OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Morph Bark]

On a roll, Rich. Nice to see that. :smallsmile:

[Sunken Valley]

Earlier than I expected for her too go.

Edit: since when could Redcloak cast shout

[Dorjan]

Owch! So RC's intentions are already found... derp!

I wonder if she told X?

[Saph]

Hmm. Redcloak's certainly having things all his own way at the moment, isn't he?

I hadn't realised Tsukiko was that stupid, but I guess it does fit with the characterisation - she's never acted very smart.

[Michaeler]

That answers one question.

[Circle of Life]

Well.

...well.

I guess that answers one question... and opens up about a dozen more for debate.

[Katana_Geldar]

Wow! That was amazing Rich.

Poor Tsukiko.

[Duos Greanleef]

First things first:
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/106/887/backpain-1292835351.jpg

Secondly, this is exactly the manner of bada**ery I love to see. Redcloak is obviously Evil, not just doing evil things for the greater good.

I would like to also address the concept of "things are more violent/gruesome/terrifying if they happen off-panel" i.e. Raping Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis, 90% of the Film Jaws, and now the death of Tsukiko.

Fine work, Giant.

[The Giant]

Edit: since when could Redcloak cast shout

He can't. He can cast Dispel Magic. I don't bother showing the difference between the two methods.

[Kurald Galain]

Whoa, Redcloak is awesome when he means business!

Actually, in terms of "getting what you want out of life", he's miles ahead of everyone else in the comic except for Tarquin.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I... actually feel sorry for Tsukiko. I mean, I expected her to die the moment she found out what was going on, but that was... nasty.

All in all, right in character for Redcloak...

[Mauve Shirt]

Wow. How evil. Don't know whether to be relieved she's gone (knew it would happen at some point) or horrified. I think horrified.

[Drascin]

Well, that was pretty brutal. That's the problem with working with Team Evil, Tsukiko. They're evil, brutal, and remorseless. And if you give them an opening they will kill you.

[Michaeler]

I missed the sound effects in the last two panels first time I read it.

[Chocowatte]

My imagination just... cringes. :smalleek: Nothing like letting you place the off-camera details yourself...

Well played. Well played.

[Forrestfire]

:smalleek: That was a bit horrifying. And a bit awesome. I'm glad Tsukiko is finally gone :smallbiggrin:

[ironballs]

Absolutely excellent!!!!

The comic was a bit stagnant lately - but great come back Rich! awesome strip, I just love that green little dude :)

[One Step Two]

As always, I am very impressed by this comic, in every way, from the unexpected twists to the delivery. Bravo.
Also, Take that Tsukiko, you silly little girl! This is the big leagues, and playing pretend that an unliving monster who feels nothing and cares even less about you is your one true love gets you what you deserve.
The only dissapointing thing is that we didn't get to see the look on her face when Xykon eventually did the deed himself.

[Dumbledore lives]

Well that was surprising. She was going to die, because she really is nowhere near as smart as she thinks she is, but I didn't expect it quite that way, or quite so suddenly.

[Mordokai]

I am impressed.

And more than little amused :smallbiggrin:

[Metal Archon]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a little bad for her, but I'd also be lying if I said she didn't have it coming. Don't tread on the Crimson Mantle, man.

[Skeletoff]

The last panel lacks something. It begins with "s" and ends in "oul bind".

[Borgh]

For some reason, I now want to see redcloak with sunglassesmonocle on. it just feels right at this point.

daim.

[Deadly]

Noooooo! Poor Tsukiko :smallfrown: Why is it always the best characters who die horribly?

I hope Xykon was secretly listening in on some of it... or something.

[deworde]

I... actually feel sorry for Tsukiko. I mean, I expected her to die the moment she found out what was going on, but that was... nasty.

Yeah... I kind of felt sorry for her.

I assumed he was going to control her mind or something, not brutally execute her with her own loved ones while monologuing about how he really feels about Xykon.

Awesome job, Giant, now I'm just going over here... to think and stuff... Really good strip 'n' all.

...
...
...
*sobbing sound*

[Feytalist]

Thought one: Oh hey, new strip. :smallsmile:

Thought two: Oh hey, double strip! :smallbiggrin: Looks like three, technically...

Thought three: Oh hey, looks like the fevered predictions about Tsukiko's fate were right for a change, heh.

[HearTheRequiem]

Oh god Tsukiko noooooooooo why. :smallfrown:

[The Succubus]

Wow. Um.

That was horrific. Well told, well done but horrific. :smalleek:

[Mastikator]

Not only is Redcloak right about the nature of the undead, but also the fact that he had the final word with her, the fact that he used her creations against her, the fact that she was proven wrong in this act, and that she deserved what happened to her, makes this the greatest strip in a long history of great comic strips.

Redcloak may have upgraded himself to the position of BBEG, with Xykon as his dragon.
Now who's the bitch?

[Lord Ruby34]

Man, that was brutal. Awesome but brutal.

[Firemeier]

YES! You spoil us with activity these last days, Giant. :smallwink:

That's what I love about the villains of this strip: They're all awesome in their own ways.

And it's great to see that as much as Rich feigns disinterest in small, nitpicky details we still get stuff like the Control Undead ability being cast onscreen and still coming as a surprise in later strips.

[theNater]

Yeouch. Redcloak is hardcore.

[RMS Oceanic]

So Redcloak isn't as spineless as 662 would have suggested. Chilling! :smalleek:

I wonder: What will his anti-Xykon strategy turn out to be?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Ah, the worst laid plans of mice and necromancers!

Important Safety Tip: When you have two bosses, don't assume the Junior Boss can't grind you into a fine dust...

[Raza]

Aww, all the best parts happen off-panel.

Tsukiko was fun. I'm sure she would've wanted this scene to be visible.

[Ajadea]

A triple strip? I don't think we've ever had that before. Absolutely perfect, though. That was brutal and a perfect end to Tsukiko. Dead at the hands of her own creations.

Silent Command Undead for the win! Which also answers the question of what spell Redcloak was casting in 828. Dimensionally locked study also explains why he teleported to just outside.

[Deth Muncher]

LOVE this. Well done, Rich. It's all great - and good to know Redcloak kept his character development.

[TheArsenal]

Yay, im so glad that Red-cloak put her out of her misery!

Just think if she DID become Xykons right hand. Think Herley Quin. Abusive relationship.

Also this is the medieval version of the cure for some form of Psychosis. Death.

[zimmerwald1915]

*places tongue in cheek*

Redcloak continues to be logically sound, brutally efficient, and hopelessly deluded. Come on, Giant, some of us want character development.

Then again, Tsukiko just developed plans to find housing in Hell, so there's that.

*removes tongue from cheek*

[Calenestel]

Wow. Not only was it a new comic very soon after the last one. It was really an AWESOME one at that. I've been waiting for Tsukiko to die for a long time and the manner is... not surprising and very, VERY... cathartic? therapeutic? Meh, satisfying anyway. :smallamused:

But the best part? The instructions to the wights afterwards. RC is really growing into one of my favourite characters. The best villain without a doubt. :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

I hope Xykon was secretly listening in on some of it... or something.

That's what I was expecting to happen, actually.

[INoKnowNames]

I don't think I ever felt the need to respond to a comic. I've kept all of my "Holy Craps" bottled up inside, just in awe at the amazing story that I've been reading, that I some how came across and anchored me to this site. I've always just enjoyed it, and never really felt the need to say anything that any other fan hasn't said.

Until now.

Holy crap. -Holy- -Crap-. Holy Crap Holy Crap Holy Crap Holy Crap -HOLY- -FREAKING- -CRAP-!

I was always under the assumption that Tsukiko might have been -more- evil than Red Cloak, since he had been content with passive actions and only slight manipulations. And now I see that I'm almost as, if not more so, naive than Tsukiko was.

Red Cloak isn't the Dragon. He's the Man Behind the Man! He's potentially as Genre Savy as Tarquin, and he's the real Big Bad here! He's actually using Xykon! He's a Cleric, Trolling an Epic Lich Sorceror, with no more than his subtle actions!

All of the stuff he's had to endure, all of the struggles and trials and tribulations, all of the insults.... and it's all been part of his plans.... He's a Chestmaster.... And possibly the biggest threat in the story....

Holy Crap....

[The Guardian]

Ahahahahahahaha!

Now that I have that out of my system... was there a particular reason he wanted the wights to eat themselves "in the order in which (they) were created"?

Also

without the Soul Bind does that mean Xykon could force Redcloak to cast True Ressurection which he probably has access to now?

[faustin]

I always knew that Tsukiko would find her end in the hands of her beloved undeads, still i agree with all of you that the scene was disturbing at least, if even well deserved (specially the face of Redcloak showing her nothing but cold contempt).

[Sunken Valley]

A triple strip? I don't think we've ever had that before. Absolutely perfect, though. That was brutal and a perfect end to Tsukiko. Dead at the hands of her own creations.

Silent Command Undead for the win! Which also answers the question of what spell Redcloak was casting in 828. Dimensionally locked study also explains why he teleported to just outside.

We've had at least 2 triple strips before. 500 was one the other was the one where Miko fell. We've also had a quadruple length strip (the introduction of Miko).

[Dorjan]

**** yes. I just read a few other replies here and thought "huh? That's not the one I just read" clicked next "another ONE!?" xD

hah

I was expecting some sorta explosion but he pwned her with two spells (granted one was meta'ed)...

RC <3

[Crod]

Oh man, I couldn't have been more wrong. I was thinking more on the lines of them coming to some agreement to balance things out.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12575537&postcount=106

The last comics have been extra amazing. Good to see RC staying true to his alignment.

[Kish]

Ahahahahahahaha!

Now that I have that out of my system... was there a particular reason he wanted the wights to eat themselves "in the order in which (they) were created"?
It might be so that the oldest, and therefore most powerful, wights get eaten first, or it might be just a Lawful man's solution to the "if I just tell them to eat each other I might wind up with multiple wights who don't have enough of their bodies uneaten to keep eating each other" problem.

