So, party balance [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Nabirius

2012-01-22, 11:44 PM

So here's the thing, we have the standard party size of 4, but the four are all wildly different in power level. one guy is a level 9 Druid who has convinced the dm to let him wild shape into outsiders instead of elementals (when he gets there) who also intends on taking dragon wild shape as well. One of us is a cleric/storm lord, and the DM has buffed divine meta magic so she only has to get the divine metamagic feat once. I'm playing a level 8 saint bard (LA buy off) with words of creation. And one of us is playing a Level 5 Natural Psionic werewolf Rogue 4/Druid 1 (LA 4) with no further intention of more Psionic or Druid power, just wants an animal companion wild empathy, and the ability to make lights flicker with her mind. I got the DM to waive the 6 levels of animal hit dice she was supposed to take for being a werewolf. All the were wolf is giving her is dr 10/silver, 2 natural armor, 2 wisdom, and 2 strength 4 dexterity, and 4 constitution while in wolf form. Seriously what do I do to bring this party back into some thing resembling party balance?

Manateee

2012-01-23, 12:04 AM

It sounds like most of the players are in the same game, except the Rogue. If he's bothered by the disparity, I'd recommend getting him some genuine psionics somehow (quest, item, gradual shadowcaster-like retraining, whatever).
If he's cool with it, run with it.

HunterOfJello

2012-01-23, 01:19 AM

Reduce the LA by 2 down to an LA of +2. Then have the LA Buyoff remove it altogether.

An Outsider Druid, Super DMM Cleric, and Saint Bard have nothing to fear from any type of Rogue, werewolf or not. If you really wanted to balance things out then you should add on the Phrenic Template to whatever was there already (I'm not sure what a psionic werewolf is). The DM can make it part of the storyline if they like and have the PC awaken a dormant Phrenic of Half-Fey heritage. Both templates would provide a boost that is definitely needed in this situation. (Although it will be a very small boost compared to the ones given to the other PCs.)

The Rogue should consider some levels in the Shadow Theif of Amn or Assassin. Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw is also great. Swordsage receives a mandatory mention, but may be a bit complex in this situation.

~

The player should be told to read The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233) and then have all LA removed from the character. I'm not sure what the DM is smoking, but the abilities that they've allowed so far are way over the top. Putting a basic rogue in that type of party will always leave the rogue falling behind in balance. They can make up for it in skills and sneak attacking if the player really knows how to build the character right (which is highly unlikely in this case). However, they'll need some boosting up to compete and that obviously has not happened at all so far.

Bloodgruve

2012-01-23, 02:11 AM

With a cleric n druid setup like that I'd almost drop the LA and let him gestalt another tier 3 or lower class.

GL
Blood~

HunterOfJello

2012-01-23, 02:28 AM

With a cleric n druid setup like that I'd almost drop the LA and let him gestalt another tier 3 or lower class.

GL
Blood~

That's a great idea Bloodgruve. I wish I had thought of it.

Gestalting is a bit complex, but if he chooses a simpler class like the Ranger, then he could be a Ranger//Rogue which would give him exactly what he's looking for with an animal companion along with some spellcasting and extra range or melee options.

TroubleBrewing

2012-01-23, 02:31 AM

And if you can talk him into SotAO Ranger, he's got Wizard casting on one side, and some (albeit limited) psionics on the other!

0nimaru

2012-01-23, 02:38 AM

TroubleBrewing

2012-01-23, 03:07 AM

From the post and the requested DM approvals, I'm imagining the three high OP characters (including you) know exactly how high OP you are. Maybe you could ... back it down? Shapeshifter variant druid, cleric into anything that isn't DMM, and you just don't do any of the bard op and instead play as a versatile jack of all trades, master of none?

(Before I begin, I should clarify that I actually agree with you: I find lower-tier games more challenging due to the lack of phenomenal cosmic power, which tends to feel like playing with the cheat codes on after a while. This response is instead intended to be taken as a snarky link-joke.)

