into the world? :smallredface:

[drebb]

I don't think it does what everyone thinks it does.

loved that reference
Damn it, I've heard that somewhere. What is that a reference to?

[The MunchKING]

Damn it, I've heard that somewhere. What is that a reference to?

Princess Bride.

You didn't know that?? INCONCIEVABLE!!

[Warren Dew]

Obviously, the first thing is that Redcloak cannot possibly allow her to tell Xykon about this.
Why not? The spell is still useful to Xykon. He could just blackmail the gods for something different from what Redcloak would have.

[ti'esar]

Well we know sometimes he goes to the Oracle who is always gone when he gets there.

But is that all there is to it? I don't think so.

[RMS Oceanic]

Why not? The spell is still useful to Xykon. He could just blackmail the gods for something different from what Redcloak would have.

(SoD)
No he couldn't. The way it was described, the ritual grants control directly to the Dark One, not whoever performs the ritual. Now whether or not Tsukiko could figure out how to alter the ritual if she had access to the whole thing is a different matter...

Things are pretty much at a head now. Short of spells like BoVD's Mind rape, it looks like only two out of these three people will be travelling to Girard's gate.

[kabbor]

I wonder if there's a Chekhov in Celia's 'booty talisman'. It was broken by energy, and weak against electricity. If Redcloak and Tsukiko get into a spelling match, could the phylactery take a hit and become damaged? Maybe without anyone knowing? Haley didn't know when Celia's was damaged.

Thoughts?

[King of Nowhere]

bad news for redcloak. if xykon discovers the ritual is worthless to him, he'll be an enemy to redcloak, and redcloak isn't powerful enough. Maybe he should kill tsukiko rigth now, but it's very risky, so he should not try. But what now?

[skaddix]

I wonder if there's a Chekhov in Celia's 'booty talisman'. It was broken by energy, and weak against electricity. If Redcloak and Tsukiko get into a spelling match, could the phylactery take a hit and become damaged? Maybe without anyone knowing? Haley didn't know when Celia's was damaged.

Thoughts?

doubtful its got the most powerful magical defenses possible according to xykon.

redcloak is a bad spot

[Ancalagon]

Tsukiko just begged to get "dealt with" in some way.

I can imagine the next strip looks like this:

Tsukiko: "Hehe, Redcloak, now tell me you sucker!"
Redcloak reaches for his holy symbol. "Control Undead! Drain her!"
Wights: "Yes, Master Redcloak!"

Funny. :)

Really, what did Tsukiko think? Redcloak is now forced to do something, he cannot let her talk to Xykon about that (unless... she already has but she does not seem that way).

The very interesting question is: Will Xykon cast a ritual he does not know what it does? I bet he won't, especially not if it comes from Redcloak!

[slayerx]

Tsukiko's life span is looking quite short... Frankly i REALLY hope she is going somewhere with this, because revealing to redcloak that she knows too much would be really, really stupid. She would have to have something to gain here that could not be gained from just going straight to Xykon.


Also, i feel like this page may have revealed a bit more to what Redcloak is up to with Xykon's thingy as it seems fairly certain he IS trying to hide it from Xykon. Tsukiko already knows that it was stolen by the resistance, meaning that redcloak WANTS xykon to think that the resistance has it instead of it still being lost in the city. The reason Redcloak had to kill his spy was because he needed to keep the demise of the resistance a secret (something he might not have trusted his spy to keep secret). He needs Xykon to believe that the resistance still functions so that he can maintain the ruse that they still has his thing.

[Shatteredtower]

That said, if this turns into a fight he's outnumbered; he can Rebuke her undead, but that would leave him open to Tsukiko.

Rebuke nothing -- his level is high enough to take control of them. (We only see three.) Even if she has death ward active (which would be vital, since a mystic theurge is more vulnerable to level loss than a cleric, even if both are equal in level), this is Tsukiko. Fighting her children would not help her mental state at all, and we've seen how poorly an unhinged caster can perform in V vs. Xykon.
If Redcloak does kill her... we already know he's capable of creating and controlling a hueceva, an undead creature with a decreased Intelligence score and the level-based powers it had in life. If anyone Xykon knew would be willing to take the post-terminal plunge on a whim, it would be Tsukiko. It might not be that hard to deceive him here, even if Redcloak's Charisma [s]be[/b] is on par with Durkon's.

I doubt any of this will come to pass, but I'll include spoiler tags out of respect for the Giant's preferences anyway.

[RMS Oceanic]

There are several ways this could play out:

- Redcloak successfully bluffs or diplomacises (don't care it's not a word) to Tsukiko about the nature of the ritual, and she drops the subject. I don't see this happening.
- Tsukiko promises not to tell Xykon in exchange for some sort of extortion, like a regular supply of research specimens. Also pretty unlikely, as I think she'd love to show her use to Xykon by exposing Redcloak's deception, but not impossible.
- Tsukiko keeps quiet because she likes to see Redcloak squirm. Unlikely but possible.
- Redcloak magically controls Tsukiko into keeping quiet. As a Cleric his options here are limited. The only spell I can think of from sources we've seen Redcloak use before would be the aforementioned Mind Rape.
- Redcloak attacks Tsukiko to silence her. I'll not speculate as to the outcome, as there's too much we don't know at this point, but it would be a point of no return.
- Tsukiko tells Xykon. If this happens, all bets are off.

Right now I think the last three are the most likely. The ball is in Redcloak's court, and what happens in 830 will depend on his action or inaction.

[Emulgator]

I wonder if Tsukiko prepared some kind of spell that gives information about ritual "secret" to Xykon, in case she was killed. Guess we're gonna find out soon.

[Ancalagon]

Going beyond "Redcloak kills Tsukiko": If he turns her into an undead, the excuse towards Xykon "She asked me for this!!!" does not seem that unbelieveable. :smallbiggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

Oh wait, I misremembered: Mindrape isn't a Cleric spell, so I think magically compelling Tsukiko's silence is not an option.

[TheBST]

So...why is Tsukiko telling Redcloak this? Either she's not aware of the implications of only being able to summon or move the Snarl, or she actually believes Xykon would give a damn if Redcloak tried to kill her.

Girl's a moron.

[Ancalagon]

I think she is a teenager carried away on a powertrip and as such not noticing she is about to stumble down a stair, an accident which will leave her paralyzed or dead.

[skaddix]

So...why is Tsukiko telling Redcloak this? Either she's not aware of the implications of only being able to summon or move the Snarl, or she actually believes Xykon would give a damn if Redcloak tried to kill her.

Girl's a moron.

actually at this point Xykon would care not that he really gives a damn about her but RC offing her tells him she found out something important. RC is at an all time low of trust.

[TheBST]

actually at this point Xykon would care not that he really gives a damn about her but RC offing her tells him she found out something important. RC is at an all time low of trust.

Fair point, but it's still a safer bet to kill her now and try to talk his way out of it with Xykon. Say the elves brought another supermage with them and though RC managed to wipe them out- see the earthquake over there?- Tsukiko bit the dust in the process. 'Her body's in smithereens under a hundred tons of earth and concrete. Do you know True Resurrection 'cos I don't.'

Also, RC could easily bluff his way out of this current situation, anyway: 'Yeah, there's no Enchantment in the spell- you can't mind-control something that doesn't have a mind. The Snarl's like a force of pure destruction- we control it by summoning its power on anyone who gives us any lip- aiming it like a weapon rather than giving it orders. Now get out of my room and get a sensible haircut'. You know, if Rich really wants to keep Tsukiko alive.

[Azukar]

So... Who was that hobgoblin guy? Not the janitor, anyway.

[Animidest]

Oh boy, this is tense! I can't wait for the next one! I have no idea what will happen next, even though you all seem to know. This is going to be great.

[skaddix]

Fair point, but it's still a safer bet to kill her now and try to talk his way out of it with Xykon. Say the elves brought another supermage with them and though RC managed to wipe them out- see the earthquake over there?- Tsukiko bit the dust in the process. 'Her body's in smithereens under a hundred tons of earth and concrete. Do you know True Resurrection 'cos I don't.'

Also, RC could easily bluff his way out of this current situation, anyway: 'Yeah, there's no Enchantment in the spell- you can't mind-control something that doesn't have a mind. The Snarl's like a force of pure destruction- we control it by summoning its power on anyone who gives us any lip- aiming it like a weapon rather than giving it orders. Now get out of my room and get a sensible haircut'. You know, if Rich really wants to keep Tsukiko alive.


RC is a level 17 Cleric and he does not know True Resurrection?

Still Bluff might be the safest move right now. Certainly he can spin the Conjuration since Tsukiko does not have the whole thing.

I was expecting this team to fall apart at the gate not just before.

[Nekocon]

Oh wait, I misremembered: Mindrape isn't a Cleric spell, so I think magically compelling Tsukiko's silence is not an option.

Well, sincce we have seen he's capable of casting spells from BoVD he could always cast "Forbidden speech".

However I'll be one to enjoy Tsukiko's death.

[Edhelras]

Suddenly, I think Redcloak looks old....

[drebb]

Princess Bride.

You didn't know that?? INCONCIEVABLE!!
Yeeeeeah, it occured to me a little while later that it looked like a mashed Princess Brideism.