[gellerche]

Wow. I was expecting a massive, spell-against-spell battle between Redcloak and Tsukiko, with the victor barely hanging on, until finally delivering a coup-de-grace to win.

But I keep forgetting that Redcloak is a tactician. Why give your opponent a small chance of surviving with a spell-on-spell battle, when you can give them a zero chance of surviving with a battle based on guile on your home turf?

Awesome strip.

[dogmac]

The "fireplace" comment is a beautiful touch.

When Redcloak tidies up, he does it thoroughly.

[fergo]

Wow.

Wooooow.


I never cared about Tsukiko at all (being firmly on Redcloak's side, at least where Team Evil is concerned), but her death was just... upsetting :smalleek:.

Fantastic comic. It's great to see Redcloak back on top again--I was worrying that after his badassery crushing the Resistence he was going to be outwitted by Tsukiko. And knowing that he's still not bowed by Xykon, even after the whole Darth V episode, is rewarding.

Or at least he likes pretending to himself that he's not bowed by Xykon... time will tell.

[toughluck]

Brilliant comic. Made my day, really. It's amazing how Tsukiko managed to keep to her beliefs right to the end.

Also: Redcloak just standing there and looking at the scene.

Also: Fantastic pace of updates. I didn't even manage to finish reading the previous comic's discussion thread.

[Spacewolf]

That was pretty dark, RC seemed abit james bond villainy with the whole fireplace comment. Also seems strange to me that RC didnt take any enjoyment out of beating someone who had humiliated him it was just something to be done, i guess it shows that the whole thing is not about self gratification for him which is good i guess.

[Yendor]

So Tsukiko is shown she was horribly wrong, in the most horribly wrong way possible.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or at least he likes pretending to himself that he's not bowed by Xykon... time will tell.
He gave Jirix his spiel about being able to manipulate Xykon before the whole Darth V business. He called Xykon an ally, implying that they are on equal terms. He spelled out that keeping Xykon's knowledge limited in order to control him was his, Redcloak's, MO. He might even belive it. Xykon, of course, has other ideas. We shall see who is deluded.

[willpell]

The expression on Tsukiko's face after she hears about the spell ("Twelve gods, I never thought...") makes me wonder if she was just about to decide to take pity on with Redcloak (not that it would have lasted given how emotionally unstable she is...well, was). Which of course only makes it more chilling that he has her killed before she can express any such repentance against her suddenly-understood enemy.

[Aotrs Commander]

Fantastic.

I was expecting Tsukiko to die form the moment she showed up in Redcloak's room, but I was expecting more of a Implosion or Destruction, myself (what Mystic Theurge Fort saves being pretty dreadful).

That however, was stylishly executed, and gave him chance to put the metaphorical boot in as well. I applaud you Redcloak, as one Evil-doer to another!



I honestly didn't think Tsukiko was actually THAT stupid, until the last couple of strips, but with this one, she really did officially hit "too stupid to live." I mean, really? She honestly thought Redcloak would just let her tell Xykon something that would get him killed? I can't even fathom why anyone would be so daft... Ah well, I think she's paid for that blunder more than enough, not only with her life.

[Wizzardman2]

Still, Silent Command Undead right as he entered the room.

Beautiful, but incredibly depressing.

[Arakune]

More like she really understood what was at stake on this. It isn't some weekend evil here, but multiplanar catastrophe.

[kojar]

So if someone other than redcloak completes the ritual his god might be able to move it to somewhere like the negative energy plane which has no life or maybe even the Dark ones realm. But Redcloak has nothing to worry about since he is the only one who can complete it unless the other gods might discover it.

[Killer Angel]

wow... Redcloack is a really great villain. The Order is fixed upon Xykon, but he's an equal dangerous enemy.
In my own awesomeness scale, I put him decisely on par with Tarquin and Xykon.


And now, I'll quote myself from the previous thread.

A very clever girl, indeed...
But a not so smart one, to reveal it to Redcloack... unless she's got some aces up her sleeves (that will show in the next update?) to avoid deadly repercussions.
...apparently not. :smallbiggrin:

[Morty]

"Subtly controlling Xykon"? Oh, Redcloak. Your skills at self-deception are even greater than Miko's.

[Andre]

In addition wights have theorically an INT score and therefore wouldn't obey suicidal orders such as "kill each other and the last of you, throw yourself in the fireplace" but we'll let that pass because it was a very very fast triple-length strip. :smalltongue:

It would have been amusing to see a wightapocalypse in Azure City, though.

[Lord Hakura]

Well, that was... Sad. I never particularly liked Tsukio, but her last words were saddening. Readcloak has definitely grown a spine, and obviously has no qualms about steamrolering over anyone who gets in his way. He is definitely Capital E Evil now. Tsukio should have been more carefull with who she annoyed. Readcloak is obviously highly capable, and beware the Order when they encounter him. Masterfulk storytelling Giant, and the exposition was masterfull.
:elan: :*Sob* so smoothly worked into his dialogue too.

[TheBST]

Hmm. I thought this'd be drawn out more. I guess Tsukiko's purpose, in the end, was to get this info to people who didn't buy Start of Darkness and to show how cold-blooded Redcloak's become- and a bit arrogant about his ability to outfox Xykon.

In other news I think I just had a schadenfreudegasm.

[Capt Spanner]

You know, ever since Start of Darkness I was worried that Redcloak didn't quite have the balls to be truly Evil, with a capital "E".

I always figured he was under Xykon's thumb - er... phalange - but this strip just made me see him so differently.

Either that, or he was just hoping to burn Tsukiko inside as much as possible.

But either way: that. Was. AWESOME.

[fan4battle]

Well, congrats to the winners of the bet of how would Redcloak deal with Tsukiko! :smallbiggrin: I'm still gasping at how effective he is.

[Tordek]

Its a great panel, but I am confused; I thought you couldn't use command undead to make an undead creature injure itself:

From Paizo (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/commandUndead.html)

[quote]This spell allows you a degree of control over an undead creature. If the subject is intelligent, it perceives your words and actions favorably (treat its attitude as friendly). It will not attack you while the spell lasts. You can give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. Retries are not allowed. An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.

A nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell. When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. Nonintelligent undead won't resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders.

Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the commanded undead (regardless of its Intelligence) breaks the spell.

Your commands are not telepathic. The undead creature must be able to hear you.[quote]

Now the 'eat each-other' seems to get around this by having the wights harm other wights and not themselves, but the last one shouldn't feel the compulsion to set itself on fire. Unless wights don't count as intelligent, I'm not entirely sure about that part.

[The Succubus]

You know, ever since Start of Darkness I was worried that Redcloak didn't quite have the balls to be truly Evil, with a capital "E".

I always figured he was under Xykon's thumb - er... phalange - but this strip just made me see him so differently.

Either that, or he was just hoping to burn Tsukiko inside as much as possible.

But either way: that. Was. AWESOME.

I'd have to agree - Redcloak's little performance here is definitely Evil rather than evil.

[El_Frenchie]

There's something incredibly heart wrenching about seeing Tsukiko beg her undead to save her... Especially the wight that inherited Thanh's shoes because he wanted them.

Well played, Giant.

[Cranica]

The best part about this is that Redcloak is a cleric. He had a Silent Command Undead spell prepared just in case this happened.

Redcloak has become rather terrifying lately. He was dangerous before O'Chul's escape, perhaps, but never did he scare me more than Xykon. Xykon, evil as he is, is just screwing around - Redcloak knows exactly what he's doing, why he's doing it, and unlike Xykon won't stop because it fails to entertain him.

Also, as much as Tsukiko pissed me off, what a way to go. Redcloak really puts the capital E in Evil here.

[Sierim]

Wow, one of the best updates in a long, long while. I think I had the same reaction here as to V's Familicide:

Dumbstruck.

Excellently done, Giant. You continue to remind me of why I consider your comics the best out there. :smallbiggrin:

[cc_kizz]

Holy frickin' crap! Holy frickin' crap! And I missed the other two pages the first time around. I almost feel sorry for her, but she was blinded by her misplaced love for Xykon…

I can't wait to see what happens next.

[RMS Oceanic]

You know what would have made this even more awesome, in a brutally chilling way? If it was revealed Redcloak had regenerated his Eye and was hiding it.

So, now two questions remain, given we now know Xykon is on the way:

1. How will Redcloak explain Tsukiko's disappearence to Xykon? Xykon will definitely ask, since he left her that task, so Redcloak may have to bluff about that.
2. What will Redcloak do with the Phylactery? Will he just present it to Xykon, or will he attempt to conceal it in some manner?

In any case, I think we're going to see a relocation to the Western Continent in the next few strips.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why are people assuming Command Undead? Rebuking to Control works just as well, and gets around the pesky "will not obey suicidal orders" clause. True, we've seen Rebuking have a visual effect before, but the Giant doesn't have to be consistent about such things.

[Skeletoff]

Now the 'eat each-other' seems to get around this by having the wights harm other wights and not themselves, but the last one shouldn't feel the compulsion to set itself on fire. Unless wights don't count as intelligent, I'm not entirely sure about that part.

Perhaps they are created as unintelligent and gain intelligence afterwards? That would explain Redcloak's FIFO destruction algorithm.

[Sierim]

Why are people assuming Command Undead? Rebuking to Control works just as well, and gets around the pesky "will not obey suicidal orders" clause. True, we've seen Rebuking have a visual effect before, but the Giant doesn't have to be consistent about such things.

Second page, next to last panel. Redcloak says he used "Command Undead."

[Mutant Sheep]

:smalleek: I am very scared now. Giant, you're getting way too good at making me feel bad about people dying.

[Tulya]

Hmm. That's rather pathetic. Delusions are normal. Everybody tells themselves and lives with lies - they merely vary in their strength and pervasiveness. The wise person recognizes some extant of this weakness and accommodates where necessary and possible. Accordingly, I'm amazed Tsukiko can even cast clerical spells. Ignoring that the Order of the Stick is by no means a slave to the rules, I'd assume Tsukiko was a Charisma-based divine caster if she hasn't already been stated to be a cleric for her Mystic Theurgy.

Too bad for her.

