[PF] You Want Me To Do What? All Right... [Archive]

ArcGygas

2012-01-23, 03:23 PM

So, one of my friends has asked me to create a party killer for his Pathfinder game. He wants me to absolutely destroy his group because they've gone and screwed the pooch and made the story undoable. Not to mention rape, pillaged, and crapped all over his own original campaign setting.

Now, he's out for blood, and has asked me to make them realize there are consequences for their actions.

As opposed to DM fiat death (rocks fall, you all die type thing), he's giving me the go ahead for something to completely wreck them.

Normally I'd make something myself, but the game's tomorrow and I've got work. He's given me access to Persist Spell and Divine Metamagic (using Cleric Channeling for Turn Undead), and if I ask nicely, he'll probably allow for some other 3.5 things, but otherwise try and stick with mostly Pathfinder materials (Core, APG, UM, UC, and Bestiary 1-3).

I'm only working with 5th level, and 10500g, so cost efficiency is a must.

Stats I'm working with are 10, 14, 15, 16, 18, 18.

Anything else of importance I left out? Ask and I'll check back during break.

legomaster00156

2012-01-23, 03:26 PM

I recommend that you do not give in. This will make the entire party angry.

sparkyinbozo

2012-01-23, 03:40 PM

I'm with Legomaster, it sounds like this would not be the best solution to an interpersonal problem with the players.

That being said, I love these sorts of experiments, so we'll probably need to know who/what exactly you're making this character to take out.

Keneth

2012-01-23, 03:55 PM

I think players are like kids (and some of them indeed are) and so it's only right that you teach them how every action bears a consequence. It sounds like the campaign has gone off course anyway, so killing everyone off, then talking to the players about how such a style of gameplay doesn't agree with the GM/campaign or is generally counterproductive before they reroll new characters, sounds like a good idea. The GM could also try to fix the current situation but sometimes that's not really an option. :smallsmile:

CTrees

2012-01-23, 04:09 PM

I'm not sure this whole exercise is a good idea, but...

Quicklings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/quickling) with PC wealth-by-level are interesting. Also note that by the monster advancement rules section on adding class levels, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement) Quicklings are in the "special" role, so the first two class levels you add (of any class) only "count" as one. Perhaps assassin (and maybe Ability Focus) to abuse the death attack? No, it's not the best start of a build, but the ridiculous movement, invisibility, free poison use, and so forth will make is deliciously unfair feeling, if that's what you're *really* going for.

Douglas

2012-01-23, 04:11 PM

That's a bit low level for really getting a lot out of DMM (Persist). I have a different strategy to suggest instead.

Human
20 wisdom, 18 charisma
Cleric
2 flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)
Magical Lineage trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) (official standard from APG is that you get 2 traits free)
Pathfinder's Persistent Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic)
Chain Spell (3.5)
Easy Metamagic (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Easy_Metamagic) (Chain Spell) (3.5, dragon)
Divine Metamagic (Chain Spell)
Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend)

And, the centerpiece that makes this truly horrendous: Murderous Command (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/murderous-command)

Pre-buff with Owl's Wisdom and Eagle's Splendor, and you can spend 3 Channel uses plus one rod use and a 2nd level slot to cast Persistent Extended Chained Murderous Command. You can do this 3 times before you run out. The primary target has a save DC of 20 and everyone else has to beat 16. Anyone who does not succeed on that save twice spends two rounds doing his best to kill his nearest ally. Sit back and watch the slaughter. Bring popcorn.:smallcool:

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-23, 04:54 PM

A wandering crusader has been traveling in this area. He is said to be skilled, and his divine powers are said to be strong. Also, he's hunting you down.

Lawful good cleric of Iomedae or similar god/concept.

Good domain, perhaps with the Azata subdomain to get Fly instead of Magic Circle Against Evil. Perhaps use a Keen Falchion with Bless Weapon, but that'll cut deep into your money. Maybe a regular falchion.

Pour a lot of money into a Cloak of Resistance, as this party seems like the type to have a Fireball flinging wizard, and it'll increase your already good will and fortitude saves.

Think about using Divine Favor to boost your attack rolls, but only do that if the wizard puts up a Mage Armor. You can easily deal with the squishier members than use it.

Another possible route is just to use lots of Summon Monsters. Take Augment Summoning and put up a Summon Monster II or III to hold off the fighter and rogue while you go after the wizard (I recommend a celestial bird of some sort so it can avoid any other melee guys). Then, once the wizard is down, use another Summon Monster, and go after the rogue. Then use another, and go after any remaining enemies.

EDIT: for ability scores, 18 wisdom, 18+2 constitution, 16 strength, 15 charisma, and then you choose what you want for the other two.

JoeYounger

2012-01-23, 04:54 PM

human Ranger 5

Str 18
Dex 18 (20 from human)
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 10 (11 from 4th level ability point)
cha 14

This gives you FE#1 at +4 and FE#2 at +2, favored terrain, and an animal companion that you'll be using

For feats you should have

human: Point Blank shot
1: Precise shot
virtual: Rapid shot
3: deadly aim
5: weapon focus

If you get flaws pick up Dead eye to add your dex to dmg within 30 feet for an extra 20 dmg per round.

scroll of bow spirit (CL13) 1000 gp
scroll of gravity bow 25 gp
scroll of fly 375
+1 bane mighty (+4) composite longbow 8500gp
potion of cats grace 300

5 bab, 5 dex, 1 pbs, 1 enhancement, 2 bane, 4 FE, 2 cats grace, -2 deadly aim = 18 to hit

2d6, 1 enhancement, 2 bane, 2d6 bane, 4 fe, 1 pbs, +4 deadly aim = 4d6 + 12 base dmg

cast fly, cast gravity bow, fly 30 feet above the party when they're camping, cast bow spirit, drink cats grace, drop an entangle on them, then destroy them. with rapid shot and bow spirit you should be dropping 4 arrows per round, all hitting, and you should be able to kill a person a round with that. maybe more.

