Fighting with Finesse in D&D

[Morty]

I used to think I'd given up on D&D, but every once in a while I get the desire to give it another chance - especially with Pathfinder doing it a lot of good. However, I keep running into one of my biggest beefs with it - namely, the way fighters work. It's not even that they're underpowered - optimization has never been a big concern of mine and there are numerous fixes and such out there. What I mean is that D&D 3rd edition and Pathfinder kind of force melee combatants into being hulking brutes with enormous strength. Nothing wrong with that, but I prefer mobile fighters who rely on speed and precision... but D&D has precious little support for that without going into specific builds. Those builds tend to use classes other than Fighter, too - rogues and bards, mostly. Futhermore, they tend to rely on rapiers, dagges and the like, while I'd like to see a quick warrior who fights with more traditional swords.
So, a question: what is the best way to play a quick, mobile and precise warrior in D&D and Pathfinder while still preserving a "Fightery" feel, i.e. focusing on combat? I'd rather hear suggestions that don't involve Tome of Battle - I'm not too fond of it - but I won't turn them down entirely.

[zimmerwald1915]

If you're talking Pathfinder, have you looked through the Fighter archetypes? Free-hand Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/free-hand-fighter) and Mobile Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/free-hand-fighter), just at a glance, seem to give Fighters a reason to be something other than a two-handed poleaxer. There are, of course, others.

[Keneth]

As far as Pathfinder goes, a Dex-based fighter with Dervish dance and a scimitar is ok. Combined with feats that use your Dex for maneuvers it can be pretty effective. Sadly, like you said, the system doesn't provide you with many options to make use of other stats besides Strength and the bare minimum in others required for feats.

ToB made great strides toward that goal of course...

[The Underlord]

The scout class seems what you are looking for. If you move you get a bonus to ac and some presicion damage(half the rogue's). With dervish dancer, you can get some pretty good damage.

[Greenish]

Dervish PrC works for a mobile combatant, even if you don't use scimitars. Elven Courtblade is a two-handed sword that can be finessed, so pumping dex and relying on PA for damage is an option. Champion of Corellon Lathian gets you Dex to damage. Hit and Run Tactics ACF trades fighter's heavy armour and shield proficiencies for initiative bonus and Dex to damage vs. flat-footed opponents. Travel Devotion and Pounce allow whirling around the battlefield.

Or you could just use ToB. :smalltongue:

[Morty]

The scout class seems what you are looking for. If you move you get a bonus to ac and some presicion damage(half the rogue's). With dervish dancer, you can get some pretty good damage.

That's an option, but like I mentioned, I'm looking for a mobile fighter-type, while Scout is a wilderness-based skillmonkey, essentially.


Dervish PrC works for a mobile combatant, even if you don't use scimitars. Elven Courtblade is a two-handed sword that can be finessed, so pumping dex and relying on PA for damage is an option. Champion of Corellon Lathian gets you Dex to damage. Hit and Run Tactics ACF trades fighter's heavy armour and shield proficiencies for initiative bonus and Dex to damage vs. flat-footed opponents. Travel Devotion and Pounce allow whirling around the battlefield.

Or you could just use ToB. :smalltongue:

Like I said, while as far as I can tell ToB helps with this issue, I don't like it very much for a variety of reasons so I'd rather not use it.
Other than that, Elven Courtblade is probably my best bet, thanks for reminding me about it. The lack of finesseable weapons was my biggest problem. Having to sink an Exotic Weapon Proficiency into it is a pain, but bearable. Where is the Hit and Run Tactics ACF found in?

[The Underlord]

Scout 3/Urban Ranger X with swift hunter(allows ranger and scout to stack for skirimsih damage) would have a less of a nature feel. Or you could just re-fluff the scout.

[thisisnotspam]

look up some feats and stuff in drow of the underdark

[Greenish]

Other than that, Elven Courtblade is probably my best bet, thanks for reminding me about it. The lack of finesseable weapons was my biggest problem. Having to sink an Exotic Weapon Proficiency into it is a pain, but bearable. Where is the Hit and Run Tactics ACF found in?Drow of the Underdark.

If you're an elf of some description, Imp. Weapon Familiarity from C. Warrior would get you a proficiency in several finessable swords.


Also, would it still feel fighter-y if you didn't have to sink feats into it? :smalltongue:

[Seerow]

Honestly even if you don't like ToB mechanics, it's still worth it to pick up a shadow hand stance and the shadow blade feat if you want a finesse fighter.

[Greenish]

Honestly even if you don't like ToB mechanics, it's still worth it to pick up a shadow hand stance and the shadow blade feat if you want a finesse fighter.The only shadow hand weapon that's not a light weapon is spiked chain, though. It's a good weapon, but it doesn't exactly scream "swordsman". :smallamused:

[Morty]

Drow of the Underdark.

If you're an elf of some description, Imp. Weapon Familiarity from C. Warrior would get you a proficiency in several finessable swords.


Also, would it still feel fighter-y if you didn't have to sink feats into it? :smalltongue:

I see, thanks. The character I have in mind is a human though, so I'll just have to suck up the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. At least I'll be getting more out of it than a 1 point of damage on average. :smalltongue:


Honestly even if you don't like ToB mechanics, it's still worth it to pick up a shadow hand stance and the shadow blade feat if you want a finesse fighter.


The only shadow hand weapon that's not a light weapon is spiked chain, though. It's a good weapon, but it doesn't exactly scream "swordsman". :smallamused:

Yeah, this. I did consider what you're proposing but ran into the "favoured weapons aren't swords" problem.

[Cieyrin]

Scout 3/Urban Ranger X with swift hunter(allows ranger and scout to stack for skirimsih damage) would have a less of a nature feel. Or you could just re-fluff the scout.

Scout 4 gets you a bonus feat, something I wouldn't skip on.

In other ideas, Daring Outlaws (Swashbuckler/Rogues) tend to get off of Str for Dex and Int, though you can use Str if you really want.

On the PF side, Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall can help you apply finesse to your effectiveness. A little Duelist with Free Hand or Mobile Fighter can go a long way, though Lore Warden or Cad can make you more apt at disabling opponents as well.


The only shadow hand weapon that's not a light weapon is spiked chain, though. It's a good weapon, but it doesn't exactly scream "swordsman". :smallamused:

Au contraire, that's where a Sun Sword (EtCR) comes in, as a toned down Sunblade that you can get at a much cheaper cost that keeps the "Wield as a Shortsword, is a Bastard Sword". Shortswords are Shadow Hand weapons, so it works out nicely. It also works well with Iaijutsu Master for being technically a katana.

[Hashmir]

You could check out Realms of Chaos's Fighter fix, which is my personal favorite. It exists, among other things, to let you do pretty much exactly what you are describing. Grab a sword, pick your preferred armor type, and go to town with style.

[Slipperychicken]

X stat to the Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026)

These might help. Also, a Factotums Int-to-Everything really gives the feeling of fighting with brains rather than brawn.

[Greenish]

Au contraire, that's where a Sun Sword (EtCR) comes in, as a toned down Sunblade that you can get at a much cheaper cost that keeps the "Wield as a Shortsword, is a Bastard Sword". Shortswords are Shadow Hand weapons, so it works out nicely. It also works well with Iaijutsu Master for being technically a katana.Sun Sword only says that it can be wielded with short sword proficiency, not that it's wielded as one (except after the bonding ritual). I see nothing saying it could be, say, used as a light offhand, or that it'd qualify for any short sword specific feats.

I see what you said often cited, but as far as I can tell, that's just wishful thinking or confusing sun sword with sun blade.

[Morty]

So, let's see where I'm standing right now:
Fighter (or one of the myriad homebrew versions thereof floating around there) taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade, Weapon Finesse and Power Attack as well as the Hit and Run ACF. Maybe a dip in Barbarian to get Pounce in case of a game above level 6, although I'd explore other ways of getting Pounce as well. If using the Pathfinder version of Fighter - which works fine in a 3.5 game - the Mobile Fighter variant would come in handy. Later on, Travel Devotion to increase mobility. Since Elven Courtblade has a high threat range, some crit-related feats and abilities would perhaps come in handy.

[NikitaDarkstar]

I admit I don't know to much about Pathfinder but in 3.5 as long as you don't mind sticking to light weapons (crunch wise, nothing saying you can't refluff it) you can always go weapon finesse and grab combat expertise and/or reflexes and from there there's plenty of interesting feats you can get, especially from complete scoundrel and adventurer. (One of my favorite is called Hold the Line, grants AOO's when anything charges into your threatened squares.) They also have some short prestige classes focused more around speed and agility but that are still valid for fighters.

But as I said, this is 3.5 stuff, I'm not sure if they have PF equivalents or if they'll translate easily into PF, but no harm in looking.

[FMArthur]

Well, with Strongarm Bracers (6000gp, MIC p139) you can wield upscaled light weapons which are the size of one-handed weapons and still treat them as light weapons. This is a pretty silly use of the item compared to the norm, so maybe you could try to get just this functionality out of it at a discount.

[Morty]

I admit I don't know to much about Pathfinder but in 3.5 as long as you don't mind sticking to light weapons (crunch wise, nothing saying you can't refluff it) you can always go weapon finesse and grab combat expertise and/or reflexes and from there there's plenty of interesting feats you can get, especially from complete scoundrel and adventurer. (One of my favorite is called Hold the Line, grants AOO's when anything charges into your threatened squares.) They also have some short prestige classes focused more around speed and agility but that are still valid for fighters.

But as I said, this is 3.5 stuff, I'm not sure if they have PF equivalents or if they'll translate easily into PF, but no harm in looking.

There's a limit to refluffing, sadly, and one of the things you can't really do is describe a rapier as a slashing, two-handed sword.


Well, with Strongarm Bracers (6000gp, MIC p139) you can wield upscaled light weapons which are the size of one-handed weapons and still treat them as light weapons. This is a pretty silly use of the item compared to the norm, so maybe you could try to get just this functionality out of it at a discount.

Sadly, I don't have access to MiC. Now that I think about it, I really should have listed available sources in the OP... it's been a while since I asked for advice here.

[FMArthur]

Well, half-giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) (expanded psionics handbook) and goliaths (Races of Stone) are races that do the same thing as those bracers, but that's obviously not what you want your character to be.

The Monkey Grip feat in Complete Warrior can let you do it at a -2 penalty. A Large shortsword probably looks just like an unusual Medium longsword fluff-wise. Maybe cartoonishly proportioned, it's hard to say.

[JKTrickster]

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but this also has been bothering me for a while.

Do you think it is an unreasonable houserule for ALL melee weapons to use either Str or Dex to attack, depending on which one was higher? Str would be weapon damage and Weapon Finesse could key Dex to Damage?

Or would that be broken in some way?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Or would that be broken in some way?
Nobody would ever play a str-based character again.
While Strength is multiplied x 1,5 with two handed weapons, dex affects so many things (ac, save, initiative...) so is basically a better ability
Also, Power attack only requires 13 str and is a perfectly viable choice for a finesse character (with the right weapons, as spiked chain or rapier) so it does not make dex a weaker choice.
Even the barbarian rage can be used to provide Dex instead of Str (there are 2 ways to do that, through afc or feat) and even some combat maneuvers can be done with dex (via setting sun).

Dex to hit & damage must be earned somehow. making it free basically will render strength useless.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Nobody would ever play a str-based character again.
While Strength is multiplied x 1,5 with two handed weapons, dex affects so many things (ac, save, initiative...) so is basically a better ability
Also, Power attack only requires 13 str and is a perfectly viable choice for a finesse character (with the right weapons, as spiked chain or rapier) so it does not make dex a weaker choice.
Even the barbarian rage can be used to provide Dex instead of Str (there are 2 ways to do that, through afc or feat) and even some combat maneuvers can be done with dex (via setting sun).

Dex to hit & damage must be earned somehow. making it free basically will render strength useless.

Rapier can't be used two-handed.

[Eldest]

Rapier can't be used two-handed.

...which doesn't mean it can't be power attacked with. Just that the power attack will be less powerful.

[Morty]

Yeah, simply letting all weapons be finesseable without a feat would render Strength... maybe not useless, but much less useful than Dexterity. nWoD has this problem - melee attacks use Strength, but it's very cheap to switch them to Dexterity, at which point you can mostly disregard Strength, while a Strength-using character will still need Dexterity for defense and other such things.

[Niren]

Do you have access to Oriental Adventurer ? Dragon 318 converts it to 3.5 and there are alot of options there including a bastard sword (Katana) that you can WF with. Fighter/Samurai/Iaijutsu Master/Swashbuckler. gives you the feats, extra AC, d10 sword to finesse and if you use it 2handed you dont need the exotic feat to use it.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, simply letting all weapons be finesseable without a feat would render Strength... maybe not useless, but much less useful than Dexterity. nWoD has this problem - melee attacks use Strength, but it's very cheap to switch them to Dexterity, at which point you can mostly disregard Strength, while a Strength-using character will still need Dexterity for defense and other such things.

It would make Strength no longer necessary for characters who weren't dependent upon it for their damage until power attack became a worthwhile damage source, yes.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, however, as most of those characters are going to be wearing armor that's too heavy for a very high dex to benefit them.

I'd have to consider it more fully to say one way or the other with certainty as to what it is here...

[NikitaDarkstar]

There's a limit to refluffing, sadly, and one of the things you can't really do is describe a rapier as a slashing, two-handed sword.

Of course you can. You have a two-handed sword that just happens to have the same stats as a rapier. I mean really, just take a look at the wide variety of weapons available that looks completely different but still has the same stats. Please tell me why you wouldn't be able to have a two-handed sword that deals 1d8 dmg, has an 18-20/x2 crit range and happens to be light enough where dexterity is more important than raw strength? (Besides, not even two-handed swords were in reality THAT heavy.. so yhea.)

Yes there's a limit to refluffing, but weapons is definitely one of the easier things to refluff, now if you want to play a barbarian but fluff it as a wizard... yhea that's pushing it... :p

[Psyren]

Binder is great at this. Knight of the Sacred Seal gets you full binding progression and 16 BAB, while Paimon will make you a very mobile fighter and The Triad gives you all exotic weapons for free if you don't want to spend the feat. You can later get pounce from Chupoclops plus a natural attack, and Andromalius gets you sneak attack too.

[HunterOfJello]

Swift Hunter and Daring Outlaws are great for this.


Swift Hunter is a feat + build that works with multiclassed Ranger/Scouts.

Daring Outlaw is a feat + build that works with multiclassed Rogue/Swashbucklers.

~~~~~~~

Even if you don't like ToB, dips into it can be quite prudent. The Diamond Mind discipline is all about finesse and the Shadow Hand tree has some excellent precision strike moves, not to mentions awesome stances for complimenting other fighting styles.



Yeah, simply letting all weapons be finesseable without a feat would render Strength... maybe not useless, but much less useful than Dexterity. nWoD has this problem - melee attacks use Strength, but it's very cheap to switch them to Dexterity, at which point you can mostly disregard Strength, while a Strength-using character will still need Dexterity for defense and other such things.

All animals get weapon finesse for free.

Once a feat is recognized as being constantly taken regardless of build, it must be questioned as to whether or not it is a feat tax.

Is weapon finesse a feat tax to dex based melee characters? I'm not sure. I think that should be up to each DM based on their own campaigns.

Are there other feats that are feat taxes on certain characters? Definitely. Adaptive Style is definitely a feat tax on Swordsages.

[Tvtyrant]

If you can convince your DM to make a feat that allows Dervish progress Skirmish and you can simply go Scout/Dervish. The Dervish abilities would activate your skirmish, and you can flow across the battlefield as a king of precision damage. It won't be ToB per say, but it lets you do the full attack shtick pretty well.

[TuggyNE]

All animals get weapon finesse for free.

They do? Natural weapons are always light, yes, and thus finessable, but a quick survey of Animal types shows a fair number without weapon finesse at all, never mind as a bonus feat -- including at least some with more dex than str.

[HunterOfJello]

They do? Natural weapons are always light, yes, and thus finessable, but a quick survey of Animal types shows a fair number without weapon finesse at all, never mind as a bonus feat -- including at least some with more dex than str.


Hmm. Now that I look at them, I was wrong.

I was sure that there was some sort of monster that got weapon finesse for free. I'm not sure what it was though.

[NNescio]

Hmm. Now that I look at them, I was wrong.

I was sure that there was some sort of monster that got weapon finesse for free. I'm not sure what it was though.

Commoner's Banes Cats count as monsters, right?

[Frog Dragon]

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but this also has been bothering me for a while.

Do you think it is an unreasonable houserule for ALL melee weapons to use either Str or Dex to attack, depending on which one was higher? Str would be weapon damage and Weapon Finesse could key Dex to Damage?

Or would that be broken in some way?
I actually have this exact houserule.

It does make dex-fighters a lot more powerful, but dex fighting does still have its downsides (though I did rule that you only get half-dex to damage in the offhand, and no 1.5 dex while two-handing). And it's still paying a feat to get damage str-users get for free. Often, it just is more prudent to go str even with this setup. And heavy-armor folks still don't care about dex.

I certainly don't see how it's making str useless, because honestly, it isn't.

[Seharvepernfan]

Scout 3/Urban Ranger X with swift hunter(allows ranger and scout to stack for skirimsih damage) would have a less of a nature feel. Or you could just re-fluff the scout.

I was going to say this.

I homebrewed a fighter variant you might be interested in. Bravo:
-d8
-4 skill points per level and adds balance & tumble to the list
-gainst guerilla warrior and guerilla scout from Heroes of Battle
-loses heavy armor & tower shield proficiency

[TuggyNE]

Hmm. Now that I look at them, I was wrong.

I was sure that there was some sort of monster that got weapon finesse for free. I'm not sure what it was though.

Yeah, a number of monsters get it for free (including at least one playable race), but I don't really know of any general rule for it, other than "well, it makes sense that they can attack with precision" or whatever. (Housecats yes, wolves no; monkey yes, tiger no. Who knows?)

[Cieyrin]

Of course you can. You have a two-handed sword that just happens to have the same stats as a rapier. I mean really, just take a look at the wide variety of weapons available that looks completely different but still has the same stats. Please tell me why you wouldn't be able to have a two-handed sword that deals 1d8 dmg, has an 18-20/x2 crit range and happens to be light enough where dexterity is more important than raw strength? (Besides, not even two-handed swords were in reality THAT heavy.. so yhea.)

Yes there's a limit to refluffing, but weapons is definitely one of the easier things to refluff, now if you want to play a barbarian but fluff it as a wizard... yhea that's pushing it... :p

That's an Elven Thinblade that you happen to be two-handing, though if you're picking up Improved Weapon Familiarity, I see no reason not to just go Courtblade.


If you can convince your DM to make a feat that allows Dervish progress Skirmish and you can simply go Scout/Dervish. The Dervish abilities would activate your skirmish, and you can flow across the battlefield as a king of precision damage. It won't be ToB per say, but it lets you do the full attack shtick pretty well.

I don't think it's strictly necessary, between Improved Skirmish and Gloves of Agile Striking, honestly. Though, I think you'd be hard pressed to get into Dervish with just Scout, due to the heavy feat requirements.

[Polarity Shift]

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but this also has been bothering me for a while.

Do you think it is an unreasonable houserule for ALL melee weapons to use either Str or Dex to attack, depending on which one was higher? Str would be weapon damage and Weapon Finesse could key Dex to Damage?

Or would that be broken in some way?

That would be... rather weak.

If you made it so that all finessable weapons could use your Dex instead of Str for to hit and damage without wasting a feat that'd be better. Those weapons are still inferior to Str based weapons, and you still only get x1 instead of x1.5 but it would at least make it worth considering, particularly given that it is much easier to boost Str than it is to boost Dex.

That is a houserule of course and by RAW the only thing you will do damage to with a Dex build is yourself.

[NeoSeraphi]

I know you wanted to play a human, Morty, but honestly, an elf would be much better at this. Besides the obvious Dex bonus and the ability to pick up all the finessable Elven blades with one feat, there is a special prestige class in Races of the Wild called the Champion of Corellon Larethian.

You get Dex to damage, in addition to Strength, with a few good weapons, including all elven blades.

You get an increased maximum Dexterity modifier to AC while in medium or heavy armor.

You get unimpeded movement in medium or heavy armor, allowing you to enjoy 30' movement and mobility, as well as a decent Dexterity bonus, while also enjoying the protection that stronger armor gives you.

All of this together sounds like it would be the perfect mobile fighter build. I strongly suggest that you play this class before you dismiss fighters in 3.5 as "strength-based" characters.

The class also gives you Lay on Hands, 4 fighter bonus feats, and a limited truebane ability, over the course of 10 levels. Entry level is 8.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yes there's a limit to refluffing, but weapons is definitely one of the easier things to refluff, now if you want to play a barbarian but fluff it as a wizard... yhea that's pushing it... :p

Krog very powerful wizard! Krog not even have limit on spells cast per day! And Krog can use his spells in places where normal magic doesn't work!

Now where's that old thread..?

[Morty]

Like I said, I'd rather stick to Fighter or another full BaB class, so no Scout. Dervish PrC is an option, though.
As for refluffing - strangely enough, this sort of thing rarely flies in actual game. On the whole, I'd rather stick to actual rules than homebrew or refluffing, if possible.


I know you wanted to play a human, Morty, but honestly, an elf would be much better at this. Besides the obvious Dex bonus and the ability to pick up all the finessable Elven blades with one feat, there is a special prestige class in Races of the Wild called the Champion of Corellon Larethian.

You get Dex to damage, in addition to Strength, with a few good weapons, including all elven blades.

You get an increased maximum Dexterity modifier to AC while in medium or heavy armor.

You get unimpeded movement in medium or heavy armor, allowing you to enjoy 30' movement and mobility, as well as a decent Dexterity bonus, while also enjoying the protection that stronger armor gives you.

All of this together sounds like it would be the perfect mobile fighter build. I strongly suggest that you play this class before you dismiss fighters in 3.5 as "strength-based" characters.

The class also gives you Lay on Hands, 4 fighter bonus feats, and a limited truebane ability, over the course of 10 levels. Entry level is 8.

Sorry, the character in question stays a human. His concept and backstory just don't work for an elf.

[NeoSeraphi]

Sorry, the character in question stays a human. His concept and backstory just don't work for an elf.

Fair enough. But I hope the next time you want to play a mobile fighter, you remember my advice, because it will basically let you move at full speed in mithral full plate with a +6 Dex bonus to your AC, swinging an elven courtblade around like it's nothing.