[PF] Synthesist Summoner

[CreganTur]

I was looking at the alternate builds for Summoner and came across the Synthesist and it just looks too good to be true, so I wanted to check and make sure I understand it correctly.

From what I understand I build my Eidolon as normal, except that my mental attributes take the place of his. I'm basically wearing the Eidolon like a suit of armor, except that its hit points are treated as temporary hit points for me and I get to use all of its natural attacks and evolutions as my own actions. This sounds pretty awesome!

And, since I get so many summons per day, I'd be taking Spell Focus(Conjuration) and Augment Summoning.

[Wagadodo]

Just remember if you do use your summons specials you will lose that special armor that you are wearing. You can only have one out at a time.

[stack]

Make sure you work out with your DM how all the details work. There is some debate as the section has been found wanting.

Specifically: does your armor count (RAW, probably yes, RAI i can't imagine it should)?

There are others and none are insurmountable, but think about them beforehand and be on the same page.

[CreganTur]

Another related question: I've taken augment summoning (+4 STR +2 CON to summoned creatures). Does this effect the Eidolon? I wouldn't think so, but I don't see anything that says it doesn't.

Just need some clarification.

[Krazzman]

I as DM would say it does. But somewhere I have read that the normal Ritual to summon your Eidolon is not a Summoning spell affected by Augment Summoning.

But can't recollect who said that. At least I would allow it on the premise of your Eidolon being in another place, and your conjuring ritual summons it to your world.

[vegetalss4]

Another related question: I've taken augment summoning (+4 STR +2 CON to summoned creatures). Does this effect the Eidolon? I wouldn't think so, but I don't see anything that says it doesn't.

Just need some clarification.

It doesn't by raw, however there is a feat in ultimate magic (I think) which does the same for the Eidolon, it only works for 10 minutes after you called it through, so you will have to resummon it a lot for it to work.

[grarrrg]

Another related question: I've taken augment summoning (+4 STR +2 CON to summoned creatures). Does this effect the Eidolon? I wouldn't think so, but I don't see anything that says it doesn't.

Just need some clarification.

I'd rule against, UNLESS you used the spell "Summon Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-eidolon)".
Otherwise it's overpowered. Would you allow a Character to take 1 feat to gain +4 Str/Con all day? The Eidolon is basically a Character.

[CreganTur]

I don't se a feat in Ultimate Magic that allows Augment Summoning to work. I'll just talk to the DM about it.

Now I have a question about attacks. First, here are my Eidolon's basics:

Quadraped form:
Free Evolutions: Bite, Limbs (legs), Limbs(legs)

Evolutions:
Grab (bite)
Rake (adds claws to back legs)
Bite (increases damage)
Improved Natural Armor
Pounce
Claws (adds claws to front legs)

BAB: +4
Attack Bonus: +6 (haven't finished optimizing this yet)

Technically everything I have (bite, claws, rake) all state that they are primary attacks. Does this mean that with a full attack action all of the attacks would use the +6 attack bonus, or would there be degredation of the attack bonus for the itteratives?

On a pounce, would it look like this:
claw +6 attack
claw +6 attack
bite +6 attack
grapple check
Rake +6 attack (if successful)

or like this (with Multiattack feat):
claw +6 attack
claw +4 attack
bite +4 attack
grapple check
rake +4 attack (if successful)

[stack]

I'd rule against, UNLESS you used the spell "Summon Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-eidolon)".
Otherwise it's overpowered. Would you allow a Character to take 1 feat to gain +4 Str/Con all day? The Eidolon is basically a Character.

I believe this is correct. If you use the spell, you get the bonuses, but not for the ritual.

[grarrrg]

Technically everything I have (bite, claws, rake) all state that they are primary attacks. Does this mean that with a full attack action all of the attacks would use the +6 attack bonus, or would there be degredation of the attack bonus for the itteratives?

On a pounce, would it look like this:
claw +6 attack
claw +6 attack
bite +6 attack
grapple check
Rake +6 attack (if successful)

Obligatory link to Natural Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks) rules.