"From among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one, and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible until evidence is presented to prove it false." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor)

Also, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheNeedsOfTheMany)

Lastly, majority rule. (http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/treatment/majority.htm)

Acanous

2012-01-23, 03:17 AM

Nabirius

2012-01-23, 03:29 AM

From the post and the requested DM approvals, I'm imagining the three high OP characters (including you) know exactly how high OP you are. Maybe you could ... back it down? Shapeshifter variant druid, cleric into anything that isn't DMM, and you just don't do any of the bard op and instead play as a versatile jack of all trades, master of none?

Yes I made my character specifically to keep up with them because I didn't really feel like being pointless. In many ways I wish I didn't start this arms race because we are all going to be crazy powerful.

But the main problem now is that
A) The DM most likely does not realize the degree of power he gave the cleric and the Druid.
B) the rogue is way underpowered and seriously needs some help but refuses to change much of anything. I convinced the DM to let her use leadership to lead a wolf, instead of having to take a level of Druid. But she wanted wild empathy as well.

So how do I help her succeed and have fun?

HunterOfJello

2012-01-23, 03:29 AM

as far as I'm aware, the wording on "Divine Metamagic" allows for two interpretations:
One is that you take Divine Metamagic: (Other MM feat) for each way you want to use it, the other is you take DMM once, and it applies to each metamagic feat you take.

Either way, you're burning the same number of feats.

Complete Divine Errata made the description much clearer.

Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat
The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit
paragraph of the feat description:
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that
you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat.
As a free action, you can take the energy from turning
or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat
to divine spells that you know. . . .

It only applies to 1 metamagic feat each time you take it.

It also only applies to Divine spells. This was even more open for abuse if it was allowed for Arcane spells. It would annoying to see every sorcerer build include a level of Cleric in order to obtain DMM.

Nabirius

2012-01-23, 03:30 AM

And if you can talk him into SotAO Ranger, he's got Wizard casting on one side, and some (albeit limited) psionics on the other!

Where is this ranger?

Also Hunter, I agree with you I am not fearing the rogue, I am fearing for the rogue. I don't really know what to do to help her.

sonofzeal

2012-01-23, 03:35 AM

Where is this ranger?
Google "Sword of the Arcane Order". It's pretty easy to find.

Nabirius

2012-01-23, 03:42 AM

Google "Sword of the Arcane Order". It's pretty easy to find.

Oh cool thanks

Keneth

2012-01-23, 04:35 AM

DM has buffed divine meta magic
The druid was bad enough but this is where I stopped reading. You need to tone it down or it's gonna get really boring really fast. :smallbiggrin:

Nabirius

2012-01-23, 05:19 AM

The druid was bad enough but this is where I stopped reading. You need to tone it down or it's gonna get really boring really fast. :smallbiggrin:

I realize, trust me I realize. I think I may Try to get everyone to tone down their characters by asking them to pick lower tier analogues but if they don't go for that should I focus my efforts on buffing our rogue, and to bring my songs back into line by not using words of creation?

Keneth

2012-01-23, 05:48 AM

I agree with the assessment that the rogue should be gestalted if you're gonna be running a campaign of this magnitude. It's the easiest, if somewhat high maintenance, solution.

LordBlades

2012-01-23, 06:21 AM

Keneth

2012-01-23, 06:54 AM

I think you'd need to take a closer look at the campaign, not just the characters, to determine what's out of place. But other than that, it's hard to make things interesting for a party like this, toning it down might make things more fun for everyone.

sonofzeal

2012-01-23, 07:02 AM

There's also the middle ground - nerfing the Big Three a little, and buffing the Little One a bunch.

Personally, I'm in favour of flat-out Fiating something if the group approves it. For example, I find "+2 to all ability scores" to be a great leveller. It doesn't change Tier placement, but darn if it doesn't help gameplay compeditiveness!

Nabirius

2012-01-23, 11:24 AM

So after speaking with the rogue player my friend and I got here to drop the natural psionic template that she was using for some minor fire control or something. She is now a psionic rogue 5/Druid 1 werewolf. The DM does not seem comfortable with giving her free templates after waiving the hit dice she was supposed to take as the equivalent of an NPC class.

I'm going to try to convince the group to drop a tier or two. Druid to wild shape ranger, cleric to favored soul, I will drop words of creation and saint with it, and drop any plans for sublime chord. How does this seem for party balance?

Gavinfoxx

2012-01-23, 12:15 PM

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1543.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621

Mystic, Shooting Star, Sword of the Arcane Order, Wild Shape, Arcane Hunter, Skilled City Dweller, Spell Reflection, Spiritual Connection, etc. etc. Ranger!

*readread*

Oh!

Have everyone choose classes from this, maybe?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

Nabirius

2012-01-23, 10:04 PM

HunterOfJello

2012-01-24, 03:35 AM

Today the DM Allowed the Druid to use her command/rebuke animals attempts from Initiate of Nature to qualify for DMM. I don't want to play a bard anymore adding onto the powers of others at this point is just dumb Nd completely wreaks the game. I don't really want to be a mostly irrelevant martial class nor do I want to further contribute to the level of op that has spiraled out of control. I don't really know what kind of character to play, perhaps warlock with a prc or something. Any suggestions?

Warlock will be too weak.

Something from the Tier 1 or 2 list from the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0). Honestly, if your DM is pulling bull**** like that, then the fourth player isn't an appropriate person to actually include in this game.

Either the DM doesn't understand how the game balance works whatsoever (most likely this one) OR they want the power of each character to be way too high (in which case enforcing rules more and just making this gestalt would be better).

Werewolf is a crappy template and should barely manage a +2 LA with no racial hit die. The fact that your DM cannot comprehend this is extremely worrying. That is, of course, ignoring the other idiotic decisions.

If you're still committed to that game, I would go with a Tier 1 or 2 class, and maybe a Tier 3 melee class if you grab a nice +2 LA template to boost yourself up. Wizard or Artificer could work well since they get access to the arcane side of things. Sorcerer or a Psion could be cool too. If you do anything Charisma based you should grab the Half-Fey or Phrenic template. Actually, you might as well grab one whatever you choose. Warblade and Crusader are badass melee classes. They'll fall behind compared to Tier 1 casters eventually, but they'll be able to still kickass for quite some time. Crusader is partially charisma based, which syncs with the 2 templates.

