Star Wars: Non Force Users and the Dark and Light Sides

[Sotharsyl]

Hello, and welcome SW buffs I have a question about the Force and it's interaction with non Jedi and non Sith and I'm hoping you can help answer my question, if you so chose I'll accept any cannon answer from a scene in the movies to the most obscure EU material you know of.

The question is can one who is not attuned to the Force but who acts as how one might expect a Jedi or Sith to act be sensed as "aligned" to one side of the Force.

Now doubtlessly force adepts can sense emotions and have a nice progression from fear to ... but let's say a Jedi or Sith if you think it counts has entered a dinner and sits down at the counter.

Now there's a patron who is minding his own business eating a bit bored but safe can the Jedi use his mastery of the Force determine if the man is:

a war criminal on the run?
a serial killer?
a weapons trafficker?
a man who donates all his money and time to orphans?
or some other action which is aligned with one Side or the other?

[Tengu_temp]

No, for two reasons:
1. Force users can only detect other Force users. In DND terms, it's Detect Magic, not Detect Alignment.
2. Light side requires you to reject your basic emotions instead of accepting that they're an integral part of you, dark side requires you to act like a spoiled, selfish brat all the time. Most people do neither, even if they are clearly good or evil.

[Sotharsyl]

No, for two reasons:
1. Force users can only detect other Force users. In DND terms, it's Detect Magic, not Detect Alignment.
2. Light side requires you to reject your basic emotions instead of accepting that they're an integral part of you, dark side requires you to act like a spoiled, selfish brat all the time. Most people do neither, even if they are clearly good or evil.

Ah so they officially only detect other Force Users, well that answers my question by the way was this stated in the RPG?

[Nerd-o-rama]

The first thing I would like to point out is that, despite the use of the term in some game mechanics, there is no such thing as "The Light Side of the Force". There is the Force, and there is the Dark Side of the Force. They are not equal and opposite cosmic forces, one is simply a different way of using the other. Anything that states otherwise is contrary to what's established in the films.

That said, what makes the Dark Side of the Force the Dark Side seems to be less "evil" and more "using the Force or otherwise acting based on selfish emotions". Anger, fear, hatred, even monogamous love (taken too far) are selfish reactions. If someone using the Force lets those emotions guide their actions, they are said to be using the Dark Side. Someone (or something, or somewhere) heavy and thick with that kind of emotion would be obvious to a Force Sensitive in one way or another, because sensing others' emotions is a basic part of sensing the Force. Having a strong presence in the Force (i.e. being a Jedi) would "amplify" those feelings to other Force Sensitives - they'd be feeling the same emotions over a stronger connection.

By contrast, not using the Dark Side seems to mean "using the Force or otherwise acting based on reason or selfless emotions - for the 'good' of the Galaxy as a whole, rather than yourself". You can't really sense someone being rational, exactly - although I suppose a Force Sensitive focusing their senses on someone could notice their lack of emotion, or drive to help others, or the like.


To answer the original question, a skilled Jedi or Sith can sense others' thoughts if they focus and train their connection to the Force. That can give them the answer to any of the questions in the OP, especially if that person is not a trained Force-user and doesn't know how to think around a Jedi or Sith's senses. If the Jedi can't pick thoughts out of the person's head (for example, if he's not thinking about them on a level the Jedi can sense), the Jedi could still read his emotional state and determine whether he's experienced or experiencing strong enough emotions to leave a mark on his presence in the Force. Again, assuming the "target" doesn't know how to obscure a Force User's senses.

The Jedi or Sith, however, can not simply detect if the person is cosmically good or cosmically evil in some binary sense. As black and white as Star Wars is, it still doesn't work that way.

[Tiki Snakes]

The Jedi or Sith, however, can not simply detect if the person is cosmically good or cosmically evil in some binary sense. As black and white as Star Wars is, it still doesn't work that way.

Indeed.
Even when certain computer games go out of their way to suggest otherwise.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I like everything in KotOR except the goddamn alignment meter. Combined with Bioware's mastery of subtle and nuanced dialog choices, it just makes things awkward as hell.

[Philistine]

That's a very Prequel-era point of view, and contradicts the OT. In the OT, the Dark Side was "Fear. Anger. Aggression," not "all emotion." Obi-wan explicitly told Luke that his feelings, on realizing Leia was his long-lost sister, did him credit. But the biggest block of all (we know Obi-wan isn't always reliable) is the redemption of Darth Vader.

Word of God has it that Vader was absolved of his decades of brutal murder, torture, tyranny and oppression in that one moment when he decided to kill his boss to save his son. But in the PT-era view of the Force, that was a Dark Side act - it was, after all, driven by powerful emotion and personal attachment, which are supposed to be harbingers of teh baddz. Personally, I think said redemption was problematic enough already before the PT retconned the rules to cast the emotions that spurred it as the Dark Side.

ETA:
If that had been the belief of the Jedi Order in the Prequel era, though, that would explain why Luke was able to do what no Jedi of that day could manage - including "Chosen One" Anakin. Luke grew up as regular folks and learned to accept and deal with his feelings, giving him a better foundation to withstand their highs and lows than the emotion-denying PT Order. But it still means the Prequel-era view is fundamentally wrong about the nature of the Force.

[hamishspence]

In the RotJ novelization, Luke's able to sense that the Rancor is not evil, just dumb, mistreated, and lashing out at everything around it.

That might qualify as "sensing the presence or absence of evil in a non-Force User."

In the Zahn book Allegiance, set 6 months after the Battle of Yavin, Luke uses this a few times.

[Gnoman]

That's primarily a sensing of thoughts. He was able to determine the emotional motivation behind the rancor's actions.

[Nerd-o-rama]

But it still means the Prequel-era view is fundamentally wrong about the nature of the Force.

Well, that view did lead directly to 99% of the Jedi Order and all of its influence being purged from the face of the galaxy. Empirical evidence of results, if nothing else, indicates there was a flaw in this worldview.

[Sotharsyl]

In the RotJ novelization, Luke's able to sense that the Rancor is not evil, just dumb, mistreated, and lashing out at everything around it.

That might qualify as "sensing the presence or absence of evil in a non-Force User."

In the Zahn book Allegiance, set 6 months after the Battle of Yavin, Luke uses this a few times.

Ok so in the end Jedi have so many Force enhanced or derived senses that that they could, at least the powerful ones, sense evil,thank you for the references.

[KingofMadCows]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mokhjML3C0

[Rawhide]

The first thing I would like to point out is that, despite the use of the term in some game mechanics, there is no such thing as "The Light Side of the Force". There is the Force, and there is the Dark Side of the Force. They are not equal and opposite cosmic forces, one is simply a different way of using the other. Anything that states otherwise is contrary to what's established in the films.

The Expanded Universe disagrees with you, specifically the animated The Clone Wars. In there they go to a place where the force is stronger than anywhere else. In that place sits three guardians, a daughter aligned with pure light side, a son aligned with pure dark side, and a father keeping everything in balance. Spoilers about the episode below.

Anakin is asked to take the place of the father, who is dying, and thus restore balance to the force as the chosen one. Given that this takes place before Episode 3, you can guess his choice.

[Cespenar]

The Expanded Universe disagrees with you, specifically the animated The Clone Wars. In there they go to a place where the force is stronger than anywhere else. In that place sits three guardians, a daughter aligned with pure light side, a son aligned with pure dark side, and a father keeping everything in balance. Spoilers about the episode below.

Anakin is asked to take the place of the father, who is dying, and thus restore balance to the force as the chosen one. Given that this takes place before Episode 3, you can guess his choice.

The same Clone Wars where Mace Windu has DBZ-like levels of power? :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Well, that view did lead directly to 99% of the Jedi Order and all of its influence being purged from the face of the galaxy. Empirical evidence of results, if nothing else, indicates there was a flaw in this worldview.


Well, that view did lead directly to 99% of the Jedi Order and all of its influence being purged from the face of the galaxy. Empirical evidence of results, if nothing else, indicates there was a flaw in this worldview.
http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11947/12234273.jpg

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Expanded Universe disagrees with you, specifically the animated The Clone Wars. In there they go to a place where the force is stronger than anywhere else. In that place sits three guardians, a daughter aligned with pure light side, a son aligned with pure dark side, and a father keeping everything in balance. Spoilers about the episode below.

Anakin is asked to take the place of the father, who is dying, and thus restore balance to the force as the chosen one. Given that this takes place before Episode 3, you can guess his choice.

There is a reason Star Wars has levels of canon. I've mentioned it before, and it's in someone's signature. This flatly contradicts the movies (original trilogy and prequel trilogy), so it officially doesn't count.

Also I don't know which Clone Wars this was, but the one I tried watching was terrible.

[Rawhide]

There is a reason Star Wars has levels of canon. I've mentioned it before, and it's in someone's signature. This flatly contradicts the movies (original trilogy and prequel trilogy), so it officially doesn't count.

Also I don't know which Clone Wars this was, but the one I tried watching was terrible.

"The Clone Wars", not "Clone Wars". The 3D CGI one.

And I'm well aware of the levels of canon. However, the original poster specified "to the most obscure EU material you know of" (and this, while not original trilogy canon, is far from obscure - the series is tightly overseen by George Lucas himself).

[Nerd-o-rama]

But if the EU contradicts things that aren't EU, it still doesn't count, or at the very least - since nitpicking about canon is something I'm loathe to do - it's an interpretation of the Force that vastly differs from what was originally established.

[Rawhide]

But if the EU contradicts things that aren't EU, it still doesn't count, or at the very least - since nitpicking about canon is something I'm loathe to do - it's an interpretation of the Force that vastly differs from what was originally established.

I'm not so sure it "vastly differs". It has been a long time since I've watched the original three movies but from memory, while it was never referred to by name, the light side of the force was heavily implied.

It's like when you talk about being lucky. You're talking about good luck, not bad luck, despite the fact that luck technically means both. The Jedi simply mentioned "The Force" because it was simplier and, to them, ment the light side. They referred to the dark side only when they needed to qualify a specific side.

