Essentials for a Spellcaster: Arcane and the Divine

[Campbellk8105]

I'm opening this thread in hope to get a lot of useful information and tactics to use for spellcasters.

I do not play spellcasters too often, and recently I've gotten into a state of mind where I really would like to start playing them more.

So, getting to the point. I'd like to get as much useful information possible. The essentials. Feats, need to have spells, useful tactics/combos. Not just for arcane users, but divine as well.

3.5 is what i'm after since I do not play Pathfinder, and Dragon magazine is allowed on occasion. Still comment on things out of dragon mag though.

This also pertains to prestige classes, and how class abilities help each other out.

[NNescio]

First Commandment: Thou shalt not give up caster levels.

[legomaster00156]

Second Commandment: Thou shalt prestige, unless this contradicts the First Commandment.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Third Commandment: Thou shalt read (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) thine (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0).

[gallagher]

Fourth Commandment: Thou shalt specialize in line with the Second Commandment, so long as it complies with the First Commandment

[Flickerdart]

This is a very broad question. The two top tiers of classes in the game are largely composed of arcane and divine spellcasters. The options available to them are vast and staggering. Entire handbooks have been written on just a single class, school of spells or strategy.

NNescio is right on about the First Commandment of multiclassing. Nothing you can get from another class (usually) is worth losing spellcasting. However, you will almost always want to multiclass, simply because a caster class usually has no class features, and there are many PrCs that are very easy to enter and offer full casting.

Always be aware of the action economy. While you will easily have enough spells to get through many combats at higher levels, you can only get so many spells off per round. Having a ton of spell slots doesn't matter if you can't bring any of your spells to bear. For this reason, Quicken Spell is a very powerful feat, and so are other methods, such as Contingency and Celerity, of casting a spell whenever you feel like.

Direct damage is what the melee is for. Use spells that make them better at their job (buffs, the more targets for them, the better) or that make it easier for them to do their job (battlefield control and debuffs). If you want to disable opponents, use Save or Die, or Save or Lose spells - but always be careful to use spells that target the enemy's weak save, and keep your DCs high. While a successful SoD/SoL is miles ahead of a blast, even a failed blast usually does some damage. Dual-threat spells that both damage and inflict conditions are thus very valuable.

[Campbellk8105]

Does easy metamagic, practical metamagic, arcane thesis, and metamagic school focus stack?

As for the hand books, I am well aware of their existence. I was just hoping to get useful tidbits out of this.

Giving up spellcasting is of course, a big Faux Pas. I do know some general and common tactics used but this was not just for me, its for anyone needing and looking for an easy way to find out feats and combos without having to delve into the hand books and what not.

[Flickerdart]

Does easy metamagic, practical metamagic, arcane thesis, and metamagic school focus stack?
All meta reducers stack. Depending on which you use (they have different wording about how low they can reduce the cost), it is possible to mitigate all metamagic costs to 0 - however, you better have a good AC, because you're going to be dodging DMGs in short order.

[Hunter Killer]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not, but the MAJOR, MAJOR, MAJOR thing about 3.5 magic that traps most newbies is taking blasting spells over spells that have unique effects or status effects.

You ALWAYS want to focus on unique effects and status effects. Save-or-Die (Phantasmal Killer, Finger of Death, Disintegrate, etc...) and Save-or-Suck spells (Color Spray, Glitterdust, Grease, Hold Person, etc) will be better than things like Flaming Sphere 100% of the time.

Also... As a Wizard, you should probably do Focused Specialist or at least a Specialist. The best schools are Conjuration and Transmutation, but Abjuration can be really cool. The schools you drop normally go something like: Evocation, then Enchantment and/or Necromancy.

[0nimaru]

There is a lot out there, but what you're going to use depends on what kind of play you want.

Personal advice for playing a wizard: Blast, blast like there is no tomorrow, and if there was a tomorrow you would blast it. Don't use the reducers other than Metamagic School Focus or you'll get a book tossed at your face. I'd suggest banning two of Enchantment/Illusion/Necromancy. Always have a few general utility spells (fly, haste, dispel magic, teleport) prepped and be aware of your positioning. Enjoy the character and don't be angry at your party mates.


This isn't maximum power, but it is a cookie recipe for maximum fun.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm setting down a full list of commandments for convenience's sake. It's nice to have a concise list of guidelines to follow.

First Commandment: Thou shalt not give up caster levels. (NNescio)
Second Commandment: Thou shalt prestige, unless this contradicts the First Commandment. (legomaster00156)
Third Commandment: Thou shalt read (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) thine (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0). (GoodbyeSoberDay)
Fourth Commandment: Thou shalt specialize in line with the Second Commandment, so long as it complies with the First Commandment. (gallagher)
Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt always be aware of the action economy. (Flickerdart)
Sixth Commandment: Direct damage is what the melee is for. (Flickerdart)
Seventh Commandment: Thou shalt remember thine Divination spells and keep them handy. (Grey McBannert)

[Flickerdart]

Phantasmal Killer, Finger of Death, Disintegrate, etc...
It's funny because all of those are awful SoDs.

[Hunter Killer]

It's funny because all of those are awful SoDs.
I suppose.

Phantasmal lets the subject get two saves, and my bad on Disintegrate (It's not actually a Save-or-Die, although it does sometimes do enough damage so that things Just Die). Finger of Death is still decent, if you target something with a low Fort save.

Honestly, I'm AFB and those are all I could think of. I'd still rather have them than lots of Evocation spells. At least if they go through the subject is likely dead; Not always the case with Evocation stuff (Most of which allows saves).

[TroubleBrewing]

Not always the case with Evocation stuff (Most of which allows saves).

I don't disagree with your point (those 3 SoD's are better than Evocation stuff), but I'm confused about your reasoning. You seem to be suggesting that Evocation magic is inferior because most of it allows saves.

Isn't the problem with those Save or Die spells the fact that they allow saves?

[Flickerdart]

The problem with Finger of Death isn't the save - it's that [Death] (when Death Ward appeared 3 spell levels ago), only targets living beings and allows SR. Compare it to Flesh to Stone, Baleful Polymorph, the Dictum spells, Polymorph Any Object. Even Slay Living is better, because it comes two levels earlier when [Death] effects might still matter. Plane Shift to a hostile plane is also a good way of getting rid of dudes.

Against vulnerable targets, ability score damage is also a legitimate way of killing stuff, as are negative levels.

[TroubleBrewing]

Eighth Commandment: Thou shalt be familiar with thine enemies weaknesses and immunities.

Something like that?

[Endarire]

Ninth Commandment: Thou shalt remember that, in a party game, thy group wishes to play with thee. Thus, lest there be an emergency, thou shalt support thy party with thine power, not usurp thy party.

[TroubleBrewing]

I was trying to come up with a cleaner way to phrase Commandment 9, but all I came up with was "Thou shalt respect thine party, as they want to have fun too."

Maybe something more like "Thou shalt not be an ass to thine party, for buying pizza as penance for jerkish behavior gets expensive quickly"?

[jaybird]

Tenth Commandment: Remember thy Hit Die. If it be lower then d8, thy shalt consider staying behind the Big Stupid Fighter. If it be d8 or higher, thy shalt consider being the Big Stupid Fighter.

[gkathellar]

Tenth Commandment: Remember thy Hit Die. If it be lower then d8, thy shalt consider staying behind the Big Stupid Fighter. If it be d8 or higher, thy shalt consider being the Big Stupid Fighter.

Commandment 10-a: Below 6th level. After that point, hit dice don't matter very much.

[DigoDragon]

11th Commandment: Know what your spells do. One of my personal annoyances as a DM is when a caster decides to use a spell and then halts combat for several minutes because he has to look up the spell in the book to see what it does.

Now, I don't mean memorize what every spell does. :smallsmile: Have a prepared list or a stack of index cards that list the basic components of the spell, A summary of effects, and lastly the page number of which book to find it in if you need specifics.

For example, with my current Cleric, I may have a card like this:


Bless (Enchant, Compulsion, Mind effect) [level 1]
Components: V, S, DM
Cast Time: 1S
Range/Area: 50' burst, all allies in burst
Dur: 1 min/lvl
Save?: No
SR?: Yes (H)
Effect: +1 Moral on Attack, Save vs. fear effects. Counters Bane
Pg: PHB XX


Now I have all the basics of the Bless spell at my fingertips. To save your wrist, you can utilize a shorthand that works for you. For me, Casting time of "1S" is 1 Standard Action. I'd use FR for "1 Full Round", "SW" for Swift Action, etc.
And if at worst there's a detail missing, I got the book and page number right there so I know how to get to the spell quickly. :smallsmile:

[Hunter Killer]

You seem to be suggesting that Evocation magic is inferior because most of it allows saves.
No, I'm saying that Evocation spells generally only damage level-equivalent things moderately to heavily at the best of times. When the opponent saves (or has Improved Evasion), it's light to moderate (if no Evasion) or absolutely no damage (Evasion).

Even the bad Save-or-Dies are better because they outright kill things when they go through. The only exceptions to my rule are area-of-effect Evocation spells vs Mass Mooks, and I normally ban Evocation first so I replicate them through Shadow Evocation.

Fair point on the Death Ward, Flickerdart.

[sonofzeal]

12th Commandment: Thou shalt abide by thy peers' power levels. Yes, you can use Lesser Planar Ally for a Nightmare to get free Astral Projection at 7th level. No, you probably shouldn't, unless it's a high op game or an emergency. Actually...

13th Commandment: Thou shalt save a panic button or two. Full casters more than any other characters can afford to hold unexpected tricks in reserve. Throwing out your big guns every fight means enemies will account for it, and/or you'll win all the time and it won't be fun for your peers. But if you putter along on your mid-level spells and conserve your big guns, everyone else gets more chances to shine and you get to save the day when the chips are down.

[TroubleBrewing]

In line with #12, I present the following:

Commandment Thirteen: Infinite loops and other obvious shenanigans shall be reserved solely for theoretical application, unless the game and/or table in question encourages this sort of behavior.

[imneuromancer]

Even the bad Save-or-Dies are better because they outright kill things when they go through. The only exceptions to my rule are area-of-effect Evocation spells vs Mass Mooks.....

There are two places where evocation damage spells make sense:
* getting rid of tons of mooks with area of effect spells (and even this is better done with Conjuration spells....)

* If you make a MailMan build and you pump everything into increasing damage. You can make a build that does lots of damage, it just takes way more planning and resources than being God or Batman.

[jaybird]

There are two places where evocation damage spells make sense:
* getting rid of tons of mooks with area of effect spells (and even this is better done with Conjuration spells....)

* If you make a MailMan build and you pump everything into increasing damage. You can make a build that does lots of damage, it just takes way more planning and resources than being God or Batman.

Nope, both make more sense with Conj. Black Tentacles or Glitterdust will both absolutely cripple mooks with only one point of failure (Grapple/Will) vs 2 points (Reflex and damage roll) for, say, Fireball. Mailman is still better off with Conjuration for its Orbs, because even for crowd control you're better off with Conjuration.

The schools REALLY need fixing...

[TroubleBrewing]

The traditional Mailman build uses Sorcerer, which doesn't worry about banned schools.

[imneuromancer]

The traditional Mailman build uses Sorcerer, which doesn't worry about banned schools.

I thought we were talking about schools in general, not necessarily schools for banning with focused wizards. So, yeah, I agree: the Mailmain is best as a sorcerer, but really Rule 6 is still true.


Nope, both make more sense with Conj. Black Tentacles or Glitterdust will both absolutely cripple mooks with only one point of failure (Grapple/Will) vs 2 points (Reflex and damage roll) for, say, Fireball. Mailman is still better off with Conjuration for its Orbs, because even for crowd control you're better off with Conjuration.

The schools REALLY need fixing...

I agree. I think both are true: area of effect evocation spells "make sense" in dealing with mooks, but also that conjuration spells do as good a job (and are as optimized) as evocation spells, even then. Commandment 6 is still in effect.

[gkathellar]

The schools REALLY need fixing...

I'd say the quick fix is to merge Enchantment with Illusion, and Evocation with Conjuration. Then move any spell that deals with biology, positive energy or negative energy in any way over to Necromancy. With only six schools, the decision to go Specialist or Focused Specialist becomes a much harsher one.

[motoko's ghost]

If your going to use that many metamagic reducers, you might try irresistable spell from kingdoms of kalamar, its +4 and has wierd pre-reqs but it makes any spell you apply it to no-save, save or dies become dies:smallamused:(this makes blasting and disintigrate,etc actually decent choices)

[SamBurke]

I'd say the quick fix is to merge Enchantment with Illusion, and Evocation with Conjuration. Then move any spell that deals with biology, positive energy or negative energy in any way over to Necromancy. With only six schools, the decision to go Specialist or Focused Specialist becomes a much harsher one.

Still leaves Enchantment/Illusion a little rough, unless someone's creative.

That said, I'd still focus on it.

[imneuromancer]

I'd say the quick fix is to merge Enchantment with Illusion, and Evocation with Conjuration. Then move any spell that deals with biology, positive energy or negative energy in any way over to Necromancy. With only six schools, the decision to go Specialist or Focused Specialist becomes a much harsher one.

Or just give all wizards and sorcerers a "domain" and "domain spell" of one school of magic and be done with it.

Still doesn't make evocation any better, but at least you aren't hurting yourself by being an "evoker".

[Flickerdart]

If your going to use that many metamagic reducers, you might try irresistable spell from kingdoms of kalamar, its +4 and has wierd pre-reqs but it makes any spell you apply it to no-save, save or dies become dies:smallamused:(this makes blasting and disintigrate,etc actually decent choices)
And this is why 3rd party books are, by and large, terrible.

[sreservoir]

And this is why 3rd party books are, by and large, terrible.

no, this is more why books that aren't properly tedited are terrible.

there are quite good 3rd-party books. there are quite terrible 1st-party books. there is, to be sure, probably a higher concentration of terrible books among the 3rd-party.

[FearlessGnome]

If your going to use that many metamagic reducers, you might try irresistable spell from kingdoms of kalamar, its +4 and has wierd pre-reqs but it makes any spell you apply it to no-save, save or dies become dies:smallamused:(this makes blasting and disintigrate,etc actually decent choices)

Errata changed that. It now 'only' gives +10 to the DC. Heighten would have given +4, and wouldn't require the prereqs. It's still a powerful feat, but theres' now a case to be made for it not deserving instant banning.

[motoko's ghost]

Errata changed that. It now 'only' gives +10 to the DC. Heighten would have given +4, and wouldn't require the prereqs. It's still a powerful feat, but theres' now a case to be made for it not deserving instant banning.

Ah well, it was fun while it lasted:smalltongue: