Best ways to overcome blindness

[Drathmar]

So, I was wondering, what would be the best way for a fighter type character (swordsage class specifically) to overcome actual blindness and still be playable, using feats, magic items, prestige classes, possibly spells etc. Blind-fight is a start but you still have a miss chance, just easier to overcome.

I know that multiclassing to 1 level of Psion and grabbing a feat there (forget the name) is probably the best way, but what are the best ways without that. Party and DM are leery of anything Psionic as they have never ran psionics. Thanks in advance!

[dextercorvia]

Abberant Dragonmark (Charm Person) and 1 level of Mindbender with the feat Mindsight. That will get you the ability to 'see' anything not mindless withing 100'.

Unseelie Fey template has the option of being blind with 30' of blindsight. It has a strength and con penalty, which makes it less useful to most melee. Still it has Wings, and a useful Su ability, so it might be worth the trade.

[Reprimand]

Blind oracle template from the book of templates, though I'm not sure if it's a 3rd party source or not. Still worth looking into, gives you augury and other such really good divination spells as spell-like abilities and you gain blindsight and tremorsense that levels with you. at the expense of your normal sight that is. I think it's +2 LA.

The tremorsense goes out a stupid amount of distance so you can basically locate every living creature within a 2 mile radius at elc 3 (after you take a class level with the template) so long as it's touching the ground, or even underground.

Purple worms are no longer a problem sir.

[Psyren]

You're a swordsage right? Isn't there some stance that lets you detect enemies nonvisually?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hearing the Air; but it is a level 5 stance and it gives you Blindsense out at 30 ft. and +5 to listen checks.

[Drathmar]

You're a swordsage right? Isn't there some stance that lets you detect enemies nonvisually?

If you mean the one that gives scent... maybe... but I don't think scent actually lets you detect exact locations unless within 5' of someone. Maybe that + blind-fight would work though.

[Keneth]

Since we're on the topic, does anyone know how to deal with this problem in Pathfinder? There's the 4th level spell Echolocation but it's like a bad version of the 3rd ed. Blindsight spell and I have better things to do with my 4th level spell slots.

[Psyren]

Since we're on the topic, does anyone know how to deal with this problem in Pathfinder? There's the 4th level spell Echolocation but it's like a bad version of the 3rd ed. Blindsight spell and I have better things to do with my 4th level spell slots.

If psionics are allowed, both Synesthete (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/s/synesthete) and Touchsight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/t/touchsight) made it to PF.

For magic though, no idea.

[Ernir]

Raptor's Mask, MIC page 210. Grants immunity to Blindness. Cheap, too.

[HunterOfJello]

Pay a cleric to regrow your eyes. The Regeneration spell can regrow entire heads, so it will easily regrow your eyes (or your head if that's what's missing). I bet you can get a cleric to cast the spell for a low cost if you beg them enough.

If your character was born with ****ty eyes and your DM rules that Regeneration will only regrow another pair of ****ty eyes, then I'm sure there's a graft in one of the books that you can put into your body to replace your useless eyes.

Playing a blind character is stupid. I don't understand why people are interested in doing it. You'd have to use a completely different tile set and not look at the battleground set up for everyone else just to be able to play the game without intentionally or unintentionally cheating and metagaming.

[veven]

^ Playing the character you want to play is stupid? I completely disagree.


I had an NPC in a campaign I ran who was most famous for defeating a powerful illusionist that was taking over the nation. I fought this battle wearing a Blindfold of True Darkness (IIRC) from the MIC because he knew not to trust his eyes in this battle.

I am AFB but if i remember correctly the blindfold gives blindsight 30ft. Not amazing but certainly helps. And you get to be a guy who fights with a blindfold on which looks pretty badass.

[dextercorvia]

If you were going Psionics anyway, then if you can pick up 5 levels of Ardent (better wis synergy than Psion) you can pick up Touchsight from the Knowledge Mantle.

[Drathmar]

Pay a cleric to regrow your eyes. The Regeneration spell can regrow entire heads, so it will easily regrow your eyes (or your head if that's what's missing). I bet you can get a cleric to cast the spell for a low cost if you beg them enough.

If your character was born with ****ty eyes and your DM rules that Regeneration will only regrow another pair of ****ty eyes, then I'm sure there's a graft in one of the books that you can put into your body to replace your useless eyes.

Playing a blind character is stupid. I don't understand why people are interested in doing it. You'd have to use a completely different tile set and not look at the battleground set up for everyone else just to be able to play the game without intentionally or unintentionally cheating and metagaming.

1.) Theres not really many high level clerics in the world.
2.) Most of the high level clerics are part of a theocracy... which my char is not on good terms with
3.) Due to his upbringing... my character pretty much hates clerics.
4.) It's a concept I've always wanted to try but never actually have because *gasp* I think it would be fun... and isn't fun the most important part of D&D?

[claypigeons]

1.) Theres not really many high level clerics in the world.
2.) Most of the high level clerics are part of a theocracy... which my char is not on good terms with
3.) Due to his upbringing... my character pretty much hates clerics.
4.) It's a concept I've always wanted to try but never actually have because *gasp* I think it would be fun... and isn't fun the most important part of D&D?

So you want to play a blind character that has overcome his blindless using items/feats/whatever? So that the penalty of blindness is... gone? Really? Why not just play a sighted character?

The easiest way (though you have stated your group might not allow it) is to take a level or two of Psion and use Synesthate. Use your ears to "see" and also become immune to gaze attacks. Or spend gold on an item that gives blindsense/blindsight.

Or go the purest route, jacking up your listen skill, taking blind-fight and hoping for the best. Even your character knows where the enemies are, he's still blind, and will still get hit easily.

[Geigan]

Taking two levels of Incarnate to bind a Shedu Crown soulmeld to your Crown slot would give you 100 ft telepathy for mindsight. Not as good as the mindbender dip, but I don't think you have spellcasting to make that one work and there are some fun things that can be done with incarnates.

Of course incarnum might be even further out there than psionics for some people.

[Psyren]

Taking two levels of Incarnate to bind a Shedu Crown soulmeld to your Crown slot would give you 100 ft telepathy for mindsight. Not as good as the mindbender dip, but I don't think you have spellcasting to make that one work and there are some fun things that can be done with incarnates.

You don't even need the Incarnate dip: Crown is a least chakra, so a second feat (Open Least Chakra) will do it.

[Geigan]

You don't even need the Incarnate dip: Crown is a least chakra, so a second feat (Open Least Chakra) will do it.

Either a two level dip, a two feat tax for shape soulmeld and Open Least Chakra, or a 1 level dip and feat tax. All of that and he has to pay a feat for mindsight as well. How much he can afford depends on what he's got to work with of course. What sort of conditions are you working with Drathmar? Is this game in progress or are you still in the midst of building?

[Psyren]

Well... If you consider that mere murky vision is a flaw that is worth a feat, perhaps full-on incurable blindness could be worth two?

[Eldest]

Well... If you consider that mere murky vision is a flaw that is worth a feat, perhaps full-on incurable blindness could be worth two?

If not more. Although that would lead to cheapness and people playing blind wizards for the extra feats, and finding some way around it. Like the ones suggested here.


So you want to play a blind character that has overcome his blindless using items/feats/whatever? So that the penalty of blindness is... gone? Really? Why not just play a sighted character?

Because the point is that he did overcome his blindness.

[claypigeons]

If not more. Although that would lead to cheapness and people playing blind wizards for the extra feats, and finding some way around it. Like the ones suggested here.



Because the point is that he did overcome his blindness.

No he didn't. He metagamed his way out of the penalty of blindness. "Overcoming" blindness means he's still blind but manages to live his life in a semi-normal manner.

"Blind, but not actually blind" is what was asked for.






Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm)

Clerics are out, but what about druids? A not insignificant amount of money... or completion of a few important tasks makes you have working eyes. Even a scroll and someone with the ability to use it would work.


Remove Blindness/Deafness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeBlindnessDeafness.htm)

Or, if you still have eyes, make them work. Since clerics are out, find a rogue/warlock and have them cast this via a scroll. Costs much less, but depending on the nature of the blindness, it may not work.

[Psyren]

No he didn't. He metagamed his way out of the penalty of blindness. "Overcoming" blindness means he's still blind but manages to live his life in a semi-normal manner.

"Blind, but not actually blind" is what was asked for.

You're wrong - Blindsense, Tremorsense, Mindsight etc. don't remove all the penalties for being blind. You can pinpoint what square a target is in, but you still have to deal with 50% miss chance to actually hit it.

In addition, these abilities typically have much shorter ranges than actual sight with good Spot checks.

[claypigeons]

You're wrong - Blindsense, Tremorsense, Mindsight etc. don't remove all the penalties for being blind. You can pinpoint what square a target is in, but you still have to deal with 50% miss chance to actually hit it.

In addition, these abilities typically have much shorter ranges than actual sight with good Spot checks.

So "technically" blind. Great. Still not "actual blindness" as was stated in the OP. You got me on a semantic argument. Congratulations.

The original poster wants a character that can't see in the traditional sense, but without the debilitating mechanical effects of that condition. A character with a 'weakness' that isn't an actual weakness. A burden-less burden for the sake of playing a "unique" character.

All the suggestions that don't involve fixing the blindness (bandaids) are using resources (money, feats, class dips) that could be spent on doing your chosen job ~better~ rather than ~at all~. Even the suggestions that make the character able to see again take up resources that could be spent in such a way.

[dextercorvia]

So "technically" blind. Great. Still not "actual blindness" as was stated in the OP. You got me on a semantic argument. Congratulations.

The original poster wants a character that can't see in the traditional sense, but without the debilitating mechanical effects of that condition. A character with a 'weakness' that isn't an actual weakness. A burden-less burden for the sake of playing a "unique" character.

All the suggestions that don't involve fixing the blindness (bandaids) are using resources (money, feats, class dips) that could be spent on doing your chosen job ~better~ rather than ~at all~. Even the suggestions that make the character able to see again take up resources that could be spent in such a way.

Which is it? Is it not really a weakness, or is it using up build resources? He wants to play a blind ninja that can still kick ass. Leave the guy alone. It's a trope. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlindWeaponmaster)

[Bakkan]

The original poster wants a character that can't see in the traditional sense, but without the debilitating mechanical effects of that condition. A character with a 'weakness' that isn't an actual weakness. A burden-less burden for the sake of playing a "unique" character.

All the suggestions that don't involve fixing the blindness (bandaids) are using resources (money, feats, class dips) that could be spent on doing your chosen job ~better~ rather than ~at all~. Even the suggestions that make the character able to see again take up resources that could be spent in such a way.

And why shouldn't he/she?? People put points into Profession skills that will never be rolled in game because of a cool backstory and spend money to make up the difference; or purchase a manor house, completely useless in battle, because they're playing a Baron and a Baron should have one; or ban Conjuration because their character doesn't believe in forcing creatures to act against their will and uses Shadow Conjuration in those rare times a Conjuration is absolutely essential.

Further, there are many legitimate reasons why someone might be OK with or even want to make themselves weaker, such as

The group has decided to run a low-power campaign
The player knows that he or she is the most experienced optimizer and deliberately wants to handicap himself or herself
The player simply doesn't care if he or she is the weak or even the least powerful character in the group, since simply playing his or her concept will be fun


On topic, IMO the Blindfold of True Darkness is the way to go. It costs 9000 gp. It appears in the Arms and Equipment Guide (3.0) and the Magic Item Compendium (3.5). Show both to your DM and lobby for the A&EG version, which gives 60 ft blindsight instead of 30 ft and should be sufficient for nearly all indoor or underground fights and most other fights as well.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So "technically" blind. Great. Still not "actual blindness" as was stated in the OP. You got me on a semantic argument. Congratulations.

The original poster wants a character that can't see in the traditional sense, but without the debilitating mechanical effects of that condition. A character with a 'weakness' that isn't an actual weakness. A burden-less burden for the sake of playing a "unique" character.

All the suggestions that don't involve fixing the blindness (bandaids) are using resources (money, feats, class dips) that could be spent on doing your chosen job ~better~ rather than ~at all~. Even the suggestions that make the character able to see again take up resources that could be spent in such a way.

The concept of blind martial artist has been around for years. He wants to play it for aesthetics, not for a weakness. You don't get penalized for wanting to play a guy who wields the power of the gods. Or one that uses the power of the earth itself.

[Drathmar]

Either a two level dip, a two feat tax for shape soulmeld and Open Least Chakra, or a 1 level dip and feat tax. All of that and he has to pay a feat for mindsight as well. How much he can afford depends on what he's got to work with of course. What sort of conditions are you working with Drathmar? Is this game in progress or are you still in the midst of building?

Game is in progress, character isn't actually blind yet. I talked it over with my DM and we have a storyline planned where he will end up blind around the point where he is almost lvl 6, so that I can get blind-fight then so I can still at least function.

The idea is for him to go blind during the end of one of a quest... then get blind-fight and learn to somewhat fight blind during the down time (so he's training to fight blind, picking up the blind-fight feat), and from there move on to search for other ways to overcome it the weakness of it so he can fulfill his personal character quest... which is to become the emperor of his homeland... an empire that values brutality and strength, the next ruler is chosen by whoever kills the current emperor from his/her bloodline... and he hated the 'might makes right' and 'strong can do whatever they want screw the weak' mentality since he was a child, which is why he started adventuring... etc.

Yes, I know it is full of cliche's and tropes, but hell... there is a reason they are cliches and tropes... cause they are great characters to fantasize about being... something that I believe is a fundamental concept of D&D... being someone else you thought was cool.


So "technically" blind. Great. Still not "actual blindness" as was stated in the OP. You got me on a semantic argument. Congratulations.

The original poster wants a character that can't see in the traditional sense, but without the debilitating mechanical effects of that condition. A character with a 'weakness' that isn't an actual weakness. A burden-less burden for the sake of playing a "unique" character.

All the suggestions that don't involve fixing the blindness (bandaids) are using resources (money, feats, class dips) that could be spent on doing your chosen job ~better~ rather than ~at all~. Even the suggestions that make the character able to see again take up resources that could be spent in such a way.

I'm not playing in a high-op or even really medium-op game (I mean come on... one of the characters is playing a bard going for wildmage), so what is wrong with using resources on playing something I think is fun.

Also because plain swordsage is generally higher tier than the rest of the party and I thought this would be a cool way to even it out.

Party is: Tiefling Monk (possibly duskblade multiclass), Retarded Human Druid (highest tier char, but he's playing him as stupid for fun), Human Bard (going for wildmage), Rogue (who is using his skill-monkey-ness to be a 'Dragon Climber' and dual-wields claws (homemade weapon made especially for this), that help with that but don't do a lot of damage), and Me... who has pretty much dominated every encounter so far (about 5 in our first session, lvl 3).

We are all playing things we think are fun rather than playing chars like ubercharges and god, etc.


And why shouldn't he/she?? People put points into Profession skills that will never be rolled in game because of a cool backstory and spend money to make up the difference; or purchase a manor house, completely useless in battle, because they're playing a Baron and a Baron should have one; or ban Conjuration because their character doesn't believe in forcing creatures to act against their will and uses Shadow Conjuration in those rare times a Conjuration is absolutely essential.

Further, there are many legitimate reasons why someone might be OK with or even want to make themselves weaker, such as

The group has decided to run a low-power campaign
The player knows that he or she is the most experienced optimizer and deliberately wants to handicap himself or herself
The player simply doesn't care if he or she is the weak or even the least powerful character in the group, since simply playing his or her concept will be fun


On topic, IMO the Blindfold of True Darkness is the way to go. It costs 9000 gp. It appears in the Arms and Equipment Guide (3.0) and the Magic Item Compendium (3.5). Show both to your DM and lobby for the A&EG version, which gives 60 ft blindsight instead of 30 ft and should be sufficient for nearly all indoor or underground fights and most other fights as well.

We are running pretty low power as you can see above, I am pretty much the most experienced player there, and I don't care if I am the weakest, because I love the concept... so all 3 fit :P

Also I love the Blindfold Idea... though it would most likely end up being a quest type deal than bought as magic items are pretty rare... but I am pretty sure my DM would go for this as well, he is lenient on things that we want to do for fun and don't break the game.

[claypigeons]

We are all playing things we think are fun rather than playing chars like ubercharges and god, etc.


"Not blind" =/= god or ubercharger.



Is the blindness going to be curse-induced? Gods-induced? Otherwise roleplay and not mechanically based? Because if it's mundane (damaged eyes, or eyes put out), a scroll of Remove Blindness or Regenerate still trumps it, and doesn't necessarily remove the usefulness of Blind-Fight or the headband. And since clerics are rare/you hate them, it could still take a session of questing just to get the scroll.

[Drathmar]

"Not blind" =/= god or ubercharger.



Is the blindness going to be curse-induced? Gods-induced? Otherwise roleplay and not mechanically based? Because if it's mundane (damaged eyes, or eyes put out), a scroll of Remove Blindness or Regenerate still trumps it, and doesn't necessarily remove the usefulness of Blind-Fight or the headband. And since clerics are rare/you hate them, it could still take a session of questing just to get the scroll.

Remove Blindness/Regenerate are off the table for various reasons.

[deuxhero]

The concept of blind martial artist has been around for years. He wants to play it for aesthetics, not for a weakness. You don't get penalized for wanting to play a guy who wields the power of the gods. Or one that uses the power of the earth itself.

Yes you do. Stone Dragon has that stupid "must be standing on ground to use" for all maneuvers.

Power of nature on the other hand...

[Ramza00]

Chain of Eyes makes a great eternal wand (chain of eyes is a 2nd level spell that lasts 1 hour per caster level).

For 4420gp you get the ability twice a day to be able to see through someone elses eyes for 3 hours (so a total of 6 hours for each eternal wand.)

See through your party member's eyes, see through your mount's eyes, see through the random fly on the wall's eyes.

[Greenish]

All the suggestions that don't involve fixing the blindness (bandaids) are using resources (money, feats, class dips) that could be spent on doing your chosen job ~better~ rather than ~at all~.So? :smallconfused:

Last I checked, you didn't have to make the best possible character to be good enough.

[Geigan]

Chain of Eyes makes a great eternal wand (chain of eyes is a 2nd level spell that lasts 1 hour per caster level).

For 4420gp you get the ability twice a day to be able to see through someone elses eyes for 3 hours (so a total of 6 hours for each eternal wand.)

See through your party member's eyes, see through your mount's eyes, see through the random fly on the wall's eyes.

They'll help spread his vision of a nation free from the theocracy.

[Psyren]

So "technically" blind. Great. Still not "actual blindness" as was stated in the OP. You got me on a semantic argument. Congratulations.

50% miss chance on every attack is not "semantics." It is a real, actual mechanical penalty. You could miss the Tarrasque with a laser pointer from 5 feet away with a drawback like that.

And Mindsight/Blindsense are hardly silver bullets. Yeah, I might know there are 5 guys behind the closed door up ahead, or lurking in the darkness - but on the other hand, I can't see a hole in the ground in broad daylight. There are distinct disadvantages.

[Ramza00]

50% miss chance on every attack is not "semantics." It is a real, actual mechanical penalty. You could miss the Tarrasque with a laser pointer from 5 feet away with a drawback like that.

And Mindsight/Blindsense are hardly silver bullets. Yeah, I might know there are 5 guys behind the closed door up ahead, or lurking in the darkness - but on the other hand, I can't see a hole in the ground in broad daylight. There are distinct disadvantages.

Plus things that are ranged, such as archers, ruin your day. Most forms of telepathy have about a 100ft range more or less so mindsight is useless past 100ft, same logic with blindsense. Well archery can easily be past 100ft. Thus you can't see your assailant, you don't even know if he is north of your or south of you. You can't see the arrows that are attacking you, all you know is that sometimes something hits you and it hurts like hell.

[Ramza00]

Blind Wizards can't read their spellbooks. Read Magic doesn grant you vision to read your spellbook it only allows the magical inscription to make sense, you still need to see the spell to learn/prepare the spell.

(Chain of Eyes does fix this if you have someone else ready read the book at all times such as a familiar)

The dragon variant for the bookless wizard doesn't even work (you use perfumes to memorize the spells forever in your subconscious mind and then you prepare those spells from your subcosncious), you may be able to learn 2 spells per level with this variant but you can't learn any more spells from the greater world.

[Dusk Eclipse]

50% miss chance on every attack is not "semantics." It is a real, actual mechanical penalty. You could miss the Tarrasque with a laser pointer from 5 feet away with a drawback like that.

And Mindsight/Blindsense are hardly silver bullets. Yeah, I might know there are 5 guys behind the closed door up ahead, or lurking in the darkness - but on the other hand, I can't see a hole in the ground in broad daylight. There are distinct disadvantages.

Tremorsense :smalltongue:

[Drathmar]

Plus things that are ranged, such as archers, ruin your day. Most forms of telepathy have about a 100ft range more or less so mindsight is useless past 100ft, same logic with blindsense. Well archery can easily be past 100ft. Thus you can't see your assailant, you don't even know if he is north of your or south of you. You can't see the arrows that are attacking you, all you know is that sometimes something hits you and it hurts like hell.

There is that one maneuver that lets you teleport next to an attacker, then again I think it's max 100' (I'm AFB at the moment) but if not that could fix it... I don't believe it says you have to be able to see the person attacking you.