what kills level one players?

[zlefin]

I often hear about level one players being too deathprone, and i'm wondering what the primary cause(s) of that are;
and a google search was not helpful; so i'm asking here.

I suppose crits seem the likeliest suspect; or inaccurate CR encounters/monsters. Aside from that, not much should actually kill them, aside from too tough fights of course. I guess it's more a result of random variances with a few bad die rolls;

I'm sure i'm missing something, or underestimating the odds of the bad events happening.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Also the greatest possible HP one can have at 1st level is about 20 (d12+5 from 20 Con+3 from Toughness) and considering most character's won't have such high HD or Con scores, they will be within the range of a single weapon die rolls possibilty. Average Rogue has 6-8 HP. Longsword (standard weapon for low level NPC) does a d8. One good hit, dieing. One decent, critical levels. One weak hit, half HP.

[Mystify]

Creatures with a high DR but low CR can be murder on a group of level 1s.

Yeth hounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/yethHound.htm), for instance. CR 3 sounds like a boss-battle. DR 10 means they lose, esp since level 1s are not known for their silver weapons.

You are right, crits can be quite lethal. Basic orc barbarian with a battleax: +4 str mod, +6 after raging, +9 damage from strength. 3d12+27... yeah, thats pretty much an instant kill. 30 damage minimum means a 20 hp character is automatically dead, so even a d12 barbarian with a +5 con boosted to +7 while raging, only clocks in at 19 hp. However, this also means that 3 hits from an axe will kill them without crits, and that is against the high-hp characters.

[gbprime]

Or just plain old hit them twice. Even with max HP at 1st level, clerics, druids, rogues, monks, sorcerers, wizards, and even rangers can all be felled by just hitting them with 1d6 damage more than once. Usually takes a third hit to do in the fighter or the barbarian.

And heaven forbid the monster is rolling 1d6+1 or even the dreaded 1d8. A single hit can wipe out the wizard or the rogue. One arrow. Thud.

I always start my campaigns at level 2 for precisely this reason. (Plus it lets people bring in +1 LA if they want to risk that one-shot vulnerability. But it's a conscious choice on their part, so I don't feel bad if they fall down a lot. They asked for it.)

[tyckspoon]

Outright 'kill' is perhaps a little rarer than we might make it sound; it does usually take a crit to blow straight through the -10 HP cushion at level 1. But dropping a character into that disabled range is very easy with any kind of enemy numbers and focus fire from more intelligent foes, because 1st level HP values are still pretty small compared to weapon damage dice values. Even the beefiest of 1st level characters are typically only 2 hits from being dropped by good damage rolls on a standard one-handed weapon, and if whatever you run into carries two-handers it only takes average rolls instead.

(This is incidentally why very low-CR opponents tend to be small and/or use excessively crappy weapons- it keeps their damage output under control. The book-standard Kobold carries a sling and does 1d3-1 damage with it, which is.. pretty pitiful and even a poorly-built Wizard with no Con can expect to survive a few hits. Do something sensible from the monster's perspective, like give them light crossbows instead, and now they do 1d6 damage, which can drop a d4 HD class in one shot and makes the higher HP classes fear for their safety after one hit.)

[Silva Stormrage]

Also orcs. Orcs are INCREDIBLY lethal at level 1 due to their + 4 strength. Give an orc warrior a Greataxe and it can hit for 1d12+4. Thats is very very very dangerous for PC's.

[Coidzor]

Crits from almost anything, but especially high strength humanoids wielding weapons in two hands. So, orcs.

Almost anything incorporeal that can kill them.

Revived Fossil Baboons.

[MukkTB]

Normally a lvl 1 dies because of HP loss. They can't take many hits at all. If you're playing a lvl 1 you're attached to then it makes the most sense to hang out in a group. Don't venture out where you could get attacked alone. If you treat lvl 1 as still being an apprentice and hang out with more capable guys you'll be fine.

...Unless it turns out you're really a red shirt.

[zlefin]

so, crits are the biggest offenders; at least in terms of actually killing;
otherwise they'd merely be dying and can be stabilized during or after the battle easily enough.
certainly the CRs don't account for how mcuh of a difference weapon choices make; and the system allows for glass cannon builds which die easily, but can one hit kill on a crit; so any weapon changes/choices affect CR by quite a bit.

though shouldn't this still happen at other low levels? like levels 3-6? it's still quite possible there for some of the monsters to be crit-you die, especially if they change equipment at all to the better choices.

also, level 1 chars shouldnt' be facing enemies of enough numbers to take advantage of focus fire unless they're very weak; or the CR for the encounter is being calculated incorrectly.

