[PF] Daggerspell Master and A Roguey Mage?

[Amoren]

Yes, yet another random thing I'm doing to pass the time until university starts up. This time I'm creating a dagger wielding spellcasting rogue character for a rather lax online game, where homebrew material, so long as its not too insane, is likely allowed, a well as 3.5 material.

I'm a rather big fan of Daggerspell Master, despite its flaws, so I thought I'd like to try and get it into pathfinder with some updates fixing its problems. My ideas so far is increasing its hit die to d8 (like a rogue), giving it 10/10 caster level advancement, and changing its sneak attack advancement to be like the Unseen Seer (1, 4th, 7th, and 10th level). What else would be a good change in the update (besides changing its concentration skill requirements since that spell doesn't exist anymore?). I want to keep the idea of a rogue-thief blending spellcasting and sneaky dagger fighting into one package.

As for build, I'm stuck on what to use for the spellcasting class, a both sorcerer and wizard appeal to me. I have decided to make the first level spellthief and use Master Spellthief to gain light armor casting and steal spell, a well as early entry at 5th level.

[gkathellar]

I'm a rather big fan of Daggerspell Master, despite its flaws, so I thought I'd like to try and get it into pathfinder with some updates fixing its problems. My ideas so far is increasing its hit die to d8 (like a rogue), giving it 10/10 caster level advancement, and changing its sneak attack advancement to be like the Unseen Seer (1, 4th, 7th, and 10th level). What else would be a good change in the update (besides changing its concentration skill requirements since that spell doesn't exist anymore?). I want to keep the idea of a rogue-thief blending spellcasting and sneaky dagger fighting into one package.

That should be more than enough.


As for build, I'm stuck on what to use for the spellcasting class, a both sorcerer and wizard appeal to me. I have decided to make the first level spellthief and use Master Spellthief to gain light armor casting and steal spell, a well as early entry at 5th level.

Wizard/Spellthief 1 looks about right, for less MAD.

[Amoren]

That should be more than enough.

Well, I was just trying to make sure. I know how vaunted spell casting levels are, and I was worrying if the Daggerspell Mage's abilities wouldn't hold up in Pathfinder. Particularly Arcane Infusion, but even Daggercast has the problem of you trading a touch spell into a regular melee attack for 1d4+stuff damage (you'd already get sneak attack on the touch attack, and as far as I know it doesn't apply twice).

This compared to the prestige class' competitor, the Unseen Seer, which is great but doesn't lend itself into a melee dual-wielding dagger build readily, leads to some problems. But I guess upping the hit die, and bringing the sneak attack and caster level on par with USS evens it out a bit.

[Amoren]

Alright, so, I'm going with the above changes to DSM (10/10 CL, 1, 4, 7, 10 SA, and d8 hit die, also changing the save advancement to Pathfinder's progression for PrC), as well as making Daggercast cause a dagger infused with a spell a touch attack since it's the main point of the prestige class, and the extra 1d4+stuff damage won't be that game breaking. I'm also pondering if Double Daggercast should allow a touch spell to apply to both spells or not (for example, one vampiric touch to have both daggers charge with it) but that can be worried about later.

What I'm interested in now, however, is actual advice for this build, Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 1 at the moment. What wizard school should I invest in for a four level dip? (I'm leaning towards Divination, for the +2 Initiative and acting in surprise rounds, as well as more casts of Hunter's Eye once I grab two levels of Unseen Seer down the line), but illusion and transmutation fit the character concept well.

Also, I'm leaning towards importing Eidetic Spellcaster for the Pathfinder wizard, trading scribe scroll and the familiar... Or trading a good chunk of his WPL for a custom item that acts as a sort of telepathic spellbook.

[DeAnno]

DSM can actually be very good if you do it right. I had one in a fairly high OP party with me and he did pretty well alongside Frenzied Berserkers, Indomitable Clerics, etc. Some of this advice is targeted at 3.5, but since you're using a daggerspell mage it seems like some bleed-through is allowed.

Some tips that come to mind for making him good:
1) Try to really emphasize your melee and your SA. Get Craven, dip Barb 1 and get Pounce. With Wraithstrike you can charge in either flanking or round 1 or invisible and do really good damage at really low cost, and release two daggerspells (stored before combat) in the bargain. I cant emphasize enough how much consistent Pounce is required for the Daggerspell Mage, so you can on the first round charge and get off both your precast daggerspells. If you don't want to (or can't) dip Barb 1 you must absolutely get it from somewhere else with no swift action cost.

2) In general you want to always be walking around (in dangerous situations) with daggers out and spells stored inside. This means you can charge and full attack and unleash both spells in the first round easily.

3) The best daggerspell is probably Shivering Touch, double daggercast into your daggers before combat preferably. Even better, if your party has a metamagic specialist, buy a ring of spell storing and have them cast heavy metamagic shivering touch into the ring then you cast it into the daggers.