[factotum]

hold on, wasn't 829 supposed to be double length? Or is 830 going to do that now?

The material in #828 and #829 was supposed to be a double-length strip, but the Giant decided there was too much to fit, so the first half got expanded to a page and a half for #828 and the second half got split off into a separate strip (#829). I don't think #829 was ever intended to be a page and a half, though, because then there would have been no need for the Giant to speculate about what he plans to put into that blank half-page in the book!


RC is a level 17 Cleric and he does not know True Resurrection?

Of course he knows it, but his comment in strip #826 implies he's only recently turned level 17, and the critical thing here is that XYKON presumably doesn't know Redcloak can now cast True Resurrection. However, regular ol' Resurrection would work to restore someone who's been crushed under a load of rocks provided you could get some small part of the body out, so it's still not a perfect get-out-of-resurrecting-Tsukiko clause.

[Burner28]

Dun Dun Dun!

[Geddoe]

Man, as much as I hope Redcloak gets his comeuppance, we all know that there is no way she would actually take him out from a story perspective. She could be full up on spells and he could be out with no buffs up or rebukes, and he would just roll plot on all needed rolls to take her out.

[Subzero008]

RC is a level 17 Cleric and he does not know True Resurrection?

Wouldn't he resurrect a certain family member if he could?

[Spacewolf]

Wouldn't he resurrect a certain family member if he could?

no it is impossible for him not to know it as he's not a wizard hes a cleric they get access to all their spells they just have to prepare them they dont have to write them down or anything, so unless his family member shows up at the door or something apparently no he wouldnt

[Kish]

Wouldn't he resurrect a certain family member if he could?
No. Having True Resurrection changes very little as far as his brother is concerned. He could have resurrected him right after killing him. Xykon explained why he wouldn't, and never will unless he fundamentally changes.

[Subzero008]

Well this is interesting.
Obviously, the first thing is that Redcloak cannot possibly allow her to tell Xykon about this. The clearest way to silence her would be to kill her.

Perhaps he could make some kind of BS to fool Xykon, but I doubt it.

[QUOTE=Aldrakan;12575174]On the other hand, if he tries now Redcloak has used a number of his best spells already today, and if she rolls well she might be able to escape,. Also given her...proclivities it seems possible that she's gained access to some form of protection from negative energy that could protect her (she didn't last time she fought the Resistance, so it's far from certain). And if he does succeed, Xykon will notice she's gone.

Xykon, depending on how long it would take him to come back, would give RC some time to either fortify/defend the city, leave, or cover up Tsukiko's "disappearance".


I really doubt he could brush off killing her like when he tried to before - he's rarely been lower in Xykon's graces, while she's been given more and more responsibility. The fact that he gave her the ritual is evidence that he has some trust in her ability and loyalty. It also indicates that Xykon distrusts RC and/or is looking for a way to replace him. Letting Xykon know he killed her would probably have disastrous consequences.

I really do hope that this is the point in the story where RC becomes his faction, separate from Team Evil.


He could try and make it look like the Resistance did it. However, he doesn't know where she was last, if she's spoken to Xykon, etc. There might be people who knows she's here. It's a significant risk, but given the definite catastrophe of letting her tell Xykon, killing her might still be the safest option.

"Safe" being a poor choice in words...
Also, he could have some scrolls left, aka some minions of his own(I'm hoping for a lead elemental).


On the other hand, attacking her outright, in Xykon's castle, with spells missing, without a plan or any real information, with her minions there, and then lying to Xykon's face about what happened would be a bold if not reckless action, not much in RC's character. I'd say it depends how much he's changed since we last saw him, and whether he can think of anything else to stop her.
I feel like his preferred method would be to somehow convince her not to say anything, but I can't say I can think of anything he could tell her.

Or, as mentioned, Tsukiko could use her personal brand of "undead are nice" logic to come to some conclusion that removes the danger.

He could tell her that Xykon needs her help in some far off corner of the world. As soon as she hears the words "Xykon needs..."(ick) she'll be stupid again.

[Crod]

So...why is Tsukiko telling Redcloak this? Either she's not aware of the implications of only being able to summon or move the Snarl, or she actually believes Xykon would give a damn if Redcloak tried to kill her.

Girl's a moron.

She is naive for sure, but she wouldn't have gotten that far in life if she was stupid. She seems to be quite capable in this strip at least: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html

She takes pleasure in annoying RC and that's probably why she's telling him. Could she be trying to bully him into attacking her?

[Vercingex]

Two words, Tsukiko- Planar Binding.

Conjuration can be used to compel the actions of an outsider. Heck, even a basic summoning spell gives the caster a measure of control over the summoned creature.

[weckar]

Seeing Tsukiko's obsession with both undead and Xykon, I wouldn't be surprised if she made preparations for lichdom as well... Probably with disastrous results...

[zingbat]

So...why is Tsukiko telling Redcloak this? Either she's not aware of the implications of only being able to summon or move the Snarl, or she actually believes Xykon would give a damn if Redcloak tried to kill her.

Girl's a moron.

She's not a moron, she's just overplayed her hand. She's so used to being able to push Redcloak around that she thinks he is weak and easily intimidated. Now that his secret has been discovered, she expects him to spill his guts and give her the other half of the ritual. However, Tsukiko has seriously overestimated the strength of her position, and Redcloak has some rather different ideas about who's guts need to be spilled...

[Conte_Vincero]

Just a thought, is it possible that Tsukuko could take a level of Cleric, become a priest of the dark one and steal the crimson mantle (killing redcloak if necessary). If so now would be the perfect time, Redcloak is weak (though she doesn't necessarily know that), but with enough wights she should be able to have a good go

[Duos Greanleef]

After reading SoD, I happen to like Redcloak, and I've always hated Tsukiko. If he doesn't find some way to end her in the next few pages, I'm going to be at a complete loss.

Well-played, Giant. Well-played indeed.

[Kish]

Just a thought, is it possible that Tsukuko could take a level of Cleric, become a priest of the dark one and steal the crimson mantle (killing redcloak if necessary).
If she has enough XP to gain a level right now.

If the Dark One accepts as a priest a human who openly doesn't care about goblins in the least and wants to be his priest only so she can kill his Prophet and prevent his Plan from reaching completion.

So, you know...generally less likely than Roy multiclassing to cleric and becoming a priest of the Dark One.

[Nenec]

I keep liking Tsukiko more and more. Even the teenage crush is cute.
Me too me too!
I don't know what they have in mind and what's gonna happen, I'm not gonna do any speculation, but for sure she's always gaining more points.

[Seraphem]

If Redcloak is fast enough on his mental feet he can still get out of this, all he has to do is admit the spell does exactly what it really does, allow someone to move the gate. Just not mention that the plan is to plane shift it to the gods, but rather claim that's how you control the Snarl, by moving it's gate to wherever you want and opening it to unleash the Snarl, then closing it back up and moving it to your next target.

[Kish]

You know. It occurs to me that Redcloak's principle concern here may be, not Tsukiko's threats, but the fact that Xykon tried to have the ritual independently verified.

[luc258]

It's Redcloaks study and he likes to prepare for heroes jumping out of the pot fern by doing stuff like that: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html
It would make sense that his study is trapped.

[Morty]

Right... I think that the only real option Redcloak has now is to kill Tsukiko and try to justify it to Xykon somehow, because if she tells Xykon about her findings, he'll be pissed, and letting her blackmail him about he almost as catastrophic.

[Son_of_Meepo]

I think that RC is actually in trouble and he realizes it. He's low on spells. If he's relying on converted inflict spells or the usual Harm/Quickened Inflict, he's hosed. That girl is all sorts of crazy necromancer. At best she'll be immune to negative energy, at worst she'll be healed by it like her undead. Going after her undead may be his best out, but I think there are spells out there that let you increase the turn resist of your undead to ridiculous levels.

I think he's going to have to try to defuse the situation for now and then try to find someone else to assassinate her before she tells Xykon.

[Kareasint]

Just a thought, is it possible that Tsukuko could take a level of Cleric, become a priest of the dark one and steal the crimson mantle (killing redcloak if necessary). If so now would be the perfect time, Redcloak is weak (though she doesn't necessarily know that), but with enough wights she should be able to have a good go

She already is at least a 3rd level cleric which is required for her Prestige Class. I think she is in Redcloak's room to get the rest of the ritual for one reason: She wants to become Number One Minion. The only way to do that is to knock the Minion currently there out of the position or have Xykon do it for her as a result of getting information that completely ticks him off.

She now has additional information that she did not before. The Ritual requires the wearer of the Crimson Mantle which will impart the Divine half of the ritual.

Another Cleric of the Dark One can be made to wear the Cloak after Redcloak is dead. The new wearer can be intimidated.

Let's assume that Redcloak is about to start a fight and wins.

Xykon is still away. Unless Tsukiko has something set up to inform him of everything in the event of her death, Redcloak has time to "clean up the mess."

Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) has the power to do a lot of things here. Redcloak, use your imagination as to the possibilities.

You could wipe Tsukiko's memory.

You could make Xykon forget that he even met her.

You could ask for the benefit of a full rest (replenish spells - this would likely cost 5k exp. Big deal. Redcloak just soloed the Resistance).

You could bypass everything and just move to the next Gate with Xykon and start casting the ritual.

