Fort vs. Str vs. Will save for intense pain

[ajfonty]

Hi all,

I'm constructing a crit table for my campaign, and I'm run across a difficult question.

As an example, on of the (higher-end) results is that the opponent's hand is cut off, and the enemy needs to make a check to do any actions from then on. Would you classify that as a Fortitude check, a Strength check, a Con check, or a Will check to do an action through the shock/pain of losing a hand? I know Will saves typically are against magic, and are defined as such, but it's tough to ignore the fact that a person needs a lot of willpower to act in spite of the pain and shock.

Thanks in advance.

[Bearpunch]

Fortitude or Will, I think. Strength would be a measure of ones actualy strength, which has nothing to do with losing a hand.

I think willpower makes more sense just because one needs to have the will to ignore the pain.

Then again, fortitude could work, too. To resist the pain.

But the more I think about it, the more Will makes sense. I would go with will, even though it may seem an odd choice as written.

[Ashtagon]

Conventionally, maintaining focus through pain is a central function of the Concentration skill check. However, this favours caster classes strongly at mid-high levels.

As a saving throw, Fortitude would make the most sense, which gets a Con modifier.

[Ernir]

Be careful about implementing supercrit rules, those tend to screw over the players more than monsters.

Anyway, I say Fortitude. Bodily harm and all that.

You might also want to grab for the "saves with different abilities" variant rule (that I think is pretty cool, but no one ever talks about for some reason). It's on page 35 of the DMG. This introduces the option of something like a Fortitude + Wisdom save or a Will + Con save.

[Greenish]

If you want to plague your melee'ers with a crit table, then, please, for the love of all that's good and holy, at least make it a fort save.

[AmberVael]

There is no penalty associated with getting a sword through your gut, an arrow in your eye, or having your nerves ripped out and played like a sitar. Even when you're disabled, you only have to worry about bleeding to death.

I point this out because in context, it seems strange to have a pain penalty for having a missing hand when you would not have one under other circumstances.


That all being said...

A check to resist pain would definitely not be a Strength check. Resisting pain has nothing to do with muscle and brute force. I think I would also be inclined to make it something other than a Constitution check, as saves seem more appropriate for resisting things than skill-like checks.

There is, however, precedence for ignoring pain with a skill check. Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm) allows you to ignore a caltrop wound. Concentration, as previously mentioned, is used to keep working on spells despite pain and injury.

This in mind, I think a will save or wisdom check could be appropriate.

Of course, there are also the spells Flensing and Wrack, which are described as incredible pain, both of which require Fortitude saves.

Mechanically, I do think a save would be the best choice, but Will or Fortitude would both be appropriate. Fortitude would be more in line with canon effects, but there is plenty of reason for Will as well.

Edit: Fortitude probably is the most appropriate, looking at the standard saving throw descriptions.

[The Glyphstone]

Fortitude save all the way - it's an attack on the body/physical harm to the body, which Fortitude is intended to cover. You may need willpower to fight while dismembered, but you also need willpower to, say, resist the urge to keel over and vomit uncontrollably (Stinking Cloud, other Nauseate effects), to use one example.

Will isn't for magic so much as for attacks on the mind, which a cut-off hand is not.

[Tyndmyr]

Hi all,

I'm constructing a crit table for my campaign, and I'm run across a difficult question.

As an example, on of the (higher-end) results is that the opponent's hand is cut off, and the enemy needs to make a check to do any actions from then on. Would you classify that as a Fortitude check, a Strength check, a Con check, or a Will check to do an action through the shock/pain of losing a hand? I know Will saves typically are against magic, and are defined as such, but it's tough to ignore the fact that a person needs a lot of willpower to act in spite of the pain and shock.

Thanks in advance.

No save, they just continue acting normally. Reference: Power Word: Pain, a spell that literally kills you with the intensity of the pain, but which does not impact your actions at all.

Also, crit tables are bad. See my blog (travislerol.com/wordpress/) for why.

[Suddo]

Will or Fort which ever is higher. I'd also give a huge bonus due to adrenaline being pumped through his system. Once the fight is over though yeah just let screw him until he gets a couple good heal checks and pain meds.

[Tyndmyr]

Will or Fort which ever is higher. I'd also give a huge bonus due to adrenaline being pumped through his system. Once the fight is over though yeah just let screw him until he gets a couple good heal checks and pain meds.

What? Why?