Swiss Southern Magician Theurge?

[fryplink]

So, I was looking through feats when Southern Magician caught my attention, or more accurately, it's interaction with Theurge Classes. So, I have a Wizard with Southern Magician, and 6 ranks in Knowledge Arcana and Religion. Now this Wizard can cast 2nd level (Arcane) Wizard spells and 2nd Level (Divine) Wizard spells.

That means I'm eligible for the Mystic Theurge PrC, correct? Now, assuming I'm eligible, how do my spells level? Do I lose the "divine" level, or do I get two additional spellcasting levels of Wizard with each level? (the monthly cheese contest I going to be amazing next weekend if this works like I think it does)

[Drathmar]

I am AFB at the moment but I am pretty sure even if that would qualify you you would just lose the divine spellcasting levels because (I would need to look up the exact wording of the feat to be sure) even if a wizard is casting divine spells, he himself is still an arcane caster. I am pretty sure being able to cast divine spells doesn't make you a divine caster (as counter-intuitive as that sounds) but I could be wrong.

[Tyndmyr]

Then...what DOES make you a divine caster?

[Drathmar]

Then...what DOES make you a divine caster?

Using a divine power source! (read below)

Just looked up the feat and basically you would be casting arcane spells as divine spells.

Not sure if that would qualify you.

However at the end it does say the method of preparation and source of power do not change, therefore even though you are casting a divine spell, it is cast from an arcane power source so you aren't a divine caster.

It doesn't make you a divine caster, it makes you an arcane caster that can cast arcane spells as divine spells (basically to get around arcane spell failure) at least if I am reading the feat correctly.

[fryplink]

Ok, is there a method of getting a divine source on a Wizard while retaining the arcane one? even for just one spell?

[Drathmar]

Ok, is there a method of getting a divine source on a Wizard while retaining the arcane one? even for just one spell?

Hmm, a level of cleric. Reading into this more, it does sound like it would qualify you.

You would only need 1 level of cleric though instead of 3... so instead of losing 3 caster levels in each, you lose 1 wizard caster level and 3 cleric caster levels.

so with Wiz3/Cl1/MT 10

you would cast as a: 13th lvl wizard, 11th level cleric, and be a 14th level character.

Losing a single caster level is generally bad, but going mystic theurge in this way is a much better proposition than needing 4 levels of each class, and might actually make it worth it.

Then again it could work like you think, as I said, I could be wrong but that is how it reads to me... and seems to make the most sense that you wouldn't be a divine caster. I'd wait for other answers before you take what I say as 100% cause I'm not 100% sure.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spells per Day
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.


Spells
A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

Even if you can get Wizard spells to count as divine spells, Wizard is not a divine spellcasting class.

For a powerful Wizard-theurge, your best option from a RAW standpoint is Ultimate Magus (CM) with the Spontaneous Divination ACF (CC). Even that is extremely shaky and never suitable for actual play.

[fryplink]

the idea isn't just to use mystic theurge, its to get both sides of MT to level a single class, doubling it's spell progression. (about using a cleric level)

Ok, that makes sense (the comment about what qualifies as a "divine Spellcasting class"). Is there a way short of gestalt to do what I'm asking

[Drathmar]

the idea isn't just to use mystic theurge, its to get both sides of MT to level a single class, doubling it's spell progression.

I doubt it's possible. I was just putting the best way I could see to use the feat with mystic theurge.

[fryplink]

I doubt it's possible. I was just putting the best way I could see to use the feat with mystic theurge.

ok thanks, if character is going to do it like that, he'll skip cleric and use southern magician to get quick access to Ur-Priest spell progression.

[gkathellar]

the idea isn't just to use mystic theurge, its to get both sides of MT to level a single class, doubling it's spell progression. (about using a cleric level)

Ok, that makes sense (the comment about what qualifies as a "divine Spellcasting class"). Is there a way short of gestalt to do what I'm asking

Ultimate Magus can possibly do it, as Biffoniacus Furiou mentioned. I say possibly because it's questionable whether the ability to cast spells spontaneously actually qualifies a wizard as an "existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class." Arguably it does not, nor should it.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Due to the fluff in the Southern Magician feat I would say no, but the feat Alternate Source Spell from Dragon 325 pg#61 should work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are only a few ways to get your Wizard spellcasting ability to exceed your character level.

Probably the most reliable/playable one would be a Kobold, preferably Desert Kobold (UA) for no Con penalty, with the feat Dragonwrought (RotD). Start out venerable age for +3 to your mental stats, and no penalty to physical stats, as per Dragonwrought. Get the Loredrake archtype from Dragons of Eberron, to get +2 levels worth of Sorcerer spellcasting ability, which could be outright banned if your DM has ever heard of it before. Also get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) (bottom of the page) for another +1 level worth of Sorcerer spellcasting ability. Start with the Spellhoarding derangement and accompanying template, from Dragon magazine 313, also not acceptable in many games. Spellhoarding causes you to switch your Sorcerer spellcasting ability for Wizard spellcasting ability of equal level, so at Sorcerer X/ Wizard Y your Wizard spellcasting ability will be X+Y+3.

Ignore any suggestions of using the White Dragonspawn template, or any other color of Dragonspawn for that matter, it is completely incompatible with Dragonwrought Kobolds.

Go something like Beguiler 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10, using Beguiler's spellcasting to meet UM's prerequisites. When your lowest caster level class gets advanced at UM 1, 4, and 7, pick Sorcerer because it has a caster level of zero since it was traded toward Wizard, and advance both Wizard and Sorcerer at the rest of the levels. When your Sorcerer spellcasting ability gets increased, it retroactively applies to Wizard due to Spellhoarding. Here's a breakdown level-by-level:

Character Level. Class Level (spellcasting ability)
1. Beguiler 1 (Beguiler 1), Dragonwrought, Spellhoarding, Loredrake, Any Metamagic Feat (flaw), Draconic Rite of Passage
2. Sorcerer 1 (Wizard 3)
3. Wizard 1 (Wizard 4), Draconic Reserve
4. Wizard 2 (Wizard 5)
5. Wizard 3 (Wizard 6)
6. Ultimate Magus 1 (Wizard 8), Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
7. Ultimate Magus 2 (Wizard 10)
8. Ultimate Magus 3 (Wizard 12)
9. Ultimate Magus 4 (Wizard 13)
10. Ultimate Magus 5 (Wizard 15)
11. Ultimate Magus 6 (Wizard 17)
12. Ultimate Magus 7 (Wizard 18)
13. Ultimate Magus 8 (Wizard 20)
14. Ultimate Magus 9 (Wizard 22)
15. Ultimate Magus 10 (Wizard 24)

I would never recommend bringing anything like this to any actual game. If you want to play a powerful Wizard, just use conventional methods. Trying to progress your spellcasting ability faster than your level is completely unnecessary and likely to ruin the game for everyone else.