uhh.. so Orb of Force...

[Kenneth]

SO i just relaized that with this spell I am throwng a non-magical sphere of magic force at you at high veloctiy and making you hurt..





WHAT?!?!

[Urpriest]

It's the same stuff Force Golems and Force Dragons are made of.

[NeoSeraphi]

You think that's bad? Take a look at this:



Conjuration
These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance.

Emphasis mine. It is some messed up logic. The orb spells are just...ban-worthy.

[Kenneth]

.. you know.. some times I really really want to slap those 3rd ed desginers hard.



really really really hard and then eat their donuts

[ORione]

It's the same stuff Force Golems and Force Dragons are made of.

You broke my sarcasm detector. AIs there a book with force golems and force dragons, or are you joking?

[GoatBoy]

You broke my sarcasm detector. AIs there a book with force golems and force dragons, or are you joking?

Force dragons are in the Epic Level Handbook.

[pwykersotz]

Page 68 of the MM5, Force Golem. Fun stuff. Force Dragons are page 182 of the Epic Level Handbook though, and aren't made of force. They just have it as their breath weapon.

[ORione]

Force dragons are in the Epic Level Handbook.


Page 68 of the MM5, Force Golem. Fun stuff. Force Dragons are page 182 of the Epic Level Handbook though, and aren't made of force. They just have it as their breath weapon.

Huh. That's interesting. Thanks.

[sreservoir]

You broke my sarcasm detector. AIs there a book with force golems and force dragons, or are you joking?

yes. the answer is yes.

[pwykersotz]

But Orb of Force isn't that bad. After all, it's got a damage cap of 5d6 lower than the rest of the Orb spells, so it's balanced, right?

[legomaster00156]

But Orb of Force isn't that bad. After all, it's got a damage cap of 5d6 lower than the rest of the Orb spells, so it's balanced, right?
It's not the power of the spell. It's the fluff. You are throwing non-magical magical energy at your opponent.

[NeoSeraphi]

But Orb of Force isn't that bad. After all, it's got a damage cap of 5d6 lower than the rest of the Orb spells, so it's balanced, right?

No way, that makes it weaker! Plus, it doesn't have a rider effect! That's why WotC decided to make it medium range instead of Close like the other orbs! Now it's totally balanced!

[0nimaru]

I'm personally against all of the Orbs for making Evocation even more irrelevant. They ignore SR, have riders, and are part of the school already bloated with too many good things.

[DarthPeleus]

Requiring ranged touch attack is what defeats it.

There are some very handsome/beautiful people who will not allow these orbs to mar their faces.

[NeoSeraphi]

Requiring ranged touch attack is what defeats it.

...That, or surrounding yourself with an antimagic field and praying that your DM isn't going to put RAW over common sense...

[DarthPeleus]

...That, or surrounding yourself with an antimagic field and praying that your DM isn't going to put RAW over common sense...

Our group reasoned that the magic keeping the orb together gets suppressed, and the orb falls apart, neutralizing it.

We went for RAW.

Though antimagic field isn't the most practical solution. If blaster batman comes out of nowhere and uses some time stop+delay spell cheese, you might be screwed :smallfrown:

Unless you persist or contingent.

[Yora]

There are several long established facts about how magic works in D&D.

The Orb spells simply ignore three or four of them.

They shouldn't be conjuration either, as only acid is conjured and all other energy types are evocation.

With orbs, you can cast evocations even if you're a wizard who has evocations banned. Isn't that great?

[Venger]

what is a rider effect?

[NNescio]

what is a rider effect?

An additional effect that "rides" on the main effect of the spell.

i.e. Sickened/Dazed/Blinded/Entangled/Deafened on a failed save with most of the Orb spells.

[NeoSeraphi]

With orbs, you can cast evocations even if you're a wizard who has evocations banned. Isn't that great?

Wizards have been doing that since Core (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm).

[Tvtyrant]

Wizards have been doing that since Core (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm).

Except those can be shut down by an AMF, and allow SR, and do less damage than a normal spell using a higher level slot. Without Shadowcraft abilities its fairly useless.

[NeoSeraphi]

Except those can be shut down by an AMF, and allow SR, and do less damage than a normal spell using a higher level slot. Without Shadowcraft abilities its fairly useless.

I didn't say they were anywhere close to the orb spells, I just said that wizards can already cheat banning evocation. Though according to the description, they still do the exact same amount of damage as long as the creatures fail their Will saves.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I didn't say they were anywhere close to the orb spells, I just said that wizards can already cheat banning evocation. Though according to the description, they still do the exact same amount of damage as long as the creatures fail their Will saves.

So it's really good against giants and other brutes you can expect to face in a random encounter. Seriously, if, over four encounters, you don't encounter a single brute, something is wrong.

Just watch out when the DM gives them Steadfast Determination.

[DarthPeleus]

Except those can be shut down by an AMF, and allow SR, and do less damage than a normal spell using a higher level slot. Without Shadowcraft abilities its fairly useless.

What non epic, non Initiate of Mystra, non Prismatic <something>, not Wall of Force spell can't be shut down by AMF? ( I just know someone is going to be able to answer this )

Orbs are affected by AMF (Edit: Just remembered that instantaneous conjuration bit, but its debatable. For balance reasons, we went with the ruling I stated in my earlier post).

Orbs are also not AoE.

Wizard base attack SUCKS.

You're paying a high price to ignore SR.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What non epic, non Initiate of Mystra, non Prismatic <something>, not Wall of Force spell can't be shut down by AMF? ( I just know someone is going to be able to answer this )

Orbs are affected by AMF.

Orbs are also not AoE.

Wizard base attack SUCKS.

You're paying a high price to ignore SR.

Orbs aren't affected by AMFs. By the fluff of Conjuration, they are forces of energy directly called from a plane of existence. Orb of Force should be Evocation since there's no elemental plane of force, but I digress. A caster cannot use magic to call them while inside an AMF, but if launched into an AMF, they're fine.

As for the attack, bonus, have you looked at the touch AC of monsters? Dragons, giants, anything reliant on manufactured or natural armor...

[The-Mage-King]

What non epic, non Initiate of Mystra, non Prismatic <something>, not Wall of Force spell can't be shut down by AMF? ( I just know someone is going to be able to answer this )

Orbs are affected by AMF.

Orbs are also not AoE.

Wizard base attack SUCKS.

You're paying a high price to ignore SR.



...

Actually...


(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)


Any instantaneous Conjuration. Like the Orbs, which make perfect sense.


See, you're creating tiny rifts to the elemental planes, and drawing a bit of pure elemental fire, cold, electricity, ect. to attack with. Not much, just enough for one shot, but.. It should get the job done.



EDIT@Jade: There's probably a Demiplane of Force. One of Sound, too. Maybe that's where they come from.

[NeoSeraphi]

Orbs are affected by AMF.

Technically they're not. Technically.



Orbs are also not AoE.


True, but you can always just Twin or Split Ray if that's important to you.



Wizard base attack SUCKS.


Rays are generally really really easy to hit with, since monsters rely on natural armor to stay alive. If it really matters, a wizard can get +20 to hit with a first level spell (true strike) which she can fuse with an orb so she can cast in the same round (arcane fusion/greater arcane fusion)



You're paying a high price to ignore SR.

You also don't allow a saving throw, which means you ignore Evasion and Improved Evasion as well. It's actually a pretty sweet trade-off. Plus, of course, orb of force suffers no miss chance against incorporeal creatures.

[The-Mage-King]

Technically they're not. Technically.

Nothing "technical" about it. They're instantaneous Conjurations. That means they can be fired into an AMF and hit.

[DarthPeleus]

Orbs aren't affected by AMFs. By the fluff of Conjuration, they are forces of energy directly called from a plane of existence. Orb of Force should be Evocation since there's no elemental plane of force, but I digress. A caster cannot use magic to call them while inside an AMF, but if launched into an AMF, they're fine.

As for the attack, bonus, have you looked at the touch AC of monsters? Dragons, giants, anything reliant on manufactured or natural armor...

SCINTILLATING SCALES
Abjuration
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 2
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute/level
You invoke the words of this spell, and your
skin glistens and shimmers with a silvery
protective aura that makes you shine.
This spell transforms your natural
armor bonus to Armor Class into a
deflection bonus to your Armor Class.
While your overall Armor Class might
not change, the deflection bonus applies
to melee touch attacks and ranged touch
attacks, including incorporeal touch
attacks. If you have no natural armor
bonus, this spell has no effect.

Spell Comp

Dragons are still badass.

I had looked up monster AC earlier as a player and realized any melee build pretty much needs wraithstrike to kill anything :P

And for players, there are a few builds basically impervious to non epic magic.

And for some real fun, use Wall of Blades (Iron Heart). Did you just deflect that ray with your sword/spiked chain/bare hand/teeth?

[NNescio]

Our group reasoned that the magic keeping the orb together gets suppressed, and the orb falls apart, neutralizing it.

We went for RAW.

Though antimagic field isn't the most practical solution. If blaster batman comes out of nowhere and uses some time stop+delay spell cheese, you might be screwed :smallfrown:

Unless you persist or contingent.

That's not RAW. It's a rather reasonable houserule, but it. is. not. RAW.


An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might.

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

Orbs are instantaneous conjurations. Ergo they can be fired into an AMF, by RAW.

Which is kinda stupid, but that's what NeoSeraphi was referring to:


....and praying that your DM isn't going to put RAW over common sense...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Of course, by RAW, I think the Orb spells don't go back to their home planes unless you push them through a Plane Shift or Gate or something, because the spell effect ends as soon as you pull the orb out of the rift and throw it.

Of course, that's more of an unintentional side-effect, I don't know if it's ever explicitly called out like ignoring the AMF.

[Zaydos]

Orb of Force is just silly; it, and all of the orb spells, should have been Evocation.

SR no; eh it's just blasting, short of abusing metamagic reducers it's not that powerful (of course with abusing metamagic reducers it reaches critical mass). You can't even use Split Ray on it because it's not a ray (it is an Effect: 2" diameter orb) and normal plans for its abuse include Arcane Thesis and +0 metamagics which can break most any spell.


Also I present Orb of Force as strongest of all the orbs because it has no secondary effect and is therefore immune to Mettle :smallbiggrin:

[DarthPeleus]

That's not RAW. It's a rather reasonable houserule, but it. is. not. RAW.



Orbs are instantaneous conjurations. Ergo they can be fired into an AMF, by RAW.

Which is kinda stupid, but that's what NeoSeraphi was referring to:

You're right.



Creation
A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Seals the deal.

Though I can't see how one can assemble force through magic. Everything else? Maybe.

At least the touch AC thing still works ( I hope ).

Edit: What happens when the orbs go beyond their range I wonder? Lasts indefinitely, my eye.

[legomaster00156]

I personally enjoy the idea of creating a single Maximized, Empowered, etc. Orb of X, then just tossing it at enemies over and over again. It will still have all of the metamagic applied to it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

At least the touch AC thing still works ( I hope ).

Bahai, CR 6 demon. Touch AC 11. At this level, the wizard has +3 BAB and probably a +2 dex mod. Chance of failure, but it's low.

Balor, CR 20 demon. Touch AC 16. At this level, you have at least +8 BAB and at least a +4 dex mod (from Gloves of Dexerity). You succeed on a 4.

Bebilith, CR 10 demon. Touch AC 9. I'll stop typing out your bonus on attack at this point.

You want more? Look at devils, dragons, giants, dinosaurs, dire animals...

[Venger]

I personally enjoy the idea of creating a single Maximized, Empowered, etc. Orb of X, then just tossing it at enemies over and over again. It will still have all of the metamagic applied to it.

what I would really enjoy is having the DM do that to me with an NPC wizard when I was running a hulking hurler. I'd catch it and throw it back so ridiculously hard.

[DarthPeleus]

Bahai, CR 6 demon. Touch AC 11. At this level, the wizard has +3 BAB and probably a +2 dex mod. Chance of failure, but it's low.

Balor, CR 20 demon. Touch AC 16. At this level, you have at least +8 BAB and at least a +4 dex mod (from Gloves of Dexerity). You succeed on a 4.

Bebilith, CR 10 demon. Touch AC 9. I'll stop typing out your bonus on attack at this point.

You want more? Look at devils, dragons, giants, dinosaurs, dire animals...

Well first there's that spell I mentioned earlier, but that doesn't work with everyone.

Secondly, I was speaking from a PvP standpoint. I couldn't care less about faceless mooks. Sorry for the ambiguity.

[Hiro Protagonest]

what I would really enjoy is having the DM do that to me with an NPC wizard when I was running a hulking hurler. I'd catch it and throw it back so ridiculously hard.

...When I get around to doing my homebrew compendium (after I'm done with a fighter handbook I have in the works, I'm going to start a single thread in the Homebrew section for all my homebrew ideas), I must create the Deflect/Snatch Orb feats. Spell Reflection also works (sort of reminds you of a certain blonde-haired pointy-eared boy in green clothes with a pointy green hat and a sword and shield, reflecting Orbs of Lightning with his sword...).

Edit: @^: PVP isn't a very good way of testing power. Plus, any melee character without miss chance.

[NeoSeraphi]

I personally enjoy the idea of creating a single Maximized, Empowered, etc. Orb of X, then just tossing it at enemies over and over again. It will still have all of the metamagic applied to it.

Have I got a thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) for you.

[DarthPeleus]

...When I get around to doing my homebrew compendium (after I'm done with a fighter handbook I have in the works, I'm going to start a single thread in the Homebrew section for all my homebrew ideas), I must create the Deflect/Snatch Orb feats. Spell Reflection also works (sort of reminds you of a certain blonde-haired pointy-eared boy in green clothes with a pointy green hat and a sword and shield, reflecting Orbs of Lightning with his sword...).

Edit: @^: PVP isn't a very good way of testing power. Plus, any melee character without miss chance.

Every dangerous NPC we fight in our campaigns is a DMPC. We got nuked by a Red Wizard once. TPK.

What do you mean by the miss chance thing? I must be missing something there.

[NNescio]

Well first there's that spell I mentioned earlier, but that doesn't work with everyone.

Dragons' buffs are somewhat vulnerable to dispels, as they almost always have a caster level lower than their CR (or even CR-4, since the 'recommended' CR for a boss-level encounter can go up to ECL+4).

Not that they can't jack up their CL through the roof before buffing themselves, but that takes a little bit more effort, and well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander (PC casters).

[DarthPeleus]

Dragons' buffs are somewhat vulnerable to dispels, as they almost always have a caster level lower than their CR (or even CR-4, since the 'recommended' CR for a boss-level encounter can go up to ECL+4).

Not that they can't jack up their CL through the roof before buffing themselves, but that takes a little bit more effort, and well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander (PC casters).

Good point.

[erikun]

SO i just relaized that with this spell I am throwng a non-magical sphere of magic force at you at high veloctiy and making you hurt..
Don't be silly. 300 feet in 6 seconds (the maximum range at level 20) only works out to a little over 15 mph. It's considerably less at lower levels, with only 170 feet when you first get it. Throwing a punch or a sword swing is probably quite a bit faster, to say nothing about an arrow.

[legomaster00156]

Don't be silly. 300 feet in 6 seconds (the maximum range at level 20) only works out to a little over 15 mph. It's considerably less at lower levels, with only 170 feet when you first get it. Throwing a punch or a sword swing is probably quite a bit faster, to say nothing about an arrow.
You may want to double-check your math.

[NeoSeraphi]

Don't be silly. 300 feet in 6 seconds (the maximum range at level 20) only works out to a little over 15 mph. It's considerably less at lower levels, with only 170 feet when you first get it. Throwing a punch or a sword swing is probably quite a bit faster, to say nothing about an arrow.

6 seconds is your whole round. An orb of force requires a standard action to cast. So it's actually 300 feet in 3 seconds.

[absolmorph]

Orbs aren't affected by AMFs. By the fluff of Conjuration, they are forces of energy directly called from a plane of existence. Orb of Force should be Evocation since there's no elemental plane of force, but I digress. A caster cannot use magic to call them while inside an AMF, but if launched into an AMF, they're fine.

As for the attack, bonus, have you looked at the touch AC of monsters? Dragons, giants, anything reliant on manufactured or natural armor...
... What's the elemental plane of acid like? :smalleek:

[NNescio]

... What's the elemental plane of acid like? :smalleek:

...Lots and lot of protons?

Joke aside, try the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze.

[Killer Angel]

Bahai, CR 6 demon. Touch AC 11. At this level, the wizard has +3 BAB and probably a +2 dex mod. Chance of failure, but it's low.

Balor, CR 20 demon. Touch AC 16. At this level, you have at least +8 BAB and at least a +4 dex mod (from Gloves of Dexerity). You succeed on a 4.

Bebilith, CR 10 demon. Touch AC 9. I'll stop typing out your bonus on attack at this point.



I was speaking from a PvP standpoint. I couldn't care less about faceless mooks.

Though I wouldn't call "mook" a balor... :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

I fluff orbs as being extremely volatile, low-sentience elementals. They are assembled locally and "programmed" with one directive - to charge at their target and transfer their energy on impact.

It explains quite a few of the quirks with the spells - such as why they are ranged touch attacks (you aren't actually "throwing" them, merely pointing at the direction they should charge in), why they do as much damage as magical fire/force/sonic etc. (because they are elementals) and why they can persist in AMF and ignore SR (they aren't "summoned.")

Also, note that evocation fluff is also unclear on whether the energy comes from another plane or not. IIRC, Tome of Magic has a line about fireballs being powered by the Plane of Fire.


Force dragons are in the Epic Level Handbook.

And, by extension, the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon)

[gkathellar]

Well first there's that spell I mentioned earlier, but that doesn't work with everyone.

Ah yes, the old, "It's too vulnerable to wizards? I guess the logical solution is to give it wizard spellcasting!" standby.

[Qwertystop]

I fluff orbs as being extremely volatile, low-sentience elementals. They are assembled locally and "programmed" with one directive - to charge at their target and transfer their energy on impact.

It explains quite a few of the quirks with the spells - such as why they are ranged touch attacks (you aren't actually "throwing" them, merely pointing at the direction they should charge in), why they do as much damage as magical fire/force/sonic etc. (because they are elementals) and why they can persist in AMF and ignore SR (they aren't "summoned.")

Nice explanation!

"You! Fire-thing! I created you, now run at that monster and smash into it!"
"Fwoosh?"
"Yes, I know that's not a very fulfilling life. Get going!"

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah yes, the old, "It's too vulnerable to wizards? I guess the logical solution is to give it wizard spellcasting!" standby.

Er, but dragons do get sorcerer spellcasting. It's not optional or DM choice, it's just part of their MM entry. And scintillating scales was pretty much written for dragons.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's in the Elemental Plane of Water, I think. Riverine (stormwrack) isn't stopped by antimagic fields, being a material... so it's a weaker version of that stuff that you are conjuring, without the associated water near it to keep it cohesive for a long period of time.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's in the Elemental Plane of Water, I think. Riverine (stormwrack) isn't stopped by antimagic fields, being a material... so it's a weaker version of that stuff that you are conjuring, without the associated water near it to keep it cohesive for a long period of time.

[FafnerMorell]

The reason why Orb of Force gets to avoid all the normal rules of magic:


It's science; it works, bitches!!

[Chronos]

I personally enjoy the idea of creating a single Maximized, Empowered, etc. Orb of X, then just tossing it at enemies over and over again. It will still have all of the metamagic applied to it.Ah, but by the same argument that leads to them ignoring spell resistance, you also shouldn't be able to Maximize or Empower an orb spell. The spell itself doesn't actually do any damage; it's just creating a nonmagical object, and that nonmagical object does the damage. If you can maximize an orb spell, then I want a greatsword made with Maximized True Creation, that always rolls a 12.

And by the rules, an Orb of Force doesn't just fall apart after it hits. Things made by instantaneous conjurations persist until they're destroyed. OK, most of the other orbs are probably destroyed by the impact or shortly thereafter, but it's really, really hard to destroy things made out of force: You pretty much need Disintegrate or one of a very short list of other effects. So your rogue should always carry around a few Lesser Orbs of Force to throw at things, for easy ranged touch sneak attacks that ignore incorporeality. After the battle, pick them up and put them away, to be thrown again later.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah, but by the same argument that leads to them ignoring spell resistance, you also shouldn't be able to Maximize or Empower an orb spell. The spell itself doesn't actually do any damage; it's just creating a nonmagical object, and that nonmagical object does the damage. If you can maximize an orb spell, then I want a greatsword made with Maximized True Creation, that always rolls a 12.

And by the rules, an Orb of Force doesn't just fall apart after it hits. Things made by instantaneous conjurations persist until they're destroyed. OK, most of the other orbs are probably destroyed by the impact or shortly thereafter, but it's really, really hard to destroy things made out of force: You pretty much need Disintegrate or one of a very short list of other effects. So your rogue should always carry around a few Lesser Orbs of Force to throw at things, for easy ranged touch sneak attacks that ignore incorporeality. After the battle, pick them up and put them away, to be thrown again later.

This is just...ugh. Way to go, WotC. I cannot use RAW at all to debunk this argument. Stupid (Creation) subschool...

[Tyndmyr]

This is just...ugh. Way to go, WotC. I cannot use RAW at all to debunk this argument. Stupid (Creation) subschool...

Negative. Maximize only affects numeric components of the spell. Not numeric effects at some later date in time.

[Doug Lampert]

Edit: What happens when the orbs go beyond their range I wonder? Lasts indefinitely, my eye.

Obviously they fall harmlessly to the ground and can then be picked up and used to hit things. Don't ask how much damage they do when used that way. That way lies madness, it's as bad as asking why you can't get the 20d6 PURELY NONMATICAL acid used in an acid orb and store it in an acid proof container to throw at things.

Or asking how non-magical cold/fire/whatever manages a rider effect when nonmagical damage of those types doesn't have any rider. Or just paying any attention to any part of the fluff on orb spells.

The orb spells exist because someone decided they didn't like their conjurer who'd banned evocation being inconvienenced by that choice, oh, and they didn't want them to have trouble with SR or saves or AMF either, noticing that instantanous conjuration is immune to those things and then making up the spells without regard to ANY of the other rules or fluff dealing with instantaneous conjurations.

I'm shocked they don't do 100 damage per caster level myself, appearantly the designer did have SOME shame.

[arguskos]

...Lots and lot of protons?

Joke aside, try the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze.
Actually, the four main energy types (Acid, Elec, Fire, Cold) tie to the four primary elemental planes in the following configuration (at least, last I checked):

Earth-Acid
Air-Elec
Water-Cold
Fire-Fire

The Para- and Quasi-Elemental Planes do not tie directly, with a few exceptions. If you use the Para-Elemental Plane of Ice, it obviously replaces Water above. If you use the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning, it replaces Air above. I know of no plane that officially replaces Earth as the source of Acid, nor do I particularly think there's a better one. I kinda like Earth=Acid. That's juts me though.

[Qwertystop]

Actually, the four main energy types (Acid, Elec, Fire, Cold) tie to the four primary elemental planes in the following configuration (at least, last I checked):

Earth-Acid
Air-Elec
Water-Cold
Fire-Fire

The Para- and Quasi-Elemental Planes do not tie directly, with a few exceptions. If you use the Para-Elemental Plane of Ice, it obviously replaces Water above. If you use the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning, it replaces Air above. I know of no plane that officially replaces Earth as the source of Acid, nor do I particularly think there's a better one. I kinda like Earth=Acid. That's juts me though.

Ooze could fit Acid.

[Kenneth]

This is just...ugh. Way to go, WotC. I cannot use RAW at all to debunk this argument. Stupid (Creation) subschool...

WoTC are teh best evah!!


the ncie thing about RAW, is you can proceed to drop an orb of force over teh head of an enemy and deal that damage all over again!

same with orb of fire, cold, etc.. they are just 'nonmagical' or that roll around untill destroyed.. Heck teach soem kids to play soccer with that orb of sound!

[Psyren]

If you can maximize an orb spell, then I want a greatsword made with Maximized True Creation, that always rolls a 12.

Sure, you can waste your slots on that; just leave my orbs alone :smalltongue:

[NNescio]

Actually, the four main energy types (Acid, Elec, Fire, Cold) tie to the four primary elemental planes in the following configuration (at least, last I checked):

Earth-Acid
Air-Elec
Water-Cold
Fire-Fire

The Para- and Quasi-Elemental Planes do not tie directly, with a few exceptions. If you use the Para-Elemental Plane of Ice, it obviously replaces Water above. If you use the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning, it replaces Air above. I know of no plane that officially replaces Earth as the source of Acid, nor do I particularly think there's a better one. I kinda like Earth=Acid. That's juts me though.

The Paraelemental Plane of Ooze has the Bile Sea (where it nears the Plane of Water), which "effectively serves as a semi-plane of acid." (IIRC, the line is from "Manual of the Planes(AD&D)", or maybe "The Inner Planes") It also has the Stagnant Sea, which borders the Paraelemental Plane of Salt, and has ooze "caustic enough to corrode even magical metal."

That said, 3e/3.5e technically doesn't have the paraelemental planes, as it is conspicuously absent from its version of the Manual of the Planes.

[dextercorvia]

This is just...ugh. Way to go, WotC. I cannot use RAW at all to debunk this argument. Stupid (Creation) subschool...

The damage of an Orb spell is an effect of the spell -- its listed right there in the spell description.:smallbiggrin:

[Roaan]

So I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet . . . (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer?pg=1)

The mailman is an amazing way to take Orb of Force and turn it into more like "Orb of Doom". At 16th level (upon completing the incantrix PrC) you could cast a Twinned-Maximized-Empowered Orb of Force as an 8th level spell for 180 damage as a ranged touch attack (No SR no Save). That's a 4th level spell that does 10d6 (maximized to 60 for +1) with an empower (60x1.5 = 90 for +1) and then twinned (90x2 = 180 for +2). Only "downside" is that you have to make two attack rolls.

[mikau013]

So would that mean that if I created 15 orbs I can then hurl them all with telekinesis?

[Doug Lampert]

So I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet . . . (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer?pg=1)

The mailman is an amazing way to take Orb of Force and turn it into more like "Orb of Doom". At 16th level (upon completing the incantrix PrC) you could cast a Twinned-Maximized-Empowered Orb of Force as an 8th level spell for 180 damage as a ranged touch attack (No SR no Save). That's a 4th level spell that does 10d6 (maximized to 60 for +1) with an empower (60x1.5 = 90 for +1) and then twinned (90x2 = 180 for +2). Only "downside" is that you have to make two attack rolls.

I'm pretty sure someone had linked the mailman earlier in the thread.

But in any case that's NOT how empower stacks with maximize.

If it DID work that way (which it doesn't) it wouldn't increase the damage at all since the damage of the maximized spell is not a variable effect!

But what it actually does is 60+(10d6)/2 damage.

[Doug Lampert]

So would that mean that if I created 15 orbs I can then hurl them all with telekinesis?

That would depend on how much a non-magical magical orb of force wieghs, now wouldn't it?

[Urpriest]

Whether or not the Orb sticks around afterwards is irrelevant. The spell description doesn't say it's tangible, or visible after it hits its target, or deals its damage any other time than when it is first thrown. Since it's not a real object, it behaves exactly like the spell description says. After all, it's not like anybody thinks you can use Melf's Acid Arrow to fill flasks of acid, despite it also being an SR: No Instantaneous Conjuration. (Ok technically not Instantaneous, but only because the effect has a duration, not the acid itself. Any spell that blasts someone with sand would be a better example. You can't go use the sand for something afterwards).

[Qwertystop]

But in any case that's NOT how empower stacks with maximize.

Actually, when the order effects are applied in matters, you can pick whichever order you prefer. If he wants, it could stack that way. Of course, that would make Empower do nothing, but he could if he wanted to. In the other order (Empower then Maximize), you end up with (Max((10d6)*1.5)), which is 90. He got the number right even though he did the math wrong.

I don't see how you got your number.

[Urpriest]

Actually, when the order effects are applied in matters, you can pick whichever order you prefer. If he wants, it could stack that way. Of course, that would make Empower do nothing, but he could if he wanted to. In the other order (Empower then Maximize), you end up with (Max((10d6)*1.5)), which is 90. He got the number right even though he did the math wrong.

I don't see how you got your number.

Empower and Maximize explicitly don't stack like that. Read the feats.

[INoKnowNames]

SO i just relaized that with this spell I am throwng a non-magical sphere of magic force at you at high veloctiy and making you hurt..





WHAT?!?!

Honestly, I don't see what's hard to get. You use magic to allow you to gather energy inbetween your hands, compress it into spherical form, and then you throw it. Standard Stuff. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Kamehamehadoken)

[Qwertystop]

Empower and Maximize explicitly don't stack like that. Read the feats.

Ah, thanks. I somehow forgot that clause.

[Zeful]

Honestly, I don't see what's hard to get. You use magic to allow you to gather energy inbetween your hands, compress it into spherical form, and then you throw it. Standard Stuff. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Kamehamehadoken)

Except that the Orb spells first do not act like mundane objects. Acid is a liquid, fire, lightning, cold, sound and force are all energy types, not objects, none of them should be viable for the "Orb of X" spells, because they wouldn't naturally form orbs. Secondly, your description; that's Evocation pure and simple. Thirdly, from a perspective of intelligent game design, balance, and something called choice, the Orb of X spells are so poorly designed from every angle that it should be an automatic ban in every game that's includes any form of consequences for the player's choices. They just don't add anything worthwhile to play, and only take away from choice (Specializing in Conjuration is now a calculation, something that mathematically improves your character rather than offering any meaningful choice).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Except that the Orb spells first do not act like mundane objects. Acid is a liquid, fire, lightning, cold, sound and force are all energy types, not objects, none of them should be viable for the "Orb of X" spells, because they wouldn't naturally form orbs. Secondly, your description; that's Evocation pure and simple. Thirdly, from a perspective of intelligent game design, balance, and something called choice, the Orb of X spells are so poorly designed from every angle that it should be an automatic ban in every game that's includes any form of consequences for the player's choices. They just don't add anything worthwhile to play, and only take away from choice (Specializing in Conjuration is now a calculation, something that mathematically improves your character rather than offering any meaningful choice).

Actually, acid is the domain of conjuration.

[Zeful]

Actually, acid is the domain of conjuration.

You make it sound like that's relevant to any of my complaints.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You make it sound like that's relevant to any of my complaints.

Alright then. You're conjuring an orb of a pure element from a plane of existence, and hurling it at your foe, at which point it dissipates (even the force one. Don't ask me how it works, it's magic).

[Psyren]

Nitpick: You're not actually hurling it (if you were, it would be a ranged attack.) The spell description back this up: "An orb of acid about 2 inches across shoots from your palm..."

[Hirax]

I guess it isn't too much of a stretch to say that part of the spell is summoning some wind from the plane of air to propel the orb. :smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

Na, you just create an already in motion elemental pinball and Newtons 3rd law applies. :smallwink:

And, except for force, they are all balls of acid which deal energy damage matching their name.

[Chronos]

Whether or not the Orb sticks around afterwards is irrelevant. The spell description doesn't say it's tangible, or visible after it hits its target, or deals its damage any other time than when it is first thrown. Since it's not a real object, it behaves exactly like the spell description says.Except that, according to the rules, it's the result of an instantaneous-duration Conjuration (Creation) spell, and hence, it is a real object. This is an extraordinarily silly rule, in this context, but that is what the rule is. If you want to houserule it otherwise, I think everyone in this thread would agree with you, but it would, in fact, be a houserule.

[Mystify]

Yeah, I never understood the logic of "Well, we added spell resistance so things can have a chance of resisting spellcasters, now lets give the spellcasters a dozen ways to get around it so tis meaningless".

The orb spells are a particularly horrible example of "lets forget all about putting limits on spellcasters"

[Eldan]

Nice explanation!

"You! Fire-thing! I created you, now run at that monster and smash into it!"
"Fwoosh?"
"Yes, I know that's not a very fulfilling life. Get going!"

Great. Now I want to start an orb-petting zoo.:smalltongue:

[Heliomance]

You think that's bad? Take a look at this:



Emphasis mine. It is some messed up logic. The orb spells are just...ban-worthy.

They're not banworthy. They just need moving to Evocation, and changing so that they allow SR.

[Killer Angel]

Heck teach soem kids to play soccer with that orb of sound!

Here you are (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nxxWzPSXso). :smalltongue:

[INoKnowNames]

*snip*

Um... wow.

I was kinda operating under a completely different mindset.... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)

Seriously, I can't be the only one that stumbled upon the spells and instantly thought -Kamehameha- or -Hadoken- or a similar type of move.


Here you are (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nxxWzPSXso). :smalltongue:

Apparently, I need to start playing Soccer.

[Zeful]

Um... wow.

I was kinda operating under a completely different mindset.... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)

Seriously, I can't be the only one that stumbled upon the spells and instantly thought -Kamehameha- or -Hadoken- or a similar type of move.

Probably not, but by the time I came across these spells, I had learned enough about good game design to instantly know spectacularly bad game design when I saw it, and any novelty in the fluff was completely subsumed by terrible game design decisions behind the spells. They aren't the worst designed spells in D&D (As they can be salvaged, just make them Evocation), but they are spells that do not improve the game, which is more than enough for me to rail against their existence.

[DigoDragon]

I'm personally against all of the Orbs for making Evocation even more irrelevant. They ignore SR, have riders, and are part of the school already bloated with too many good things.

Could always houserule the orb spells as Evocation school spells. It's not like the Conjuration school is going to miss them. I tried that houserule once and it led to someone making a slightly more effective Evocation specialist. :smallsmile:

[vegetalss4]

Nitpick: You're not actually hurling it (if you were, it would be a ranged attack.) The spell description back this up: "An orb of acid about 2 inches across shoots from your palm..."

Whether something is a ranged attack or a ranged touch attack has nothing to do with if you throw it or not. It is decided by whether the attack could be stopped by armor or if it just transfers the damage through that.
So a thrown ball made of lightning = ranged touch attack since it zaps the wearer of the armor if it touches it, while a stell spike shot at someone = normal ranged attack since the armor could deflect it.

The fact that the Orb of X spells actually are shot and not thrown is not relevant to the above.

[Eldariel]

Except those can be shut down by an AMF, and allow SR, and do less damage than a normal spell using a higher level slot. Without Shadowcraft abilities its fairly useless.

Well, useless for replicating damage effects, at any rate.

[Aotrs Commander]

I simply work on the basis the Orb lines are nothing more than making an equivilent to a blaster rifle or a phaser or a effect, but by using magic to fire a bolt, instead of technology or biology.

Energy isn't inherently magical, after all, so there's no reason [I]Orb of Force shouldn't a bolt of entirely non-magical energy that just happens to have been artifically created by magic. (After all, if you spell to start a fire, the fire itself is not magical.) The end results of the Creation lines create nonmagical objects constructed by magic in the same fashion, so I don't think it's even out of line for the Conjuration school.

It even stands to reason that creating non-magical energy is much more difficult (it terms of magical energy expended to output effect) than creating magical energy, which is why it's comparitvely easy to make a Fireball with a big area-effect, but you can't do the same with an Orb spell using non-magic fire, you can only manage a bolt like sci-fi energy weapon.



It's worth noting in back in AD&D, there was an occasional split between magical and nonmagical energy (fire, for example), but this was lost in 3.x. I think it would have better served to have noted a difference (e.g. something might be immune to non-magic fire, but not magic fire). This is sort of tacitly covered by SR, but I think it was perhaps a bit too binary; though admittedly, the occasions when comes up are sufficiently small only pedants like me would likely find it that useful.

[Rubik]

They're not banworthy. They just need moving to Evocation,True.


and changing so that they allow SR.Not so true. Evocation doesn't get nice things, and it should.

[edit] Also, note that everything on a given elemental plane is made from that element. Yes, that means that on the plane of fire you have air and water that are made of fire. That's how the orbs work through an AMF, since you can jaunt to that plane (except force, but various force effects are immune to AMFs anyway) and use antimagic, and you won't suddenly suppress the parts of that plane that the field touches.

[NeoSeraphi]

Not so true. Evocation doesn't get nice things, and it should.


That's no reason to give a spell the ability to ignore SR. Spell resistance is all about a creature's natural immunity to magic, and evocation is one of the more "magical" schools of magic. (The less "magical" ones are conjuration and illusion, which is why they ignore SR)

Making a spell that is clearly magical ignore SR simply because you feel that evokers shouldn't have to put up with SR all the time is what led to the orbs being created in the first place. Magic should follow all the normal rules it is required to follow, not contradict itself because "it's magic".

[Psyren]

Not so true. Evocation doesn't get nice things, and it should.


I'd merge it with Abjuration personally. They fit each other very conceptually (manipulate energy). And it would also consolidate the vast majority of [Force] spells under one sensible banner.

[Big Fau]

I'd merge it with Abjuration personally. They fit each other very conceptually (manipulate energy). And it would also consolidate the vast majority of [Force] spells under one sensible banner.

I've seen someone over at BG talk about condensing the schools of magic to 5 basic ones. IIRC it was to fold Evocation and Conjuration into each other, then do the same with Abjuration/Divination, Transmutation/Necromancy, Illusion/Enchantment, and then have a Universal school.

[Roaan]

Empower and Maximize explicitly don't stack like that. Read the feats.

According to the SRD they can be used together, but don't explicitly "stack".



An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.


Now the math becomes (60 + (10d6 * .5))x2 for a Twin-Max-Powered Orb of Force. Making it do anywhere between 130~180 damage (average 155)

[Rubik]

I'd merge it with Abjuration personally. They fit each other very conceptually (manipulate energy). And it would also consolidate the vast majority of [Force] spells under one sensible banner.That, and it would make the resulting school considerably more powerful and more useful, to the point where it might actually be, y'know, powerful and useful.

I approve.

[Psyren]

That, and it would make the resulting school considerably more powerful and more useful, to the point where it might actually be, y'know, powerful and useful.

I approve.

Hey, it worked for psionics :smallwink:


I've seen someone over at BG talk about condensing the schools of magic to 5 basic ones. IIRC it was to fold Evocation and Conjuration into each other, then do the same with Abjuration/Divination, Transmutation/Necromancy, Illusion/Enchantment, and then have a Universal school.

Yeah - and then just require one to be banned instead of two.

But I'm loathe to merge Illusion and Enchantment; other than the shadow spells, you'd have the same problem of the school being predominantly will saves. It also clusters the will saves together, when I think every school should at least be able to target all three. And I don't think Conjuration needs to be merged with anything, it's big enough already.

Maybe I'd merge Enchantment and Divination...

[Qwertystop]

Illusion and Enchantment fit thematically (deception). Also, dont forget the various Phantasms. Those usually target Will and Fortitude (though I think there might be one or two that target Reflex).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Illusion and Enchantment fit thematically (deception). Also, dont forget the various Phantasms. Those usually target Will and Fortitude (though I think there might be one or two that target Reflex).

Phantasms are even worse. They still allow a will save, but now their useless against the warriors, too.