First off, Natural Weapons do not (typically) use Iterative attack rules. They only care about highest Bab.

As long as an attack is listed as "Primary" it can be made at full Bab.
If an attack is listed as "Secondary" it can be made at Bab -5.
BUT if you also attack with a 'manufactured' weapon, then ALL natural attacks are treated as Secondaries.
IF a creature possesses only 1 type of natural attack, and they are all Secondary attacks, then they may be treated as Primary attacks (until the creature either gains a primary attack, or uses a Manufactured weapon).

The Multiattack feat reduces all Secondary attack penalties to -2.
Two-Weapon Fighting (and Multi-Weapon Fighting) ONLY apply to Manufactured weapon usage.


One possibility is to start with a Biped Eidolon and REPLACE the Claws with Pincers (still costs 1 point). This changes them to a Secondary that does 1d6 damage, BUT no you only have 1-type of attack, so it becomes a Primary that does 1d6 damage! Add Improved damage (pincers) more arms>more Pincers, etc....

[Paul H]

Hi

There is the issue about casting spells with somantic components if you don't have hands - which is why all mine are Bipeds.

You can wear armour as normal, but you can't benefit from any bonuses from it, armour or otherwise, until the Eidolon is dismissed. (It's a good backup if your Eidolon is dismissed, however).

If your Eidolon is dismissed, you've still got all those Summons' spells as standard action. If you've taken the SF Conjuration/Augment Summoning you can resummon Eidolon (Summon Eidolon spell) as Full rnd action even nastier! (Additional +4 STr/Con).

Only way to heal your Eidolon is the Rejuvenate Eidolon series of spells, or transfer HP from yourself as immediate action if the Eidolon is reduced to 0HP.

Eidolon uses your weapon profs, so can use simple & natural weapons, but requires 4 evolution points to use martial ones. (Wpn Prof Simple, Wpn Prof Martial, each 2 pts). (You can take Heirloom Wpn though)

Your Eidolon must be at least as big as you are.

There is a ruling that you use your (modified con) for your & Eidolon's HP, but Toughness feat only affects YOU.

All stat penalties from spells etc apply to the Eidolon, Mental stat penalties to you.

My PFS Synthesist 2 is party tank, AC17 (21 c/w Mage Armour), 35 HP, M/C Gt sword attack +6, Dam 2D6+4.
(Screwed up starting stats, so can't take Pwr Attack until lvl 5) :(

Hoped that helped
Paul H
PS Synthesist is often good lvl dip to increase HP, AC, stats etc

[stack]

There is debate about some of these points, but I generally concur. I for one would not have casting hindered by lack of hands, saying that the summoner moves his hands inside the eidolon, so long as it has a set of limbs that are not holding items. I would let serpentine without limbs cast normally, they are a weak form anyway.

[CreganTur]

I just saw in the rules for synthesist... well, really it was buried in the text where it was easy to miss- that going this route means your eidolon doesn't get any feats or skills of its own. This means I can't get any of the monster specific feats that my eidolon qualifies for. This doesn't make any sense to me.

Also, the description says: "The synthesist directs all of the eidolon's actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature."

Does directing its actions mean that it takes up my actions for it to move and attack, or does it move and attack on its own and I could cast a spell while inside of it during the same turn?

I guess what I'm really asking is if synthesist is really as good as it seems, or if it's better to go standard summoner so I can take my own actions to buff/save or screwed while the eidolon is independently eating people.

[Daftendirekt]

Synthesist basically turns your eidolon into a badass suit of armor. Yes, you use your actions to command it, because you're essentially wearing it.

[grarrrg]

that going this route means your eidolon doesn't get any feats or skills of its own. This means I can't get any of the monster specific feats that my eidolon qualifies for. This doesn't make any sense to me.

Does directing its actions mean that it takes up my actions for it to move and attack, or does it move and attack on its own and I could cast a spell while inside of it during the same turn?

I guess what I'm really asking is if synthesist is really as good as it seems, or if it's better to go standard summoner so I can take my own actions to buff/save or screwed while the eidolon is independently eating people.

Qualifying for Monster feats is currently up to your DM.
IF he let's you take them, keep in mind they will "turn off" when you're in 'normal' mode.

The actions are the downside of the Synthesist.

Synthesist Pros:
You are a Gish in a can, Casting and Beatstick rolled into one.
You can (mostly) dump your Physical stats (bare minimums to meet various Pre-Reqs on feats and so forth). Don't plan on taking any feats with a DEX requirement? You can dump Dex to 7 and be perfectly fine.
You can use the Skilled evolutions to pump your own skills.
Synthesist is MUCH more Multi-Class friendly BECAUSE you use your own Feats/Abilities.

Synthesist Cons:
Action economy. Standard Summoner can cast while his Eidolon fights. Synthesist must choose (baring certain spells).
You CANNOT use the Ability boost on your Base stats, ONLY your Eidolon's Physical stats can be boosted. (not necessarily a con, you couldn't do this anyway, but enough people think you can...)

[Stone Heart]

Qualifying for Monster feats is currently up to your DM.
IF he let's you take them, keep in mind they will "turn off" when you're in 'normal' mode.

The actions are the downside of the Synthesist.

Synthesist Pros:
You are a Gish in a can, Casting and Beatstick rolled into one.
You can (mostly) dump your Physical stats (bare minimums to meet various Pre-Reqs on feats and so forth). Don't plan on taking any feats with a DEX requirement? You can dump Dex to 7 and be perfectly fine.
You can use the Skilled evolutions to pump your own skills.
Synthesist is MUCH more Multi-Class friendly BECAUSE you use your own Feats/Abilities.

Synthesist Cons:
Action economy. Standard Summoner can cast while his Eidolon fights. Synthesist must choose (baring certain spells).
You CANNOT use the Ability boost on your Base stats, ONLY your Eidolon's Physical stats can be boosted. (not necessarily a con, you couldn't do this anyway, but enough people think you can...)

Actually on the paizo message boards I think I saw a ruling that as long as you just stayed awake in your eidolon form for more than 24 hours it qualifies as a "permanent boost" (much like wearing a belt of giants strength for more than 24 hours) and thus you qualify for the feat. It will deactivate whenever you are in human form, but it will reactivate whenever you have the eidolon up.

[Crasical]

Something that's always bugged me about summoners, the Greater Aspect ability.


At 18th level, a summoner can divert more of his eidolon’s evolutions to himself. This ability functions as the aspect ability, but up to 6 evolution points can be taken. Unlike the aspect ability, the eidolon loses 1 point from its evolution pool for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) diverted to the summoner.

A synthesist can transfer evolutions to himself, but which (if any) Function while the synethesist is fused to his eidolon? If I'm immune to lightning, is my fused eidolon too?

Furthermore, The Eidolon loses a point from it's pool for every 2 points given to the summoner. Is that a flat surcharge on top of the transfer, which also means that summoners who already had a 2-point evolution from the prior Aspect ability are suddenly paying an extra point, or is it saying that every point taken from the Eidolon's pool grants 2 points to the summoner?

[stack]

Each point taken gives two, which is great for synthesists if you are using skilled or mental stat boosting evolutions. The casting ones would also apply (blech), I suspect immunities would not. Any natural weapon ones are obviously useless when merged.

I love aspect for giving my master summoner flight though.

[CreganTur]

I think I'll be going straight summoner.The synthesist idea is awesome, but I really prefer the action economy of the standard build.

[grarrrg]

Each point taken gives two, which is great for synthesists if you are using skilled or mental stat boosting evolutions.

:smallsigh:

Aspect (Su)

At 10th level, a summoner can divert up to 2 points from his eidolon’s evolution pool to add evolutions to himself. He cannot select any evolution that the eidolon could not possess, and he must be able to meet the requirements as well. He cannot select the ability increase evolution through this ability.

You also can NOT use ability increase > Mental while in Eidolon-form.
The increases to mental scores STILL APPLY TO YOUR EIDOLON. As your Mental scores are NOT replaced, you gain NO BENEFIT.

[stack]

You know, I thought that might be the case and was too lazy to check. Serves me right.

[Chained Birds]

One of my favorite summoners is: Antipaladin 3/ Summoner (Synthesis) 17

Use the Frightful Presence Evolution and scare away both zombies and paladins alike. Though this is only for Evil guys. Like very evil guys! :smallamused:

[Mystify]

Synthesist Pros:
You are a Gish in a can, Casting and Beatstick rolled into one.
You can (mostly) dump your Physical stats (bare minimums to meet various Pre-Reqs on feats and so forth). Don't plan on taking any feats with a DEX requirement? You can dump Dex to 7 and be perfectly fine.
You can use the Skilled evolutions to pump your own skills.
Synthesist is MUCH more Multi-Class friendly BECAUSE you use your own Feats/Abilities.

Synthesist Cons:
Action economy. Standard Summoner can cast while his Eidolon fights. Synthesist must choose (baring certain spells).
You CANNOT use the Ability boost on your Base stats, ONLY your Eidolon's Physical stats can be boosted. (not necessarily a con, you couldn't do this anyway, but enough people think you can...)

I never saw the benefit.
Gish in a can: Why is being the eidolon better than commanding it? Is it really any better of a fighter with you inside? If its purely for flavor, then there needs to be something to make up for the mechanical drawbacks. The summoner doesn't care about physical stats anyways, the eidolon is doing his fighting. The skilled evolution may be a benefit,
the skilled evolution to pump your own skills does sound awesome, but kinda abusable. A skill monkey could dip into summoner, and pick up a +8 to 3 skills. Yeah, that sound reasonable...
Multiclass freindlyness is a perk, but since that seems to be the main perk, it means you need to be multiclassing to find an advantage.

And the loss of the action economy advantage is huge. a summoner normally functions as a gish, able to full attack with the eidolon, and still cast whatever buffs or spells they want to themselves. That is the holy grail of gish casting, perfect action economy. You give that up, and for what? The ability to multiclass?

[stack]

Not everyone wants to play an eidolon with a caster sidekick. Synthesist is less optimal, but it's cool. You do get a nice save bonus as well on top of a great HP pool. I'm sure there are other minor advantages, but you won't hit the power level of a standard summoner purely due to action economy concerns.

Then there is the master summoner. Good-bye action economy!

[Mystify]

Not everyone wants to play an eidolon with a caster sidekick. Synthesist is less optimal, but it's cool. You do get a nice save bonus as well on top of a great HP pool. I'm sure there are other minor advantages, but you won't hit the power level of a standard summoner purely due to action economy concerns.

Then there is the master summoner. Good-bye action economy!
Yes, its cool. But "coolness" shouldn't be a balancing factor. You should get something out of it, not just lose your action economy and feat advantage. A normal summoner ends up with the same hp pool. The edilon's hp are temps, so you can't even heal them, and when they are gone, your synthesize goes away.

And looking at it, the synthesis uses the eidolon's BaB. Meaning that you can't multiclass without killing your BaB, since it doesn't stack. So, that advantage does not even exist.

Literally, the best use of it I see is a skill monkey boost.

[DrDeth]

There have been about a zillion questions posted on the PF boards, and a good number of FAQ. This is not a well written Archetype and since if misread it can be super powerful, it’s pretty broken.

[Cieyrin]

And looking at it, the synthesis uses the eidolon's BaB. Meaning that you can't multiclass without killing your BaB, since it doesn't stack. So, that advantage does not even exist.

It's been noted (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obc) that multiclass Synthesists stack Eidolon BAB with non-Summoner levels, so that's not an issue.

[Mystify]

It's been noted (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obc) that multiclass Synthesists stack Eidolon BAB with non-Summoner levels, so that's not an issue.
Ok, but the synthesis still gives up alot for very little, if any, gain.

