So... another Wizard variant

[Bearpunch]

... this (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20120125) is upsetting. Another wizard. This time it's elemental, though the spirit companions familiars are pretty cool.

On the plus side, there is a new monk build. :D
Finally!

[Duos Greanleef]

Well, it's nice to see some updates for pre-essentials material. I've not had a DDI account, so perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems like 4E proper is all but forgotten these days.

[Bearpunch]

Well, kind of. But apparently (I haven't bought it) the Feywild book was very non-essentails.

I'm really happy to see new monk stuff. The psionics need more support!

[Sorcerer Blob]

Well, kind of. But apparently (I haven't bought it) the Feywild book was very non-essentails.

Heroes of the Feywild is "very non-essentials" if you describe that moniker as being a return to the AEDU-style of design, which it is.

It's also my favorite 4e book since Dark Sun, so there's that!

The Monk build seems interesting, but I'm curious about the Wizard variant you mentioned? Is it the Elementalist? I had heard talks that the Elementalist was going to be a new Sorcerer, but I didn't see anything about a new Wizard variant on the WotC-site. (Granted, my navigation of said site leaves something to be desired.) Edit: I'm a little slow, but just saw the linked article. Interesting, but it'd be nice to see some non-Wizards love.

[Bearpunch]

I ban wizards in my games just because they have so many options. The powers at hand are almost worse than the 3.5 powers, though not more powerful. The 4e wizard becomes more of a "I got this" character than 3.5 with all of the add-ons.

On a side note, the elementalist is something I have heard of too, and a new Sorceror build might be cool.

I would say an elemental shaman build but I think Dark Sun did that.

Why don't they make an entirely new class?

[Tegu8788]

They are wizards of the coast after all. I'm curious how well any new keywords will be integrated, and how much will need to be errated or house ruled to make sense.

[DrBurr]

I ban wizards in my games just because they have so many options. The powers at hand are almost worse than the 3.5 powers, though not more powerful. The 4e wizard becomes more of a "I got this" character than 3.5 with all of the add-ons.

On a side note, the elementalist is something I have heard of too, and a new Sorceror build might be cool.

I would say an elemental shaman build but I think Dark Sun did that.

Why don't they make an entirely new class?

I agree we need new builds for sorcerers and a new shaman would be cool too but why are you banning the wizard their still pretty balanced just more customizable. I could see them being ban if they had access to the entire spell list but their limited to 2 powers per Level for deciding their daily load outs. 3 with expanded spellbook.

[Surrealistik]

I think it's hilarious they're giving the Wizard yet more support over others like the poor Sorcerer; this is exactly what the class with by far the most options in the game needed.

[Kurald Galain]

I ban wizards in my games just because they have so many options.
If it helps, the recent extra options they've gotten tend to suck. There are almost zero wizard powers worth taking in Heroes of Shadow and Heroes of the Feywild.

What bothers me about the Witch and the Sha'ir, even aside from them being just a weaker version of the standard wizard, is that their fluff is stolen. They get their power from making a pact with some entity: that's what warlocks do.

[Sorcerer Blob]

I ban wizards in my games just because they have so many options. The powers at hand are almost worse than the 3.5 powers, though not more powerful. The 4e wizard becomes more of a "I got this" character than 3.5 with all of the add-ons.

I had never considered this, but it's pretty spot-on.

I don't necessarily ban Wizards in my games, but I do encourage the Mage and then restrict it to the Heroes of Line. Far less fuss, still a lot of options but not nearly as much.

That said, it's very easy to get by without a Wizard in any given game.

And yes, I'll echo the need for Sorcerer love. Hell, I'd take anything to expanding upon existing magic-source types to whole new sources.

[Bearpunch]

If it helps, the recent extra options they've gotten tend to suck. There are almost zero wizard powers worth taking in Heroes of Shadow and Heroes of the Feywild.

What bothers me about the Witch and the Sha'ir, even aside from them being just a weaker version of the standard wizard, is that their fluff is stolen. They get their power from making a pact with some entity: that's what warlocks do.

Strength isn't really the problem, it's the utility, they get cantrips AND utilities. And, especially in low-level games, cantrips are puzzle solvers. Mage Hand, for example.

Not to mention some of the utilities are just ridiculous.

I really hate the stolen fluff thing, because warlocks are my favorite arcane class because of the fluff. And now people are going to play the Witch/Sha'ir because "its the wizard, but better."


I had never considered this, but it's pretty spot-on.

I don't necessarily ban Wizards in my games, but I do encourage the Mage and then restrict it to the Heroes of Line. Far less fuss, still a lot of options but not nearly as much.

That said, it's very easy to get by without a Wizard in any given game.

And yes, I'll echo the need for Sorcerer love. Hell, I'd take anything to expanding upon existing magic-source types to whole new sources.

And, now that we are on the subject of other arcane classes, why couldn't the Sha'ir be a warlock? You entered a pact with a beast from the elemental, blam-oh, new warlock.

Or a sorceror, even. I think sorcerors are a little bland in 4e, but they still deserve support, maybe to make them a little more interesting me. Once again, the Sha'ir could have easily been a sorceror build.

Wizards just wants me to but paizo and other books, don't they?

[Surrealistik]

I don't necessarily ban Wizards in my games, but I do encourage the Mage and then restrict it to the Heroes of Line. Far less fuss, still a lot of options but not nearly as much.

Mage is actually more powerful than the Wizard, especially in Epic.

[Sorcerer Blob]

Mage is actually more powerful than the Wizard, especially in Epic.

Good to know, though we primarily play solely in the the Heroic and early-Paragon tiers, so we've never really had an issue with Epic Tier Wizard craziness.

[Bearpunch]

Going slightly off-topic here, Epic tier is ridiculous. I have never played or DMed it, but I can't even imagine it. It would take forever, and there is no way you could be average (GI) joes in a country anymore, you would be kings and astral warriors and... I just think Wizards took it too far.

[Kurald Galain]

Not to mention some of the utilities are just ridiculous.
Such as?


And now people are going to play the Witch/Sha'ir because "its the wizard, but better."
I fail to see how Sha'ir is better than the original wizard. Most school and implement specializations are much more useful than the sha'ir-only familiars - even in heroic tier. The main problem with the familiar is (1) action economy, in that you need to spend a minor to put it on the map, and one or two moves to put it in position; and (2) fragility, in that it only has one hit point. One hit, and the party's elemental resistance vanishes.

Of course, witches get neither of that, making them worse than Sha'ir or regular wizards, and being locked in to a fairly lacklustre L1 power doesn't help.

That said, Djinnling + Agile Opportunist is a powerful combo, but that's because Agile Opportunist being a very powerful feat.

[Bearpunch]

Heh, my bad, I meant "warlock, but better." Stupid hands typin stupid things.

As for the utilities, I have to check my books when I get home, but I remember the wizard we had in our game managed to get through just about everything with ease. Maybe I'm exaggerating, and I probably am, but what I am trying to say is wizards don't need anymore support.

[Kurald Galain]

what I am trying to say is wizards don't need anymore support.

Oh, I completely agree. I have no idea why the designers feel the need to put yet another section of wizard spells in every single one of their latest books.

[Mindartis]

but I remember the wizard we had in our game managed to get through just about everything with ease.

Everything except for athletic/endurance skill checks. :p

[M.c.P]

In this case, I think it has more to do with how poorly the Witch was received in Feywild.

WoTC has this weird thing about printed material, they seem loath to change, remove, or errata much of it. And, near as I can tell, the Sha'ir is largely "Witch, but better". Same arcane familiar, same power recovery and choice, except they also get resists and subclass specific familiars that are pretty good at first glance. Also no pre-chosen powers, so that's cool too.

I think, from a design standpoint, they wanted to redo the witch into something that can really use its familiar. I'm hoping for powers that work with the familiar, and perhaps feats to make them more survivable.

I still would like to play a witch sometime, if only to use that divination utility, non-combat familiars, and the freedom to pick up non-combat utilities to really mess around with a DM outside of an encounter.

[Shatteredtower]

What bothers me about the Witch and the Sha'ir, even aside from them being just a weaker version of the standard wizard, is that their fluff is stolen. They get their power from making a pact with some entity: that's what warlocks do.

It never felt like it.

For how much effect pacts had on play, all talk of them felt more like campaign promises made on the assurance that covering the costs of new programs could be left to the next administration. Sure, you can work it into your campaign... just like another player's fighter can work in a blood debt.

An IOU you're never required to pay, even in part, is an empty thing.

[Kurald Galain]

In this case, I think it has more to do with how poorly the Witch was received in Feywild.
I'm not convinced about that. Given the development and printing cycle of a splatbook, it is very likely that most of HOEC was already done before HOF was released to the public.

And, the Sha'ir isn't much better than the Witch, except that its specific familiars are good. After all, any wizard can "really use his familiar" for the low cost of one feat, and familiar-related spells have appeared in Dragon magazine about two years ago.


Shattered - good point, I think it'd be nice if the game had consequences for the nasty blood pact every warlock, tiefling, and witch seems to have made in the past. Currently, a high-level warlock can take down the very entity that gives him his power, and that never affects his efficiency in the slightest.

[Lord Raziere]

Heroes of the Elemental Chaos?

Yay! I should also get Heroes of the Feywild...