I still think diplomacy is an option here. It should not be hard for Redcloak to convince Tsukiko that the ritual moves the Gate itself.

[Orzel]

Redcloak is is troooouble.

Low of spells
Backmailing/tattling spell battery
And a possible angered epic sorceror

[pendell]

WHOA. Wrong-eye must silence Tsukiko NOW.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Dun. Dun. Dun.

[Kish]

I don't get why so many people are saying Redcloak is low on spells. Unless one of his summoning spells was level 7, he has all his spells of level 7 and below left. (If one was, he merely has nearly all of them left.) So he can't Implode Tsukiko--Rebuke her wights and, while they attack her and she cringes in shock and horror, follow up with a Destruction or a Harm.

[SoC175]

Just a thought, is it possible that Tsukuko could take a level of Cleric, become a priest of the dark one and steal the crimson mantle (killing redcloak if necessary). If so now would be the perfect time, Redcloak is weak (though she doesn't necessarily know that), but with enough wights she should be able to have a good goShe already has levels in cleric and you can't take the same class twice (aka being a taking a level of cleric of Dark One while already having levels in cleric of Rat(?)).

While it's possible to switch deities, the main thing is that you can just declare yourself a cleric of deity X and get the powers of a cleric of deity X. Deity X has to accept you as one of her clerics.

[Nohar]

Ooooh this is getting good, really good... I can't wait for the next strip !

However, I see that many here seems to forget one thing : if we, the readers, know that RD is low on spells (and again, that is debatable), Tsukiko doesn't. Hence I can see RC trying to bluff or intimidate her (Tsukiko is full of herself, but even her wouldn't go after a 17th level Cleric).

No, I don't see Tsukiko trying to attack RC right now. However, RC desperantly needs to find his way out of this mess.

And we have the biggest interrogation here left unanswered : where is Xykon ? We haven't seen him in ages ! One member suggested that Xykon may be invisible (and we know he knows that spell). Yes, that would be a Diabolicus Ex Machina... Except if Tsukiko already warned Xykon of her plans, and that both of them are playing along in order to make RC spills the beans.

In any case, RC is in a very dangerous spot.

[SoC175]

BTW, we do not know that RC is low on spells. He might have used up both 9th level spells and maybe all 8th level spells, but someone still loaded with 5th to 7th level spells is not low on spells

[Firemage]

While it's possible to switch deities, the main thing is that you can just declare yourself a cleric of deity X and get the powers of a cleric of deity X. Deity X has to accept you as one of her clerics.

The southern gods basically act as one deity. So she's a cleric of the southern gods as a whole, but took the domains that belong to the rat probably.


My guess is, that it comes to a fight. Red cloak should still outcalss Tsukiko in spell levels but she has way more spells overall than Red Cloak.
So either one of them dies or Red Cloak will be on the run.

[derfenrirwolv]

I wonder of tusiko has a plan for living through this...

[Flickerdart]

It's kind of amusing, that even though Tsukiko is right, all Conjuration spells that call things (or summon them, for that matter) give the summoner an explicit means of controlling them. The Snarl would probably be immune to Enchantment anyway.

[Ave]

Easy counter-bluff "All of the Enchantment part of the ritual is in the Divine half. You just admitted you only see half the ritual, why would you assume that my half would use the same type of magic as the arcane half? Are you stupid?"

And then hope she rolls for crap on sense motive.

Yeah. I was wondering how Tsukiko thought that seeing only part of the ritual simplified her to prove it is lacking Enchantment/Transmutation.

[Blaznak]

Ahhhh.... nothing exciting will come of this ;)

[Sahaar]

Curious question: can a person place their soul into a phylactery and still be a human?

Because, if so, that opens a whole new tree of possibilities about what happens after/if RC kills Tsukiko.

[luc258]

And we still have no clue what plans Redcloak has for the phylactery. I'm wondering about that for three strips now.

[KingCortez905]

Friend of mine pointed something out about this page and the last: Redcloak has his eyepatch on the wrong eye. Mayhaps we may be dealing with a fake Redcloak? One last member of the resistance? A badass elf wanting to rummage through RC's stuff? It would be a nice twist.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Time to die, bitch.

Go Reddy! :smallamused:

[Kish]

Friend of mine pointed something out about this page and the last: Redcloak has his eyepatch on the wrong eye.
What?
*looks*
No. He lost his right eye. His right eyesocket is the covered one. His eyepatch is on the correct eye(socket) for it to be on.

[androkguz]

1- What Tsukiko is looking for in Redcloak's office is nothing less than the other half of The Ritual (capital R so it is not confused with other, less important rituals). The reason why she is doing it is, of course, because she is on Xykon's side. Either he told her to do it, or he told her enough about The Plan (capital P) for her to figure out that Redcloak had to be hidding the other half. She figures that, it must be written somewhere, and maybe she has her doubts about what it does, doubts that began by studying the arcane half.
But she is wrong, as complicated as The Ritual may be, the crimson mantle imprinted the whole knowledge of it on Redcloak's brain. There is no written version of the divine half.


Hehe, so I'm 1/3 of my predictions so far.
To see the other two, check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228091&page=3) out

[DreadArchon]

So a Mystic Theurge brings a bunch of undead to a fight with a level 17 Cleric and doesn't aggro him until she's in melee range and her control-by-rebuke-able minions are surrounding her.

She'd better hope Redcloak hesitates, because she's going to be dead five times before her ashes hit the ground at this rate, even if Redcloak has no major spells left.

[Querzis]

Yeah. I was wondering how Tsukiko thought that seeing only part of the ritual simplified her to prove it is lacking Enchantment/Transmutation.

...Shes a mystic theurge, she knows perfectly well cleric arent big on Enchantment/Transmutation and can actually speculate on the Divine half simply by studying the Arcane one.

By the way, I dunno why everyone keep saying that Redcloak could drop her with spells combination that can all be neutralized with Death Ward. Shes a necromancer who hangs around wights all day, of course shes buffed with Death Ward. As far as I'm concerned, yes, Tsukiko obviously want Redcloak to attack her, she cant prove her theories unless he does and theres plenty of spells a Mystic Theurge could use to get out of there once he start to attack (hell, we already saw she has teleport and that it work within the cloister.)

[ArlEammon]

Friend of mine pointed something out about this page and the last: Redcloak has his eyepatch on the wrong eye. Mayhaps we may be dealing with a fake Redcloak? One last member of the resistance? A badass elf wanting to rummage through RC's stuff? It would be a nice twist.

It probably means he's regenerated his eye.

[Roland Itiative]

Revealing the "location" of the other half of the ritual was not a really smart move, RC... Then again, Tsukiko knowing the big secret is a real problem. I'm guessing some "accident" will kill Tuskiko now, or else RC's in big trouble :smalltongue:

[Vectner]

Tsukiko is too smart for her own good. She needs to die, besides, no one ever really liked her anyway.

[EccentricFellow]

It does not seem to me as though any battle is going to be necessary, nor will handing over the phylactery make any difference. Both of those choices have much deeper ramifications that would likely wind up unraveling all of team Evil, and that would seem to be rather anti-climatic at this point.

The Giant clearly has something in mind here and I, for one, am quite content to watch it develop and see where it goes. Good work so far in keeping the story fresh and lively.

[luc258]

By the way, I dunno why everyone keep saying that Redcloak could drop her with spells combination that can all be neutralized with Death Ward. Shes a necromancer who hangs around wights all day, of course shes buffed with Death Ward. [...]

Seems like a reasonable assumption, but she was afraid of level drains in her fight with Haley.

edit: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html

[Kish]

It lasts a minute per level. If she dedicates all her fourth-level cleric spell slots to Death Ward, is a sixteenth-level character (highly, highly unlikely), and has a high enough Wisdom to get a bonus fourth-level spell slot, she can be Death Warded for just over an hour and a half out of every day.

The question is, did she go into Redcloak's quarters prepared for a battle with Redcloak, or is she cockily counting on him to knuckle under?

[Firemage]

It does not seem to me as though any battle is going to be necessary, nor will handing over the phylactery make any difference. Both of those choices have much deeper ramifications that would likely wind up unraveling all of team Evil, and that would seem to be rather anti-climatic at this point.

I don't see any possibilty of Team Evil still staying together long after this reveal, at least not as a 3 member team. Do you? The fact that Red Cloak withhold information alone is enough of a team breaker. Especially since Xykon doesn't trust Red Cloak anymore anyway.




The Giant clearly has something in mind here and I, for one, am quite content to watch it develop and see where it goes. Good work so far in keeping the story fresh and lively.

Me too actually, but speculatiing is just too much fun! :D

[Golden-Esque]

But, as Tsukiko is one of those characters with a radically fluctuating IQ (brilliant one moment, convinced Xykon loves her the next, for example), she may be about to tell RC what she's deduced about what he's really up to - and get it all wrong in a way RC can use.

Love rarely has anything to do with Intellect.

[TheBST]

The question is, did she go into Redcloak's quarters prepared for a battle with Redcloak, or is she cockily counting on him to knuckle under?

Probably both. Speak softly and carry a big stick. Or be arrogant and carry a posse of undead slaves, as the case may be. Redcloak's already tried to kill her before, and now he actually has a damn good reason.

