American Gods

[Ashtagon]

Two disclaimers first...

1 - I am well aware of the Gaiman novel American Gods. This thread is not about that book, nor is that book really relevant to this thread.

2 - I am aware of the "no RL religion" rule here. I have no interest in discussing RL religion in this thread, nor will I acknowledge any attempt to raise the topic in this thread, except to report it.

So what I am looking for are the 'ideals' and 'personifications' that could be identified as D&D style deities in the modern USA. By that I mean names and ideals that are held in such high esteem that monuments have been raised in their honour and streams of people regularly visit sites associated with those ideals, and they have had a profound effect on US history. Simply being an important figure in history or even having a day named in their honour isn't enough.

Currently, I have two...

Abraham Lincoln (national unity). Justification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lincoln_Memorial.jpg).

Columbia (Liberty). Justification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_liberty).

Any others?

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm pretty sure Martin Luther King Jr.'s effect on US history could be described as "profound". I hope.

[Elemental]

Note: I think these people fit, but I'm Australian, so I wouldn't know.

George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, Thomas Jefferson, Paul Revere, Christopher Columbus, Jane Addams, Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller (for their charitable work), Eleanor Roosevelt, Harry S Truman, Nellie Tayloe Ross, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Eddison, Alexander Graham Bell, Nikola Tesla, Betsy Ross, Martha Washington, Helen Keller, Samuel Clemens, and I can't think of any more.
It's just a list of everyone I could think of it, and some definitely aren't as important as others.


Also, I second Martin Luther King Jr. I mean, he has a day named in his honour. Which doesn't satisfy your criterion, but his deeds certainly do.

[viking vince]

Andrew Carnegie

[Veklim]

By the same logic, JFK should probably be at least a saint then. If that's not martyrdom I dunno what is!

[Mulletmanalive]

Skipping over the stupid ones from Scion, some of the more sensible suggestions they came up with were:

George Washington: Independance and Courage in Adversity
John Henry: The ability to overcome [also, demented pride]
Johny Appleseed: Philanthropy and Kindness
Paul Bunyan: Awe of Nature

[Elemental]

I can't believe I neglected him. Oh well, I was trying to avoid people from the past fifty years anyway.



Damn ninjas... You should all be sent on dangerous assignments... Preferably to eliminate my enemies.

[Veklim]

Johny Appleseed: Philanthropy and Kindness
Paul Bunyan: Awe of Nature

Actually, these two are fantastic examples, good call Mullet.

[Larkas]

If you want some controversial/evil deity, you could always go for Benedict Arnold.

[Elemental]

The same Benedict Arnold who plotted to surrender West Point to the hated British?


On a more serious note, I can't believe I forgot General Robert E. Lee.
Also Davy Crockett, Crazy Horse, Sacagawea, General Eisenhower, Ulysses S. Grant, and others...

[Mulletmanalive]

The same Benedict Arnold who plotted to surrender West Point to the hated British?

The same Benedict Arnold who was a British soldier, turned traitor to them in favour of the Americans, had second thoughts, tried to make it seem like he'd planned this all along and was hated as much by the British as the Americans, who were, amusingly, surprised that even one of their officers took their original oath to the English crown seriously?

This is just based on his journal, btw.

I'd say neutral, tops. Misplaced Loyalty maybe? Regret?

As an aside, how about Batman [Justice] and Superman [Freedom]? The other well known superhero being Spiderman [Responsibility].

[Elemental]

Well, as I said, I'm Australian, so they didn't teach us American history.
And besides, it's a reference to something.

Definitely not evil, just conflicted. Homeland or sacred oath? Tough choice.

Don't forget Green Lantern! [willpower]

[Larkas]

That's when the "controversial" part comes into play =D

[Ingus]

The same Benedict Arnold who ...

T'was a quote from the Simsons (Homer pretending to be Crusty, pretending to be Homer, pretending to be... [cut] Benedict Arnold)


What about the evil ones?

Charles Manson? Al Capone and Lucky Luciano? Purple Teletubbie?

[Mulletmanalive]

T'was a quote from the Simsons (Homer pretending to be Crusty, pretending to be Homer, pretending to be... [cut] Benedict Arnold)

I stand enlightened.


