How to make a spellbook not readable via read magic?

[Hirax]

Is there a way to make read magic not work? I'm generating a spellbook for treasure, but it's going to be a geometer's book. Because of the +5 to spellcraft DCs, the wizard won't be able to take 10 to decipher it. They currently they can succeed on mastering an individual 1st level spell on a roll of 12. I'd like to push this to 17 if possible, so I need some way to add another 5 to the DC. I know I can just say 'read magic doesn't work,' but where's the fun in that? I might also want to use it on spellbooks for characters I play myself.

edit: before more people suggest various ciphers, sloppy handwriting, writing in different languages, and the like, read magic beats those by RAW. They've also been thoroughly mentioned.

[Need_A_Life]

ACF Eidetic Spellcaster from Dragon makes you not have a spellbook to be stolen :smallamused:

Other ways:
Illusory Script
Eyebite
Symbol of Pain/Death (triggers if command word is not spoken)
Explosive Runes (will damage spellbook)
Contingent Erase (Trigger: When targeted with divination magic)
Write your spells in an obscure language (like writing your diary in classical Latin)

Why do you want to make it harder to read anyway?
Between aid another (and everyone should have >=1rnk in Spellcraft), Taking 10 and Intelligence being the primary stat of anyone who cares about spellbooks, they'll make the DC regardless.

[deuxhero]

SoTA dood aren't primary int.

Hidden page?

edit: Secret, not hidden.

[Hirax]

"Aid Another

You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone."

Aid another won't help the person this book is for, as nobody else in the party would be able to succeed on the DC 26 check even on a roll of 20. Also, try actually reading more than the thread title. :smallbiggrin:

Deux, did you mean secret page? I'd prefer something that can't be dispelled, but that's a possible solution.

[Demons_eye]

The WotC had online articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) on dead levels giving the Wizard this ability:



Animated Script (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a wizard can magically animate the writing in their spellbook, causing the inked symbols and words to migrate across the page. Doing so increases the Spellcraft DC for another wizard attempting to decipher or prepare spells from their spellbook by the inscribing wizard's Intelligence modifier + 1 at the cost of 5 gp per inscribed page. See Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or Scroll on page 179 of the Player's Handbook. For each level in which the character does not gain a bonus feat after 2nd level, the wizard can increase the Spellcraft DC by +1 at the cost of an additional 5 gp per inscribed page (for example, +2 for 10 gp per page at 3rd level, +3 for 15 gp per page at 4th level, +4 for 20 gp per page at 6th level, and so on). The inscribing wizard can will their animated writing to stop, at which point the Spellcraft DC to copy a spell from another's spellbook returns to normal (DC 15 + spell level).

[Hirax]

Ooh, that's just the thing to raise the spellcraft DC. Read magic is still the main problem, though.

[Demons_eye]

Ooh, that's just the thing to raise the spellcraft DC. Read magic is still the main problem, though.

Maybe I missed something somewhere, or more likely I am woefully ignorant of spellbooks and how they work, but how does read magic work into it?

[Hirax]

See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings). "To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic."

The added annoyance is that every wizard not only knows read magic, but can also prepare it without a spellbook.

[Demons_eye]

See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings). "To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic."

The added annoyance is that every wizard not only knows read magic, but can also prepare it without a spellbook.

Read down a few places more


Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks

A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)

Mainly its fine that he deciphers it but he still needs to make the check to use the spell.

[Leon]

Plot magic: The complex runes on this book conceal a Block to Divination Spells that require another school of spells to be used in an inventive way to break the code.

[Flickerdart]

This wizard was clearly taught by the worst master you've ever seen. His magical code is sloppy, obfuscated, inefficient and at times so inept that you have to pause just to take a breath. Doodles of puppies line the margins and often overlap runes that are critical to your understanding of the spell. Some pages have leftovers of some kind of sauce smeared on them, and others are stained with coffee. The low-quality ink has faded from misuse, and adds yet another dimension of suffering to anyone attempting to make heads or tails of the volume.

[TuggyNE]

Mainly its fine that he deciphers it but he still needs to make the check to use the spell.

Technically, that's only for preparing spells using someone else's spellbook instead of your own; it doesn't apply to copying spells from someone else's spellbook into your own. For that... I suggest you read down a bit further, where it says something very similar:


Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

Upshot: normally copying a spell would require two Spellcraft checks, but read magic eliminates the first.

[Demons_eye]

Technically, that's only for preparing spells using someone else's spellbook instead of your own; it doesn't apply to copying spells from someone else's spellbook into your own. For that... I suggest you read down a bit further, where it says something very similar:



Upshot: normally copying a spell would require two Spellcraft checks, but read magic eliminates the first.

Its the exact same formula as I quoted above so I did not see the need to quote all of the text.


A geometer’s spellbook is difficult for nongeometers to decipher and use. The Spellcraft DC to decipher or prepare spells from a geometer’s spellbook is increased by 5 for nongeometers (see page 178 of the Player’s Handbook).

At Hirax: Because it says that it applies when preparing spells it would be no great leap to have it apply to copping the spells into ones own book. For that and the Animated Script ability.

[Hirax]

Being able to eliminate read magic would still be a plus, since it's a net +5 to the DC for pretty much everything related to the book by my reading. Since it doesn't appear there's a RAW solution for that out there, I've now invented Vecna's Vexing Volume (take that Boccob!), which simply eliminates read magic as an option, you need to use your wits to decipher the writings. I like Flickerdart's narrative, too, I'll add that in, but use the mechanics of animated script. Thanks for all the ideas so far! It'll be a while before this book is found, so if anyone knows of RAW methods to give read magic the boot, they'd still be useful. Though I may still call the book Vecna's Vexing Volume, alliteration is fun. :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

Make it so they can't see the script in the first place via Secret Page spell. Boom, no more read magic.

[Elemental]

Here's a potentially effective non-magical solution:
Firstly, use a difficult to expose invisible ink.
Then write everything backwards and upside down. Use a standard Caesar's Cipher, combine that with a complex letter substitution code, and on top of that, make sure it's all in unique symbols.
And as the crowning glory, take a level of Druid to learn Druidic and write everything in it.

Let them waste all their divinations before giving them a clue or two.

[Flickerdart]

Here's a potentially effective non-magical solution:
Firstly, use a difficult to expose invisible ink.
Then write everything backwards and upside down. Use a standard Caesar's Cipher, combine that with a complex letter substitution code, and on top of that, make sure it's all in unique symbols.
And as the crowning glory, take a level of Druid to learn Druidic and write everything in it.

Let them waste all their divinations before giving them a clue or two.
A Geometer doesn't use letters as-is. Even if the wizard wasn't one, writing down magical formulae in a cipher makes them kind of not work. It would be like writing C++ in Pig Latin.

[Hirax]

Complete Arcane states that wizards already use personal scripts and ciphers in their spellbooks, so elements such as writing in different languages and Caesar boxes are heavily implied to already be present in the given RAW DCs. Secret page is nice, but it's a different sort of challenge than I'm looking for. Though from now on every spellbook user I play is going to disguise their spellbook as a romance novel via secret page. :smallbiggrin:

[Krazzman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn't the first DC to copy a spell a Decipher Script skill check?
If you really want to disallow Read Magic, how about making the ink lead infused? Or a special magic resistant mineral is worked into it. Sounds at least fluffwise good for a Geomancer.

[Mystify]

Give the spellbook an antimagic aura. That will stop those pesky wizards from using read magic on it!

[TheArsenal]

Just get a REALY crappy handwriting. Thatl throw them off.

[Psyren]

A Geometer doesn't use letters as-is. Even if the wizard wasn't one, writing down magical formulae in a cipher makes them kind of not work. It would be like writing C++ in Pig Latin.

I love this analogy.


Just get a REALY crappy handwriting. Thatl throw them off.

Read Magic unfortunately beats bad handwriting by RAW (assuming you could even model that.)

[Mystify]

I love this analogy.



Read Magic unfortunately beats bad handwriting by RAW (assuming you could even model that.)
now I want to make a character whose handwriting is so atrocious that the only way people can understand it is for him to write it in a magical manner, and have them cast read magic on it.

[Need_A_Life]

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone."

Aid another won't help the person this book is for, as nobody else in the party would be able to succeed on the DC 26 check even on a roll of 20. Also, try actually reading more than the thread title. :smallbiggrin:
I think we're reading that passage differently. IMG we've always interpreted it to simply mean you couldn't assist with, say a DC 15 Know: Arcane, if you didn't have the skill, as that skill cannot be used above DC 10 untrained.

Besides, I did give suggestions and quite clearly I've read more than the thread title. I was merely asking a question.

[TheArsenal]

Well then write in secret code. My secret code takes up allot of paper but is completly unreadable to others

[Metahuman1]

1: make the spell book out of riverine.

2: Give it a minor magical ability, say one of the less expensive one's form complete Arcane.

3: Make it your Item Familiar by taking the feat.

4: When it starts getting special powers, make the first one to have unlimited pages for putting spells in it. Thus allowing it to store an unlimited number of spells. (Has other bonuses, chief of which is connivance and rule of cool.)

5: Keep multiple Castings of Explosive Runes on each page of the spell book so that if someone other then you reads it they get blasted.

6: Profit.

[Urpriest]

Read Magic requires that the target be an inscription and that it be on an object. The latter is hard to obviate, but the former is easy: use ink, or have the writing raised above the page rather than inscribed into it. Lines of silver for example, like a circuit diagram.

[Coidzor]

Explosive Runes.

Why do you care so much about them getting 1st level spells out of a spell book if you're also providing the spellbook in the first place?

[Hirax]

Read Magic requires that the target be an inscription and that it be on an object. The latter is hard to obviate, but the former is easy: use ink, or have the writing raised above the page rather than inscribed into it. Lines of silver for example, like a circuit diagram.

I like the concept, but I'm not clear on how the lines of silver example works?


Explosive Runes.

Why do you care so much about them getting 1st level spells out of a spell book if you're also providing the spellbook in the first place?

It contains up to 5th level spells, the intent is for them to be able to glean it slowly, so they can only get a few spells out of it each day, and so they won't be able to get the higher level spells out until later. They're currently on a time table in game, so by the time sitting around for days figuring it out figures to be an option, they'll be a couple levels higher anyway. The player that's going to receive it enjoys using skills, this is the sort of thing that's right up their alley.

[dextercorvia]

What level is the Wizard, what is the current DC?

[Hirax]

5th level, they have 8 ranks in spellcraft, +2 from synergy with knowledge arcana (forgot this initially), and +6 from int. The DC without animated script is 26 for 1st level spells, and 30 for 5th level (previous post contained a typo, 5th level is the highest). They're a transmuter, and banned enchantment, evocation, and necromancy. Refluffed animated script will add +5 to the DC, though I can tweak that if desired.

[Coidzor]

So I'm guessing a patron who calls dibs and then passes them on fragments of it is out of the question, similarly to passing on fragments of it to them bit by bit through the treasure they'll be encountering...

Hmm, tricky.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Complete Arcane page 141, you can place a magical trap on your spellbook as per DMG trap costs. Give it an automatic-reset (Greater) Dispel Magic whenever anyone attempts to read any page from it. Their Read Magic will be dispelled and they won't be able to read the book.

Read Magic is a divination, so a Nondetection effect on the spellbook would be a decent way to block it.

The Book of Geometry ability implies that the spells are written in some sort of geometric pattern. It would stand to reason that the same geometric pattern could spell out something completely different if read from another direction. There's no telling whether Read Magic would reveal the spell or the gag message when a page of geometry is read. I'd use a Forgery skill check to represent the ability to disguise his spells as such, so assuming he could take ten on those checks just assign a DC to add another +5 to the Spellcraft check to decipher the spells.

[dextercorvia]

At 5th level are you really concerned with how many 1st level spells they can learn? It still costs 100gp a pop. They need a 17 or Read Magic to know what the 3rd level spells (this is where you want some limitations) are, and a 12 to write it down after that. That second DC goes down by 2 for a spell from their school.

That is a 55% chance with read magic to learn a 3rd level spell from their specialized school, and a 45% chance to learn the others. Is this really too high? How many 3rd level spells are in the book?

[Hirax]

I haven't gotten to selecting spells for the book, but I should stress that it's not that I don't want them to have the spells, just that I want them to be able to use the book as chewing gum for a while.

[dextercorvia]

Probably the easiest way to do this, is to houserule that the checks for recognizing/learning are switched. That way Read Magic will get you past the easier one, but in order to learn the spell, they will be facing a DC of 5 higher. It will be learnable, but they'll likely have to wait a level or two to get the bulk of those spells.

Edit: I meant to say, that it make sense to me that it would be harder to learn something than to recognize it anyway.

[Urpriest]

I like the concept, but I'm not clear on how the lines of silver example works?

Just one way to make writing raised off the page rather than inscribed into it. Gold Leaf would be another option. Note that if you go by this technicality prepare for flying books.

[Psyren]

Just one way to make writing raised off the page rather than inscribed into it. Gold Leaf would be another option. Note that if you go by this technicality prepare for flying books.

Once you get down to a definition as general as "Write, engrave, or print characters upon (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inscribed) then no method of recording the letters in the book will bypass it.

[Urpriest]

Once you get down to a definition as general as "Write, engrave, or print characters upon (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inscribed) then no method of recording the letters in the book will bypass it.

Well a geometer doesn't use characters, so we need instead "to write, engrave, or print as a lasting record", so perhaps the book is perishable? There's got to be some definitional malarkey we can use here!

[Psyren]

Well a geometer doesn't use characters...

They don't? All I see in the class description is that their books are more difficult to read; it doesn't elaborate how. That could mean no characters, or it could mean that they use a lot of polygons and write characters along the sides at various orientations (e.g. sideways and upside-down)... or anything at all, really. The point is that they're still writing on the page.

[Urpriest]

They don't? All I see in the class description is that their books are more difficult to read; it doesn't elaborate how. That could mean no characters, or it could mean that they use a lot of polygons and write characters along the sides at various orientations (e.g. sideways and upside-down)... or anything at all, really. The point is that they're still writing on the page.


While other spellcasters must record their spells in pages and pages of cryptic formulae, the geometer knows that every spell has a perfect geometrical design, a figure whose angles and intersections hint at the secrets hidden in the structure of the multiverse.

This strongly implies that each page is a geometrical design, not an arrangement of characters. But it doesn't need to do anything more than imply it, because no rule states that a Wizard must use characters to write their spells. This particular Wizard, Geometer or no, might write spells without using characters.

[The Random NPC]

Correct me if I wrong, but doesn't a failed attempt to learn a spell prevent you from trying again until you gain at least one rank in spellcraft?

[Psyren]

This strongly implies that each page is a geometrical design, not an arrangement of characters. But it doesn't need to do anything more than imply it, because no rule states that a Wizard must use characters to write their spells. This particular Wizard, Geometer or no, might write spells without using characters.

You're hung up on the word "character" when that's not even the important part of the definition.

2. to mark (a surface) with words, characters, etc., especially in a durable or conspicuous way.
3. to write, print, mark, or engrave (words, characters, etc.). (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inscribe)

The important part is "writing or marking a surface" and there's quite simply no way to record information into a book without doing this in some way. So whether they use letters, lines, maths, morse code, a clever rebus, or braille - Read Magic can read it.

[Hirax]

Correct me if I wrong, but doesn't a failed attempt to learn a spell prevent you from trying again until you gain at least one rank in spellcraft?

No, you only need to wait until the next day. Mastering the entire book is what forces you to gain another rank before trying again.

[dextercorvia]

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft.

I believe you are mistaken. This is what I was referring to earlier.

[Hirax]

Huh, so copying works that way too.

[sreservoir]

You're hung up on the word "character" when that's not even the important part of the definition.

2. to mark (a surface) with words, characters, etc., especially in a durable or conspicuous way.
3. to write, print, mark, or engrave (words, characters, etc.). (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inscribe)

The important part is "writing or marking a surface" and there's quite simply no way to record information into a book without doing this in some way. So whether they use letters, lines, maths, morse code, a clever rebus, or braille - Read Magic can read it.

well, I would have said you could make it not a surface, but that second definition throws a wrench into that.

but I'm sure there is a way to record information without writing, prining, marking, or engraving.

[BlackHumor]

If you could somehow make the spellbook a sound recording I'm pretty sure that would make it immune to read magic; read magic explicitely says it's only for writing.

How you do that, I'm not sure, but it's an idea.

[Urpriest]

You're hung up on the word "character" when that's not even the important part of the definition.

2. to mark (a surface) with words, characters, etc., especially in a durable or conspicuous way.
3. to write, print, mark, or engrave (words, characters, etc.). (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inscribe)

The important part is "writing or marking a surface" and there's quite simply no way to record information into a book without doing this in some way. So whether they use letters, lines, maths, morse code, a clever rebus, or braille - Read Magic can read it.

Switching dictionaries on me is hardly fair. :smalltongue:

[Namfuak]

What if the pages were not in order? The wizard who wrote it would know how he arranged it (each spell skips a certain number of pages according to it's spell level, or something like that), but the person reading would have to decipher which which pages go together in the first place, which I think would logically negate the benefit of read magic (since you would need a spellcraft check for figuring out which page goes with which page and in what order, and then another for actually learning the spell).

[Psyren]

Switching dictionaries on me is hardly fair. :smalltongue:

Blame WotC for not pointing to one and saying "USE THIS DICTIONARY FOR ALL RULES DISPUTES" :smallwink:


What if the pages were not in order? The wizard who wrote it would know how he arranged it (each spell skips a certain number of pages according to it's spell level, or something like that), but the person reading would have to decipher which which pages go together in the first place, which I think would logically negate the benefit of read magic (since you would need a spellcraft check for figuring out which page goes with which page and in what order, and then another for actually learning the spell).

I imagine it would be as difficult to figure out as if someone rearranged the pages in a novel. It wouldn't take long for me to figure something like that out, and I doubt I have 18+ Int.