Conflict needs solving

[comk59]

Me and my friend are having a little friendly debate:

Basically, we cannot agree on whether a 8 incarnate/10 witchborn binder could beat a lvl 18 wizard. I was wondering if anyone here could shed some light on the subject.

[SleepyShadow]

What books are available for each character, or what are the builds if you have them already?

Personally, my money is on the wizard.

[comk59]

We assume that core books, incarnum, and complete arcane are available.
and the builds should make sense, e.g. you cant have a wizard based solely around countering a witchborn binder.

[SleepyShadow]

Alright, I've taken a look at the Witchborn Binder, and my opinion is the wizard will win roughly 60-75% of the time. Here is my analysis.

* The Witchborn Binder relies on its meldshaper level to utilize its abilities, but it only provides 6/10 advancement. This tips the fight in the wizard's favor.

* The Dispelling Orb is useful against the majority of wizards, since nowadays most are likely styled after TheLogicNinja's Batman style of play. Curiously, this ability would not likely effect the now rare Evoker/Blaster Caster.

* Mage Shackles is useful in theory, but in practice it favors the wizard, again due to the Binder's lowered meldshaper level. This can be offset by a significant investment of essentia, however.

* Word of Abrogation seems of little use to me in this one vs. one situation, because at best both combatants have wasted their turns, and at worst the incarnate has done nothing while the wizard may freely cast.

* Spiritflay would be my weapon of choice were I in the shoes of the incarnate. Fortitude is typically a wizard's weak point, so being able to inflict damage and to nauseate the wizard simultaneously is a strong option.

* Grim Integument would be a decent ability if the DCs were based off of meldshaper level or even class level, but they are too low unless the incarnate invested more essentia than the ability is worth.

Ultimately, I believe the wizard would win because the witchborn binder requires a lot to go in his favor, while the wizard only needs one appropriately chosen spell to work.

[gkathellar]

Nothing the Witchborn Binder can do is really a credible threat to the wizard. Meldshield and Spiritflay eats into your precious essentia for very little in the way of returns, Dispelling Orb and Magic Shackles have to hit before they even have a chance to fail, Word of Abrogation requires you to ready an action while the Wizard flies more than 60 feet away from you and barrages you with spells, and Grim Integument requires you to get even closer.

The wizard, in the meantime, needs only cast Celerity into Superior Invisibility before doing whatever he wants to you — probably from a far greater distance than you can plausibly affect him from.

[comk59]

Not sure if this makes a difference, but it was decided that the Binder, as a wizard hunter, gets the drop on the wizard. However, it's not looking too good for the incarnate.
Which kinda sucks, since it means that the witchborn binder is incapable of what he's supposed to be good at.

[Jay R]

The winner of the last World Series won 4 games against the loser, but also lost 3 games against them. The last NBA Finals went 4-2.

It is simply NOT TRUE that the same person or team will always win. That's why we play the game.

[Oindoth]

I dunno, he might have a chance against the Wizard if he has a buddy with him. Alone, there's nothing he can do to prevent the wizard from eventually casting Time Stop, which gives him all of the time he needs to either buff, summon or Gate and win. If he's got a friend along though, they might be able to take advantage of Mage Shackles and Dispelling Orb. With Practiced Meldshaper to fix the holes in his DCs, that might give him a chance. With a buddy. Without him ... well, not much chance.

[gkathellar]

Not sure if this makes a difference, but it was decided that the Binder, as a wizard hunter, gets the drop on the wizard. However, it's not looking too good for the incarnate.
Which kinda sucks, since it means that the witchborn binder is incapable of what he's supposed to be good at.

Pick any 2:
Contingent Polymorph into a Dire Tortoise
Celerity
Foresight
Surprising a wizard without being a wizard is like ... okay, have you ever read Sin City? You know how Marv was basically the most dangerous human being on the planet, and it took someone like the creepy mute cannibal dude Kevin to sneak up on him? If Sin City were D&D, Marv and Kevin would be wizards. You literally cannot ever possibly sneak up on these guys, they can only sneak up on each other.

[SleepyShadow]

They are all correct. I myself did not mention Celerity abuse due to your limitations of core+incarnum+complete arcane. The more material you factor in, the easier and easier it becomes for the wizard to win. The Witchborn simply has no further source of tricks, while the wizard's supply is nearly infinite.

That said, even given your restrictions, a wizard could be deprived of all of his magic and still win if he managed to cast Polymorph before the binder could lock down his spell casting completely.

[Person_Man]

Witchborn Binder is a terrible PrC for a variety of reasons. My money is on the Wizard.

[comk59]

Hmm... yesterday with my friend, an interesting point was raised. While the wizard is undoubtedly much more powerful, the Witchborn Binder is effectively an Inquisitor, has the full authority of the throne behind him, and could hire a more powerful wizard to take down his target.

[gkathellar]

Hmm... yesterday with my friend, an interesting point was raised. While the wizard is undoubtedly much more powerful, the Witchborn Binder is effectively an Inquisitor, has the full authority of the throne behind him, and could hire a more powerful wizard to take down his target.

Wait, what? Your friend's argument is that a Witchborn Binder — a special agent dedicated wholly to hunting spellcasters — can defeat a wizard by calling another, more powerful wizard?

Why is the Witchborn Binder in the picture at all, if he's not actually capable of doing his job, and someone else is far better at it?

[Mystify]

Wait, what? Your friend's argument is that a Witchborn Binder — a special agent dedicated wholly to hunting spellcasters — can defeat a wizard by calling another, more powerful wizard?

Why is the Witchborn Binder in the picture at all, if he's not actually capable of doing his job, and someone else is far better at it?

You make an excellent point. Having to call in somebody else to do your job for you means you aren't good enough at it.

[comk59]

Well, I think that it's something along the lines of an Imperial inquisitor.
look at it this way, which has more power, an Inquisitor or a rouge psyker that is being possessed by a greater demon. Simple, the deamonhost psyker.

But who would win? That is a much harder question. The daemonhost is a daemonhost, but the Inquisitor has... well, y'know, all that inquisitor stuff.

Actually, that's a fairly accurate comparison. The witchborn binder is effectively an Inquisitor, with almost unlimited resources, full authority, and the ablility to arrest people for "suspected intent to commit treason", Which we all know really means "I feel like it, stop asking questions or you're next".

[Oindoth]

Yeah, but then it's not the Witchborn Binder that's doing the job. It's a Wizard. The WB can be replaced by an Aristocrat of an equivalent, or lower, level, and be just as successful. How could you possibly call that a win for the Witchborn Binder?

[comk59]

That's a fair point, but keep in mind that at their best, Witchborn Binders are still just government agents. By the same token, necromancers are doing none of the work, and aren't winning because a lower level cleric can do the same thing.
Witchborn get very, very few benefits from rules, and most of them are inferior to similiar rules of other classes.

However, a Witchborn will ways win against any law abiding opponent, and will call in massive reinforcements when they encounter an unlawful opponent that they and their team are unable to take care of.

Yes, other classes can blow up cities, but very few classes can walk up to the lord and take full command of the cities resources without the need for a single dice roll.

Just sayin'.

[Gavinfoxx]

And... how does a mundane army -- or any resource the lord can likely muster -- help in defeating any decent wizard, unless that lord already has access to equivalent or near equivalent spellcasters??

[gkathellar]

The witchborn binder is effectively an Inquisitor, with almost unlimited resources, full authority, and the ablility to arrest people for "suspected intent to commit treason", Which we all know really means "I feel like it, stop asking questions or you're next".

None of which helps him against the wizard, who can break WBL and ignore his authority with equal ease.

And in fact, no, he doesn't have unlimited resources, you're making that up — the Royal Purse mechanic already covers the crown's investment in him, and anything else is arbitrary and up to the DM.

It also fails to answer the question of why Witchborn Binders would be employed by the crown in the first place. Giving these resources to a caster would end up being more effective.


However, a Witchborn will ways win against any law abiding opponent, and will call in massive reinforcements when they encounter an unlawful opponent that they and their team are unable to take care of.

Unless they abide the laws of somewhere else, or find the laws unjust. And honestly, even if reinforcements could do anything, do you think the Witchborn Binder is going to survive a battle with a wizard for long enough to call them?


Yes, other classes can blow up cities, but very few classes can walk up to the lord and take full command of the cities resources without the need for a single dice roll.