[Cranica]

Now the 'eat each-other' seems to get around this by having the wights harm other wights and not themselves, but the last one shouldn't feel the compulsion to set itself on fire. Unless wights don't count as intelligent, I'm not entirely sure about that part.

Wights have 11 int, so I would think they'd count. I think it's just artistic license.

[Cracklord]

I think I just had an evilgasm.

[zimmerwald1915]

Second page, next to last panel. Redcloak says he used "Command Undead."
In the same panel he also says "ability," as in class ability, such as an evil cleric's Rebuke Undead, rather than "spell". But then that's just dueling semantics, and the Giant's never been under an obligation to be consistent about that either.

[luc258]

Great comic, Redcloak is totally badass ever since this Team Evil arc started.
I also like how the Big Spoiler about the ritual from SOD was made available for readers who don't have access to it.

Still, so many questions left:

Where did Xykon go, what was he doing?

Will our most favorite lich with the badass crown show who is really in charge when he returns?
I think he is suspicious about Redcloak already. Tsukiko suddenly gone might make him suspicious despite what excuse RC comes up with. So we might see what the Evil butch does when his evil bitch tries to fight back


What will be his reaction when Tsukiko is gone missing?

What does Redcloak intend to do with the phylactery since [sod spoiler]his first attempt to control Xykon with it horribly failed?

Who was the old goblin and what was he doing? (i think some kind of craftsmith related with RC's phylactery part is most likely by now)

[kojar]

The best part about this is that Redcloak is a cleric. He had a Silent Command Undead spell prepared just in case this happened.

the duration is one day per level and that would be about 18 days for him so I think he casts at a permanent rate for safety reasons but it is still a wise precaution while working with someone like Tsuiko (well done, redcloak).

Edit: nevermind, he was talking about the ability he cast when he entered the room.

[Orzel]

Ah memories.

I remember when my cleric did that to a caster. We tossed the last Undead off a cliff.

This is why undead are terribad primary minions.

[Asta Kask]

Why are people assuming Command Undead? Rebuking to Control works just as well, and gets around the pesky "will not obey suicidal orders" clause. True, we've seen Rebuking have a visual effect before, but the Giant doesn't have to be consistent about such things.


Second page, next to last panel. Redcloak says he used "Command Undead."

"Command Undead ability". I think he rebuked them. Doesn't matter now, really. That last wight is going to look like mr. Creosote.

http://rufflesandpearls.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mr-creosote.jpg

[Sierim]

In the same panel he also says "ability," as in class ability, such as an evil cleric's Rebuke Undead, rather than "spell". But then that's just dueling semantics, and the Giant's never been under an obligation to be consistent about that either.

I noticed that as well. I assumed it was Rebuke Undead when I read it, but it's reasonable for people to take it at face value given the text.

[Cranica]

the duration is one day per level and that would be about 18 days for him so I think he casts at a permanent rate for safety reasons but it is still a wise precaution while working with someone like Tsuiko (well done, redcloak).

He explicitly states he used it as he entered the room.

[Agnostik]

So which divine class did Tsukiko have levels in to qualify for MT? She obviously had an abysmal Wisdom score.

[evileeyore]

YYYEEEEESSSSSS!


And that is how Evil rolls baby!

[Tordek]

So, now two questions remain, given we now know Xykon is on the way:

1. How will Redcloak explain Tsukiko's disappearence to Xykon? Xykon will definitely ask, since he left her that task, so Redcloak may have to bluff about that.

Why does he have to explain anything?

Xykon: Where's Tsukiko?
Redcloak: Last time I saw her she was with her wights acting strangely, and that was hours ago. I have no idea where she's gotten to.
Xykon: Well, keep one eye peeled for her. Got my phylactery?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Ahahahahahahaha!

Now that I have that out of my system... was there a particular reason he wanted the wights to eat themselves "in the order in which (they) were created"?

Wights have control over the spawns they create, so Redcloak probably just controlled the eldest. The one he controlled, therefore, has to be the last one to die, or else the chain of control is broken.

On the subject of what ability Red used, he explicitly says Command Undead. If you're willing to stretch that to mean he used Rebuke Undead instead, you should also be willing to stretch it to say he used Control Undead instead.

[carldot34]

OH. WOW.

When is this story arc going to appear in print????

[theNater]

I noticed that as well. I assumed it was Rebuke Undead when I read it, but it's reasonable for people to take it at face value given the text.
When a rebuke is used for control, it is called commanding the undead. Add to that the fact that the spell is an arcane spell and would not necessarily allow Redcloak to order them to destroy themselves, I think it's safe to say he was using the cleric ability.

[factotum]

Rebuke effectively becomes Command against low hit dice undead anyway, so maybe that's what he meant. It certainly makes more sense for the reader for him to word it the way he did, because you'd have to be familiar with D&D rules to know that Rebuke works that way.

[Shatteredtower]

I'm reminded of Granny Weatherwax's observation that all sin starts with treating people as things. That's how Tsukiko would assess what Redcloak just did to her and her creations.

Her death may be appropriate to her actions, but her last words are very sad. Naive, sure, even foolish, but it's still heart-breaking to see her betrayed by those she thought she loved, those she believed could love her back if only she took good care of them. Then it turns out that they'll kill her and themselves without a second thought or shred of remorse. Redcloak didn't pull a single punch here.

What really gets me is that the entire time we're treated to her final words, the panels stay fixed on Redcloak's reaction. All the gloating and anger are passed, and that's not his usual expression of annoyance. It's more like the expression he had on his face when he tried to reassure his reflection it will all be worth it. He doubtless still believes these actions necessary (and for what he wants, it's difficult to find an alternative now), but he's not reacting well to what she's saying. Not surprising, seeing as he just ordered someone killed by those she saw as family. That's got to be way too familiar to him.

I think he relates way too well to the wights here: as betrayers with no choice (as he sees it), and as dangerous tools that will have to be destroyed once their work is done. Maybe he's realizing that he's done none of this for love of his family or people? Probably not.

That was a powerful scene. I'm a bit worried about where things go next. Redcloak has a history of underestimating Xykon in critical moments. It's time to see how well he's learned from that.

[Kojiro]

Ouch. That's pretty unpleasant. Also doesn't solve all of Redcloak's problems; as mentioned (even by him), her death is going to mess things up: Depending on whether or not he has his own plans for the phylactery (if he gives it back then that would probably tide Xykon over more than Tsukiko's death), and coming back to find her dead and to learn that the phylactery thing was a false alarm will probably absolutely infuriate Xykon, even if Redcloak somehow manages to put as much blame as possible on Tsukiko. He's taking the lesser of the two dangerous paths, to be sure, but it's still dangerous, and there's a good chance of really, really bad things coming of this. His chances, and by extension the chances for all the goblins in Azure City, of coming out of this completely unscathed are next to nothing.

[Werbaer]

1. How will Redcloak explain Tsukiko's disappearence to Xykon? Xykon will definitely ask, since he left her that task, so Redcloak may have to bluff about that.
My guess:
"The resistance snatched the Phylactery. Tsukiko went after them, and then the mountain collapsed."

[HandofShadows]

Brutal. But did anyone really expect anything different?

[eilandesq]

In a world where speaking with the dead might well be doable even with a missing corpse--particularly for an epic-level lich sorcerer with a necromantic theme--Redcloak's failure to heed #7 on the Evil Overlord List may well come back to haunt him:

When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."

[kalkyrie]

I'm tempted to start a thread arguing that Redcloak is Chaotic Good.

[eras10]

Chilling and gruesome. Good villain stuff. And used on an unlikable character, which helps keep the complaints down.

Given the number of major characters the Oracle has predicted will be killed off, I presume I will have reason to be impressed with Rich's guts again before the story wraps up. Nothing hurts a story like refusing to let bad things happen to the heroes.

Yeah, the was a great Bluff check Redcloak made, including on himself, about 'controlling' Xykon though.

It does look like Command Undead is being superceded / house-rule-empowered, etc, but it doesn't really matter. The fact that he could use it to kill Tsuikko is key. The fact that the undead wouldn't have killed themselves after isn't important - he would have had no trouble whatsoever wiping them out himself. This way it makes a chilling punctuation about the mindlessness of undead.

[saeval]

I just finished reading "Start of Darkness" before getting to this comic. absolutely fantastically done.

[Morty]

That was a powerful scene. I'm a bit worried about where things go next. Redcloak has a history of underestimating Xykon in critical moments. It's time to see how well he's learned from that.

His claim that he's subtly controlling Xykon suggests to me that he hasn't learned very well. But then, maybe he just didn't want to admit the real nature of the relationship between him and Xykon.

[BenjCano]

In the RAW, all spells that grant direct control over undead are from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Rich may take artistic license in the effects of spells, but he's never done anything that drastically different from the mechanics before.

And this comic made me comment on the forums for the first time in a good long while to say this: brilliant. Horrifying, but brilliant. Redcloak's look of stoic indifference as Tsukiko died sold it. He looks like a man waiting for a bus.

[Sierim]

As others have already stated, the Command Undead ability (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Turn_or_Rebuke_Undead#Commanded) is distinct from the Command Undead spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm).

[JoseB]

Impressive. REALLY impressive.

Given that Xykon is about to show up, I truly hope that, if Redcloak is thinking of performing a phylactery switcheroo, he has already made a duplicate. Otherwise a very uncomfortable situation will develop.

[wowy319]

Man, that Redcloak really is just a good guy at heart. Nothing but a tortured soul whose every action is justified by his tragic past.

[Zombimode]

I noticed that as well. I assumed it was Rebuke Undead when I read it, but it's reasonable for people to take it at face value given the text.

No, not really. Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) does not appear on the cleric spell list.

[wowy319]

No, not really. Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) does not appear on the cleric spell list.

High-level clerics can use rebuke undead (a class feature) to command undead. So it's no surprise it's not in their spell list.

[wowy319]

I'm tempted to start a thread arguing that Redcloak is Chaotic Good.

Please, for the love of all that is sane and just in the world, save us the ulcers and don't. There are people out there who are thick enough to believe that.

[bladescape]

Wow. That was scary, and awesome at the same time.

