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krossbow
2012-01-24, 12:10 AM
While the image of Tsukiko being devoured alive by zombies is supposed to be horrific, i found it actually joyful.

The fact is, Tsukiko is a horrible, horrible individual. That i can tolerate. Xykon is horrible, Tarquin is horrible, Redcloak is horrible. But Tsukiko was something worse: SMUG. She was an incompetent little girl playing at a game that she didn't realize the gravity of. Every time she threatened the goblins or talked down to Redcloak, it just grated me more and more.



I found this comic to be CHEERFUL rather than horrible simple because of who it was aimed at, much like kubota's death. It really says something about a villain when they seem WORSE than complete monsters like Xykon.

Ridureyu
2012-01-24, 12:12 AM
It wasn't totally realistic. Usually people that smug die saying, "Se? I was right! I'm right and you're wrong! I'm absolutely right and you're w-"*splorch*

She wasn't in enough denial.

Squirrel_Token
2012-01-24, 12:29 AM
She wasn't in enough denial.

What, her cries of "You can fight back! Resist! I love you!" to a bunch of soulless wights doesn't strike you as denial? :smallbiggrin:

Ridureyu
2012-01-24, 12:35 AM
Not enough. She needed to sound triumphant that what she did absolutely worked, and Redcloak had lost, and keep going on like this to the end.

...it's how certain people who shall remain unnamed who I know argue. You can record them, play the recording back, and they will say, "I never said that."

Flame of Anor
2012-01-24, 12:49 AM
While the image of Tsukiko being devoured alive by zombies is supposed to be horrific, i found it actually joyful.

The fact is, Tsukiko is a horrible, horrible individual. That i can tolerate. Xykon is horrible, Tarquin is horrible, Redcloak is horrible. But Tsukiko was something worse: SMUG. She was an incompetent little girl playing at a game that she didn't realize the gravity of. Every time she threatened the goblins or talked down to Redcloak, it just grated me more and more.



I found this comic to be CHEERFUL rather than horrible simple because of who it was aimed at, much like kubota's death. It really says something about a villain when they seem WORSE than complete monsters like Xykon.


Though the actual act of devouring is (and should be) kind of creepy, I pretty much agree with all of what you say.

Rorrik
2012-01-25, 12:11 PM
I'm on that boat. I can almost sympathize with Red Cloak (not always, and less after his resistance crush), but Tsukiko was terrible, I couldn't stand her. I guess it's mostly that I can't stand people with that attitude in real life and I may have welcomed her death even if she had been good. Maybe similar to why I like Belkar best of the Order, just because of his attitude.:smallwink:

Gullintanni
2012-01-25, 12:25 PM
I'm not going to miss her. I'm happy she's gone. I've been waiting for this pretty much since she was introduced as a character. Her immediate betrayal of the Azurites (who I generally liked) soured me on her forever.

Kudos to Redcloak.

fergo
2012-01-25, 12:28 PM
I don't know. I was never a particularly big fan of Tsukiko, but I still thought of her in a semi-sympathetic way. Sure, she was evil with a capital E, and she was cruel and spiteful and stupid, but stupidity and petiness alone wasn't enough for me to actively hate her, especially when I would argue that Xykon is equally petty, but his massive ammounts of power means that his petiness is (perhaps oxymoronically*) on a much larger scale.

There's also the issue that, yes, she was messed up, and thinking about her undead fetish is... creepy :smalleek:. But much of her evil acts stemmed from this--she was such an arse to Redcloak because she wanted to get closer to Xykon (at least partially). And her final words, if anything, highlight that this is a weakness or innocence of hers, instead of her just being evil.

Her last words suggested that she was coming to realise the fact that something that had made her happy, gave her hope, let her fit in (even if only amongst monstrosities of her own making) was not true. And that's more tragic than anything else. In my opinion.

Is that even a word?

Tass
2012-01-25, 12:40 PM
While the image of Tsukiko being devoured alive by zombies is supposed to be horrific, i found it actually joyful.

Just to pick nits: She was devoured by wights not zombies, and she was not devoured alive, she was drained to death first.

King of Nowhere
2012-01-25, 12:42 PM
What, her cries of "You can fight back! Resist! I love you!" to a bunch of soulless wights doesn't strike you as denial? :smallbiggrin:

that wasn't smyg denial. that was sincere.

I've never liked tsukiko until that point (ok, i liked the character for his part in the story, but I'd have cheered the moment i saw her dead. actually, I did cheer when she died). But at that point, I could see a bit of tragedy in her story. She really loved the undead, and she really tougth they were like people.
So it gave a hint of sadness to the joy of her demise.

Flame of Anor
2012-01-25, 12:58 PM
that wasn't smyg denial. that was sincere.

Yeah...denial is when you're sincere about something even though, if you considered it logically, you'd see it didn't make sense.

rbetieh
2012-01-25, 01:05 PM
Meh, she was a girl playing with Dolls that never understood the world she was playing in. In a real sense, her death is liberating. She didnt belong in this world anyways, and assuming she becomes undead herself, she is actually in a better place.

I just love the way Redcloak has turned to utterly destroying his threats, it's refreshing to see it in him, but it will come back to bite him when he finds out that he destroyed the one person that would have made achieving subgoal (x) possible....

Oh well, if there is one thing the OOTSverse shows many times over is that everyone and everything is flawed, and when you grow out of one flaw, you fall into another, perfection is a dream, not a goal.....

Bleak Ink
2012-01-25, 01:07 PM
Her condescending and groundless superiority complex made her irritating in a beyond-Miko way for me, and I'm not going to pretend it wasn't satisfying watching that smirk leave while she got a fine lecture proper for unruly children. She was sympathetic in a way- she didn't understand, couldn't fathom how in over her head she was; she thought she was the lead character in a sleazy romance novel. The fact that she was ignorant doesn't lessen how aggravating watching her saunter around like she had a clue was, though.

Bastian Weaver
2012-01-25, 01:22 PM
I found it joyful, too. Didn't like Tsukiko, and also there were players like that in one of my games. Ew.

Cranica
2012-01-25, 01:49 PM
I didn't like Tsukiko, but her death still stirred a bit of pity from me. Redcloak is downright terrifying anymore.

Nilan8888
2012-01-25, 02:05 PM
The thing was this: Tsukiko 'loved' the undead the same way Maxamillien Robespierre 'loved' the living: a theoretical sort of love that was about her rather than that which she supposedly loved.

Did she love any one undead over another one? Xykon, perhaps?

Fact of the matter was, Tsukiko was a narcissist in the truest sense of the word (Belkar and Xykon may be sociopaths, but Tsukiko was a narcissist). Everything was all about her.

There are two types of narcissists: the ones that DEMAND attention and have to be the center of all things and the best of everything... and then there are the ones that cast themselves as the victim, and everything is about their suffering and how nobody loves them. Tsukiko was of a certainty of the latter sort.

But the question is for these people: who have you truly loved?

What, she loved... 'the undead'? Which undead? All of them? Even the ones she hadn't met?

Like any narcissist, she was in love with her objects. Objects are so much easier to deal with than people: they have no needs of their own, or at least none that are not predictable. There are no emotions to manage or feel empathy with.

What she thinks is love is really a profound selfishness, and her isolation and inability to understand humans is largely self-imposed. True, the Paladins blocked her from her practices in necromancy and in that way could be said to restrict her 'freedom'... but then, what exactly was it that made her want to take it up to begin with?

Hazzardevil
2012-01-25, 02:42 PM
I did feel sorry for Tsukiko as she died, I always saw her as a young girl playing with fire, although I was expecting one of the wights to apologize to her as she died.

Steward
2012-01-25, 02:51 PM
I did feel sorry for Tsukiko as she died, I always saw her as a young girl playing with fire, although I was expecting one of the wights to apologize to her as she died.

Me too, but thinking back, I think that was the point of Redcloak's speech during that (well, at the end, anyway). If it was four hobgoblins coerced into attacking Redcloak or Jirix, they might have felt some kind of pity and fought against the control. But wights can't do that. They have no meaningful free will -- they're less than living constructs, really. They don't feel anything (love, lust, hatred, sympathy) for Tsukiko or Redcloak or each other or even themselves. That last wight is going to put itself in the fireplace and sit there... and sit there... until it is completely destroyed.

Yes, they can talk, and yes she can make them be around her and say they love her, but they don't and can't mean it.

doodthedud
2012-01-25, 03:28 PM
Yes, they can talk, and yes she can make them be around her and say they love her, but they don't and can't mean it.

And I think, deep down, she knows that. But refuses to accept it.






...and then there are the ones that cast themselves as the victim, and everything is about their suffering and how nobody loves them. Tsukiko was of a certainty of the latter sort.

But the question is for these people: who have you truly loved?

What, she loved... 'the undead'? Which undead? All of them? Even the ones she hadn't met?

Like any narcissist, she was in love with her objects. Objects are so much easier to deal with than people: they have no needs of their own, or at least none that are not predictable. There are no emotions to manage or feel empathy with.

What she thinks is love is really a profound selfishness, and her isolation and inability to understand humans is largely self-imposed.

I think this hits the nail on the head. She doesn't love them. She refuses to love things. Love means tolerating when things upset you. But she turned away from the living because they upset her. She wasn't willing to put up with the regular hardships of friendship and companionship. In this way, she refused to be a part of the human race, a species that relies profoundly on companionship. She isolated herself because people didn't give her the instant gratification she wanted.


...and then there are the ones that cast themselves as the victim, and everything is about their suffering and how nobody loves them. Tsukiko was of a certainty of the latter sort.

I think this sort of person is much more common in our society than many people realize.

Nilan8888
2012-01-25, 04:03 PM
I think this hits the nail on the head. She doesn't love them. She refuses to love things. Love means tolerating when things upset you. But she turned away from the living because they upset her. She wasn't willing to put up with the regular hardships of friendship and companionship. In this way, she refused to be a part of the human race, a species that relies profoundly on companionship. She isolated herself because people didn't give her the instant gratification she wanted.

Or rather, she chose to 'love' things, which is exactly the point... THINGS, OBJECTS, TOOLS. Things that were incapable of emoting back, of ever giving an undesirable response, as you note. Always deferring, always instantanious. And any needs they do have she can forsee and has power over.

No risk. Always, always hiding in that place of greater safety. No alarms and no surprises, please.

And if you pour all this emotion into something which you have made so sure cannot possibly tell you anything you don't want to hear, isn't that really just time you are spending on YOURSELF? Tsukiko, really, is sacrificing herself on an altar of her own reflection.

Whatever RedCloak's failings, he is at least not quite so far down the path that she was. He too is somewhat isolated from his own people, but at least he has the insight to understand certain things about himself and when his empathy is failing. Tsukiko lacked even THAT insight.



I think this sort of person is much more common in our society than many people realize.

So many of us are like this. The question is how far does this run for an individual? We all have that impulse to pull back when things are difficult, to collect ourselves.

The problem becomes when you've gone so far you're incapable of relating to other people any longer, and so you seek out objects to replace those people or worse, begin treating people as if they are those objects, which is how abuse often arises.

Themrys
2012-01-25, 04:16 PM
I, actually, found Tsukiko's death uplifting, too. After she had murdered that grandfather-like old goblin, I just couldn't feel any pity for her.
(Or maybe it was how she talked about the whole thing. That she insulted Redcloak. Of course, he IS evil...but since he started to realize that hobgoblins are goblins, too, I somewhat like him)

veti
2012-01-25, 04:28 PM
The thing was this: Tsukiko 'loved' the undead the same way Maxamillien Robespierre 'loved' the living: a theoretical sort of love that was about her rather than that which she supposedly loved.

+1 Insightful.

If Redcloak had just cast Destruction, Implosion or similar on 'Suki, I wouldn't have minded a bit. But he went the extra mile to be cruel. Of course that's perfectly in character, and she'd given him every reason to do it - heck, he even offered her an out, when he asked what she was going to do with the information - but I still find it horrific.

Yeah, I know, I'm a softie.

TheArsenal
2012-01-25, 04:35 PM
I found it uplifting in 3 senses:

She was annoying: her level of smug knowitallness was REALY getting to me.

What the guys above said: She picked the dead because they where her puppets that she could have say "We love you mommy". There was a level of her acknowledging her self delusion as she did have that ring. What was that crap about undead hurting only those that try to hurt them?

And Good for her: Imagin if she DID become Xykons left arm. Years of abuse to follow. Like a grimmer Harley Quin.

Nilan8888
2012-01-25, 04:45 PM
That's something else: this fate was pretty easy for Tsukiko to avoid. It's not so much the RedCloak was giving her an out... it was that she totally had the drop on him and arrogantly yielded it.

Was RC cruel here? I suppose, but given his situation, was he any more cruel than a neutral character would have been?

Look, this was a horrible thing to do, but I don't think he did this for the purposes of poetic justice. He did it because it made expedient sense. Yes, he could have spent another spell casting implode on her, assuming he had more prepared, but he already had her own minions under his control, so why not use them?

RC is under no illusions here: Tsukiko would have shown no mercy on him, and shows no mercy towards his people: she kills them on a whim. She killed one innocent bystander just that day. She was a danger to him, a danger to his people.

Did he want her dead? I'm not sure if even THAT'S true: he wanted the threat neutralized. He certainly wasn't adverse to killing her, which makes him evil, but I'm not sure this isn't something that was a prison of Tsukiko's own creation. She pushed him, and kept pushing and pushing.

That he takes a moment of satisfaction when she is beaten -- and I'm not sure that satisfaction is what's going on as he watches her die, but just explaining to her how stupid she's been -- that's clearly understandable.

RedCloak's depth of infamy were on display a few comics earlier when he brought down the resistance and was willing to see his own loyal spy executed to finish the job (which he thankfully didn't have to do). Although this was a squeamish comic, I'm not sure what RC actually does is going out of his way to be cruel: he's engaging in self defense here, and removing the threat by an expedient means. That certainly doesn't make him GOOD, and he's proven time and again that he's evil... but thinking on it, we've seen a fair bit worse from him than this.

Fergurg
2012-01-25, 05:04 PM
I found her death tragic. Yes, she was a necromancer and yes, she flaunted her "authority" over Redcloak, but what teenage girl would not have done the same thing? She was bitter and found what she thought was love and went running toward it, only to discover that the "love" wasn't real.

