Removing Concentration as a skill?

[Jon_Dahl]

The idea is simple:
Concentration is easy to boost so that stuff like Defensive Casting become ridiculously easy. Quite honestly, with some decent Con you can laugh at basically any Concentration-checks.

So my idea is simple but brutal:
Keep the rules as written, but remove Concentration as a skill. It's simply a Con-check. Feats such as Combat Casting are still allowed.

This would make things more interesting and challenging. Even with a simple Con-check you can still succeed in really hard checks, such as casting a 4th-level spell during an earthquake. All you need is a Con-modifier +4 :smallwink:

[Tvtyrant]

Well, it would remove some Maneuvers. But other than that it wouldn't make too much of a difference.

[Tr011]

Concentration:
Defensive: 15+spell level
Underwater: 20+spell level IIRC
While attacked: 10+damage
While disturbed: DC of distraction
While grappled (with S): 50+spell level
as a move action (Extraordinary Concentration): 25+spell level
as a swift action (Extraordinary Concentration): 35+spell level

The only DC of this that a regular caster could get with con checks is casting defensive or casting while attacked for low damage.

On the other side, I don't see how regular casters would get to do all of the DCs with ease (what you said):
Level 1 Mage: 4 (ranks) + 2 (con) + 2 (MW tool) = +8 total (problems with casting on the defense)
Level 5 Mage: 8 (ranks) + 3 (con) + 2 (MW tool) + 1 (githcraft) + 3 (competence from item) = +17 total (can cast on the defense, has to roll for the other DCs)
Level 10 Mage: 13 (ranks) + 4 (con) +2 (MW tool) +1 (githcraft) + 5 (competence from item) = +25 total (can cast under water, has to roll for Extraordinary Concentration or beeing damaged)
Level 15 Mage: 18 (ranks) + 5 (con) + 2 (MW tool) +1 (githcraft) +10 (competence from item) = +36 total (has to roll for beeing damaged, concentrating as swift action on high level spell, can try Bening Transposition while grappled).

This was an example of a Mage who DOES invest in concentration, uses up item slots etc. Also he needs full ranks in it. So I don't see how this isn't challanging. Btw Defensive Casting will forever suck at level 5+, even with the use of con checks it's still a crap feat.

[Bit Fiend]

I tried that approach once... turned out that the best tactic for wizards is still to avoid making concentration checks in the first place, which they're quite good at...

[Curmudgeon]

You'd be hurting characters who wanted to use skills defensively, not just spellcasters. Like the Rogue who wants to use Sleight of Hand to lift the enemy Sorcerer's spell component pouch, or the character who wants to use Heal to render first aid. These skill uses provoke attacks of opportunity if not done defensively, and the Concentration skill is how skillful characters get that done. A Wizard can make CON their second priority ability. A MAD character can't get the ability as high.

The unconsidered consequences make this a bad idea.

[INoKnowNames]

Insightful Strike ---> Greater Insightful Strike.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade---> Ruby Nightmare Blade----> Diamond Nightmare Blade.

Action Before Thought, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Mind over Body.

That's 5 (or possibly 8, depending on how you want to count it) good reasons why I'd never want to remove Concentration. Not to mention, of course, skills.

Mages stink. Half the things to consider taking them down actually hurts everyone else more.

[Jon_Dahl]

You'd be hurting characters who wanted to use skills defensively, not just spellcasters. Like the Rogue who wants to use Sleight of Hand to lift the enemy Sorcerer's spell component pouch, or the character who wants to use Heal to render first aid. These skill uses provoke attacks of opportunity if not done defensively, and the Concentration skill is how skillful characters get that done. A Wizard can make CON their second priority ability. A MAD character can't get the ability as high.

The unconsidered consequences make this a bad idea.

I've played D&D 3.5 for over 200, maybe nearly 300 hours and no one has ever needed Concentration-skills for anything else expect for spellcasting. Maybe our games are unusual then, but I think Concentration-skill is 99% about spellcasters. If such unusual case would come up that you needed concentration for skills, I'd improvise it then. Maybe a skill-roll, not concentration roll.

[Czin]

I've played D&D 3.5 for over 200, maybe nearly 300 hours and no one has ever needed Concentration-skills for anything else expect for spellcasting. Maybe our games are unusual then, but I think Concentration-skill is 99% about spellcasters. If such unusual case would come up that you needed concentration for skills, I'd improvise it then. Maybe a skill-roll, not concentration roll.

As stated before, there are some more exotic classes that use concentration besides spellcasters, typically for things like maneuvers. Of course, these classes don't exactly show up at every table.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Pathfinder did exactly this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Concentration

They use d20+CL+primary casting stat for concentration. I haven't seen it in play so can't comment on the effectiveness.

[ericgrau]

The idea is simple:
Concentration is easy to boost so that stuff like Defensive Casting become ridiculously easy. Quite honestly, with some decent Con you can laugh at basically any Concentration-checks.
At level 15. That's when you actually auto-pass everything. Though you auto-pass most at level 12. At level 1 making that DC 16 check with a +6 is scary. Not only do you lose the spell the enemy practically gets a free turn. It's a 50% chance of being double screwed. For most levels in most campaigns combat casting is wonderful for anyone who gets close. I played in a game where the difficulty of concentration was boosted and basically a 50% shot not only of failure but of failure and getting hurt too meant that you might as well sit on your hands rather than ever cast a spell defensively. On average it's equally effective.

What you probably want is a more non-scaling concentration difficulty but not one that stays at level 1 omg-are-you-nuts-I'm-never-casting-defensively difficulty. First you add twice spell level instead of spell level to the DCs; now difficulty scales as fast as you get ranks so it never gets easier. That was the poor house rule that fixed it at level 1 difficulty that we all hated. Next drop all the difficulties by 5 so it's fixed at something more reasonable. There, now it's 75% success. Adjust up or down depending on your preferences. Finally consider making the concentration feats weaker and maybe removing the con modifier so that players can't simply grab a +5 from feat tax to make the check auto-pass again: they can mitigate the problem but not remove it entirely so taking these feats isn't such an automatic choice.

Pathfinder's method is good for avoiding a skill tax on casters who tend to max out concentration anyway. But it has the error of screwing over gishes pretty hard. Or even full casters who like melee and want to put a physical stat first instead of a mental one. If you want to do it that way I'd base it on character level and con rather than caster level and casting stat. Pathfinder does scale at twice spell level but since it's based off your casting stat rather than con it's normally a lot easier (except for gishes) than the horror I described in the previous paragraphs (again, see 2nd paragraph for how to handle this).

[Saph]

Pathfinder did exactly this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Concentration

They use d20+CL+primary casting stat for concentration. I haven't seen it in play so can't comment on the effectiveness.

I've played several PF spellcasters and it makes defensive casting much harder, especially since the DC for combat casting is now 15 + twice spell level.

Once you get up to level 9-10 you get to the point where you can combat cast your lowest level spells reliably, but without expending quite a few resources combat casting high-level spells is very risky.

[Tr011]

I've played D&D 3.5 for over 200, maybe nearly 300 hours and no one has ever needed Concentration-skills for anything else expect for spellcasting. Maybe our games are unusual then, but I think Concentration-skill is 99% about spellcasters. If such unusual case would come up that you needed concentration for skills, I'd improvise it then. Maybe a skill-roll, not concentration roll.

Then you don't play with ToB. And not with crazy rogues. If ToB is involved every third or fourth mundane-almost-full-BAB-char will use one or two levels of Warblade to get Con-based will saves 1/encounter.
Some rogues will probably use the concentration maneuvers for 100% sure evasion. Many monsters profit from those maneuvers. Ofc not if ur players don't know what they are missing with the use of concentration.

[Keneth]

I've played several PF spellcasters and it makes defensive casting much harder, especially since the DC for combat casting is now 15 + twice spell level. I agree, rolling Concentration in Pathfinder is risky enough that you don't want to be doing it often until late levels unless you're a Magus and even then you'll fail a lot.

[Psyren]

OP: Have you played Pathfinder? Or you could simply port over their rules vis-a-vis the skill. Seems easier than re-inventing the wheel to me.

As for stuff like Diamond Mind, you can just swap it to Autohypnosis or something.

[navar100]

It's "only" an attack of opportunity. You almost make it sound like a crime against gamedom to avoid it.

However, Pathfinder did get rid of Concentration. DC is 10 + 2 x spell level. You make a caster level check adding your main ability score modifier.

1st level 18 in casting cast is 1d20 + 5 to make DC 12 for a 1st level spell. Need to roll a 7. Combat Casting need a 3.

3rd level 18 in casting stat is 1d20 + 7 to make DC 14 for a 2nd level spell. Need to roll a 7. Combat Casting need a 3.

5th level 19 in casting stat is 1d20 + 9 to make DC 16 for a 3rd level spell. Need to roll a 7. Combat Casting need a 3. I sense a pattern.

7th level 19 in casting stat is 1d20 + 11 to make DC 18 for a 4th level spell. Need to roll a 7. Combat Casting need a 3.

17th level 22 in casting stat is 1d20 + 23 to make DC 28 for a 9th level spell. Need to roll a 5. Combat Casting need a 1.

Hmm. I hadn't done the math before. With two feats (Skill Focus and Combat Casting) in 3E a spellcaster can auto succeed for highest level spell even on a 1 starting at level 4. Pathfinder makes it a bit more difficult but it's not too much, don't need to dedicate skill points, and only use one feat for excellent odds and auto-success at level 17 if have 18 casting stat at level 1. I was concerned Pathfinder went too far in the unfun direction with this rules change, but now I see it's not unfun at all. There's a small risk you lose the spell, but the key word is "small". Equivalent enough to a warrior rolling a 1 to attack if not statistically equal, but then again, it's only to avoid an attack of opportunity. Me likes.

[Saph]

Navar, your numbers are off. The Pathfinder DC for combat casting is 15+, not 10+. So the DC for a level 1 spell is 17. A first-level character with an 18 casting stat needs a 12. 45% chance of success.

It's possible to get the chance up to 100%, but you have to either spend resources on it or cast spells much lower-level than your maximum. There are also feats opponents can take that increase concentration DCs.

[Person_Man]

As others have illustrated above, keep in mind that anyone can ready a Standard Action against a caster when they begin to cast, thus disrupting their spell. A single Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike or ToB maneuver and most Standard Action spells or breath weapons or vestiges or soulmelds would basically auto-disrupt any caster.

Eliminating Concentration thus gives casters a built in incentive to rely on pre-combat buffs, which is generally not something you want to encourage. It also means that you need to give your BBEG caster more elaborate defenses and/or more mooks - otherwise PCs can all just ready an action to attack the BBEG when he casts and completely lock him down regardless of how powerful his spells might be.

My preferred method for balance is to just ask abusive spell casters to avoid encounter breaking spells (I'm looking at you Polymorph). The basic casting mechanics of 3.5 D&D work fairly well as written.