Tsukiko and the Southern Pantheon

[faustin]

I know a cleric isn´t the same as a paladin, but I feel something strange than Tsukiko hasn´t been deprived of her divine powers yet much like Miko (whose "betrayal" to the Gods´principles was far lesser).

Let´s see: a former necromancer who has betrayed the whole Azure City and her people in order to save her ass, plus it´s helping her new boss (a lich with who maintain an one sided plathonic relationship) to support the new goblin regime (an horde of worshippers of the Dark One) at the expenses of the human slaves (mostly followers of the Southern Gods) , and his main quest of conquer a Gate and tame a god killing abomination entitiy.... I think it should be more than enough to make think even Rat in rescission of her contract.

[theNater]

Tsukiko doesn't need to be a follower of the Southern Pantheon. Elan pointed out that one can be a cleric of a cause (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html); if her cause is to make things better for the undead, she's doing just fine.

[veti]

Although the Southern Gods are honoured as a pantheon, they are quite a diverse bunch. A couple are probably various shades of LG, and enjoy having paladins as followers, but others are - other alignments.

The worship-as-a-pantheon thing means they don't fit well into core rules, but I would suggest: the gods believe in collective responsibility. Whatever any one of them does, is done in the name of the Twelve. They'll doubtless have rules among themselves, but those rules are pretty loose and designed to let each of them pursue often-conflicting agendas.

So I think of Miko as having a "contract" with the Twelve to serve as a paladin, and Tsukiko having a "contract" to act as a necromancer. Miko lost her powers because she broke her contract. At that point her patrons withdrew their support, and none of the others was willing to take her on. But Tsukiko is safe as long as she sticks to her (completely different) divine deal.

Edit: Obviously the phrase "Tsukiko is safe..." was not the most farsighted choice of words at this juncture. But I hope you know what I meant.

[Castamir]

It's already established that Rat is evil. Not sure about the rest.

[NerfTW]

I know a cleric isn´t the same as a paladin, but I feel something strange than Tsukiko hasn´t been deprived of her divine powers yet much like Miko (whose "betrayal" to the Gods´principles was far lesser).

Let´s see: a former necromancer who has betrayed the whole Azure City and her people in order to save her ass, plus it´s helping her new boss (a lich with who maintain an one sided plathonic relationship) to support the new goblin regime (an horde of worshippers of the Dark One) at the expenses of the human slaves (mostly followers of the Southern Gods) , and his main quest of conquer a Gate and tame a god killing abomination entitiy.... I think it should be more than enough to make think even Rat in rescission of her contract.

Tsukiko isn't a paladin, and clerics don't fall. She clearly worships an evil god for her powers. And remember, the gods have a hands off policy towards the gates. For starters, they don't even know what Redcloak's real plan is. And as was established in Crayons of Time, if the Snarl gets loose again, they'll just hide and remake the world a third time. Second, they don't want to act in a way that causes even MORE people to be aware of the gates.

Miko didn't betray the gods. She committed an evil act in violation of her paladin code. That's why she fell.

[SoC175]

And remember, the gods have a hands off policy towards the gates. For starters, they don't even know what Redcloak's real plan is.Which might be about to change, as a cleric of theirs is about to arrive in the afterlife with knowledge about what the Dark One is up to

[ObadiahtheSlim]

She likely worships one of the evils (like rat) of the pantheon. She could be agnostic and not worship any of them to derive her power and instead gain power from a cause. However it will be interesting if she shows up at the southern pantheon's gate to the evil afterlife she will arrive at. She can blab to them about what the Dark One's plan is for the gates. However the divines may already know. Seeing as how Miko and Hinjo seemed to have some idea of what Redcloaks plan is.

[mrmcfatty]

well i know that roy says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html) that the gods have a blackout on the snarl and rifts. But the only thing shojo said when he told the story was "the gods chose not to tell any of their follower" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)

unless it was stated elsewhere that they no knowing about it i would assume that while they may not know all the details they most probably know about the ritual and just about everything else but decided to let whatever happens, happen. worst case, world destroyed, they remake it. best case, things continue on and they dont have to worry.

[Kish]

Let´s see: a former necromancer

Since when do evil gods object to necromancy?

who has betrayed the whole Azure City and her people in order to save her ass,

Or betrayal?

plus it´s helping her new boss (a lich with who maintain an one sided plathonic relationship) to support the new goblin regime (an horde of worshippers of the Dark One)

Who is an ally of Rat.

at the expenses of the human slaves (mostly followers of the Southern Gods)

Or slavery? Generally a god's worst enemies are found in the same pantheon as that god. Rat is probably thrilled to see the worshipers of the good gods in the Twelve Gods pantheon reduced to slavery.

, and his main quest of conquer a Gate and tame a god killing abomination entitiy.... I think it should be more than enough to make think even Rat in rescission of her contract.
This argument would be far more compelling if you'd limited it to "I'm surprised even an evil god who isn't actually the Dark One would permit Tsukiko to help anyone threaten a Gate."

As it is, the bulk of your post seems to not realize that there are any evil deities in the pantheon of the Twelve Gods.

[FujinAkari]

Who is an ally of Rat.

Is he? I recall Rat not actively ostracizing The Dark One, but I don't think they can be called allies, particularly not when The Dark One is threatening to kill -everyone-

[Kish]

Redcloak, as of Start of Darkness, disagreed, describing Loki, Tiamat, and Rat as "the Dark One's few allies."

[faustin]

As it is, the bulk of your post seems to not realize that there are any evil deities in the pantheon of the Twelve Gods.


Most azurites seemed to worshipp the Twelve as a whole. Even the evil followers of the evil deities were wipped out or slaved by the gobbos, wich mean their mortal power base is also lost (unless Hinjo manages to retake the city). As the IFCC said "Only because were are evil doesn´t mean we all belong to the same happy family", so I don´t imagine Rat very happy because his once ally took all the cake for himself.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

There are other southern nations. It's not like the 12 are only worshiped that particular city-state.

[Kish]

Most azurites seemed to worshipp the Twelve as a whole. Even the evil followers of the evil deities were wipped out or slaved by the gobbos,
What evil followers of evil deities?

We have Tsukiko, who was locked up for practicing evil magic. Belkar called Azure City a "cesspit of virtue." At least two of Azure City's rulers have been paladins. What indication do you have that the worship of Rat separate from the rest of the pantheon was even legal in the city?

[Cranica]

Also, looking at a real world example, not liking a god hasn't always been reason not to worship them. Plenty of ancient pantheons had gods that everyone knew full well were terrible people but worshipped them anyway. I suspect the Azurites worshipped them as a pantheon rather than as individuals, since I can't recall one ever referring to a single one rather than "Twelve Gods".

[Grim Reader]

I can't remember Tsukiko ever being stated in the comic to have Cleric levels?

She seemed a studious type. I'd imagine a better fit for her divine casting would be the Int-based Archivist, with the whole "Dark Knowledge" thing.

It would also explain why Tsukiko never actually acted with any wisdom whatsoever.

[Kish]

I can't remember Tsukiko ever being stated in the comic to have Cleric levels?

She seemed a studious type. I'd imagine a better fit for her divine casting would be the Int-based Archivist, with the whole "Dark Knowledge" thing.

It would also explain why Tsukiko never actually acted with any wisdom whatsoever.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8800637&post8800637

[Grim Reader]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8800637&post8800637

She has divine magic, and worships the Twelve.

That statement could just as well support her being a Ranger, Divine Bard, Paladin, Archivist, Favored Soul, Healer, Spirit Shaman, Sha'ir, or a score of PrCs. You don't actually need ot be a cleric to fall into both those categories.

[Kish]

most clerics tend to clump into the same general color if they worship the same gods[...] Tsukiko uses the same color for her divine magic as the Azurite priests because they both worship the Twelve Gods, who are worshipped as a pantheon by all alignments in Azure City.
If you think there is no indication there that Tsukiko isn't a non-core class instead of a cleric, well, I cannot deny that it does not include the words "Tsukiko is a cleric."

[Chronos]

She has the Rebuke Undead ability, since she threatened Than with it (in older editions, evil clerics could turn paladins). Ergo, she's either a cleric, or something very weird.

[Steward]

Rich could have homebrewed a feat that does that--

Nah, I think it is likely that she is a cleric. She could technically be some other divine caster that we've never seen before but... why? He usually doesn't include non-core classes in the comic, and being a ranger is probably the weirdest and hardest way to become a mystic theurge. Tsukiko might be a druid or another non-core class but it seems like the only reason she would be is for a specific plot or character reason.

[The Cat Goddess]

Rich could have homebrewed a feat that does that--

Nah, I think it is likely that she is a cleric. She could technically be some other divine caster that we've never seen before but... why? He usually doesn't include non-core classes in the comic, and being a ranger is probably the weirdest and hardest way to become a mystic theurge. Tsukiko might be a druid or another non-core class but it seems like the only reason she would be is for a specific plot or character reason.

Not to mention that...
1) As a Druid, she would have to be Neutral Evil instead of Chaotic Evil.
2) As a Druid, she would have access to the Arcane Hierophant prestige class, which puts Mystic Theurge to shame.

[ORione]

Not to mention that...
1) As a Druid, she would have to be Neutral Evil instead of Chaotic Evil.
2) As a Druid, she would have access to the Arcane Hierophant prestige class, which puts Mystic Theurge to shame.

Tsukiko's clearly Evil, but do we know if she is Chaotic?

[ti'esar]

I always saw her as NE, though more because it would "balance" the alignments of Team Evil then because of any in-comic evidence.

[Kingscourt]

I know a cleric isn´t the same as a paladin, but I feel something strange than Tsukiko hasn´t been deprived of her divine powers yet much like Miko (whose "betrayal" to the Gods´principles was far lesser).

Let´s see: a former necromancer who has betrayed the whole Azure City and her people in order to save her ass, plus it´s helping her new boss (a lich with who maintain an one sided plathonic relationship) to support the new goblin regime (an horde of worshippers of the Dark One) at the expenses of the human slaves (mostly followers of the Southern Gods) , and his main quest of conquer a Gate and tame a god killing abomination entitiy.... I think it should be more than enough to make think even Rat in rescission of her contract.

Well, first of all as many others have already stated, Tsukiko is not a Paladin, therefore there is no 'code' she is required to follow other than keep her alignment within one step of her chosen deity. More importantly, the twelve gods are worshiped by the Southern people as a whole, not just Azure city, so there is no reason for any of the evil twelve gods to be particularly offended by that.

Also, some SOD spoilers Even if she were to release this god killing entity and if it got loose, it would just unmake the world before the gods trapped it again, and they would just remake it. So there's no real reason the rat (If we were to assume she worshiped the rat) to revoke her powers, if anything he would want one of his worshipers to have a hand in the ritual, for leverage.

[archon_huskie]

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

So Tsukiko likely follows a diety that approves of her actions, or she is a cleric to a cause. Or she worshipped the twelve in the past but the Dark One has been fueling her spells of late.

[The Cat Goddess]

Tsukiko's clearly Evil, but do we know if she is Chaotic?


I always saw her as NE, though more because it would "balance" the alignments of Team Evil then because of any in-comic evidence.

I always saw here as Chaotic due to her constant disdain of rules, authority figures and civilization in general.

As a Narcisist and Individualist, Chaos seems to suit her.

[Zevox]

Tsukiko might be a druid
No, that's impossible. She's used spells that Druids can't, such as the Inflict Critical Wounds she used to heal Xykon back when we first saw her.

Zevox

[Anarion]

I also think that Miko's fall was a truly rare event, much more so than people give it credit for. Tsukiko did betray her homeland in some sense, but she had been in jail and in love with the undead for some time and continued to follow her beliefs while still worshiping the twelve gods. She never deviated from her alignment (what version of evil it might be) nor did she do anything especially sacrilegious. So, why would the twelve gods personally intervene to mess with her?

[MReav]

Also, looking at a real world example, not liking a god hasn't always been reason not to worship them. Plenty of ancient pantheons had gods that everyone knew full well were terrible people but worshipped them anyway. I suspect the Azurites worshipped them as a pantheon rather than as individuals, since I can't recall one ever referring to a single one rather than "Twelve Gods".

You hear things like "By Monkey's Tail" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html), but they're rarely addressed as individuals.

[Psyren]

Rat is what Deities & Demigods or Faiths & Pantheons would term an "aberrant" - a member of a pantheon whose alignment does not conform to the general spectrum of the other members. D&D examples include Urdlen in the gnomish pantheon, Laduguer/Deep Duerra in the dwarven pantheon, and the rare good example of Eilistraee in the Drow pantheon.

[Bulldog Psion]

My opinion is that the gnawing malice of Rat is quite sufficient for her purposes. :smallwink: