Help With Fighter Fighting Fights :D [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Leon

2012-01-24, 04:22 PM

Hello Guys!

Need a little help here. I was planning on doing an Fighter / Kensai on my adventure...but i am now at the Second Level and wanted to see if somebody can help me with some ideas.

He have an Bastard Sword, with focus on it by this momment. Any Idea? :smalltongue:

In a matter of hours you'll have a whole plan of leveling plotted out and a host of suggestions on how to be optimal (if that floats your boat).

In the meantime can we have a bit more info as its rather vague to what you want and can work with. I always have lots of Idea for a Character but need some basis to work from (i use Art a lot to inspire Characters).

Gavinfoxx

2012-01-24, 04:25 PM

Also, what sorts of things do you see the character doing that might need mechanical numbers of some sort to back them up? How do you see your character being relevant in melee? What does their bag of tricks/ skill set seem to entail? What are their competencies? How do you see them being able to be relevant outside of combat? What should they be good at?

D@rK-SePHiRoTH-

2012-01-24, 04:29 PM

He have an Bastard Sword, with focus on it by this momment. Any Idea? :smalltongue:
Get 1 level in the Exotic Weapon Master PrC to improve your damage when using the bastard sword with 2 hands. It will let you add 2 times your strength bonus instead of 1.5 times.

As a Kensai, try to enhance your weapon with special abilities rather than basic magic bonus. Ask the caster of your party to use a greater magic weapon on your signature weapon instead, to raise its enhancement bonus beyond +1.
Choose good special abilities like "collision", "metalline" and "valorous", the latter is especially good for charging characters that make use of the shock trooper/leap attack feats, even if you cannot pounce.

Kridias

2012-01-25, 07:48 AM

Ok, here are the infos :

The character by now is a fighter lv 2
Status :
Str: 16
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 15
Wis: 14
Cha: 15

Feats, exotic weapon (bastard sword), and focus on it. Improved Initiative and combat Focus..

I can take any book, but i am not allowed to use the classes from the Tome of Battle...
I am open to use multiclassing without problems.

About retraining i can talk with the Dm About it.

The group is composed by an human Monk, barbarian, rogue, druid and me. I was thinking on doing some kind of tactical damage dealer, using the combat forms to find the weaker one and send him to hell, so some kind of speed should help, and that is one of the reasons for the bastard and not the greatsword (and because the barbarian already have one).
This fighter is the second son of an now dead of an lord. If you guys want i can share his whole history.... (it won't be possible by This momment as i am on my phone, lol)

BUT, o there is one annoying rule that freaks me. The DM said that we are allowed to take only 10 lvs of prestige classes.. :(

Greenish

2012-01-25, 08:10 AM

The group is composed by an human Monk, barbarian, rogue, druid and me. I was thinking on doing some kind of tactical damage dealer, using the combat forms to find the weaker one and send him to hell, so some kind of speed should help, and that is one of the reasons for the bastard and not the greatsword (and because the barbarian already have one).
This fighter is the second son of an now dead of an lord. If you guys want i can share his whole history.... (it won't be possible by This momment as i am on my phone, lol)Bastard sword isn't any faster than a greatsword. :smallconfused:

Anyway, yours doesn't look to be a very high-optimization group, so you'd probably better keep it simple. I'd say one-level dip in exotic weapon master, and then some Singh Rager (OA) to keep up on later levels, unless you feel it's too much into the barbarian's territory. Tactical Soldier (Miniatures Handbook) might also interest you.

BUT, o there is one annoying rule that freaks me. The DM said that we are allowed to take only 10 lvs of prestige classes.. :(Non-casters tend to be better off with multiclassing anyway. 10 levels should be more than enough.

Gwendol

2012-01-25, 08:39 AM

Nice abilities! I suggest dropping the bastard sword for a reach weapon (maybe you can switch to EWP chain?), and the following feats: combat reflexes, combat expertise, and improved trip. As your third level feat I suggest power attack (because all melee fighters should have it).