[Jay R]

But, as Tsukiko is one of those characters with a radically fluctuating IQ (brilliant one moment, convinced Xykon loves her the next, for example), she may be about to tell RC what she's deduced about what he's really up to - and get it all wrong in a way RC can use.

The technical term for somebody with that level of rapidly fluctuating focus and emotions (not intelligence) is "teenager".

But even so, Redcloak's ability to use Tsukiko's words against her has not yet been documented.


You win -- here, let me put the mantle on you so you can understand the divine half --> divine wrath... I lied.

If the wrong person wearing the cloak is desecration on that level, then I suspect that the priest who put in on her would get some of the punishment.


I have no idea what will happen next, even though you all seem to know.

Yeah, right. Everybody knew what would happen after the last one, too, and nobody thought she'd have figured out the ritual wouldn't do what Redcloak said. Everybody knew what would happen after 827, and nobody predicted Tsukiko in Redcloak's room. Everybody knew what would happen after 825, but nobody predicted the polymorphed spy. Everybody knew what would happen after 824, but nobody predicted Redcloak would get the phylactery back.

Relax and enjoy the ride. There are surprises coming.

[Sian]

would it be way out of the plane of expectation to have RC jump ship (after somehow luring Xykon onwards) and joining up with OotS in exchange for them working for that Gobbotropia stays where it is ... the Dark one's goal was effectively to let Goblinoids have their own place, and they have that now

[moonbiter]

If I hadn't read this forum thread, I would have absolutely no idea what was going on in the comic. Ritual arcane/divine spell? What ritual arcane/divine spell? So thanks for those of you who filled us poor folks in.

[Arrowstorm122]

What does it exactly mean that it's conjuration? As far as I know, conjuration summons a creature, but what is the gate then for?

[luc258]

If I hadn't read this forum thread, I would have absolutely no idea what was going on in the comic. Ritual arcane/divine spell? What ritual arcane/divine spell? So thanks for those of you who filled us poor folks in.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html
and the following few pages.

edit: wait, join date 2007?

[Roland Itiative]

What does it exactly mean that it's conjuration? As far as I know, conjuration summons a creature, but what is the gate then for?
The spell moves the gate around between planes. So, it conjures the gate to another plane, hence the use of the Conjuration school.

The Plan is basically to have the Dark One threaten the gods with having a Snarl Gate popping up wherever they are, and then opened. The idea is not to actually use the Snarl, but to have it as leverage. Kind of like nuclear weapons in modern warfare.

[Arrowstorm122]

The spell moves the gate around between planes. It conjures the gate to another plane. The Plan is basically to have the Dark One threaten the gods with having a Snarl Gate popping up wherever they are, and then opened. The idea is not to actually use the Snarl, but to have it as leverage. Kind of like nuclear weapons in modern warfare.

After taking up my Start of Darkness book, and saw the word "warp", I began to understand something along these lines (thanks protoss!). But thanks for confirming :smallsmile:

[Sethis]

Am I the only one who read that and thought

"Well, duh. Do you think there is Enchantment in a Summon Monster spell? How about a Gate spell? Planar Binding? Funny, they all are pure Conjuration magic, but lo and behold they force things to obey you!"

It sounds like Tsukiko is bluffing.

[the_tick_rules]

Yeah readin SOD is a big help in understanding the comic huh? Maybe giant forgot some haven't lol. Xykon and red may have even more problems getting along now.

[Jubal_Barca]

I don't suppose the Giant has forgotten the lack of people having read SoD (who include myself) for a minute. I'm anticipating a go-over of the crucial plot points regarding the ritual mixed into the next few strips, possibly.

[Jubal_Barca]

would it be way out of the plane of expectation to have RC jump ship (after somehow luring Xykon onwards) and joining up with OotS in exchange for them working for that Gobbotropia stays where it is ... the Dark one's goal was effectively to let Goblinoids have their own place, and they have that now

Yes, it would. We know even after Gobbotopia's success that the Dark One doesn't want RC to screw up The Plan (which involves giving the Dark One control of the gates. Besides, on a personal level it would mean that the many sacrifices he's made in his alliance with Xykon would have been pretty much pointless.

EDIT: Annnd this is what happens when you quote a post on one page and then post a reply on another. I'm an idiot. Sorry, moderators. Please don't kill me.

[Beowulf DW]

I can only see this ending in hilarity or a massacre. Either way, it will be awesome.

[Gholateg]

I don't think X would care if RC offed T.

Hell, I think Xy would be impressed with Red for taking the step and getting his evil balls back. Well, impressed is too strong a word.. but he'd enjoy it, maybe even let red regrow his eye.

And I'm pretty sure Red could take T in a fight, she's given him level draining troops, and enough repressed rage for him to snap and turn her into an Asian Raisin.

Wasn't red there for X's creation of the phylactery too? Helping him make the thing? Hell, It's his old holy symbol right? Could have very well put some backstops in the spellwork for him to crack that thing. All he has to do is dangle that in front of her while he gains control of the zeds behind her and swarm.

[WhamBamSam]

Seems like a reasonable assumption, but she was afraid of level drains in her fight with Haley.

edit: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.htmlPretty much this. Also, Redcloak might have a few 8th and 9th level spells left. He's used one Implosion, and maybe a Gate if the thing at the end of 826 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) was a Pit Fiend (1+1 of his 1+1 9ths), as well as Earthquake and potentially Greater Planar Ally and Summon Monster VIII (2+1 of his 2+1 8ths), but it's not at all unreasonable to think he has enough Wis for a bonus spell in each.

And as far as raising Tsukiko goes; there is a giant hole directly above the city that destroys souls. Xykon might be annoyed, but with Tsukiko deader than dead, he'll kind of need Redcloak, and it'd be hard to stop RC from escaping with Miracle if he got a chance to replenish spells and things really go south.

[JohnnyCancer]

It's a good thing for our Necrophile friend that evil clerics can't take control of undead or anything. Ohhhhh....

[Bad Hair Day]

I'm gonna guess:

RC kills Tsukiko, Xykon unexpectedly returns, and he raises her as undead, 10 times more evil than before, and more powerful.

Do you think Xykon would consider a romantic relationship with Tsukiko once she was undead, then?

[deathsli'helper]

:elan:Dun Dun Duun!!!

[ORione]

That's assuming he can actually take the thing off--he's very old for a goblin, he might shrivel up and die if he removes the Mantle!


I doubt it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html)

[Gusion]

But, as Tsukiko is one of those characters with a radically fluctuating IQ (brilliant one moment, convinced Xykon loves her the next, for example), she may be about to tell RC what she's deduced about what he's really up to - and get it all wrong in a way RC can use.

Love and intelligence are not related in the slightest.

Her being brilliant is an Intelligence check

Her being convinced Xykon loves her is a Wisdom check.

Very smart people do very dumb things in the name of "love" all the time.

[Tobimaro]

Tsukiko's days are looking to be short. Maybe within a week's worth. But, we've been here before, and Rich has pulled surprises in the past. I'll believe that she is dead when I see her drawn with Xs in her eyes.

[Riverdance]

I don't suppose the Giant has forgotten the lack of people having read SoD (who include myself) for a minute. I'm anticipating a go-over of the crucial plot points regarding the ritual mixed into the next few strips, possibly.

Yeah, this is the first time I can remember hearing of the Crimson Mantle explicitly mentioned as such in the main comic. I don't own SoD (although that will soon be remedied) so the only way I can vaguely understand the reference to it and the Dark One is from reading the forum.

[ORione]

Yeah, this is the first time I can remember hearing of the Crimson Mantle explicitly mentioned as such in the main comic. I don't own SoD (although that will soon be remedied) so the only way I can vaguely understand the reference to it and the Dark One is from reading the forum.

You forgot the third panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html).

[thepsyker]

Why does everyone seem to be assuming that she has figured things out correctly? Just because she says that she has figured out Reds secret doesn't mean she actually has.

[Warren Dew]

(SoD)
No he couldn't. The way it was described, the ritual grants control directly to the Dark One, not whoever performs the ritual. Now whether or not Tsukiko could figure out how to alter the ritual if she had access to the whole thing is a different matter...
Ah, forgot about that. However, if that part is in Redcloak's half of the ritual, he could still bluff about it, or try to.

[Doug Lampert]

So a Mystic Theurge brings a bunch of undead to a fight with a level 17 Cleric and doesn't aggro him until she's in melee range and her control-by-rebuke-able minions are surrounding her.

She'd better hope Redcloak hesitates, because she's going to be dead five times before her ashes hit the ground at this rate, even if Redcloak has no major spells left.

So? Redcloak ATTEMPTS to rebuke her undead. Standard action and it may not work since rebuke requires that the creature's HD for purposes of resisting be EIGHT or less for a level 17 for it to work, and she can easily boost things to higher than that.

Assume it works. He then gives orders to the undead. Another standard action, which the undead then need to respond to.

You're not the only one to propose this. But if Redcloaks best options involve giving T up to THREE FULL ROUNDS prior to the first undead totally failing to drain her level then he's doomed.

[Sethis]

So? Redcloak ATTEMPTS to rebuke her undead. Standard action and it may not work since rebuke requires that the creature's HD for purposes of resisting be EIGHT or less for a level 17 for it to work, and she can easily boost things to higher than that.