[tyckspoon]

also, level 1 chars shouldnt' be facing enemies of enough numbers to take advantage of focus fire unless they're very weak; or the CR for the encounter is being calculated incorrectly.

2 Orcs is overall encounter level 1, as are 3 Goblins and 4 Kobolds.

[candycorn]

Level 1 Orc Barbarian. Weapon: Greataxe.

Elite array (as NPCs with PC levels get). 15 str, 14 con. Boosted to 19 Str. Rages at 23 Str.

That's an attack at +7 for 1d12+9.

A Warblade with an 18 Con, has, at level 1, 16 HP. Staggered with a roll of 7+, which is a 50% chance of being staggered or knocked into negatives.

Alternately, 2 Orc warriors with Str 14, use greataxes for 1d12+3 each.

[Silva Stormrage]

Oh another low level killer... orc skeletons... They have higher initiative by 5 (assuming that the orc's don't have improved init) they have + 3 to ac, they have damage reduction 5, claws, and they are CR 1/3 so you could send 3 of them at the party. The only way they are weaker is that they have 1 less BAB...

[zlefin]

well, it sounds like some of the problem is also due to poor CR design;
and would be fixed by simply putting monsters at the correct CR; it's possible that an unusually high number of the low level monsters are not at the correct CR; which is making the challenges deadlier than they should be. certainly those skeletons are not CR 1/3; so the system is just blatantly wrong there.

but there's plenty of known issues with the CR system;

and of course general problems with how a lot of numbers are set that don't necessarily make a great deal of sense.

So it doesn't seem terribly worth fixing; as the problems are a result of systemic issues; and building fixes for the whole thing would be a lot of work; and since i'm not in charge of making a version 3.8; I see little reason to do THAT much work.

[Pilo]

Well, the main cause of death is stupidity.

When you are only level 1, you have to be careful.

[Erik von Nein]

What I found funny was that, upon reading this topic "What kills level one players?" I saw that the one immediately under it was "Bears."

But yeah, poor CR design is almost part and parcel of 3.5. The designers put almost no thought into how anything functions or what threat any of these monsters have, let alone when you start templating them.

[Tr011]

Guns don't kill people, I do crits do.
Also +1 to Pilo: At level one, often players die from fighting things that are above their level, don't withdraw when they should etc.
And they do not have higher-level escape skills (like Invis or Dimension Door).
You also have much more bad rolls on level 1. You can fail on things like rolling concentration to cast defensivly, fail on tumbling etc.

[candycorn]

well, it sounds like some of the problem is also due to poor CR design;
and would be fixed by simply putting monsters at the correct CR; it's possible that an unusually high number of the low level monsters are not at the correct CR; which is making the challenges deadlier than they should be. certainly those skeletons are not CR 1/3; so the system is just blatantly wrong there.Compare to a party with a cleric... or a dread necro. Fight over, and quick. There are issues with the CR system, but skeletons are pretty on. ORCS are the problem, there.

Specifically, level 1 characters are vulnerable to high offense, low CR enemies. There are several.

[zlefin]

actually, skeletons aren't accurate; i've been running through the mathcraft underlying the way the system is supposed to, and does to a degree work;
and quite a lot of the <1 cr monsters are off; skeletons and orcs.
A confounding factor is that for undead, there exists specific ultrahoser abilities on a few specific classes; it's harder to evaluate CR when extreme counters exist. The degree to which turn undead breaks low CR undead is quite high; i'm still assessing the actual effect, and trying to quantify it.

[Gwendol]

I find kobolds to be troublesome to low-level adventurers: with NA, high dex, and properly outfitted they easily get AC around 19, which makes them very hard to hit for most 1st level characters. Also, there are usually plenty of them at a time, and even if most attacks will miss (their attack bonuses are pitiful) some do hit, which is enough to cause trouble.

[candycorn]

Also, a level 4 kobold adept is CR 1. Two feats, a level 2 spell, and several level 1 spells.

A web spell and a burning hands spell would be 6d6 fire damage to anything in the area. Total average damage? 21.

Sudden Maximized Scorching Ray would be a range touch for 24 fire damage.

Both are positively lethal.

[ShriekingDrake]

I think the answer is "just about any creature in the game." Level 1 characters have low hit points, have few weapons and spells at their disposal, have poor saves, and are at the mercy of any infelicity on the DMs's part. In a world of monsters, magic and traps, first level characters are just delicate, or at least they are especially vulnerable if the DM is not careful or if they, themselves, don't play with caution. So many times, the desire for adventure outshines common sense. Players don't have their characters run away when faced with an obviously superior circumstance.

[Gwendol]

Exactly. Even a pair of kobold rogues could wreak havoc: surprise round launch arrows, tanglefoot bags, or whatever, 1st round gang up on caster, ...

[GnomeGninjas]

Ghouls, even more so against a small party.

[The Succubus]

A DM that's had a really bad day at the office.

[Ernir]

The last level 1 character I killed was with an orc with a battleaxe (or was it a javelin?) landing a hit on the party Bard. Who then fell off his horse, and bled to death.

Stuff just happens when you're low level. =/

[ericgrau]

Luck on rolls against a small HP total and special abilities that level 1s can't handle seem to be the main issues so far. It's not that the encounters themselves are normally so difficult, it's that a stiff breeze might take out a level 1 PC if the breeze gets lucky.

The DM should make sure he lets PCs make knowledge checks against unusual foes and/or introduce them via the plot. PCs should carry a backup ranged weapon and casters a varied spell selection. Alchemical items come at the same moment level 2 hits, if not sooner. Heck even at level 1 a smart PC carries a torch for random fire needs and some oil for molotovs. And if too many screw up preparations then level 1 PCs need the willingness to run in 4 directions. Oh, and 2 or more should have ranks in heal for the inevitable dying allies.

[Czin]

Ghouls, Skeletons against a party that only has slashing and piercing weapons, Viper swarms (they can be a legitimate boss encounter at CR 3, and they will wreck your s***), Orcs, a pair of hobgoblins, and killer #1...

...That one Kobold who got lucky with a crossbow.

[Pilo]

On the other hand the opposite is also true.

I am currently playing a level one character in PF (25pts buy).
The level 1 half-orc barbarian of my group kills anything in one hit (+5 to hit while raging and power attack, 1d12+9 of dammages). 6 rounds of rage per day.

[Lans]

Also the greatest possible HP one can have at 1st level is about 20 (d12+5 from 20 Con+3 from Toughness) and considering most character's won't have such high HD or Con scores, they will be within the range of a single weapon die rolls possibilty. Average Rogue has 6-8 HP. Longsword (standard weapon for low level NPC) does a d8. One good hit, dieing. One decent, critical levels. One weak hit, half HP.

Depending on what you mean by "greatest possible", an azurin that used his bonus feat for shape soulmeld-blood talons- dies at -13 and can fight while in negatives, so effectively he has 27+con mod at 1st level. d12, tougness, blood talons

[Yora]

What I found funny was that, upon reading this topic "What kills level one players?" I saw that the one immediately under it was "Bears."

http://threepanelsoul.com/comics/2008-05-19-082.png

[TeddySlayer]

I've died 3 times at 1st level and have learned these invaluable 'staying alive lessons:

1. Don't insult the mothers of dragons.
2. If you must burn down the tavern, don't start the fire next to a barrel of spirits.
3. Don't swim in cesspools while wearing fullplate.

Seriously though, player stupidity gets us killed alot, but i think that DM's also need to 'twist' the game a bit so the whole party doesnt die off. The players will never notice if you don't roll crit damage for that orc or if you let 1 or 2 attacks miss as long at there is still a challenge.

[Greenish]

Depending on what you mean by "greatest possible", an azurin that used his bonus feat for shape soulmeld-blood talons- dies at -13 and can fight while in negatives, so effectively he has 27+con mod at 1st level.You're thinking of Rageclaws. Bloodtalons only give bonus to spot when you invest essentia into them.

In one campaign, I had a 1st level warforged totemist with adamantine body, shaped Rageclaws and Wormtail Belt. Only 11 hp, but 21 AC, DR 2/Adamantine, and could keep fighting 'till -10 hp (or -13 by switching essentia). :smallwink:

[Ingus]

1st level characters are so weak that, when they piss off the DM, he says "Rain fall, everyone dies".

With 8/10 hp as average, you're just one bad roll ("good" in Dm's perspective) away from dropping into negatives. So an average party is just four bad rolls away from a TPK.

[FMArthur]

1st level characters can't even fight small groups of enemies armed with weapons at all without a significant risk of TPK. It's a whole different game from the one being played at 3rd level and above.

[stack]

As a dm, I just 'ignored' criticals by enemies for the first level or two. It's a pbp, so they don't see the rolls. I didn't want a TPK in their second fight the first time I ever DM'd.

[Czin]

In one modified version of 3.5 with hit location and called shot tables I played not long after skyrim, the 1st level fighter went ahead to scout and was brought into a kobold ambush. The kobolds shot three crossbows, two hitting him in the chest but the fatal one speared him through the knee. We spent about ten minutes laughing at this random coincidence. This was of course; in the day or two after skyrim's release before the arrow in the knee meme became ungodly annoying with it's prevalence.

The moral of the story is; kobolds with crossbows are deadly mofos to 1st level characters.

[Polarity Shift]

I think the answer is "just about any creature in the game." Level 1 characters have low hit points, have few weapons and spells at their disposal, have poor saves, and are at the mercy of any infelicity on the DMs's part.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm

4 of those vs 4 PCs. Heads says the party kills them all, tails says the cats kill at least one person. Feeling lucky? You have three more of those today.

[Tyndmyr]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm

4 of those vs 4 PCs. Heads says the party kills them all, tails says the cats kill at least one person. Feeling lucky? You have three more of those today.

Unlikely. Those, if they manage to hit, cannot possibly do more than 1 damage. They have 2 hp. They have only 14 AC. Anyone in the party can gut one with ease.

This whole housecat = level 1 PC thing is nonsense.

[hamishspence]

When they make full use of their +16 Hide ability though....

[FMArthur]

It really isn't a thing. The oddity about the housecats was that an unequipped level 1 commoner is basically screwed against a housecat.

[Czin]

Unlikely. Those, if they manage to hit, cannot possibly do more than 1 damage. They have 2 hp. They have only 14 AC. Anyone in the party can gut one with ease.

This whole housecat = level 1 PC thing is nonsense.

Quite, virtually any PC class is superior to the commoner class in most every way imaginable. Just because a commoner can't take on a cat with an even chance of winning, does not mean that a fighter swinging around an actually decent weapon with a healthy attack bonus can't. Now monstrous scorpions on the other hand.

[Greenish]

How does improving fractional CR go? Is it just 1/4 + 1 = 5/4?

Specifically, I'm thinking of Magebred Warbeast Cat. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

It really isn't a thing. The oddity about the housecats was that an unequipped level 1 commoner is basically screwed against a housecat.

Isn't the commoner only barely breaking even when armed and armored?

[Mystify]

It really isn't a thing. The oddity about the housecats was that an unequipped level 1 commoner is basically screwed against a housecat.

And by extension, wizards, who have commoner hp and no armor.

[Czin]

And by extension, wizards, who have commoner hp and no armor.

Two words: Magic missile. That has a 50% chance of killing the cat and if memory serves, renders it's relatively high AC a moot point.

[Mystify]

Two words: Magic missile. That has a 50% chance of killing the cat and if memory serves, renders it's relatively high AC a moot point.

If they get a chance. The cats can easily sneak up on the wizard, and will likely win initative.

[FMArthur]

Haha, that would actually be funny because there are tons of spells they could use to get rid of the cat instantly, but they wouldn't be willing to waste them on the cat until it was too late and the cat's got them down. :smallbiggrin:

[Czin]

Haha, that would actually be funny because there are tons of spells they could use to get rid of the cat instantly, but they wouldn't be willing to waste them on the cat until it was too late and the cat's got them down. :smallbiggrin:
And the rest of the party tells the tavern "He was killed by a huge...vicious...tiger! With horrible gnashing teeth and a meanstreak a mile wide!"

"Then why are the scratch marks so small?"

"The...tiger's cub got to him too! But it was fiendish and breathed fire!"

"Uh-huh..."

Anything to save face.

[Campbellk8105]

Snuggles. Snuggles the Death Kitty kills level 1 players.

[CodeRed]

What kills lvl 1 PC's? Why a boss battle on the beach against That Damned Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)!

Though that's not really just lvl 1s, he'll paste any group of 4 up to about lvl 4 when they start having a chance.

But yeah. CR system broke. I had one character die to a dire rat. It was rather sad as he had such high hopes for his adventuring career.

[Mystify]

The CR system works fine for the most part. Yes, there are some creatures labeled wrong, but it holds up surprisingly well. For instance, the rules for improving monsters. Every time I have used them and thrown the resultant monster against the party, even if I was pushing the advancement to its limit, resulted in a battle of the appropriate challenge.So the CR system may be flawed, but it is not broken.

[Chronos]

Most of first-level play, by sane and experienced players, consists of doing everything imaginable to avoid combat whenever humanoidly possible. You just have to make sure you have a DM who knows he's supposed to award XP out of combat, too.

[Xerinous]

Falchions. Falchions slaughter level one players. 18-20 crit range on a 2d4 weapon is a terrifying thing at that level. I've even seen one drop someone from 12 (maximum) hp to -10 instantly.

[Greenish]

Falchions. Falchions slaughter level one players. 18-20 crit range on a 2d4 weapon is a terrifying thing at that level. I've even seen one drop someone from 12 (maximum) hp to -10 instantly.And MMI orcs come equipped with them by default. Probably because the greataxe's x3 crit modifier meant a lucky orc could one-shot more than just level 1 characters.

[dextercorvia]

Don't you all realize that by slaughtering all of the level 1 players, we are creating a game that isn't sustainable (http://www.xkcd.com/1007/)?

Also:

Soylent Green is PLAYERS!

[zlefin]

i've been doing a more thorough review of the CRs, and alot of the CRs at around level 1 and lower are observably incorrect; and inconsistent with the standards for calibration of crs, especially on humanoids;
and theres quite a few issues with how humanoids are specced as well. at least in the SRD which i'm looking at; there's really a lot of errors/inconsistencies in how they're setup;
critting is a good part of the problem, but alot of it comes from the fact that alot of monsters simply CR'd incorrectly; if the low CR monsters were correctly marked; there'd be a good bit less death I think (still the occasional crit death though)

[INoKnowNames]

You know what kills level one players?

Natural 1's kill Level 1 Players.

[Frosty]

I give my PCs racial bonus to hitpoints at level 1.

Dwarves/Half-orc: 8
Human/Half-elf/Gnome: 6
Elf/Halfling: 4

The extra buffer at level 1 really helps. Also, I don't throw orc barbarians at them until level 2 at the earliest.

[Polarity Shift]

Unlikely. Those, if they manage to hit, cannot possibly do more than 1 damage. They have 2 hp. They have only 14 AC. Anyone in the party can gut one with ease.

This whole housecat = level 1 PC thing is nonsense.

You overlooked that they have 3 attacks each and a high chance of a surprise round. Their initiative while not great is not bad either. In one round that's up to 16 damage going at someone. Their accuracy isn't that much lower than the other things at this level either.

Sure it's ridiculous. It's house cats acting like a pack of lions. The mere fact it's even a consideration though is a testament to how easily 1st level characters die.

[Arbane]

Don't you all realize that by slaughtering all of the level 1 players, we are creating a game that isn't sustainable (http://www.xkcd.com/1007/)?

"Where do heroes come from? Attrition."

Another source of PC death is insufficient healing. Most healy-types will have two, maybe three Cure spells at most at level 1, and good luck affording potions...

[Leon]

What Doesn't Kill level one characters

[FMArthur]

Level twenty characters. Level up some and come back, you're not even worth experience points right now!

[Averis Vol]

my typical level one encounters consist of drunken bar brawls with some dwarves and a gnome with one eye. non lethal damage with a jacked down hit rate due to being bombed? easy XP.

[Coidzor]

Falchions. Falchions slaughter level one players. 18-20 crit range on a 2d4 weapon is a terrifying thing at that level. I've even seen one drop someone from 12 (maximum) hp to -10 instantly.

Don't forget the 1.5xStr!

[candycorn]

Level 1 Orc Warrior with a Falchion? 16 Str, 2d4+4 damage, and a decent chance of 4d4+8. Average damage on crit: 18. Average damage on hit: 9.

Nine damage is enough to drop most characters, and 18 will drop any character not optimized around HP soaking.

[Kol Korran]

though shouldn't this still happen at other low levels? like levels 3-6? it's still quite possible there for some of the monsters to be crit-you die, especially if they change equipment at all to the better choices.


The low level can be deadly, but comparing their chances of dying they grow less and less as you go up levels.

I think that the problem here is the (for a lack of a better term) "room for mistake" factor- a party in level 3 for example that meets a tough challenge, might be hit strongly once or twice, and then be able to use different resources (they have more spells, magic items and the like). a level 1 party can be easily hampered by even the most minor of complications, some of which the DM didn't even plan for. 1st level (and in extent low level) character have less room to maneuver

and they can actually sustain hits before becoming disabled (more hp, better defenses and so on). this gives the higher level party the opportunity to reassess difficult situations and either adapt or retreat quickly prior to getting to the "we're screwed" state.

sure, you could say that a party of levels 2-6 (or higher for that matter) can meet quite challenging situations that make their options more limited, and can spring the "you're screwed" situation fast (petrifying monsters for instance) but there are two factors that still speak for higher level parties:
- on the whole they still have MORE options and resources. level 1 parties are quite limited in the tools they can bring to bear on a situation. you'd be surprised at what players can do with an "innocent" spell they happened to have on a scroll...
- the percentage of such encounters is often lower in higher level parties- you can play with encounters of lower CR, similar CRs and a big range. in 1st level encounters most encounters are either their CR or HIGHER. which means that low level parties, especially 1st level often face (by game design) a greater share of higher than their CR monsters than higher level. which of course, brings the "we're screwed" situation much more.

those are my thoughts at least...

oh, and giant centipedes. :smallwink: