DM problem

[Starlight1978]

Hi,

i am playing in a 3.5 group.

Last session our DM put a Devil from Book of Vile Darkness up against us. The devil had DR 25/+2, and the question was raised if a summoned monster with DR 15/magic could bypass its DR. I noted that a 3.5 monster could never have DR +2 since it does not exist in 3.5 and that the official conversion would be to make the DR25/+2 -> DR25/magic. The DM agreed.

After this, there were a lot more summons cast. After trying to grapple for a while, the summons decided to attack. This worked out fine, over 200 damage was done in that turn. However when it was the Devil's turn, suddenly he mentions, "oh wait, ah, i see, he has not received any damage".
We were a bit surprised by this, so we asked, "can our characters notice why?". Turns out he also had DR25/good.

To make a long story short, the summoner died and the rest escaped.

Now the summoner was a bit annoyed that the Devil suddenly seemed to have DR25/good and looked up the monster after the session at home. It turned out to be the Ghargatula, which does not have DR 25/good at all. So the summoner asked by mail what had happened that the monster suddenly got DR25/good.

The answer was something along the lines of:
- We made a conversion from 3.0 to 3.5, since most Devils in 3.5 have DR good, i decided to give this Devil that as well, since it seems to fit. But he also quoted a part of the regeneration text: "holy and blessed weapons do normal damage"

Now, i don't have a problem with this IF the DM did this beforehand AND he realises he is raising the CR of the creature.
But in this case, he used it on the fly, after the conversion was made, and after he realised he was going to succumb to the summons damage.

I see a few possibilities:
1. He noticed the text of regeneration, interpretted it in a wrong way and does not want to admit his mistake.
2. He did not want to lose.
3. He needed someone to die (when a player dies, he goes to a god we need to save, and clues are given at that time)
4. He really felt he needed to suddenly add DR 25/good

I do not like any of the possibilities and which ever it is, the summoner is feeling screwed. I personally am worried i do not "trust" the DM anymore.

I don't know what to do. Besides the summoner and me, the other 3 players do not know any details (they probably assume the Devil had DR 25/good and the DM missed it in the first place).

I have a feeling this will not work out well, either we do nothing and continue playing a game that is less appealing to us, where i am afraid the summoner might quit on us.

[Greenish]

Even if the summon pierces the DR, it would only deal non-lethal damage against the devil's Regeneration. Ghargatula has almost 400 hp, so it wouldn't have been too close to fainting, either.

[Edit]: DR/Magic on a CR 16 creature would be utterly useless. He should have updated it to DR/Good (or DR/Good or Silver) before the combat, yeah, and ret-conning your own rulings to cause PCs to lose is bad form, but this might not be so clear-cut.

[Killer Angel]

Last session our DM put a Devil from Book of Vile Darkness up against us. The devil had DR 25/+2, and the question was raised if a summoned monster with DR 15/magic could bypass its DR. I noted that a 3.5 monster could never have DR +2 since it does not exist in 3.5 and that the official conversion would be to make the DR25/+2 -> DR25/magic. The DM agreed.

After this, there were a lot more summons cast. After trying to grapple for a while, the summons decided to attack. This worked out fine, over 200 damage was done in that turn. However when it was the Devil's turn, suddenly he mentions, "oh wait, ah, i see, he has not received any damage".
Turns out he also had DR25/good.


OK, the motivations of your DM and the way of handling the thing may be debatable, but if I'm reading this correctly:
You asked if a summoned monster with DR 15/mag bypass a DR 25/mag.
The DM gave an answer, which is correct, but it covers only partially the immunities of said devil.
You didn't worried about goodness Vs a devilish creature, and proceeded to summon creatures not good.
In the first round the summons tried to damage the devil, the DM thought about it and said "sorry, nope".
Am I right?

[Starlight1978]

OK, the motivations of your DM and the way of handling the thing may be debatable, but if I'm reading this correctly:
You asked if a summoned monster with DR 15/mag bypass a DR 25/mag.
The DM gave an answer, which is correct, but it covers only partially the immunities of said devil.
You didn't worried about goodness Vs a devilish creature, and proceeded to summon creatures not good.
In the first round the summons tried to damage the devil, the DM thought about it and said "sorry, nope".
Am I right?

No,

the Devil does not have DR/good at all. He simply added the DR/good to the abilities of the Devil.

Also, i am not the summoner, nor did i ask the questions. I just stated how the official 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion regarding DR/magic works.


Even if the summon pierces the DR, it would only deal non-lethal damage against the devil's Regeneration. Ghargatula has almost 400 hp, so it wouldn't have been too close to fainting, either.

[Edit]: DR/Magic on a CR 16 creature would be utterly useless. He should have updated it to DR/Good (or DR/Good or Silver) before the combat, yeah, and ret-conning your own rulings to cause PCs to lose is bad form, but this might not be so clear-cut.

It would deal non-lethal damage, but since it's 200 per round, it would faint one round later, or maybe 2. It would most certainly have prevented the Devil from killing the Summoner.

I am not debating whether DR/magic is not very good on a CR 16 creature, yet that is what the creature had and what we agreed upon. Dragon's gain DR/magic along the way of growing up, not that usefull either, but that is the way it is. Do note that in our (weird) campaign, i am the only character that could overcome DR/magic personally in the situation we were in. Also, all spellcasting was made unavailable (25% success, 75% chance random bad things can happen). Three out of the five characters use spells, the summons were cast through an item (which negated the random magic effects).

So, even if your statement is not true in our case (but is 99% of the time), if at the point where i stated the creature was 3.0 he claimed it was not fair to give him DR 25/magic instead, i could have replied by saying if the summon (which exists in 3.0) where 3.0 he would have DR 15/+3 and thus would have been able to overcome its DR too......
If after that he would still decide to give him DR/good it should not have been DR 25, as not even the highest CR Devil has that.
And even if he still would enforce a DR 25/good at that time, it would be better than adding it a few rounds later when realising the Devil was not going to handle the damage and he was going to "lose".

[Killer Angel]

If after that he would still decide to give him DR/good it should not have been DR 25, as not even the highest CR Devil has that.
And even if he still would enforce a DR 25/good at that time, it would be better than adding it a few rounds later when realising the Devil was not going to handle the damage and he was going to "lose".

At this point, I suggest that you speak privately with your DM. Leave the summoner out of this, and explain your doubts:


I see a few possibilities:
1. He noticed the text of regeneration, interpretted it in a wrong way and does not want to admit his mistake.
2. He did not want to lose.
3. He needed someone to die (when a player dies, he goes to a god we need to save, and clues are given at that time)
4. He really felt he needed to suddenly add DR 25/good

I do not like any of the possibilities and which ever it is, the summoner is feeling screwed. I personally am worried i do not "trust" the DM anymore.
(snip)
I have a feeling this will not work out well, either we do nothing and continue playing a game that is less appealing to us, where i am afraid the summoner might quit on us.

If your DM is a smart guy, he'll understand the mistake and the related risk, and will repair with maybe a fifth possibility.
For example, were I the DM, I would say: "I did not made the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5 for that monster and doing it on the fly was a mistake. When you start dealing so much damage i thought that I missed something, the devil was going to die too quickly for its CR, so I imagined that there was something we were missing, and I added the DR/good which seemed fine. I apologize, I'll never use again 3.0 monsters without upgrading them before and looking twice at the conversion. The summoner obviously is dead, So I'll reward the character in some way (see point 3 of your list)".
But I'm not the DM...

[Curmudgeon]

I noted that a 3.5 monster could never have DR +2 since it does not exist in 3.5 and that the official conversion would be to make the DR25/+2 -> DR25/magic.
That's not right. You need to go to the D&D v.3.5 Accessory Update Booklet page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) and download the "Core rulebook update" PDF. Here's an excerpt:
This booklet includes revised damage reduction entries for every monster in Deities and Demigods, Epic Level Handbook, Fiend Folio, Manual of the Planes, and Monster Manual II. If you’re converting other monsters that don’t appear in those books, follow these general guidelines:

• Make the damage reduction amount (the number before the slash) 5, 10, or 15. As a general rule, use 5 for weaker monsters, up to CR 4 or 5. Use 15 for strong monsters, CR 13 or higher. Use 10 for everything in between.