DoctorGlock

2012-01-23, 05:15 PM

If you get flaws pick up Dead eye to add your dex to dmg within 30 feet for an extra 20 dmg per round.

Dex bonus, +5, not +20

PF only?

Synthesist Summoner, make a large sized pounce monster, spam some grease and glitterdust from out of range then leap into the fray and claw them to ribbons

Cleric? PF campaign setting gives us the holy warrior cleric, d10 HD, full BAB, heavy armor proficiency, and proficiency in any one weapon. Either make a falchion of doom or a chain tripper. If you get 3.5 stuff, make the 5th level prestige paladin and get travel devotion, run about slicing faces off with the 3rd level paladin spell that makes your attacks touch attacks while power attacking for as much as you can (at 5th in PF i think that's -2 attack, +6 damage, assuming a +1 keen falchion I am seeing 2d4+10, other will be able to buff that)

JoeYounger

2012-01-23, 05:42 PM

Dex bonus, +5, not +20

+5 per arrow, 4 arrows is 20 dmg.

DoctorGlock

2012-01-23, 05:43 PM

+5 per arrow, 4 arrows is 20 dmg.

Ah, I read that as per shot, not per round

Coidzor

2012-01-23, 05:44 PM

They need to realize there are consequences for their actions? Ok, the DM needs to grow a spine and talk to them and explain to them that if they don't stop being disrespectful towards him, then they don't get to play anymore.

They continue to have an out of game problem with the DM that is expressed in game and refuse to work it out, then, bam, they don't have a game anymore.

The GM could also try to fix the current situation but sometimes that's not really an option. :smallsmile:

If fixing it isn't an option, why is the GM still running the game with them?

SamBurke

2012-01-23, 05:53 PM

I'm agreeing with Dr. Glock: Synthesist Summoner is an absolute BEAST in melee.

Recommendations: Go for a Kali style build, going large and getting as many arms as possible, all of which are using Large Greatswords. Take Improved Crit as a feat (That's 17-20 x2... pretty good, considering the number of swords and size of the beasty). I'd also buff Initiative if possible (there are some gooooood spells out there, get a scroll?). You'll also want Multiattack.

If you have a pair of extra arms (and, debatably, an extra mouth), you could *theoretically* cast spells and fight. If casting spells, remember that Haste is spell level 2 for Summoners. Other good debuffs are Grease/Glitterdust, which I would recommend spamming to start with (perhaps duel-wield wands?).

Race: Half-elf or Human. You can get +1 EP from Half-elf, and +5 HP For the Eidolon from Human. Depending on what you want, I'd lean towards Human (you need some number of feats).

Remember to buff your UMD if using wands/scrolls.

A possible trick, if you've got feats enough: Get Augmented Summons, then a scroll of Summon Eidolon. That's +4 Str/Con for the duration of his summoning. Pretty sweet.

Spells: Grease, Glitterdust, Haste, Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, Shield. The more of these you can cast pre-combat, the better. Buffs are important first, but battlefield control is also good. Look at the Pit line of spells, and think about them.

Check with the DM about any fav tricks they have, get a scroll to stop that.

Goal: Clean them all up before their turn begins. If you go first, can cast spells, and have a surprise round (so, standard action + full round), in addition to have a freakish number of arms and damage dealing capability, then you might kill them easily. The spells are so if you *don't* kill them on turn one, you just wait and kill them on turn two.

Hope that helps... but, always, check with that DM, tell him it *might* not be the best way to go about things. However, I understand that players are sometimes immature (as are DMs, of course), and so that may not be an available answer.

DoctorGlock

2012-01-23, 06:01 PM

Extra swords or use of tentacles? Ain't there feats for free grapples on attacks if you are large enough? That is very thematic with tentacle doom and you can spam alot of tentacles. I only ever played a summoner in a one shot as a player (large pouncer at 5th) and ran one as a villain once as a DM (huge tentacle grappler at 12th), so my experience is limited.

Ravens_cry

2012-01-23, 07:08 PM

I am going to second a big No to this.
As in, don't do this.
Yes, it hurts to see your baby used in ways you don't expect.
But that is the nature of the game.
If no plan survives contact with the enemy, no campaign setting survives even cursory proximity to the players.
Things change and flow organically and that is what happens when you have a medium that allows actual player choice, not that video game illusion.
If the DM can't handle this fact, I don't think the DM honestly gets what it means to be a good DM.
If they want to tell a story where they have complete control, they should write a book or something.

SpaceBadger

2012-01-23, 07:08 PM

So, one of my friends has asked me to create a party killer for his Pathfinder game. He wants me to absolutely destroy his group because they've gone and screwed the pooch and made the story undoable. Not to mention rape, pillaged, and crapped all over his own original campaign setting.

