Mid/Low level ToB Maneuvers that do good damage

[Talionis]

What are some of the most damaging level 5 or lower maneuvers? I'm just curious what maneuvers would be good say in an anti-magic field if you only could get level 5 maneuvers?

[NeoSeraphi]

Insightful Strike. It is unfairly easy to optimize. If you only have 5th level maneuvers, let's say you're a level 10 warblade. 16 Constitution, full ranks in Concentration. That's 1d20+16 right there. Add Skill Focus (Concentration), a masterwork item, Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind) and a +20 custom item and you have 1d20+43.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Insightful Strike. It is unfairly easy to optimize. If you only have 5th level maneuvers, let's say you're a level 10 warblade. 16 Constitution, full ranks in Concentration. That's 1d20+16 right there. Add Skill Focus (Concentration), a masterwork item, Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind) and a +20 custom item and you have 1d20+43.

That's a 3rd level maneuver. Greater Insightful Strike is 5th level.

[Oindoth]

Yeah, Insightful Strike is borked. Remember Masterwork items of concentration, the fact that you can have multiple custom items with differently typed bonuses, and that skill rank scales much better than strength. Add in the fact that, iirc, there is no limitation to adding Power Attack and its multipliers to it, and you've got yourself a killer.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yeah, Insightful Strike is borked. Remember Masterwork items of concentration, the fact that you can have multiple custom items with differently typed bonuses, and that skill rank scales much better than strength. Add in the fact that, iirc, there is no limitation to adding Power Attack and its multipliers to it, and you've got yourself a killer.

You can't Power Attack with it.

Your strength modifier, your weapon's magical properties (if any), and any other extra damage you normally deal do not modify this check (including extra damage from class abilities, feats, or spells).

Oh, and I was wrong. GIS is 6th level.

[NeoSeraphi]

That's a 3rd level maneuver. Greater Insightful Strike is 5th level.

Erm...


Oh, and I was wrong. GIS is 6th level.

Yeah. Anyway, insightful strike is a nice idea, letting you deal sweet damage based on your state of mind whether you're holding a scythe or a warhammer or a sickle, the problem is that skill checks and optimization of them were not designed with the ability to deal damage with them in mind. In order to make some skill checks you need to go as high as 40 DC, so they make it really easy.

Even so, I shudder to think what a level 12 warblade with Greater Insightful Strike could do with that dagger if his DM made the mistake of letting him take the Item Familiar feat.

[Big Fau]

It isn't too hard to get the lesser Insightful Strike up to the level of Strike of Perfect Clarity's damage output.

It's just difficult to do that while inside an AMF, like the OP asked for.


Divine Strike is a 4th level maneuver that does +8d8, which is actually really powerful. And the Mountain Hammer line is capable of doing some damage.

[Urpriest]

IIRC, most of the more damaging such maneuvers involve full attacks. Pouncing Charge is 5th level, and IIRC one of the Mongoose series fits the criteria as well. White Raven Tactics on yourself can also be pretty damaging.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dancing Mongoose and Pouncing charge are both level 5 maneuvers. So you can combine them.. and possibly leapt attack to get ridiculous damage.

[Toptomcat]

On the same note, the Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade line in Desert Sun is pretty good.

[Talionis]

Will all maneuvers work in an Anti-Magic field or do some of the maneuvers have subtypes that keep them from functioning in an antimagic field?

[Tvtyrant]

Another thing about Insightful Strike is you can expend a Psionic Focus to get a 15 on a concentration check, which you can refocus outside of combat. So once per combat you get at least a +15 to damage.

[Big Fau]

Will all maneuvers work in an Anti-Magic field or do some of the maneuvers have subtypes that keep them from functioning in an antimagic field?

Several maneuvers in the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand schools are supernatural abilities, and cannot be used in an AMF or used to affect creatures within an AMF. These maneuvers make up a little under half of those two schools, and less than a tenth of the total maneuvers in the book.

Every other maneuver is Ex in origin.

[Talionis]

Several maneuvers in the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand schools are supernatural abilities, and cannot be used in an AMF or used to affect creatures within an AMF. These maneuvers make up a little under half of those two schools, and less than a tenth of the total maneuvers in the book.

Every other maneuver is Ex in origin.

Thanks Big Fau, I thought I remembered it was that way.

[NeoSeraphi]

Another thing about Insightful Strike is you can expend a Psionic Focus to get a 15 on a concentration check, which you can refocus outside of combat. So once per combat you get at least a +15 to damage.

You need a power point reserve to gain psionic focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm) though. So only if you're a kashlatar or a psychic warrior/warblade or something.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is easily fixed with Wild Talent; but if you manage to get Hidden Talent approved you can get a 1st level power if your Cha is 11 or higher and 2 PP. Dimension hop is my favourite for this as free movement is never a bad thing, pay ~4000 GP and visit the Earth Node via backstory and you get 5 PP to fuel your power a total of 7 times a day.

[NeoSeraphi]

That is easily fixed with Wild Talent; but if you manage to get Wild Talent approved you can get a 1st level power if your Cha is 11 or higher and 2 PP. Dimension hop is my favourite for this as free movement is never a bad thing, pay ~4000 GP and visit the Earth Node via backstory and you get 5 PP to fuel your power a total of 7 times a day.

Er...I think you mean "Hidden Talent" for the second one, right?

[Fouredged Sword]

Also note that there is a vest that grants +20 to concentration checks 3 times per day. This was designed for casters so I think it is in one of the complete books, but not sure.

[Rubik]

Also note that there is a vest that grants +20 to concentration checks 3 times per day. This was designed for casters so I think it is in one of the complete books, but not sure.There's another one in the MIC that grants +5 constantly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Er...I think you mean "Hidden Talent" for the second one, right?

>_<.... yep, let me change that.

[Zaq]

Our party beatstick has found that Emerald Razor against most foes translates to "PA for full, you won't miss it," so in some ways, that's her most damaging maneuver.

Flanking Maneuver is fantastic if your party is built for it, especially if you have Island of Blades up.

Battle Leader's Charge + Leading the Charge adds some really nice damage. Unfortunately, the upgrade to BLC (War Leader's Charge) is 6th level, but you can't have it all. The two still stack nicely.

[Talionis]

Our party beatstick has found that Emerald Razor against most foes translates to "PA for full, you won't miss it," so in some ways, that's her most ...

interesting, I guess you can Power Attack in the same round you use a maneuver. Making the attack a touch attack is nice.

[Big Fau]

interesting, I guess you can Power Attack in the same round you use a maneuver. Making the attack a touch attack is nice.

Feats like Power Attack and Weapon Finesse work just fine with Strikes. The only time it won't work is for specific maneuvers, namely Insightful Strike and its Greater form.

[Zaq]

Feats like Power Attack and Weapon Finesse work just fine with Strikes. The only time it won't work is for specific maneuvers, namely Insightful Strike and its Greater form.

. . . Specifically, because Insightful Strike and Greater Insightful Strike replace the damage entirely, rather than using the normal formula (with some bonuses).

(I'm in total agreement with you, but I feel like that's important to specify.)

[Dusk Eclipse]

You can use Power Attack with any maneuver.

[Drathmar]

You can use Power Attack with any maneuver.

Nope, not the 2 Insightful Strikes, they specifically say that no feats or other various things can be used with them.

[Zaq]

Nope, not the 2 Insightful Strikes, they specifically say that no feats or other various things can be used with them.

Yes and no. You can take a penalty to your attack rolls using PA with Insightful Strike, but you won't do any extra damage as a result. 98% of the time, doing this is useless, but if you have other feats or similar abilities that trigger on "when you use Power Attack" (for instance, Brutal Strike), it can be relevant.

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes and no. You can take a penalty to your attack rolls using PA with Insightful Strike, but you won't do any extra damage as a result. 98% of the time, doing this is useless, but if you have other feats or similar abilities that trigger on "when you use Power Attack" (for instance, Brutal Strike), it can be relevant.

Well, sort of. See, the DC for the save from Brutal Strike is 10+the extra damage you get from the Power Attack feat. And you don't get any. So the DC for the save is 10. And it's Fortitude. That's the problem with those kinds of feats and Insightful Strike.

[Zaq]

Well, sort of. See, the DC for the save from Brutal Strike is 10+the extra damage you get from the Power Attack feat. And you don't get any. So the DC for the save is 10. And it's Fortitude. That's the problem with those kinds of feats and Insightful Strike.

I never said it was a GOOD idea, but technically, it is legal, and there are edge cases where it could conceivably come up.

For most practical purposes, yes, PA and IS are incompatible, but technically, there could be a time when you want to use 'em together.

