Would appreciate help on Cleric/Crusader/Hellreaver

[Torvon]

Hell-o my dear friends of smackdown.

I want to play something tankish in my next group. We start on level 5. The others all play heavily optimized tier1 stuff. I know that Hellreaver won't be good enough to keep up with them, but I really want to play this PrC, and would try to make the best out of it.

CLASSES
I looked into Paladin and Knight and combinations thereof to go into Hellreaver, but really, it looks more fun to go Cleric1/Crusader5/Hellreaver.
The reason being: with the insane amounts of selfhealing, I can actually wield a big fat 2hand weapon and dish out some serious damage.
And there are exactly the two things this thread should focus on: selfhealing, and damage.

The only downside is that cleric has BAB+0 first level and I need BAB5 to qualify for Hellreaver. I also thought about cloistered cleric, which looks a tad better really.

RACE
Since we start with lvl5 and LA buyoff, the LA+1 Goliath seems pretty much optimal. Combined with the magic-blooded template of Dragon #306 (-2WIS, +2CHA) I end up with 18 10 16 8 12 18 on level 1 without items. Not too shabby. I won't be a good spellcaster, but honestly, with only one level cleric I wouldn't be anyway.
Another option would be Aasimar, but that would make me a tad weaker in STR, although it is a kickass race!
What do you think?

DOMAIN
Strength looks cool because I can cast Enlarge Person on myself, if I read that correctly. Also, I can imagine playing a Pelor Goliath, to be honest.

FEATS
Protection
* Stone Power: In order to qualify for Hellreaver, I need Power attack. Stone Power from TOM can be used as Power Attack and is an amazing feat.
* Divine Spirit
* Combat Expertise (INT13)
**Sacred Vitality: for 1 turn attempt gain immunity to ability drain, energy drain, ability damage for 1 minute.
Damage
* Improved Trip; Combat Reflexes; Standstill
* Divine Might
* Knowledge Devotion
* Charge feat chain.

I'm really not sure which way to go, although Stone Power seems mandatory. I have 4 feats at lvl 5 I think (2 flaws, lvl1, lvl3).

EQUIPMENT
??

HEALING
Are there good items to boost my healing? With Crusader and Hellreaver I will pretty much heal every single round, small amounts. Are there items giving "+2HP for each heal" or something similar?

Any other ideas?

Thanks
ta-ta
T.

[SamBurke]

Remember, Power Attack is something you're going to need anyway.

[Psyren]

Why Cleric? Neither Crusader nor Hellreaver advance casting, so any spells or domain powers you get (unless they're feats) won't give you much benefit, and your spells can be dispelled by sneezing on them too loudly.

[Jheska]

Cloistered cleric nets him three domains one of which must be knowledge, a ton of level 1 skill points, free access to tons of spell completion items and turn undead. Swapping out certain domains for their respective devotions, not to mention that some domain powers are also great, which will then be powered by his turn undead.

Turn undead may also be a requirement to enter a prestige class, but backed up by the huge Cha he's considered can lead to any number of divine and devotion feats helping him. Depending on domain choices you can basically be looking at three free feats.

A level of cleric can be damm useful for more than just casting.

Not to mention if they waste time dispelling his magic, they're not dispelling something important.

[Torvon]

Cleric1 currently gives me 3+4=7 turning attempts.

And there are really nice feats around that, e.g.
* Divine Spirit (TOM): while in Devoted Spirit Stance, give up 1 turn attempt to recover 3+CHA HP. These are 49 Hitpoints per day. Not too shabby.
* Sacred Vitality: As a Standard Action, spend one Turn Attempt to gain immunity to Ability Damage, Ability Drain, and Energy Drain for 1 minute.
* Divine Might: As a Free Action, use up one of your daily Turn / Rebuke uses to add your Charisma bonus to your weapon’s damage for 1 Full Round
* Divine Shield: CHA to shield AC
* Divine Vigor: 2* Character level temp. HP and +10 movement for CHA minutes!
* Holy Calling: a better version of goad.

"Swapping out certain domains for their respective devotions"
How does that work? Never played a cleric before ;)

Any comments on my other questions? I will have to do some damage somehow.

ta-ta
T

[Psyren]

Area dispels exist, and the CL on his own buffs will be so low that they won't even protect his real ones from them.

Cloistered Cleric gets plenty of skillpoints, but few places to put them that will be truly helpful for his build. Pumping Spellcraft will be pointless, for instance, and he'll get neither Listen, Spot, nor Sense Motive as class skills at first level.

Hellreaver does not have a TU requirement. It does, however, have a BAB requirement, which a cleric dip will delay.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate - if the OP wants to go for the cleric dip, then by all means he should.

[Jheska]

Level one put skill points into all knowledge skills, next trade out knowledge domain for its devotion. Enjoy minimum +1 to hit and damage vs everything, more with a lucky roll or further skill investment.

If getting the right skills are really important the Pact domain grants intimidate, appraise and sense motive as class skills.

Just as a possible use of skills.

[Greenish]

"Swapping out certain domains for their respective devotions"
How does that work? Never played a cleric before ;)Devotion feats are from Complete Champion. Most of them give you a short-duration buff 1/day, and you can use Turn Undead for more uses.

A cleric can give up one (or more) of his domains, and instead of the domain granted power and domain spells, he gets the corresponding devotion feat (Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion, Animal Domain for Animal Devotion, and so forth).

They're discussed in the Dipping cleric 1 handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0). Yes, there's a handbook for that.

[Torvon]

Knowledge devotion looks nice. So does travel devotion.
Domains Renewal (d8+CHA HP when <0, Charm Person) and Time (imp. INI, True Strike) look awesome.

What about the feat practised spellcaster - will that boost me to a level 5 cleric, meaning I can cast lvl 3 spells and have more spells?

T

[Greenish]

What about the feat practised spellcaster - will that boost me to a level 5 cleric, meaning I can cast lvl 3 spells and have more spells?No. Practiced Spellcaster only boosts your Caster Level (CL), which is not the same thing as your level in a casting class.

[Psyren]

To expand on Greenish's answer - you will still have the casting of a first-level Cleric, but the effects of the few spells you have will be calculated as though you were 5th-level. (This includes things like duration, range, and ability to overcome spell resistance.)

[Torvon]

Okay, thank you.

Another question: I found interesting domains I'd like to use (like "time"), but have no clue which gods offer these domains. Google doesn't really help, I cannot find a comprehensive list of Gods and their domains.

Thanks
T

[Endarire]

THe PHB in the Cleric class description says you can be a Cleric of an ethos (meaning deity worship is optional).

[Greenish]

Another question: I found interesting domains I'd like to use (like "time"), but have no clue which gods offer these domains. Google doesn't really help, I cannot find a comprehensive list of Gods and their domains.The deities depend on the setting. Try this (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/ASMoNM/domains.html) list.

[Edit]: If playing in Eberron, the FoE quick reference sheet (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060911a&page=2) has most of the religions.

[Torvon]

Thanks!

Some other questions:
1) Mechanics
A) I'm going Guisarme. That means I don't threaten squares adjacent to me. Can I get around this by also wearing spiked gauntlets, so I threaten both at the same time (like spiked chain)?
B) Goliaths can carry large Guisarmes, which is nice because they do more damage. If I got Monkey Grip and had a huge one, would the reach increase?
C) Can I use a Crusader maneuver (e.g. Foe Hammer) at the end of a charge? Can I use a maneuver as attack of opportunity? Can I use Power Attack together with maneuvers?

2) Feats
I plan on Goliath Cloistered Cleric1/Crusader5/Hellreaver2, as first big step in the build. We start at level 5, so Cleric1/Crusader4, with and STR20 DEX10 CON16 INT10 WIS12 CHA16. STR CON CHA have to be high for this build. I guess I could dump WIS, but with WIS12 at least I get 1 level 1 bonus spell. INT10 seems reasonable so I have at least some skill points, and DEX10 is a hard one, but I wouldn't want to drop it further to 8.
With that said, what feats would you recommend for damage? I have four feats at level 5, and so far am going for Power Attack, Divine Vigor (6/d +2*lvl temp HP and +10 feet movement for 3 minutes each), and Powerful Charge (+2d6 damage!!).
Any recommendations for the fourth?

Thanks!

ta-ta
T.

EDIT:
It was discussed above if the 1 level Cleric dip is worth it. As it is now, I get (1) access to all knowledge skills and nice skills points ((6+INT)*4) at first level, (2) two amazing feats (improved initiative and knowledge devotion), (3) true strike 1/d, (4) two 1st level spells which will not change the world, but will be handy nonetheless, and (5) of course have access to amazing feats like Divine Vigor and Sacred Vitality.
How can there ever be a discussion about if that's worth it ... actually, I want to play a Cleric now :)

[Darrin]

A) I'm going Guisarme. That means I don't threaten squares adjacent to me. Can I get around this by also wearing spiked gauntlets, so I threaten both at the same time (like spiked chain)?


Yes.

Changing your grip on the guisarme is a free action, so you should be able to let go of the guisarme with one hand and attack with the spiked gauntlet. Some DMs may get nitpicky about using free actions outside your turn, however, in which case, just buy some armor spikes. Actually, netcutter spikes (Races of the Wild) are even better.



B) Goliaths can carry large Guisarmes, which is nice because they do more damage. If I got Monkey Grip and had a huge one, would the reach increase?


No. The size of your weapon has no effect on your reach.

Do not take Monkey Grip. First of all, it doesn't stack with Powerful Build, so you can't use it to wield a huge guisarme. Second, even if you could, you're stuck with a -2 size penalty you can't get rid of in exchange for a modest damage increase (2d6 -> 3d6 = +3.5 damage on average). If you want to trade attack for damage, Power Attack has a better payoff (THF: -2 attack = +4 damage) and you can choose when to take the penalty.



C) Can I use a Crusader maneuver (e.g. Foe Hammer) at the end of a charge? Can I use a maneuver as attack of opportunity? Can I use Power Attack together with maneuvers?


No, you generally can't mix strikes with charges and AoOs. It takes a standard action to perform a strike, and a charge requires a full-round action. The two action types are incompatable. Same deal with AoOs, since an AoO doesn't grant you a standard action.

You can use Power Attack with maneuvers, since it takes no action to activate, and the penalty/bonus applies to all your attacks until your next turn.



Any recommendations for the fourth?


Can't really go wrong with Improved Bull Rush/Shock Trooper.

[Greenish]

Changing your grip on the guisarme is a free action, so you should be able to let go of the guisarme with one hand and attack with the spiked gauntlet.But do you threaten before you let go? :smallamused:

[mikau013]

Yes.

Changing your grip on the guisarme is a free action, so you should be able to let go of the guisarme with one hand and attack with the spiked gauntlet. Some DMs may get nitpicky about using free actions outside your turn, however, in which case, just buy some armor spikes. Actually, netcutter spikes (Races of the Wild) are even better.

Do you have a source for the fact that changing your grip on a guisarme is a free action?
I can’t find it anywhere in the rules myself.

The only thing I can find is this:

(...)the rules don’t come out and say that a Medium creature threatens all squares within 10 feet while wielding a reach weapon and wearing spiked gauntlets. However, it’s appropriate to assume the creature does just that.
which specifically says that it is not RAW

[Darrin]

But do you threaten before you let go? :smallamused:

Yes. The requirements for threatening a square as defined by the Rules Compendium:

"If you’re considered armed, you threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it isn’t your turn."

Thus, if you are armed with a melee weapon and can attack with it on your turn, then it threatens and you can make an AoO with it.

(And yeah, you can get really nitpicky here with "free actions" or when a weapon is considered "armed", "wielded" or "readied to attack", but those aren't very clearly defined by the rules.)


Do you have a source for the fact that changing your grip on a guisarme is a free action?
I can’t find it anywhere in the rules myself.


It's from Skip Williams' Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity (Part Two) (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a). While it may not be explicitly RAW, it's been embraced by the Sage, Custserv, FAQ, all cute fluffy kittens, and apparently the Rules Compendium.

But the strongest argument in its favor is probably that if you try to argue otherwise, you sound like a total d-bag. (Unless you're Curmudgeon.)

I do find it a bit odd that the Rules Compendium, which is RAW, is saying that this example isn't RAW, when it was expressly the purpose of the Rules Compendium to clear these kinds of things up, but then it's from the section on DM Adjudication. The sentence immediately after: "However, it’s appropriate to assume the creature does just that" sounds a lot like RAW to me.

[Torvon]

Darrin,

that was clearly the most well-written, precise and helpful response I received in any forum this year :)

Cheers!
T.

[mikau013]

So in other words it is a houserule that you think everyone should have. That still doesn't make it raw though.