Snowflake Wardance dillema

[Kaeso]

I'm statting up a melee bard for a PbP game. It's currrently a level 5 bard, but I'm having my doubts about what my 6th level feat should be, because there's an issue with my 3rd level feat that makes me doubt.

Snowflake wardance is a powerful feat for bards, but is only usable with one handed slashing weapons. This means my bard can't use his greatsword to get 1.5x STR to his damage. Usually TWF is looked down upon around these parts, but wouldn't snowflake wardance be more effective if my bard used a dagger as a main-gauche? It would give him some extra damage to compensate for the fact that he can't hold his longsword in both hands, and with the +Cha to attack rolls the -2 penalty shouldn't be a huge problem, right?

Then again.... a bard can't pounce. What's your opinion, guys? Is TWF a good idea for a snowflake wardancer?

[Seerow]

If you have the feats to pull it off go for it. Generally a melee bard is pretty strapped for feats which will make two weapon fighting hard to pull off. It is however pretty nice if you do, especially if you get Dragonfire Inspiration as well, so you end up with +cha to hit and +lots of d6 damage, you're like a rogue on crack with less ways to shut you down and some spellcasting on the side.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Just take the first "two weapon fighting" feat, and buy the second one with gloves of the balanced hand (MiC)
Forget about the third, 2 extra attacks for just 1 feat is good enough, and you don't want to spend 2 more feats for 1 extra attack at a -10 penality

You will end up having 5 attacks instead of 3 at the end, which is +66% damage, for just 1 feat and 1 cheap item.
Totally worth it.

[Manateee]

I'm statting up a melee bard for a PbP game. It's currrently a level 5 bard, but I'm having my doubts about what my 6th level feat should be, because there's an issue with my 3rd level feat that makes me doubt.
This is my biggest beef with snowflake wardance. If you've optimized inspire courage, hitting is probably not an issue for you, so I'm just going to disregard the attack penalty.

Two Weapon fighting gets flak if done without bonus damage. Inspire courage can be an awful lot of bonus damage. It's generally acceptable on bards - though difficult to actually execute with their limited feat slots.

I generally prefer to get some natural weapon attacks onto my bards, if possible. Kobolds are good for that, as well as being generally favorable for charisma-based casters.

[Hunter Killer]

I would only grab those if you have already taken Melodic Casting and Versatile Spellcaster and just so happen to have feats left over.

If you can take flaws, then it's possible to fit in just about everything you need to do a Dragonfire Wardancer Two-Weapon Bard. If not, skip the TWF part and just grab something like Arcane Strike.

Hmm... Something like this:

1st: Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Two-Weapon Fighting, Versatile Spellcaster
3rd: Snowflake Wardance
6th: Knowledge Devotion
9th: Arcane Strike
12th: Improved-Two Weapon Fighting
15th: Words of Creation
18th: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (You'd need a few levels of a Full BAB class to pull this off; I'd suggest some Duskblade for Arcane Channeling)

[CapnVan]

Bear in mind that there are those of us who contend that TWF isn't compatible with Snowflake Wardance. Certainly, you'd want to get your DM's ruling on that while contemplating your options.

[Darrin]

Is TWF a good idea for a snowflake wardancer?

Snowflake Wardance is a trap. It either locks you into one-handed damage, or forces you into TWF... which most bards don't have the resources to really do well (in so far as it's possible to do well with TWF). TWF needs bonus damage, not bonus attack, so stick with Arcane Strike and use your 3rd level feat slot for something else, such as Song of the Heart.

[Talya]

Snowflake Wardance is a trap. It either locks you into one-handed damage, or forces you into TWF... which most bards don't have the resources to really do well (in so far as it's possible to do well with TWF). TWF needs bonus damage, not bonus attack, so stick with Arcane Strike and use your 3rd level feat slot for something else, such as Song of the Heart.

Bards get a lot of bonus damage. It's not that hard to be hitting +8d6 per attack with DFI.

Also note that a buckler is worn, not carried. If you want to make your offhand at least do something while you wait for TWF feats, feel free to put one on. It doesn't interfere with SFWD.

[Kaeso]

Thanks for your advice guys, but a lot of you seem to take dragonfire inspiration into account. The problem is that in this game "Dragon magic" isn't a permitted book. My character is a normal human bard without dragonfire inspiration. Does that change a lot? :smallconfused:

[kulosle]

Yes, and no. It doesn't change the advice we'll give you. Everyone will still say to optimize IC but it just means you will be pumping out a lot less damage.

Bards are good at whatever they try to do, but you usually have to start trying to do it at first level. What does your character look like so far? What class levels do you plan on taking in the future? What does the rest of the party look like? Whats the optimization level?

I personally don't like SW or TWF on my bards but that doesn't mean it can't be done, but you might be a little late to start trying.

Don't forget that you can switch out one of your types of bardic music for bardic feats. Switch suggestion for song of heart.

note: book restrictions is a good thing to have in the OP

[Manateee]

Even without Dragonfire inspiration, a crystal echoblade, Inspire courage and Knowledge devotion are an easy +17 attack/+27 damage to your and all allies' attacks. That's a pretty respectable bonus.

[Kaeso]

What does your character look like so far? What class levels do you plan on taking in the future? What does the rest of the party look like? Whats the optimization level?

My character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=362698)
The sheet can still be changed for a bit, but keep in mind that only core, spell compendium, complete X and races of X are allowed.

I'm planning to go bard 10/ sublime chord 10 (because it basically turns you into a sorcerer)

The rest of the party looks like this as far as I can tell:
1. Dragonwrought Kobold Rogue 2/Sorcerer 3
2. Human Monk 2/ Paladin 3
3. Thri-keen Cleric 5
4. Dwarf Fighter 5

This basically makes me the token skill monkey, but I got that covered with bardic knack. I'm basically trying to make that my primary function, while making melee and spell casting secondary (jack of all trades, master of none (or one: skill monkeying :smallbiggrin:)).

EDIT: You can probably already see it, but the optimisation level of my party seems to be mid level. I suspect that the kobold sorcerer might become an unseen seer (judging by the two rogue levels), and the cleric is... well... a cleric. The other two will probably become dedicated beatsticks.

[SamBurke]

This is my biggest beef with snowflake wardance. If you've optimized inspire courage, hitting is probably not an issue for you, so I'm just going to disregard the attack penalty.

Two Weapon fighting gets flak if done without bonus damage. Inspire courage can be an awful lot of bonus damage. It's generally acceptable on bards - though difficult to actually execute with their limited feat slots.

I generally prefer to get some natural weapon attacks onto my bards, if possible. Kobolds are good for that, as well as being generally favorable for charisma-based casters.

You wanna know how to take any penalty for 6k?

You wanna know how to get a DMG to the head by level 7, using a fighter?


Custom Wondrous items, baby. It costs 6,000 to enchant an item with continuous True Strike. That's +20 for 6k. To break it down, it's the price of masterwork item for +20. Oh. Flipping. Yes. :smallbiggrin:

Note: You should also find a way to enchant yourself with as many AC buffs as possible. DMGs deal D12 damage dice, you know. :smallwink:

[Seerow]

Continuous item of true strike doesn't work, by RAW.

[Need_A_Life]

RE: True Strike. 90k, actually. Quickened True Strike every round makes it (5*9*2000)gp :smallwink: And it'll only help your first attack in the round (as you can only use Quicken 1/round). Without Quicken, you'll spend a standard action activating it after each attack :smallwink:

Snowflake Wardance is a great investment for a Bard. Combine with the much-lauded Knowledge Devotion and spend 2 skill points picking up the "+5 to know stuff about monsters" skill trick from Complete Scoundrel.
Two-Weapon Fighting is a viable way for a Bard to do things, but remember you're a glass cannon, so don't neglect your defense.

TBH, when I've played Bard-like characters (buffing allies, skill-monkey etc.) I tend to use that as an excuse to never enter melee, so I can't speak from experience in that arena, but I promise you that such characters are great at "turtling" (becoming impossible to kill, but with limited offense), so consider going that route.

Also, Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer? Damn, I wish I had a GM who would allow that. -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +3 Int, +3 Wis, +3 Cha and Dragon type (able to pick up flight at 3rd level)? My pick for any dedicated arcanist.
For everything else, there's Warforged.

[hex0]

5th level bard you say? Why not take Spellthief (or trickster spellthief if possible) as your sixth level and take Master Spellthief as your feat. You'll at least get 1d6 sneak attack bonus and another trick (the ability to steal spells)

[kulosle]

Wait can you do that. I thought you got everything from leveling up at the same time. So you couldn't grab master spellthief because you don't have any levels of spell thief yet?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wait can you do that. I thought you got everything from leveling up at the same time. So you couldn't grab master spellthief because you don't have any levels of spell thief yet?

Right, because obviously the character spontaneously gained some skills after killing something, yet hasn't practiced anything to boost those skills. /sarcasm

[Yora]

Wait can you do that. I thought you got everything from leveling up at the same time. So you couldn't grab master spellthief because you don't have any levels of spell thief yet?

No, you get everything in the order Class Level > Skills > Feats (no idea where spells fall, but I guess under Class Level), so you explicitly can take a feat that requires a class level on the same character level you took your first level in that class.

[Bloodgruve]

Snowflake Wardance is in Frostburn. Is that resource allowed in your game?


GL
Blood

[kulosle]

Right, because obviously the character spontaneously gained some skills after killing something, yet hasn't practiced anything to boost those skills. /sarcasm

I was speaking by RAW. As DM I would probably allow it, but that't not usually what people are asking about here.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I was speaking by RAW.

Give me a source.

[kulosle]

Well I was simply asking, I wasn't sure myself. But further digging revealed, pg 87 of the players hand book that you can take a feat at the level that you gain the prerequisites.

[Manateee]

Totally unrelatedly, the thread title makes this sound like quite a pickle.

...

......

...............

>_>
*scurries off*

[Averis Vol]

if you want to go bard melee, i'd suggest taking one level in barb then going warchanter from complete warrior, at least to third level so you can get inspire recklessness. then you can use your high cha to get the most out of intimidate, with stuff like intimidating rage. and your warchanter levels still stack to determine the bonus of your bard music, only downside is you lose out on casting but if your going melee the spells aren't completely detrimental. ohh also better BaB and hit die.

[CapnVan]

I'm planning to go bard 10/ sublime chord 10 (because it basically turns you into a sorcerer)

The preferred build is Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 2/Virtuoso 2/SC 2/Virtuoso 8, increasing SC casting.

And, as Bloodguyre mentioned, Frostburn doesn't seem to be allowed, rendering the dilemma somewhat moot.

[Gullintanni]

The preferred build is Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 2/Virtuoso 2/SC 2/Virtuoso 8, increasing SC casting.

And, as Bloodguyre mentioned, Frostburn doesn't seem to be allowed, rendering the dilemma somewhat moot.

Bear in mind that Lyric Thaumaturge is not strictly necessary. Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/SC 2/Virtuoso 8 is entirely serviceable (and indeed quite powerful).

Keep in mind that if you're not using DFI, then you're using vanilla IC, which synergizes very well with Power Attack. IC increases to-hit, while DFI does not. Take advantage and you can get some pretty solid bonuses to static damage.

On the OP subject of Snowflake Wardance...whether it's beneficial or not is questionable at best. 2 to 1 Power Attack returns with vanilla IC is pretty potent. And you're still a bard. And if you're going the Sublime Chord route, you're probably going to want Melodic Casting.

[Talya]

I still prefer pure-classed bard without PrCs, making liberal use of ACFs to be good at EVERYTHING.

To see one I was using without DFI...note she can use every skill in the game and gets half her level (rounded up!) as a skill bonus -- though it doesn't stack with actual ranks.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=48368

(Martial Study - Foehammer is there, apart from being a decent maneuver, to give me Intimidate as a class skill so I can get doomspeak later.)