Fixing Fighters (And ExPers) begins with...

[visigani]

Allowing them to break (or at least dramatically bend) the action economy. Because ExPers are at such a significant disadvantage against SuPers granting them greater power over the action economy (something no SuPer has significant domain over inherently).

[Killer Angel]

Breaking action economy, while doing the usual fighter things, is still of little help...

[visigani]

Using the action economy as a starting place.

For example, each +5 BAB (which normally allows for an additional attack) would allow the fighter to engage in some other action.

The usual fightery things equals swing a sword. However, by granting them improved action economy you grant them access to more things to do in any given turn in addition to swinging the sword. Coating their sword with poison, chugging a potion, chucking a dagger at a ranged opponent and then making a full attack on another one.

[TroubleBrewing]

That isn't the problem. The problem is a lack of suitable answers to a variety of complex problems.

You can't solve every problem by hitting it with something pointy and metallic.

Being able to hit everything with pointy metal stuff faster doesn't fix that issue.

[visigani]

That isn't the problem. The problem is a lack of suitable answers to a variety of complex problems.

You can't solve every problem by hitting it with something pointy and metallic.

Being able to hit everything with pointy metal stuff faster doesn't fix that issue.



Again, you're not getting it.

In a single round typically the fighters "best answer" is "hit it with a stick".

With my proposed solution the fighter can ALSO address things in a secondary and tertiary means.

Will this completely adjust the fighter/wizard problems? No. But it's an excellent starting point.

A fighter able to intimidate an opponent before he full attack actions him, for example. Think creatively here.

If a Fighter had four standard actions per round, what could he do with them?

[TroubleBrewing]

Again, you're not getting it.

In a single round typically the fighters "best answer" is "hit it with a stick".

With my proposed solution the fighter can ALSO address things in a secondary and tertiary means.

Will this completely adjust the fighter/wizard problems? No. But it's an excellent starting point.

A fighter able to intimidate an opponent before he full attack actions him, for example. Think creatively here.

I get exactly what you're saying, and I'm telling you that it doesn't do what you think it does. Here, let me demonstrate.


The usual fightery things equals swing a sword. However, by granting them improved action economy you grant them access to more things to do in any given turn in addition to swinging the sword. Coating their sword with poison Making their pointy bit of metal slightly different, chugging a potion making themselves better at swinging the pointy metal thing, chucking a dagger at a ranged opponent and then making a full attack on another one hitting two different bad things with two different pointy metal things.

It's all just different names for the same answer. A fighter cannot solve any problems that involve flight or invisibility by hitting it more times with his pointy metal thingy.


If a Fighter had four standard actions per round, what could he do with them?

This is a good question. The most obvious answer is UMD or some variant on that, but that doesn't solve the problem. When you're trying to make X as good as Y, and the answer is "make X more like Y", you haven't solved anything.

[Ossian]

Again, you're not getting it.

In a single round typically the fighters "best answer" is "hit it with a stick".

With my proposed solution the fighter can ALSO address things in a secondary and tertiary means.

Will this completely adjust the fighter/wizard problems? No. But it's an excellent starting point.

A fighter able to intimidate an opponent before he full attack actions him, for example. Think creatively here.

If a Fighter had four standard actions per round, what could he do with them?

I like it. In fact, I don t think that the gap between WIZ and FTR should be closed entirely. It's a flavour thing, of course, but it gives so many more roleplay angles. Wave of the hand and arcane syllables = fix the problem, 99% success

Guts and Guile = fix the problem with Awesome (but less likely to succeed)

Also, to answer your question (if a fighter had four standard actions...) the answer could be this

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_svjXYAAiFeU/TTgw8WGkjII/AAAAAAAAAVw/I3fkqB-cHEc/s1600/lethal-weapon.jpg

or

http://d3ds4oy7g1wrqq.cloudfront.net/snakesolido/myfiles/john%20mclane%20-encuesta-.jpg

[visigani]

I get exactly what you're saying, and I'm telling you that it doesn't do what you think it does. Here, let me demonstrate.



It's all just different names for the same answer. A fighter cannot solve any problems that involve flight or invisibility by hitting it more times with his pointy metal thingy.



This is a good question. The most obvious answer is UMD or some variant on that, but that doesn't solve the problem. When you're trying to make X as good as Y, and the answer is "make X more like Y", you haven't solved anything.



Well your contention is that everything the fighter does that isn't swinging a sword makes them a little more wizardly.

Is giving a Fighter an extra opportunity to chuck a tanglefoot bag... does that make them wizardly? No. Anyone can chuck a tanglefoot bag. How about an extra chance to chug an enlarge potion?

The in herent limitations to the ExPers is that their abilities are almost all internal and don't translate well externally.

Rage, for example, increases damage, but only through translation. A fireball does damage without translation.

The fighters "best option" is to stick it with the pointy thing. Just like the Wizards "best option" might be to hurl a fireball. However, with this the fighter could stick it with the pointy thing, chuck the tanglefoot bag, and chug a healing potion.

Overall they have far more impact on the field of battle than they otherwise would.

[TroubleBrewing]

Is giving a Fighter an extra opportunity to chuck a tanglefoot bag cast entangle... does that make them wizardly? No. Anyone can chuck a tanglefoot bag cast entangle. How about an extra chance to chug cast an enlarge potion person?

Look up some old discussions on the Giacomo Monk. This argument surfaced frequently.


Overall they have far more impact on the field of battle than they otherwise would.

I disagree. Just because they can now waste more resources in the form of consumables does not make them any better.

In fact, the class you've been describing isn't an upgraded Fighter, it's an Artificer who, inexplicably, has lost his ability to create items in favor of full BAB and a butt load of bonus feats he doesn't want or need.

[Killer Angel]

Is giving a Fighter an extra opportunity to chuck a tanglefoot bag... does that make them wizardly? No. Anyone can chuck a tanglefoot bag. How about an extra chance to chug an enlarge potion?


THe fact is: when the enemy is doing things you can't counter, or when there are enviromental barriers you cannot bypass, the fact that you can do 2 useless things instead of one, is of no help.



Just like the Wizards "best option" might be to hurl a fireball.


Very rarely and under unusual circumstances.



Overall they have far more impact on the field of battle than they otherwise would.

Against basic mooks, yes. Sadly, in the best case and in a specific scenario, this only mitigates the fighter's issue. 'cause number of actions is not the problem.

[visigani]

Look up some old discussions on the Giacomo Monk. This argument surfaced frequently.



I disagree. Just because they can now waste more resources in the form of consumables does not make them any better.

In fact, the class you've been describing isn't an upgraded Fighter, it's an Artificer who, inexplicably, has lost his ability to create items in favor of full BAB and a butt load of bonus feats he doesn't want or need.


Oh, clever!

Then I suspect a Warlock is nothing more than a Sorcerer who picked up a few extra class features and some low level spells they can cast a lot yet inexplicably lost all access to 9th level spells and their familiar.

"Waste Consumables". Right. That consumed potion means the Cleric doesn't have to dash over and heal you asap. See the ripple? before the Fighter had two choices. Swing the stick or drink the potion. Now the fighter can swing the stick AND drink the potion.

Why you're not grasping the power inherent to this I'm not sure. Why you're seeking to diminish "Cast Entangle" while entirely missing the point (Dramatically increase the number of options you have in a given round) is a mystery.

You should put less effort into trying to be witty and put more effort in trying to be constructive.

Is a Wizard who can cast 4 spells in a round more powerful than a wizard who can cast 1 spell? Yes. Does this make him less of a Wizard?

How about this? If the Wizard can still only cast a single spell, but do three other things (drink potion, chuck tanglefoot, hurl dagger, make a skill check) equal to a wizard who can only cast a single spell or greater than a wizard who can only cast a single spell?

[visigani]

THe fact is: when the enemy is doing things you can't counter, or when there are enviromental barriers you cannot bypass, the fact that you can do 2 useless things instead of one, is of no help.



Very rarely and under unusual circumstances.



Against basic mooks, yes. Sadly, in the best case and in a specific scenario, this only mitigates the fighter's issue. 'cause number of actions is not the problem.


The Fighters job ISN'T to overcome environmental barriers, or counter strange and bizarre circumstances.

Their purpose is to break things and kill people.

And who do you spend the vast majority of your time killing in this game? Mooks.

[Eldan]

And that would achieve what, on it's own? Here's a thought example:

The fighter has 10'000 full attacks per turn and can move 60 miles in six seconds.

The wizard is hanging out in his private demiplane.

The problem is not number of actions. It's what you can do with them.

[visigani]

And that would achieve what, on it's own? Here's a thought example:

The fighter has 10'000 full attacks per turn and can move 60 miles in six seconds.

The wizard is hanging out in his private demiplane.

The problem is not number of actions. It's what you can do with them.



Again... and again... and again... and again... and I'll explain it again...

If the Fighter has multiple actions in a given round he doesn't NEED to take all of them to swing at the bad guy... he can DO OTHER THINGS... activate a magic item, consume a potion, use a skill, duck behind cover, aid an ally, and whatever else you can dream up.

It's well and good a Wizard can have his own demiplane. Go him. But can he decapitate his foe, throw his friend a heal potion and step in front of a foe intent on bullrushing said wizard? In a single round? No.

What I'm proposing dramatically increases the ExPers fluidity on the battlefield and makes them far more useful.

The Fighter is not and CANNOT be the guy to solve esoteric problems. It simply doesn't work that way.

What he CAN be is invaluable on the battlefield in any number of ways.

An entire system could be setup based on this single premise.

[Krazzman]

The best starting point to enhance Fighters is to give them more to do than just "I hit it" or "I hit it many times with more stuff".

The best way is to give them Versatility (is that written that way?) in the form of an ALREADY introduced system. Yes some might say ToB and it's Maneuver and Stance system is OP (because they don't know better) but it is the best starting point to do what you want. If you give the "normal" martials (Paladin, Ranger, Monk, Rogue, Barbarian, Fighter and so on) some Maneuverschools, they will perform better.

A fighter could choose "any 2 schools" and be a bit better performing thanks to the new versatility of having a shadow step or what the hell it is called.

The thing with the extra Standard-Action is, you could even introduce a new combat feat, that goes: "as Part of an attack action you can use an Item with an standard action activation."

(Server seems to hate me today took forever to load this post...)

[Killer Angel]

The Fighters job ISN'T to overcome environmental barriers, or counter strange and bizarre circumstances.


During combat? yes. Not all the combats will be on nice plains / corridors.
Flying dragons with dispel magic, teleporting demons, entangling fey and so on...
I concede that it would be better than nothing, but the main problems still remain.



It's well and good a Wizard can have his own demiplane. Go him. But can he decapitate his foe, throw his friend a heal potion and step in front of a foe intent on bullrushing said wizard? In a single round? No.


The decapitating part is done by the planarbinded creature, the foe isn't bullrushing anyone through that wall of force, and guess who's the friend in need of the healing potion?

[Tenno Seremel]

I thought Psions were into action economy thing.

[Eldan]

The problem is this: even given an infinite amount of actions, there's enormous numbers of problems a fighter can not solve. These start to slowly turn up around level 5, normally, and only increase in number as you go up.

Think of, say, shadows encountered at level 3. The fighter has no magic weapon. How will he deail with them?

By using a magic item, you say. However, that magic item has two problems: first of all, a wizard made it. The fighter is not using his inherent power, he is borrowing the wizard's. Second, it costs money. The fighter is draining a precious resource. He is paying the wizard for the privilege of being relevant.

[sonofzeal]

The problem is this: even given an infinite amount of actions, there's enormous numbers of problems a fighter can not solve. These start to slowly turn up around level 5, normally, and only increase in number as you go up.

Think of, say, shadows encountered at level 3. The fighter has no magic weapon. How will he deail with them?

By using a magic item, you say. However, that magic item has two problems: first of all, a wizard made it. The fighter is not using his inherent power, he is borrowing the wizard's. Second, it costs money. The fighter is draining a precious resource. He is paying the wizard for the privilege of being relevant.
Eh... It's okay for characters to have occasional situations they can't handle, as long as situations they can are common enough.


But yes. Rather than give extra actions, I'd rather increase their options. A Fighter of sufficient level might be able to treat any weapon/armor they use as Ghost Touch, or Throwing, or Distance, or Nimble. Stuff that usually isn't worth the price tag, but lets them handle a broader array of situations.

[Eldan]

BUt that's the main problem, I think. How many enemies at level 15 can fly, or teleport, or cast spells, or become incorporeal? A majority, in all likelihood, given how many of them are outsiders.

[TroubleBrewing]

A majority, in all likelihood, given how many of them are outsiders.

Or Elementals or Abberations with SLA's, or powerful Undead, or Dragons with casting equal to or better than the party's... The list goes on.

The Fighter can drink 10,000 potions a round, but at the end of the day, if he's using this tactic, he's only as good as whoever is making the potions for him.

The Fighter himself is not powerful, he's just better at cribbing power from characters who, at this point, have to wonder why they even want him around. All he does is drink their beer potions, play the guitar badly, crash on their futon, and whine about being less cool than the other kids on campus.



A fighter could choose "any 2 schools" and be a bit better performing thanks to the new versatility of having a shadow step or what the hell it is called.

If you're going to go this far, you may as well just toss out the Fighter entirely and just change the name of the Warblade.

"Warblade" is a stupid name anyway.

[sonofzeal]

BUt that's the main problem, I think. How many enemies at level 15 can fly, or teleport, or cast spells, or become incorporeal? A majority, in all likelihood, given how many of them are outsiders.
What problem, that spellcasters are spellcasters? Everyone knows that. It isn't adding anything to the discussion. We get that no Fighter is matching a Genesis'd Astral Projecting Wizard. Let's think more practically.

Flight is one thing no (Ex) class is going to be doing under their own power any time soon, barring a pair of wings sprouting from their back. The Fighter has two options - buying an item, collaborating with the team, or ranged attacks. Yadda yadda, we know the first two aren't strictly "under his own power", but in a normal high level gaming group neither is impractical or implausible. And and the third is why I added "Throwing" and "Distance" to my list. Ranged attacks tend not to deal sufficient damage, but that's generally a problem of numbers not being high enough, and numbers can be made higher quite easily. Heck, the OP's idea works here - if the Fighter can launch a dozen shots a turn, and use the right mix of bow and arrow to bypass DR, that could be quite effective against a flier.

Teleporting, well, an enemy who can Teleport can get away from most people. That's not a Fighter problem, that's a Teleport problem, and we're talking about Fighters here. Leave it for a different thread.

Incorporeality is a more significant one. Low level incorporeal creatures tend to be overpowered for their CR against parties of that level. It improves over time, but is still an issue. That's why I suggested letting Fighters eventually access Ghost Touch for weapons and armor eventually. And the OP's suggestion works here too - assuming a magic weapon (safe, after lvl 5 or so), if the Fighter can make a dozen attacks in their turn, even if half of them miss they're still doing quite a lot.

[TheMeMan]

I'm gonna Chime in and side, with reservation, with the OP.

Allowing the Fighter to essentially break action economy would be an interesting way to go, for a start. It would by no means bring them up to par with any of the ToB classes(A good goal), or the spellcasters(Who, IMO, are not where the aim should be at all). However, it would at the very least give them their own unique class ability to work from. That said, as other have mentioned, better options are necessary. I contend that a huge increase in the Fighter's Bonus feat list would help(Although this is small potatoes).

As for ToB, although I'm a bit iffy on the idea of giving maneuvers to the fighter, Not due to any sense of brokeness or overpower, but rather because it once again draws from making something a bit unique out of the fighter. That said it is absolutely necessary to do so.

So, here's the idea with ToB involved: The Fighter gains a relatively small pool of maneuvers and stances known (And readied as well), lower than even the warblade. However, they may choose from any Discipline available, and do not have restrictions.

This, coupled with an increased action economy, with an greatly expanded Fighter Feat list(With the standard Fighter chassis) would create something that has it's own unique flair, but still represents what the fighter should be (An all-around strong warrior type who has many options available, but isn't as strong as an individual who specializes in any given area). Note, this is not bringing them up anywhere near casters, which I contend should not be the thought-process.

Thoughts?

[Killer Angel]

Let's think more practically.

Flight is one thing no (Ex) class is going to be doing under their own power any time soon, barring a pair of wings sprouting from their back. The Fighter has two options - buying an item, collaborating with the team, or ranged attacks. (snip)
Heck, the OP's idea works here - if the Fighter can launch a dozen shots a turn, and use the right mix of bow and arrow to bypass DR, that could be quite effective against a flier.


Incorporeality. (snip). And the OP's suggestion works here too - assuming a magic weapon (safe, after lvl 5 or so), if the Fighter can make a dozen attacks in their turn, even if half of them miss they're still doing quite a lot.

But this is different from the OP's point, which is that those extra actions should be used for something more effective than "hit more", such as drink potions, and so on (which, BTW, even if effective, tend to dig through fighter's resources at an alarming speed)
This way, you're simply giving more iterative attacks.

Wanna resolve something? give the fighter some power, even if based on the same "hit things".
Pick the awful arcane archer... if the chassis of the fighter could simply include its own version of enhance arrow, seeker arrow, phase arrows and so on, that alone would be more useful.

[sonofzeal]

But this is different from the OP's point. THose extra actions should be used for something more effective than "hit more", such as drink potions, and so on (which, BTW, even if effective, tend to dig trough fighter's resources at an alarming speed)
This way, you're simply giving more iterative attacks.

Wanna resolve something? give the fighter some power, even if based on the same "hit things".
Pick the awful arcane archer... if the chassis of the fighter could simply include its own version of enhance arrow, seeker arrow, phase arrows and so on, that alone would be more useful.
Oh, I do agree entirely. I was responding there to a specific post, which seemed to be criticizing my previous one:


I'd rather increase their options. A Fighter of sufficient level might be able to treat any weapon/armor they use as Ghost Touch, or Throwing, or Distance, or Nimble. Stuff that usually isn't worth the price tag, but lets them handle a broader array of situations.

That sounds pretty much exactly like what you're suggesting.

[Killer Angel]

Oh, I do agree entirely. I was responding there to a specific post, which seemed to be criticizing my previous one:

That sounds pretty much exactly like what you're suggesting.

eheh... I missed your previous post and read only the last one. :smallwink:
Apparently, we have a solid agreement.

[candycorn]

Again... and again... and again... and again... and I'll explain it again...

If the Fighter has multiple actions in a given round he doesn't NEED to take all of them to swing at the bad guy... he can DO OTHER THINGS... activate a magic item, consume a potion, use a skill, duck behind cover, aid an ally, and whatever else you can dream up.

It's well and good a Wizard can have his own demiplane. Go him. But can he decapitate his foe, throw his friend a heal potion and step in front of a foe intent on bullrushing said wizard? In a single round? No.

What I'm proposing dramatically increases the ExPers fluidity on the battlefield and makes them far more useful.

The Fighter is not and CANNOT be the guy to solve esoteric problems. It simply doesn't work that way.

What he CAN be is invaluable on the battlefield in any number of ways.

You're missing the point. What he CAN be is invaluable on a battlefield that requires only sub-par and inefficient solutions to the problem.

Let's assume that potion is a Cure Serious Wounds. 3d8+5 hp, average 18-19 hp, for 750gp. At any level that you can comfortably afford this, it will simply not be an effective choice, especially considering it provokes an AoO. Look at a Cloud giant (CR 11). 4d6+18, per hit, without using its Power Attack feat. You're healing half of one hit. Effective? No.

Tanglefoot bag against this? Nope. Huge creatures are unaffected. Effective? No.

The problem is you're pulling out one solution that is par (the pointy stick), and many that are sub-par. That doesn't fix anything. To fix the fighter, he would need to contribute in a meaningful way in a wide variety of combat situations.

He doesn't need an I win button, but he DOES need a bag of tricks that is actually useful. Potions and alchemical items just don't cut it.

This is the way they went with Tome of Battle. They gave martial characters a deeper bag of tricks. It was generally well received. Magic of Incarnum did the same thing. Also, well received.

But giving a character actions is only good if that character has something meaningful to do. A wizard that casts 4 spells a round is an unholy terror, because each of those spells has the ability to dramatically impact the battlefield... A wizard that can cast 4 cantrips per round? Not so much. The quality of the actions taken determine the value of the additional actions.

Even if you give a fighter quantity, it doesn't have quality.

[Eldan]

Now if the game had a better alchemy system...

The fighter would still basically be burning party treasure. But there have been some very interesting homebrew alchemicals around.

[Ravens_cry]

It's all just different names for the same answer. A fighter cannot solve any problems that involve flight or invisibility by hitting it more times with his pointy metal thingy.

Sure he can. He can take his long, wooden (preferably a composite of wood, sinew and horn) thing with a string, and start launching short wooden things with feathers at one end and a little pointy metal bit at the other with it. If they got the funds, even a set of specialized magic little ones might be in order.
Invisibility is a tougher nut I admit.

[gkathellar]

Now if the game had a better alchemy system...

Then a character whose primary use was alchemy would be an alchemist or an artificer, not a fighter.

[Nohwl]

If a Fighter had four standard actions per round, what could he do with them?

nothing nearly as good as the gish with 4 standard actions.

[gkathellar]

nothing nearly as good as the gish with 4 standard actions.

OH SNAP.

:smallcool:

YEEEEAAH.

Or even the gish with 2 standard actions, in all seriousness. Which is doable with Swiftblade, yeah.

[Clawhound]

D&D has a very time-honored mechanic of beating up opponents and taking their stuff. That's where magic items come from. I have never been in a D&D game where this has not been true. This structure is present from the first edition of D&D onward. As for items, the argument "a wizard made them" is a fluff argument. Don't mix fluff arguments with mechanics.

I have never seen a D&D game where hitting things does not work 90%+ of the time. By the rules, hitting things with pointy sticks until they die is a very reliable tactic. Some things are harder to hit than others, but in most games those are rare creatures. Almost everything dies due to massive trauma inflicted by weapons. I have rarely seen an encounter where this has not been true.

As for action economy, I would simply allow iterative attacks on a standard action. That way, all melee still have a move actions.

[mikau013]

The real problem for me with fighters isn't their combat efficiency, they can with some optimization be very effective combatants.

The real problem is the out of combat stuff. They got nothing there, while the wizard can just divine something or teleport the group etc.

They tried to fix this partially in ToB by giving them 'martial spells' but in my experience that gives a total different playstyle and also focusses a lot on the combat minigame.

Maybe it just isn't possible for the fighter to be equal and not use magic I guess. But making the fighter effective in combat is really easy. Out of combat is where the real problems lie.

[Clawhound]

I consider OOC an archetype problem.

The fighter is just a dude? That is the design.

In fantasy, the fighter is the guy who winds up being king. When he talks, people listen. They listen because his is strong. He commands armies. He negotiates truces. You get none of that dynamic with the current class.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I consider OOC an archetype problem.

The fighter is just a dude? That is the design.

In fantasy, the fighter is the guy who winds up being king. When he talks, people listen. They listen because his is strong. He commands armies. He negotiates truces. You get none of that dynamic with the current class.

The wizard is perfectly good at being a king, too, and an army general. Better, actually, since he's a god-king and has knowledge skills and can probably afford to put some points into diplomacy and is smart enough to manage a kingdom too. More standard actions doesn't let the fighter do this.

Spellcasters making the magic items is not fluff. Spellcasters are the only ones who can take the magic item creation feats.

[gkathellar]

In fantasy, the fighter is the guy who winds up being king. When he talks, people listen. They listen because his is strong. He commands armies. He negotiates truces. You get none of that dynamic with the current class.

The problem being that not every fighter fits this archetype, and the class has to be generic enough to fit those that don't.

[Clawhound]

The problem being that not every fighter fits this archetype, and the class has to be generic enough to fit those that don't.

True, a fighter doesn't HAVE to go in that direction, but I am saying that being the party face is well within genre.

And true, wizards can be god-kings. That does not invalidate the fighter's potential as the party face.

A big problem for Fighter is that there's always another class that does it better. So where can we go from here? We could throw our hands up and give up, but that's not a fun option. This is why I began with genre. What roles in genre does fighters fill that we haven't recognized. The fighter doesn't need to do something best, he just needs to do something best within his own party.

[T.G. Oskar]

...making them better pot-chuggers?

Jokes aside (although this idea isn't really meant as a joke), trying to debate ways to make Fighters better than Wizards is pretty futile because of how the system is designed. However, there ARE things that I find a bit out of place.

For example: why spellcasters MUST be the only ones that create magic items? That has forever irked me, since a proper Wizard won't get item creation feats because it interferes with its metamagic and other nifty feats they could take (maybe not reserve feats, but Arcane Thesis isn't exactly a metamagic feat but rather a metamagic modifier). If the concept of magic item creation could be opened to other people rather than spellcasters, you could reduce to an extent some of the hegemony of spellcasters in the game, which do practically everything.

Another, which I've mentioned at times, is that some spells should be rituals or incantations, which spellcasters could do better but that are open to anybody. Stuff like Wish, Gate, Planar Ally/Binding and Teleport (and Teleportation Circle) should be rituals (and 4e, oddly, went into that area), in order to reduce the power of spellcasters a bit further.

A distant third is that spellcasters dabble into EVERYTHING. Really. The only thing they don't dabble is martial maneuvers, and that is debatable (Heroics), but they dabble in Incarnum (Incarnum Spellshaping), psionics (the spells and domains in the XPH, including Mental Pinnacle that makes you a tem-Psion), and even Truenaming (the Truename spells). The transparency rules are fine, but the spells just go too deep into transparency that it's not funny.

But, the big problem is that all of these suggestions end up in the realm of homebrewing and houseruling. The official stance of WotC up until the forthcoming of 4e was "spellcasters can do everything", which severely limits the Fighter.

Working on what the Fighter should do:

One common archetype is that of Conan, whom ends up being a king but still has the heart of a warrior. Barbarians were meant to represent them, but then came "BY CROM!!" (aka Iron Heart Surge) and then Warblades just took that spot.
Military leaders, which should have been the Marshal schtick, but White Raven does better. Oddly enough, they didn't support the Marshal enough, adding new auras, or maybe redoing the class in Heroes of Battle (which was THEIR sourcebook)
The elite soldier, usually the knight (represented by the Knight class, as the Paladin really represents the "virtuous knight and divine warrior" archetype), the samurai (woefully represented in CW Samurai and a bit closer with OA Samurai, but then again we get Warblade), and many of the other elite troops (Cataphract, Hoplites, Legionnaire, Cavalier, etc.)
Mundane ranged combatant, such as the English Longbowman. A fighter, oddly enough, could do this pretty well by feats alone, but the problem lies not in the feats, but how ranged is handled. Had the arrows been cheaper (not 4000 gp for a 30-stack of +1 flaming arrows), ranged combat could easily be useful.

Problem is, the archetypes you see here are, most often, best geared for mundane challenges, while the D&D heroes are meant to face supernatural challenges (the battle with the iconic dragon in the iconic dungeon, for example). To handle those supernatural challenges, you need either magic items (which are done by spellcasters instead of master blacksmiths whose existence is meant to refine their art for those who dare not take the grimoire) or supernatural abilities, which ExPers sorely lack.

I'd rather go, instead of breaking action economy, with making Fighter levels worthwhile. Sure, initiator levels ARE a start, but they are self-contained. Why not have initiator level, say, count as an effective caster level when, say, chugging a pot? Or, that when you wield a magic weapon, it deals extra damage based on your initiator level (much like what 4e magic weapons do, oddly enough)? It still won't be enough, but it makes those items much more useful in the hands of the "mundanes" rather than a waste of resources. And even then, it wouldn't be the end-all-be-all of it: some people suggest scaling feats; why not limit them by initiator level and make them exclusive to martial classes? Skill-monkeys could use their skill ranks for those feats related to skills, for example.

Consider how the OP's idea, instead of an isolated fix, could be part of an integrated fix. After all, isn't the idea "fixing (X) begins with..." suggests that it's a part of a much bigger whole, but the comments and bashes are focused on bashing that part without watching how it could influence the whole. Or so I perceive.

[kulosle]

Okay I have a few points and suggestions.
1) We are not trying to make a fighter a tier 1 class at best we're aiming for high 3 to a low 2
2) Extra actions could also be used for trips, sunders, bull rushing, grappling, disarming, etc. This does offer more battle field control and is very nice.
3) Fighters should be the one who is the best at the all of these things. Some scaling bonus to these would be nice to have.
4) I've long thought the kensia is what the fighter was suppose to be from the beginning well not exactly but I would like to see it turned into a base class.
5) I like the idea of creating fighter feats that say things along the lines of "as part of an attack a fighter can also make a disarm check (or other special actions)." This would be the classing fighter knocks your sword out of your hand with his sword. Or swinging his sword in your knee. Or breaking threw your sword and still hitting you in the chest.
6) For a long time our group has been trying to make a Renown system. "Look its Sven he has more scars then you have hairs." Instant respect. As opposed to a wizard who spends the first half of his life in a school would have far less.

[gkathellar]

Okay I have a few points and suggestions.
1) We are not trying to make a fighter a tier 1 class at best we're aiming for high 3 to a low 2
2) Extra actions could also be used for trips, sunders, bull rushing, grappling, disarming, etc. This does offer more battle field control and is very nice.
3) Fighters should be the one who is the best at the all of these things. Some scaling bonus to these would be nice to have.
4) I've long thought the kensia is what the fighter was suppose to be from the beginning well not exactly but I would like to see it turned into a base class.
5) I like the idea of creating fighter feats that say things along the lines of "as part of an attack a fighter can also make a disarm check (or other special actions)." This would be the classing fighter knocks your sword out of your hand with his sword. Or swinging his sword in your knee. Or breaking threw your sword and still hitting you in the chest.
6) For a long time our group has been trying to make a Renown system. "Look its Sven he has more scars then you have hairs." Instant respect. As opposed to a wizard who spends the first half of his life in a school would have far less.

Got you covered. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12460617&postcount=2)

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's another one!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's a few ideas of my own...

The problems for Fighters, as I see the problem, are as follows:

1) They are dependent on magic at any level after the first. They require magic weapons, armor, and other gear to be able to effectively hit things.

2) They cannot effectively threaten an ever increasing set of monsters, due to clever tactics (i.e. Flight, Invisibility, etc...)

3) They lack versatility in what they can do. They beat on things. And that's about it.

So, here's a proposed solution:

1) Similar to the OA Samurai, Fighters can augment their own weapons without needing magic. However, I'm going to go with something more like the Deepsoul Forgemaster fluff... anything they make, they can make better, and effectively magical.

2) This has several solutions. First would be to give Fighters actual class abilities other than feats which would give them a heightened sense of awareness (start with Blindsense, then move up to Blindsight and Tremorsense) to deal with invisibility. For flight... find a way to make the archery system better, and a Fighter to be able to be effective at archery AND at beating on things.

3) This is a facet of the game mechanics. However, he can do things.

He can pick up Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered to lockdown. It's debatable as to being immune to mind affecting actually working on this or not, since it's not a magical fear effect. About the only things explicitly immune to it are mindless, or immune to fear, since it isn't one of the listed fear attacks. For this to become actually effective, simply rule that being immune to mind-affecting does NOT grant immunity to it, and you have a viable lockdown tactic.

He can do tripping. It's a little more feat intensive, but it's not like he doesn't have a ton of feats to spare anyways. Doesn't work against flying opponents, but at least it works well enough against enough things that it is viable. How about make a rule that if you trip something flying, it starts falling? Or give them a feat option to do this.

Give him more combat options. Make sure you preface them with 'as an attack action'. Let them apply status effects.

Or... yanno... use ToB, and not have to deal with all the mess.

[Hiro Protagonest]

6) For a long time our group has been trying to make a Renown system. "Look its Sven he has more scars then you have hairs." Instant respect. As opposed to a wizard who spends the first half of his life in a school would have far less.

"Look, it's Horace, he's spent his entire life devoted to Heironeous. He can wield god-like power, but he's kind and charitable too."

"Look, it's Hector, he spent five years studying hard under a wizard before leaving to find magical secrets in ancient ruins and among the elves and dragons. He now wields great power. Guess he's an exemplar of 'practice makes perfect' and 'luck favors the bold', huh?"

[Rubik]

Sure he can. He can take his long, wooden (preferably a composite of wood, sinew and horn) thing with a string, and start launching short wooden things with feathers at one end and a little pointy metal bit at the other with it. If they got the funds, even a set of specialized magic little ones might be in order.
Invisibility is a tougher nut I admit.http://shamusyoung.mu.nu/images/comic_lotr59a.jpghttp://shamusyoung.mu.nu/images/comic_lotr59b.jpg