Purple Teletubbie?

He's Belgian. I've met him once in passing [dude in the suit].

For a Corruptor of the Innocent, how about Will Eisener?

He seems to get demonised by fans a lot...

[Prime32]

Uncle Sam?

[Meriss]

What about Uncle Sam Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Sam) Domains: Patroitism/Devotion/Community/War? maybe?

NINJAED!

[ArlEammon]

George Washington (Would be appalled to be called a god)
Would probably have humility, and gentlemen as part of his domains. Possibly "beginnings" as well.

Benjamin Franklin
Knowledge/Intelligence, Science (Nicola Tesla might be smarter, but Benjamin gets brownie points as Founding Father of an earlier era)

Thomas Jefferson
Luck (Louisana Purchase FOR THE WIN!!!!) Almost a tie with Benjamin Franklin for intelligence, but no cigar. He does get points for being an intelligent "god" though. Though I guess that "luck" is the wrong word for Jefferson, considering so many terrible circumstances, it's obvious that the Louisana Purchase was an incredibly lucrative deal.

Abraham Lincoln:
Freedom. . . Freedom. . . FREEE-DOM!!!

Andrew Jackson:
He might not have been the nicest guy, but he definitely gets the portfolio of war! Other generals from foreign nations were deathly afraid of him, according to my history professor.

Lafeyette
I know he's French, and I know I've forgotten his first name, but he gets the Portfolio for allies, and maybe friendship.

[Lizard Lord]

Abraham Lincoln:
Freedom. . . Freedom. . . FREEE-DOM!!!



Considering what I know of History, national unity would be a better choice for Abraham Lincoln than freedom (which Honest Abe is already listed as in the OP).

Sure the Civil War lead to freeing the slaves, but that wasn't Lincoln's goal. His goal was to keep the country together.

Harriet Tubman with her underground railroad might be a good choice for a goddesss of Freedom.


Lafeyette
I know he's French, and I know I've forgotten his first name, but he gets the Portfolio for allies, and maybe friendship.
If you don't know his name chances are he isn't popular enough to be considered one of the "American gods". Honestly, I don't know who this guy is myself.

[ArlEammon]

Considering what I know of History, national unity would be a better choice for Abraham Lincoln than freedom (which Honest Abe is already listed as in the OP).

Sure the Civil War lead to freeing the slaves, but that wasn't Lincoln's goal. His goal was to keep the country together.

Harriet Tubman with her underground railroad might be a good choice for a goddesss of Freedom.


If you don't know his name chances are he isn't popular enough to be considered one of the "American gods". Honestly, I don't know who this guy is myself.

He's one of the only tangible reasons why the Americans (We, being me and other Americans) won the Revolution in the first place.

[Lizard Lord]

He's one of the only tangible reasons why the Americans (We, being me and other Americans) won the Revolution in the first place.

If that's true then it is a shame he isn't more well known. As it is I am not sure if he is a name that is "held in such high esteem that monuments have been raised in their honour and streams of people regularly visit sites associated with those ideals."

Maybe that should be left up to the OP, though.

[ArlEammon]

If that's true then it is a shame he isn't more well known. As it is I am not sure if he is a name that is "held in such high esteem that monuments have been raised in their honour and streams of people regularly visit sites associated with those ideals."

Maybe that should be left up to the OP, though.

Well, in WWII, MacArthur, when he set foot in France said,"Lafeyette we are here." Maybe that counts as a monument?

[Lizard Lord]

Who is MacArthur?
Edit: Nvm, unlike Lafeyette, I actually was able to find a wikipedia article on him through a google search.

[Veklim]

If Abe's in there then surely John Wilkes Booth should be so as well. You've even got an inbuilt rivalry and everything...

[Howler Dagger]

Sam Houston definently (should) count. He was more than The First/Third president of the Republic of Texas.

[Prime32]

What about some famous Amerindians?

[Selrahc]

Simply being an important figure in history or even having a day named in their honour isn't enough.


And yet people are almost entirely just naming important figures from American history. :smalltongue:

More conceptually, how about a figure called "Dollar" Bill, representing the spirit of American capitalism?

[Ashtagon]

Some good ideas here. Couple of points...

I'm not interested in characters that were created as part of an advertising campaign or as an entertainment product. Fictional characters whose origin was a sincere and not-profit-motivated attempt to promote an American ideal are acceptable.

I'm also not interested in Amerindian culture heroes, except to the extent they may also be considered U.S. culture heroes.

I was very specific on the idea that there should be a major site associated with them that has an established series of visits. Any such site built since, say, 1970 does to count for this purpose. I realise that this probably excludes a great many worthies, but to be a god, one must have a temple and worshippers. Otherwise, you're just another culture hero.

When you make a nomination, it'd be really helpful if you also include supporting evidence. A wikilink to their "temple", and proposed spheres of influence and divine domains would be nice too.

[Kadzar]

If Abe's in there then surely John Wilkes Booth should be so as well. You've even got an inbuilt rivalry and everything...It's not really a rivalry, since they didn't know each other at all, before Booth killed him. He's more like an adventurer who managed to kill a god than a god himself.

Also, to the OP, according to Wikipedia, Columbia and Lady Liberty are two separate entities.

[Howler Dagger]

Sam Houston has the "temple" thing done. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Sam_Houston_Statue.jpg)

[SamBurke]

I'm gonna throw in a few that may or may not be considered canon:

god of Chaos: 4Chan. I forget which board is the hell of the internet, but I want to say /b/.

god of Awesome: Chuck Norris

god of Memes: Troll Face

god of Creation: Mojang

I think a place would go in for fanboy groups: Trekkies, Starwars EU fans (I forget their "official" name), Bronies, and the like.

All capitals left off on purpose.

[SamBurke]

Also, I'd put in a few people who've been oddly missing:

god of War: Robert E. Lee. Unlike most of the other generals mentioned here (I'm looking at YOU, Washington. Leader of Men, not leader of Soldiers.), he was good at winning battles. In fact, he consistently defeated hordes of armies (The Union went through generals like the media does Kardashians), and until the completely out of character defeat at Gettysburg, was a fantastic strategist. Until the end, his moves were sound, well-informed, and pretty solid.

Stonewall Jackson: "There stands Jackson, like a stone wall!" Need I say more?

Nathan Bedford Forrest: The South's original badass. Cavalry commander who was known for taking a hundred men and cleaning house on a thousand. How? By splitting his command into tiny fragments and attacking from several angles.

I think there may be a few groups/people in modern America for Death and so on, but that'd be a little more debatable.

[Dumbledore lives]

I believe Theodore Roosevelt deserves a second mention, because he has two significant monuments to his importance, one is his face carved on Mount Rushmore, and the other being Teddy Bears, which have had a more significant impact than some large piece of rock. He could be argued to be the god of national pride, or he could represent the hunter, as Artemis did for the Greeks

[SlashRunner]

Some good ideas here. Couple of points...

I'm not interested in characters that were created as part of an advertising campaign or as an entertainment product. Fictional characters whose origin was a sincere and not-profit-motivated attempt to promote an American ideal are acceptable.

I'm also not interested in Amerindian culture heroes, except to the extent they may also be considered U.S. culture heroes.

I was very specific on the idea that there should be a major site associated with them that has an established series of visits. Any such site built since, say, 1970 does to count for this purpose. I realise that this probably excludes a great many worthies, but to be a god, one must have a temple and worshippers. Otherwise, you're just another culture hero.

When you make a nomination, it'd be really helpful if you also include supporting evidence. A wikilink to their "temple", and proposed spheres of influence and divine domains would be nice too.

It would also be fair if their "temple" was built before 1970, but it still gets a large number of visitors, in my opinion.

[Lizard Lord]

So Paul Bunyan is still acceptable right? Babe the Blue Ox was created as an advertisement gimmick, but Paul Bunyan was created by stories told between lumberjacks. Not to mention the fact that he has at least one statue in every state that claims to be his birthplace.

[viking vince]

What about some famous Amerindians?

Sitting Bull?

Geranimo (or however you spell it)?

[Erik Vale]

A god of bad luck, George Armstrong Custer (General Custer, Battle of the Little Bighorn)

Worship site (Please stop prayer point) being either his old grave at Little Bighorn River, or his grave in Westpoint.

[Bhu]

John Garrison

aka John Johnston

aka Liver Eating Johnson

[Rocketmoose]

{Scrubbed}

[Ashtagon]

I think this thread has reached the point where the signal:noise ration has dropped.

[Golden-Esque]

Well, since you said "Modern," I'm going to go ahead and say that you don't want to use anyone who is famous enough to be known by a relatively common person (anyone too obscure is not going to work, after all). Warning: I may hurt feelings, and I am only giving you one per Alignment.

LG - George Washington's stories of "I cannot tell a lie" certainly paint him as the type Paladins would want to follow, don't they?

NG - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He fits this bill perfectly because he fought very hard against the government's current laws (Chaotic), but he fought so that the laws could be changed (Lawful). He was also fighting for individual freedoms (Good). He was definitely not Chaotic enough for the Chaotic Good slot.

CG - Abraham Lincoln. Champion of Free Rights (Good), Mr. Lincoln was also very ... unorthadox about the use of his powers. He basically wrote the book on Presidential War-Time powers, and since many of which were first used against former American citizens, it was quite controversial the time. Having him stand as an opposite to George Washington, but on the same "team" can be very effective.

NN - Thomas Jefferson. I'd give him True Neutral because he basically did whatever he had to in order to maintain the country. He's well-known for his role as the writer of the Declaration of Independence; he's less well-known for starting the Barbary Pirate Wars. Also, you can call him a champion of justice for fighting against the British, but then again, he also had a massive plantation of slaves, which is fairly Evil by today's standards.

CE - Marilyn Mansion. The only logical pick for Chaotic Evil is an infamous writer of antiestablishment music. While fairly recent, Mr. Mansion is very well-known for his shennanigans and based on his media portrayal, will suffice you well. Also, it is an interesting flip to see music considered to be an "Evil" aspect in a campaign setting.

NE - Hrm ... Dr. Kevorkian. No joke. You need a "death god" in any pantheon, and Dr. Kevorkian is infamous in America for his practices on euthanasia. I could definitely see him being worshiped as a god who took people before their time.

LE - Richard Nixion. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s46jNfA9iMw) Richard Nixion is the only real choice, between the infamous Watergate Scandal and how Futurama portrays him. ;-P

Hope you enjoyed this.

[togapika]

What about The Unknown Soldier?
Also possibly Kilroy, from "Kilroy was here" fame...

[Solaris]

If you don't know his name chances are he isn't popular enough to be considered one of the "American gods". Honestly, I don't know who this guy is myself.

Lafayette, I am here! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_du_Motier,_marquis_de_Lafayette)
...
He's second only to Baron von Steuben (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_von_Steuben) in the realm of "Foreigners who helped us in a huge way", though perhaps more famous to folks who don't have stripes on their chest on account of a more charismatic nature. Lafayette may well be a patron saint of Liberty, in much the same way the Red Knight is to Tempos in the Forgotten Realms (if I recall correctly), or perhaps a manifestation of the Sweet Lady (dude dressed as a woman to sneak into the States, neh?). Von Steuben was, of course, the predecessor and prototype of the American drill sergeant. Make of that what you will.

[thisisnotspam]

{scrubbed}

LN The Manhattan Pantheon: Not so long ago, mighty wizards gathered to research an arcane spell that would win the war against a force of evil, yet the spell was so destructive that it has not been used against people since that war

temple http://www.aps.org/units/fhp/newsletters/spring2010/reed.cfm

domains: Death, Destruction, Magic, Knowledge and Suffering

(Theodore Hall(who gave the info to the soviets) would be the pantheon's outcast)

CN Elvis the King of Bards: Worshiped as the greatest bard ever, many try to emulate him yet none come close, some say he never died at all, but ascended to godhood before his time in the afterlife

temple: there really are a lot of them, don't want to link just 1

domains: Joy, Sin-Gluttony, Deathless, Charm,

NG Ulysses Grant: Great warior, general, politician and drinker, enemy of Robert Lee

temple http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/ulysses-s.-grant-memorial.html (http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/ulysses-s.-grant-
memorial.html)

domains: War, Metal, Dwarf, Travel, Thirst

LE Robert Lee: Led the men of the Southern lands in the war with their brothers in the north, although honourable himself he fought for a cause of evil (by wich i mean slavery not secession)

trmple: http://dc.about.com/od/getawaydestinations/ig/Richmond-Pictures-/Robert-E--Lee-Monument.htm

domains: War, Sin-Pride, Tyranny, Planning, Force

[Calmar]

I do not very much like the idea of turning someone into a god, just because s/he's... like real cool and stuff.

That said, Theodore Roosevelt is one of humanity's finest examples of honour, decency, courage and down-to-earthness. Also, he has some good teachings (http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/life/quotes.htm) that are certainly beneficial for everyone who keeps them in mind.

[dspeyer]

Not all of them have to come from historical people. I think Lady Liberty and Uncle Sam have been mentioned. Some more:

The Invisible Hand (N): prosperity, greed, inaction. The invisible hand teaches that mortals should look to their own affairs exclusively, and have faith that all else will be taken care of. The Hand is accompanied by two demigods: the Great Bull of Prosperity and the Great Bear of Poverty, who constantly bat the world between them.

Rosie the Riveter (CG): empowerment, women. Rosie teaches that there are hidden depths in everyone, and in times of trouble, anyone can rise to the occasion.

Mickey Mouse (LE): grand-scale theft, patronizing children, useless bureaucracy. Mickey teaches that anything can become yours if you say that it is loudly and often enough. Mickey also teaches that children should be kept weak by denying them access to serious ideas. How Mickey became the patron of useless bureaucracy is unknown.

[Calmar]

The Invisible Hand (N): prosperity, greed, inaction. The invisible hand teaches that mortals should look to their own affairs exclusively, and have faith that all else will be taken care of. The Hand is accompanied by two demigods: the Great Bull of Prosperity and the Great Bear of Poverty, who constantly bat the world between them.

That hand looks Scottish to me... :smallconfused:

[ArlEammon]

trmple: http://dc.about.com/od/getawaydestinations/ig/Richmond-Pictures-/Robert-E--Lee-Monument.htm

domains: War, Sin-Pride, Tyranny, Planning, Force

According to what I've read about him, Robert E. Lee was a very decent and benevolent man, the reason why he's seen as evil is because he fought for an evil cause.

Sure he made the wrong choices and joined the evulz! But as far as I know he personally acted well.

[thisisnotspam]

According to what I've read about him, Robert E. Lee was a very decent and benevolent man, the reason why he's seen as evil is because he fought for an evil cause.

Sure he made the wrong choices and joined the evulz! But as far as I know he personally acted well.

i said that he was honourable, and i don't think i'd call him evil in real life, but in D&D aligment system the CSA and Lee are clearly lawfull evil

[Solaris]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
Your mileage may vary. I'm thinking we ought to avoid people currently in office when we're talking about icons.
I mean, discussing his domains alone starts running into a violation of the politics rule. (Also, a good deity grants the Good domain.)


LE Robert Lee: Led the men of the Southern lands in the war with their brothers in the north, although honourable himself he fought for a cause of evil (by wich i mean slavery not secession)

trmple: http://dc.about.com/od/getawaydestinations/ig/Richmond-Pictures-/Robert-E--Lee-Monument.htm

domains: War, Sin-Pride, Tyranny, Planning, Force
You didn't major in history, I see.
Here's my proposal for General Lee:
Lawful Good. The man was a knight in shining armor given a situation with no good choice.
Domains: War, Planning, Protection, Law, Good.


According to what I've read about him, Robert E. Lee was a very decent and benevolent man, the reason why he's seen as evil is because he fought for an evil cause.

Sure he made the wrong choices and joined the evulz! But as far as I know he personally acted well.
Very decent, and I'm a pro-Union, anti-Confederacy man m'self. Lee did not make the decision to join the Confederacy lightly, and had almost made up his mind to leave the service entirely rather than participate in a civil war. He did not join to protect slavery, but rather to protect his home state. He was very much against slavery, actually, though too much an officer and a gentleman to spend much breath on the subject. After the war he was instrumental in what little reconciliation did happen, more so than many of the Union officials.

I think I like the idea of archetypal deities rather than individuals. Perhaps Washington was an avatar of the Leader of Men/Father of America deity, while Edison, Ford, Rockefeller, and Jobs are all avatars/inspired by the Captain of Industry.

[GenPol]

How about Squanto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squanto)? He could probably represent a few different domains, from maybe forgiveness, travel, friendship, to absolute badassery.

[thisisnotspam]

{Scrubbed}

[Ashtagon]

It seems you and I have a different interpretation of the aligment system. I know full well that Lee was oposed to slavery, but his legacy is today claimed by, amongst others, people whose tolerance can paralel Redcloak's. However the civil war is a sensitive issue and i don't want to argue. We all have our views.

And this debate is why I purposely choose not to play the 9-alignment game. A similar issue happened in the Soviet gods thread, where there was an assumption among some posters that these had to be inherently evil.

The truth is, good and evil, in the context of nameable historical figures, quite often descends into "my culture is good; that culture is evil".

No. Let's remove the politicking from this thread, please.

[Zeta Kai]

By the same logic, JFK should probably be at least a saint then. If that's not martyrdom I dunno what is!

Then you don't know what martyrdom is. At all. Martyrs choose to die for their cause. They see it coming. JFK, regardless of what you may think about the man, his politics, his policies, or anything else about his administration, did not martyr himself for a cause. A sniper's victim rarely even sees his death coming even an instant beforehand. It's simply not an applicable term to use, & do so heavily implies you do not understand its basic meaning.

[Veklim]

Martyr is perhaps not quite the right word, but to be one you don't HAVE to be watching the guy shooting you in the face. You merely need to be aware that your actions will get you killed, and then continue with them anyhow. Same way as Martin Luther King was a martyr to his cause, even if he didn't march willing and aware to his own death.

mar·tyr/ˈmärtər/
Noun: A person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
I think that covers political belief, yes?

I've not posted much on this thread for 2 reasons;
Firstly I figured since I'm British, I shouldn't go commenting too much on American historical figures, because we have a very different idea of more than a few of them, and the entire past 300 years are perceived by the rest of the world in a rather different light to the way Americans view their history themselves.
Secondly, I feared political motivations would emerge, and I was right about that much.

[Veklim]

They see it coming.
JFK didn't know people wanted him dead because of his actions..?!

... did not martyr himself for a cause. A sniper's victim rarely even sees his death coming even an instant beforehand.
This is actually a good example of why I'm disagreeing with you. Martyrs don't generally martyr themselves, someone else (i.e. that sniper you mentioned) generally do it for them. The martyr's choice is not their death, but the actions they undertook which made their death inevitable.

[polity4life]

I would suggest some overlapping domains. For example, a Commerce domain should be led by Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew "Old Hickory" Jackson, James Garfield, and Abraham Lincoln. They all called for or enacted policy that kept monetary policy well in public hands instead of private. Also, as a history note, Franklin and Lincoln were key supporters of purely fiat currencies, those being Colonial Scrip and Greenbacks. Conversely, you could have Alexander Hamilton, Woodrow Wilson, and...I can't think of the rest, who supported private centralized banking as an opposing pantheon. Obviously, these people would have many domains; Jackson has an obvious option of war. But let's try to apply some of this to those who weren't necessarily presidents or founders.

How about Joseph McCarthy? Certainly something lawful evil, or at least lawful neutral, could be constructed out of him.

Charles Lindbergh and Amelia Earhart would have some sort of explorer or traveler domain, for those who wish dare to go where few have gone (by extreme means, of course).

We could also throw in the cult of Tammany Hall, which I think would be a very interesting lawful evil group.

For mythical American figures, there's Columbia: America's female personification. I think she was dubbed the Goddess of Liberty and Democracy.

[Ashtagon]

This thread has now become overtly political, and I am taking no further interest in it.

[averagejoe]

This thread has now become overtly political, and I am taking no further interest in it.

The Mod They Call Me: I agree. Thread locked.