Assume it works. He then gives orders to the undead. Another standard action, which the undead then need to respond to.

You're not the only one to propose this. But if Redcloaks best options involve giving T up to THREE FULL ROUNDS prior to the first undead totally failing to drain her level then he's doomed.

Why is anyone suggesting rebuking at all?

Those are Wights. They are CR 3. They have a +3 Attack bonus with a Slam attack. If they don't need 20's to hit Redcloak, then he must be naked, unbuffed, and have a lower DEX than a standard warrior Goblin. They are effectively ignorable.

Tsukiko has a Low Con and no favoured save for Fortitude. Destruction, an 8th level spell Redcloak knows, will likely have a >80% chance of killing her in a single round. This is assuming he's used all his 9th level slots (he has 3, 1+1 for high Wisdom (I hope) + 1 Domain.) of which we've only seen him use 1, Implosion.

This is not a fight any more than Xykon versus V without Soul Splices would be a fight. This is Tsukiko trying to get away with intimidation because she believes she is protected by Xykon.

[vegetalss4]

Am I the only one who read that and thought

"Well, duh. Do you think there is Enchantment in a Summon Monster spell? How about a Gate spell? Planar Binding? Funny, they all are pure Conjuration magic, but lo and behold they force things to obey you!"

It sounds like Tsukiko is bluffing.

You am not, I thought so too at the very least

[Gusion]

1. I doubt Tsukiko has told X anything. She wants to surprise him with the "smoking wand" - so that precludes her giving him stuff before she is sure. X also doesn't seem like the type of boss who wants to hear anything before success.

2. Tsukiko thinks she has it figured out. RC can pretty easily point out her errors and play upon every teenagers inherent insecurities.

I expect he will try to turn what she thinks is her biggest strength against her.

"Oh, so, that's your big idea? I have an idea, why don't you go tell Xykon that theory on how conjuration spells don't provide control over the creature summoned. And make sure you interrupt him during his favorite TV show. Because I know I've summoned hundreds of creatures and controlled them all.

So go do that. Now. Or maybe you should go exercise first. Xykon isn't a fan of muffin tops. Either way get out of my study."

RC isn't really the type to show his hand unless he has no other choice. He's also thoughtful enough to avoid a fight someone else is picking. It is always better to pick your ground and time. RC has no idea what protections she's cast on herself before entering the study - although it is likely T did some because she had to get through wards and didn't know what to expect inside.

Later of if RC is talking with Xykon and Tsukiko tries to interrupt, he could turn to her and cast implosion and I think Xykon would laugh because the graphics are disturbing and then tell him to res her when he got around to it. Xykon cares about being entertained more than her death - especially when it isn't permanent.

[ghoul-n]

Pretty much looking forward for RC disintegrating/imploding her :\

[FatJose]

So when are these two gonna bone already *groan* :smallsigh:

[Sotharsyl]

You know no matter if Tsuhiko gets killed in one panel the very next comic, that was one hell pf a Knowledge:Arcana/Knowledge:Divine/Spellcraft check she did.

Hooray for Mistic Theurges everywhere,never let the only arcane or only divine casters keep you down!

[Bolt-on-headlamps]

I think Tuskiko has to die, now.

Not only for the prior reasons listed but didn't Redcloak make a VERY unwise admission in front of her, about the exact mechanics of how the divine half of the ritual was known?

What's to stop Xykon from killing Reddy now, giving the Crimson Mantle to some low-level cleric mook, and charming/dominating/torturing every last detail out of him? Hasn't he made himself even more expendable?

[skaddix]

I think Tuskiko has to die, now.

Not only for the prior reasons listed but didn't Redcloak make a VERY unwise admission in front of her, about the exact mechanics of how the divine half of the ritual was known?

What's to stop Xykon from killing Reddy now, giving the Crimson Mantle to some low-level cleric mook, and charming/dominating/torturing every last detail out of him? Hasn't he made himself even more expendable?

Well u need a Priest of the Dark One to wear the Mantle. However, I don't see anything stopping Xykon from torturing the truth out of Reddy.

Honestly, Reddy is first move is go for a bluff if that fails he has to go for a kill.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Wait a second, the first panel. "Like how you're gonna break it to Xykon that your dumb hobgoblins lost his phylactery."

[derfenrirwolv]

Wait a second, the first panel. "Like how you're gonna break it to Xykon that your dumb hobgoblins lost his phylactery."



-The goblins sent a message spell to the base from the sewers the second they found the phylactery.

[Super_slash2]

That would be a Diabolus ex Machina, which isn't Giant's style.
Where is Xykon, anyway?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html

the fourth panel, the black speech bubble. Isn't that Xykon? For some reason I assumed that was him talking.

[Whiffet]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html

the fourth panel, the black speech bubble. Isn't that Xykon? For some reason I assumed that was him talking.

Nah, that's a wight.

[Gift Jeraff]

the fourth panel, the black speech bubble. Isn't that Xykon? For some reason I assumed that was him talking.That makes no sense. It's one of the wights--all undead have those speech balloons.

[Michaeler]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html

the fourth panel, the black speech bubble. Isn't that Xykon? For some reason I assumed that was him talking.

I think that was the booted wight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html).

[EnragedFilia]

Here's the important part that we don't really know yet: is Xykon still gone? If so, all Redcloak has to do is say "Pfft. tell him whatever you want, Human" then tell Jirix to have one of the new anti-insurgent commando team execute a Human traitor. He can produce some evidence later that Tsukiko had gone over to the Resistance, and Xykon probably won't even question it.

If Tsukiko has already used sending or some such to share her discovery with him, then things gets much more complicated.

[MoonCat]

As a DnD newbie who's still more comfortable stabbing things than casting spells, could someone explain what the significance to it being Conjuration is?

I've read SoD, so I know kinda what Redcloak's plan is, but I have no idea how this changes anything for the others.

Help would be greatly appreciated! :smallsmile:

[Dark Elf Bard]

As a DnD newbie who's still more comfortable stabbing things than casting spells, could someone explain what the significance to it being Conjuration is?

I've read SoD, so I know kinda what Redcloak's plan is, but I have no idea how this changes anything for the others.

Help would be greatly appreciated! :smallsmile:

This means that Redcloak won't control it, he'll summon (or conjure) the Snarl.

[SaintRidley]

As a DnD newbie who's still more comfortable stabbing things than casting spells, could someone explain what the significance to it being Conjuration is?

I've read SoD, so I know kinda what Redcloak's plan is, but I have no idea how this changes anything for the others.

Help would be greatly appreciated! :smallsmile:

Conjuration is a school of magic that includes, among other things, spells relating to transportation. The fact that there is no Enchantment or Transmutation, but rather Conjuration has set Tsukiko's alarms off - she sees the traces that seem to say "This is a ritual to move something rather than control it" and that's the issue. Redcloak told Xykon the ritual was to control the Snarl, not to move the gate.

[Kish]

As a DnD newbie who's still more comfortable stabbing things than casting spells, could someone explain what the significance to it being Conjuration is?
There is no significance to it being Conjuration as such. Rather, she sees that it is not a control spell, because that would be either Enchantment or Transmutation. It could have been any of the six not-enchantment-or-transmutation schools, and she would have said approximately the same thing to Redcloak.

[MoonCat]

Oh, thanks, that's very helpful! I figured it was something along those lines, but I wasn't sure.

[SaintRidley]

There is no significance to it being Conjuration as such. Rather, she sees that it is not a control spell, because that would be either Enchantment or Transmutation. It could have been any of the six not-enchantment-or-transmutation schools, and she would have said approximately the same thing to Redcloak.

Conjuration does have one thing going for it that the other five schools don't - the teleportation subschool. Conjuration doesn't explicitly say "Hey, it's moving the gate" but it certainly sticks that out there as a very obvious option if you're trying to peel back secrecy and whether Redcloak is hiding something big.

[Joxer t' Mighty]

Umm, why do I keep hearing comments about Tsukiko being only a spell level behind Redcloak or the equivalent? Assuming she's got all levels in mystic theurge and met the prereqs at the earliest level, her top casting is only 7th level.

However, this is unlikely as her top spell was a 4th level Inflict Wounds (evil clerics can sacrifice any spell for an inflict spell of equivalent level) back when we first encountered her. She'd have to have leveled 6 times since then, something that doesn't seem likely, and even then she's at the very least 2 caster levels below him.

[Kojiro]

There's a surprising amount of Redcloak fanboyism going on in here, mixed with a lot of Tsukiko hate, and it seems to be causing people to ignore rather obvious things. For example, two really common thoughts are that Tsukiko knows too much, having been studying the ritual and at least having evidence that makes Redcloak look bad, even if some people are arguing that it isn't conclusive, and that Xykon wouldn't care if Redcloak killed Tsukiko. Yet, that first thing alone is reason that the second isn't true; all Xykon cares about is power, yes. The prize. The MacGuffin. Which, in this case, are the ritual and a gate. Now, who is deciphering the ritual, on Xykon's orders?

Tsukiko. Even ignoring that Xykon is pissed at Redcloak (which is ridiculous and I don't know why so many people are doing it), that alone gives her value to him. It is also yet another sign of how Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak, since he's seeking independent confirmation of the ritual's effects. Besides, Xykon had Jirix, a disposable hobgoblin, raised after the incident that lost the phylactery in the first place; apart from him suddenly being overcome by a severe case of stupid, there is no reason he wouldn't have the same done for the person who is taking care of the most important thing, barring his phylactery, for him.

In short, Redcloak is screwed. Kill Tsukiko (assuming he can; I don't place as much faith in him as the rest of the people here, and if he were to use a spell like Implosion the ritual would be consumed too, one more mark against Redcloak), and Xykon will be displeased; raising her will result in her revealing the truth, and refusing will probably be the last straw, especially considering the phylactery failure (although handing it over then could buy him some favor back, albeit at the cost of, well, Xykon having his phylactery back). Don't kill her, and then there's just the same as above without the raising step, although his having not killed her in the first place would at least put slightly less suspicion on him when it comes down to him versus her. Also, whether or not he kills her, he can flee, although this would doom the goblin civilization as Xykon takes out his frustration on anything remotely resembling a certain red-cloaked minion. Considering all this, I'd have to say that the best option would be the second, leaving her alive and trying to convince Xykon that she's wrong or lying, possibly using the phylactery if it did come to that; paint it as "despite your failure to control the resistance, and your general gross incompetence, I managed to recovery the lost phylactery personally; I also do not appreciate your attempts to besmirch my name after your complete screw-up," and so on. Even then, it's not very likely that he'll get off intact, though, it's just better than digging himself a deeper hole.

I doubt he will, though. I'm foreseeing even more failure in Redcloak's future. I wouldn't be surprised if he fled, in fact, and tried to rationalize it as part of "the plan" to assuage his guilt, as he's done in the past.

[Doug Lampert]

Why is anyone suggesting rebuking at all?

Beats me. It's a waste of an action for either of them if those are actually CR3 unbuffed wights. And if they're significantly more, or even if T bolstered them then they can't be rebuked.

Redcloak can PROBABLY one shot her with a single spell, your choice of destruction isn't bad, but it's a death effect so it won't work if T is buffed.

That's the thing, almost any attack is playing Rock-paper-scissors against T's buffs and items. Redcloak SHOULD win, he's presumably higher level and he's definitely a better build. The only reason its open to doubt is that Red-cloak is down a lot of spells.

Redcloak needs to do SOMETHING now. 828 he could shrug off if he liked, but this is dangerous. Killing her is the obvious, but seems mildly pointless storywise and it counts on X being dumb. He's not. Don't confuse not caring with not knowing, and in this case he'd care.

Bluffing T on the basis that many summons and calling spells grant control seems like the best bet, but that won't work if T has actually figured the spell out.

[Gift Jeraff]

Umm, why do I keep hearing comments about Tsukiko being only a spell level behind Redcloak or the equivalent? Assuming she's got all levels in mystic theurge and met the prereqs at the earliest level, her top casting is only 7th level.

However, this is unlikely as her top spell was a 4th level Inflict Wounds (evil clerics can sacrifice any spell for an inflict spell of equivalent level) back when we first encountered her. She'd have to have leveled 6 times since then, something that doesn't seem likely, and even then she's at the very least 2 caster levels below him.She used a 6th-level spell (Create Undead) with her arcane half not too long ago, and 5th-level divine spell (Flame Strike) about 7 months ago in-comic. Doesn't detract from your basic point, but those are her highest spells seen IIRC.

[Kish]

She used a 6th-level spell (Create Undead) with her arcane half not too long ago, and 5th-level divine spell (Flame Strike) about 7 months ago in-comic. Doesn't detract from your basic point, but those are her highest spells seen IIRC.
That wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11) Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm).

Flame Strike is fifth level divine, for her being at least level 12. Teleport is fifth level arcane, for her being at least level 12. Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell is level ???, for her being at least level ?.

[Blisstake]

That wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11) Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm).

Flame Strike is fifth level divine, for her being at least level 12. Teleport is fifth level arcane, for her being at least level 12. Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell is level ???, for her being at least level ?.

I'm fairly certain shouting "Create Undead" and making a ghast means that spell is Create Undead.

[Doug Lampert]

Umm, why do I keep hearing comments about Tsukiko being only a spell level behind Redcloak or the equivalent? Assuming she's got all levels in mystic theurge and met the prereqs at the earliest level, her top casting is only 7th level.

However, this is unlikely as her top spell was a 4th level Inflict Wounds (evil clerics can sacrifice any spell for an inflict spell of equivalent level) back when we first encountered her. She'd have to have leveled 6 times since then, something that doesn't seem likely, and even then she's at the very least 2 caster levels below him.

No, that was her best negative energy spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html). She can spontaniously cast that and it will be her best single target undead healing spell unless she has level SEVEN spells. That tells us she had at least level 4 and that if she had level 7 she hadn't prepared Harm, and that's ALL it tells us.

She's been throwing teleport arround for quite awhile, and she appears to have had Create Undead for quite awhile, which means she had level 6 spells going way back. If substantially lower level than RedCloak then she also levels about twice as fast or more.

She is now level 15 or higher. Level 16 will give her level 7 spells in both classes. Redcloak has level 9's, 2-3 slots, and what do you know, he's used 2-3 slots. He may also have used many of his level 8s.

He's not up all that significantly on spells right now.

[Shatteredtower]

Beats me. It's a waste of an action for either of them if those are actually CR3 unbuffed wights.

You're thinking like a gamer. The Giant's thinking like a storyteller who employs game mechanics when it suits him, such as when one of those wights tagged Belkar and cost him a new level.

Forget the mechanics. This is Tsukiko, who treats her wights as children under her care. From an emotional point of view, she is not equipped to fight or defend herself from them if they turn on her.

[TBone]

The reason he cannot bluff that the spells divine half has the enchantment or transmutation components is that it is exactly half of the ritual. As in what's in the arcane scroll she has, is exactly the mirror of the divine portion. Its not half as in cut a man in half at the torso leaving legs and upper body. Its half as in cutting him from the top of his head to his crotch. She has figured it out, and she knows that it doesn't do what redcloak says it does. That will be very hard, nigh impossible to bluff his way out of.

[Caesar]

The reason he cannot bluff that the spells divine half has the enchantment or transmutation components is that it is exactly half of the ritual. As in what's in the arcane scroll she has, is exactly the mirror of the divine portion. Its not half as in cut a man in half at the torso leaving legs and upper body. Its half as in cutting him from the top of his head to his crotch. She has figured it out, and she knows that it doesn't do what redcloak says it does. That will be very hard, nigh impossible to bluff his way out of.

You dont actually know that, as nowhere in the comic does the Giant make that kind of explicit statement. He just says half n half. Arcane and divine. It could easily be split up that way, specially given that the schools of magic arent exactly distributed equally between wizards and clerics.

Im thinking its totally going to be plot driven battle of wits here, not a spell slinging death match, for most of the reasons already mentioned earlier in this thread.

[EnragedFilia]

She is now level 15 or higher. Level 16 will give her level 7 spells in both classes. Redcloak has level 9's, 2-3 slots, and what do you know, he's used 2-3 slots. He may also have used many of his level 8s.

Are you sure? That really depends on exactly what he used to summon up his army and when. On-panel he's used implosion, earthquake, word of recall, and several non-named things, probably either direct damage or instakills such as mass inflicts, slay living, etc. In addition, payment envelope panel definitely seems to indicate that his Baatezu army was the result of planar ally or planar binding, as the summon monster # series makes no mention of payment. The osmium elemental could have been summoned normally (although a planar ally would be much more convenient, as a 17-round duration summon would pretty much have to be cast seconds before the resistance arrived), which would probably be either an 8th or 9th-level spell depending on whether it was greater or elder. No matter how you slice it, it's perfectly possible for Redcloak to have all of his 7th level spell slots available (depending mostly on exactly what he was casting in 826.panel4 and 827.panel1).

[Gift Jeraff]

That wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11) Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm).

Flame Strike is fifth level divine, for her being at least level 12. Teleport is fifth level arcane, for her being at least level 12. Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell is level ???, for her being at least level ?.What Blisstake said. Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) I posted in the wight-making spell thread; I didn't forget about it. :smallwink:

Also, linking Create Undead's spell entry is meaningless. After all, Create Greater Undead says nothing at all about floating dragon heads with the dragon's soul forced inside.

[Kojiro]

Okay, out of curiosity, are there any existing rituals that are half one spell school, half another? This is an honest question; I don't have access to any rulebooks that would have this information at the moment. If there aren't, though, I doubt that the "well maybe this one is" excuse will fly.

[Red XIV]

Not only for the prior reasons listed but didn't Redcloak make a VERY unwise admission in front of her, about the exact mechanics of how the divine half of the ritual was known?

What's to stop Xykon from killing Reddy now, giving the Crimson Mantle to some low-level cleric mook, and charming/dominating/torturing every last detail out of him? Hasn't he made himself even more expendable?
Xykon already knows that the Crimson Mantle provides the details of the ritual to its wearer. That's why Xykon threatened to kill Redcloak and give the cloak to Jirix if Reddy regenerates his eye (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html).

[luc258]

Details about the ritual, e.g. wether Tsukiko can deduct details about it from her half, will fall under house rules and be done as the story requires.
From the last panel i would assume that the story currently tends to say yes, Tsukiko can in fact do that.