[Kenneth]

bonecrusher is pretty good for extra dmg +4d6 and a +10 to confirm crits

then theres soaring rpaotr stikre +4 to attack and +6d6 ( i think?) dmg against a larger oppoent so basically 95% of all you go up against

I know somebody ealrier said divine stirke.. but i am going to re-emphasis that +8d8! AWESOME!

just as cool are white rave /strike/ of the boken sheidl +4d6 dmg and foe is flat footed!

the best is raidant charge =6d6 damage and you gain dr 10/-! YES PLEASE!!!

[navar100]

Insightful Strike. It is unfairly easy to optimize. If you only have 5th level maneuvers, let's say you're a level 10 warblade. 16 Constitution, full ranks in Concentration. That's 1d20+16 right there. Add Skill Focus (Concentration), a masterwork item, Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind) and a +20 custom item and you have 1d20+43.

Insightful Strike does not allow for extra damage from weapon used (not that masterwork adds to damage), feats, nor class abilities. Skill Focus works because that's not adding damage; it's just a bonus to a skill check. As for the +20 custom item, presumably for Concentration checks, not only is that entirely dependent on the DM allowing such a thing, it is very highly unlikely that would not be magical, so it wouldn't function in an Anti-Magic field.

Insightful Strike is still a good maneuver, just not as awesome as you're making it look. 1d20 + 16 is decent enough damage on its own. Add Skill Focus for 1d10 + 19, for a linear range of 20 to 39 damage on one attack. Since a warblade or swordsage using Diamond Mind would most likely have at least one of the saving throw maneuvers, Moment of Perfect Mind being the most likely candidate if only one, Skill Focus Concentration is worth the investment.

[Greenish]

Insightful Strike does not allow for extra damage from weapon used (not that masterwork adds to damage)It's a masterwork item of Concentrate. :smallamused:

[Philistine]

If I may ask a question of the OP - is there a particular reason you're looking for high-damage strikes as opposed to maneuvers that facilitate doing a lot of damage? I mean, if a Diamond Mind save replacer keeps your Warblade in the fight when a blown save would've sidelined him for rounds/CL, then from a certain point of view you could credit the save replacer with every point of damage he does for the rest of the fight. Or if you pop White Raven Tactics on your rogue flanking buddy, an extra full attack from him might do 24d6 at this level (assuming TWF with short swords). So, how critical is it to you that your maneuvers be direct damage strikes?

[NeoSeraphi]

Insightful Strike does not allow for extra damage from weapon used (not that masterwork adds to damage), feats, nor class abilities. Skill Focus works because that's not adding damage; it's just a bonus to a skill check. As for the +20 custom item, presumably for Concentration checks, not only is that entirely dependent on the DM allowing such a thing, it is very highly unlikely that would not be magical, so it wouldn't function in an Anti-Magic field.

Insightful Strike is still a good maneuver, just not as awesome as you're making it look. 1d20 + 16 is decent enough damage on its own. Add Skill Focus for 1d10 + 19, for a linear range of 20 to 39 damage on one attack. Since a warblade or swordsage using Diamond Mind would most likely have at least one of the saving throw maneuvers, Moment of Perfect Mind being the most likely candidate if only one, Skill Focus Concentration is worth the investment.

Masterwork items from the PHB. They add +2 to a skill check, and are not magical. A +20 custom item of Concentrate indeed would not work in an AMF. You can also take the Item Familiar feat in order to double your max ranks in Concentration (or something. You boost the skill by a large margin, I can't remember the exact rules right now and I'm too lazy to look them up).

The Blade Meditation feat adds +2 to a discipline's skill check, which is Concentration for Diamond Mind.

So that's 1d20+23 in an AMF (or a range of 24-43 damage), 1d20+43 with a +20 custom item and no AMF, and 1d20+56 with a +20 custom item and the Item Familiar feat.

[Talionis]

If I may ask a question of the OP - is there a particular reason you're looking for high-damage strikes as opposed to maneuvers that facilitate doing a lot of damage? I mean, if a Diamond Mind save replacer keeps your Warblade in the fight when a blown save would've sidelined him for rounds/CL, then from a certain point of view you could credit the save replacer with every point of damage he does for the rest of the fight. Or if you pop White Raven Tactics on your rogue flanking buddy, an extra full attack from him might do 24d6 at this level (assuming TWF with short swords). So, how critical is it to you that your maneuvers be direct damage strikes?

I was thinking of using Eldritch Glaive as my main attack and some of the buff manuevers to add to its effectiveness, but if I was in an antimagic field, I'd like to have some back up damage when I couldn't use my damage.

I presume I'll be taking a lot of the Defensive Manuevers anyway. But I'm pretty comfortable I know the decent defensive stuff.