I designed a shapeshifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10957717#post10957717) class that was based on summoner. You are the eidilon, and there is no summoner. Basically, you can re-allocate the evolution points on the fly, giving you flexibility to make up for the action economy hit, spellcasting loss, and less raw power. This gives a lot of the same effect of the synthesis, but you actually get something worthwhile for what you give up.

[stack]

Regarding HP, a smart enemy will target the summoner, who will be squishy relative to the eidolon. So the inability to target separately does actually matter. Also you take less damage from AOE's.

Due to the way the system works you won't make-up for the action economy advantage because the action economy is so critical. Not all archetypes are perfectly balanced. That said, I think the synthesist compares very favorable to mundane melee. Even with the disadvantages you are a solidly tier 3, a beatstick with some nice spells on the side.

Your link doesn't seem to work, gives an error about not having permission to view the page.

[Mystify]

Regarding HP, a smart enemy will target the summoner, who will be squishy relative to the eidolon. So the inability to target separately does actually matter. Also you take less damage from AOE's.

Due to the way the system works you won't make-up for the action economy advantage because the action economy is so critical. Not all archetypes are perfectly balanced. That said, I think the synthesist compares very favorable to mundane melee. Even with the disadvantages you are a solidly tier 3, a beatstick with some nice spells on the side.

Your link doesn't seem to work, gives an error about not having permission to view the page.
Yes, it is hard to counteract losing the action economy, but it doesn't even try! Its a giant list of drawbacks, with the slight upshot of not being targetable separately. I'd think not being able to heal would, by itself, counteract the benefits of being merged.


I've fixed the link.

[stack]

I always thought the treating temporary HP thing for the merged eidolon was strange. I would let players heal it as normal for the eidolon myself, but RAW it is a pain. I think they should have done it differently, but as has been pointed out whenever the archetype is mentioned, it was all poorly thought out and confusingly written.

As for your class, I would play it given the chance. Extraordinary flexibility, no game-breaking power. Some DM's might baulk, but when compared to spells it isn't OP.

[Stone Heart]

You can heal the temporary HP of the synthesist eidolon with the Rejuvanate Eidolon spells.

Edit: Oh and of course there is the advantage in point buy. You can completely ignore the physical scores and even put yourself into venerable age category and then you are in eidolon form and its brought back up to reasonable levels.

[Mystify]

You can heal the temporary HP of the synthesist eidolon with the Rejuvanate Eidolon spells.

Edit: Oh and of course there is the advantage in point buy. You can completely ignore the physical scores and even put yourself into venerable age category and then you are in eidolon form and its brought back up to reasonable levels.
Sure, but if you have a cleric healing everyone, you are left out. And believe me, a well-built healer can be a powerful advantage in pathfinder.

and even using venerable, your con gets tanked, leaving you without much real hp. And since you can use those real hp to keep your eidolon form active, the real hitpoints are just as important for your durability as the temps. More-so, because at that point you can be healed normally again, and stick around when you aren't in eidilon form.

[grarrrg]

I never saw the benefit.
Gish in a can: Why is being the eidolon better than commanding it? Is it really any better of a fighter with you inside?.....Multiclass freindlyness is a perk, but since that seems to be the main perk, it means you need to be multiclassing to find an advantage.

Multiclassing is a HUGE perk.

The Eidolon has limited options when it comes to Feats and Special abilities.
It only gets 8 feats over 20 levels, whereas a normal character gets (at least) 10, with the option to Multiclass for more (Human gives +1 as well).
Yes an Eidolon can spend 2 Evo-points for Simple Proficiency, or 4 Evo-Points for Martial Prof. but a Synthesist can easily dip a level of Fighter for Martial prof. and save 2-or-3 Evo-points (4, minus the loss of Summoner level) AND get a bonus feat on the side.