You could do Sorcerer-> Prestige Bard to grab bard spells and abilities to do some sing-a-longs. Check out the Tier System for Templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0) and Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) threads. Some PrCs like Sand Shaper are amazing for Sorcerers.

~~~~~~

Your friend wants to be able to turn into a wolf, get some psionic abilites, and do rogue stuff. Lets handle this one at a time.

Mystic Ranger gets faster spellcasting progression and has access to a spell in the spell compendium that turns them into a wolf for a while. This should be more than sufficient. Otherwise suggest that the person plays a Tibbit so that they can turn into a cat whenever they like. Cats are cooler than stupid as super high LA and RHD werewolves.

Best psionic template is Phrenic. It's +2 LA and should be grabbed immediately for their character.

Rogue stuff is a bit more complex to grab since the player 1. need spellcasting to ever hope to keep up and 2. probably doesn't know enough about spells in the game to be a spellcaster. Sorcerer is usually the class to give to someone who doesn't know spellcasting well, but wants to learn and can be given the opportunity to do so. I'll have to think on this one.

Nabirius

2012-01-25, 12:55 AM

Ok so let's say I take sorcerer, I made him a Magic Blooded, half fey, unseelie, lesser aasimar. That seems more than a bit cheesy, but it does make me pretty. Lots of people recommend incantrix for a prestige sorcerer, but that once again seems just seems like a game breaker. Sand shaper doesn't really fit the character and there is already an Egyptian character (real world campaign). Are there any decent fairy ones, and what does everyone think of sevenfold veil (I'm told that one leads to lots of DMs trying to kill the entire party, but I have no personal experience).

Coidzor

2012-01-25, 01:14 AM

Reflavor Fiendbloded PrC into Fey flavored.

Or just do the same with Sand Shaper and tweaking the spells added to fit a more fey flavor, SNA instead of summon desert creature, illusions or enchantment spells instead of outright blasting.

Mage of the Arcane Order is always fun, of course.

Nabirius

2012-01-25, 05:50 PM

sonofzeal

2012-01-25, 06:05 PM

Wow... Wizards of the Coasts seems to ate sorcerers for some reason. I mean they are decent and all, but that is almost entirely due to the fact that they get spells. Kinda annoying actually. Are there any prc's that are better for the Sorcerer than the wizard?
Most, due to the fact that Wizards at least lose Bonus Feats. Sorcs don't lose anything. Also, there's Sand Shaper and Frost Mage that add Spells Known, which are extremely valuable for Sorcs and of less importance for Wizards.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-25, 06:27 PM

Judging by the fact that the DM was wary of removing the RHD of the werewolf, yet buffed the cleric one and buffed the druid twice (three times if you count the boost to DMM and the druid taking DMM as two), he has no idea what he's doing.

You should show him OotS, then introduce him to the forums, and then it all goes from there.

TroubleBrewing

2012-01-25, 09:54 PM

You should show him OotS, then introduce him to the forums, and then it all goes from there.

Though this solution is epic and will likely provide nothing but good times that will be had by all, it probably won't fix this game.

Took me a couple of years of lurking before I got rid of my ToB/Psionics aversion.

Bad habits are hard to break.

Nabirius

2012-02-12, 03:39 PM

So... this is not what I thought would happen. Well it kinda is, druid is being as powerful as you would expect from a metamagic, outsider wildshaping druid. Sorcerer is performing admirably. Unfortunately out cleric needs some help. She is a persist metamagic cleric with craft contingent spell as well, she is also a stormlord (not the best prc, but serviceable in its own right for a cleric of Zeus). She needs help she can persist 1 spell a day.

The main problem is that she wants to blow stuff up, not buff.

Can you all recommend some good aggressive cleric spells that she could cast to be more of the blaster she wants to be. Also anyway to buff the javelins that she throws. I couldn't find a way to put strength to ranged accuracy. Maybe the DM could house rule something. Can anyone think of any items to help a javelin thrower (has the gloves of javelins).

Coidzor

2012-02-12, 03:55 PM

She wanted to be a blaster but never bothered to read the spell list of the class? :smallyuk:

Sound Burst is a crappy 2nd level blasting spell. Flame Strike is a 5th level blasting spell.

Those are the only AoE blasting spells that clerics have that come to mind. Then there's searing light and Light of Venya/Mercuria/X, which are rays or ray-like.

Not a whole lot of blasting on the cleric list, most of their blasting potential comes from domains, IIRC. And Archivists are the ones that benefit the most from cleric domains.

And really, Archivist, Artificer, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warmage seem to be much better options for blasting than Cleric, off the cuff. I think even Druid is better for blasting.

Have you intimated to her that blasting is going to be sub-par unless she puts even more effort into it than DMM Persist buffing herself?

Gavinfoxx

2012-02-12, 03:59 PM

Just tell her that clerics are not competent blasters.

Alternately...

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416122056/forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=605481

Nabirius

2012-02-12, 04:24 PM

Its one of those times where she either doesn't care or wont listen. Thanks for the spell list, are all of them decent or are some better than others?

She really wants to throw javelins and cast spells, are there any buffs or other spells that she should be using (divine power she already uses)

Gavinfoxx

2012-02-12, 04:35 PM

Just read the posts in that thread closely. It talks about which are better than others, just read closely.

nedz

2012-02-12, 05:40 PM

It looks like a classic case of
Player Ability > Build > Class Tier

How did the Rogue fair ?

ericgrau

2012-02-12, 08:14 PM

HD for HD, outsiders are about 50-100% better than elementals. You could try reducing the HD cap to 2/3 for outsider forms. Or maybe add 3 HD then multiply by between 1/2 and 2/3, to match what I wrote below. Make a guess somewhere in that range.

Clerics are bad at blasting, so I dunno what the cleric is doing. You'd have to give a cleric 2 free levels to catch up in blasting. If the cleric isn't exploiting DMM as expected, add 3 more levels to catch up with everyone else's high power stuff. Or better yet help that player rebuild as something better.

I'd likewise say the rogue needs about 3 free LA to catch up. I'm also wondering why the werewolf wasn't 2 HD and 3 LA (before any reductions) like what the MM says.