[3.5]Tower Defense type characters.

[TurtleKing]

Ok it looks like maybe playing in a campaign that has us defending a bridge. Going to have waves of mooks enemies of increasingly CR coming with rest periods every so often yet no clue how often. Here is what I have come up with: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=363167 The basis of my character is being able to last virtually all day. Still trying to figure out my flaw feats and shopping.

So what suggestions do you have to make my character more powerful? I am source book limited due to my laptop died.

Also what kind of characters would you create for a tower defense type game?

[Jheska]

Well since its gestalt I'd have at least one of you play a half minotaur/half ogre/something large sized crusader//anything. Give him a spiked chain and plenty of attacks of opportunity and his reach will allow him to hold pretty much the whole bridge.

[TurtleKing]

Bridge size is 50ft wide and at least 100ft long. So may not be able to reach from one side to another. Plus that means your are reactive. Your "anything" side if possible get Warshaper could extend your reach even further as well more attacks.

My guy is potentially proactive. One tactic could be setting up the Energy Wall with Wall of Gloom on subsequent rounds to entrap low HD enemies from leaving so they slowly die.

[Gwendol]

A Large character will have a reach of what... 25'? That's covering the width of the bridge right there. Put up some barricades (mundane and cast Wall of ...) to funnel the enemies, and limit LOS and LOE, the rest of the team can hang back and support/heal/pick off the few that still slip through.

[gkathellar]

For the other side of that Spiked-Chain gestalt, you want War Hulk.

[TurtleKing]

...Wait...doesn't that render the other side unusable? The whole no time to think part? Can the Crusader still be used?

[The Glyphstone]

...Wait...doesn't that render the other side unusable? The whole no time to think part? Can the Crusader still be used?

No time to think only affects skills, so it'd only ruin Diamond Mind maneuvers. It's not a permanent rage-type 'unable to concentrate' effect.

[Suddo]

How much crazy BS do you want. You are gestalting so I always have trouble wondering how much you are allowed to push it. Main questions: Dragon Magazine, Double Prestige Classes, Flaws, somewhat obscure references, also what point buy/stats.

Also how are summons handled. And are you going to be dispelled? If you aren't going to be dispelled then DMM(Persist) might be the best route with Crusader. I don't have my complete divine in front of me but basically:

True-Neutral (This is the reason you don't go Crusader) Human
Cloistered Cleric // Warblade: Turn Undead from Cleric, Metamagic: Extend Spell, Metamagic: Persist Spell
Dread Necro // Warblade
Cleric // Warblade: Divine Metamagic (Persist)
Cleric // Warblade
Cleric // Warblade: Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain)
Cleric // Warblade: Extra Turning
Cleric // Warblade
Cleric // Warblade
Cleric // Warblade: Extra Turning, *Fighter Bonus Feat*
Cleric // Warblade

There's probably some other things you can squeeze into the build but this is the simple version. I'm also away from my books.
The DMM fuel you have should be about:
3 + 2(Mod) + 4 + 4 = 18
18 * 2 = 36
So that's 6 buffs.
Divine Power, Vigor (Mass Lesser), Holy Transformation (Lesser), Righteous Might and 2 other.
Spells gotten from here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7468.0).
The down fall that of this is that Warforged is not preferred. Though probably doable after looking at it.

You can cheese this more but I'll wait till you say go.

[gkathellar]

No time to think only affects skills, so it'd only ruin Diamond Mind maneuvers. It's not a permanent rage-type 'unable to concentrate' effect.

Actually, not even that. No Time To Think doesn't have any affect on Diamond Mind, since Concentrate is a Con-based skill, while only Int-, Wis- and Cha-based skills are affected.

[Tvtyrant]

Okay, if they are mooks there is a reasonable way to do this. Use the feat that adds a negative level effect to a spell (Fell Snap or something like that). Then make a permanent, invisible fell wall of fire. The enemies will run through the wall, drop dead, and you simply cut off their heads so they don't spawn as Wights.

[legomaster00156]

Okay, if they are mooks there is a reasonable way to do this. Use the feat that adds a negative level effect to a spell (Fell Snap or something like that). Then make a permanent, invisible fell wall of fire. The enemies will run through the wall, drop dead, and you simply cut off their heads so they don't spawn as Wights.
Afer the corpses start piling up, I think the enemy is going to get smart.

[Gavinfoxx]

Afer the corpses start piling up, I think the enemy is going to get smart.

...And not charge. Which means you hold the bridge. =D

[The Glyphstone]

You'll need more than just the Crusader and/or the Wall, because there will inevitably be waves of flying enemies (who will still follow the line of the bridge).

[Necroticplague]

So it might be useful for us to know if their are any spells that stop flying. I can think of Downdraft, anything that entangles, summoning walls in front of them (if they have less than good manueverability).

[legomaster00156]

You should also consider enemies with Dispel Magic destroying your Walls, and enemies finding alternate ways around the bridge. Don't be unexpectant of enemies with Climb clinging to the bottom of the bridge, for example.

[Tvtyrant]

Hmmm, maybe make a visible wall of fire on their end of the bridge, then a bunch of persistant images of wall of fire all over the place, and a single invisible death wall on your side. Add glyphs and traps as needed!

[TurtleKing]

Excellent suggestions and builds. Here is the setting: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229605 As you can see the DM is allowing homebrew after he has reviewed it. Toward the bottom of page 2 is a list of all the interested as well the four sheets already posted. Part of my reason for putting this thread up is seeing the others sheets posted.

[Gavinfoxx]

Going to have waves of mooks

By the description of that game, this thing you said? It is blatantly false.

[TurtleKing]

Then let me rephrase that has waves of enemies of increasingly CR.

[Gavinfoxx]

Then let me rephrase that has waves of enemies of increasingly CR.

You might want to rephrase that where it matters, in the OP...

[Krazzman]

Ok, since I played Orcs must die pretty much the last week:

First, you need one healer in a true state of buffing, healing and so on.
Second another point is: have "mooks" yourself, via leadership or so on (I suggest Archers due to range or flying summons [eagles and stuff])
Third is an Artificer/Trapsmith for making traps, barricades and magic items
Fourth a Tank in the means of: funnel enemies, then kill them one by one.

Furthermore, how deep is the space under the bridge? If they fall, will they die? Is the bridge the only way?

Hope this helps

[TurtleKing]

On some of those don't know for the bridge or such since DM hasn't revealed it yet. If going with traps best for auto-resetting ones such as walk over a spot and triggers a...magic missile trap. Besides I think most are going at this as to be self-suffient with a few as buffers.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would make sure that you all get and use spell turrets from DMG II.

Have a guy who has craft wondrous item have a bunch already pre-crafted, just need to set the tiny things up. Here are some example spell turrets!

Level 1 Spell Turret
Magic Missile (Evocation)
Power Word, Pain (Enchantment)
Ray of Enfeeblement (Necromancy)
Lesser Orb of Acid (Conjuration)

lv2-
ice knife (conj)
ray of stupidity (ench)
rainbow beam (evoc)
ironthunder horn? (tran)

lv3-
ice lance (conj)
ray of dizziness (ench)
sound lance (evoc)
spell vulnerability (trans)

lv4-
orb of ____ (conj)
thunderlance (evoc)
enervation (necr)
rainbow pattern (illu)

lv5-
vitrolic sphere (conj)
cyclonic blast (evoc)
miasma of entropy (necr)
earth reaver (tran)

lv6-
acid storm (conj)
chain lightning (evoc)
ray of entropy (necr)
extract water elemental (trans)

lv7-
antimagic ray (abju)
stun ray (conj)
radiant assault (evoc)
glass strike (tran)

lv8-
field of icy razors (evoc)
incendiary cloud (conj)
power word stun (ench)
polymorph any object (tran)

[TurtleKing]

Aw man I wished I learned more when I was taking Game Art at Full Sail University. Would so make a D&D TD game using spell turrets. Though for that first level would change out Lesser Orb of Acid with Hail of Stone. A no roll to hit aoe damage that doesn't allow saves or SR. Try to add Force Missile and Chain Missile as they are more powerful versions of Magic Missile and Chain Missile is long range with a burst effect at the end. Need those force effects for incorporeal and etheral enemies. Another thought is adding a spell turret with Disintergrate or feature to clear away areas to add stuff there. Wall of Stone or Iron to set up the base.

[Randomguy]

Wouldn't destroying the bridge be a good starting move?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea. Just rebuild the bridge with walls of stone at a later point.

[Ravens_cry]

As crazy as it might sound, there might be an advantage to not destroying the bridge. Yes, it means the enemy has a much harder time getting across, but when they do, they can attack on all fronts. Been able to potentially cross the bridge, even though they lose lots of men and material, might cause them to incur the sunk cost fallacy, throwing wave after wave at you, hoping you'll break, much more than if the bridge wasn't there.
Am I over-thinking this?
Perhaps, but it's something to consider, no?

[Tvtyrant]

You can always destroy the bridge once they already have a sizable force on it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Breaking the bridge is only viable if the players (and whoever they are defending the bridge for) don't neccisarily need the bridge. If its more important the enemies don't reach whats on the other side, destory the brigde. If its more important that the bridge remain in the PC's employer's hands for whatever reason, don't destory the bridge.

[Suddo]

My main question, no I didn't read the who thread about the adventure, is how often do you rest. Basically are spells worthless or are they okay. Also eventually everyone will succum to exhaustion unless things go really fast so I'd ask if you are in a epic no exhaustion, or need to eat, field. If not everyone should probably go warforged. Or maybe not who knows. On that subject though:

Half-Black Dragon Fire-Souled Warforged
Trait: Detached (-1 Reflex, +1 Will)
Trait: Quick (+10 Speed, 1 less HP per level)
Flaw: Poor Reflexes (-3 Reflex)
Flaw: Pathetic (Dexterity)
LA // Crusader: Toughness, Troll-Blooded, Adamantite Body
LA // Crusader
LA // Warblade: Improved Bull-Rush
LA // Warblade
LA // Fighter: Power Attack
LA // Warforged Juggernaut: Endurance
Dragonfire Adept // Warforged Juggernaut: Dragontouched, Draconic Aura (Swiftness)
Fighter Feat Rogue // Warforged Juggernaut: Steadfast Defender
Fighter Feat Rogue // Warforged Juggernaut: Exotic Weapon Profieceny (Spiked Chain), Level Feat
Pious Templar // Warforged Juggernaut

So let the fun begin:
Half-Black Dragon Gives the following: (MM 146)
Gain dragon subtype
+4 Natural Armor
Darkvision 60, low-light vision
Immunity to Acid
1 per day breath weapon
Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2
LA +3
Fire-Souled has the following: (Dragon #314 pg23)
Gain fire subtype
Overwhelming Passion (Su) (I'll note what it does if you need)
1/day Haste
Inspiring:+1 morale bonus to attack and skill rolls to allies in 10ft of you; +2 morale bonus to saves against charm and fear effects.
Unshakable: Immune to Stunning and Dazing effects.
+4 Cha
Leadership (as a bonus feat)
+2 to leadership score
LA +3
Warforged Gives:
+2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
And a bunch of other things.

Troll-Blooded basically gives you 1 Regeneration and Light Sensitivity. The pre-reqs are Toughness and being first level.

So just from that we have
+8 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, +4 Cha
Stats (pre-adjustment):
16 Str
18 Con
14 Dex
14 Wis
16 Int
18 Cha
Post:
24 Str
22 Con
14 Dex
12 Wis
18 Int
22 Cha


You get Con + Cha as your Will Save
You get Dex + Int as your Reflex Save (if you ever need it)

Lets see here you're immune to:
Poison
Sleep Effects
Paralysis
Disease
Nausea
Fatigue
Exhaustion
Effects that cause the Sickened Condition
Energy Drain (^Warforged)
Non-Lethal Damage
Extra damage from Critical Hits
Mind Effecting spells and abilities (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)
Death Effects
Necromancy Effects
Ability Damage
Ability Drain (^Warforged Juggernaut)
Fire Damage
Stunning
Dazing (^Fire-Soul Template)
Acid Damage (Half-Black Dragon)

You also take all damage as non-lethal damage unless its Fire or Acid. You are immune to all three types of damage you can take so you are immune to damage. The only things that can kill you are kill effects (disentigrate and the like) and massive damage (more than half? your health in a strike).
You also have stupid high Fort and Will saves with Mettle.

You have a mook I don't know what to do with him beyond just remake a little version of your self. Maybe give him a bow instead?

The downfall of this build:
Low mobility: You movement rate is 35 naturally (20 base + 10 Quick(Flaw) + 5 from Dragon Aura) this is terrible.
No Flight: If fliers become a thing you a pretty much out of the game if you don't get some help.
You are dazzled in the light: This is a small price to pay but a price non-the-less.
Low Reflex: I sack your reflex due to the low amount of Save vs Death effects it has to offer, in my experience. This will allow the DM to get plenty of Wand of Wonder effects off though that will be especially fun.

If someone can find me a 1 LA template that makes you Large this build would gain wings and then cover it's biggest weakness, it would also increase your reach with the Chain (it would probably lose either 1 Dragon Discipline or Psychic Warrior). If there's a template that requires more it fine I'd just prefer not to lose two levels.

Things I question:
Is Steadfast Determination worth +5 to Will Save? I didn't see the stat array when I first wrote it up. If not what should the build get. Maybe Improved Trip.
I thought about 2 Paladin instead of 2 Crusader. Did I choose right?
Did I put the 18s in the right places?
Was Pathetic(Dexterity) the right choice? Maybe Wisdom if I don't replace Steadfast Determination.
I really sack my Reflex with my trait and flaw. Worth it? The down fall being that he will get to Wand of Wonder the crap out of you.
Pious Templar and Dragon Discipline worth it? Dragon Discipline is more for at-will see invisible.
Things to do:
Level Up Stats. I can't decide.
Calculate stuff out.
Buy equipment. Suggestions: That belt that give +2 to everything if you can. And the bracers that let you wield a larger spiked chain (I think that give you more reach).

[Godskook]

Bridge size is 50ft wide and at least 100ft long. So may not be able to reach from one side to another. Plus that means your are reactive. Your "anything" side if possible get Warshaper could extend your reach even further as well more attacks.

My guy is potentially proactive. One tactic could be setting up the Energy Wall with Wall of Gloom on subsequent rounds to entrap low HD enemies from leaving so they slowly die.

Large sized creature with psy-warrior/ardent levels sufficient to get multiple size increases from expansion(feasible at level 9ish) is gargantuan in combat. Add to this a spiked chain and Inhuman Reach(Lords of Madness), and you've got 20' natural reach, 40' with your chain. You yourself are 20' wide. Standing dead-center on a 100' long bridge, you threaten the entire width of the bridge and as far as both ends. Optimize for dex and tripping, opponents will have a difficult time ever crossing the bridge as long as such a monstrosity stands.

Combo with a PC who's got strong range with decent endurance, such as an archer, soulbow, or warlock. For a grittier option, a DFA with entangling exhalation works too, but requires closer ranges, and is thus riskier.

[TurtleKing]

Such as a character like mine in terms of strong range? Mine has Fell Flight and Eldritch Spear. Though might want to stay close so See the Unseen is useful. Now as for that size what would the weight be? Cause if that bridge isn't so much then it may collapse under the defender's weight. Kinda defeating the purpose.