Again, this has no actual mechanical basis, and in most settings (including any based on the actual structure of most medieval societies) has no real fluff basis either. You're getting much too caught up in the idea of Witchborn Binders as WH40K Inquisitors.

[Mystify]

"I'm going to hire a witchborn binder, so they can use my resources to hire a wizard to do their job!"

Yeah, that makes no sense.

[Zaq]

Witchborn Binder is one of the worst classes in MoI. It's really, really bad at what it wants to do (and in fact is really bad in general). I wouldn't trust it to beat a Warmage (a true Warmage, not even a Rainbow Warsnake), let alone a proper Wizard. Even if Wizards didn't curbstomp everything, I still wouldn't bet on the Witchborn Binder. It's a failure of a PrC. I went through its mechanics one by one a while ago. Lemme see if I can find the post.

[NNescio]

Why the Witchborn Binder sucks, from The Incarnum Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0):


Witchborn Binder

I look at this PrC, and cringe a little inside. That is a huge chunk of your Meldshaper advancement it is eating. I recommend rethinking this PrC, or asking for an improvement to the advancement.

Entry Requirements: Ok, let me just set the record here. You want 14 skill points (possibly more, as some of those are CC skills for Soulborn and Incarnate), two bum steer feats, a 6 level investment into a base class at the least, and no spellcasting ever, for d6 HD, 4+Int/level, one good save, 3/4s BAB, and four sharp kicks into my Meldshaper advancement? I'm all ready hating this class.

Meldshaping: Four. That's right, you lose 4 Meldshaper levels. Totem Rager loses two. Soulcaster, well, they lose two Caster Levels at the least. This class alone costs you 4 Meldshaper levels. Ouch. And the class doesn't even grant Chakra binds. This is not a good way to make your class. The BAB isn't worth it for Incarnates, Totemists can be better magic-haters with one Soulmeld, and Soulborns can't even finish the PrC until Epic.

Detect Magic: At will Detect Magic is handy, but not a really good ability.

Meldshield: Cool. Hexblade 2 gives Cha to all saves against spells/SLAs. This requires Essentia, and is limited to a +5 bonus at 20th. You can easily get a +20 from Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny (Slaughter), or other classes. And +10 of that can apply against everything.

Royal Purse: Do you know how much gold the average nobleman has at any given point in the year that he can freely spend as he chooses according to DMG 2? 1000 GP. A drop in the bucket at this level. And you get this ability 1/level, not day.

Dispelling Orb: Neat little trick. It has three key problems though:
1: Dispel Magic, as the spell, is limited to a +10. At ECL 20, you aren't going to dispel s*** with this.
2: Meldshaper Level took a hit all ready, and this ability is ML-dependent.
3: The insight bonus caps at 4, which means you are SOL against high CLs.

Essentia: Oh look, something worth having. This class could have just increased your Meldshaping abilities instead of granting more Essentia, as it really would do the same damn thing.

Mages Shackles: You know those problems with the Dispelling Orb? Replace the first one with "It is a melee touch attack", and you have my opinion on this feature. At 20th level, if you are an Incarnate, your BAB will be 12. Totemist? 14. Touch AC is easy to hit, but both of those classes have a problem with their AC and low HP, which means you aren't going to be using this to shut down a Pit Fiend Blasphemy lock. Plus, you are using it on Arcane spellcasters who have access to higher AC bonuses than most others. And you have to overcome SR without a Practiced Meldshaper feat existing and the -4 ML.

Word of Abrogation: Should have been subsumed into the Dispelling Orb in the first place. This suffers the same consequences as that ability, save for the Dispel Magic cap.

Spiritflay: While you get a similar effect from Dissolving Spittle, this is untyped damage. They get a save instead of Touch AC, and the DC is decent for a change. The damage is pitiful though. Nauseating them is a good tactic.

Grim Integument: Aside from being able to suffocate them, this ability is almost junk. About 11 uses/day though, which is the average you can normally get without CO's help. But the DC is so low it almost isn't worth trying.

As I said before, this class gives off the stench of weaksauce. This is a pitiful Meldshaper PrC option.

...'though I'm not sure how Grim Integument is supposed to suffocate its target, due to the "unlimited supply of breathable air" clause.