Now, he's out for blood, and has asked me to make them realize there are consequences for their actions.

As opposed to DM fiat death (rocks fall, you all die type thing), he's giving me the go ahead for something to completely wreck them.

This is a bad idea. I agree w your friend that they need to have consequences, but his "consequences" are childish and will lead to bad feelings all around - maybe directed at you, too, if your role becomes known.

If the players have crapped all over the campaign, the DM needs to tell them that the campaign is over, and if they want him to run another campaign for them, they need to make new characters, and here are the ground rules: no rape/pillage/crapping/whatever. Maybe they'll go along, maybe they'll decide to have somebody else DM, but that would be the mature way to handle it.

If he really feels a need to kill off the party, he should have the balls to just use "rocks fall" (or the old school "blue lightning bolts from above") and tell them why he is killing them - but I am not suggesting he kill them, the above response would be much better.

SpaceBadger

2012-01-23, 07:13 PM

I am going to second a big No to this.
As in, don't do this.

Agreed, See my post above.

Yes, it hurts to see your baby used in ways you don't expect.
But that is the nature of the game.
If no plan survives contact with the enemy, no campaign setting survives even cursory proximity to the players.
Things change and flow organically and that is what happens when you have a medium that allows actual player choice, not that video game illusion.
If the DM can't handle this fact, I don't think the DM honestly gets what it means to be a good DM.
If they want to tell a story where they have complete control, they should write a book or something.

Cannot agree with this. Players should have fun, but the DM puts in more prep time than any player, and should not be required to DM something that isn't fun for him, too. However, I think if there are things the DM definitely wants to have off-limits, he needs to specify ground rules up front, so if the players don't like them they can try to find someone else to DM.

My campaigns allow player choice, but there are limits. No evil characters, none of this rape/pillage stuff. I wouldn't go all "DM vs Party" on them and try to kill them off, just tell them I'm not DMing that kind of stuff and if they want to do that they need to do it in someone else's game.

Ravens_cry

2012-01-23, 07:19 PM

Cannot agree with this. Players should have fun, but the DM puts in more prep time than any player, and should not be required to DM something that isn't fun for him, too. However, I think if there are things the DM definitely wants to have off-limits, he needs to specify ground rules up front, so if the players don't like them they can try to find someone else to DM.

My campaigns allow player choice, but there are limits. No evil characters, none of this rape/pillage stuff. I wouldn't go all "DM vs Party" on them and try to kill them off, just tell them I'm not DMing that kind of stuff and if they want to do that they need to do it in someone else's game.
Oh, I agree it is the job of the DM to help set the tone of the campaign, what sources are allowed to layout the ground rules and house rules, for example, as you say, No Evil characters, no torture or rape.
But going on a petty revenge is not the best way to fix that.

Arbane

2012-01-23, 07:44 PM

All this will do is show them that they weren't vicious and munchkinesque _enough_.

A vastly better approach is for the DM to stand up and say "your characters are loathesome psychopaths, and I'm not playing with you any more."

Medic!

2012-01-23, 08:19 PM

The consequences or "ruining" a game or campaign are just that. It's ruined, and the game is over. If you actually follow through with killing off your table, the only outcome is that everyone will be very well versed in butthurt, and grudges will start cropping up and carrying over from game to game etc. It's just time for your DM to say "Ok, that's all the material I had prepared, campaign's over."

Consequences are for real life, game time is for fun. When it's not fun, it's game-over man, game over.

Slipperychicken

2012-01-23, 08:45 PM

Tag them with Dust of Sneezing and Coughing (choking? It should be on the SRD), for 5d4 rounds of no-save action-denial.

I don't agree with what your DM is trying to do. He needs to talk this out with the players. Killing everyone is not the solution here. Say "I have worked very hard on this campaign. You have ruined it, and in the process destroyed my hard work. As much fun as this is for you, it isn't fun for the DM whose worlds you ruin. Please, respect the campaigns I make, or find a DM who's willing to put up with this crap".

Ravens_cry

2012-01-23, 09:18 PM

Tag them with Dust of Sneezing and Coughing (choking? It should be on the SRD), for 5d4 rounds of no-save action-denial.

You know, assuming these people aren't already aware of this item, I don't think introducing the players to pretty much the most not-cursed cursed item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking) in the SRD is the best idea.

Rising Phoenix

2012-01-23, 10:27 PM

Another "Don't do this!" vote from me as well.

The players sound very immature and/or have been given the impression that they can do whatever they want.

My first approach would be to talk to them. If that doesn't work I'd simply do whatever they want me to do. If that still doesn't get the point across leave them.

If you think that they could handle it without being immature. I would get a powerful creature to make them do his bidding. In this case I'd choose a powerful fiend and a faustian pact. Show them how horrible hell is and that may get them back on track.

TheArsenal

2012-01-24, 03:14 AM

Im with the "Kill them" crowd. I HATE players who take raping for kicks. These type of people make me utterly SICK to the core.

Ravens_cry

2012-01-24, 04:19 AM

Im with the "Kill them" crowd. I HATE players who take raping for kicks. These type of people make me utterly SICK to the core.
Oh, I agree, they are immature little <expletives redacted/>, but I don't think killing them is the answer.
Or their characters.

Killer Angel

2012-01-24, 04:27 AM

Red_Dog

2012-01-24, 04:39 AM

Heh... as a person that loves "sandbox" style games, I am some what obligated to side with "kill them crowd". IMHO games should have things placed in them that lets DMs punish players for absurdly bad decisions. That being said, I would never "hide" those conditions. They should in fact be rather obvious so players won't feel sandbaged...

As an alternative response for a more streamlined game, default to this option =>
They need to realize there are consequences for their actions? Ok, the DM needs to grow a spine and talk to them and explain to them that if they don't stop being disrespectful towards him, then they don't get to play anymore.
*bolded for emphasis*
======================================>
Because of lack of PF knowledge at all however... I have to default on a story of "clever ghosts" that I have heard... I am not sure if this is mechanically possible, but abusing incorporeal subtype you could potential resolve a campaign in a scary scenario. It was said, there was rape and murder? Well this could produce a low level Ghost that in one session can pick them off one by one as an act of gruesome vengeance.
The trick being, staying in "objects" as much as possible. I am not sure if ghost can attack from under ground/from object, but catching players of guard one by one can drastically shift the scale...

P.S. The ranger Build that was presented earlier by JoeYounger, seems like a solid choice. Before he actually would need to fly, he could kill some off from cover and than finish up. Opening with full attack against flat-footed caster takes care of most issues. His motivation could range from simple "vengeance" to a much more clever "head hunter".

If DM hates "evil acts", what better way to punish evil by showing how pathetic they are in a face of true methodical evil that does it professionally and not for kicks? ^^ Lawful evil really would add a swift kicks to the unmentionables here ^^.

Just my few words I guess ^^

Keneth

2012-01-24, 05:55 AM

I am not sure if ghost can attack from under ground/from object For the record, incorporeal creatures can attack from within solid objects but they do so blindly (enemies have total concealment), although they can sense where the creatures are if they are within 5 feet of them.

NiteCyper

2012-01-24, 06:00 AM

Revenants are vengeance-driven undead too. In-game, direct consequences are the best option.

Ravens_cry

2012-01-24, 06:37 AM

Revenants are vengeance-driven undead too. In-game, direct consequences are the best option.
This I generally agree with, but an out of character discussion is also necessary here in my opinion, explaining that some actions are just not acceptable any more and that there will be in-game consequences to these kinds of actions.
Then, unleash the hounds. :smallamused:

Doorhandle

2012-01-24, 07:11 AM

For the record, incorporeal creatures can attack from within solid objects but they do so blindly (enemies have total concealment), although they can sense where the creatures are if they are within 5 feet of them.

Ghost with blindsense. Problem solved.

Psyren

2012-01-24, 01:18 PM

Ghost with blindsense. Problem solved.

Blindsense does not negate concealment. Furthermore, the ghost becomes vulnerable to attack (though has concealment itself) for the round after attacking from within the object.

Oh, I agree it is the job of the DM to help set the tone of the campaign, what sources are allowed to layout the ground rules and house rules, for example, as you say, No Evil characters, no torture or rape.
But going on a petty revenge is not the best way to fix that.

Agreed; the plan in this thread is bad juju.

CTrees

2012-01-24, 02:57 PM

Blindsense does not negate concealment. Furthermore, the ghost becomes vulnerable to attack (though has concealment itself) for the round after attacking from within the object.

Right, so go with a ghost with spring attack, ping-ponging between walls/rooms/floors/etc.

Psyren

2012-01-24, 03:40 PM

Right, so go with a ghost with spring attack, ping-ponging between walls/rooms/floors/etc.

Ready attack, whack as it comes out.

Coidzor

2012-01-24, 03:41 PM

Im with the "Kill them" crowd. I HATE players who take raping for kicks. These type of people make me utterly SICK to the core.

That's why you don't let them do so at all. You tell them "nope.avi.jpg.swf," if they try at all.

CTrees

2012-01-24, 03:50 PM

You know, assuming these people aren't already aware of this item, I don't think introducing the players to pretty much the most not-cursed cursed item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking) in the SRD is the best idea.

Um... so I just checked the PF SRD's section for cursed items (prep on the next phase of my campaign) and, um... Paizo didn't change the Dust of Sneezing and Choking at all. It's STILL 5d4rd stun, no save. Why...

SpaceBadger

2012-01-24, 04:07 PM

Oh, I agree, they are immature little <expletives redacted/>, but I don't think killing them is the answer.
Or their characters.

ROFL! Yes, killing players may be tempting, but is rarely an ideal solution.

ArcGygas

2012-01-24, 04:11 PM

Sorry for the delayed response, work kicked my butt and I crashed right afterwards.

So, let's start off with the "do or don't" part of the discussion. I do agree that this probably isn't the best way to go about "fixing" the game. The GM is relatively new to GMing (this is his third game I believe), so he hasn't found the proper ways and times to just say no (or screw you, bugger off, etc). He wants to encourage creativity and "The Rule of Cool." I told him to just say "Blitzkrieg!," flip the table, and say they all died by divine intervention, but he's absolutely set on having them killed. I asked why, and now can kind of understand.

The group has taken it way too far.

What started off as an all good group (Paladin, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Artificer [adapted for PF]) in a sandbox style game (because he wanted to see how the group clicked before giving them a proper adventure) has quickly become swayed by Evil and Chaos. The Cleric and Druid burned down City Hall first session, the Paladin executed the sheriff for being too lenient on lawbreakers, the Wizard leveled the Marketplace, and the Artificer did a whole lot of nothing of importance (for this session).

That was session one.

The GM told them, from the moment they wanted to do such a thing, there would be consequences. They all shrugged and said whatever. Now they're all Evil or Chaotic. The Paladin and Cleric lose their powers (having been followers of a LG deity, Iomedae I believe) and decide they want someone who'll let them "have more fun." So, deciding that the only direction they can go is down, they are now an Anti-Paladin and Cleric of The Beast (Rovagug).

Now that they were "morally free" to do whatever the hell they wanted, thus began the pillaging, looting, raping, etc. The Wizard and Druid decided that sounded way more fun than saving the world, and opted to join in. The Artificer spent yet another session tinkering away in their workshop.

GM was getting a little annoyed with them now. Okay, a lot annoyed. Decides that the city guard is going to smash them since it's about 100 soldiers to the 5 PCs. The guard manages to trap the party, save the Artificer. The Artificer decides now's a good time to do something and proceeds to level the guard with Wands of Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold, etc. Now everyone is Evil, and most assuredly Chaotic. Druid decides she's now a Blighter, since destroying the balance is so much more fun.

This goes on for another session with the GM trying to throw something that might actually scare them, without throwing, say, a Great Wyrm Red Dragon Flight (over-exaggeration, but you get the idea). After no such luck, the entire town is either dead, undead, enslaved, or burning. They decide the next town over will be quite fun as well.

That was where the last session ended before my friend came to me and asked me to destroy them. I told him that "rocks fall, you all die" was quite valid at this point, and to explain that he wasn't having fun with them wrecking the world. He said he would... right after I killed them all.

I've gone and told him I'm not having anything to do with the game besides creating the character (which I will just hand for him to play), and that this really should be the absolute last resort. Hopefully they talk it out, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Douglas

2012-01-24, 04:27 PM

That description just makes me think that forcing them to kill each other with Murderous Command (Chained, Extended, Persistent) would be especially appropriate. Just make sure the caster will either go first or survive at least one round of the best the party can do, preferably both.

Coidzor

2012-01-24, 05:42 PM

Yeah, he's a new GM and he's made some spectacularly bad decisions.

He needs to be coached on proper GMing and to not have anything more to do with those guys.

TheArsenal

2012-01-24, 05:52 PM

Arbane

2012-01-24, 05:58 PM

I would like to reiterate my opinion that the DM just needs to tell them "OH HELL NO", and take his dice and go home.

He's the DM. He doesn't NEED to 'beat' them in any way to make his point.

*sigh* Having said that, how about siccing a division of the local army on them, followed up by another group of adventurers once the artificer's low on blastiness?

SamBurke

2012-01-24, 06:01 PM

I don't even understand these types of people. Their just utterly SICK to the core. THIS is fun to them? Because I do run over people in GTA but I do that because their mindless AI constructs put there to be run over.

DD is about BECOMING characters. And they want to do THIS type of crap. I mean murder...OK....I guess. But RAPE? What kind of utterly sick person says "LOL RAPE!"

Id send a friggin angel to murder them all. Hell, I would probably kick all those people out of my house.

:smallfurious:

I can't say how much I agree with this.

These guys sit in a town, and decide to pillage it. For fun.

Yeah, these guys are NPCs, but... I'd get out of that group fast. I can take a paladin-who-falls story, that's interesting enough. But a lulzrape "plot" isn't plot: that's primitive, animalistic instinct. That's the sort of stuff video games get attacked for "having..." Because it's not only anti-societal, anti-social, and disturbing on so many levels, but... I don't think there *needs* to be a but.

With me, I totally condone this now. The GM is giving them justice, in character and out. He's warned them, foreshadowed for them what will happen... someone who does stuff like this will get stomped by celestials or higher powers.

In other news, why the flip did he let an ALL TIER ONE campaign sit on him. That.. is a phenomenally bad idea. An all T2 game is fantastically hard (They end CR+5 with ease, though not in the first turn) to DM and plan for...

So, I'm gonna say, go DM. Clean house on those guys, tell them their wrongs, give them a second chance. If it ever happens again, go to your local gaming shop and inquire for a new group.

MukkTB

2012-01-24, 06:21 PM

Its the DM's job to throw angry NPCs at them. If the campaign world is really designed so no NPC's are there to stop them its his fault. Its not your job to kill them. Its a bad idea for you to kill them. Let the DM handle his own dirty work.

Also its totally legit for the party to play evil. The DM should rip the powers from a paladin that rapes and pillages, but other than providing consequences for their actions its not really his job to engineer total party wipes just because its an evil party.

Edit - Where is the King? Whats the wizard's guild doing? What about the major religions? The DM could legitimately say that in response to the destruction of a town the King with a retinue of knights, a group of wizards, and the backing the of the church has come to kill the offenders.

Coidzor

2012-01-24, 06:27 PM

Also its totally legit for the party to play evil.

Play evil, sure, but that's something that should be agreed upon before the game begins. And certainly doesn't cover being a creepy and alltogether unsavory and undesirable person and bringing up rape in game without getting it OK'd by the group and expecting the GM and everyone else to be completely OK with this, or, y'know, doing it for no other reason than to IRL troll the other people at the table.

Helldog

2012-01-24, 06:32 PM

MukkTB

2012-01-24, 06:33 PM

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-24, 06:35 PM

This sounds like a job for an adventuring party! You know, the good kind. Get four highly optimized characters and have them fight them.

I recommend a melee cleric, a druid, wizard, or other cleric for a summoning build, put a real paladin in the mix (why WOULDN'T a paladin go after them?), then throw in a ranger.

Ravellion

2012-01-24, 06:53 PM

If telling the group off for playing in a highly disagreeable manner is off the table, using a level balanced encounter to kill them seems a very strange method of resolution.

Humiliation is in order.

For PCs that means one thing: losing control of their characters. That village they all but destroyed? That was the "farm" of a local vampire. Who will now proceed to dominate and kill the party members... one... by... one... Hit them in their sleep or when they are separated.

Killing, raising and having a Tsukiko like character do nasty things with their undead former characters is optional but recommended. This way, you'd probably get in a big fight (IRL), and you would never have to to see these sick ****s ever again.

Btw, hi, these board are nice, and, yay! first post :smallwink:

Coidzor

2012-01-24, 06:58 PM

The DM shouldn't engineer an artificial total party wipe because he doesn't want to play anymore. If that is the case he should quit. On the other hand I could legitimately see very serious consequences for their actions. Wiping out a village isn't a subtle action. Everyone is gonna be pissed. High level wizards, chief priests, Kings and lords.

Indeed, this has been intimated a whole lot. The DM is some combination of inexperienced and/or angry enough at the players to not care that it's the wrong decision.

Me. I'd have no problem playing in such a game. RPG is about doing stuff you can't or wouldn't do in real life. Also, it's not real.

Please refer to the ad nauseum line of threads that have covered the numerous reasons above and beyond what you've just mentioned that would cause such to at least be heavily reconsidered.

Not the least of which is, even in this case, the DM not wanting to deal with it, as it's even worse than roleplaying out consensual sex in front of the rest of the group. Or anyone in the house/library/student lounge center that could possibly overhear it and the negative repercussions from that.

Helldog

2012-01-24, 07:06 PM

Please refer to the ad nauseum line of threads that have covered the numerous reasons above and beyond what you've just mentioned that would cause such to at least be heavily reconsidered.
What does it have to do with my post?

Coidzor

2012-01-24, 08:56 PM

What does it have to do with my post?

The bit where you were being an apologist for rape in games and bringing that discussion into this thread when it's already been hashed out.

MukkTB

2012-01-24, 08:58 PM

Hmm. there are some things that are inappropriate to roleplay. I have no desire to roleplay sexual interaction. At least not with another overweight male trying to DM. DM of the Rings style "I do it with her" is as far as I've gone.

Some other people may be OK with it. As long as the whole group is fine with it, and anyone who would be listening is fine with it it is OK. And there's a world of difference between simply stating that rape happens and describing the details.

Obviously the DM isn't comfortable with rape. So party foul.

Edit - If the players agree to play an erotic sex adventure with explicit sex beforehand its fine.

Its not fine if it wasn't agreed to beforehand and it makes people uncomfortable.

Kane0

2012-01-24, 09:25 PM

How about instead of killing the characters off, get your mate (the DM) to make the characters reroll new characters to hunt down their old ones (now evil and malicious villains).

Rubik

2012-01-24, 09:38 PM

I agree that just finding another group is in order, but that's been said and done.

I suggest a mass horde of both corporeal (bodies) and incorporeal (souls) undead to swarm them. All their victims come back for revenge.

Do note that I don't mean zombies and skeletons. I mean an all-out wightocalypse, with allips as well, and all of them are focused on destroying their destroyers. Every person they've killed results in two powerful undead, and make sure they can see them coming. Make it creepy, and try to instill dread.

Not as ironic as having the party kill each other, but direct vengeance is more fitting, IMO.

Helldog

2012-01-24, 10:17 PM

The bit where you were being an apologist for rape in games and bringing that discussion into this thread when it's already been hashed out.
So you're saying that I can't be okay with rape in a game, because my reasons are not good enough and I'm wrong and you're right? :smallconfused:

Infernalbargain

2012-01-24, 10:31 PM

Mowing down a low level party? One simple spell off a build can do that easily, with minimal cheese required.

Human Oracle
Mystery: Heavens
Curse: Deaf
Traits: Magical Lineage (Color Spray)
Feats: Spell Focus Illusion, Greater Spell Focus Illusion, Still Spell, Improved Initiative.
Items: Rod of Persisent Spell (lesser), Scythe (or other x4 weapon)
Revelation: Awesome Display.
Congrats, they are now affected with color spray as though they had -1 HD, AKA, they are beaten unless they make the save twice. I chose Still Spell and Deaf curse so that you can completely get the surprise round on them and improved init so that you can likely get two shots at it before they get a turn. So with persistent spell rod, they have to make all 4 saves at DC 18 or be Coup De Gras'd.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-24, 11:00 PM

So you're saying that I can't be okay with rape in a game, because my reasons are not good enough and I'm wrong and you're right? :smallconfused:

"It's not real" isn't an excuse for rape. Especially since it's not just a game, it's something with entire worlds, where you create an entire character to fit into that world, and you commit hours to a single campaign that goes on for years. Nobody is willing to commit time to DMing a game where players sit down in a tavern and then decide to burn it to the ground. Chaotic evil is fine, chaotic stupid evil is never fine.

Helldog

2012-01-24, 11:34 PM

"It's not real" isn't an excuse for rape.
It shouldn't be an excuse for murder and looting stuff from your victims either, but yet it is.

What can I say. I'm a sick bastard because I can differentiate between reality and a game. :smallannoyed:

/offtopic

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-24, 11:41 PM

It shouldn't be an excuse for murder and looting stuff from your victims either, but yet it is.

What can I say. I'm a sick bastard because I can differentiate between reality and a game. :smallannoyed:

/offtopic

A game you devote hours of time to? You don't practice chess for weeks, win a local and regional tournament, then put up with someone cheating in the nationals because it's "just a game".

As for the murder? You can play in a shallow world with black and white morality and hordes of faceless mooks, but in the end, that's not very fulfilling and you just ended up wasting time.

Besides, this is assuming those hordes are made up entirely of demons, devils, or other evil outsiders.

Coidzor

2012-01-24, 11:42 PM

So you're saying that I can't be okay with rape in a game, because my reasons are not good enough and I'm wrong and you're right? :smallconfused:

I was saying that your acting as an apologist for rape in games as completely OK without qualifiers caused me to recommend that you review those threads where the issue has been fully discussed or as close to fully discussed as can be rather than necessitate repeating those threads in this one.

If we want to make this about what my personal beliefs are, suffice to say, I disagree with the gungho, permissive, and dismissive nature of your stance and feel you should take in more perspectives and discourse on the subject before reconsidering your stance, but I am not particularly eager to discuss the matter at length, especially in light of how verbose such discourse has to be, almost by necessity.

What can I say. I'm a sick bastard because I can differentiate between reality and a game. :smallannoyed:

Now that's just a problematic statement right there.

Suffice to say, you're either missing or deliberately disregarding a good many reasons that are more complicated than the cut-and-dried argument that you're mischaracterizing it to be.

Helldog

2012-01-25, 12:00 AM

Suffice to say, you're either missing or deliberately disregarding a good many reasons that are more complicated than the cut-and-dried argument that you're mischaracterizing it to be.
No. I know the reasons and I've seen some flamewars about rape in games. I just DON'T CARE. It's my business what I'm doing in my games. :smallsigh:

A game you devote hours of time to?
What does that have to do with anything? :smallconfused:

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-25, 12:12 AM

What does that have to do with anything? :smallconfused:

See my chess example. Just replace chess with D&D, and practice with DMing.

As a side note, the paladin should lawful evil.

Helldog

2012-01-25, 12:14 AM

See my chess example. Just replace chess with D&D, and practice with DMing.
Nah, I still don't get it. How does rape in a game waste my or the DMs time? If there's rape, I should assume that I and the DM knew what we where getting into, that it's agreed upon by the whole group. So if everyone agreed and knew what to expect... how is the time wasted?

Coidzor

2012-01-25, 01:16 AM

Nah, I still don't get it. How does rape in a game waste my or the DMs time? If there's rape, I should assume that I and the DM knew what we where getting into, that it's agreed upon by the whole group. So if everyone agreed and knew what to expect... how is the time wasted?

Well, there's part of the miscommunication inherent to bringing up approval of the subject and not qualifying it. You didn't actually say that to start with.

As you've said that you've read threads that have dealt with it in more depth, I'm sure you can understand the baggage that unqualified statements take on in this kind of context.

Helldog

2012-01-25, 01:30 AM

Well, there's part of the miscommunication inherent to bringing up approval of the subject and not qualifying it. You didn't actually say that to start with.
But I didn't say that I'm bringing up rape in random games. That's on you. I clearly said "I'd have no problem playing in such a game".

TheArsenal

2012-01-25, 02:17 AM

And its more about what it says about you.

DD is for doing something you cannot do in real life. Create a kingdom, fight demons, create a clone of yourself and have the clone dispose your tyrannical rule.

Or you tell a good story.

either way the intent is to have fun.

But what your essentially saying is that you get "fun" from doing utterly despicable things, and not for story reasons but because its fun.

Do you think that raping people in story for no reason other then the lols is fun?

Im sure thats not what you meant.

Helldog

2012-01-25, 02:32 AM

Do you think that raping people in story for no reason other then the lols is fun?

Im sure thats not what you meant.
Actually, I do and I did. If the premise of the game is to be EVULZ, I'll gladly rape, pillage and murder, just for the lulz. And do you know why?

Coidzor

2012-01-25, 02:37 AM

But I didn't say that I'm bringing up rape in random games. That's on you. I clearly said "I'd have no problem playing in such a game".

Considering that the context at the time in general was the game the OP has been talking about where they sprung this on the DM and the context of the post you responded to was "LOLrape" as a spontaneous decision, I'd have to say that it's much more unreasonable of you to expect us to perfectly divine your meaning and then blame me when, if you wanted to communicate a different thought than that, you needed additional words to effect such and actually establish a new context.

Helldog

2012-01-25, 02:42 AM

I don't assume the worst in people, but that's just me.

Red_Dog

2012-01-25, 02:45 AM

=>ArcGygas

in a sandbox style game

I am surly not going to tell you or your friend what to do, but...

Sandbox games are ORDERS of MAGNITUDE harder on a DM. I can see why your friend may have put dozens of hours into a game, and now it is, in his mind, screwed. But... he is a DM, his number one job is keep a cool head = ]

Again I would to resolve this like grown people and talk it out OR shut down the game OR keep going after a TPK.