As for special abilities, any of the following can be had for a 1 or 2 level dip in the right class, and none of them are replicated by Eidolon Evolutions.
Uncanny Dodge
[Bard/Cha stuff]
Wis-to-AC (you can't wear armor, and you have Point-buy to spare, so...)
Divine Grace
Smite Evil
Sneak Attack
Trapfinding
[Gunslinger/Firearm stuff]
Judgement(s) (various bonuses)
Cha-to-AC

Also, for as small an investment as _1_ level in a Full Bab class, you can have 16 Bab at level 20 (Eidolon form only)


And I know I keep bringing it up in every other post, but....
The Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413) takes the Synthesist and pushes it to its limit.

[Curious]

It only gets 8 feats over 20 levels-

Really? Where is this stated?

[Cieyrin]

Really? Where is this stated?

Eidolons don't get full hit dice for each advance of Summoner. At 20th, an Eidolon has 15 HD.

[Curious]

Eidolons don't get full hit dice for each advance of Summoner. At 20th, an Eidolon has 15 HD.

Ah, I shoulda known that. Thanks for the info. :smallsmile:

[Mystify]

Multiclassing is a HUGE perk.

The Eidolon has limited options when it comes to Feats and Special abilities.
It only gets 8 feats over 20 levels, whereas a normal character gets (at least) 10, with the option to Multiclass for more (Human gives +1 as well).
Yes an Eidolon can spend 2 Evo-points for Simple Proficiency, or 4 Evo-Points for Martial Prof. but a Synthesist can easily dip a level of Fighter for Martial prof. AND get a bonus feat on the side.

As for special abilities, any of the following can be had for a 1 or 2 level dip in the right class.
Uncanny Dodge
[Bard/Cha stuff]
Wis-to-AC (you can't wear armor, and you have Point-buy to spare, so...)
Divine Grace
Smite Evil
Sneak Attack
Trapfinding
[Gunslinger/Firearm stuff]
Judgement(s)
Cha-to-AC

Also, for as small an investment as _1_ level in a Full Bab class, you can have 16 Bab at level 20 (Eidolon form only)


And I know I keep bringing it up in every other post, but....
The Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413) takes the Synthesist and pushes it to its limit.
But now you have to take on all of the feats yourself. You don't have 10 feats for you and 8 for the eidolon. You just have your 10.
I'll admit that some of those are appealing, but a lot of them are level-scaled, and hence aren't that great for a dip. You are still fighting an uphill battle to reclaim equality with a basic summoner.

Though it would be rather effective in a gestalt, I'll admit.

[grarrrg]

But now you have to take on all of the feats yourself. You don't have 10 feats for you and 8 for the eidolon. You just have your 10.
I'll admit that some of those are appealing, but a lot of them are level-scaled, and hence aren't that great for a dip. You are still fighting an uphill battle to reclaim equality with a basic summoner.

Though it would be rather effective in a gestalt, I'll admit.

Yes you have to take all the feats yourself, but as pointed out, it's MUCH easier to take/get feats (or feat equivalents) yourself, whereas an Eidolon can NOT have more than 8 EVER.

Take the Gundolon, (again with the Gundolon, why won't he shut up about that thing) Synthesist is the only way to achieve it. A normal character can get all the feats, but has no way to get extra arms. An Eidolon can get TONS of arms, but is limited to 8 feats, some of which need to be spent on 'stupid' things (like, Exotic Weapon Prof-Pistol).

And most of the Abilities I listed scale (at least partially), some of them are more limited than others, but all can be useful. The only 'poor' choices are Judgement and Cha-to-AC. Judgement because the _size_ of the bonus is low, but it's only a Swift action, and you can change what the bonus is. Cha-to-AC is great if you have few levels, but (with enough Synthesist levels) your Eidolon-Dex will probably catch up to your Cha soon enough. Better to take a level of Monk instead for Wis-to-AC.

[Mystify]

Yes you have to take all the feats yourself, but as pointed out, it's MUCH easier to take/get feats (or feat equivalents) yourself, whereas an Eidolon can NOT have more than 8 EVER.