And I think that was the greatest tragedy; she was betrayed by the very things she loved and she thought would love her back. And all the while, Redcloak stood there and watched.

jidasfire
2012-01-25, 05:07 PM
What I liked about Tsukiko was that she added another element of conflict, not to mention a female voice, to Team Evil. From a story perspective, it makes sense for Redcloak to do what he did, but I guess I just figured she'd serve more of a narrative purpose than she did before she went down. I find that when it comes to the villains of the comic, it's rare that they do murder in a half-hearted way. They go for the hurt as well as the kill, and Redcloak, who up to now was at least somewhat merciful, pretty much killed her in the cruelest way he could. I can't really call that uplifting in any sense. Appropriate, but quite disturbing.

Nilan8888
2012-01-25, 05:11 PM
What I liked about Tsukiko was that she added another element of conflict, not to mention a female voice, to Team Evil. From a story perspective, it makes sense for Redcloak to do what he did, but I guess I just figured she'd serve more of a narrative purpose than she did before she went down.

I agree with all this, including the narrative purpose stuff: yeah, she added another dynamic which was pretty good.

ThePhantasm
2012-01-25, 05:22 PM
I'm glad the character is dead, and she got what she deserved, but to call it "uplifting" seems really off to me. Uplifting?! Maybe that means something different to me than it does to you guys...

Chronos
2012-01-25, 05:29 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to call her death "cheerful", but it was certainly satisfying. Nor do I think it was a particularly evil or cruel act on Redcloak's part. He efficiently used the resources that were available to him, to decisively neutralize what otherwise would have been a lethal threat to him. I'd expect the same of any adventurer. When someone threatens to kill you (and make no mistake, that is what Tsukiko was threatening, whether she realized it or not), it's perfectly justified to kill them if that's what it takes.

As for Tsukiko's death itself: What actually killed her was, literally, embracing that which she claimed to love. She's long maintained that negative energy was just as worthy and valid as positive energy. Well, here she got a big heaping dose of that negative energy she purports to value. If she had honestly held the views she claimed, one might almost say that that was a good or desirable end for her.

Rorrik
2012-01-25, 05:33 PM
that wasn't smyg denial. that was sincere.

I've never liked tsukiko until that point (ok, i liked the character for his part in the story, but I'd have cheered the moment i saw her dead. actually, I did cheer when she died). But at that point, I could see a bit of tragedy in her story. She really loved the undead, and she really tougth they were like people.
So it gave a hint of sadness to the joy of her demise.

This is what made it so sweet for me. Maybe I'm a bad person, but her being killed by the undead she professed were people, and better people than the living, was just what she deserves after such willful ignorance. Red Cloak, I salute your handling of the situation.

Anarion
2012-01-25, 05:33 PM
I'm glad the character is dead, and she got what she deserved, but to call it "uplifting" seems really off to me. Uplifting?! Maybe that means something different to me than it does to you guys...

I'm going to agree with this. Uplifting is the wrong word. Her death was deserved, and it was delivered in a manner that thoroughly wreaked of poetic justice. But she was still killed. She was a deluded, twisted person who had no understanding of the world in which she found herself, and ultimately she was destroyed by the things she loved. That's a bit sad really. The only reason I don't feel worse for her is because she was so smug before dying, thinking that she was untouchable because of her past successes.

veti
2012-01-25, 11:36 PM
She was a deluded, twisted person who had no understanding of the world in which she found herself, and ultimately she was destroyed by the things she loved. That's a bit sad really. The only reason I don't feel worse for her is because she was so smug before dying, thinking that she was untouchable because of her past successes.

"Past successes" is putting it a bit strongly, I think. Her only real "success" was surviving Redcloak's idea of a team entrance examination. Since then she's been useless at quelling the resistance, was pretty useless against Darth V, and has fared not much better at decoding the ritual. (The fact that she made some correct deductions about it being completely overshadowed by the fact that she blabbed about them to RC before - or, as it happened, instead of - telling Xykon. And anyway, it was the MitD who gave her the big clue.)

I've been trying to think what I think is sad about her death, but I'm having a hard time thinking of anything. Horrifying, sure - that's a terrible way to die. But sad?

Maybe, just maybe, if you think she could have been redeemed. But personally I don't think that was ever on the cards.

Mr Jones
2012-01-26, 12:00 AM
I think Nilan hits the nail on the head as far as Tsukiko goes.

The whole thing is horrible, but I wouldn't say Redcloak went out of his way to be cruel. He could have just as easily ordered the wights to eat her alive, after all. He just seems to have picked the way of killing her that had the least amount of risk and exertion to himself.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a Bad Thing with capital letters, it's just not cruelty for cruelty's sake. He didn't seem to be relishing it in the panels where he watched it happen -- though he definitely seemed to enjoy turning the tables on her -- but then I'd be surprised if he felt at all guilty about it, either.

Guancyto
2012-01-26, 12:22 AM
It was pretty satisfying, but also convinced me that Redcloak can't possibly be Lawful.

He didn't read her her wights!
*ducks thrown fruit*

Mr. Pink
2012-01-26, 01:36 AM
+1 Insightful.

If Redcloak had just cast Destruction, Implosion or similar on 'Suki, I wouldn't have minded a bit. But he went the extra mile to be cruel. Of course that's perfectly in character, and she'd given him every reason to do it - heck, he even offered her an out, when he asked what she was going to do with the information - but I still find it horrific.

Yeah, I know, I'm a softie.

However, as far as Redcloak is concerned, he merely used the tools at his disposal without having to deal with the mess of an extended caster fight. To Tsuiko there is a clear difference between methods and there was up until the end, between her "children" and killing with magic. Redcloak explained that he saw no difference between either form of negative energy, and knew grappling a caster is an immediate edge not afforded by spells.

Her death, while poetic, held the same amount of feeling for me as Kubota's. Suprise, and a poignant reminder that pride cometh before a fall, but at its core was the swift removal of a loose end by a member of the cast previously underestimated.

Flame of Anor
2012-01-26, 02:39 AM
Suprise, and a poignant reminder that pride cometh before a fall, but at its core was the swift removal of a loose end by a member of the cast previously underestimated.

Note: the actual quote is "Pride goeth before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall."

SadisticFishing
2012-01-26, 02:57 AM
It wasn't totally realistic. Usually people that smug die saying, "Se? I was right! I'm right and you're wrong! I'm absolutely right and you're w-"*splorch*

She wasn't in enough denial.

Uh, you've seen a lot of smug people dying?

I think you're comparing this to other fiction, and not real life. Also, that would have been terrible writing. She obviously was losing, she was getting the lift sucked out of her until the end. "Why don't you love me?" was perfectly written.

realroadcrossin
2012-01-26, 03:11 AM
However, as far as Redcloak is concerned, he merely used the tools at his disposal without having to deal with the mess of an extended caster fight. To Tsuiko there is a clear difference between methods and there was up until the end, between her "children" and killing with magic. Redcloak explained that he saw no difference between either form of negative energy, and knew grappling a caster is an immediate edge not afforded by spells.

Her death, while poetic, held the same amount of feeling for me as Kubota's. Suprise, and a poignant reminder that pride cometh before a fall, but at its core was the swift removal of a loose end by a member of the cast previously underestimated.

Yeah but unlike Kubota her death showed that she really lived in that little daydream until the end. Most of the rest of the cast is constantly plotting behind the scenes for good or evil but Tsukiko was really doing what she just loved. Redcloak and Xykon have a whole bunch of secrets and ulterior motives that they're keeping from each other, and being stuck with each other in azure city after losing another gate really amped that up. Xykon obviously was trying to use Tsukiko to find a way to do the ritual without Redcloak, but I don't think he realizes how much Redcloak's pumping up his game too. I think this is a moment where Xykon's really tipped his hand and Redcloak's gonna milk it for all its worth, and I'm wondering how their gonna maintain this game of psychological russian roulette over the next two gates.

Cronos988
2012-01-26, 03:35 AM
I kind of find it disturbing that someone would call a death like this "uplifting" or even "deserved".
Ok, this is only a comic, and I guess it is ok (though not entirely understandable) to hate fictional characters, but the manner of her death was clearly horrific.
It was simply torture, an overly cruel way to kill her: Feeling how the life is slowly sucked from you, while being utterly helpless and realizing how your entire philosophy was basically completely wrong is one of the worst ways to die possible.

Sure, she was evil, selfish and stupid, but that does not make her death any less horrific. Torture is always evil, even considering D&D standards. For me, #830 shows just how Evil RC really is.

sockmonkey
2012-01-26, 05:27 AM
I don't think RC was going for maximum pain, as much as re-establishing his dominance after being under Tsukiko's heel for so long. Turning her own "children" against her was the most dramatic and poigniant way to demonstrate the he was in controll. Also, I think he was reaffirming that his years of work and experience were worth more than getting a quick ride to the top because the boss likes you.

Nilan8888
2012-01-26, 08:59 AM
I think Nilan hits the nail on the head as far as Tsukiko goes.

The whole thing is horrible, but I wouldn't say Redcloak went out of his way to be cruel. He could have just as easily ordered the wights to eat her alive, after all. He just seems to have picked the way of killing her that had the least amount of risk and exertion to himself.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a Bad Thing with capital letters, it's just not cruelty for cruelty's sake. He didn't seem to be relishing it in the panels where he watched it happen -- though he definitely seemed to enjoy turning the tables on her -- but then I'd be surprised if he felt at all guilty about it, either.

Thanks for the kudos.

I of course agree with all of this. Except I would say that while I do think RC probably doesn't feel guilty about doing that to her... would a member of the OOtS feel guilty either?

I mean, think about it -- if Haley went in and shot Tsukiko to death with her arrows, would she feel guilty? I admit that maybe she wouldn't want to kill Tsukiko in the manner that RC felt most expedient, but when it comes down to it, does either one make her any less dead? And would either death be any less physically painful?



I kind of find it disturbing that someone would call a death like this "uplifting" or even "deserved".
Ok, this is only a comic, and I guess it is ok (though not entirely understandable) to hate fictional characters, but the manner of her death was clearly horrific.
It was simply torture, an overly cruel way to kill her: Feeling how the life is slowly sucked from you, while being utterly helpless and realizing how your entire philosophy was basically completely wrong is one of the worst ways to die possible.

Sure, she was evil, selfish and stupid, but that does not make her death any less horrific. Torture is always evil, even considering D&D standards. For me, #830 shows just how Evil RC really is.

The thing was it seemed to me that if there was any torture, it was incidental. If this wasn't the easiest way to kill her, it was close to. Most other ways would have demanded a magic battle take place.

Was the life sucked from her and did that hurt? Sure, but how much more exactly did that part hurt then when she killed that innocent Hobgoblin?

Was it painful emotionally to be utterly helpless? Sure, but that was exactly what she'd been doing to RedCloak moments before.

Is it earth-shattering to have her entire philosophy destroyed? Yes: but it was a patently absurd philosophy to begin with that was based entirely on emotional cowardice. Had she been a person of more honesty, insight and compassion, she would have never had this ludicrous philosophy to begin with, and it DESERVED to be torn down.

I won't go on to say Tsukiko deserved what happened to her in the greater sense of things. But I do think that this doesn't classify as torture. What RC did to O'Chul? What Xykon did to O'Chul? THAT was torture. This was self defense: that it was tortuous was incidental.

leakingpen
2012-01-26, 10:00 AM
Not enough. She needed to sound triumphant that what she did absolutely worked, and Redcloak had lost, and keep going on like this to the end.

...it's how certain people who shall remain unnamed who I know argue. You can record them, play the recording back, and they will say, "I never said that."

I bet if they were dying by having their very life force sucked out of them, they might get a little panicky.

I agree completely.

Jay R
2012-01-26, 12:11 PM
She was a smug little self-obsessed, self-deluded twit who was more annoying than Miko.

But the tragedy of her life is this: the biggest difference between her and Dark Mistress Shadowgale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) is that Shadowgale got the chance to grow up and become a real person.

Cronos988
2012-01-26, 12:25 PM
The thing was it seemed to me that if there was any torture, it was incidental. If this wasn't the easiest way to kill her, it was close to. Most other ways would have demanded a magic battle take place.

Was the life sucked from her and did that hurt? Sure, but how much more exactly did that part hurt then when she killed that innocent Hobgoblin?

Was it painful emotionally to be utterly helpless? Sure, but that was exactly what she'd been doing to RedCloak moments before.

Is it earth-shattering to have her entire philosophy destroyed? Yes: but it was a patently absurd philosophy to begin with that was based entirely on emotional cowardice. Had she been a person of more honesty, insight and compassion, she would have never had this ludicrous philosophy to begin with, and it DESERVED to be torn down.

I won't go on to say Tsukiko deserved what happened to her in the greater sense of things. But I do think that this doesn't classify as torture. What RC did to O'Chul? What Xykon did to O'Chul? THAT was torture. This was self defense: that it was tortuous was incidental.

So the bottom line here is: She was evil, so torturing her is not? I don't think I can agree, not even according to D&D Morals.
She was helpless, no battle would have taken place. He could always just disintegrate her.
I would argue that (purely in D&D morals) killing Tsukiko, as such, would be considered a good act, so long as its necessary (and it was in this case) since she is clearly evil. Killing her to advance a plan on world domination might shift it into neutral.
However, causing unnecessary pain to any creature is always evil, and I am pretty sure "drain her, then eat her" was not necessary.

But of course whether or not it constitutes torture depends on how you imagine a level drain feels like. Lets just say when I imagine being slowly drained to death, while being utterly helpless, it seems a pretty horrible way to die.

Nilan8888
2012-01-26, 02:06 PM
So the bottom line here is: She was evil, so torturing her is not? I don't think I can agree, not even according to D&D Morals.
She was helpless, no battle would have taken place. He could always just disintegrate her.
I would argue that (purely in D&D morals) killing Tsukiko, as such, would be considered a good act, so long as its necessary (and it was in this case) since she is clearly evil. Killing her to advance a plan on world domination might shift it into neutral.
However, causing unnecessary pain to any creature is always evil, and I am pretty sure "drain her, then eat her" was not necessary.

But of course whether or not it constitutes torture depends on how you imagine a level drain feels like. Lets just say when I imagine being slowly drained to death, while being utterly helpless, it seems a pretty horrible way to die.

No, what constitutes torture is intent. And I am saying RC did not intend to torture Tsukiko. He intended to torture O'Chul. The alignment difference between the two subjects is irrelevant.

As pretty sure as you are that "drain her, eat her" was not necessary, I am equally sure that it either was, or any alternative was no better or was less expedient. Should he disintegrate her himself? What about all her wights? Should he have controlled all the wights and THEN disintigrated her? That's using more spells on her than he needs to, and engaging her in a battle of spellcasting gives her a better opportunity to fight back: what if she had made a save.

The fact that the act was tortuous and that it was a horrible way to go does not mean it was torture. It was self defense, in my view. It was not as if RC was depicted to be planning exactly this scenario.

For something like this to be torture would mean he would have intentionally dragged it out and made her beg for this or that. He did nothing like this. Yes, he vented out his aggressions on her: but she had brought much of that aggression on herself to begin with.

I am in no way saying what RC did was GOOD. I'm just saying I don't see how this constitutes torture. He did what he needed to do. Could he have found a spell that put her in an IV in a hospital bed and teleported her family around and let her say goodbye to all of them before she died? Sure, maybe. Could he have used a spell that was certain to kill someone of her level instantly? Sure, he could have done that too.

But the fact that he didn't make those extra efforts or put himself a little more at risk on behalf of making her demise less painful does not mean he tortured her. It might mean that he refused to put her out of her misery quicker than he could have (and it's not as if it took very long for her to die), but it doesn't mean he tortured her.

CN the Logos
2012-01-26, 03:26 PM
I wouldn't call it uplifting (that's a word I typically associate with stuff like the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, or the televised ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion), but she walked right into it, and her particular combination of smugness, psychosis, and arrogance meant I was glad to see her go. Her dying words were a bit pathetic, but being a bit pathetic in the face of death does not nullify she fact that she was a monster, and a recklessly overconfident one at that.

Regarding the whole torture debate: Tsukiko's death only counts as torture by the most squeamish person possible's definition of the word. It's stated in one of the sourcebooks that being energy drained hurts, but she didn't shriek in agony like the victim of a Wrack (effectively Crucio with the addition of blisters and bleeding from the eyes, for those of you who haven't played D&D but have read Harry Potter). That's a cleric spell from the Book of Vile Darkness, which Redcloak has access to; if he'd wanted her to die in agonizing pain, he could have made that happen.

With four wights holding her, she wasn't in pain for very long either. Wall of text from Redcloak aside, I strongly doubt she was higher level than him, so she can't have lived for longer than thirty seconds after that ring was removed.

Lastly, Tsukiko was arrogant without the epic levels to back it up, delusional to the point of thinking Xykon had redeeming qualities, and her primary interest was turning people into meat puppets that couldn't hurt her feelings. Forgive me if I don't feel bad about Redcloak not taking the time to make her a cup of hot chocolate and restrain her more comfortably before putting her down like the sick puppy that she was.

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-26, 04:15 PM
While the image of Tsukiko being devoured alive by zombies is supposed to be horrific, i found it actually joyful.

The fact is, Tsukiko is a horrible, horrible individual. That i can tolerate. Xykon is horrible, Tarquin is horrible, Redcloak is horrible. But Tsukiko was something worse: SMUG. She was an incompetent little girl playing at a game that she didn't realize the gravity of. Every time she threatened the goblins or talked down to Redcloak, it just grated me more and more.Wait...Xykon, Tarquin, and Redcloak aren't smug? If "smug" is being defined as "thinking you have something far more powerful than you under your thumb" then the same goes for Redcloak (in regards to Xykon) and Xykon (in regards to the Snarl). And I daresay Tarquin is every bit as smug as Nale, he just does a much better job at holding it in.

pita
2012-01-26, 04:30 PM
He didn't read her her wights!

This is not fruit. It is unduckable.
You are a terrible terrible person and your crimes against humanity on this day will not be forgotten.

My own opinion is that it's uplifting, after reading Start of Darkness, to see Redcloak begin to change his ways. To try to gain mastery over someone who dominated him so utterly.

snikrept
2012-01-26, 04:45 PM
It's true that a character who is a jerk and does some evil may be viewed by readers as more of a monster than a character who is charming and funny and does a LOT of evil.

Despite that being one of the big themes of the comic: namely, that how insufferable and/or likeable a character is is largely decoupled from whether their actions are good or evil.

In the end the readers are humans, and we like seeing an insufferable git get what's coming to them more than we like seeing a mover of great evil get theirs. I guess this is because we all can relate to dealing with the insufferable git in our daily lives more than we can relate to having something like all of our relatives' relatives familicided, or our entire city burnt down by goblins and the inhabitants slaughtered / exiled, for example.

The insufferable character with his petty verbal slights produces a more visceral response in the readers because the scale of the evil done by the great mover is just way to big for us to grasp on a personal level. Kill a man, you're a murderer, kill a thousand and you're a war hero and so forth.

veti
2012-01-26, 06:05 PM
As pretty sure as you are that "drain her, eat her" was not necessary, I am equally sure that it either was, or any alternative was no better or was less expedient. Should he disintegrate her himself? What about all her wights? Should he have controlled all the wights and THEN disintigrated her? That's using more spells on her than he needs to, and engaging her in a battle of spellcasting gives her a better opportunity to fight back: what if she had made a save.

I wouldn't disagree that what Redcloak did was probably the most efficient way of killing Tsukiko. (The gloating was neither necessary nor efficient, but it was understandable.)

But that doesn't make the method of killing any less cruel.

If Haley had shot Suki full of arrows, or if Belkar had decapitated her, neither they nor I would have felt the least bit bad about it because they would have been in a position where they didn't have that many options. In a fight, you win any way you can.

But Redcloak had options. He could have used a spell, he could have used a weapon. (Given the environment, I make the assumption that there are weapons around somewhere nearby, and Redcloak has at least a basic idea of how to use them. His BAB should certainly be quite respectable.) But he chose to use the "weapon" that would cause the maximum possible suffering to the victim.

I have no interest in arguing semantics around the 't' word. I'll settle for "horrible" or "horrific".

Math_Mage
2012-01-26, 06:16 PM
Uplifting? No. Dramatic? Yes. Sad? Not really. Tragic? Yes, in the classic sense. Torture? Irrelevant (but not really). Painful? Not especially, relative to the various other options available to Redcloak. Does it show that Redcloak indulges in For the Evulz? No, it shows that he's a cold calculating b***ard.

Can I be bothered to write in a less annoying format? No.

Chronos
2012-01-26, 06:38 PM
Yes, he could have used a spell, but he might end up needing those later today (and in fact, we see in 831 that he did, in fact, need several other spells today). He could have tried to use a weapon, but that would most likely have just resulted in him dying. When someone is trying to get you killed, you respond with whatever is going to be most effective. Restricting your options isn't "fair", or "noble", or anything like that. It's just stupid. His decision to order Tsukiko's wights against her is no different than his decision to have the elemental crush Thahn.

Tanuki Tales
2012-01-26, 06:38 PM
All I will say concerning her death, aside from it being tragic in my eyes and at least a mild bit sympathetic (Tsu was certainly nowhere near some of the Complete Monsters I've read and watched), is that I'm personally waiting to be amused to see when Redcloak's own arrogance in this situation comes back to bite him.

It would surprise me not one little bit for Xykon to not be as completely ignorant as Redcloak believes. There is a lot of times where Redcloak is not around or not aware what Xykon is doing by himself and sure, we will generally see Redcloak stumble upon Xykon doing something out of boredom that is stupid or a waste of time, but that doesn't mean that's what he was doing the whole time.

Redcloak himself is a very tragic figure and it would only be fitting for him to be hoisted by his own cloak in the end, so to speak.

Gnoman
2012-01-26, 06:57 PM
Yes, he could have used a spell, but he might end up needing those later today (and in fact, we see in 831 that he did, in fact, need several other spells today). He could have tried to use a weapon, but that would most likely have just resulted in him dying. When someone is trying to get you killed, you respond with whatever is going to be most effective. Restricting your options isn't "fair", or "noble", or anything like that. It's just stupid. His decision to order Tsukiko's wights against her is no different than his decision to have the elemental crush Thahn.

I agree completely. Using spells instead of the wights would be like a soldier reacdhing for his pistol when he was carrying a perfectly good flamethrower. The pistol might be less "cruel", but it's a much less practical means of dispatching the opponent. All doing it the way he did cost him was a single use of a class ability that he almost certainly rarely uses (His enemies are mostly Good, and Good characters rarely make use of undead.)

Rorrik
2012-01-26, 07:23 PM
Tsukiko's death, not pleasant, the lesson to be learned about the undead and their true nature, that was uplifting. Tsukiko was deluded, at least RC recognizes that the means he uses are evil. It was good to see the truth of the matter forced down Tsukiko's confused, unbelieving throat.

sockmonkey
2012-01-26, 07:40 PM
Wait...Xykon, Tarquin, and Redcloak aren't smug? If "smug" is being defined as "thinking you have something far more powerful than you under your thumb" then the same goes for Redcloak (in regards to Xykon) and Xykon (in regards to the Snarl). And I daresay Tarquin is every bit as smug as Nale, he just does a much better job at holding it in.Xykon, Tarquin, and Redcloak all earned it to a lesser or greater degree through things like cunning, power, or just hanging in there.

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-26, 07:49 PM
Xykon, Tarquin, and Redcloak all earned it to a lesser or greater degree through things like cunning, power, or just hanging in there.Tsukiko earned her power, it just wasn't enough to bully Redcloak like she thought. Xykon earned his power, it just isn't enough to control the Snarl like he thinks. And the OP said nothing about "earning" smugness, just implied that the 3 lacked it. That's what I had a problem with.

lio45
2012-01-26, 08:45 PM
But Redcloak had options. He could have used a spell, he could have used a weapon. (Given the environment, I make the assumption that there are weapons around somewhere nearby, and Redcloak has at least a basic idea of how to use them. His BAB should certainly be quite respectable.) But he chose to use the "weapon" that would cause the maximum possible suffering to the victim.

That last sentence is exactly where I disagree (and I'm not the only one, from what I've read).

IMO, RC simply chose the safest way to eliminate a grappled Tsukiko. Any execution method that requires using stuff for which you've got barely more than a "basic idea of how to use them" (and "should be quite respectable" at) is definitely going to be a stupid risk, to quote our little friend Redcloak. I think the amount of suffering wasn't a factor in the choice of the method.




P.S. FWIW, I did find that awesome comic pretty "uplifting", and kickass enough that it brought me back to the forums to read the #0830 thread! Great work, Giant!

Nilan8888
2012-01-27, 11:25 AM
But Redcloak had options. He could have used a spell, he could have used a weapon. (Given the environment, I make the assumption that there are weapons around somewhere nearby, and Redcloak has at least a basic idea of how to use them. His BAB should certainly be quite respectable.) But he chose to use the "weapon" that would cause the maximum possible suffering to the victim.

I agree that he chose the weapon that would cause the maximum possible suffering to his victim compared to other weapons. But again, it's all about intent.

Despite the fact that it caused the maximum amount of possible suffering, I don't agree that's WHY he chose it. He chose it because it was expedient first and foremost. And he could have used it to cause even more suffering: as someone mentioned, he could have had them start to feed on her before she died.

Again, this is not a GOOD thing that RC did at all. But the fact of the matter is the manner in which Tsukiko died is in many ways her own fault, to say nothing of the fact of her own responsibility in the fact that she died at all (i.e: this is a situation she could have easily gotten around -- even when RC found her in his study he was more than willing to let her go; she TOTALLY had the drop on him even after being discovered, even after revealing to him why she was there, and went on to let the cat out of the bag and seal her fate).

She had undead around her all the time that could be used against her. It was a potential weapon that she left lying around. It would have been the same if she wandered around with her favorite gun open in the holster and eventually someone took it from her and shot her with it: the person killing her didn't use the gun because they knew it was her favorite gun, and even if they did, that's not WHY they used it. They used it because it was more or less the most convenient means.

That Tsukiko loved the undead that were used against her is incidental to the matter. That's not why RC chose to do it this way. He merely refused to choose another way because it might be less painful. And considering the position she put him in it's difficult to argue why he shouldn't: given a reversal of situations it's very possible Tsukiko actually WOULD have tortured RC, just for the fun of it.

FatJose
2012-01-27, 11:35 AM
Synonyms for Uplifting: Heart-Warming, Inspiring, Touching

I don't think the last couple of pages should make you feel any of these.

Faceist
2012-01-27, 01:38 PM
I was inspired to never develop affection for the rotting legions of the undead. So in a roundabout way, it was life-affirming!

Gullintanni
2012-01-27, 02:39 PM
Synonyms for Uplifting: Heart-Warming, Inspiring, Touching

I don't think the last couple of pages should make you feel any of these.

I dunno. Watching Tsukiko die horribly like she deserves certainly inspires me... to keep reading :smallwink:

It was emotionally gratifying. She had it comin'.

BillionSix
2012-01-27, 03:23 PM
I liked it too. It established that Redcloak wasn't just a "good guy in bad guy's clothing" while also getting rid of a very irritating character.

But has anyone considered the idea that between Miko and Tsukiko, maybe Rich just enjoys bumping off asian chicks? :smalltongue:

Gullintanni
2012-01-27, 03:27 PM
I liked it too. It established that Redcloak wasn't just a "good guy in bad guy's clothing" while also getting rid of a very irritating character.

But has anyone considered the idea that between Miko and Tsukiko, maybe Rich just enjoys bumping off asian chicks? :smalltongue:

Kazumi "I Can Just Make More In My Tummy" Kato is still alive. And I hope that never changes. :smalltongue:

Well you know...until natural causes.

Bulldog Psion
2012-01-27, 03:41 PM
No, it wasn't uplifting. I can't see I was particularly sorry to see her go, and her death certainly helped to re-establish Redcloak as a hard, tough, calculating, relentless character rather than being pushed around by a teenage psycho, but it didn't "uplift" me, either.

Put me down as an interested, but fairly impartial, observer. It was tragic but not depressing, I guess you could say.

Flame of Anor
2012-01-28, 02:04 AM
But has anyone considered the idea that between Miko and Tsukiko, maybe Rich just enjoys bumping off asian chicks? :smalltongue:

Someone has, but I don't remember which thread the post was in. Probably the #831 discussion thread.

Hazzardevil
2012-01-28, 04:55 AM
I'm not sure how many people know this, but wights are actually sentient beings, with each mental ability score above 10, so I think they can feel emotions.

sockmonkey
2012-01-28, 07:44 AM
Tsukiko earned her power, it just wasn't enough to bully Redcloak like she thought. Xykon earned his power, it just isn't enough to control the Snarl like he thinks. And the OP said nothing about "earning" smugness, just implied that the 3 lacked it. That's what I had a problem with.Im not talking about her skill/ability power, I'm talking about positional power. Those guys worked long and hard to get where they are, (working hard at being evil is still work) Tsukiko just showed up and was hanging with the boss five minutes later.

I certainly can't say that the 3 aren't smug, only that it's partly just acknowledgement of their own ability which can be mistaken for extra smugness.

Othniel Edden
2012-01-28, 08:05 AM
Poetic Justice is something that I find speaks to me.

Hardcore
2012-01-28, 09:43 AM
Poetic justice that someone that was so abused that she prefer undeads over humans is murdered by them? No. Ironic, I guess, but mostly ugly and horrible.
The strip was a real Evil moment, and a good reminder that OotS is more than just harmless jokes.

Tergon
2012-01-28, 09:48 AM
I'm not sure that at the time, Redcloak was even trying for Irony or Poetic Justice or even any real Mental Anguish with the manner of Tsukiko's death. Oh, sure, in hindsight he might get a chortle out of how he took care of her, but at the time? He needed to take care of her minions, and he needed her grappled to cancel out her effectiveness. At that point, with her surrounded by a mob of Wights that were under his control... well, telling them to kill her was really just the quickest and easiest way for him to do it. Eating her body and destroying themselves just removed the evidence.

The rather-fitting way she died wasn't lost on me, but if you take that aside... what Redcloak did was simply the most pragmatic and straightforward option as well as the most cruel. And at the time, I think he was less concerned with the latter than he was with the fomer two.

faustin
2012-01-28, 10:30 AM
Poetic justice that someone that was so abused that she prefer undeads over humans is murdered by them? No. Ironic, I guess, but mostly ugly and horrible.
The strip was a real Evil moment, and a good reminder that OotS is more than just harmless jokes.

1)We donīt know her past, so itīs your assumption Tsukiko was abused in any way.
2)After giving the sadistic option (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) to RC, what mercy should T have expected from him when the tables get turned?

Snails
2012-01-29, 01:06 AM
We are clearing the table of the children.

Tsukiko was an affectionate parody of a goth chick, but ultimately was too childish to be allowed to live beyond this point in the story. She died because of her own very purposefully chosen delusions about her own pets. (As a professional, she most certainly understood exactly what Redcloak could do with her little ones.)

Old Belkar had to go. The New Belkar under the tutelage of his cat has possibilities.

Thog was fun, but stupid fun. I am sure he will make another token appearance but he has no critical role left to play.

We are making room for a few more Real Players: Tarquin has officially taken a seat for the big game, we expect Clan Girard, and certainly more of Haley's father. It may be possible for Serini to appear...

ti'esar
2012-01-29, 01:45 AM
I'm going to repeat what I said in the thread on 830: I am not in the least bit sorry about Tsukiko's death. She was a smug, annoying twit, and karma caught up with her hard. But I do feel a bit sorry for her overall. Especially taking her last words into account, I felt like this took her "love" for undead from a mildly creepy running gag into a genuine psychosis. And I have to wonder what someone or something screwed this girl up so badly.

Ulysses WkAmil
2012-01-29, 02:17 AM
Why wouldn't it be cheerful? One less person for the protagonists to fight. You remember the protagonists, right? :smallbiggrin:

yldenfrei
2012-01-29, 06:41 AM
Not exactly uplifting, but deep satisfaction. To me, Tsukiko is teenage angst pushed to ridiculous depths that no amount of redemption/enlightenment/schooling can undo. Her death, while not cheer-inducing, afforded me a sigh of relief at finally getting rid of a nuisance. Redcloak's diatribe is that of an exasperated listener fed up and no longer willing to put up with Tsukiko's self-righteous ways. The cannibalization to me is less of a poetic justice than a very good way of disposing the threat without so much as touching it. Simply put, Redcloak finally swatted the fly. Good riddance.

Redcloak's 4-Panel silent watching speaks to me the most: the dispassionate gaze of a bystander whilst thinking, "You foolish, foolish girl."


We are clearing the table of the children.

And high time, too. :smallamused:

aldeayeah
2012-01-29, 07:15 AM
But the tragedy of her life is this: the biggest difference between her and Dark Mistress Shadowgale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) is that Shadowgale got the chance to grow up and become a real person.
She was way too commited to her lifestyle to shrug it off, it was not just a teenage pose. In other words, she had already become a real (broken) person.

Snails
2012-01-29, 01:23 PM
But I do feel a bit sorry for her overall. Especially taking her last words into account, I felt like this took her "love" for undead from a mildly creepy running gag into a genuine psychosis. And I have to wonder what someone or something screwed this girl up so badly.

Certainly. And one might wonder how Belkar got to his place of perfect psychopathy. But it would probably be neither funny enough nor dramatic enough to explore either back story onscreen.

The stakes are ratcheting up and the hopeless losers are being left in the dust, for very good reasons. Even Nale would be deader than dead if Tarquin did recognize that pointing an angry Malack at Nale's head was the only sufficiently quick and effective way to get in the Big Game at this critical juncture.

ti'esar
2012-01-29, 06:27 PM
Certainly. And one might wonder how Belkar got to his place of perfect psychopathy. But it would probably be neither funny enough nor dramatic enough to explore either back story onscreen.

Oh, I'm not saying I want to see it - I didn't like her much as a character and still don't. But like aldeayeah said, this is the first time where I got the sensation that her whole attitude was more then just the pose Haley took it for. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html)


The stakes are ratcheting up and the hopeless losers are being left in the dust, for very good reasons. Even Nale would be deader than dead if Tarquin did recognize that pointing an angry Malack at Nale's head was the only sufficiently quick and effective way to get in the Big Game at this critical juncture.

Who says he doesn't? There's been a lot of speculation that "This is business, Malack" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) may be a code as in "business before pleasure". Nale's not out of the woods yet.

Omergideon
2012-01-29, 07:00 PM
I personally found Tsukikos death to be a relief. Largely for the reason that.........She was the least interesting character in the comic to me. If not the least than one of. For me, as a character she had no redeeming qualities. Her jokes were not funny, her actions sick, her attitudes annoying and she was just unpleasant to read about. Now all of this might have been forgiveable (such characters have a place perhaps) had she been less prominent in team evil. But then I disliked her even more early on. The greatest tradegy though.....Tsukiko was boring. Much as psycho Belkar became predictable, boring and thus unenjoyable, Tsukiko always was. Her personality was one dimensional at best and her actions offered no real insights into any moral, philosophical or other dilemma. I could not enjoy her presence in the comic.

Now an annoying character can be a boon to a story and well written. A writer who can get you to hate a character and wish to see a comuppance.....that is good old fashions Heel heat to use a wrestling term. Umbridge in OoTP from Harry Potter is annoying. So is wormtail, or Dudley. However they are interesting due to their contrasts (umbridges sweetness and sadism), thei conflicts (Wormy) or their developments. Miko too was supremely annoying, but she was fascinating. Tsukiko........was not. She had what we call x-pac heat.

Tsukiko was a one note joke character whose joke failed to amuse or interest me on any level. She did nothing that generic minion 69 could not have done. And I am glad she left the story.

Allthough her last strips did provide some impetus for Reddy to grow as a character, so she served some purpose. But too little, too late.

Joe the Rat
2012-01-29, 11:16 PM
It "inspired" me to stop lurking, does that count?

On my first read-though, I would say yeah. Look, RC is turning the tables on that childish twit, and coming out triumphant (Insert gesture of "Oh yeah!" here). He's got to be enjoying this... Oh wait, no.


Does it show that Redcloak indulges in For the Evulz? No, it shows that he's a cold calculating b***ard.

That right there. You look at Redcloak, and through the end of it, he's not smiling. He's not even smirking. He's got his business face on. The "uplift" was the sociopathic joy we feel at someone dishing out well-deserved revenge. But this wasn't revenge. Redcloak wasn't suffering under Tsukiko's heel - He was putting up with her nonsense to maintain his "strings." He takes her out in a big, nasty way, but takes her out simply because it would be messier to let her live.

But rather than horrific, I found it sad. Tsukiko was horribly confused about life and undeath. While living, she could have realized how messed up she was (not likely, but possible). Now, the chance of accepting the truth of things that in the end, she's all too aware of, is gone.

Demonicbunny
2012-01-29, 11:24 PM
IMHO Redcloak isn't smug.
If there is a word that describes Redcloak it's "Ruthless". Absolute 100% ruthlessness.
Nothing that Redcloak does is self-glorifying. Instead he's willing to bear any loss to accomplish his goals, regardless if this is a bruised ego, the death of friends and allies and entertaining the whims of a homicidal maniac.
He suffered a lot from Tsukiko, but he only removed her once she became a genuine threat. While doing so in a manner that pretty much maximized the amount of poetic justice, that probably wasn't his purpose in choosing said method. Instead it was because it was efficient, because it perfectly exploited the weakness of his opponent, Tsukikos smug belief that the wights were her obedient children that would never hurt her.
Minimum of effort, maximum effect. That it was stylish was just a bonus.

Redcloak certainly had the potential to become a smug snake, but the death of Right-eye and his epiphany in the battle for Azure City has certainly taken him away from that path.
Instead he's steering right into the territory of magnificent bastardry. Of course we'll have to see if he's capable of exploiting Xykons ego and weaknesses all the way to the end.

Othniel Edden
2012-01-29, 11:37 PM
Poetic justice that someone that was so abused that she prefer undeads over humans is murdered by them? No. Ironic, I guess, but mostly ugly and horrible.
The strip was a real Evil moment, and a good reminder that OotS is more than just harmless jokes.

Given her repeated threats, and her own repeated abuses and defilement of both RC's goblinkind, and the people of Azure City, having the terror and victims she caused turn on her is definitely poetic justice. She created the means of her destruction, and she was punished for her vice.

Snails
2012-01-29, 11:37 PM
Who says he doesn't? There's been a lot of speculation that "This is business, Malack" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) may be a code as in "business before pleasure". Nale's not out of the woods yet.

Yes, I absolutely agree. Hey, in this comic being merely dead does not necessarily keep you from participating in the drama (Xykon, Eugene, Roy, Roy's mum & granddad, Soon, Shojo) but being "deader than dead" would be a real problem! ;)

It is entirely logical and just for Nale to meet his end here and now. Tarquin does not absolutely need Nale's cooperation, but it would certainly help while under time pressure. Using my "bardic skill" I would say it is inevitable that either Tarquin or Elan do the final deed.

Niknokitueu
2012-01-30, 09:07 AM
It was pretty satisfying, but also convinced me that Redcloak can't possibly be Lawful.

He didn't read her her wights!
*ducks thrown fruit*
Henh. He was, however, remaining true to his Priestly nature:

She did get her last Wights... :smallbiggrin:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

leakingpen
2012-01-30, 12:59 PM
I dunno. Watching Tsukiko die horribly like she deserves certainly inspires me... to keep reading :smallwink:

It was emotionally gratifying. She had it comin'.

Inspiring, Redcloak inspired villainy and proper ways to handle uppity biatches.

Ulysses WkAmil
2012-01-30, 04:25 PM
Henh. He was, however, remaining true to his Priestly nature:

She did get her last Wights... :smallbiggrin:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

*trembles hunched over* Such...Cory...JOKES!!... *collapses*

Flame of Anor
2012-01-31, 12:45 AM
Henh. He was, however, remaining true to his Priestly nature:

She did get her last Wights... :smallbiggrin:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Groooaaaaan.

Soylent Dave
2012-01-31, 02:36 AM
She was a smug little self-obsessed, self-deluded twit who was more annoying than Miko.

But the tragedy of her life is this: the biggest difference between her and Dark Mistress Shadowgale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) is that Shadowgale got the chance to grow up and become a real person.

This is, of course, a big part of the reason Hayley dislikes her so much - she reminds her too much of herself(-loathing).

Durmegil Guldur
2012-01-31, 08:30 AM
Not sorry to see the back of Tsukiko(sp?), and I can't think of a more fitting way for her to go out than by the hand(s) controlled by the guy who she's currently running her mouth to. I'm a little unnerved by Redcloak's depersonalisation of intelligent undead, but then, he IS supposed to be an evil character and probably has little to fear from a few wights if they break his control. I'm only sorry that he didn't Soul Bind her or find some other means of making Tsukiko's return unlikely.

Xzenu
2012-01-31, 08:43 PM
For me, Tsukiko was an interesting and fun character. I'll miss her.

The way she died truly fitted her story arc, and I guess her time had come.

As for Tsukiko being a horrible person, she was on team evil. They are all deeply deranged creepy monster. Tsukiko was coherent and developed in her delusions, and as such a far more interesting character than Xykon.

Math_Mage
2012-02-01, 01:40 PM
For me, Tsukiko was an interesting and fun character. I'll miss her.

The way she died truly fitted her story arc, and I guess her time had come.

As for Tsukiko being a horrible person, she was on team evil. They are all deeply deranged creepy monster. Tsukiko was coherent and developed in her delusions, and as such a far more interesting character than Xykon.

I disagree. The fact that the extent of Tsukiko's delusions could be neatly explained in one strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html)--heck, in one sentence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)--doesn't make her more "coherent and developed," it makes her shallow. Now, Xykon may also seem like a one-dimensional character--a For The Evulz Kill It With Fire Big Bad (*cough I beg forgiveness for the trope bomb cough*)--but the comic leaves numerous hints lying around that there's more to him than that (and outright shows it at the end of SoD).