[Sotharsyl]

"The Clone Wars", not "Clone Wars". The 3D CGI one.

And I'm well aware of the levels of canon. However, the original poster specified "to the most obscure EU material you know of" (and this, while not original trilogy canon, is far from obscure - the series is tightly overseen by George Lucas himself).

And as a personal preference if there are 2 viewpoints which if we take only the movies as canon are debatable, but in the EU there is something which unambiguously support one of the view points from the movies I am going to side with the "implied movie +confirmed EU" over "implied movie".

[Devonix]

Hello, and welcome SW buffs I have a question about the Force and it's interaction with non Jedi and non Sith and I'm hoping you can help answer my question, if you so chose I'll accept any cannon answer from a scene in the movies to the most obscure EU material you know of.

The question is can one who is not attuned to the Force but who acts as how one might expect a Jedi or Sith to act be sensed as "aligned" to one side of the Force.

Now doubtlessly force adepts can sense emotions and have a nice progression from fear to ... but let's say a Jedi or Sith if you think it counts has entered a dinner and sits down at the counter.

Now there's a patron who is minding his own business eating a bit bored but safe can the Jedi use his mastery of the Force determine if the man is:

a war criminal on the run?
a serial killer?
a weapons trafficker?
a man who donates all his money and time to orphans?
or some other action which is aligned with one Side or the other?



Yes Jedi and Sith can sense the sensations and instincts of all sentient life. They can tell if some people are likely waiting in ambush by feeling their heightened emotions or the danger ect.

They can't tell a person's background but can feel that a person is someone who is self sacrificing or rutheless.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm not so sure it "vastly differs". It has been a long time since I've watched the original three movies but from memory, while it was never referred to by name, the light side of the force was heavily implied.

It's like when you talk about being lucky. You're talking about good luck, not bad luck, despite the fact that luck technically means both. The Jedi simply mentioned "The Force" because it was simplier and, to them, ment the light side. They referred to the dark side only when they needed to qualify a specific side.

I mainly started going with the lack of dualism here to make the prophecy of Anakin bringing balance to the Force at least make sense as something the Jedi would want to pursue. If there's two dualistic sides and the "Light Side" is reigning whole high hog over the Dark Side at the time, why in the hell do the Light Side patriarchs want to bring "balance" to the Force? That would make no sense, or at least it would make no sense for them not to expect to get killed. This only makes sense if there's "balance" and the distortion of balance caused by the Dark Side.

Of course, Anakin brought balance by killing almost literally every trained Force User at the time anyway and forcing his son to start the whole Jedi tradition over from scratch, but that's dramatic irony for you.


Really, though, all we have to go on is the interpretations of Jedi within the story, most of whom (particularly in the prequel trilogy) are shown to be at the very least out of touch with both social and physical reality; a sedentary bunch of old men, for the most part. The Force is an ineffable concept that gets interpreted and explained in different ways even between a master (Qui-Gon) and his student (Obi-Wan) based on their different experiences of it. All I can really get for sure is that selfish emotions are the Dark Side and things that aren't the Dark Side tend to be selfless or self-eliminating: recognizing oneself as part of the universe more than one's own transient wants.

[Xondoure]

No, for two reasons:
1. Force users can only detect other Force users. In DND terms, it's Detect Magic, not Detect Alignment.
2. Light side requires you to reject your basic emotions instead of accepting that they're an integral part of you, dark side requires you to act like a spoiled, selfish brat all the time. Most people do neither, even if they are clearly good or evil.

This is not entirely correct for a few reasons, most already mentioned. There is no light side, and the whole restricted from attachment is very PT and ultimately what destroyed them.

See the Jedi Order had become so obsessed with avoiding the temptation of the dark side they had cut themselves off. Forgetting that the first step along the path to the dark side is fear, including fear of the dark side. Hence the rather warped version we see in the prequel trilogy that managed to turn Anakin against them simply because they feared he might.

Someone who has true balance in the force accepts their emotions, and has control over them. They are able to act with the universe rather than manipulating it for their own selfish desires, but in order to act with it they must also be a part of it, and truly understand it.

Just my two credits.

[KingofMadCows]

If you go by certain interpretations, there is also the element of peace vs. conflict in the Force, and there has to be a balance between the two.

Peace brings stability and harmony but it can also lead to stagnation and decay.

Conflict often leads to depravity and unnecessary cruelty but much can be learned from struggle and competition.

By the time of the Star Wars movies, the Republic and the Jedi have remained static for thousands of years. Through that time, they have been slowly losing their way.

The spirit of cooperation and compromise that had been the foundation of the Republic had given way to selfishness and corruption. Whereas once the Republic existed so that all member worlds could benefit from the alliance, individual worlds were now much more concerned with their own well being at the expense of other worlds. The worlds of the Republic were willing to exploit each other but were not willing to help or defend each other. Well, at least that's what the prequels were supposed to show. Instead we get some pointless crap about a trade dispute and a separatist movement with no clear goals.

[McStabbington]

If you go by certain interpretations, there is also the element of peace vs. conflict in the Force, and there has to be a balance between the two.

Peace brings stability and harmony but it can also lead to stagnation and decay.

Conflict often leads to depravity and unnecessary cruelty but much can be learned from struggle and competition.

By the time of the Star Wars movies, the Republic and the Jedi have remained static for thousands of years. Through that time, they have been slowly losing their way.

The spirit of cooperation and compromise that had been the foundation of the Republic had given way to selfishness and corruption. Whereas once the Republic existed so that all member worlds could benefit from the alliance, individual worlds were now much more concerned with their own well being at the expense of other worlds. The worlds of the Republic were willing to exploit each other but were not willing to help or defend each other. Well, at least that's what the prequels were supposed to show. Instead we get some pointless crap about a trade dispute and a separatist movement with no clear goals.

I disagree strongly, although it's important to note that I disagree for reasons of preference rather than because you are, strictly speaking, not drawing from the canon. Put simply, when answering the simple question "What is the Force", Lucas is all over the map. Sometimes it's a mystical power. Sometimes it's a physical force like gravity or electromagnetism. And sometimes it's an infection. Because of that, Lucas never gives a clear conception about what "balancing" this Force might entail. I suspect that Lucas himself doesn't know or care, and simply fudges whenever he needs the story to work one way or another.

That being said, let me explain one view, consistent with some of the canon (particularly the original trilogy), that I think is preferable to the one you just laid out. You see, our culture draws a great deal of emphasis in how it thinks from our religious heritage. Just like Augustine or Aquinas, we tend to think of good and bad in binary terms: you either showed the virtue of determination or the vice of sloth, the virtue of temperance or the vice of gluttony, etc. Even the meanings of our words have changed over the centures to reflect this fact: the modern word temperance, for instance, derives from the Latin temperantia, which means "self-control" and signified the ability to moderate one's intake of wine and food. We however use it to mean complete denial of one's intake of seemingly sinful food and drink: the Women's Christian Temperance Society of the 1800's, for instance, was a band of radicals who attacked saloons and sought the absolute abolition of alcohol.

But the very fact that the word has changed its meaning suggests that binary thinking is not the only way of thinking available. And if you look at Roman stoicism or Aristotelian ethics, you see that the Latin conception in fact perfectly reflected their conception of virtue: virtue in their thought was not acting to deny some vicious impulse perfectly, but rather to act habitually in such a way that you avoided both competing vices on a spectrum of possible actions.

No doubt that makes little or no sense, so I'll provide an example. Consider the virtue of courage: in our thinking, courage is usually seen as the binary opposite and absence of cowardice when faced with a fearful situation. But in the Greek thinking, there are actually two vices that one needs to consider. If one always runs from a fearful situation no matter the circumstance, that's displaying the vicious action of cowardice, the Greeks would agree. But Aristotlian ethics also points our, quite sensibly, that if you always run into a dangerous situation regardless of the risk, that's not virtuous either. That's just being rash and foolish, and it ignores the fact that sometimes the most courageous thing to do is to retreat to fight another day. Nor is it throwing oneself into battle simply because one is predisposed to do so; that's just being pugnacious rather than virtuous. Courage, then, is using one's judgment (the closest possible translation is "pure practical reason", but judgment is a close enough analogue for present circumstances) to look at the given situation, evaluate all possible options, and consciously pick that action that best avoids the competing vices of cowardice and rashness. As a side note, it's important to note that this "golden mean" isn't always equally between the vices; the courageous action for instance is usually much closer to the rash action than it is to the cowardly action. But it neatly keeps the distinction intact at all times.

So bringing that concept back to the Force, the Force would seem to be something that is accessed by people who have diligently trained themselves to reach that modal point between competing vices and also helps them continue to do so. It's a mystical energy field that allows for knowledge of that golden mean and helps you maintain the balance between the pulls either way towards vice. The Dark Side, then, is tapping into that spiritual connection not to maintain one's position, but to further ones vicious impulses one way or another. If a Jedi's fear of dying causes him to lash out at others through the Force and strike them down, it's a cowardly act and an act of the Dark Side. Similarly, if he gets angry at others and rushes heedlessly into the fight to cut them down, that's also an act of the Dark Side, but this time he's acting rashly. The Dark Side is using ones spiritual attunement to the Force to further one's vicious impulses, an act which seemingly also warps the fabric of the Force around you.

I prefer this view of the force partly because it's entirely consistent with the original trilogy, it's inconsistent only with the parts of the prequel trilogy I consider Canon Discontinuity anyway, it makes sense, and (perhaps most importantly) it allows me to thik of Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi as exactly what they were supposed to be: people who were awesome because of their great wisdom, patience and virtue, and not because they could use the Force like a really big mana pool despite the fact that they were doddering old buffoons.

[KingofMadCows]

Except the Force is also a guiding power like destiny. There are places, like Dagobah, that are "strong in the dark side." There is clearly an external element that pulls on people in one direction or the other.

[leafman]

There are places, like Dagobah, that are "strong in the dark side." There is clearly an external element that pulls on people in one direction or the other.

I think places like the Sith temple on Dagobah are strong in the Dark Side because of the strong residual energies left behind by the Sith, they probably did some pretty horrible acts in the temple. I don't remember the temple having the ability to sway the thoughts of people that are near it or enter it though. Yoda didn't seem to worry about sending Luke in there.

[Battleship789]

Hello, and welcome SW buffs I have a question about the Force and it's interaction with non Jedi and non Sith and I'm hoping you can help answer my question, if you so chose I'll accept any cannon answer from a scene in the movies to the most obscure EU material you know of.

The question is can one who is not attuned to the Force but who acts as how one might expect a Jedi or Sith to act be sensed as "aligned" to one side of the Force.

Now doubtlessly force adepts can sense emotions and have a nice progression from fear to ... but let's say a Jedi or Sith if you think it counts has entered a dinner and sits down at the counter.

Now there's a patron who is minding his own business eating a bit bored but safe can the Jedi use his mastery of the Force determine if the man is:

a war criminal on the run?
a serial killer?
a weapons trafficker?
a man who donates all his money and time to orphans?
or some other action which is aligned with one Side or the other?

The short answer is Yes, but not with that much accuracy.

Force users can sense the surface feelings/thoughts of most beings (though some can keep these under wraps) and feel a sense of unease if near a being who means harm to themselves or others or a sense of warm/peace when near a being who is kind. However, unless you effectively mindrape them, you won't be able to tell any of the things mentioned in your list and these feelings can be offset by circumstance. Only the general mindset of a non-force sensitive being is "visible," as it were, and this gets muddled in the presence of many other beings (like a crowded street or market) or with training to shield one's mind.

[Xondoure]

Except the Force is also a guiding power like destiny. There are places, like Dagobah, that are "strong in the dark side." There is clearly an external element that pulls on people in one direction or the other.

Destiny isn't a guiding power, it is simply the end destination. (It doesn't have to guide your path because whatever path you follow is the destined path.)

As for Dagobah I liked it better when that cave simply reflected the conflict inside Luke, and wasn't some nexus of evil. But it's been a while since I've seen it, maybe it was always some sort of dark side kindling center. :smallsigh:

[MCerberus]

Destiny isn't a guiding power, it is simply the end destination. (It doesn't have to guide your path because whatever path you follow is the destined path.)

As for Dagobah I liked it better when that cave simply reflected the conflict inside Luke, and wasn't some nexus of evil. But it's been a while since I've seen it, maybe it was always some sort of dark side kindling center. :smallsigh:

You'd be think someone would, at the very least, put a sign up on Yavin or something as a warning.

[KingofMadCows]

Destiny isn't a guiding power, it is simply the end destination. (It doesn't have to guide your path because whatever path you follow is the destined path.)

Please, let's not get bogged down by semantics, you know what I mean.

The Force has been shown to have the power to influence people's actions. It can guide people, droids too, into making certain decisions.


As for Dagobah I liked it better when that cave simply reflected the conflict inside Luke, and wasn't some nexus of evil. But it's been a while since I've seen it, maybe it was always some sort of dark side kindling center. :smallsigh:

Even if the cave did just reflect conflict inside people, it's still related to the dark side of the Force and its ability to influence people.

And as I mentioned before, certain interpretations of the Force makes it more about peace vs. conflict rather than just good vs. evil.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You'd be think someone would, at the very least, put a sign up on Yavin or something as a warning.

Well, at the time the Sith were there, it was beyond nowhere. It was where nowhere went to get away from it all. By the time galactic civilization got remotely close, everyone had forgotten about Exar Kun (possibly because the Exile killed them all).

[Nibleswick]

Well, at the time the Sith were there, it was beyond nowhere. It was where nowhere went to get away from it all. By the time galactic civilization got remotely close, everyone had forgotten about Exar Kun (possibly because the Exile killed them all).

Probably more because Exar Kun used almost everyone on the planet as ritual sacrifices so that he could gain immortality, and the Jedi killed the rest with orbital bombardment.

[MCerberus]

Well, at the time the Sith were there, it was beyond nowhere. It was where nowhere went to get away from it all. By the time galactic civilization got remotely close, everyone had forgotten about Exar Kun (possibly because the Exile killed them all).

Clone Wars (the good one)
Hey Anakin, we're all pretty mad you went off to fight that Sith there.
-Yah, but she's dead. I killed her atop a dark temple of darkside power
Okay, we better not investigate THAT

[Philistine]

As for Dagobah I liked it better when that cave simply reflected the conflict inside Luke, and wasn't some nexus of evil. But it's been a while since I've seen it, maybe it was always some sort of dark side kindling center. :smallsigh:

I'm pretty sure Yoda says the cave is "strong with the Dark Side" right before he sends Luke inside. The many questions raised by this (Like, what does that even mean? How could it come to be that way? And why would Yoda set up housekeeping right next to something like that?) were left to the imagination, though.

[hamishspence]

I liked Zahn's take on it- Yoda set up shop there because when a strong light side source (him) and a strong dark side source (the cave) are close to each other, neither are detectable from long distance.

Which is why, while the Emperor's able to sense Luke "There is a great disturbance in the Force- we have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker" he never senses Yoda and sends forces to Dagobah.

The reason for it- a powerful Dark force user died there. Zahn had him die at Yoda's hands (implied in Heir to the Empire, shown in another character's telling of the event, in Vision of the Future). However, a Star Wars Tales story (later declared canonical) has it happen at the hands of another Jedi called Minch, of the same species as Yoda.

[Philistine]

I am aware of Zahn's explanations, yes. :smallamused: The movies left the matter unexplored*, though, and that's what I was talking about.

* An observation, not a criticism. In fact, I preferred it that way - IMO, myths are rarely better for attempts to explain them sensibly.

[hamishspence]

while leaving it up to the imagination can be preferable (I can't think of any occasion where I've seen someone comment approvingly on the introduction of midi-chlorians) some authors do produce very good stories when they explain something from Star Wars.

A. C Crispin's Han Solo trilogy, for example, covering the events referred to in Lando's "It takes a lot of guts coming here, after what you pulled" comment. As well as Han "dropping his spice at the first sign of an Imperial starcruiser".

[Philistine]

The difference, to me, is that I see those two examples as providing additional context rather than "explaining" as such. Also, neither of the remarks being fleshed out is especially mythic - they're sufficiently mundane that we get the gist even without knowing the details.

Unrelated, I don't recall the "no such thing as 'the Light Side'" interpretation ever being mentioned onscreen - certainly not in either trilogy. I know it's Word of George, but AFAIK it was never explicitly stated until the DVD commentary. (That's why you had several years of people boggling at the prophecy from TPM, because Jedi talked about "restoring balance" like that was a desirable outcome when as far as anyone knew the Light Side had been in control for centuries if not millennia. If the "no LS" thing had ever been stated anywhere up until then, said prophecy wouldn't have caused so much consternation.)

[Xondoure]

The difference, to me, is that I see those two examples as providing additional context rather than "explaining" as such. Also, neither of the remarks being fleshed out is especially mythic - they're sufficiently mundane that we get the gist even without knowing the details.

Unrelated, I don't recall the "no such thing as 'the Light Side'" interpretation ever being mentioned onscreen - certainly not in either trilogy. I know it's Word of George, but AFAIK it was never explicitly stated until the DVD commentary. (That's why you had several years of people boggling at the prophecy from TPM, because Jedi talked about "restoring balance" like that was a desirable outcome when as far as anyone knew the Light Side had been in control for centuries if not millennia. If the "no LS" thing had ever been stated anywhere up until then, said prophecy wouldn't have caused so much consternation.)

It wasn't mentioned because the concept wasn't there. I'm not sure in what way they could even have brought it up. :smallconfused: It's not their fault that the dualistic nature of western society bled all over it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

To be fair, there's also the dualistic nature of several Chinese-originated religions (Taoism, specifically, with the concept of yin and yang) which the Jedi were already loosely based off of. The difference is that the Dark Side isn't a desirable trait to be balanced and moderated with a "Light Side" as yang and yin are - the Dark Side is the distortion of that balance.

Of course, you could say that the Jedi in the prequels were also distorted because they had had their ideals warped to focus on ignoring emotions rather than acknowledging and balancing them, so they were distorted in another way.

[WalkingTarget]

To be fair, there's also the dualistic nature of several Chinese-originated religions (Taoism, specifically, with the concept of yin and yang) which the Jedi were already loosely based off of. The difference is that the Dark Side isn't a desirable trait to be balanced and moderated with a "Light Side" as yang and yin are - the Dark Side is the distortion of that balance.

See, this is almost how I've always imagined the Force. The issue isn't that there's a light side-dark side dualism that models yin-yang, it's a step higher than that.

The Force is Tao, The Way, i.e. both yin and yang. All that is not Tao is the Dark Side. Yin and yang do not represent a good/evil dualism. In this arrangement, The Force itself represents harmony and balance and the Dark Side is anything that is counter to that balance. Therefore, destroying the Sith, Dark Side users all, will restore balance regardless of if there are any Jedi left - this always struck me as what GL meant by the prophecy since it makes the Jedi's interpretations of things less stupid. It also handily resolves why nobody in the films ever mentions a "light side".

My 2 credits at least.

Edit - I need more sleep. I think I'm agreeing with you here, N-o-R, right? I thought the Taoism parallels were obvious from the OT.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, you're agreeing with me, you just went into a lot more detail than I did about the parallels between the Tao and the Force, and really explained things better.

[Xondoure]

To be fair, there's also the dualistic nature of several Chinese-originated religions (Taoism, specifically, with the concept of yin and yang) which the Jedi were already loosely based off of. The difference is that the Dark Side isn't a desirable trait to be balanced and moderated with a "Light Side" as yang and yin are - the Dark Side is the distortion of that balance.

Of course, you could say that the Jedi in the prequels were also distorted because they had had their ideals warped to focus on ignoring emotions rather than acknowledging and balancing them, so they were distorted in another way.