4) This is more of a general Rogue thing, but when you can afford it buy the various crystals for your daggers to get SA through on things. Already some of these things are immune to Dex damage so you want to at least be able to hurt them.

5) If your game plays with Alter Spell, Polymorph, etc get on top of that and be a big heavy ACed tanky thing. This helps you more than most casters since your SA and daggercasting lets you really be good in melee instead of just some average monster of your HD.

6) You may want to emphasize defense with your buffs. A Charging double daggerspell full attack on the first round high in initiative is very intimidating for the monsters to see and will draw a lot of attention to you off your teammates, be able to survive that attention. You can pay less attention to this if you by good fortune have a very good dedicated in combat healer (Delay Death, Heal Beams, etc etc).

7) Stealth with HIPS is very useful, for getting surprise rounds with good charge positions, for getting away from too much aggro (baggro), for getting more SA in midcombat, for just about everything you would want. A Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (Continuous) from Tome of Magic is the best way to get it probably.

8) Don't forget you're a Wizard, maybe bring some battlefield control along for when you can't really charge or anything. If your BFC makes it easier for you to do a Pounce next round even better. You should try to pick BFC spells which will be most useful in situations where doing a lot of single target hate with a charge (your specialty) will be least useful.

9) This may seem obvious but spells that emphasize your mobility, such as Haste, Fly, etc are great. Also Skill Tricks (Complete Scoundrel) like Twisted Charge have low opportunity and action cost and are perhaps more useful for this type of build than any other. With skill tricks and mobility buffs charging is much easier for you than it might be for more mundane characters.

10) Daggerspell Flurry can be hard to pull off because often you needed to wraithstrike or swift invis already, but if for some reason you can pull it off teleporting away from melee with it is usually a pretty good idea (sets up more charges, lets you hide, etc). Also setting up a Wall of Force between you and various threatening things is good because it's invisible and they won't know you did it (leading to wasted actions).

[Bloodgruve]

In a 3.P game I'm playing I'm building a Beguiler/ Spellthief/ Daggerspell Mage/ Unseen Seer.

Feats are Weapon Focus Dagger, TWF, Magical Training, Versatile Spellcaster, Master Spellthief, Arcane Disciple; Pride, Craven, Item Familiar, Arcane Strike, and a couple others.

Arcane Disciple for Divine Power(3.5) and Magical Training/Versatile Spellcaster for any Wizard spells I can find. BAB is a bit low but I have an Inspire Courage Bard in the group ;)

It's a lot of fun so far but I'm not into DSM yet. Thought Beguiler would fit the flavor well.

GL
Blood~

[Amoren]

I already saw Shivering Touch, and definately gonna be abusing that. Right now my strategy is store Vampiric Touch (since he's starting with only one level of DSM right now), then full attack and applying sneak attack damage to the touch spell for more damage shielding. Then shiveling touch. I noticed a useful feat for this in Complete Arcane, something that gives +2 damage for a touch spell. Usually not that good, but considering Shiveling Touch is 1d6 damage for cl rounds, it's like a 66% boost to it...

I've leaned towards a transmutation specialization for the extra transmutation spells per level, which I thought would be of better use than the +2 initiative bonus from Divination (I can also use the +1 physical stat to strength to boost it up to an even 14).

Another thing I failed to mention, this DSM is going in with the Shadow Template from Lords of Madness, thus granting it Shadow Blend for the 50% concealment in anything outside daylight, and evasion to take advantage of the good reflexes. I'm also picking up the Item Familiar feat to help buy off the level adjustment, as well as all the other goodies that feat presents.

As an aside, does anyone know of a way in Pathfinder for you to attack with a main hand and off hand weapon as a standard action? I know there's a feat or two for this in 3.5, but those come with the stipulation of only applying precision damage once. Also, when would be the optimum time to take a two level dip of Unseen Seer for Hunter's Eye, and is it better to top off the bulld with Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster, or Swiftblade for BAB and haste goodies?

Right now though, I'm helping out another friend with his character concept, I'll probably make a new thread for that.

[Amoren]

So, doing some research on Magus for my friend, I've got a lot of ideas (the two concepts are similar in how they blend martial and spellcasting). Specifically, I've come across such gems as Magical Lineage and Spell Perfectionist, making the idea of specializing in a spell to use might be a good idea.

That leaves me with trying to decide what spell I want to turn into hitting like a truck with my daggers, if at all. Shocking Grasp was the choice of the Magus guide I read, but Vampiric Touch might also be a decent choice.

[DeAnno]

The best touch direct damage spell is probably Combust (10d8 for a 2nd level spell). Or course it's fire and SR: Yes so YMMV. It tends to work very well with metamagic even with no investment in reduction because of its extreme damage/spell level efficiency.