In addition to the classes suggested by Greenish, I add looking into Marshal, since you'll get to use that CHA of yours.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-25, 09:59 AM

Kridias

2012-01-25, 10:10 AM

Bastard sword isn't any faster than a greatsword. :smallconfused:

I was speaking on the visual aspect, lol. But i could change that, o i just feel that the bastard is perfect for This char by the momment, even not dealing the damage that a greatsword could do.

Anyway, yours doesn't look to be a very high-optimization group, so you'd probably better keep it simple. I'd say one-level dip in exotic weapon master, and then some Singh Rager (OA) to keep up on later levels, unless you feel it's too much into the barbarian's territory. Tactical Soldier (Miniatures Handbook) might also interest you.

Singh Rager looks good, but the tactical Soldier goes a little out of the planned.

:smalltongue:

(i can't quote 2 posts from here, but answering you Gwendol:smallwink:)

The feats are nice, and i dunno About the chain. It would be amazing but i don't think that it would fit with This char...

I was thinking on something to fit kensai on it, o with a lv on exotic weapon master and perhaps Singh Rager... O different combinations lol

Gwendol

2012-01-25, 10:20 AM

With that high DEX your build is begging for Combat reflexes: and to make that effective you want reach. Keep the sword if you will, but get a reach weapon as well.

Again, take a look at Marshal too.

Greenish

2012-01-25, 11:49 AM

I was speaking on the visual aspect, lol.But, but, the game is in your head. The sword looks just like you describe it, either way.

But i could change that, o i just feel that the bastard is perfect for This char by the momment, even not dealing the damage that a greatsword could do.The main objection to bastard sword is usually that you need to spend one of your precious feats to use it one-handed, and even then it only gives you an average of one point higher damage than a longsword.

Still, go with it if you're feeling like it.

Singh Rager looks good, but the tactical Soldier goes a little out of the planned.Well, it has "tactical" in the name. :smallwink:

The prerequisite feats, Combat Reflexes and Cleave are still worth picking up, though. Cleave is a bit more campaign-dependent, but both are okay feats.

Hiro Protagonest

2012-01-25, 12:04 PM

With that high DEX your build is begging for Combat reflexes: and to make that effective you want reach. Keep the sword if you will, but get a reach weapon as well.

You can go tripper build and fluff guisarme as a samurai weapon easily. Polearms aren't a European invention.

Also, are you going to use bastard sword one-handed, or always two-handed (except in rare instances like when holding on to a ledge)? If two-handed, ditch the EWP and Weapon Focus, your attack bonus doesn't suffer much. In their place, take Iron Will and Endurance, and later Indomitable Soul (PHBII), to boost your will save.

Gavinfoxx

2012-01-25, 12:15 PM

Yea, the only thing about a Guisarme is that it supposed to have a hook of some sort on it.

Let me look one up...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamayari

Ah, there you go!

http://www.crystallakeninja.com/media/images/weapons/kamayari.jpg

Plenty Samurai. And it can basically have the same stats as a Guisarme. Also used Spiked Armor to threaten near you. Crazy mean looking armor with bits sticking out and such on it is very Samurai too.

Ditch Exotic Weapon Proficiency, go with Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Combat Expertise, Stand Still, Power Attack, Knock Down, and Hold the Line, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#holdTheLine

That keeps you in PHB/DMG/MM1/SRD/CW, and other than Shock Trooper, is considered fairly low optimization and low source availability. Get some potions of Enlarge Person for emergencies (make sure to look at the image in either the PHB or DMG to see how big your reach is when Enlarged Personed and wielding a reach weapon, and read the attack of opportunity rules...).

Read this as well:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

for ideas. You can do some of that with a Fighter, but not as successfully...

Make sure to max Tumble and the skills that benefit Tumble, it is really the only skill you can use in Combat.

I also made a Core+SRD character to show to people as an example of an optimized 'Fighter', following the Horizon Tripper guidelines:

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55074

It uses a significant amount of reflavoring, Rage is a martial arts 'in the zone' focus rather than Hulk Smash, and it ignores the fact that the character has two weapon fighting and track, for example. It shows the minimum necessary skills for the build, following the suggestions of the Horizon Tripper document and leaving most of the skill points unspent. Yes, the rolls/point buy is high, but it was made as an example for one person with good rolls initially.

Telonius

2012-01-25, 12:18 PM

This may be the only time I will ever offer this advice, but ....

If retraining is an option, and if the character is lawful, consider switching out one level of Fighter for a level of Samurai.

If you're PrCing out to Kensai as soon as possible, you need Diplomacy on your list of class skills. A level of Samurai gives that to you. Since you're set on taking EWP: Bastard Sword anyway, you don't lose anything. You're only taking five levels of martial classes before Kensai, so you effectively get an extra Fighter feat if you go Samurai1/Ftr4 (EWP from Samurai plus three fighter feats from Fighter, instead of just plain three fighter feats if you went Fighter5).

Cieyrin

2012-01-25, 12:31 PM

You can go tripper build and fluff guisarme as a samurai weapon easily. Polearms aren't a European invention.

Also, are you going to use bastard sword one-handed, or always two-handed (except in rare instances like when holding on to a ledge)? If two-handed, ditch the EWP and Weapon Focus, your attack bonus doesn't suffer much. In their place, take Iron Will and Endurance, and later Indomitable Soul (PHBII), to boost your will save.

Bastard Swords work with Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow for double Str bonus to damage, so it's not a complete loss there, as opposed to a greatsword. Plus Indomitable Will doesn't work all Will saves, just mind-affecting and fear, which tend to be mind-affecting anyways. That hits a good chunk of effects but that's still no guarantee. I'd pursue Steadfast Determination, since a Fighter is more likely to raise their Con than their Wis and keep your MADness down to just physical stats.

On the other hand, being a Tactical Damage Dealer does scream Tactical Soldier or at least more focus on Combat Maneuvers, which you work best with a polearm for the most part, since even if you don't have the Improved [insert Combat Maneuver here], if they don't threaten you when you do it, you're immune to the AoO. :smallbiggrin: I'd look at Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape), combine with tripping via Knockdown and definitely consider Shock Trooper (There's more to it than just Heedless Charge, remember?) and Combat Brute.

For something different, you have to meleers in the Monk and Barbarian, which could leave an opening for you to go archer, for which you have the feats to actually make work somewhat. Consider Bolas for ranged trips, as well as Master Thrower for tricks or Peerless Archer for ranged Power Attack. Rangers may work out as better archers do to their magical backup but Fighter Archers can make it work just as well.

Coidzor

2012-01-25, 12:47 PM

Got good all around stats, so you're pretty much free to dip into anything, Totemist 2 or a bit more for lots of natural attacks that you can use to be a blender, with an item you'd have the charisma to start taking bard levels or take Suel Arcanamach as your PrC instead.

Kridias

2012-01-25, 03:55 PM

I Could try to Ditch the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and still use the Bastard.

If i got 1 Lv at Kensai i could take the "Morphing" Enchant from the Magic Item Compedium, that would allow me to change the type of the weapon, so i don't think that it would be a Great problem! As i could use the Bastard AND the Guisarme/Spear if the situation demmanded it. :smalltongue:

How about this though:

Fighter 5
Samurai 1
Exotic Weapon Master 1
5 Kensai
4 Tactical

Or Something like that?

With the use of the Morphing Enchant, some crystals and another alternative weapons, i think i could fill the gap. The barbarian and the monk are indeed going to probably open the breaches that i need to act as pointed by Cieyrin. The use of 3 Combat Focus will guide me to the weaker targets, and the combo with the other Feats that you guys told me, perhaps we can go somewhere.

Read this as well:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

for ideas. You can do some of that with a Fighter, but not as successfully...

Make sure to max Tumble and the skills that benefit Tumble, it is really the only skill you can use in Combat.

I also made a Core+SRD character to show to people as an example of an optimized 'Fighter', following the Horizon Tripper guidelines:

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/....php?cid=55074

Will be cheking the Horizon Tripper, Thanks!

And Thanks for everyone. I am not totally used to build this kind of character. My last one was an 15 Lv Human, 10 Knight, 5 Purple Dragon (when i stopped playing,:smalleek:)

Gwendol

2012-01-25, 04:01 PM

That's a good tank combo. Best of luck with this one!

Seharvepernfan

2012-01-25, 04:35 PM

Use a tower shield, they can be picked up as a move action and dropped as a free action. Use the tower shield and expertise to get your AC through the roof when fighting groups of weaker enemies who won't be able to hit you or when fighting one powerful opponent with help from your party.

Drop it and two-hand power attack + cleave when you need to get through a group of weaker enemies quickly or when fighting enemies like giants who have low AC but very high attack bonuses.

At higher levels, if you can, get an animated shield and use your bastard sword two handed all the time. Get an adamantine bastard sword as early as possible - it can sunder everything very quickly and is itself very hard to sunder.

Don't be afraid to try to sunder (or even disarm) when two-handing, sometimes thats the quickest way to end a fight even if you don't have the right feats, especially if your opponent is a giant with a hafted weapon like an axe.

I don't know much about Kensai, but the Sword & Fist book had the weapon master (which was called Kensai back then), and my first character was a human bastard sword wielding fighter/weapon master. I know now that that was a terrible decision, but at the time it was fun as hell.

Your barbarian friend is likely going to be more effective in fights than you, but when he goes down or can't rage any longer, it's going to be up to you to win the fight. Keep your armor class high and try disadvantage your enemies (with sunder, disarm, etc.) while he does the damage.

EDIT: If you're allowed to change your choices, ask your DM if you can have spiked chain proficiency.

Greenish

2012-01-25, 04:43 PM

Use a tower shield, they can be picked up as a move action and dropped as a free action.Any item can be picked up as a move action and dropped as a free action.

If you actually intend to use the shield as a shield, though, you'd have to use a move action both to don and to remove it.

Gavinfoxx

2012-01-25, 05:23 PM

I strongly suggest NOT using a shield. The idea of melee classes is to stop enemies with REACH and DEBUFFS (like 'prone', or 'dead' [with the implication being that after your turn, they are dead, ie, you spent one round of actions moving them from 100% HP to -10 HP]), not AC.

Remember, even if I had a character who was proficient with a bastard sword as a one handed weapon, my character would NOT use it as a one handed weapon. Heck, even if a character of mine had a longsword, he would generally not use it as a 1h weapon with shield -- they'd use it as a 2h weapon....

He would use it as a two handed weapon, because doing that gives 1.5x strength damage, and dramatically improves Power Attack returns....

And even if that character had Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, AND Two Weapon Fighting (ie, he got those feats as free feats given by the DM), he would STILL not use a Bastard Sword with a Short Sword and two weapon fighting. He would likely still use his bastard sword two handed, and if he ever wanted to two weapon fight for some reason, he would attack with his Armor Spikes, or take his hand off of his sword as a free action and attack with gauntlet or spiked gauntlet.

Cieyrin

2012-01-25, 07:55 PM

It's not always feasible to kill something, strange as it sounds. Sometimes you don't WANT to kill things, like if you stumbled into a dragon's lair by accident and want to live to see another day. The same if you're swarmed (many characters don't pick up Great Cleave), so having a higher AC is a good reason so you don't get cut to ribbons, as not every build is gonna be a Robilar's Gambit/Combat Reflexes/Hold the Line build. As in many things, you don't necessarily want to nuke as fast as you can.

Elboxo

2012-01-25, 08:30 PM

A reach weapon like a Guisarme, with the feat Short Haft ( Lets you attack opponents right next to you with a reach weapon. ) would cover your bases for close and reach combat, since with a reach weapon you WILL get enemies getting up close, so that they can hit you, thus why the Spiked Chain is great: It has reach and can hit things right beside you.

If you have access to the Heroes of Horror/Libris Mortis books, and the DM allows you to take the Willing Deformity feat WITH a subfeat under it as ONE feat ( Unlikely, but very nice. ) your subfeat of Reach (Or is it called height?)
gives you an extra 5ft reach with any weapon. This way you could still be using your Bastard Sword, and have reach to trip/take Attacks of Opportunity [on] the enemy, then take some of the other suggested feats people have put forward, like Stand Still and be a denial fighter.

"Oh you tripped? How sad. Oh you are getting back up? I get to hit you, oh you are moving away? Nah, you can stay there and get hit more."

Gavinfoxx

2012-01-25, 08:30 PM

As in many things, you don't necessarily want to nuke as fast as you can.

I don't understand what you are talking about. This is D&D. This is a game of a bunch of fantastically wealthy and violent hobos / land pirates going to the homes of things that look different than they do, killing them, and taking their stuff. Why would you ever want to be worse at doing that??

Like, if you had two feats, and one said, "Add 1d6 to all damage you do" and another said, "Add 2d6 to all damage you do", why would you ever take the first one? You're supposed to be good at killing things. That is what this game is about!

Big Fau

2012-01-25, 08:41 PM

As in many things, you don't necessarily want to nuke as fast as you can.

It isn't "Nuke as fast as you can", it's "Nuke as fast as the situation calls for".

Your example about leaving the dragon alive? Nonlethal damage works just fine with a Charger build, allowing you to one-round it without killing it (it just won't be waking up for a while).

Gavinfoxx

2012-01-25, 08:57 PM

Your example about leaving the dragon alive? Nonlethal damage works just fine with a Charger build, allowing you to one-round it without killing it (it just won't be waking up for a while).

Yea, more capability and more versatility means you can do more things and have more options. The choice to be capable in combat doesn't mean you HAVE to always do awesome stuff; you could choose not to. Though why you would choose not to...

Also, OP, you should read these:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

and if it hasn't been linked yet:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870606/The_Fighters_Handbook_--_2007

Also... if you like melee builds, you HAVE to read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7200.0

Cieyrin

2012-01-25, 09:25 PM

I don't understand what you are talking about. This is D&D. This is a game of a bunch of fantastically wealthy and violent hobos / land pirates going to the homes of things that look different than they do, killing them, and taking their stuff. Why would you ever want to be worse at doing that??

Like, if you had two feats, and one said, "Add 1d6 to all damage you do" and another said, "Add 2d6 to all damage you do", why would you ever take the first one? You're supposed to be good at killing things. That is what this game is about!

Perhaps your games are but there are other parts of the game that don't involve smacking other people with phallic objects till they fall down. There is also degrees of optimization that varies table to table and the OP's table doesn't sound like the kind of table where the phrase "You didn't drop him? You wasted your turn, n00b!" would be uttered. Thus, there's room for not making every character an Uber Charger, something the Barbarian is probably more apt at, anyways, if he goes Spirit Lion Whirling Frenzy.

Sometimes, a simple Intimidate (something a Fighter or Barbarian can excel at) can end the encounter before it begins. Disarming or tripping the mayor's guards (or both) can make them think twice before furthering hostilities. There is room for this in the game and, as Big Fau amended me, "Nuke as the situation calls for." I can play the game as my own personal rendition of 8 Bit Theatre but that doesn't mean I have to do the same thing every time, does it?

Gavinfoxx

2012-01-25, 09:32 PM

Seharvepernfan

2012-01-26, 05:33 AM

Any item can be picked up as a move action and dropped as a free action.

If you actually intend to use the shield as a shield, though, you'd have to use a move action both to don and to remove it.

To pick it up and hold it (use it), yes, to drop it, no. Notice that the tower shield description does not state that you strap it to your arm, while all the other shields do.

Greenish

2012-01-26, 08:42 AM

To pick it up and hold it (use it), yes, to drop it, no. Notice that the tower shield description does not state that you strap it to your arm, while all the other shields do.Donning any shield is a move action. Tower shields don't get an exception.