This can change next panel of course, but i doubt it.

[rewinn]

Why does everyone seem to be assuming that she has figured things out correctly? Just because she says that she has figured out Reds secret doesn't mean she actually has.

Oh, absolutely. She thinks she has figured out that RC has *something* he doesn't want X to know, and she may be completely wrong as to what it is. It's sorta like RC deciding O-Chul must have some super ability to resist interrogation, instead of simply not knowing about Gerard's gate.

Perhaps RC's best hope is to persuade Tsukiko that he has a secret that might annoy X, but not into a killing rage. That's a mighty fine line to draw. The trick that occurs to me is very nearly the truth: that ...the conjuration elements of the spell are to control the Snarl not directly, but by teleporting an opened gate from place to place. This might actually be an adequate way to control the Snarl;directly controlling the Snarl to do anything might be impossible, but exposing anyone to the Snarl is probably going to make them run away or cease to exist. This might amuse X, and it has the advantage of being true ... merely incomplete.

Another point: we may have a better idea now as to why RC would want the "details" of the crushing of the Resistance kept secret: Tsukiko was given the job of destroying it. If RC tells X he got the phylactery back but didn't wipe out the Resistance, Tsukiko looks bad. All RC has to do is stage a few incidents of Resistance activity, and may be Tsukiko will be left behind when X moves on. Jirix and 10,000 goblinoids should be able to do the rest.

[skaddix]

Oh, absolutely. She thinks she has figured out that RC has *something* he doesn't want X to know, and she may be completely wrong as to what it is. It's sorta like RC deciding O-Chul must have some super ability to resist interrogation, instead of simply not knowing about Gerard's gate.

Perhaps RC's best hope is to persuade Tsukiko that he has a secret that might annoy X, but not into a killing rage. That's a mighty fine line to draw. The trick that occurs to me is very nearly the truth: that ...the conjuration elements of the spell are to control the Snarl not directly, but by teleporting an opened gate from place to place. This might actually be an adequate way to control the Snarl;directly controlling the Snarl to do anything might be impossible, but exposing anyone to the Snarl is probably going to make them run away or cease to exist. This might amuse X, and it has the advantage of being true ... merely incomplete.

Another point: we may have a better idea now as to why RC would want the "details" of the crushing of the Resistance kept secret: Tsukiko was given the job of destroying it. If RC tells X he got the phylactery back but didn't wipe out the Resistance, Tsukiko looks bad. All RC has to do is stage a few incidents of Resistance activity, and may be Tsukiko will be left behind when X moves on. Jirix and 10,000 goblinoids should be able to do the rest.

Xykon does not care about the goblinoids so no he is not leaving a valuable ally behind just to knock out a few rebels.

[One Skunk Todd]

Do you think Xykon would consider a romantic relationship with Tsukiko once she was undead, then?

The Bride of Xykonstein.

[max_black0]

Okay, I've read alot of the of the thread and past comic pages. I STILL don't understand whats going on!

I've never played D&D, so what does all this stuff mean? I'm totally lost!

[Caesar]

Okay, I've read alot of the of the thread and past comic pages. I STILL don't understand whats going on!

I've never played D&D, so what does all this stuff mean? I'm totally lost!

Guess i will spoiler this, tho its probably pretty much common knowledge by now

There is a secret ritual to control the gates which contain the snarl, known to RedCloak thru his God, the Dark One. RC lied to Xykon about it, who thinks its just a way to control the snarl directly (like a pet monster). RC needs Xykon to work the arcane half of the ritual. One the ritual is cast, his God will use it to force the other gods to give goblins a fair share in the world, rather than just being xp-chunks for wandering adventurers.

The ritual itself is half arcane, half divine (xykon is a sorcerer, thats the arcane part, redcloak is a cleric, thats the divine half). Magic is split up as well into schools in dnd, and tsusiko who can cast both arcane and divine thanks to her class, has deduced that something is wrong with redcloaks story he told to xykon. Namely, there isnt any enchantment or transmutation involved, which is needed to control creatures. Instead, it has lots of conjuration, which is more to do with summoning, and teleportation. So she is calling him out on it.

Playgrounders are currently arguing how much she really knows, and what will happen next.

[Valley]

Quick Redcloak, use the smoke bomb....


Oh wait...that's Batman.

[Oakianus]

I think the "Bluff about the other half of the ritual" folks are missing something vital in the penultimate panel of the strip in a way that backs up the "Dividing a person" theory that someone had earlier. She's looking at half of each effect, not at half of the possible effects, and is able to figure out the school of the effects being evoked despite only having half of them.

That's not to say it's impossible for Redcloak to try to pull some shenanigans, but I'd say that the text makes it pretty clear that she can partially see all of the effects and that said effects are from a Conjuration spell, rather than seeing half of the effects of a spell that could be of Conjuration and another school.

[eras10]

I'm not saying I think it's going to go this way - kind of doubt it, in fact. But I agree that Tsuikko's knowledge is not unrecoverable, at least in theory.

So it's a conjuration spell, so what? The idea that there is no way for a conjuration spell to control what it summons is, as so many have said, deeply flawed. For all Tsuikko knows, along with the Snarl Redcloak is also summoning a Dark-One-Crafted Super Dog Collar of Snarl Control.

For that matter, even the idea that the Snarl isn't controllable doesn't matter as long as Redcloak can bluff that it can be put both in and out of the extra-dimensional box. You don't *need* control to use it as a nuclear weapon to intimidate the world. You just warp it into a human nation, it eats the capital city, then you warp it back into the box.

So the problem isn't so much that what Tsuikko knows about the spell demonstrates that Redcloak is lying. It's that she thinks it does.
See, even if she's demonstratably wrong, just raising the suspicion to Xykon could lead Xykon to demand all manner of risky and dangerous proof.

If Xykon demands that Redcloak write out the divine half...
Yeah, so props to whoever pointed out that the soul-eating rift is right there.

[eilandesq]

Is Tsukiko related to Crystal? There are scads of Conjuration spells with control elements, going all the way from Monster Summoning I to Gate--not realizing that is "Pickle Death Attack"-grade ignorance/stupidity for an experienced high level caster.

Since by her own admission she's there on her own and not under the orders of Xykon, Redcloak should cut loose and try to finish her off, then come up with an alibi later. Even down a couple of high level spells, he's easily more than a match for Tsukiko--particularly if he's considered the possibility of a confrontation with her and set aside a few spells for the occasion (say, Mass Cure Critical Wounds to slaughter her undead bodyguards, then Destruction for Tsukiko herself--starting off with a Dimensional Anchor would be a good idea as well).

[4GottenFamiliar]

Didn't read all the posts here, but did anyone else note what a huge boner it was of Redcloak to reveal that the crimson mantle imparts its knowledge directly to the wearer? If Tsukiko gets her hands on it, can she use it like he does? Or does she have to be a goblin/cleric/goblin-cleric?

[Herald Alberich]

Didn't read all the posts here, but did anyone else note what a huge boner it was of Redcloak to reveal that the crimson mantle imparts its knowledge directly to the wearer? If Tsukiko gets her hands on it, can she use it like he does? Or does she have to be a goblin/cleric/goblin-cleric?

No, he covered his ass on that one, with the words "and only then if they are a priest of the Dark One."

[4GottenFamiliar]

Didn't read all the posts here, but did anyone else note what a huge boner it was of Redcloak to reveal that the crimson mantle imparts its knowledge directly to the wearer? If Tsukiko gets her hands on it, can she use it like he does? Or does she have to be a goblin/cleric/goblin-cleric?


oops, just reread, only to priests of the Dark One, statement withdrawn.

[ORione]

No, he covered his ass on that one, with the words "and only then if they are a priest of the Dark One."

And before anyone asks again, she can't become a priest of the Dark One because 1. the Dark One would have to allow it and 2. She's already a cleric of the Southern Pantheon.

[4GottenFamiliar]

oops, just reread, only to priests of the Dark One, statement withdrawn.

Although still, that was probably not an smart thing for him to reveal. Jirix, for example, is a priest of the Dark One, isn't he? And one who could easily replace Redcloak, in Xykon's eyes.

[4GottenFamiliar]

Although still, that was probably not an smart thing for him to reveal. Jirix, for example, is a priest of the Dark One, isn't he? And one who could easily replace Redcloak, in Xykon's eyes.

Ah I had to jump back for a second, but in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html Xykon shows his indifference to killing Redcloak and giving his cloak to Jirix, who would easily be much easier to coerce or convince than RC himself. Redcloak just blatantly gave away some pretty important (and usable) information to someone very treacherous.

[4GottenFamiliar]

And say RC is to kill Tsukiko, Xykon is likely to have her raised. He's already pissed at RC and too smart to fully trust him, a dispute like that would just rouse suspicions. Redcloak's best bet is to make a deal with Tsukiko or just start running.

Also, sorry if I'm repeating stuff that was already said here.

[Doug Lampert]

She is now level 15 or higher. Level 16 will give her level 7 spells in both classes. Redcloak has level 9's, 2-3 slots, and what do you know, he's used 2-3 slots. He may also have used many of his level 8s.

He's not up all that significantly on spells right now.


Are you sure? ...
No matter how you slice it, it's perfectly possible for Redcloak to have all of his 7th level spell slots available (depending mostly on exactly what he was casting in 826.panel4 and 827.panel1).

How does this even begin to contradict me. T quite likely starts the day with MORE SPELLS of level 7 than RC, and certainly starts with more of every lower level. If Redcloak has EVERY ONE of his level seven and lower spells available, then he's not up on T at all, he's down. I'm assuming he still has some 8's left and claimint he is still not at all that big an advantage.

[EnragedFilia]

Oh, I wasn't trying to argue that part. As has already been established, Tsukiko has more spell slots than hit points (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html) (hyperbole notwithstanding). I was just pointing out that Redcloak may well have most of his important spells still available.

In any case, his major advantages in any confrontation with Tsukiko would be significantly higher save DCs and a surprise round (I don't remember what mystic theurge saves are like).

[ORione]

](I don't remember what mystic theurge saves are like).

Wizards have good will saves.
Clerics have good will and fortitude saves.
Mystic Theurges have good will saves.

[4GottenFamiliar]

They might argue some more, but they totally aren't going to fight it out right now.

[Gholateg]

Newb question here, but when has Xy ever shown T any consideration that he gave a rats ass that she lived or died? I keep seeing all this "Xy finds her useful, xy wouldn't throw her away" lines... But from what I've read, he honestly would not care all that much if Red off'ed her.

He's Chaotic frecking Evil from his crown to his adorable stylish sandals. He would, in all reality, probably give RC props for growing a backbone and crushing the wench. He's done it to red cloak before, with right eye.

For all we know his favoring T and goading her into poking reddie might just be another test for Red. "How much can you take from this whisp of a girl before you do something about it? Do you have the grapes to keep your position? Or are you going to bow down and be a minion forever?"

Sure that test has fallen to the wayside since his "get out of hell free" token is missing, but it could very well have been his original intent. That and he loves making RC miserable. So Two'fer!

[ti'esar]

To the people who think Redcloak can just up and blow Tsukiko away without Xykon (metaphorically) raising an eyebrow, I'd point out that Xykon is lazy, but not stupid. He's always known that Redcloak has at least some degree of ulterior motives involving the ritual, but the fact that he's now having Tsukiko research it independently suggests whatever suspicions he has are growing. For Tsukiko to then turn up dead - regardless of whether Redcloak is up front about it or tries to pin it on the Resistance or something - is going to look at least somewhat fishy.

Xykon does not care about Tsukiko as an individual, and it's possible that he may even consider her expendable as a minion. But for her to die now would cast a lot of suspicion on what Redcloak is up to.

[Gnoman]

He directed her to research a key comonent of his plans for conquest, one that he would not want to fall into the wrong hands (after all, he does not want someone setting themselves up as a rival to him.) That alone shows that he has no small amount of use for her. Further, because she has that, he's going to be very concerned if she gets killed, as that means that the number of people that have had access to the core of his plan is now unknown. He would, at the very least, have her raised to find out who killed her and why.

[4GottenFamiliar]

Xykon only cares about either of them insofar as they can assist him in his major goals. He will always be highly suspicious of both of them (he is clearly incapable of actually trusting anyone) and he only allows them to live and serve him as long as they don't present any threat or conflicting independent thought. I don't honestly know why anyone is arguing over RC Vs. T, since there's no way RC is stupid enough to start something so suspicious under Xykon's nose (or lack there of...). Especially when he is hiding the phylactory. When has Redcloak ever shown such reckless disposition towards violent behavior? Especially when, as he said in 827, "Stupid risks are just that: stupid."

[4GottenFamiliar]

Come to think of it, Redcloak is probably the closest thing to a friend the Monster currently has nearby, if I were him, I would use that as an escape tactic.

[whitelaughter]

Easy counter-bluff "All of the Enchantment part of the ritual is in the Divine half. You just admitted you only see half the ritual, why would you assume that my half would use the same type of magic as the arcane half? Are you stupid?"

And then hope she rolls for crap on sense motive.
and then "only direct intervention of the Dark One will enslave the Snarl, which is the majority of wat my half of the spell does."

[whitelaughter]

Oh, I wasn't trying to argue that part. As has already been established, Tsukiko has more spell slots than hit points (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html) (hyperbole notwithstanding). I was just pointing out that Redcloak may well have most of his important spells still available.

In any case, his major advantages in any confrontation with Tsukiko would be significantly higher save DCs and a surprise round (I don't remember what mystic theurge saves are like).

Hardly. His major advantage is that Tsukiko surrounds herself with rebuke-able undead. Being torn apart by her own creations would be a fine end for Tsukiko.

[KoboldRevenge]

Get to Xykon first and tell him she was hiding the phylactery? I don't know.
Kill if you want, but don't take a deal. You have a new groove and should stick to it.

[Starhawk]

Redcloak:

He has the phylactery.

The spell is a conjuration spell. He knows the other half.

He's going to put the Snarl inside of Xykon, and then control him to manifest his deity into this plane.

And then stomp all the Azure Paladins into the next world to make the world safe for his goblins.

Yo Giant! You owe me a hard copy of the series if I'm right.

[WickedWizard17]

Ooh, weekend update! . . . CURSE WORDS I CAN'T SAY. CRAP. What we learned in SoD is about to come out!!!!! Oh my gods. Tsukiko, you're a smart cookie . . . Redcloak, you're royally screwed . . . DESTROY THAT CLOAK. IF YOU VALUE THAT CLOAK, DESTROY IT. Then when Xykon kills you, he can't give it to another hobgoblin! The Dark One can make a new one!!!!!

[rewinn]

Xykon does not care about the goblinoids so no he is not leaving a valuable ally behind just to knock out a few rebels.

That is a good point; however, RC's use of Tsukiko's failure to fulfill her anti-Resistance mission is still useful chaff in the battle over which one Xykon doesn't kill for funsies.


They might argue some more, but they totally aren't going to fight it out right now.

There's no telling what people will do if they're rushed or panic'd, but it does seem that both Tsukiko and RC would be better off taking their argument to daddy Xykon and fighting verbally before him.
Tsukiko can't be sure she's strong enough to defeat RC in a straight-up battle with him; RC is down on spells and half-surrounded by wights and can't be sure X wouldn't be suspicious at Tsukiko's death or disappearance.
Tsukiko seems confident that if she takes her information to Xykon, he'll be so pleased with her (sqeeee!). RC should feel confident he can string a strong enough explanation to keep Xykon from offing him.

Own tactical point: will RC feel safer trying to earn X's goodwill be showing that the phylactery has been found, or trying to remain essential by pretending it has not been found? Xykon *needs* the 10,000 goblinoids straining through the sewers, especially if he thinks the Resistance has the bauble, and killing RC is not going to improve their efficiency.

[Gholateg]

He directed her to research a key comonent of his plans for conquest, one that he would not want to fall into the wrong hands (after all, he does not want someone setting themselves up as a rival to him.) That alone shows that he has no small amount of use for her. Further, because she has that, he's going to be very concerned if she gets killed, as that means that the number of people that have had access to the core of his plan is now unknown. He would, at the very least, have her raised to find out who killed her and why.

She's got wizard levels no? Xy hates wizards on principal alone.
He does however, have a rather good eye (socket) for caster talent.
He's also proven that he doesn't give a rat's sneak attack radius about said talent.
I see Xy using her to understand the blueprints of the spellwork, then pats her head in a fatherly way, before draining her levels. I can see him dusting her for no other reason then it would be funny, and he's legitimately a bit weirded out by her necromantic leanings. That and she's failed more then RC has, without his "you need me for the spell" immunity.
"Yeah thanks for telling me how this works, but I'm not sharing this power with you, and the whole "Wanting to jump my bones" thing? BIT creepy, even for me." Ker-zap!

[Ksyr]

Come to think of it, Redcloak is probably the closest thing to a friend the Monster currently has nearby, if I were him, I would use that as an escape tactic.

No. SOD page 96. The monster will eat RC if he betrays Xykon. Edit again: RC don't know this so he could always try :)

Edit: Also, on a general notice, Xykon already knows the mantle gives the information and that it was given by the dark one to his high priest. He may or may not think that it can only be used by the high priest or a goblin cleric already.
If he don't then RC telling T can possibly increase RCs chance of survival because they need him a bit longer. Because the dark one may not allow a human and a lich to decide who his next high priest should be.

[Killer Angel]

A very clever girl, indeed...
But a not so smart one, to reveal it to Redcloack... unless she's got some aces up her sleeves (that will show in the next update?) to avoid deadly repercussions.

[TheExpat]

Count me among those pleasantly surprised by the sudden explosion of new panels. Thanks for everything you do, Giant!

[TheMeMan]

My thoughts:

She is dumb as a box of rocks, and has not told Xykon yet. And she will reveal said fact in a manner of "I'm going to tell Xykon right now!" At which point, Redcloak has :smallconfused: moment, and says: "Wait, you haven't told Xykon yet?"

We then find her dead, Redcloak tells Xykon a BS story about how she disappeared, who frankly won't give a damn as I'm certain Redcloak will tell him that before she left/disappeared she told him what the ritual was.

Or something of the sort.

[Brumski]

Called the bit about there being no written down divine half.

Yay me and logic :smallbiggrin: