Custom Ability Score Generation Tactics?

[Rossebay]

So, group usually uses 32 Point Buy for their score-rolling. We used to use the 4d6-lowest, roll 7 times and take 6 highest system, but we've since dropped that for favor of more balanced characters.

One system we used once was actually pretty damn interesting...

Roll 4d6, subtract lowest. The first score you roll is your strength. The second is Dexterity. The third, Constitution. Fourth, Intelligence, fifth is Wisdom, sixth is Charisma.

You do that three separate times, and generate three lists of scores.

You may then select one score set, and select one score. You re-roll that score, and you are stuck with the result.

We then played as Commoners for 1 level, getting adapted to our characters and their personalities before converting that level to an actual Class level.

Mind you, this didn't stop us from running normal optimized characters, but it made it a lot more novel.

[Mystify]

So, group usually uses 32 Point Buy for their score-rolling. We used to use the 4d6-lowest, roll 7 times and take 6 highest system, but we've since dropped that for favor of more balanced characters.

One system we used once was actually pretty damn interesting...

Roll 4d6, subtract lowest. The first score you roll is your strength. The second is Dexterity. The third, Constitution. Fourth, Intelligence, fifth is Wisdom, sixth is Charisma.

You do that three separate times, and generate three lists of scores.

You may then select one score set, and select one score. You re-roll that score, and you are stuck with the result.

We then played as Commoners for 1 level, getting adapted to our characters and their personalities before converting that level to an actual Class level.

Mind you, this didn't stop us from running normal optimized characters, but it made it a lot more novel.

I mainly dislike such organic systems in practice since you have to choose your class and role based on the stats you rolled, instead of what you want to play. If I want to play a sorcerer, and roll good str and con, but a low charisma, I can't play a proper sorcerer. Or how about a rouge. I want a nice, dexterous character, preferably intelligent and charismatic, with enough con to survive in combat. The chance of actually getting stats to back up the character is rather low.

[Rossebay]

I mainly dislike such organic systems in practice since you have to choose your class and role based on the stats you rolled, instead of what you want to play. If I want to play a sorcerer, and roll good str and con, but a low charisma, I can't play a proper sorcerer. Or how about a rouge. I want a nice, dexterous character, preferably intelligent and charismatic, with enough con to survive in combat. The chance of actually getting stats to back up the character is rather low.

The reason we used this mechanic was to encourage players to try new things. It worked surprisingly well.

The Ninja-player decided to play a Barbarian. The Rogue-user? A Hexblade. And our very own Duskblade decided to play a Fighter who specialized in generalizing.

[DarthPeleus]

The reason we used this mechanic was to encourage players to try new things. It worked surprisingly well.

The Ninja-player decided to play a Barbarian. The Rogue-user? A Hexblade. And our very own Duskblade decided to play a Fighter who specialized in generalizing.

Too many people with CGS (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComplacentGamingSyndrome)?

I know the feeling.

[Mystify]

The reason we used this mechanic was to encourage players to try new things. It worked surprisingly well.

The Ninja-player decided to play a Barbarian. The Rogue-user? A Hexblade. And our very own Duskblade decided to play a Fighter who specialized in generalizing.

I guess if that has been an issue for you. I generally play widely different characters anyways, but there is normally a character concept that tickles my fancy at any given moment, and being forced to do something else which may not correspond at all would annoy me.

[danzibr]

I'd always take something static over rolling. I have tons of builds which I haven't been able to actually play, so the being forced into something you usually don't do doesn't apply to me as I simply don't play enough D&D.

Really, I like point buy because nobody feels boned if they rolled poorly (even with rerolls and the like somebody always comes out on the bottom compared to others).

[Mystify]

I'd always take something static over rolling. I have tons of builds which I haven't been able to actually play, so the being forced into something you usually don't do doesn't apply to me as I simply don't play enough D&D.

Really, I like point buy because nobody feels boned if they rolled poorly (even with rerolls and the like somebody always comes out on the bottom compared to others).

But point buy generally smears MAD characters and boosts SAD, which is the opposite of what you want to happen.

[Rossebay]

But point buy generally smears MAD characters and boosts SAD, which is the opposite of what you want to happen.

Which is why you get 3 separate lists.

And if all of your scores are sub-par, you can roll a new set of 3.

[Mystify]

Which is why you get 3 separate lists.

And if all of your scores are sub-par, you can roll a new set of 3.

You misunderstand. I like rolled stats because it supports MAD characters much better. The only part of this I dislike is forcing the rolls to go into random slots. And I really wouldn't complain too much if forced to do this, I'd just take "how do I make a character to take advantage of these stats" as a challenge.

[Strormer]

We played 4d6 rolled eight times, drop the lowest die and the two lowest totals, with one free mulligan. It worked pretty well for our high power low op games. Then again I liked the old adnd system, 3d6 six times in order. Made for some crazy characters.
As a side note I now use point buy 35.

Edit: Forgot to mention when we rolled we rerolled all ones.

[Rossebay]

You misunderstand. I like rolled stats because it supports MAD characters much better. The only part of this I dislike is forcing the rolls to go into random slots. And I really wouldn't complain too much if forced to do this, I'd just take "how do I make a character to take advantage of these stats" as a challenge.

Yeah, I can see that. It was pretty challenging. I was DMing this game, and we started a new campaign soon after, but still. They definitely all opened up something new.

[Darth_Versity]

We usually use a 28 or 32 pt buy, but when we roll we use 2D6 + 6. It gives a minimum of 8 and a 1 in 36 chance of and 18. We then have the option of rerolling all the stats once, but must keep the second set.

[panaikhan]

In one campaign I played in, the DM used the old-school Darksun setup.
5D4 x6 for stats (no rerolls, place anywhere), starting level 3, level 1 equipment.
The campaign was low-magic and fairly brutal.

[Acanous]

Roll 3D6, 6 times, in order. No rerolls. We'll be running Tomb of Horrors, so don't worry if you get poor stats this sheet. You'll be rolling more shortly.

[Feytalist]

I used to play Living Greyhawk almost exclusively. Character creation was 25 point buy, and we liked it. So I'm kinda used to low powered characters.

Actually, an old DM of mine (non-Living Greyhawk games) used a ridiculously arcane method of score generation. I could never work out exactly what his formula was. Something like 3d6, reroll 1s and 2s, nothing under 8, choose 6 best results. Weird, but it looked like it worked.

[NikitaDarkstar]

I like rolling my scores if we're rolling with 4d6 or more. (We usually do 5d6 and re-roll ones with one of my DM's, we do like our high powered characters, but it's not for everyone.) But I detest being told what goes where, so to the point that I'd walk if anyone tried it. I mean really, if you're doing it that way the DM can just hand out pregenerated characters right away since you've just lost pretty much all control over character creation.

[Greenish]

But point buy generally smears MAD characters and boosts SAD, which is the opposite of what you want to happen.I'm not seeing it. At least using PB, SAD characters have to pay for their one high stat.

[PersonMan]

But point buy generally smears MAD characters and boosts SAD, which is the opposite of what you want to happen.

If you have really low (25, for example), maybe.

At, say, 32 PB you can get 16, 12, 14, 12, 14, 10, which is a fairly good set for a frontliner. SAD people have the benefit of being able to almost always have an 18 in their single stat, but apart from that, they gain little benefit from, say, increasing PB from 28 to 34, as they don't really need any other stats.

I think that PB around 30-34 points is good, as you can have enough points that, for example, deciding to take a 12 in Wisdom because your concept is fairly wise doesn't screw you over.

[Mystify]

I'm not seeing it. At least using PB, SAD characters have to pay for their one high stat.

But that one stat is all they care about, who cares what your other stats are. However, a MAD character needs many good stats, and while you can easily roll several good stats, you can't afford them in point buy. Unless you have such low point buy that nobody can afford an 18, the SAD characters will have their 18, and be happy, and pour everything left over into con. A MAD character needs a good plus in several stats, and hence can't afford an 18, so their primary stat takes a hit, and doesn't even have a chance of having a couple off-16 stats. People complain that monks suffer from MAD, and it kills the characters. With a point buy, you can never get a functional monk. With rolled stats, I have gotten enough base stats going that the monks worked out perfectly fine.
Sure, with point buy you can ensure everyone has a consistant set of stats, but that does not actually make the base characters balanced. All it does is amplify existing imbalances between classes. Yes, its random if you get good stats or not, but at least you have a chance of a viable MAD build.

[PersonMan]

But that one stat is all they care about, who cares what your other stats are. However, a MAD character needs many good stats, and while you can easily roll several good stats, you can't afford them in point buy. Unless you have such low point buy that nobody can afford an 18, the SAD characters will have their 18, and be happy, and pour everything left over into con. A MAD character needs a good plus in several stats, and hence can't afford an 18, so their primary stat takes a hit, and doesn't even have a chance of having a couple off-16 stats. People complain that monks suffer from MAD, and it kills the characters. With a point buy, you can never get a functional monk. With rolled stats, I have gotten enough base stats going that the monks worked out perfectly fine.
Sure, with point buy you can ensure everyone has a consistant set of stats, but that does not actually make the base characters balanced. All it does is amplify existing imbalances between classes. Yes, its random if you get good stats or not, but at least you have a chance of a viable MAD build.

Your point seems to consist of ignoring the possibility of giving MAD classes higher PB amounts and relying on getting lucky rolls. You can "never" give a monk 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 12 (only 32 PB, put the 12 in Cha and you have an alright bonus to everything), "never" give them 16, 16, 16, 14, 14, 10 (44 PB this time).

If, say, you roll stats, you might get a Monk with the following stats: 8, 11, 18, 14, 12, 5. Or 18, 6, 11, 10, 15, 10. Neither are all that good for a monk.

If you'll allow me to use the classic 'replace a few words of your argument and use it against you':

You can never get a working Monk by rolling stats - you always get too many low rolls. With PB and a DM willing to work with the players, you can buy an 18 in one score and a couple 15s. Rolling scores doesn't make the base characters balanced. All it does is amplify existing imbalances between classes. SAD characters only need 1 good roll and can just put the rest into other stats, but if you're MAD you need to hope the dice give you several statistically unlikely results. Yes, you have a specific number of points, but you always have the chance to get enough for good stats for a MAD character.

[Mystify]

Your point seems to consist of ignoring the possibility of giving MAD classes higher PB amounts and relying on getting lucky rolls. You can "never" give a monk 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 12 (only 32 PB, put the 12 in Cha and you have an alright bonus to everything), "never" give them 16, 16, 16, 14, 14, 10 (44 PB this time).

If, say, you roll stats, you might get a Monk with the following stats: 8, 11, 18, 14, 12, 5. Or 18, 6, 11, 10, 15, 10. Neither are all that good for a monk.

If you'll allow me to use the classic 'replace a few words of your argument and use it against you':

You can never get a working Monk by rolling stats - you always get too many low rolls. With PB and a DM willing to work with the players, you can buy an 18 in one score and a couple 15s. Rolling scores doesn't make the base characters balanced. All it does is amplify existing imbalances between classes. SAD characters only need 1 good roll and can just put the rest into other stats, but if you're MAD you need to hope the dice give you several statistically unlikely results. Yes, you have a specific number of points, but you always have the chance to get enough for good stats for a MAD character.
What is really going on is this:
normal point buy (amplified SAD vs. MAD)
which is surpassed by
rolled stats (amplifies SAD vs. MAD, but gives MAD a chance)
which is surpassed by
skewed point buy (just give the MAD character amazing stats, guaranteed, ignoring any premise of character stats being balanced against each other)

[Greenish]

But that one stat is all they care about, who cares what your other stats are. However, a MAD character needs many good stats, and while you can easily roll several good stats, you can't afford them in point buy.The probability of getting one good roll is way higher than the probability of getting several. Hence, rolling favours SAD.

There's also the fact that no class is truly SAD, at least in lower levels. Wizards might only need a good Int, but good Dex or Con (or even Cha) will still help them quite a bit.


Unless you have such low point buy that nobody can afford an 18, the SAD characters will have their 18, and be happy, and pour everything left over into con. A MAD character needs a good plus in several stats, and hence can't afford an 18, so their primary stat takes a hit, and doesn't even have a chance of having a couple off-16 stats.At least the SAD character paid for those stats, instead of randomly getting good everything, and the MAD character can get at least decent stats for what it needs.


With a point buy, you can never get a functional monk. With rolled stats, I have gotten enough base stats going that the monks worked out perfectly fine.MAD is hardly the only of monk's problems, and it's nothing that can't be solved by sufficiently high point-buy (which, incidentally, favours MAD characters over SAD).


Sure, with point buy you can ensure everyone has a consistant set of stats, but that does not actually make the base characters balanced.Rolling for stats does pretty much nothing for class balance, while increasing the overall imbalance. Class imbalance is something you can fix (houserules, preferring certain tier for all characters), rolled stats… okay, you can fix those, too. The fix is called "point-buy". :smallwink:

[Rossebay]

I usually treat monks as, "Oh, goodie, 3 18's and a 16! Now I can play a working monk!"

Whereas, if I get 2 good scores, I ususally throw them into either Strength and Constitution, or Dexterity and Constitution, and play a Shifter/Barbarian.

If I get 3 good stats, I'll go with Dexterity, Constitution, and a casting stat for Sorcerer or Wizard.

[Mystify]

MAD is hardly the only of monk's problems, and it's nothing that can't be solved by sufficiently high point-buy (which, incidentally, favours MAD characters over SAD).
Yes, lets give everyone all 18 stats, that will fix everything!

[Greenish]

Yes, lets give everyone all 18 stats, that will fix everything!That would, indeed, favour MAD over SAD, but there's no need to go quite that far. :smallamused:

[Alienist]

The problem with rolling is when you use a method like 4d6 take best 3, which generates 12.5 or so on average, so a total of ~75 per character...

And the average for the whole party is ~90.

So you know that at least one person is cheating, and very likely more than half the group is cheating, some by a significant margin.

I've seen lots and lots of "rolled" characters with every stat 15+
And absolutely none with every stat 10- ... Even though technically they are equally probable.

[Mystify]

I've seen lots and lots of "rolled" characters with every stat 15+
And absolutely none with every stat 10- ... Even though technically they are equally probable.
And if you are all sub-10, you qualify for a re-roll, so there is no reason you would see them with those stats.