An alternate Pun-Pun. Would this work?

[nerd-7i+42e]

The one thing I've always disliked about Pun-Pun (I mean, aside from the fact that he's patently ridiculous) is that you need Pazuzu to exist in your campaign setting for him to work. So I've been messing around with some templates, and I think I have an idea to circumvent this. Please tell me if this would work.

You'll need to start out as a kobold nature bard. As your feat, take Precocious Apprentice, and choose Miser's Envy. For your animal companion, choose a viper (small or medium; doesn't matter). Assuming 18 Cha, Miser's Envy will have a DC of 16, enough to work on most 1st-level characters most of the time. If you fail, try again with a different merchant tomorrow. Convince the merchant on whom you succeed to give you 450 gp (roughly half the wealth he, as a 1st-level NPC, would be expected to have) in exchange for that ring that's been burning a hole in your pocket. While he scurries into a corner, repeatedly referring to the ring as "My Precious" (this may cause problems for middle earth a few decades down the line) go to the nearest 9th-level wizard, so that he can cast Baleful Polymorph on you, because who wouldn't want to be a monkey? Oh, whoops! Looks like the wizard misheard "monkey" for "Greenbound Half-Troll Dungeonbred Shadow Living Epic Spell with Permanent Return to Nature/Half-Ogre with Permanent Enlarge Person Symbiosis." That silly wizard!

So, what just happened? Consider an epic spell; we'll call it Become Pun-Pun. It targets an area, in which two things happen:
1: All creatures inside the area permanently gain the Manipulate Form ability.
2: If a creature inside the blob becomes part of a Symbiotic Creature, that Symbiotic Creature is targeted with a Polymorph spell that turns it into a monkey.
Whatever spellcaster is eccentric enough to design such a spell is also eccentric enough to apply the Living Spell template to it. So we've got a huge ooze with a ton of HD. But of course, that spellcaster lived on the plane of shadow, because that's where all the fun stuff happens, and more importantly the monster in question is now a huge magical beast (thanks to the Shadow Creature template). Apply the Dungeonbred and Half-Troll templates, so now we've got a large giant on our hands. Next the spellcaster casts Return to Nature, which, because it functions exactly like Reduce Person except for giants, can be made Permanent. Next our medium giant becomes a medium plant, courtesy of the Greenbound template.

Meanwhile, we've got a Half-Ogre, who's been happily skipping about his day, when BAM! Permanent Enlarge Person. The huge humanoid shrugs and carries on with his day, not entirely unhappy with this, when BAM! Symbiosis with the above monster. This works, of course, because we've got a huge humanoid and a medium plant, which is within the specifications of Symbiotic Creature. But Become Pun-Pun's effect realizes that there is a symbiosis going on in its area, so it polymorphs the resultant Symbiotic Creature — that is to say, itself — into a monkey. So let's look at the resulting creature. Before the Polymorph kicks in, we've got a huge aberration, which doesn't seem to be anything special, really, except that its HD are the HD of the Half-Ogre — aka 1. Furthermore, Polymorph makes it into a tiny animal, but it keeps Become Pun-Pun's abilities. So we've got a tiny animal with 1 HD. Sound familiar? (Hint: it starts with a "b" and ends in "aleful polymorph").

But that doesn't work, right? After all, isn't this an individual, not a race? Well, no, not really. While this race would be extremely rare (and by that I mean that it's not likely to actually exist ever), it's still a race, even if it's only hypothetical. But you can't polymorph into monsters with a template, so how can you polymorph into this? Because you don't polymorph; you balefully polymorph. Baleful Polymorph never says that you can't assume the form of a monster with a template.

So, having determined that you are now a monkey who gives people the Manipulate Form ability with your hugs, you decide to test this out on your viper familiar. The wizard that cast baleful polymorph dismisses it, because you write him a note telling him you're tired of being a monkey, and your viper gives you Manipulate Form. Pay the merchant as an apology for manipulating him, if you are so inclined. I don't think I need to say what happens after that.

Sources (for those of you who do not know every sourcebook by heart):
Nature Bard: Unearthed Arcana
Precocious Apprentice: Linky (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a)/Complete Arcane
Miser's Envy: Spell Compendium
Epic Magic: Epic Level Handbook
Manipulate Form (Sarrukh ability): Serpent Kingdoms
Living Spell: Eberron Campaign/Monster Manual 3
Shadow Creature: Manual of the Planes
Dungeonbred: Dungeonscape
Half-Troll: Fiend Folio
Return to Nature: Eberron Campaign Setting
Greenbound Creature: Lost Empires of Faerun
Half-Ogre: Savage Species
Symbiotic Creature: Savage Species

[Big Fau]

Polymorph (and it's Baleful brother) cannot turn you into a creature with a template...


Edit: Also, you are blatantly cheating with the Baleful Polymorph granting permanent spell effects (like Permanent Enlarge Person). The actual Pun-Pun is 100% legal, no question about it.

[nerd-7i+42e]

Polymorph (and it's Baleful brother) cannot turn you into a creature with a template...

For polymorph, yes, but not baleful polymorph. It doesn't at any point mention templates or alter self (which does). I'm guessing because most templates would have made the animal a magical beast, disqualifying it for baleful polymorph.


Edit: Also, you are blatantly cheating with the Baleful Polymorph granting permanent spell effects (like Permanent Enlarge Person).

I'd agree if you were polymorphing (balefully or otherwise) into, for example, a Permanently Enlarged Half-Ogre. My logic is that because this symbiotic creature can only exist with Permanent Enlarge Person and Permanent Return to Nature, their effects have been incorporated into the race.


The actual Pun-Pun is 100% legal, no question about it.

Oh, I agree. But here's the thing: as a DM, the thing I change the most is the campaign setting (yes, I know that Pazuzu is not technically part of any campaign setting, but he's still a part of the world). Of course no DM would allow Pun-Pun anyway; I was just thinking of a way to get around an ultimately trivial detail. :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

Besides which, Pun-Pun doesn't require Pazuzu; that's just the quickest way to do it. The one really essential ingredient for Pun-Pun is the Sarrukh, plus some way to gain a special ability of a creature.

[nerd-7i+42e]

Besides which, Pun-Pun doesn't require Pazuzu; that's just the quickest way to do it. The one really essential ingredient for Pun-Pun is the Sarrukh, plus some way to gain a special ability of a creature.

Sure, but then you have to wait until level five (if memory serves). I want omnipotence now!

[Toliudar]

I'm really not understanding how you can consider


"Greenbound Half-Troll Dungeonbred Shadow Living Epic Spell with Permanent Return to Nature/Half-Ogre with Permanent Enlarge Person Symbiosis."

a small animal of no more than one hit dice.

[Greenish]

I'm really not understanding how you can consider

a small animal of no more than one hit dice.It's not an animal, but it is small (before Enlarge Person) thanks to Return to Nature and Dungeonbred, and it only has one HD since the rest of the stuff is just templates and spells. If I read that correctly, at least. I don't remember if half-troll increases your size, but I guess it has to, for the abomination in question to even qualify for dungeonbred.

[Ashtagon]

Late Errata says Baleful polymorph is subject to all restrictions of the polymorph subschool, so this hack won't work.

[nerd-7i+42e]

It's not an animal, but it is small (before Enlarge Person) thanks to Return to Nature and Dungeonbred, and it only has one HD since the rest of the stuff is just templates and spells. If I read that correctly, at least. I don't remember if half-troll increases your size, but I guess it has to, for the abomination in question to even qualify for dungeonbred.

I think you're confused regarding the order of the templates. Maybe this'll help?

Huge ooze (Living Spell) --> Huge magical beast (Shadow Creature) --> Large magical beast (Dungeonbred) --> Large giant --> (Half-Troll) --> Medium giant (Permanent Return to Nature) --> Medium plant (Greenbound) --> Huge aberration (Symbiotic Creature) --> Small animal (Polymorph)


Late Errata says Baleful polymorph is subject to all restrictions of the polymorph subschool, so this hack won't work.

Really? I've got the errata open and I don't see it. Where exactly did you find it?

[FearlessGnome]

You thought this... thing would be more elegant than summoning up a demon lord to make a quick deal?

[Psyren]

The one thing I've always disliked about Pun-Pun (I mean, aside from the fact that he's patently ridiculous) is that you need Pazuzu to exist in your campaign setting for him to work.

No, you don't. It's just the fastest way to get a candle of invocation (a core item) at level 1.

[Big Fau]

Still, asking for permanent spell effects from a casting of Baleful Polymorph, especially when one of those spells (Back to Nature) is a Druid spell, is cheating. While a DM would have to be fairly dense to allow the legal Pun-Pun in a campaign, this wouldn't fly at all without actual munchkinery.

[dextercorvia]

A Spellgifted (Conjuration) Versatile Domain Generalist* can Gate in a Mirror Mephit (Spellgifted isn't required, you just need any conjuration CL boost) at first level which can SLA for an Efreet getting you the Candle. That doesn't require Pazuzu.

*In my sig.

[Redshirt Army]

You could just buy ladders, sell ten foot poles, and repeat until you had enough to buy a candle of invocation.

[Tyndmyr]

Short answer: No
Long answer: Hell no

Honestly, locating and tricking the hell out of a sarruk would probably be easiest at level 1.

[nerd-7i+42e]

You thought this... thing would be more elegant than summoning up a demon lord to make a quick deal?

I know it's not as elegant. It just gets around an (as I put it earlier) ultimately unimportant detail.


No, you don't. It's just the fastest way to get a candle of invocation (a core item) at level 1.

This was addressed above.


A Spellgifted (Conjuration) Versatile Domain Generalist* can Gate in a Mirror Mephit (Spellgifted isn't required, you just need any conjuration CL boost) at first level which can SLA for an Efreet getting you the Candle. That doesn't require Pazuzu.

*In my sig.

Homebrew makes Pun-Punning too easy; after all, I could just make a class that says, at first level, I can create a Candle of Invocation 1/(insert amount of time).


You could just buy ladders, sell ten foot poles, and repeat until you had enough to buy a candle of invocation.

True, although that's a kind of slow method, wouldn't you say?


Still, asking for permanent spell effects from a casting of Baleful Polymorph, especially when one of those spells (Back to Nature) is a Druid spell, is cheating. While a DM would have to be fairly dense to allow the legal Pun-Pun in a campaign, this wouldn't fly at all without actual munchkinery.

"Fairly dense" is an understatement. No DM (except possibly in a very, very strange campaign) would allow Pun-Pun, legal or otherwise. But by RAW, he's possible. Likewise, by RAW, I'm arguing, you could baleful polymorph into that monster. That's where the debate is, after all. The question is, is a race still legal if you need non-racial abilities/features to become that race? But a lich is still a legal race, even though you need spellcasting to become one. If you had a hypothetical (and very broken) spell which could polymorph into a templated monster, would you be unable to polymorph into a lich because it would necessarily have non-racial features and abilities?

[dextercorvia]

Homebrew makes Pun-Punning too easy; after all, I could just make a class that says, at first level, I can create a Candle of Invocation 1/(insert amount of time).

It isn't homebrew. Did you read the link?

[Psyren]

This was addressed above.


Where? All I see is you saying (twice) that Pazuzu is necessary to become Pun-Pun.

[dextercorvia]

Where? All I see is you saying (twice) that Pazuzu is necessary to become Pun-Pun.

He says that without Pazuzu, you have to wait till level 5, and he's impatient. That is why I gave him a different way to do it at 1.

[Psyren]

He says that without Pazuzu, you have to wait till level 5, and he's impatient. That is why I gave him a different way to do it at 1.

I'm a big fan of Redshirt Army's method :smalltongue:

But either way, assertion disproven, etc.

[nerd-7i+42e]

It isn't homebrew. Did you read the link?

That's what I get for being lazy. :smallsigh: Apologies. Although how would a mirror mephit summon an efreeti?

[sreservoir]

That's what I get for being lazy. :smallsigh: Apologies. Although how would a mirror mephit summon an efreeti?

summon? no, SLA simulacrum.

[BobVosh]

True, although that's a kind of slow method, wouldn't you say?

He can ALWAYS sell the ladders/10-foot pole in one day. You can't always make the merchant fail the save.

[nerd-7i+42e]

summon? no, SLA simulacrum.

Oh, that makes sense. Okay, I buy that Pazuzu isn't necessary even for a level 1 Pun-Pun. Still curious if this works.


He can ALWAYS sell the ladders/10-foot pole in one day. You can't always make the merchant fail the save.

Making ten-foot-poles from ladders gives a profit of 1.75 sp per ladder, assuming you sell it to a merchant instead of selling it to the public as a merchant yourself (which would probably be slower). If you're destroying ladders at a rate of 1/minute (having never cut ladders into 10-ft.-poles personally, I have no idea how accurate this would be), and assuming you're working for 8 hours, that's 840 gp per day. At that rate, it would take you ten days of constant, tedious work to earn enough money for a candle of invocation).

Meanwhile, even if we assume that all the 1st-level merchants in town have Wis 18 and good will saves, they still only get a +6 to will. The DC for Miser's Envy is 16, so you should expect my method to pay off in 2 days of sitting around doing virtually nothing. You're choice, really.

[FearlessGnome]

Meanwhile, even if we assume that all the 1st-level merchants in town have Wis 18 and good will saves, they still only get a +6 to will. The DC for Miser's Envy is 16, so you should expect my method to pay off in 2 days of sitting around doing virtually nothing. Your choice, really.To be fair, most of that time 'sitting around' would probably be spent in existential crisis.

[BobVosh]

Making ten-foot-poles from ladders gives a profit of 1.75 sp per ladder, assuming you sell it to a merchant instead of selling it to the public as a merchant yourself (which would probably be slower). If you're destroying ladders at a rate of 1/minute (having never cut ladders into 10-ft.-poles personally, I have no idea how accurate this would be), and assuming you're working for 8 hours, that's 840 gp per day. At that rate, it would take you ten days of constant, tedious work to earn enough money for a candle of invocation).

Meanwhile, even if we assume that all the 1st-level merchants in town have Wis 18 and good will saves, they still only get a +6 to will. The DC for Miser's Envy is 16, so you should expect my method to pay off in 2 days of sitting around doing virtually nothing. You're choice, really.

Hmm. You could hire people, and frankly the ladder is inefficient. If you buy a spellbook and cut the bindings for it you get 100 pages. Each page is worth 4 silver, so 400 silver i.e. 40 gold. Each book is 15 gold. A untrained hireling is 1 silver per day, so each book can get you ton. Minion your way up to the gold you need. Well, each minion will be 2 gold and 1 silver since you should probably provide them with a dagger to cut the bindings.
You can buy 2 books and 1 minion with change left over for each book you do. (Only 1 minion as the previous minion will have nothing to do, therefore you give him one of the two new books)
I have no clue how long it takes to cut a book apart, but lets say 10 minutes. Hire a minion to find more minions. You should be able to do it in one day, but even if it takes two you at least aren't casting a spell on a NPC and possible committing a crime.

[nerd-7i+42e]

Hmm. You could hire people, and frankly the ladder is inefficient. If you buy a spellbook and cut the bindings for it you get 100 pages. Each page is worth 4 silver, so 400 silver i.e. 40 gold. Each book is 15 gold. A untrained hireling is 1 silver per day, so each book can get you ton. Minion your way up to the gold you need. Well, each minion will be 2 gold and 1 silver since you should probably provide them with a dagger to cut the bindings.
You can buy 2 books and 1 minion with change left over for each book you do. (Only 1 minion as the previous minion will have nothing to do, therefore you give him one of the two new books)
I have no clue how long it takes to cut a book apart, but lets say 10 minutes. Hire a minion to find more minions. You should be able to do it in one day, but even if it takes two you at least aren't casting a spell on a NPC and possible committing a crime.

Bards are nonlawful. Which do you think he'd be more inclined to do: get a headache determining exactly how many minions to hire, or cast a quick spell?

And more importantly, I'm lazy. Which do you think I'd be more inclined to do: get a headache determining exactly how many minions Pun-Pun should hire, or have him cast a quick spell?

[BobVosh]

Ah but a bard lives for the story. Which sounds better: in one day he made a self replicating money factory or he cheated a merchant using magic?

[Toliudar]

Really? I've got the errata open and I don't see it. Where exactly did you find it?

The Rules Compendium rewrites Baleful Polymorph to be a Polymorph subschool spell. No templates for you.

[Acanous]

Now, your build up there, aside from polymorph cheese, suffers from double the problems that Pun-Pun does.

My main argument against Pun-Pun is that he requires to be set in Faerun to work. The Sarruk exists only in Lost Empires of Faerun, and not any printed monster manual- meaning it's not going to be found in Eberron, Greyhawk, or Dragonlance unless you have a very permissive (Or silly) DM.
Pazuzu is, so he'll be there, but without manipulate form it's basically just a free wish at lv 1. Big deal, but not nearly as game-breaking.

I see in your list you require both Eberron AND Faerun material in order to make this work, even disregarding limitations on polymorph.
Now, I don't know about your DM, but it's common practice to assume that setting-specific requirements are mutually exclusive, much like built-in variant rules.
If you're going to be playing in Faerun, use forgotten realms crunch! If Eberron, the same. But don't mix and match, it's a serious loophole that isn't likely to be overlooked.

2cp

[Big Fau]

Now, your build up there, aside from polymorph cheese, suffers from double the problems that Pun-Pun does.

My main argument against Pun-Pun is that he requires to be set in Faerun to work. The Sarruk exists only in Lost Empires of Faerun, and not any printed monster manual- meaning it's not going to be found in Eberron, Greyhawk, or Dragonlance unless you have a very permissive (Or silly) DM.
Pazuzu is, so he'll be there, but without manipulate form it's basically just a free wish at lv 1. Big deal, but not nearly as game-breaking.

I see in your list you require both Eberron AND Faerun material in order to make this work, even disregarding limitations on polymorph.
Now, I don't know about your DM, but it's common practice to assume that setting-specific requirements are mutually exclusive, much like built-in variant rules.
If you're going to be playing in Faerun, use forgotten realms crunch! If Eberron, the same. But don't mix and match, it's a serious loophole that isn't likely to be overlooked.

2cp

First of all the Sarruhk is from Serpent Kingdoms. Same setting, different book. Secondly, Eberron's core book specifically states "If it exists in 3.5, it has a place in Eberron". It doesn't take much to transplant the Sarruhk into Xen'Drik, possibly even making them a direct remnant of Eberron/Siberys/Khyber.

That said, it still doesn't mean the OP's exploit is legal.

[nerd-7i+42e]

The Rules Compendium rewrites Baleful Polymorph to be a Polymorph subschool spell. No templates for you.

Ah, yes, there it is. Thank you for pointing that out.


First of all the Sarruhk is from Serpent Kingdoms. Same setting, different book. Secondly, Eberron's core book specifically states "If it exists in 3.5, it has a place in Eberron". It doesn't take much to transplant the Sarruhk into Xen'Drik, possibly even making them a direct remnant of Eberron/Siberys/Khyber.

That said, it still doesn't mean the OP's exploit is legal.

This.

[The Glyphstone]

Not to mention the vast amount of stuff (moreso for Ebberon because of its kitchen-sink-by-design philosophy) that can have the fluff stripped off and become entirely setting-neutral, but that's an arguement for another thread.