I think this punctuates an interesting point. That no matter how powerful Xykon is compared to RedCloak, and put simply, he is more powerful, RedCloak is far tactically superior.

In that instance, he had the cards to counter anything Tsukiko had. It almost seemed that he'd been ready for her betrayal.

Brilliant stuff. :smallbiggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

No, not really. Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) does not appear on the cleric spell list.

Just as Turn Undead has a variant that allows the undead to be outright destroyed, Rebuke Undead has a variant that allows them to be commanded. It is this ability that Redcloak made reference to, not the spell.

[Captainocaptain]

Redcloak could have been using the Command Undead feat, which allows clerics better control over undead by expending Rebukes. I would most likely say artistic license though.
And may I just say, this is one of the reasons Redcloak is my favorite character. Everyone loves a hero, but there is nothing quite like a great villain.

[The Dark Fiddler]

As others have already stated, the Command Undead ability (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Turn_or_Rebuke_Undead#Commanded) is distinct from the Command Undead spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm).


No, not really. Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) does not appear on the cleric spell list.

Redcloak researched a divine version of the spell, and while he was at it, he bumped it up a few levels and got rid of the pesky "controlled undead won't be suicidal" clause. There, problem solved.



In the RAW, all spells that grant direct control over undead are from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Rich may take artistic license in the effects of spells, but he's never done anything that drastically different from the mechanics before.

I think you're overestimating how large of a change this would be.

[Redshiftblue]

Fantastic work. Excellent dialogue matched with progression of the story. Redcloak's expressionless face while it all happens is perfect, as is Tsukiko's pleading. He's right about undead being things.

Looking forward to see what happens to the phylactery and everyone involved.

[LordofNaught]

Well now we all know Tsukiko's real alignment. Stupid Evil.

[luc258]

About the whole who is controlling who discussion:
Xykon has been pursuing the gate ritual for 30 years which will not give him anything at all no matter the outcome and risks him getting permanently destroyed like it almost happened when he faced the ghost martyrs.
I think there is quite a good case to support Redcloaks boast about him controlling Xykon to some degree.

On the other hand you got the whole incident in SOD with Redcloak's brotherwhich would clearly show Xykon in charge.

[Quild]

Three whole pages at once, wow. Haven't seen that since a long time! Maybe since strip #672.

Epic strip btw. Since RC lost his eye, I thought he really was going down, but he totally seems to be controlling the situation. He's at least thinking so.

But I wonder...
- How does Tsukiko know that the phylactery has been located? Has she lied to Jirix in order to make Xykon come?
- If Xykon already know that the phylactery is found... What will RC do?
- Why would RC hide the phylactery from Xykon?

I should re-read SoD, but I also wonder why this ritual doesn't allow Xykon to use the snarl for his own purpose. Gates can't be moved in this plane?

[Cheesegear]

In that instance, he had the cards to counter anything Tsukiko had. It almost seemed that he'd been ready for her betrayal.

Judging by what Redcloak said about her constantly under-cutting him and him putting up with it for too long, it's certainly possible that he was ready for this fight the entire time.
And, going by the Command Undead Ace Card he had up his sleeve, it's probably right.

[wowy319]

Redcloak researched a divine version of the spell, and while he was at it, he bumped it up a few levels and got rid of the pesky "controlled undead won't be suicidal" clause. There, problem solved.

I think you're overestimating how large of a change this would be.

Except he's just using the class feature. There was no spell research involved because it was a class feature. Rules for this feature are readily available on the SRD and take a good minute or two to look up and read. The Cheat is behind the freakin' box.

[Stabbey]

What an amazing update.

Tsukiko's death was nasty, brutal, but absolutely necessary.

Really powerful writing.

[Roland Itiative]

Redcloak really is on a roll lately. His speech in this chapter was amazing. Well, the whole chapter was amazing. Still, I still think he's giving Tsukiko way too much information, even if he intends to (and probably already has) kill her.

It's quite funny how RC's views on undeath are not so different from how humans and the like see goblinkin, as simple objects. Sure, most undeads are devoid of any free will or real emotion, but the same can't really be said of someone such as Xykon.

[mrmcfatty]

just wanted to point out, that this is possibly one of the greatest strips to date.

I will say that in a minor way tsukiko's last words did make me feel a little sad, at her core, all she really wanted was to be loved :(

[AngelusAlvus]

If RC didn't bind Tsukio's soul, what prevents her from poping in front of Xykon and telling him everything? Roy and Roy's dad could appear as a ghost and only few people could see them. I think Xykon can see "supernatural stuff" anyway...

[Edhelras]

GAAH! That was..... horrible! HORRIBLE!

(And no, I'm NOT talking about the frequency of updates, now!)

It actually made me cringe, seeing Tsukiko killed in that horrible fashion. And the cynical way Redcloak made the wights "tidy up" afterwards. Man, what a man he is! I don't like Redcloak one bit (I'm with the good guys), but he sure is one of the most impressive villains I've ever met!


Only thing I wonder is - what about the janitor? Maybe he's that one loose end that will let Xykon find out what happened?

Also - can you actually make undead devour undead? And pursue directly self-destructive behaviour? Gotta go home and look a bit closelier at my Libris Mortis...

[Shatteredtower]

His claim that he's subtly controlling Xykon suggests to me that he hasn't learned very well. But then, maybe he just didn't want to admit the real nature of the relationship between him and Xykon.

The thing is that this time, if he doesn't have the proper hook to manipulate the lich, it's difficult to see how either of them will continue to play a part in the story unless Xykon is willing to just go and turn all Destroy the World after this.

Redcloak already learned one thing from loss of his eye, as indicated by his words to Thanh. He's always known enough to keep Xykon from ever learning the ritual's real purpose, while still underestimating him. I'm pretty sure he can still avoid a total loss here, but I'll agree that he may once again underestimate how badly Xykon is going to make him pay.

[Draconi Redfir]

Oh wow, Clever Redcloak. You are real clever:smallamused:

[Zolem]

So which divine class did Tsukiko have levels in to qualify for MT? She obviously had an abysmal Wisdom score.

No, she's a Cleric. I think she was a sorcerer though, good Charisma and dump in Int since it's not a casting stat. It would certainly explain why she's so stupid.



It's quite funny how RC's views on undeath are not so different from how humans and the like see goblinkin, as simple objects. Sure, most undeads are devoid of any free will or real emotion, but the same can't really be said of someone such as Xykon.

A big difference though is that Undead aren't natural. They are artificial. Created. Crafted. As someone once said "they aren't people, they are complex programs keeping a body running. Programs don't feel, but they can act like it."

[Roland Itiative]

If RC didn't bind Tsukio's soul, what prevents her from poping in front of Xykon and telling him everything? Roy and Roy's dad could appear as a ghost and only few people could see them. I think Xykon can see "supernatural stuff" anyway...

Well, depending on how the afterlife for other alignments work, I don't think spirits always have permission to leave and go back to the material plane... Specially the evil ones. Still, Tsukiko can still be contacted, if Xykon wills to waste resources doing so.

Also, I just looked back at 328, and Redcloak did cast a spell as soon as he entered the room. Did anyone notice that back when it was first released?

[oppyu]

Redcloak was always one of my favourite characters even before I tracked down 'Start of Darkness'. As a fan of his, I'm torn by his most recent story arc. On one hand, it's great that he's finally being shown to be a legendarily bad-ass villain. On the other hand, it establishes that he's a major villain who in all likelihood needs to be killed before the comic is done.

Also, does anyone remember Xykon's visit to the Oracle? They never showed his question, but if it was anything resembling 'Is Redcloak a trustworthy and worthwhile ally', I think we can safely assume what the Oracle's response would be after the last couple of strips.

[Nerd-o-rama]

First, I would like to say, holy ****.

Second (remotely after that) is: nice job hitting the salient points of Start of Darkness for the people who didn't buy it, Tsukiko and Redcloak.

Third: holy ****.

[Morty]

The thing is that this time, if he doesn't have the proper hook to manipulate the lich, it's difficult to see how either of them will continue to play a part in the story unless Xykon is willing to just go and turn all Destroy the World after this.

True. I don't expect Xykon to find out that the ritual doesn't do what he thinks it does, but I don't expect him to be easily fooled about Tsukiko's fate either.


Redcloak already learned one thing from loss of his eye, as indicated by his words to Thanh. He's always known enough to keep Xykon from ever learning the ritual's real purpose, while still underestimating him. I'm pretty sure he can still avoid a total loss here, but I'll agree that he may once again underestimate how badly Xykon is going to make him pay.

Indeed. Once more I get the feeling that Gobbotopia will feel the brunt of Xykon's anger. Again, not because of the ritual but because of Tsukiko's death.

[Roland Itiative]

A big difference though is that Undead aren't natural. They are artificial. Created. Crafted. As someone once said "they aren't people, they are complex programs keeping a body running. Programs don't feel, but they can act like it."

That works for soulless undead, like those wights. But not for ones like Xykon, who still has his soul controlling his undead body. He's an unnatural abomination run by magic? Yes. But he's still more than just a "tool", he's as much a "person" as Eugene's ghost was. RC doesn't seem to acknowledge the difference.

[IrnBruAddict]

As many others have said, best Redcloak moment yet. She shouldn't have been playing with the big boys.


Noticed he takes the half-ritual with him. Anyone else think he will confront Xykon with it and bluff that he found it near the resistance ambush and claim to Xykon that she betrayed them to the elves or was an Azurite double agent all along? (how much of a modifier to bluff could you get from having false evidence anyway?)

[Karuth]

Wow. A great comic.

I really loved how cool and elegantly Redcloak handled this situation.

I am pretty sure if it would come to a battle between Xykon and Redcloak, Redcloak would not go down easily and victory would not be a sure thing for Xykon.

And again it shows, it is not the number of spell slots that makes the winner.

[Khiron]

Tsukiko finally got what was coming to her. Good ridance.

[jedipilot24]

Also, does anyone remember Xykon's visit to the Oracle? They never showed his question, but if it was anything resembling 'Is Redcloak a trustworthy and worthwhile ally', I think we can safely assume what the Oracle's response would be after the last couple of strips.

What strip was this?

[Kish]

I should re-read SoD, but I also wonder why this ritual doesn't allow Xykon to use the snarl for his own purpose. Gates can't be moved in this plane?
Because it gives control of the Gates to the Dark One, not to the arcane spellcaster who casts the arcane half of the ritual.


Also, does anyone remember Xykon's visit to the Oracle? They never showed his question,
...because he didn't get to ask a question, because the Oracle wasn't there. And is unlikely to be there if Xykon tries to visit him again in the future, because he'll see Xykon coming, and "dude is freaking scary."

[Bastian]

Amazing.

Will try and articulate/elaborate more, but for now...

Amazing.

[Shale]

His claim that he's subtly controlling Xykon suggests to me that he hasn't learned very well. But then, maybe he just didn't want to admit the real nature of the relationship between him and Xykon.

They're controlling each other. Xykon's manipulated Redcloak into staying with him and accepting ever-greater sacrifices for the cause when the smart play was to walk away and find a new arcane specialist decades ago. That doesn't change the fact that the grand plan he's following is a pack of lies, and Redcloak has fed him those lies well enough that it took more than 30 years for Xykon to even get suspicious enough to ask for a second opinion on that piece of paper.

[Querzis]

A big difference though is that Undead aren't natural. They are artificial. Created. Crafted. As someone once said "they aren't people, they are complex programs keeping a body running. Programs don't feel, but they can act like it."

Except that they can still totally be people, many undeads (including lich) retain their soul and their minds from back when they were alive. Also lots of undead arent really created like ghost while Lich are created by themselves back when they were alive. Saying they are programs would be like saying that they were program when they were alive cause except becoming more nasty and not being able to taste coffee, there is absolutely no change in personnality between an old sorcerer and the lich he become two seconds later. Theres a big difference between souless Wights and a Lich, Redcloak better learn the difference fast and stop underestimating Xykon, doesnt he remember what that cost him last time?

[Kish]

As always, Redcloak is hypocritical even when there's a glimmer of truth in what he's saying. He started with Tsukiko's delusion that her wights were capable of caring about her, and segued seamlessly into one of the excuses he tells himself to avoid admitting he's Xykon's slave.

[Kobold-Bard]

I briefly considered withdrawing my pledge out of spite for this. I am very upset by Tsukiko's ironic (if not unexpected) demise.

Curse you Giant. Curse you for killin characters I actually like.

[Arrowstorm122]

Wonder what Xykon is going to say about the death of Tsukiko...

Still, since Xykon knows that the phylactery has been found, what was the deal with Redcloak making sure nobody knew the details?

[Deuce]

I think there's a good chance Xykon gets the phylactery back now. Wasn't Redcloak's original plan, but he may have to improvise. Either with the simple "Yup, got it back, let's move on", with Xykon so focused on the next gate he simply forgets the crazy chick - or with a more complex gambit that could involve framing the late Necromance-ette "She had it all along and was planning to it and THIS (waves arcane half of the ritual) to betray you."

[Toofey]

I love Redcloak's unchanging face while she's eaten.

[Pantler]

Love it. Begone, creepy heterochromatic witch!

[luc258]

It would be a problem for Redcloak if Xykon thinks Tsukiko died. There is a good chance Xykon would try to contact her, after all he made Redcloak summon some dead guy to ask him where his keys have been.

But if he thinks that Tsukiko run away he might not try that. He wouldn't try to scry her either, since she would be affected by cloister spell.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that Recloak, while trying to prevent his confrontation with Tsukiko till the end, has some kind of contingency plan in the case of a battle, which probably includes some kind of reasonable explanation in case she goes missing.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Woah. Just, woah. I knew htis was coming, and so did a lott of people, but still.

You're on a roll, Rich. So glad I donated.

[Morty]

They're controlling each other. Xykon's manipulated Redcloak into staying with him and accepting ever-greater sacrifices for the cause when the smart play was to walk away and find a new arcane specialist decades ago. That doesn't change the fact that the grand plan he's following is a pack of lies, and Redcloak has fed him those lies well enough that it took more than 30 years for Xykon to even get suspicious enough to ask for a second opinion on that piece of paper.

That's true, but Redcloak is still firmly in the subordinate position of this relationship. He has to lie and wriggle around to get Xykon to do anything, but Xykon just has to give an order.

[Kish]

Wonder what Xykon is going to say about the death of Tsukiko...

Still, since Xykon knows that the phylactery has been found, what was the deal with Redcloak making sure nobody knew the details?
Xykon knows the hobgoblins found the phylactery in the sewer.

He hasn't yet been told anything else. Anything about the Resistance.

Last strip, Tsukiko asked Redcloak how he was going to explain to Xykon that his hobgoblins had lost the phylactery. His reply wasn't, "I'll just tell him I got it back." Rather, it was, "I'm going to remind him that suppressing the rebellion was your assignment." So it seems unlikely that Redcloak plans on telling Xykon that the phylactery wound up in his hands.

[DigoDragon]

Well it looks like Tsukiko has been...

**Puts on shades**

...bitten off a bit more than she could be chewed. :smallcool:

[toughluck]

How will RC justify Tsukiko's death to Xykon? Like this:

X: Where's the pigtail chick?
R: Devoured by her wights.
X: Heh heh, comedy gold.

[Eurus]

Man. I can appreciate that Redcloak is efficient, but he intentionally did that in the most brutal way possible. For all the talk of him being level-headed, he still definitely has a sadistic streak. Evil as Tsukiko was, I couldn't help feeling sorry for her because of all the crazy. It's hard for me to hate someone who's that deluded.

[Agnostik]

No, she's a Cleric. I think she was a sorcerer though, good Charisma and dump in Int since it's not a casting stat. It would certainly explain why she's so stupid.Hmm, I thought the opposite. She seemed smart (high INT) but without a shred of common sense (low WIS) to me.

[illyrus]

Awesome. Probably my favorite comic to date.

[ArlEammon]

Poor poor evil and insane Tsukiko.

[Adeptus]

Awesome!

Nice to see the Redcloak from Start of Darkness showing through.

[Kish]

Tsukiko had to be a wizard, she talked about looking up non-core spells specifically to use against Haley, and sorcerers can only switch their spells known when gaining levels.

She also made a big point in the most recent/her last strip of being magically educated (in wizard academies, yet), in contrast to Xykon.

[Earl William]

Good job Giant. Over the last few strips you've made me feel sorry for both Elfy McRacist and Tsukiko. I didn't think that was possible.

[squirrel]

Hoe. Lee. Crap.

That's what I'm talking about. *slow clap*

[Craft (Cheese)]

But she never got to make out with Haley!

[Ninjaman]

Red cloak finally showed that he belongs on team evil, that was awesome.

[RaggedAngel]

Maybe this will be enough to convince everyone that Redcloak is Lawful Evil, not Lawful Neutral. Damn but that was cold and beautiful.

[Shreav]

Awesome (block of) comic(s). Fantastic.

[Scarlet Knight]

Her death may be appropriate to her actions, but her last words are very sad. Naive, sure, even foolish, but it's still heart-breaking to see her betrayed by those she thought she loved, those she believed could love her back if only she took good care of them. Then it turns out that they'll kill her and themselves without a second thought or shred of remorse. Redcloak didn't pull a single punch here.


Tsukiko was a young fool, and every action of hers was foolish. Loving the undead, overrating her own power, misjudging Redcloak, taunting him at every chance. There was no way it would end well for her ( though I was caught myself by how simple Redcloak's solution was).

Redcloak was not spinelss; he was strong. Strong enough not to fight until the right time.

[Agnostik]

But she never got to make out with Haley!By gawd, you're right, today we mourn fanservice. :smallfrown:

[ArlEammon]

Tsukiko was a young fool, and every action of hers was foolish. Loving the undead, overrating her own power, misjudging Redcloak, taunting him at every chance. There was no way it would end well for her ( though I was caught myself by how simple Redcloak's solution was).

Redcloak was not spinelss; he was strong. Strong enough not to fight until the right time.

How very Sun Tzu of you and RedCloak to realize.

[The Succubus]

But she never got to make out with Haley!

I hear there's this pledge drive that may remedy that particular issue, with the right donation. :smallwink:

Also, I just realised that Recloak did actually have the smallest amount of mercy here. If he had wanted to, he could have had the wights devour Tsukiko while she was still alive.

[deworde]

Well it looks like Tsukiko has been...

**Puts on shades**

...bitten off a bit more than she could be chewed. :smallcool:

Aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiyyy yyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

[Gift Jeraff]

Nooooo, not the wight with Thanh's shoes! Damn, so many characters I expected to last longer have been offed lately (Thog, Team Peregrine, Thanh, and Tsukiko).

Maybe Tsukiko will return as a ghost, who hates both the living and the undead, and has a thing for constructs... Nah.
Tsukiko had to be a wizard, she talked about looking up non-core spells specifically to use against Haley, and sorcerers can only switch their spells known when gaining levels.

She also made a big point in the most recent/her last strip of being magically educated (in wizard academies, yet), in contrast to Xykon.The Giant also said she's a necromancer, he just gave her too many schools by accident. So yeah, definitely a wizard.

[Edhelras]

Both the Command (Wiz2) and Control (Wiz7) undead spells are arcane spells.

Redcloak used, as he said, the Command undead ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)tied to being a high-lvl cleric.

If a good-aligned cleric has more than twice the amount of HD as the undead, the turning attempt will destroy rather than turn the undead. If an evil-aligned cleric uses the same ability, he can control, rather than just rebuke, the undead if he has twice as many HD as them.

Redcloak has at least 17 HD, being a lvl 17 cleric - the Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm) have 4 HD - so he can Command them with his class ability.

In order to do so, he needs a turning check result of 0 or lower... And the turning damage he needed was 16, in order to rebuke 4x4=16 HD of undead. As a lvl 17 cleric, his turning damage roll is 17 (clr lvl)+2d6+CHA score (unless he has feats that improves his turning/rebuking ability). Which means that even with a double one with the d6's he would easily Command these 4 Wights.

The interesting thing is that this addresses something I've sometimes wondered about: Does the Turn Undead action need to be voiced out (as I would instinctely believe; "Fall back foul minions of undeath!" etc. etc.), or can it be performed even in magical silence? The description does not state it clearly, other than that "you must present your holy symbol" - which Redcloak is carrying around his neck. I have reached the conclusion that a Turn Undead attempt need not be voiced out - which explains why Redcloak could use it without Tsukiko noticing it, maybe? However, I'm not sure whether I've seen the graphics in 828 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) before - have we seen someone turning undead before, in OOTS?

A personal experience was when I was playing Cormyr - the tearing of the weave, and the party were fighting aboard the Necreme - a boat manned by skeletal orc oarsmen. The Paladin had been brought aboard the Necreme by the wizard, using Dimension door. In order to stop the oarsmen from rowing the Necreme further from the shore (and the rest of the party), he used his Turn Undead ability to turn the oarsmen and make them stop rowing. However, he forgot that he has more than twice as many HD as them, so they were all destroyed.... So, the party won the Necreme, but it was much less useful without the skeletal rowers.... Being goodaligned, they couldn't create any more undead to replace them, either.

[DemonRoach]

Perfect :smallbiggrin:

[Grim Reader]

Tsukiko never much seemed the religous type to me. Has it ever been mentioned that she is a Cleric? If so, of which god? To be honest, she seems more the studious type to me. Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge -intelligent unsociable gothy type without a shred of common sense.

High Int, dump Wis in other words.

[Dziadek]

Loving her "children" to the very end. Beautiful. Simply, beautiful... :smallfrown:

[Kish]

Also, I just realised that Recloak did actually have the smallest amount of mercy here. If he had wanted to, he could have had the wights devour Tsukiko while she was still alive.
For that matter, it would probably, even now, have hurt Tsukiko to hear him instructing her wights to kill each other, had he given those instructions while she was still alive.

DemonRoach, you're a halfling, not a pixie.

[Kobold-Bard]

No, she's a Cleric. I think she was a sorcerer though, good Charisma and dump in Int since it's not a casting stat. It would certainly explain why she's so stupid.

...

Disagree. She seemingly had a higher Int than Xykon, who had the advantage of old age stat boosts and Lich stat boosts. Plus she researched the Orb spells specifically to counter Hayley, not something a Sorceress could easily do. She was arrogant, reckless and more than a bit delusional, but far from stupid.


But she never got to make out with Haley!

We have a subforum devoted to playgrounders doing art and such, I'm sure someone could be persuaded into making that a reality.


Tsukiko never much seemed the religous type to me. Has it ever been mentioned that she is a Cleric? If so, of which god? To be honest, she seems more the studious type to me. Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge -intelligent unsociable gothy type without a shred of common sense.

High Int, dump Wis in other words.

Probably whichever God was most cool with rampant Necromancy, or maybe the ideal of "I want Zombies!!". She had a minimum Wis of 15 to cast Flame Strike, so it wasn't that low.

[talkamancer]

Tsikko like Thog before her has no X's why the ambiguity ? We got nice clear xX's when Roy died. :smallannoyed:

[The Succubus]

Tsikko like Thog before her has no X's why the ambiguity ? We got nice clear xX's when Roy died. :smallannoyed:

In fairness, "crunch, crunch, crunch" seems pretty unambiguous to me. :smallyuk:

[Alchemistmerlin]

Maybe this will be enough to convince everyone that Redcloak is Lawful Evil, not Lawful Neutral. Damn but that was cold and beautiful.

Given that people were unwilling to admit miko was wrong after the gods actually cast her down and effectively shouted "YOU WERE WRONG" in her face...I doubt anyone will admit anything from this.

[Welf]

uh, that was a brutal way to die. :smalleek:

[luc258]

Tsikko like Thog before her has no X's why the ambiguity ? We got nice clear xX's when Roy died. :smallannoyed:

I don't see the ambiguity. She died off panel while being drained to death by her former wights.
The "crunch, crunch, crunch" should end any thoughts of her somehow surviving this.

[Grim Reader]

She had a minimum Wis of 15 to cast Flame Strike, so it wasn't that low.

Archivists are Int-based Divine casters. Not Wis. Which is the point I was trying to make, how she could have a serious casting stat and still have so abysmally low common sense, high self-delusion etc.

[Lord Raziere]

"All of you kill each other. Last wight in Seattle, set yourself on fire and hit the lights."

This was funny for purely the way Redcloak said all that…

and awesome to.

but wait…..so the rift will be teleported somewhere else, but in the rift is not the Snarl, its like another world or something, so when Redcloak teleports the Gate…..what will happen? hrmmm…..

[Agnostik]

Archivists are Int-based Divine casters. Not Wis. Which is the point I was trying to make, how she could have a serious casting stat and still have so abysmally low common sense, high self-delusion etc.Yeah, her being an archivist makes more sense than cleric. I completely forgot about that class. Not to mention that Dark Knowledge ability suits her flavor-wise.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

My theory for how Redcloak explains her disappearance is to tell it like it is. It goes like:

RC: "She monologued her entire plan to take my place. Do successful villains monologue their plans? We don't need someone that dumb on our team, so I fired her."

X: "By fired you mean?"

RC: "I made her own wights eat her."

X: " Nice."

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't think delusion or misconception are things dictated solely by your stats. Even the wisest person in the world can be hoodwinked by someone who got lucky.

[unzerpum]

I love the Machiavellian power play that is going on here. And I don't just mean Redcloak.

Consider: Xykon gave Tsukiko his half of the ritual to analyze, and didn't tell Redcloak he had done so. Why? Because Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak, and because he wants to be able to complete the ritual by himself. He's planning to turn on Redcloak as much as Redcloak is planning to turn on him. And now Redcloak knows it.

Xykon is smarter than he looks. If Redcloak keeps Tsukiko's fate to himself, Xykon may outwardly appear unconcerned, passing it off with a snarky comment... but inwardly he's going to be wondering what Tsukiko discovered, where the other half of the ritual is, and what Redcloak knows.

Can't wait to see how this plays out. :smallsmile:

[Gholateg]

Oh, that went better then I thought it would. I've got the creepy crawlies in a good way. THAT'S how you work Evil. Right there. Cold, long plotting, and merciless. Not since Xy beat the crap out of V have we seen such a cold, methodical, breaking of a person and their beliefs.

It's the little touches, telling the last ghoul to burn himself in the fireplace so he doesn't torch the study, that he had controlled them as soon as he entered the room, but let them carry on as normal, (still letting them trash his study!) the "telling the truth to stun the idiot" ploy... Mm... Redcloak, I want to just give you evil snuggles and tea.

Edit: Oh, for the one who asked before: They're basically moving the holes in the jail, so the snarl can slip out his Evil Doodle Tentacles and strangle everything in sight. The Ritual isn't to *free* the snarl completely, they're just pointing it's windows at people they don't like.

[Takver]

I agree with everyone who says Redcloak is deluding himself. Xykon is not a pawn.

For some reason all I can think about is just how much chewing is required to eat the entirety of an adult body. Ugh, that's going to take forever.

Also so the only survivors of this little mini-arc are Redcloak and Niu. Resistance is gone, hobgoblin unit is gone, tsukiko and her wights are gone. That's a lot of death.

[pendell]

Wow.

W-o-w. Wow.

I knew Wrong-Eye had to dispose of Tsukiko. And he did it in a clean and efficient way, using minimum power. Truly worthy of this strip's villain.

I should, however, note that I'm a little bit disappointed by Tsukiko's death. Not that it isn't appropriate, and not that it isn't plausible. No, it's just that -- I feel the character deserved more of a boss fight. A chance to go down in a blaze of glory. Being devoured by her own wights -- learning in a painful way that these creatures were not what she thought they were -- was poetic justice, but it still seems a little -- anti-climactic. That's the word I'm looking for. Tsukiko's death is an anti-climax.



I would like to also address the concept of "things are more violent/gruesome/terrifying if they happen off-panel" i.e. Raping Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis, 90% of the Film Jaws, and now the death of Tsukiko.


EXACTLY the point I made about implosion. Sometimes the more horrifying something is, the better it is left to the imagination. Explicitly portraying Tsukiko being turned into The Other White Meat would have been offensive, and it would also have been less effective. There's no way the Giant, in the context of stick figure art, could portray such a horrifying thing anywhere near as well as we can imagine it. So he merely suggests the thought to our minds, and we fill in the details ourselves. The resulting mental image is far more horrifying and effective than anything he could express directly with stick figure art.

Also, now those of us who read Start of Darkness can stop spoilering the exact things Wrong-eye has been with-holding from Xykon. Now it's been spelled out in the main comic. Hooray!


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Reader]

I don't think delusion or misconception are things dictated solely by your stats. Even the wisest person in the world can be hoodwinked by someone who got lucky.

That is true. Especially if it is something you really want to believe. But Tsukiko combines self-delusion with a severe lack of common sense, impulsivness etc. When the traits start to stack up like that it becomes more difficult to see how she can have the exceptional Wisdom required for the higher spells.

[AutomatedTeller]

This was a great comic. Tsukiko was one of my least favorite characters, so am happy to see her dead... but man. That's brutal. I felt sorry for her. And I never, ever thought I would feel that.

As for Xykon - I think the conversation between Redcloak and Xykon will go something like this:

X: Where's Tsukiko?
R: I killed her. She was plotting against me and it was getting annoying. I took control of her wights and they drained and ate her.
X: Ooh - nice touch.

I honestly don't really see why Xykon would care about Tsukiko.

[snikrept]

Redcloak had better trap her soul or else Xykon may find a way to ferret out the truth later.

Also, who is the old guy who got murdered? Close enough to Redcloak to Raise him I wonder?

EDIT also, Redcloak, I am disapppointed, you launched into a whole Evil Monologue Plan Explanation totally unnecessarily when you could have just said "no, I'm not going to tell you, seize her." I thought you were smarter than that !

[RMS Oceanic]

I thought Speak with/Create Undead requires (at least part of) a body, so Redcloak's orders to eat her, then each other, then burn the last one standing, thoroughly eliminates that possibility. The only way Xykon is communicating with her now is either Planar Shifting to whatever plane her soul is on, or forcing Redcloak to perform a True Resurrection.

As for Tsukiko's recklessness, remember that she's come out on top against Redcloak every time they clashed for a year. This would easily cultivate a false sense of security in what she can do and say against him, not figuring the danger she put herself in.

[rbetieh]

Fantastic strip, you most certainly do not mess with the Redcloak...:smallamused:

[Agnostik]

Besides, Mr. Burlew has a terrific ability to translate D&D stats into great characters and at the same time, their stats are usually apparent. I mean, it's obvious that V is highly intelligent, but somewhat lacking in wisdom (not as much as Tsukiko, but still), and that Durkon has probably the most common sense in the group (tree phobia aside), but he's not particularly sharp. This subtlety is one of the things I really like about the comic.

[RMS Oceanic]

I honestly don't really see why Xykon would care about Tsukiko.

The thing is - unless he left it lying around and she interpreted it as a secret sign to figure it out - Xykon did order her to figure out the ritual. He's going to ask about that sooner or later, and Redcloak will need an answer handy.

[ghoul-n]

...Finally.

[Kish]

Also, who is the old guy who got murdered? Close enough to Redcloak to Raise him I wonder?
I doubt it. If he was alive, he'd be someone who knows that the last place Tsukiko was seen was in Redcloak's private study. Redcloak's not one for relying on the loyalty of his subordinates to ensure their silence.

[KuH]

Durkon is a good example: high wisdom and irrational unwise tree phobia.

Tsukiko could be the same: irrational unwise love of undead plus unknown wisdom.

[warmachine]

I was going to ask why Tsukiko didn't Control Undead herself, which, as a supernatural ability, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity or require concentration. A Mystic Theurge will most likely have Cleric levels. However, Mystic Theurge levels don't stack with Cleric and she's probably only got Cleric 3. Wights are 4 Hit Dice, meaning she must make a 13+ on a Charisma check. Worse, Redcloak may have Bolstered them as well, making their effective Hit Dice for Control/Rebuke/Turn effects around his level, making the counter Control attempt effectively impossible.

Redcloak thought of this on the spot? Even I had to look up those rules. I even forgot that undead can be controlled or subverted so easily. Redcloak is dangerous. Never give Redcloak even a moment to think or he'll blindside you with obscure effects right out of the core ruleset. Don't gloat, just attack immediately!

[SpaceBadger]

Wow! No time to read all comments, but I sure do appreciate the quick rate of new strips being posted - thanks, Giant! This story is cooking right along!

Nice to see the end of Tsukiko; never liked her anyway.

Redcloak really needs to put a few ranks in Bluff - panel 1 and 3 - or was he even trying? Maybe he had already decided to dispose of Tsukiko, so it didn't matter. But he did seem to be trying to put her off, at least until panel 3, when he seemed at a loss for words...

Dunno why he felt it necessary to detail so much to her before getting rid of her - necessary exposition for those who haven't read SoD, I guess, so that the webcomic is internally complete without needing reference to the prequels.

Good stuff!

[Bastian Weaver]

Oh, yeah. I loved every moment of it.
For me, Tsukiko is the embodiment of every player (especially the girl players) that go "Oh, I know everybody thinks that this character is a cruel monster, but why can't you all understand that all he/she needs is True Love, namely, me?!"
And that's exactly what should happen to such characters. Definitely. Using a powerful NPC to give her some taste of that very medicine.
You da man, Giant. You da man.

[The Glyphstone]

Fantastic. Horrifying.

[Pronounceable]

A fitting end.

[Kurald Galain]

Heh. I just realized what that Shout spell would have done had it not been counterspelled. It would have dealt some 17 points of damage to Redcloak, deafened him for a few rounds, and broke his mirror, save for half. Oh noes!

Sorry Tsuki, if that's the best backup plan you can come up with, then the High Priest of the Dark One is way out of your league.

[Circle of Life]

Heh. I just realized what that Shout spell would have done had it not been counterspelled. It would have dealt some 17 points of damage to Redcloak, deafened him for a few rounds, and broke his mirror, save for half. Oh noes!

Sorry Tsuki, if that's the best backup plan you can come up with, then the High Priest of the Dark One is way out of your league.

I imagine it was actually meant to kill the ghouls holding onto her, not drastically harm Redcloak.

[Qwoter]

Wonderful.
I just hope this scene wouldn't influence the whole comic to have screen version someday.

[Gholateg]

Wow.

W-o-w. Wow.

I knew Wrong-Eye had to dispose of Tsukiko. And he did it in a clean and efficient way, using minimum power. Truly worthy of this strip's villain.

I should, however, note that I'm a little bit disappointed by Tsukiko's death. Not that it isn't appropriate, and not that it isn't plausible. No, it's just that -- I feel the character deserved more of a boss fight. A chance to go down in a blaze of glory. Being devoured by her own wights -- learning in a painful way that these creatures were not what she thought they were -- was poetic justice, but it still seems a little -- anti-climactic. That's the word I'm looking for. Tsukiko's death is an anti-climax.

I have to respectfully disagree. I mean, yes she's had/has a fanbase, and she's had little moments here and there, but she was basically there as a foil for RC. How much of her would he put up with, how close is she getting to replacing him as Xy's main caster minion, and so on.
She was the typical "Evil because evil is cool" staff chick, who never fully grasped just what Evil means. Having her in some sort of knock down, drag out caster battle would honestly cheapen Redcloak as a villain, that he let this bubble gum snapping, lich-posters-on-her-wall perky goth break his carefully controlled demeanor. He would not have lowered himself to an actual fight with some bone-humping twit in a mini skirt.

Redcloak is playing the long game, he's far seeing, and he KNOWS that when he's done, his people will either be free, or the whole world will burn. He KNOWS that not only will he die, but his soul will be destroyed, as will the soul of every goblin on the planet, so that when the gods remake things, his people will never be canon fodder again. Everyone seems to forget that, that he's lost more, and given up more then anyone in the comic, he's willing to CEASE TO BE, and be utterly forgotten, in order to raise up his people.

[super dark33]

*Superdark uses skill: Perform (jig)*

:smallbiggrin:

[Grim Reader]

Durkon is a good example: high wisdom and irrational unwise tree phobia.

Tsukiko could be the same: irrational unwise love of undead plus unknown wisdom.

Durkon -high wisdom and an irrational fear of trees, something alien to his formative environment and knowledge base.

Tsukiko -irrational, unwise love of the undead, in the face of every bit of lore about them. Undead are clearly her specialist subject, where she ahs her deepest knowledge. Its like a nuclear physicist thinking Plutonium just needs a hug really. Also, impulsiveness, recklessness and lack of common sense.

In short, Durkon generally shows high wisdom outside of one area he doesn't know much about. Tsukiko never showed high wisdom in any area, quite the opposite.

[Themrys]

Well, I can't say I mourn Tsukiko's demise. She was a nasty, evil teenager and lacking character.
(Like most female villains in this comic. Their motives seem to amount to "love", respectively "hating someone who said their haircut was ugly". Which is sad, although they are quite funny as individuals. But there's still hope...Sabine could have an Evil plan of her own.)

Redcloak shouldn't have left the room before Tsukiko was devoured. Maybe the undead do have feelings, after all, and have, unknown to Redcloak, not really killed her.
I'm pretty sure "make sure your opponent is dead" is somewhere on the evil overlord list. Granted, they may have bitten off her head off-panel, but the last undead may still resist the order to set itself on fire.

(Even though they might not be able to develop feelings according to D&D rules, RC has not read the D&D rules and therefore can't be sure.)



Its like a nuclear physicist thinking Plutonium just needs a hug really.

Which is not uncommon, in a metaphorical sense. I don't think you'll ever hear a scientist say "I have dedicated my life to researching that substance, but now, in light of my gained knowledge, I have to admit it's just too dangerous to be used by mankind."

On the other hand, you're right...Tsukiko wouldn't look half as stupid had she just said "Undead creatures can be used safely".

[Edhelras]

BTW, a "y" missing in "phylactery" in panel 5...

One other thing: Does anyone remember what kind of Ring protects against level draining?
I know a few that does so in CRPGs, but I cannot remember if such a ring is listed in DnD. I couldn't find it in the SRD. Maybe in the Libris Mortis, will check when back home...

[Nenec]

Well...this was really really brutal and sad.
All team evil always had was being equally evil and funny, from my perspective. This new revealed face of RC is only...coldly brutal over every limit, with not a bit of humor. Killing Tsukiko that way was probably the worse way oen could have figured, slowly chewed to death by your beloved "kids".
Eh, as I said for the previous strip, I always liked Tsukiko and was beginning to like her more every time, so even if she showed here to be extremely stupid this is one of the deaths that sadden me more in the whole comic's story.
So, I hope Xycon will give a good treat to RC, that would really make me happy. After all RC is showing too much self confidence, and that's a stupid thing from him, underrating Xycon like that. After all, his missing eye should remind him how much the lich can get angry, and that was just a taste of what he can do when angry...and he already doesn't trust RC much anyway so...

[FujinAkari]

Redcloak shouldn't have left the room before Tsukiko was devoured. Maybe the undead do have feelings, after all, and have, unknown to Redcloak, not really killed her.

No, his orders were "Drain her until the life leaves her THEN devour her." so the fact we heard the "Crunch"es says Tsukiko had been dead before RC left the room, he just didn't want to see the cannibalization.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Yesss!! That's why I love this comic since years ago!

Tsukiko had what she deserved as a witch! Pure genius!

BTW, Redcloack hasn't used any spell, but the clerical Command Undead ability, which doesn't have a top on the limit of the control over undead you get, so you can command suicidal orders. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Turn_or_Rebuke_Undead#Commanded


I'm tempted to start a thread arguing that Redcloak is Chaotic Good.

Redcloack has just entered into my top 3 favorite characters, I don't know what to think about that, as I myself am Chaotic Good-ish, and RC is...¿lawful Evil? I'm supposed to totally hate him... or it's that he is not LE anymore...

