[3.5] Fractional BAB and saves in Gestalt, a mini guide

[HeadlessMermaid]

How Fractional BAB/Saves, Gestalt and Common Sense interact

I've noticed that some people use fractional BAB/saves in Gestalt and manage to end up with a couple of saves higher than their level. Apparently, they use the numbers from the Fractional Base Bonuses table, taking the highest that applies from the two sides of gestalt at each level, and then add them up. This method is perhaps "RAW", and there's certainly nothing wrong with it if you fancy it. (So apologies for the smartass title above. :smallwink: )

However, the whole point of fractional BAB and saves is to avoid too high or too low numbers due to multiclassing. If you want the same effect in Gestalt, follow this simple procedure.

Write down a level-by-level breakdown for your classes. At each level, write Good, Average or Poor as appropriate (best of two sides applies) for your Fort, Ref, Will, and BAB bonuses. Then for each column separately, calculate your fractional BAB or save.

Example:

{table=head]Lvl|Classes|Fort|Ref|Will|BAB
1| Rogue//Fighter | Good| Good| Poor| Good
2| Rogue//Wizard | Poor| Good| Good| Average
3| Ranger//Wizard | Good| Good| Good| Good
4| Ranger//Fighter | Good| Good| Poor| Good
| Total: | 3G+1P| 4G| 2G+2P| 3G+1A
[/table]

Fort save is 3 Good + 1 Poor = +3.5 +0.33 = +3.83
Ref save is 4 Good = +4
Will save is 2 Good + 2 Poor = +3 +0.66 = +3.66
And BAB is 3 Good + 1 Average = +3 +0.75 = +3.75

Does that make sense? Doesn't it give nice rounded results, without spikes? Is the explanation clear enough? (Not sure how I could phrase it better, I hope the example is illuminating. Feel free to suggest a better wording.)

Note that with this method, your max BAB/save bonuses equal those of a non-gestalt class with good BAB/saves progression. Crazy dipping and multiclassing won't get you crazy high bonuses - but the other method will. This is completely intentional of course (and the whole point), I'm just pointing it out so that you don't get disappointed. :smallsmile:

[grarrrg]

[B]

Fort save is 3 Good + 1 Poor = +3.5 +0.33 = +3.83
Ref save is 4 Good = +4
Will save is 2 Good + 2 Poor = +3 +0.66 = +3.66
And BAB is 3 Good + 1 Average = +3 +0.75 = +3.75


Nothing wrong with it, but the example could be explained/expanded.

[type] save is X Good + Z Poor = (if Save Good>0, then +2, else 0), + .5X + .34Z (or if you like fractions (duh), then X/2 + Z/3)
Fort save is 3 Good + 1 Poor = +2 +1.5 +0.33 = +3.83

BAB is X Good + Y Average + Z Poor = X + .75Y + .5Z
BAB is 3 Good + 1 Average = +3 +0.75 + 0 = +3.75

Round ALL results DOWN.

[DonDuckie]

Seems to work.

How about simply running two columns for each of BAB, fort, ref, will?
And then just use the best of each column.

It has the same effect, and no fractions.

[GoatBoy]

I just total up the levels of good and bad on each side, add 0.5 for each good, 0.333... for each bad, and add 2 for every level which takes first level of a good save class. Yes, it results in absurdly high saves, but DM's who run gestalt games should know what they're getting into.

[herrhauptmann]

Seems to work.

How about simply running two columns for each of BAB, fort, ref, will?
And then just use the best of each column.

That's how I set mine up when I do a gestalt character (usually use excel)
{table=head]class|F|R|W|class|F|R|W
ftr|2.5|1/3|1/3|rogue|1/3|2.5|1/3
ranger|2.5|2.5|1/3|wiz|1/3|1/3|2.5
[/table]
Then do a THIRD set of F/R/W just to the right, with the best of each level. And at the bottom of that column, I have it set to give me the totals.

I usually don't bother with it when doing my BAB though. That's generally a bit simpler.

[zlefin]

if people are using the tables to get lots of extra +2s; and you wanna tone that down; i'd be tempted to just go with the simplest system of all:
assume all saves are good; and just give them out as per the monk table.
I mean, if they wanted good saves they'd get em anyways, cuz its gestalt; it's just a whoooole lot simpler this way.

[Johnboy]

Hey guys. So my group and my DM are kind of at odds about the save progression for multiclassed Gestalt characters.

For example. Im level 5 now. My level progression is as follows. My 6th level will make wiz progress to 6 and prestige swiftblade 1.

Wiz 1 Monk 1
Wiz 2 Monk 2
Wiz 3 Monk 2 Swashbuckler 1
Wiz 4 Monk 2 Swashbuckler 2
Wiz 5 Monk 2 Swashbuckler 3

Can someone work with me on how we should do this. He says to go by the fractional rules for progression in Unearthed Arcana page 72-73(dont recall which exactly.)

I understand how the fractions work I believe, but its the adding in other classes beyond the first two that confuses me. Ill be taking fighter levels later on in my progression as well so i need to get this down now before i drive my DM insane.

[eggynack]

You seem to be arguing under the assumption that fractional saves don't give multiple +2.5's, and that's explicitly wrong under the fractional save rules. You can house rule it to work that way, certainly, but it doesn't seem like the kinda thing you'd want to guide people towards.

Edit: To clarify, this fact is made clear by the examples provided within the sidebar. The example presented is a cleric 5/fighter 2, and they're shown with a fortitude save of +7 (which is actually +7.5). With your method, you would just scan down on good saves to seventh level, and the result would be +5.5, which obviously doesn't match. By contrast, if you use the method where you apply the first level bump with each new class, you'd get a good save taken to level 5, which is +4.5, and a good save taken to level 2, which is +3, for a total of 7.5. As that is consistent with the number given, it's clear that this is the methodology they're using. If anything, fractional saves exacerbate the problem you're presenting, because the first level of a good save is +2.5, which could theoretically get you a total bonus of +50, compared to +40 for the normal system.

[Johnboy]

Honestly Im a bit overly confused after trying to do this myself. Would you mind adding up the scores for me with the fractions as well so I can try to put together how you did it exactly?

[eggynack]

Honestly Im a bit overly confused after trying to do this myself. Would you mind adding up the scores for me with the fractions as well so I can try to put together how you did it exactly?
Well, you start with two levels of all good saves, which gets you to +3's in everything. For the three swashbuckler levels, the only relevant change is to fortitude saves, so you'd pop the 3.5 on there, and end up with a +6.5 in fortitude. Reflex is poor in both classes, so you'd get a +1 from the three levels of that progression, netting you a +4 in reflex. Will just maintains its good state, so you'd wind up with a +4.5 in will. The BAB is pretty easy, with +1.5 of monk average, added onto +3 of swashbuckler good. Alternatively, I think you can just multiply the levels of good save by .5, multiply the levels of poor save by 1/3, and add a +2 for a first level of good save. Should get the same result.

[Johnboy]

I just tried it again. But to be clear, this is what i have for my saves, does it look right to you?

LEVEL 5 Character Gestalt
Wiz 5 | Monk 2 | Swas 3 (Progression is in a previous post)

Fort 6.5
Ref 4
Will 4.5

[eggynack]

I just tried it again. But to be clear, this is what i have for my saves, does it look right to you?

LEVEL 5 Character Gestalt
Wiz 5 | Monk 2 | Swas 3 (Progression is in a previous post)

Fort 6.8333
Ref 6.5
Will 7
I don't think so, no. It'd probably be what I said, which is +6.5 fortitude, +4 reflex, and +4.5 will. To clarify the methodology, I'll start with will. There are five levels of good will save, which you multiply by .5 to get 2.5, and there's only one level in the progression where you get the first level bump (the monk bump occurs simultaneously, and thus doesn't matter), so you end up with +4.5. For fortitude, you again have 5 levels of good fortitude, for +2.5, except this time you get two first level bumps, one at level 1, and one at level 3, for a total of +6.5. Reflex has two levels of good, which you multiply by .5 for a +1, it has three levels of bad which you multiply by 1/3 to get a second +1, and there is a single first level bump at level 1, so you get +4.

[Emperor Tippy]

The simpliest way is as follows:

Max Saves are +12.

Add up all of your levels that give a good progression in that save. Look on the chart for what that level in a good save class is (the Monk has all good save progressions so just look at that). Now add up all levels that give a bad save progression in that save and then look at the bad save chart (Fighter has bad Fort and Reflex saves) and find what that level in a bad save gets you. Add those two numbers together.

You have Wizard at ever level and Wizard gives good Will saves, so your Will save would be +4 at level 5.

On the other side you have Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3. Both of those classes have good Fort saves. This means that you have +4 Fort saves at level 5.

Now on reflex saves you have two levels of good saves (from Monk) and three levels of bad saves. Your factional save should be +4.5 (rounds down to 4). This comes from +3 (3.5 for fractional) from two levels of Monk and then +1 from three levels of Swashbuckler or Wizard (both are poor).

[eggynack]

I actually tend to prefer the current fractional system, with its save bonuses for dipping. That rule tends to be advantageous for the more martially inclined classes, because those are the classes that bring about more multiclassing. Prestige classes are common on both ends of the spectrum, so that's relatively irrelevant on either end, and multiclassing on a caster build will usually disadvantage the caster far in excess of any save bonus. Thus, it's a rule that increases the balance of the game by a minuscule amount.