If DM really wants to run the game, but doesn't have any other players available [sometimes it happens, after all D&D is not a national sport = ) ], TPK is always an option. A clever TPK, establishes DM's authority. It shows that he is smart & capable of creating a world that can defend itself.

Frankly I am surprised that town guards did not shoot them on sight. I mean that is 100% adequate response. A properly stated ranged NPC that comes in bulk[1-2 squads] & has the first volley will usually squash a Party.
If it is a sandbox, don't think "is this CR appropriate?".
Think => "is this a logical consequence in my world?". If massacre and rape does not warrant "Kill on Sight" status than it is a campaign design question.

*Edit*: I guess a biggest advise I can give is to remember that =>
*In a true Sandbox, Plot Armor for both PCs & NPCs does not Exist*

To people partaking in what is a boarder-line moral debate=>
I think everyone can agree to disagree and just leave moral issues at the door. Everyone has them, but we are discussing a technical or sociological issue. I am no mod of course ^^, but I would just like help steer the discussion from VERY unsafe grounds ^^

TheArsenal

2012-01-25, 02:46 AM

Actually, I do and I did. If the premise of the game is to be EVULZ, I'll gladly rape, pillage and murder, just for the lulz. And do you know why?

Because its just a game?

So you ENJOY rape? You find it LOL worthy? In ANY context?

Alright then. :smallfrown:

Helldog

2012-01-25, 03:01 AM

Because its just a game?
Yes. And because I can.

So you ENJOY rape? You find it LOL worthy? In ANY context?
That's not what I said.

Alright then.
Nobody's perfect.

Killer Angel

2012-01-25, 03:38 AM

If there's rape, I should assume that I and the DM knew what we where getting into, that it's agreed upon by the whole group. So if everyone agreed and knew what to expect... how is the time wasted?

In this specific debate, the DM didn't know it and certainly didn't agreed upon it.

Helldog

2012-01-25, 05:24 AM

In this specific debate, the DM didn't know it and certainly didn't agreed upon it.
I was talking about myself.

Killer Angel

2012-01-25, 05:30 AM

I was talking about myself.

It goes on personal tastes, but I suppose that if all the group and the DM agreed on a pillage/murder/rape game, it should be all right.
But at that point, I suggest to leave home D&D manuals, and use FATAL. :smallamused:

elpollo

2012-01-25, 06:53 AM

Because its just a game?

So you ENJOY rape? You find it LOL worthy? In ANY context?

Alright then. :smallfrown:

What? I don't enjoy or condone killing people, so I can never play the vast majority of video games or participate in D&D? Joking about something is not condoning or validating it. If it's a topic you don't wish to discuss that's fine - I'd rather not have it in most of my games too - but claiming that making such a joke somehow makes someone a bad person is... well, it's wrong.

That's the sort of stuff video games get attacked for "having..." Because it's not only anti-societal, anti-social, and disturbing on so many levels, but... I don't think there *needs* to be a but.

Oh yes, so because old fearmongering politicians don't like stuff being in what they see as "toys for children" we shouldn't ever discuss it. That's why gamers never make jokes about killing people or sleeping with aliens, heaven forbid.

The only reason video games don't get away with that stuff is because most people don't try, and those that do stop backing the idea when the media jumps on it. It's not seen as a proper artistic medium because a good deal of what it churns out isn't tackling any real issues (the Russians are invading? Again?!?), and most games with any real depth or artistic integrity fly so low under the radar they might as well be walking, or get lauded for their gameplay whilst the ideas behind get ignored. Video games should be able to cover the same topics as any othe medium.

There have been films, episodes of TV series, books, paintings, photographs, plays, songs, radio shows , and pretty much everything else we as a race create, about rape. Much like murder, kidnapping, slavery, drug abuse, abusive relationships, and a myriad of other things that humans do, it can be used evocatively, and can make an incredibly successful and powerful art piece. In a lot of cases such subject matter is used immaturely or incorrectly - these are cases to be condemned - but that doesn't mean it can't be done well, or that we should never try.

ExemplarofAvg

2012-01-25, 02:03 PM

Tucker's Kobolds, for when you just want your party to die. http://stevencreech.com/images/posters/Tuckers_Kobolds.jpg Honestly, scariest crap ever. Your party needs to be VERY (unrealistically) prepared for this.

TheArsenal

2012-01-25, 02:12 PM

Thing is, no art form ever created was good if it picked rape- for the LOLZ. I have no idea why rape would be LOL worthy.

Coidzor

2012-01-25, 03:11 PM

Hence why saying what we mean and meaning what we say is good as while it has its flaws and potential for miscommunication, it's a fair sight better than relying on people to glean what we mean when the context and tone and lack of qualifiers paint a very different picture.

ArcGygas

2012-01-25, 03:38 PM

Before this gets too much further off the tracks, the party met its doom when the Persisted Chained Extended Murderous Command was issued. Twice. Party was wiped in a few rounds, save for the Paladin who was left standing and blinking in the red, only to be put down by a swarm of Lantern Archons.

Feelings were hurt, the Paladin and Cleric's players left with many foul words, and the others apologized profusely, not realizing they had been ruining the GM's fun.

They rolled up new characters and are now playing the RHoD (Red Hand of Doom). I do believe they should be relatively fine as the trouble players were the Paladin and Cleric, whom I've heard have a rather... nasty reputation around here in the gaming community.