EDIT: i just love that we are almost back to 3 updates a week! :d

[Gholateg]

Anyone else notice that giant mirror maguffin in most of the panels? Anyone else suddenly get a "DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN" vibe?

[Yana]

Rest in Peace, Thanh's Boots.

[LordFluffy]

:smalleek:

Redcloak just went from "awesome" to "Scary as hell".

Well done, Mr. Burlew.

[Agnostik]

Durkon -high wisdom and an irrational fear of trees, something alien to his formative environment and knowledge base.

Tsukiko -irrational, unwise love of the undead, in the face of every bit of lore about them. Undead are clearly her specialist subject, where she ahs her deepest knowledge. Its like a nuclear physicist thinking Plutonium just needs a hug really. Also, impulsiveness, recklessness and lack of common sense.

In short, Durkon generally shows high wisdom outside of one area he doesn't know much about. Tsukiko never showed high wisdom in any area, quite the opposite.The phobia of trees can also be discounted as a racial/upbringing affectation. Dwarves in general are depicted as tree-phobic several times (dendrophobic?).

[bluewurm]

awesome. byebye nuisance

[silvadel]

Oops -- he made one of the largest and oldest mistakes of cliched villianhood.

You *NEVER* leave the room until you are 101% CERTAIN the deed is done.

You are in the southern lands Redcloak -- for all you know she could even succeed in a divine intervention check and rat could rescue her.

SO much better to stand and watch it happen just to be sure.

[leakingpen]

Giant, AWESOME! Red Cloak just got awesomer. I'm curious though, does that get him xp, having his commanded undead kill her?

But, he's had a 30 year plan to give the gate to his god? HOLY CARP!

[tcrudisi]

I am very happy that Tsukiko is finally dead. As far as characters go, she was one of my least favorites. Her death was everything I hoped it would be.

Sorry if I bring up points that have been made in pages 3-7, but I haven't read those discussion pages yet.

I wonder how RC is going to get the arcane half by to Xykon. He should know that Tsukiko had it and suddenly RC is showing up with it. The fact she is missing is not nearly as bad, imo.

Like several people here, I believe the fact that RC said all of that out loud does not bode well for him. Yes, he probably did a good enough job taking out all the evidence, but I too suspect that Xykon was tevo'ing it or will tevo it later. Is Xykon's divination strong enough to break through RC's wards? I think they are (based on the epic level spell we've already seen him cast).

[legomaster00156]

That was brutal, Redcloak... but at the same time, I congratulate you on your efficient defeat of your enemies.

[King of Nowhere]

GO REDCLOAK GO!
I've been waiting this for years! And with much more style than "destruction", no less

Curious, in the end I see Tsukiko as a tragic figure, who acted on a totally misguided love.

[Gift Jeraff]

Durkon -high wisdom and an irrational fear of trees, something alien to his formative environment and knowledge base.

Tsukiko -irrational, unwise love of the undead, in the face of every bit of lore about them. Undead are clearly her specialist subject, where she ahs her deepest knowledge. Its like a nuclear physicist thinking Plutonium just needs a hug really. Also, impulsiveness, recklessness and lack of common sense.

In short, Durkon generally shows high wisdom outside of one area he doesn't know much about. Tsukiko never showed high wisdom in any area, quite the opposite.Despite being a man of religion, Thor's religion to be specific, Durkon had such little ranks in Knowledge (Religion) that he couldn't even identify a cleric of Thor's Chaotic Evil arch-nemesis.

[Sweet_Goddess]

What strip was this?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html
Panel 9



Tsikko like Thog before her has no X's why the ambiguity ? We got nice clear xX's when Roy died. :smallannoyed:

Unnecessary, because death by wight means she would have become a wight in 1d4 rounds herself, RC just preemptively had her eaten so she would stay dead... Tsukiko's stealing the Phylactery and taking it and the ritual half to the resistance, which was her responsibility to deal with, but she was really working with would be ruined if her wight body was walking around. So of course if RC is going to put all the blame on Tsukiko, and turn the guilt on XYkon for trusting her and giving her the ritual half, he has to cover up her death.

Since she was fully drained by the wights, I think true resurrection wouldn't work, since she'd just die immediately again, from lack of levels, and since she is dead, restoration won't work to put those levels back. Tsukiko is beyond resurrection.

[Edhelras]

Anyone else notice that giant mirror maguffin in most of the panels? Anyone else suddenly get a "DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN" vibe?

I think Xykon is watching the whole scene, using the mirror as a surveillance camera. And that explains where the Teevo has gone, too....

[Themrys]

Anyone else notice that giant mirror maguffin in most of the panels? Anyone else suddenly get a "DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN" vibe?

I expected to see one of the undead in it, proving it was a shapechanged goblin or whatever, and could, therefore, not be controlled by RC.

Are D&D undead visible in mirrors?

@FujinAkari: Well, it is possible they just gnaw on her arms. We cannot see, but RC cannot see it either...and he can't know for sure they don't have developed feelings for their "mommy".

[Beowulf DW]

That was appropriately gruesome. Never thought I'd use those two words together like that.

[Kish]

@FujinAkari: Well, it is possible they just gnaw on her arms. We cannot see, but RC cannot see it either...
They're disobeying Redcloak if they start eating her when she's not dead, and one of the big points of this scene is that disobeying the cleric who commands them isn't something that even occurs to undead.

And as for Redcloak not seeing it either, you're taking a great deal for granted if you're assuming that he looked away before seeing X's in her eyes just because we didn't get to see them.

I doubt he's even bothered by them eating her. He's leaving because he knows the undead he controls well enough to know that no further supervision is necessary, and he has things to do.

[TinyMushroom]

Goodbye, Tsukiko. I'd say we thought you were awesome, but apparently I'm the only one.

[suszterpatt]

I rarely comment on strips, but damn, this was just excellent. The whole "undead are just weapons" thing, Tsukiko's last words, Redcloak's completely neutral expression throughout her getting killed... it's strips like this that make this comic a real piece of art. :)

[Kurald Galain]

I imagine it was actually meant to kill the ghouls holding onto her, not drastically harm Redcloak.

Perhaps, but wights also have more hit points than that.


Tsukiko is beyond resurrection.

Yes. Also relevant is that she is beyond the reach of Speak With Dead (which requires a mostly-intact corpse).

[Themrys]

They're disobeying Redcloak if they start eating her when she's not dead, and one of the big points of this scene is that disobeying the cleric who commands them isn't something that even occurs to undead.

My point was that Redcloak has not read the D&D rulebook and therefore can not know for sure what undead can or cannot feel or do.

While there may be no consequences, he sure acted careless.

[4is111]

At the end of this last strip, 830, Redcloak ordered the wights to devour Tsukiko and then each other until there was only one left. That means that the last wight would have devoured almost 3 times its own mass in a short time span. Won't that cause its belly to burst, and even if it doesn't, why bother having the wights devour each other at all if he's just going to burn the last one? There's the same amount of wight to burn, so why bother having them eat each other? I was under the impression that Redcloak understood science at least that well.

[Kurald Galain]

My point was that Redcloak has not read the D&D rulebook and therefore can not know for sure what undead can or cannot feel or do.

Actually, he has (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html). (edit) Also, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). Redcloak seems to make a point out of reading as many rulebooks as possible.

Actually, so did Kubota (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html), except that he was reading the wrong edition.

[Aenghus]

Ugh. What a way to go.

But I'm not surprised. In most versions of D&D clerics are better fighting or using undead than wizards, even necromancers, precisely because of Turn/rebuke powers and anti-undead spells.

[Shale]

What makes you think he hasn't read the core rules? He's explicitly read the splatbooks. Remember the Xykon triplets?

[Kojiro]

I honestly don't really see why Xykon would care about Tsukiko.

(Not the only person who's said this, but the most recent one.) As I and numerous other people have stated, in this thread and the last one, Tsukiko was working on direct orders from Xykon on the ritual, i.e. the most important thing short of his phylactery and an absolutely essential part of his plan. Ignoring her uses as a minion and pretty much everything else, that alone is why he would care about where she is and what she's doing. Personal Redcloak love/Tsukiko hate (on the part of the people who refuse to see this, not Xykon, obviously) does not change that.

[Gift Jeraff]

Does the fact that the boot-shod wight says they're sorry prove that Tsukiko was a smidgen right about the undead, or just that they still have a necromantic link to her (but Redcloak's Command Undead overpowers it)? Or am I reading too much into it?

[xyzchyx]

I think true resurrection wouldn't work, since she'd just die immediately again, from lack of levels, and since she is dead, restoration won't work to put those levels back. Tsukiko is beyond resurrection.Using in-game rules, a single properly worded wish spell could bring her back.

[el-pietro]

"Subtly controlling Xykon"? Oh, Redcloak. Your skills at self-deception are even greater than Miko's.

what self deception - Xykon thinks hes in control, but if their plan is sucessful then Xykon will have gained nothing while Redcloak will have given his people a city to call home and will have given control of the snarl to the Dark One

that sounds ideal for red Cloak even if he has to suffer years of humiliation to achieve it

[Ingus]

I like last strips very much. Puns aside, there's serious storytelling here.
Redcloack is now a respectable evil character, with a personal agenda and the ruthless power and the the sublery to really achieve it.

But, as I see it, this is the second idiot ball I see him doing here (first one is in Start of Darkness). He definitely needs the counseling of Tarquin :smallbiggrin:

[t209]

So the black squadron ate her or snap her neck to 360 degree.
P.S- Nice cover on O Chul's origin.
P.P.S- I hope they like dried up human!

[Dark Elf Bard]

Not only is Redcloak right about the nature of the undead, but also the fact that he had the final word with her, the fact that he used her creations against her, the fact that she was proven wrong in this act, and that she deserved what happened to her, makes this the greatest strip in a long history of great comic strips.

Redcloak may have upgraded himself to the position of BBEG, with Xykon as his dragon.
Now who's the bitch?

Also, the last panel is missing something. It starts with "S" and ends with "oul Bind."