Increasing Steely Resolve

[Koury]

I'm considering allowing Steely Resolve (Crusader's Damage Pool ability) to scale a bit more. Would changing the maximum level of damage the pool could hold to [Crusader Level x 3] (minimum 5) have any sort of odd unexpected consequence?

I would extend the Furious Resolve chart as well to account for the higher maximum (at the same rate it goes at now, +1 per 5 damage in the pool).

Basically, I see it working pretty much the same as it does now except he can get more use out of Furious Counterstrike. The most I can see happening is say he takes 40 damage at level 10 after being attacked by multiple enemies. He takes 10 to the face and the other 30 into the pool. He Stone Powers for 5, still managing a net gain of +1 AB so he hits and gets a little extra damage (only three more points then usual). Turn ends, pool drains, 10 Temp HP soften the blow but he still took 20 damage (compared to 30 in the same scenario under current rules).

I see that he can negate damage better (mostly through being able to use Stone Power more freely) and can potentially squeeze an extra round or two of living compared to usual rules out of this, but is it too much? Is there something else I'm not seeing? My main goal in increasing the cap is both to make Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike a little more useful as you level instead of having it bump up so slowly and to make the potential number matter a little more, as I feel they are too low currently (+3 at level 10? Not bad, but meh overall. +6? Much more relevant, I feel).

[Person_Man]

Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike is meant to be used in conjunction with the Stone Power feat, Divine Spirit healing maneuvers/stances, and Stone Dragon DR granting maneuvers/stances. When used in the way it was intended, it basically makes the Crusader the best Tier 3 tank in the game. (Though I would argue that the Incarnate can give him a run for his money).

So I'm not sure what raising it even higher would accomplish.

Are Crusaders too weak for your gaming group? Do higher numbers make the game more fun for you? Or does the number just "feel" low to you?

[Godskook]

Personally, I think Steely Resolve works fine the way it is, but I will admit, what you're proposing doesn't sound that bad, especially the part about smoothing out the pool's scaling(3 per level instead of 5 at semi-regular intervals).

[Koury]

So I'm not sure what raising it even higher would accomplish.

Are Crusaders too weak for your gaming group? Do higher numbers make the game more fun for you? Or does the number just "feel" low to you? My current group is level 3 and the Crusader is tanking fine, though he is in need of healing post fights relatively often (though not always). Part of it is that it just "feels" low, probably, and another part is the scaling bugs me (I'd much prefer per level scaling). As for what I'm trying to accomplish, I stated that in my first post, right at the end (though whether or not this increase WOULD accomplish those goals I do not know and value your opinion on).


Personally, I think Steely Resolve works fine the way it is, but I will admit, what you're proposing doesn't sound that bad, especially the part about smoothing out the pool's scaling(3 per level instead of 5 at semi-regular intervals).

I could change it to [Crusader Level x2], resulting in the same thing as above (scaled increases and benefits coming online in a sightly more timely manner).

[Godskook]

The thing to keep in mind about smoothing out the scaling is that the first few levels are going to be nerfed unless you adjust for that.

[Koury]

Sorry I didn't specify, but the [Crusader Level x 2] would keep the (minimum 5) clause from the first post.

I kinda just feel that Furious Counterstrike comes online too slow to be worthwhile. I'd like to speed it up a bit, and if through that process it ends up better endgame, well, OK.The Crusader getting an extra +2 (or +6) on his damage and to-hit rolls at level 20 seems, well, like not a big deal. I'd even go so far as to call it a small deal.

I'd like to hear if I'm wrong, however.

[Seerow]

To-hit bonuses are always nice. I'd recommend not scaling those much more.

But even something like a 1 point of damage per 1 or 2 points of damage in the delayed pool would work well, I think.

[Godskook]

See, here's the thing, +5 to-hit and damage is worth about a feat slot, as evidenced by Knowledge Devotion. Adding the ability to delay 30+ damage for long enough to be able to heal yourself is worth significantly more than a feat slot on its own, possibly 2 or 3.

[Koury]

See, here's the thing, +5 to-hit and damage is worth about a feat slot, as evidenced by Knowledge Devotion. Adding the ability to delay 30+ damage for long enough to be able to heal yourself is worth significantly more than a feat slot on its own, possibly 2 or 3.

Like, say, spending 20 levels on? I mean, aside from Mettle, which is good, and a smite, this is supposed to be the reason to be a Crusader (plus, obviously, maneuvers).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Like, say, spending 20 levels on? I mean, aside from Mettle, which is good, and a smite, this is supposed to be the reason to be a Crusader (plus, obviously, maneuvers).

Did you take out the crusader's maneuvers and stances? Because everything else is just icing on the cake.

[kulosle]

I once did a rework of this mechanic. It showed mild success and about half the party like how it worked. One of them still prefers to use it. Steely resolve delayed half of all damage you take and furious strike worked normally. It balances itself kind of well. It makes it so that any one can still damage you even if they just do less then 5 damage. but that you were still benefited from being attacked multiple times. It scales well without trying to number crunch.

[Godskook]

Crusader is more of a 14 level class or so. The last 6 levels aren't as viable, and buffing steely resolve is probably not going to help that. For the first 14 levels, the point of taking them is to get 9th level maneuvers on a Crusader's readying chassis.

To be worth spending 20 levels on, I think the class needs, at minimum, the ability to learn stances at more appropriate levels.

[Koury]

Crusader is more of a 14 level class or so. The last 6 levels aren't as viable, and buffing steely resolve is probably not going to help that. For the first 14 levels, the point of taking them is to get 9th level maneuvers on a Crusader's readying chassis.

To be worth spending 20 levels on, I think the class needs, at minimum, the ability to learn stances at more appropriate levels.

I changed the stance progression to 3rd, 9th, 15th already, so that should work much better for my player. I do wish the class had a capstone though. However, I'll worry more about that as we increase in levels. Some sort of Improved Mettle or something?


Did you take out the crusader's maneuvers and stances? Because everything else is just icing on the cake.

No, they still have maneuvers. My problem is that this is essentially their only class feature aside from the maneuvers (and Mettle), and its only useful to a point. 15 damage isnt that much at level 10. Trolls are CR 5 and manage to average more then that (albeit on a full attack). Heaven forbid you need to tank more then the average damage from a single monster of -5 CR.

It just seems low to me (though it has been fine so far, as we are level 3). I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong and its fine, but I'd like the Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike to maybe be more then a counter to burning AB on Stone Power. To be more then, to use your words, just icing on the cake.

[candycorn]

It's not supposed to soak all the damage. It's supposed to soak enough.

For example, let's take a moderate AC Crusader, at level 10. He's got a Steely Resolve of 15, and takes a hit from a Frost Giant, for 23 damage. (Note: Crusader is level 10, with around 90 hp, likely.)

15 goes to his Steely Resolve pool, and 8 is taken immediately (Crusader is at 82 hp). Crusader gets +3 to hit and damage. On his turn, he uses Stone Power for 4, gaining 8 temporary HP, and makes a crusader strike, hitting and dealing damage. He also heals an average of 8 (now he's at 90 HP, temp HP 8, SRPool 15). Turn ends, he takes 15 damage (now at 83 HP).

In this case, the Crusader turned a 23 damage hit to 7 damage, while attacking. And that's basic. Adding in DR sources (it's easy to get DR 5), and that would be down to 2 damage. If he'd had that, and then stone powered for 5 (or used the martial spirit stance), that hit would go to 0.

So, yeah, as long as he can keep a relevant AC, a token amount of DR, and decent maneuvers/stances, he's solid. For example, what if that crusader was an Azurin, with the Shape Soulmeld:Therapeutic mantle feat, and 1 essentia in it? Crusader Strike goes to 1d6+8, Martial Spirit heals an additional 4 HP on top of that (average healing: 15-16), and that's level ONE maneuvers.

With Revitalizing Strike, the Crusader would heal an average of 20-21. With Therapeutic Mantle, that goes up by 5, to 25-26, and with martial spirit, add another 4, to 29-30 hp worth of healing.

It's not that Steely Resolve handles everything... It's that it is one layer that, when combined with other things, gives you rock solid defensive depth.

[Koury]

The problem is, for me, that in your example, a Frost Giant can and usually will have a buddy and that if the Crusader is doing his job right will be attacked by both. Soaking 15 of 23? Acceptable. Good even. 15 of 46? Less so.

I know that in one on ones the soak is pretty much good. Its just that the party doesn't often run into just one guy. Add in some slight tweaks to the monsters (maybe the Frost Giant is a boss type guy (or the Thog to the boss type guys Nale) who picked up Shock Trooper and a Martial Study?) and Steely Resolve can get real low real fast. Or lets drop the CR and take a monster straight from the book. Dire Tiger. 37 average damage before we include any Rake attacks (which they are likely to get more than once). Add in the fact there should be two and that soak is seeming inadequate to me.

I agree that it shouldn't soak all the damage, but I'd like if it was more useful in situations where you're not tanking just one guy. What I'm unsure of is if raising Steely Resolve is necessarily needed. Maybe my perception is off, and I am open to that, but it really seems to come up short to me.

[candycorn]

The problem is, for me, that in your example, a Frost Giant can and usually will have a buddy and that if the Crusader is doing his job right will be attacked by both. Soaking 15 of 23? Acceptable. Good even. 15 of 46? Less so.


I compared an ECL 10 character versus a CR 11, which is a reasonably tough encounter in its own right. Two frost giants would be CR 13, which is effectively a boss fight for the Crusader I used. If the ability is to be powered to enable the class to not sweat a CR +3 encounter, I'd say we're setting the benchmark a bit high.

That said, even vs two, the ideal is that the crusader soaks one, while solid fog gets the other out of the fight, until the first is down.

[Koury]

Frost Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#frostGiant) is CR 9. I was looking at ECL 11 also. :smallsmile:

[candycorn]

Oops! Point still stands, though. You've got a whole party. At CR +1, you should either have additional healing support, or debuff support from a party.

For example:

Crusader moves to engage both.
Wizard uses Ray of Enfeeblement on one, lowering its strength by 8 (-4 to hit and damage)
Cleric uses Doom on the same one, rendering it Shaken, for another -2 to hit and damage.

Giant 1 attacks, hitting crusader for 23 damage.
Giant 2, having a major hit debuff, misses. (+12 instead of +18 is pretty significant)

Crusader strikes Giant 2, using Stone Power to cover most of the damage in his pool, Martial Spirit Stance to heal most of the rest, and a White Raven strike that removes the Giant's ability to make AoO's for 1 turn.

Wizard uses Slow on Giant 1.
Cleric moves in to assist with the flank.
Rogue enters melee, flanking, from hiding.

Yes, the battle will be long, but at this point, the battle is pretty much decided.

You don't consider the ability in a vacuum. A crusader is designed to function with party support. In the above example, with a team working together, Steely Resolve is plenty good. Also, the resources used was a couple level 1 spells, and a level 3 spell, far below what a level 10 party has.

Crusader is one of the strongest endurance themed martial classes in the game, if not the strongest. It doesn't need the augment.