Pretty much what I said earlier in the thread so we are agreeing. :smallsmile:

PT order was so scared of the dark side that that fear led them down the path to the dark side.

[MLai]

This discussion was really elucidating. Thanks guys! :smallsmile:

[KingofMadCows]

Pretty much what I said earlier in the thread so we are agreeing. :smallsmile:

PT order was so scared of the dark side that that fear led them down the path to the dark side.

I'm pretty sure it was their stupidity that led them down the path of the dark side.

[Xondoure]

I'm pretty sure it was their stupidity that led them down the path of the dark side.

Well you have to be pretty stupid to be afraid of being afraid because if you're afraid you're on an inevitable path of doom. Not exactly the healthiest mindset to be sure.

[KingofMadCows]

Well you have to be pretty stupid to be afraid of being afraid because if you're afraid you're on an inevitable path of doom. Not exactly the healthiest mindset to be sure.

There is also the stupidity of training a young boy who gives every Jedi the willies and was prophesied to bring doom and destruction, not bother to save his mother from slavery so that she gets brutally tortured to death, have him trained by someone who he constantly complains about, openly disrespect him at just about every opportunity, letting him get close to another person who also gives the Jedis the willies, and completely ignore his desperate pleas for help and guidance.

Then there was that time when they decided to put their trust in a massive army of clones that was ordered by a dead Jedi and made from a bounty hunter who was working for their enemy. And then not bother to investigate how exactly the clone army was order, how it was funded, and what connection the bounty hunter had with their enemy.

And there's also when Yoda and Obi-Wan decided to go kill Palpatine and Anakin even though they have security recordings showing Anakin slaughtering children and pledging his loyalty to Palpatine, who had revealed himself as a Sith Lord, which they could have shown to the Senate to expose Palpatine's treachery. Then when they do go fight Sidious and Anakin, they decide to split up and fight them one on one instead of ganging up and killing Sidious first and then go after Anakin.

[Battleship789]

There is also the stupidity of training a young boy who gives every Jedi the willies and was prophesied to bring doom and destruction, not bother to save his mother from slavery so that she gets brutally tortured to death, have him trained by someone who he constantly complains about, openly disrespect him at just about every opportunity, letting him get close to another person who also gives the Jedis the willies, and completely ignore his desperate pleas for help and guidance.

Then there was that time when they decided to put their trust in a massive army of clones that was ordered by a dead Jedi and made from a bounty hunter who was working for their enemy. And then not bother to investigate how exactly the clone army was order, how it was funded, and what connection the bounty hunter had with their enemy.

And there's also when Yoda and Obi-Wan decided to go kill Palpatine and Anakin even though they have security recordings showing Anakin slaughtering children and pledging his loyalty to Palpatine, who had revealed himself as a Sith Lord, which they could have shown to the Senate to expose Palpatine's treachery. Then when they do go fight Sidious and Anakin, they decide to split up and fight them one on one instead of ganging up and killing Sidious first and then go after Anakin.

First: I don't think that Anakin gives them the willies and the prophecy (which they treat with a lot of skepticism, especially Windu) doesn't necessarily shout death and destruction, it just happened that way. For Shmi, I don't think the Jedi really knew what to do there. That was a flub by the Jedi due to there being no precedent for someone of Anakin's age joining the order... I think you are overstating Anakin's respect (or lack thereof) for Obi-Wan. All politicians give Jedi the willies. :smalltongue: Semi-relevant link is semi-relevant. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bHDLtCE3pec#t=164s) They actually DO listen to him, but he doesn't tell them everything that is bothering him, one of the biggest rules of therapy. (Ex: Anakin visits Yoda and asks him about dreams. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't tell Yoda everything and goes to Sidious for a more satisfactory vague answer.)

The middle: to be fair, they do investigate it, just not on screen. This isn't Star Noir, after all. And they get awfully close to figuring out who Sidious is just prior to the events of Episode 3.

On the last part: Obi-Wan would have probably just gotten in the way against Sidious. As to why they didn't gang up on Vader first: they probably split up so they could attack them as close to simultaneously as possible so the one who was attacked second couldn't surround himself with clone troopers. Even Jedi have problems with numbers.

[KingofMadCows]

First: I don't think that Anakin gives them the willies and the prophecy (which they treat with a lot of skepticism, especially Windu) doesn't necessarily shout death and destruction, it just happened that way. For Shmi, I don't think the Jedi really knew what to do there. That was a flub by the Jedi due to there being no precedent for someone of Anakin's age joining the order... I think you are overstating Anakin's respect (or lack thereof) for Obi-Wan. All politicians give Jedi the willies. :smalltongue: Semi-relevant link is semi-relevant. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bHDLtCE3pec#t=164s) They actually DO listen to him, but he doesn't tell them everything that is bothering him, one of the biggest rules of therapy. (Ex: Anakin visits Yoda and asks him about dreams. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't tell Yoda everything and goes to Sidious for a more satisfactory vague answer.)

Except they specifically said that Anakin was dangerous and that his path was shrouded in Episode One. They even decided against training Anakin because of that.

I know what they could have done with Shmi, not leave her in slavery with a bomb planted in her brain.

Also, that Jedis are supposed to be the keepers of peace and justice. So how can they even tolerate a planet ruled by slavers and criminals? Oh wait, I guess they're busy with important things like trade disputes.

Am I overstating Anakin's disrespect for Obi-Wan? Sure Anakin's cordial around Obi-Wan but as soon as Obi-Wan's out of sight, he complains about how "he's overly critical! He never listens! He just doesn't understand. It's not fair!" and how "It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous! He knows I'm already more powerful than he is. He's holding me back!"

That first scene is especially amusing since Anakin starts by praising Obi-Wan and within about half a minute, he goes into an angry jealous rant about how much he dislikes Obi-Wan and how everything's not fair.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical for Yoda to talk about letting go of attachments with regards to Anakin's dream when the Jedi themselves are trying to fulfill a prophecy?

Also, couldn't Anakin have just lied about who he dreamed about? He could have said that he dreamed about Obi-Wan or even Yoda dying.


The middle: to be fair, they do investigate it, just not on screen. This isn't Star Noir, after all. And they get awfully close to figuring out who Sidious is just prior to the events of Episode 3.

Except the Clone Army was a huge deal. It was pretty much the prequel's equivalent of the Death Star.

Also, why do the Jedi even have the authority to order a massive galaxy conquering army?


On the last part: Obi-Wan would have probably just gotten in the way against Sidious. As to why they didn't gang up on Vader first: they probably split up so they could attack them as close to simultaneously as possible so the one who was attacked second couldn't surround himself with clone troopers. Even Jedi have problems with numbers.

If attacking Sidious together was too risky then Obi-Wan could have waited to see how the battle was going and jump in if Yoda got in trouble. If Obi-Wan had been there after that Force blast knocked Sidious and Yoda back, he could have either saved Yoda from the fall or chopped Sidious's head off when he was disoriented.

And it wasn't really necessary to kill Anakin since Palpatine is the one in power. It's not like Anakin can just take over after Palpatine dies since he has real no authority.

[Coidzor]

Also, why do the Jedi even have the authority to order a massive galaxy conquering army?

Kamino was pretty mercenary as I recall, and they don't have that authority.

The Jedi just shrugged and ignored the fact that the army was an obvious set up between Jango Fett and ostensibly being ordered by a guy who'd been dead for years. Because you don't look a gifthorse in the mouth when you're being set up for having a galactic civil war.


It's not like Anakin can just take over after Palpatine dies since he has real no authority.

Indeed. Also, really whiny and not at all politically savvy.

[hamishspence]

The book Darth Plagueis shows the first stages of the setup for the clone army- where the money came from, why the Kaminoans were willing to do it (they're willing to work for the Jedi more than for the Republic), and so on.

Labyrinth of Evil shows what happens to said Jedi (who really did place the order) - he was killed to keep it a secret from the Jedi Order.

[KingofMadCows]

The book Darth Plagueis shows the first stages of the setup for the clone army- where the money came from, why the Kaminoans were willing to do it (they're willing to work for the Jedi more than for the Republic), and so on.

Labyrinth of Evil shows what happens to said Jedi (who really did place the order) - he was killed to keep it a secret from the Jedi Order.

The EU writers do work hard to plug up all the plot holes and rationalize all the idiotic crap Lucas introduced in the prequels.

I especially liked how Genndy Tartakovsky added that scene at the end of Clone Wars to explain why General Grievous was so weak and had that cough.

[hamishspence]

That said, the scene seems to have been retconned. Labyrinth of Evil makes no mention of Mace crushing Grieveous's torso during the assault on Coruscant, and the series The Clone Wars has Grievous exhibit the "coughing" from very early on.

James Luceno seems to be the guy given a lot of this sort of work- writing the prequel to Revenge of the Sith, the sequel to Revenge of the Sith - Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader (which explains why Vader has never personally visited Tatooine again- thus why Obi-Wan keeps Luke there rather than leaving the moment he finds out Vader's still alive) and he also co-wrote various books on the Star Wars locations.

Cloak of Deception explains what the "baseless accusations of corruption" aimed at Chancellor Valorum in Episode I actually are.

Darth Plagueis covers Palpatine's mentor- and it turns out Palpatine was mostly truthful about his abilities. He really was able to "keep the ones he cared about from dying" and "influence the midi-chlorians to create life".

[MLai]

I know what they could have done with Shmi, not leave her in slavery with a bomb planted in her brain.
Also, that Jedis are supposed to be the keepers of peace and justice. So how can they even tolerate a planet ruled by slavers and criminals? Oh wait, I guess they're busy with important things like trade disputes.
.......
Except the Clone Army was a huge deal. It was pretty much the prequel's equivalent of the Death Star.
.......
Also, why do the Jedi even have the authority to order a massive galaxy conquering army?
.......
If attacking Sidious together was too risky then Obi-Wan could have waited to see how the battle was going and jump in if Yoda got in trouble.
Why the hell didn't I realize any of these things while watching that damned movie? :smalleek:
I guess the even-more-awful romantic dialogue just drowned out in my brain everything else. The analytical part of my brain can only handle so much suckage at one time. :smallconfused:

[KingofMadCows]

Kamino was pretty mercenary as I recall, and they don't have that authority.

The Jedi just shrugged and ignored the fact that the army was an obvious set up between Jango Fett and ostensibly being ordered by a guy who'd been dead for years. Because you don't look a gifthorse in the mouth when you're being set up for having a galactic civil war.

But if they actually took a second to think about the situation, they'd realize that the Kaminoans are the much more likely suspects in the whole mess.

What do the Separatists have to gain from assassinating Padme? Padme was the strongest advocate against the military creation act. By keeping her alive, the Republic remains without an army and defenseless. By getting rid of her, the Republic creates an army and is able to counter the Separatist threat. Ordering the assassination of Padme is in direct opposition to the Separatists' interests.

The Kaminoans on the other hand, would benefit a lot from the death of Padme and the passage of the military creation act. They would get funding from the Republic to continue building the clone army. That would result in rising tensions between the Republic and the Separatists, potentially creating a cold war where again the Kaminoans would get increased funding for production and research. If there was a real war, the Kaminoans get to ramp up production even more, making them richer, and maybe even gain a reputation as the saviors of the Republic.

[Battleship789]

Edit:


Except they specifically said that Anakin was dangerous and that his path was shrouded in Episode One. They even decided against training Anakin because of that.

Touché. They did end up changing their minds on that front, albeit in a forced manner.


Also, that Jedis are supposed to be the keepers of peace and justice. So how can they even tolerate a planet ruled by slavers and criminals? Oh wait, I guess they're busy with important things like trade disputes.

Out of their jurisdiction, technically. While that doesn't excuse them, it is a justification. Unfortunately, it happens quite often, both in-universe and IRL.


Am I overstating Anakin's disrespect for Obi-Wan? Sure Anakin's cordial around Obi-Wan but as soon as Obi-Wan's out of sight, he complains about how "he's overly critical! He never listens! He just doesn't understand. It's not fair!" and how "It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous! He knows I'm already more powerful than he is. He's holding me back!"

That first scene is especially amusing since Anakin starts by praising Obi-Wan and within about half a minute, he goes into an angry jealous rant about how much he dislikes Obi-Wan and how everything's not fair.

True, though this isn't evident during Episodes 1 and 3, only 2, which is arguably the most angsty of them...


Isn't it a bit hypocritical for Yoda to talk about letting go of attachments with regards to Anakin's dream when the Jedi themselves are trying to fulfill a prophecy?

Also, couldn't Anakin have just lied about who he dreamed about? He could have said that he dreamed about Obi-Wan or even Yoda dying.

First point: Um, I don't think the Jedi are attempting to fulfill it. There are some that don't believe at all and the others are more neutral. Even those who believe are doing so in a more "let it flow" kind of way.

Second: With how vague Anakin is being in that scene, Yoda still seems suspicious. Out-right lying would have been ridiculously suspicious.


Also, why do the Jedi even have the authority to order a massive galaxy conquering army?

As mentioned, they don't, but the Republic was pretty much forced into accepting it.


If attacking Sidious together was too risky then Obi-Wan could have waited to see how the battle was going and jump in if Yoda got in trouble. If Obi-Wan had been there after that Force blast knocked Sidious and Yoda back, he could have either saved Yoda from the fall or chopped Sidious's head off when he was disoriented.

And it wasn't really necessary to kill Anakin since Palpatine is the one in power. It's not like Anakin can just take over after Palpatine dies since he has real no authority.

I'm not sure that Obi-Wan could have stayed hidden during that fight, though it is possible. That could have worked...

Sidious is rather sneaky and may have already given orders that Vader is to be treated as number two to the troopers, effectively granting him authority by power. And, if Anakin reaches his full potential, there really isn't anything Yoda and Obi-wan could do about it. They need to take him down before he can surround himself with others and survive for long enough to reach that potential.

End edit


But if they actually took a second to think about the situation, they'd realize that the Kaminoans are the much more likely suspects in the whole mess.

What do the Separatists have to gain from assassinating Padme? Padme was the strongest advocate against the military creation act. By keeping her alive, the Republic remains without an army and defenseless. By getting rid of her, the Republic creates an army and is able to counter the Separatist threat. Ordering the assassination of Padme is in direct opposition to the Separatists' interests.

The Kaminoans on the other hand, would benefit a lot from the death of Padme and the passage of the military creation act. They would get funding from the Republic to continue building the clone army. That would result in rising tensions between the Republic and the Separatists, potentially creating a cold war where again the Kaminoans would get increased funding for production and research. If there was a real war, the Kaminoans get to ramp up production even more, making them richer, and maybe even gain a reputation as the saviors of the Republic.

I respectfully disagree with this line of reasoning: the Kaminoans actually benefit more by not killing Padme. If Padme is killed then the Military Creation Act would have been put in place and the Republic would have started a normal war effort, with recruiting/conscription/training, as Kamino and it's army of clones hadn't been discovered yet. When the Republic finally finds the clone army, they will either simply assimilate it into their own army (which is predominantly not clones) or have a large enough standing army that the clones aren't necessary. Either way, the Kaminoans lose out. However, if Padme doesn't die then the Republic has no standing army and when they come into conflict with the Separatists they have to turn to Kamino and their clones, as happened in the movie: the Jedi and the Republic government and military (as it is) have a very limited amount of choices: accept the clones, with whatever problems that may entail, and have a chance at victory or reject the clones and possibly lose right out the gate/have a very large army bought up by the Separatists.

[KingofMadCows]

I respectfully disagree with this line of reasoning: the Kaminoans actually benefit more by not killing Padme. If Padme is killed then the Military Creation Act would have been put in place and the Republic would have started a normal war effort, with recruiting/conscription/training, as Kamino and it's army of clones hadn't been discovered yet. When the Republic finally finds the clone army, they will either simply assimilate it into their own army (which is predominantly not clones) or have a large enough standing army that the clones aren't necessary. Either way, the Kaminoans lose out. However, if Padme doesn't die then the Republic has no standing army and when they come into conflict with the Separatists they have to turn to Kamino and their clones, as happened in the movie: the Jedi and the Republic government and military (as it is) have a very limited amount of choices: accept the clones, with whatever problems that may entail, and have a chance at victory or reject the clones and possibly lose right out the gate/have a very large army bought up by the Separatists.

Who said that the Republic would have recruited or conscripted its soldiers? That would just give the Separatists more incentive to invade since it would take time for the Republic to build an army that way. The Separatists would have a better chance of winning if they attack right after the creation of the act while the Republic's army was still in its infancy and therefore still weak and extremely vulnerable, rather than after the Republic has finished their recruiting/conscription/training efforts.

Not to mention the fact that they were already aware that the Separatists had an army of their own so they didn't have the time to actually build up a military regardless.

And who would volunteer for the army when they could just make disposable droid or clone soldiers?

[Devonix]

I really would like to see how they put something in to explain just what happened to the Republic's standing army. Did they just dispand it after the war with the Sith Empire and never consider making another?

[Battleship789]

I really would like to see how they put something in to explain just what happened to the Republic's standing army. Did they just dispand it after the war with the Sith Empire and never consider making another?
I think it is mostly due to a thousand or so years of relative peace. No need to keep a standing army when there hasn't been a true military conflict for a millennium. The Jedi and police forces probably work for anything short of a multi-planet war.


Who said that the Republic would have recruited or conscripted its soldiers? That would just give the Separatists more incentive to invade since it would take time for the Republic to build an army that way. The Separatists would have a better chance of winning if they attack right after the creation of the act while the Republic's army was still in its infancy and therefore still weak and extremely vulnerable, rather than after the Republic has finished their recruiting/conscription/training efforts.

Not to mention the fact that they were already aware that the Separatists had an army of their own so they didn't have the time to actually build up a military regardless.

And who would volunteer for the army when they could just make disposable droid or clone soldiers?

How else would they get soldiers? There is a reason why the Republic had to take the clone army. The Separatists already had a rather large lead on war droid production/technology and the Republic would have taken at least a year to be on an even footing with either Droids or regular soldiers. The Republic was really in over it's head and without the Clone army would have probably lost. Luckily, (or unluckily, depending on who you root for) Palpatine was pulling the strings and wanted the Republic to win, as it was so corrupted and bloated that he could take over it fairly easily.

Also, people still volunteered for the armed forces during the clone wars, though the majority were clones, afaik.

[Nibleswick]

On top of that each planet has it's own armies and navies. Mostly they deal with pirates and other such groups. In fact Alderan had a long and proud military tradition, till they scraped all of it after the Clone Wars.

[KingofMadCows]

First point: Um, I don't think the Jedi are attempting to fulfill it. There are some that don't believe at all and the others are more neutral. Even those who believe are doing so in a more "let it flow" kind of way.

Except the main Jedis like Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda believed in it (for no real good reason I might add).


Second: With how vague Anakin is being in that scene, Yoda still seems suspicious. Out-right lying would have been ridiculously suspicious.

Why would Yoda be suspicious? Anakin dreamed of his mother dying and the Jedi failed to act on that. Yoda should see this as a chance to fix that mistake.


As mentioned, they don't, but the Republic was pretty much forced into accepting it.

Except they do. It was a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas who had the Kaminoans start making the clone army 10 years ago. That not only means the Jedi Order had the power and the resources to create such an army but a single Jedi master could authorize it.


I'm not sure that Obi-Wan could have stayed hidden during that fight, though it is possible. That could have worked...

Then how about Obi-Wan goes to confront Sidious and while he's getting his ass kicked, Yoda jump in and stabs Sidious in the back? Or how about while Yoda is fighting Sidious, Obi-Wan stays far away from the fight and shoots Sidious with a sniper rifle when he gets the chance? Or how about Yoda brings a thermal detonator and blows himself up along with Sidious if he starts losing the fight? Or how about just toss a couple of thermal detonators into the room that Sidious was sitting in?


Sidious is rather sneaky and may have already given orders that Vader is to be treated as number two to the troopers, effectively granting him authority by power. And, if Anakin reaches his full potential, there really isn't anything Yoda and Obi-wan could do about it. They need to take him down before he can surround himself with others and survive for long enough to reach that potential.

Anakin would have no power over the Senate. Also, as mentioned before, there is a security recording of Anakin slaughtering innocent children and then pledging himself to Sidious, who had revealed himself as a Sith Lord.


How else would they get soldiers? There is a reason why the Republic had to take the clone army. The Separatists already had a rather large lead on war droid production/technology and the Republic would have taken at least a year to be on an even footing with either Droids or regular soldiers. The Republic was really in over it's head and without the Clone army would have probably lost. Luckily, (or unluckily, depending on who you root for) Palpatine was pulling the strings and wanted the Republic to win, as it was so corrupted and bloated that he could take over it fairly easily.

Also, people still volunteered for the armed forces during the clone wars, though the majority were clones, afaik.

So everything worked out in favor of the Kaminoans. The Republic had no choice but to accept their clone army since they would not be able to recruit/conscript/train a regular army fast enough to meet the Separatist threat. That makes the Kaminoans the prime suspect for the attempted assassination on Padme as well as the whole manufactured crisis with the Separatists.

[Battleship789]

Except the main Jedis like Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda believed in it (for no real good reason I might add).

Out of the main Jedi in the series (it is a prophecy in a realm where the Force causes observable and quantifiable changes. To at least take a look at said prophecy seems rather reasonable, imo.):

Qui-Gon: Truly believes in the prophecy and is staunch proponent thereof.

Obi-Wan: Is skeptical at the beginning, especially when introduced to it by Qui-Gon, but seems to believe it completely near the end of Ep. 3, with his lines after his duel with Anakin.

Mace Windu: As far as I can tell, Mace Windu doesn't really believe it and voices his skepticism quite often.

Yoda: Too hard to tell with Yoda.

Also, I fail to see any hypocrisy in Yoda talking about letting go of attachments while he may/may not be looking towards a prophecy.


Why would Yoda be suspicious? Anakin dreamed of his mother dying and the Jedi failed to act on that. Yoda should see this as a chance to fix that mistake.

IIRC, Anakin never tells anyone but Padme and Palpatine about the dreams or the resulting slaughter of the Sand People.


Except they do. It was a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas who had the Kaminoans start making the clone army 10 years ago. That not only means the Jedi Order had the power and the resources to create such an army but a single Jedi master could authorize it.

I don't think the Kaminoans care much about who is buying as long as they have enough cash up front. The fact that the Kaminoans created the clones on the order of a Jedi doesn't mean that the Jedi legally have the power to do so.


Anakin would have no power over the Senate. Also, as mentioned before, there is a security recording of Anakin slaughtering innocent children and then pledging himself to Sidious, who had revealed himself as a Sith Lord.

True. My guess is that the senate wouldn't particularly care/know what being a Sith Lord entails. However, the killing of children should be enough to alienate the senate from Vader. However, it is important to remember that according to Palpatine, the Jedi are Republic enemy number one and it could have been twisted that the children are too indoctrinated to be saved. (Heartless and evil, but this is Palpatine we are talking about.)


So everything worked out in favor of the Kaminoans. The Republic had no choice but to accept their clone army since they would not be able to recruit/conscript/train a regular army fast enough to meet the Separatist threat. That makes the Kaminoans the prime suspect for the attempted assassination on Padme as well as the whole manufactured crisis with the Separatists.

:smallconfused: But if the assassination attempt had worked then the Kaminoans would have had a rather large army and no one to buy it... I can buy that they would be a suspect for being a driving force towards the Republic and Separatists going to war, but not an assassination attempt.

[MLai]

This must have been asked before:

Since the Separatist Alliance are openly friendly/cognizant/fearful to the Sith Lords, and without Palpatine's "help" the Republic was surely incapable of combating the Separatists... Why didn't Palpatine just back the Separatists from start to finish? Why risk throwing a Xanatos Gambit that wasn't necessary?

You might say "in order to annihilate the Jedi Council without a protracted war and manhunt." But Palpatine was only successful in that, because Anakin came on the scene. He couldn't have been sure Anakin would be able and willing to do what he did, back before the events of RotS. So what was his original plan?

[Coidzor]

This must have been asked before:

Since the Separatist Alliance are openly friendly/cognizant/fearful to the Sith Lords, and without Palpatine's "help" the Republic was surely incapable of combating the Separatists... Why didn't Palpatine just back the Separatists from start to finish? Why risk throwing a Xanatos Gambit that wasn't necessary?

You might say "in order to annihilate the Jedi Council without a protracted war and manhunt." But Palpatine was only successful in that, because Anakin came on the scene. He couldn't have been sure Anakin would be able and willing to do what he did, back before the events of RotS. So what was his original plan?

If you want a strong, unified state, you don't want the malcontents and rubes who you've given casus belli to dismantle the state to win, as then you'd have a fragmented, fractious broken thing.

Whereas purging the malcontents by having them alienate themselves from the whole and by striving against the whole, test it and make it stronger....

[KingofMadCows]

Out of the main Jedi in the series (it is a prophecy in a realm where the Force causes observable and quantifiable changes. To at least take a look at said prophecy seems rather reasonable, imo.):

Qui-Gon: Truly believes in the prophecy and is staunch proponent thereof.

Obi-Wan: Is skeptical at the beginning, especially when introduced to it by Qui-Gon, but seems to believe it completely near the end of Ep. 3, with his lines after his duel with Anakin.

Mace Windu: As far as I can tell, Mace Windu doesn't really believe it and voices his skepticism quite often.

Yoda: Too hard to tell with Yoda.

Also, I fail to see any hypocrisy in Yoda talking about letting go of attachments while he may/may not be looking towards a prophecy.

It's hypocritical because the desire to fulfill the prophecy is a result of an attachment to the Jedi Order. How likely do you think they would have wanted the prophecy fulfilled if they knew that it could result in the destruction of the Jedi order and the deaths of countless billions, perhaps trillions?


IIRC, Anakin never tells anyone but Padme and Palpatine about the dreams or the resulting slaughter of the Sand People.

Not telling anyone about slaughtering the Sand People makes sense but not telling anyone about the dream or the death of his mother is stupid.


I don't think the Kaminoans care much about who is buying as long as they have enough cash up front. The fact that the Kaminoans created the clones on the order of a Jedi doesn't mean that the Jedi legally have the power to do so.

But where exactly could they have gotten the cash if not from the Republic?

Just think of how massive the clone army had to have been to stand up to the Separatists' forces. According to Dooku, ten thousand systems rallied to the Separatists' side. Ten thousand systems, who knows how many planets are in those systems. That could mean tens of billions of Separatist soldiers in addition to their droid army.

Where else could Sifo-Dyas have gotten the funding if not from the Republic?


True. My guess is that the senate wouldn't particularly care/know what being a Sith Lord entails. However, the killing of children should be enough to alienate the senate from Vader. However, it is important to remember that according to Palpatine, the Jedi are Republic enemy number one and it could have been twisted that the children are too indoctrinated to be saved. (Heartless and evil, but this is Palpatine we are talking about.)

The way that Palpatine turned the people against the Jedi makes no sense. Why would everyone suddenly think the Jedi are horrible evil people after the Jedi have been guardians of peace and justice for thousands of years, not to mention how the Jedi were the generals in the war against the Separatists?


:smallconfused: But if the assassination attempt had worked then the Kaminoans would have had a rather large army and no one to buy it... I can buy that they would be a suspect for being a driving force towards the Republic and Separatists going to war, but not an assassination attempt.

Except if the Republic passes the military creation act and begins building an army of their own then that would force the Separatists' hand. If the Separatists did nothing then the Republic would eventually build an army powerful enough to challenge them. The faster the Separatists attack, the greater their chances of winning will be since the Republic will be vulnerable while it's trying to build up an army.

The Republic would have no choice but to buy the clone army as soon as it passes the military creation act as it would give pause to the Separatists and give them the forces needed to repel an attack. And considering how the Republic would be desperate for those troops, the Kaminoans have the leverage to negotiate a very favorable deal. Heck, the Kaminoans could even threaten to join the Separatists unless the Republic promises to buy only their army and weapons for the duration of the war and ensuing occupation, eliminating any potential competition.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I really would like to see how they put something in to explain just what happened to the Republic's standing army. Did they just dispand it after the war with the Sith Empire and never consider making another?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Judicial_Forces

[hamishspence]

It's hypocritical because the desire to fulfill the prophecy is a result of an attachment to the Jedi Order. How likely do you think they would have wanted the prophecy fulfilled if they knew that it could result in the destruction of the Jedi order and the deaths of countless billions, perhaps trillions?

In the Revenge of the Sith novelization "the Jedi Order" is Mace Windu's secret attachment, in the same way that Padme is Anakin's.

So it has been noted that, despite the "attachment leads to jealousy" claim of Yoda's, it still exists- just not to individuals.

Anakin's "attachment to friends" is noted as problematic- even if they're not aware of Padme, they're aware of that.

[Battleship789]

It's hypocritical because the desire to fulfill the prophecy is a result of an attachment to the Jedi Order. How likely do you think they would have wanted the prophecy fulfilled if they knew that it could result in the destruction of the Jedi order and the deaths of countless billions, perhaps trillions?

Eh, still not seeing the hypocrisy as the Jedi don't particularly drive for the prophecy to be fulfilled, imo.


Not telling anyone about slaughtering the Sand People makes sense but not telling anyone about the dream or the death of his mother is stupid.
Agreed, though this is Anakin we are talking about...



But where exactly could they have gotten the cash if not from the Republic?

Just think of how massive the clone army had to have been to stand up to the Separatists' forces. According to Dooku, ten thousand systems rallied to the Separatists' side. Ten thousand systems, who knows how many planets are in those systems. That could mean tens of billions of Separatist soldiers in addition to their droid army.

Where else could Sifo-Dyas have gotten the funding if not from the Republic?
I think he did get the funding through the Republic, but it may have been siphoned through illegal channels.


The way that Palpatine turned the people against the Jedi makes no sense. Why would everyone suddenly think the Jedi are horrible evil people after the Jedi have been guardians of peace and justice for thousands of years, not to mention how the Jedi were the generals in the war against the Separatists?

The people believed that the Jedi had attempted a coup to assassinate a fairly well liked and respected leader in Palpatine. The "scars" he showed to the Senate probably turned quite a few people to his cause, as they would believe that the Jedi had done the damage to Palpatine.


Except if the Republic passes the military creation act and begins building an army of their own then that would force the Separatists' hand. If the Separatists did nothing then the Republic would eventually build an army powerful enough to challenge them. The faster the Separatists attack, the greater their chances of winning will be since the Republic will be vulnerable while it's trying to build up an army.

The Republic would have no choice but to buy the clone army as soon as it passes the military creation act as it would give pause to the Separatists and give them the forces needed to repel an attack. And considering how the Republic would be desperate for those troops, the Kaminoans have the leverage to negotiate a very favorable deal. Heck, the Kaminoans could even threaten to join the Separatists unless the Republic promises to buy only their army and weapons for the duration of the war and ensuing occupation, eliminating any potential competition.

Eh, I think the only reason for the Kaminoans to assassinate Padme is so that there will be no doubt that the Separatists and the Republic will go to war. As pointed out by yourself, as long as the outcome is not a truce then the Kaminoans will benefit greatly (even if they get the short end from Palpatine). I guess that is a strong enough incentive for them to be considered suspects. Well said.

[hamishspence]

Anakin does tell Obi-Wan about the death of his mother- in the novel Clone Wars: Wild Space, during a flashback scene showing a wounded Anakin being treated after the loss of his arm. He's quite angry about it.

RoTS novel's reference to Anakin's overattachment to friends was:
"I trust him with my life," Obi-Wan said simply. "And that is precisely the problem."

The other two Jedi Masters watched him silently while he tried to summon the proper words.

"For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met- loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are at the heart of being a Jedi, he- he will never, I think, truly understand."

He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner- one day sooner- were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."

"As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."

"Any Jedi," Obi-Wan said, "except Anakin."

Yoda and Mace exchanged glances, both thoughtfully grim. Obi-Wan guessed they were remembering the times Anakin had violated orders- the times he had put at risk entire operations, the lives of thousands, the control of entire planetary systems- to save a friend.

More than once, in fact, to save Obi-Wan.

"I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him."

Mace and Yoda gazed at him steadily, and Obi-Wan had to lower his head.
"Because," he admitted reluctantly, "he knows I would do the same for him."

"Understand exactly where your concern lies, I do not." Yoda's green eyes had gone softly sympathetic. "Named must your fear be, before banish it you can. Do you fear that perform his task, he cannot?"

"Oh, no. That's not it at all. I am firmly convinced that Anakin can do anything. Except betray a friend. What we have done to him today..."

"But that is what Jedi are," Mace Windu said. "That is what we have pledged ourselves to: selfless service-"

Obi-Wan turned to stare once more toward the assault ship that would carry Yoda and the clone battalions to Kashyyyk, but he could see only Anakin's face.

If he asked me to spy on you, do you think I would do it?

"Yes," he said slowly. "That's why I don't think he will ever trust us again."
He found his eyes turning unaccountably hot, and his vision swam with unshed tears.

"And I'm not entirely sure he should."

[MLai]

Novels shouldn't be used as an excuse for the self-contained PT's shortcomings. Though if you simply want to elaborate on a character or whatever thru the novel's expansions of plot/story, then yes that's valid.

[KingofMadCows]

When you think about it, the Kaminoans should have been behind everything that happened in the prequels.

Who had the most to gain from the Separatist movement, the assassination of Padme, and the Clone Wars?

A third party arms dealer like Kamino would no doubt get a lot more business due to the political turmoil within the Republic resulting from the Naboo crisis and the ensuing Separatist movement.

Padme was against the military creation act and killing her would mean passage of the bill. The passage of the military creation act would also have forced the Separatist's hand since it would be better for them to strike first while the Republic was just starting to build their army rather than wait until the Republic's military becomes powerful enough to retake the Separatist worlds. But luckily for the Republic, there just happens to be a ready made army of clones on Kamino that they can buy.

And isn't it funny how the Kaminoans are masters of cloning technology and could use cloned spies, infiltrators, and saboteurs against the Separatists to sway the war in favor of the Republic. Heck, they could have replaced many of the Separatist leaders with clones even before the war. That could also help to explain the Trade Federation/Separatists' extreme behavior that led to the war in the first place.

And what happens after the war? The Clone Army becomes the dominant force in the galaxy.

[Nibleswick]

When you think about it, the Kaminoans should have been behind everything that happened in the prequels.

Who had the most to gain from the Separatist movement, the assassination of Padme, and the Clone Wars?

A third party arms dealer like Kamino would no doubt get a lot more business due to the political turmoil within the Republic resulting from the Naboo crisis and the ensuing Separatist movement.

Padme was against the military creation act and killing her would mean passage of the bill. The passage of the military creation act would also have forced the Separatist's hand since it would be better for them to strike first while the Republic was just starting to build their army rather than wait until the Republic's military becomes powerful enough to retake the Separatist worlds. But luckily for the Republic, there just happens to be a ready made army of clones on Kamino that they can buy.

And isn't it funny how the Kaminoans are masters of cloning technology and could use cloned spies, infiltrators, and saboteurs against the Separatists to sway the war in favor of the Republic. Heck, they could have replaced many of the Separatist leaders with clones even before the war. That could also help to explain the Trade Federation/Separatists' extreme behavior that led to the war in the first place.

And what happens after the war? The Clone Army becomes the dominant force in the galaxy.

Except that after the war most of the clones are replaced with regular people, and no one ever hears anything about Kamino again.

[KingofMadCows]

Except that after the war most of the clones are replaced with regular people, and no one ever hears anything about Kamino again.

It's impossible for the prequels to make sense and still maintain continuity with the original trilogy.

After all, you don't hear Obi-Wan say to Luke, "I stole this lightsaber from your father after I chopped off his arms and legs and left him to burn to death next to a lake of lava."

[MLai]

Wait, Palpatine stopped using clones?

Why... would an evil overlord stop using an army of elite bounty hunters who are programmed to be completely loyal to him, and start conscripting normal Johns who can't shoot straight?

On that note, I just realized how ridiculous and futile many of the Clone Wars episodes are. Every time you have an episode showing the heroism and character-building of clone characters, all you really should think about is "Am I supposed to like him/them? They all turned on the Jedi at the flip of a switch in the end." And yet those episodes build on the clones as good guys with a straight face.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The EU fills in a bit of a clone rebellion, namely the Kaminoans trying to take the clone army back. The loyalist stormtroopers wreck the cloning facilities and eliminate their infrastructure, and the empire switches to conscripts and volunteers trained on places like Carida so that the prequels can actually pretend to almost sort-of maybe be in the same continuity with the EU books.

As for how the clones turned on the Jedi in episode 3, it literally was the flip of a switch - they were subliminally programmed to follow that particular order without question, regardless of any emotional connection to the Jedi. At least, that's the impression I got from Obi-Wan's friend Cody in the movie, I'm not sure it was ever explicitly stated.

[mangosta71]

It's impossible for the prequels to make sense and still maintain continuity with the original trilogy.

After all, you don't hear Obi-Wan say to Luke, "I stole this lightsaber from your father after I chopped off his arms and legs and left him to burn to death next to a lake of lava."
Now, now. Obi-wan only chopped off ONE of Anakin's arms.

Someone mentioned how stagnant the Republic is. Seems to me that it's not just the Republic/PT Jedi Order - the whole universe is stuffed with stagnation. How many thousands of years does the history of the SW universe cover? And yet there's not a single technological innovation? I guess it sort of makes sense for the Jedi to retain their signature weapon, but are they so powerful commercially that they prevent any other sort of weapon development? During the EU stuff after Yavin, everyone is still running around with equipment that wouldn't have been out of place or unusual during the KotOR era (is that 4000 or 10000 or 40000 years previous? I can never remember).

And what's the deal with the Empire downgrading to unshielded fighters during the time between the PT and the OT?

[Psyren]

Why the hell didn't I realize any of these things while watching that damned movie? :smalleek:
I guess the even-more-awful romantic dialogue just drowned out in my brain everything else. The analytical part of my brain can only handle so much suckage at one time. :smallconfused:

Got some popcorn handy? Watch these (http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/) two (http://www.confusedmatthew.com/The-Star-Wars-Prequels.php) reviews of the prequels.

[Lord Raziere]

Star Wars is space fantasy so….that stupid fantasy tech stagnation trope rears it ugly head, surprise surprise.

but I guess that in universe its like that they've already reached the pinnacle of technology and that they can't advance any farther cause…..they arguably already got to their highest point. all they can really do is modify or play around with what they have.

but I think the original trilogies fighters are cheaper and are meant to be y'know…..cannon fodder, no shielding means more can be produced to swarm people with them.

[MCerberus]

Star Wars is space fantasy so….that stupid fantasy tech stagnation trope rears it ugly head, surprise surprise.

but I guess that in universe its like that they've already reached the pinnacle of technology and that they can't advance any farther cause…..they arguably already got to their highest point. all they can really do is modify or play around with what they have.

but I think the original trilogies fighters are cheaper and are meant to be y'know…..cannon fodder, no shielding means more can be produced to swarm people with them.

I prefer to think that the universe is in a long-term technical regression. There have been centuries of warfare ripping the fabric of society and each time nobody thinks it's worth it to get to where they were before.

And between cataclysms, mass stagnation.

[Coidzor]

I prefer to think that the universe is in a long-term technical regression. There have been centuries of warfare ripping the fabric of society and each time nobody thinks it's worth it to get to where they were before.

And between cataclysms, mass stagnation.

Years later we'll find out that Xim the Despot was actually a super scientist that ruled over a golden age of technological heights that made the people grow bored with their godhood.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well he did have man-portable lasers, as opposed to the apparently cheaper and less complex plasma-blasters of more recent civilizations...

[Nibleswick]

Well he did have man-portable lasers, as opposed to the apparently cheaper and less complex plasma-blasters of more recent civilizations...

Not to mention smaller, more energy efficient, and more powerful energy blasters that the newer civilization uses.:smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

As for how the clones turned on the Jedi in episode 3, it literally was the flip of a switch - they were subliminally programmed to follow that particular order without question, regardless of any emotional connection to the Jedi. At least, that's the impression I got from Obi-Wan's friend Cody in the movie, I'm not sure it was ever explicitly stated.

It's implied in the RoTS novelization to be that way- Cody's response is "as it was before he'd even woken in his creche".

The novel Order 66 makes it one of a big list of contingency orders.

In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader we see a squad of clones who refused to obey the order.

[Psyren]

In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader we see a squad of clones who refused to obey the order.

Wait, what? How is that possible?

[hamishspence]

Vader was curious too:


"What was the cause of the troopers' insubordination, Master?" Vader asked.

"Contagion." Palpatine sneered. "Contagion brought about by fighting alongside the Jedi for so many years. Clone or otherwise, there is only so much a being can be programmed to do. Sooner or later even a lowly trooper will become the sum of his experiences."

Light years distant in his inner sanctum, Palpatine leaned toward the holotransceiver's cam.

"But you will demonstrate to them the perils of independent thinking, Lord Vader, the refusal to obey orders."

"To obey you, Master."

"To obey us, my apprentice. Remember that."

[hamishspence]

The first thing I would like to point out is that, despite the use of the term in some game mechanics, there is no such thing as "The Light Side of the Force".

Even the most recent novels seem to use the term though- in Aaron Allston's Fate of the Jedi: Conviction (2011), Luke and Ben are referred to in Luke's thoughts as "light-siders"

and before that, "teaching them about the light side" referring to a dark side user, is used in the New Jedi Order novel Rebel Stand. There's probably dozens more.

Going right back to Return of the Jedi, there's Luke's "I can turn him back, to the good side". Which while not quite the same, does suggest the same sort of "good-evil duality" rather than simply "amoral-evil duality"- if the "non-dark side" has no inherent moral value in itself.

Whether or not it's an accurate term, it does seem to be used a lot.

[Xondoure]

Even the most recent novels seem to use the term though- in Aaron Allston's Fate of the Jedi: Conviction (2011), Luke and Ben are referred to in Luke's thoughts as "light-siders"

and before that, "teaching them about the light side" referring to a dark side user, is used in the New Jedi Order novel Rebel Stand. There's probably dozens more.

Going right back to Return of the Jedi, there's Luke's "I can turn him back, to the good side". Which while not quite the same, does suggest the same sort of "good-evil duality" rather than simply "amoral-evil duality"- if the "non-dark side" has no inherent moral value in itself.

Whether or not it's an accurate term, it does seem to be used a lot.

It gets used a lot because writers are lazy and the EU established it as a thing a long time ago. But it doesn't really fit with the intended themes. And non-dark side does have a moral value. It is about balance with the natural forces and compassion for all living things. But light/dark implies that you need both. Because light is just as blinding as darkness when used in excess. That is not the case because balance in the force means that no one is slaughtering children for belonging to a monastery.

[hamishspence]

That is not the case because balance in the force means that no one is slaughtering children for belonging to a monastery.

Some Jedi were slaughtering children "because Force Visions warned them to" in the Knights of the Old Republic comic book series, though. Their own trainees, no less.

The difference between "the Force" and "the light side of the force" may be merely semantic:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chosen_One
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Light_side_of_the_Force

[Nerd-o-rama]

My point was, and everything you've cited either agrees or doesn't disagree with it, that there is not a "balance of good and evil" theme with the Force. There is the Force, and there is the warped and selfish use of the Force called the Dark Side. "Light Side" is merely a lazy way of referring to "not the Dark Side" that implies a lot of stuff about the Force that simply isn't true.

[hamishspence]

I would agree that, even with the use of terms like "dark side" and "light side" the "balance" doesn't require that both be present.

The idea that "the force" which the Jedi wield is strongly affiliated with "goodness" may be a bit more shaky.

"The force" as morally neutral, as described in various "Unifying Force" descriptions sometimes makes more sense.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think the main source of confusion might be trying to cram a "universal energy field that connects all living things" into a highly-specific cultural definition of good and evil. Even in-universe, this doesn't entirely work, let alone from the perspective of real-world cultures like the ones we live in.

[hamishspence]

Some authors are more prone to emphasising that "the dark side" in the form of anger, fear, and so on, is natural, inherent to all life, etc.

In Shatterpoint, from Mace Windu's perspective:


I don't see Vastor as evil. Not as a truly bad man. Yes, he radiates darkness- but so do all the Korunnai. And the Balawai. His is the darkness of the jungle, not the darkness of the Sith. He does not live for power, to cause pain and dominate all he surveys. He simply lives. Fiercely. Naturally. Stripped of the restraints of civilization.

He is less a man than he is an avatar of the jungle itself. Dark power flows into him and out again but it does not seem to touch him. He has a savge purity that I might envy, were I not a Jedi and sworn to the light.

Black is the presence of every colour.

He doesn't make the darkness, he only uses it. His inner darkness is a reflection of the darkness of his world; and it darkens the world around him in turn. Internal and external darkness create each other, just as do internal and external light: that is the underlying unity of the Force.

[hamishspence]

The first thing I would like to point out is that, despite the use of the term in some game mechanics, there is no such thing as "The Light Side of the Force". There is the Force, and there is the Dark Side of the Force. They are not equal and opposite cosmic forces, one is simply a different way of using the other. Anything that states otherwise is contrary to what's established in the films.

That said, what makes the Dark Side of the Force the Dark Side seems to be less "evil" and more "using the Force or otherwise acting based on selfish emotions". Anger, fear, hatred, even monogamous love (taken too far) are selfish reactions. If someone using the Force lets those emotions guide their actions, they are said to be using the Dark Side. Someone (or something, or somewhere) heavy and thick with that kind of emotion would be obvious to a Force Sensitive in one way or another, because sensing others' emotions is a basic part of sensing the Force. Having a strong presence in the Force (i.e. being a Jedi) would "amplify" those feelings to other Force Sensitives - they'd be feeling the same emotions over a stronger connection.

By contrast, not using the Dark Side seems to mean "using the Force or otherwise acting based on reason or selfless emotions - for the 'good' of the Galaxy as a whole, rather than yourself". You can't really sense someone being rational, exactly - although I suppose a Force Sensitive focusing their senses on someone could notice their lack of emotion, or drive to help others, or the like.

When looking up "there is no light side" I found a viewpoint that combines "The balance between light and dark side is necessary to the universe as a whole" with "For Force-Users, the dark side is more like a perversion":

JeffCram 05-26-2010, 04:38 PM
This is something I posted a year or so ago on the Old Republic boards. It's my take on the Force, cultivated over the decades.

Of course, it is in no way canon, or "the last word" or whatever. But, seeing different perspectives might help you out.

Then again, it may just muddy the waters....

I hope it's the former.

People think if the Light Side and Dark Side as two equal, and opposite components of the Force. In my opinion, this holds up only when the "human" element is removed. (of course, by human I mean sentient beings, ie; Force-wielders).

In essence:

Light Side = Life, Light, positive energy, growth, healing, etc.

Dark Side = Death, Darkness, negative energy, decay, entropy, etc.

Both components are completely necessary for the Galaxy as a whole and coexist in balance.

The problem is, certain emotional states are conducive to the use of one Side or another. So when seen in relation to a living being, you could see that the Light Side promotes the continuation of life through growth, healing, positive energy and all that jazz, and the Dark Side ceases to be an opposite component, as it is being wielded by a contradiction - a living being harnessing the power of death and decay. In my opinion this makes the Dark Side less of necessary opposite of the Light, and more of a perversion of the Force.

In the ultimate irony, the Dark Side corrupts and destroys those who choose to wield it, all the while convincing them that they're becoming more powerful, stronger, better. In the end, however, they are being rotted away from the inside by forces intrinsically opposed to life, strength and sanity.

Case in point: Read "Shadows of the Empire." In it, there's a great scene describing Darth Vader in his chamber, healing himself with the Force. He summons all his anger, resentment, and bitterness to use the Dark Side to heal his lungs and limbs. Unfortunately, because he feels joy at having done so, the Dark Side flees and he reverts to his crippled state. The Dark Side cannot support positive change.

Eons ago, in the Star Wars universe, wise Force-users discovered this dichotomy. Essentially coming to the conclusion "Life good. Death bad.", they begin to put in place practices that promote positive use of the Force and the beginnings of the Jedi are born. Over time, more and more traditions are studied and molded to bring us to the Jedi Code. (Keep in mind, there are some accounts that show the Code during TOR's time being slightly different: "There is emotion, yet peace...etc." which makes the Jedi slightly less hypocritical. I mean, you can't say "There is no emotion." and then be telling Luke "Stretch out with your feelings!"

In the end, if you're big on doing whatever it takes, burning down those in your way and being tired of "earning some respect", then the Dark Side is for you.
Just keep in mind, it's like a drug. You might be able to get some serious butt-kicking done while on LSD, but it's actually poison you're willingly ingesting for a possible short-term benefit. Long run? Not so rosy.

The Jedi base their understanding of good/evil based on what is best for a living being, and a civilization. Love, hope, happiness, compassion, order, restoration, knowledge. Or Rage, selfishness, destruction, fear, ignorance and despair.

Does this seem a bit closer to the intended picture- when both the EU and the movies are taken into account?