Take the Gundolon, (again with the Gundolon, why won't he shut up about that thing) Synthesist is the only way to achieve it. A normal character can get all the feats, but has no way to get extra arms. An Eidolon can get TONS of arms, but is limited to 8 feats, some of which need to be spent on 'stupid' things (like, Exotic Weapon Prof-Pistol).

And most of the Abilities I listed scale (at least partially), some of them are more limited than others, but all can be useful. The only 'poor' choices are Judgement and Cha-to-AC. Judgement because the _size_ of the bonus is low, but it's only a Swift action, and you can change what the bonus is. Cha-to-AC is great if you have few levels, but (with enough Synthesist levels) your Eidolon-Dex will probably catch up to your Cha soon enough. Better to take a level of Monk instead for Wis-to-AC.

Ok, it does have uses, and multiclassing can be effective. But a class should be able to stand on its own, not just as a tool in other builds.

[Mystify]

Multiclassing is a HUGE perk.

The Eidolon has limited options when it comes to Feats and Special abilities.
It only gets 8 feats over 20 levels, whereas a normal character gets (at least) 10, with the option to Multiclass for more (Human gives +1 as well).
Yes an Eidolon can spend 2 Evo-points for Simple Proficiency, or 4 Evo-Points for Martial Prof. but a Synthesist can easily dip a level of Fighter for Martial prof. AND get a bonus feat on the side.

As for special abilities, any of the following can be had for a 1 or 2 level dip in the right class.
Uncanny Dodge
[Bard/Cha stuff]
Wis-to-AC (you can't wear armor, and you have Point-buy to spare, so...)
Divine Grace
Smite Evil
Sneak Attack
Trapfinding
[Gunslinger/Firearm stuff]
Judgement(s)
Cha-to-AC

Also, for as small an investment as _1_ level in a Full Bab class, you can have 16 Bab at level 20 (Eidolon form only)


And I know I keep bringing it up in every other post, but....
The Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413) takes the Synthesist and pushes it to its limit.
But now you have to take on all of the feats yourself. You don't have 10 feats for you and 8 for the eidolon. You just have your 10.
I'll admit that some of those are appealing, but a lot of them are level-scaled, and hence aren't that great for a dip. You are still fighting an uphill battle to reclaim equality with a basic summoner.

Though it would be rather effective in a gestalt, I'll admit.

[grarrrg]

Ok, it does have uses, and multiclassing can be effective. But a class should be able to stand on its own, not just as a tool in other builds.

It is quite acceptable as a Gish on it's own. The (effectively) fewer feats are offset because the character takes fewer/no 'casting' feats, they focus mainly on the 'combat' feats.

Many Synthesists consider themselves more of a Barbarian w/UMD than a caster.


The other side of the coin is always 'flavor'.
It's just fun to look like a dragon.

[Mystify]

It is quite acceptable as a Gish on it's own. The (effectively) fewer feats are offset because the character takes fewer/no 'casting' feats, they focus mainly on the 'combat' feats.

Many Synthesists consider themselves more of a Barbarian w/UMD than a caster.


The other side of the coin is always 'flavor'.
It's just fun to look like a dragon.

But it is still a large step back from being a normal summoner, which is basically a gish with the action economy conveniently split up for them.You are losing your action economy advantage, you are losing the advantage of getting both combat and casting feats. We have two builds: summoner and synthesist, based on the exact same principles. There should be a clear balance between the two options. Some things given up, some things gained. But it does not gain anything by itself. A level 20 summoner and a level 20 synthesist are in completely different weight categories. Even though they are the same class.

And I get the flavor. The flavor is fine. But flavor is not a balancing mechanic.

[CreganTur]

Action economy is the main reason I decided to go pure summoner. There's nothing at all (besides flavor) to make up for losing an entire turn's worth of actions.

I decided I'm going for a pouncer style Eidolon.

Evolution Points: 8 +1(Extra Evolution Feat)
Quadraped base
Ability Increase Strength
Improved Natural Armor
Claws
Pounce
Rend

Eidolon Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Natural Attack (claws)

[Cieyrin]

Action economy is the main reason I decided to go pure summoner. There's nothing at all (besides flavor) to make up for losing an entire turn's worth of actions.

I decided I'm going for a pouncer style Eidolon.

Evolution Points: 8 +1(Extra Evolution Feat)
Quadraped base
Ability Increase Strength
Improved Natural Armor
Claws
Pounce
Rend

Eidolon Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Natural Attack (claws)

Half-Elf has a Favored Class bonus to gain an Evolution point every 4 levels of Summoner, if you want to get a few more over time.

[grarrrg]

Evolution Points: 8 +1(Extra Evolution Feat)
Quadraped base
Ability Increase Strength
Improved Natural Armor
Claws
Pounce
Rend

Eidolon Feats:
Power Attack
Improved Natural Attack (claws)

What exact level are you? (its either 4 or 5, depending on if the 8 is before/after Extra Evolution), and your listed evolutions only add up to 7 anyway.
Either way, you cannot take Rend yet (need level 6)
As a warning, once selected a Feat CANNOT be changed. So you better plan on making LOTS of claw attacks in the future. Whereas the Improved Damage Evolution does the same thing, and can be traded away the next time you level up.
Choose wisely.

You can also take the Bite evolution an extra time to get 1.5x Str on your Bites.
Adding the Reach evolution to your Bite would be useful as well. If you do this then the Combat Reflexes feat would be a good choice.

[CreganTur]

5th level

I hate how they hide the level requirements in the text like that. Forgot to write down energy attack.

Oh well, I'll just go back to my other build idea: (point cost in parantheses)

Improved Natural Armor (1)
Pounce (1)
Claws(1)
Energy Attack Acid (2)
Ability increase (2)

Now, I was thinking of taking Rake (2) for the last 2 points (it automatically adds claws), but without the grab evolution it's harder to pull off (but not impossible). I could take Fly (2) instead and always be able to charge, or I could get Reach (1) and Resist Fire(1).

I went Human because I need 4 feats:
Spell Focus(Conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Extra Evolution
Improved Initiative

[SamBurke]

Another related question: I've taken augment summoning (+4 STR +2 CON to summoned creatures). Does this effect the Eidolon? I wouldn't think so, but I don't see anything that says it doesn't.

Just need some clarification.

It would if you used the "Summon Eidolon" spell, but not otherwise.

[Cieyrin]

5th level

I hate how they hide the level requirements in the text like that. Forgot to write down energy attack.

Oh well, I'll just go back to my other build idea: (point cost in parantheses)

Improved Natural Armor (1)
Pounce (1)
Claws(1)
Energy Attack Acid (2)
Ability increase (2)

Now, I was thinking of taking Rake (2) for the last 2 points (it automatically adds claws), but without the grab evolution it's harder to pull off (but not impossible). I could take Fly (2) instead and always be able to charge, or I could get Reach (1) and Resist Fire(1).

I went Human because I need 4 feats:
Spell Focus(Conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Extra Evolution
Improved Initiative

I wouldn't do Resist Fire, leave that Lesser Evolution Surge so you can get Resist up for the element you're currently dealing with. Fly is always a nice plan, though Reach isn't a bad thing to have either.

[grarrrg]

I wouldn't do Resist Fire, leave that Lesser Evolution Surge so you can get Resist up for the element you're currently dealing with.

Agreed. Unless you're traveling through the Elemental Plane of Fire or something, save Resist [element] and/or Immunity [element] for Evolution Surge castings.



I went Human because I need 4 feats:
Spell Focus(Conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Extra Evolution
Improved Initiative

If you're taking Human just to have the Extra Evolution feat, then you're probably better off going Half-Elf (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf) and using your Favored Class bonus to get Evo-points instead.
As a Half-Elf, for every level of Summoner you can take either +1 HP, +1 Skill point, or +1/4 an Evo-point. At level 20, that's 5 extra Evo-points.

If you still think you need the HP, take Toughness as one of the feats you saved.