Cieyrin

2012-01-26, 11:53 AM

Cieyrin: I understand what you mean... and I was half joking, of course. I understand that there are different power levels for different sorts of storytelling and gameplay. But we are talking about a guy who started as a low level fighter. The fighter class is a protected niche of 'only be good at killing things in melee', and it can't really do anything else... and it isn't that good at THAT task either. There's a time and a place for talking about the meta theory of the game, and what tier to aim for, and what sorts of things do and do not work, and the sorts of non combat things to do in the game. Intentionally going for weaker than the most powerful option has a place in the game... but I don't think we should really talk about it in this thread. The player asked for 'help with fighter fighting fights'. He WANTS to be good at fighting in melee. Since he seems to be such a newbie (ie, he thought exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword was a good idea), I'm not going to go into the meta theory and building to a particular power and agency level and stuff, other than to point him to some useful melee builds. The reason I pointed him at Hood was mostly to expand his mind a little bit, give him an entertaining read, and help him have a better idea of what is and isn't possible on a broad conceptual level -- not for him to actually use it...

I see this as one of them cases of 'Internet makes it hard to read intent' type deals. So yes, I see what you mean. I'm just saying that his original concept could still work, though perhaps it'd be better on a Dwarf, since they get the free proficiency with Dwarven Waraxes that dovetails nicely into Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow so you can apply more leverage regardless of the handing he uses with it (double Strength in two, double Power Attack in one). It doesn't work as nicely with Bastard Swords, true, but it can. I also mentioned other options in my initial post, namely Dungeoncrasher, which is something you can work with, though that may involve going Goliath for Knockback or getting Brutal Surge on your favorite weapon.

Also, Hood is too diptastic for my tastes. :smallyuk: Not saying it doesn't work, just that its theorycrafting is a bit much. Sort of the opposite of Jack B. Quick's maelstrom of blows.

Kridias

2012-01-26, 03:38 PM

Well...the DM didn't let me exchange the Exotic Weapon (B.sword) for anything.

So, i am kinda stuck with that by the momment, unfortunatelly.:frown:

Well, so i was thinking. I can use the Weapon Master according to him, so i could just...forget everything about this kensai thing and go like..

Fighter 5
Samurai 5
Weapon Master 6
Blade Dancer 3
Exotic Weapon Master 1

Since i am ALREADY with the Bastard, why don't focus on it. With a couple of Feats like Combat forms or the Tactical Shock Troop and combat brute and perhaps we can do some damage.

OR, USE the Kensai mixing the Weapon Master. Or just use several feats/weapons to do some damage or whatever.:xykon:

I am also reading all the links about it, Many thanks!

Greenish

2012-01-26, 04:03 PM

Which samurai are you planning to use? (There's one in OA, and different one in CW.)

Weapon Master was technically rolled into Exotic Weapon Master in the update. (I know it makes no sense, that's WotC for you.)

Fighter 5 is an empty level. Samurai 3 is an empty level (either way). Why not go Fighter 6/Samurai 2?

Gavinfoxx

2012-01-26, 04:11 PM

Well if you want to deal damage with your bastard sword, the first thing to do is wield it two handed, as if you only had martial proficiency in it, thereby getting extra damage with it. Or you could ignore your proficiency / wasted feat, and just fight the way I mentioned (ie, with a polearm) anyway. If you never use the EWP for three levels, and you point out the retraining rules in PHB II, the dm might let you retrain. Yes, there are rules for, "oops, I messed up my build, I should change it." in the game.

Remember, ultimately, it doesn't matter if you are only proficient in a 1d6 club, or even if it was arbitrarily a 1 point damage weapon, as long as you can two hand the thing appropriately. If you wield the thing two handed, and do the shock trooper / power attack / pounce / leap attack / battle jump / headlong rush / whirling frenzy / etc., you will have enough damage.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087

Remember, you also have the option of saying, "I'm retiring this character and coming in with one that is more thoughtfully made."