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View Full Version : You see a +1 longsword, I see Anklets of Translocation -The Reforger [3.5 Base Class]



Circle of Life
2012-01-26, 06:44 PM
The Reforger

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ftl/ftl22_trans.jpg
"Wasted potential surrounds us. Lend me that bauble, and I shall see what it can be made to be."

Class Skills
The Reforger's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken separately) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha)
Skills Points at Each Level: 6 + Int

Hit Dice: d8
Starting Gold: 6d4x10
Alignment: Any.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Craft Reserve

1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Aberrant Flesh, Morphic Form (Natural weapon, 1d6)|-

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Item Creation|40

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Refocus Arcana|60

4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Morphic Form (Natural weapon, 2d6)|80

5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Morphic Form (Body Adjustment)|100

6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Reforge Item|150

7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|Morphic Form (Natural weapon, 3d6)|200

8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|Warping Strike (-1 / -1d6)|250

9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|Mirrored Mutations|300

10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|Morphic Form (Natural weapons, 4d6)|400

11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+7|Instant Forging|500

12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|Reforge Self|700

13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|Morphic Form (Natural weapons, 5d6)|900

14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9|Warping Strike (-2 / -2d6)|1,200

15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+9| Reforge Weakness |1,500

16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Morphic Form (Natural weapons, 6d6)|2,000

17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10| Reforge Foe |2,500

18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|Warping Strike (-3 / -3d6)|3,000

19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|Morphic Form (Natural weapons, 7d6)|4,000

20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|Infinite Evolution|5,000
[/table]

Class Features: The following are all class features of the Reforger.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Reforgers are proficient with all simple weapons and with one martial or exotic weapon of their choice. Reforgers are proficient with light and medium armor and with bucklers, but not with other shields.

Abberant Flesh (Ex): Whether by dint of ancient bloodlines or the result of magical experiments, all Reforgers possess mutable flesh capable of warping and shifting in response to their need. Reforgers possess the Augmented Aberration subtype, though this does not change the features or traits of their normal type. In addition, a Reforger gains a +1 class bonus to her natural armor.

Morphic Form (Ex): As a standard action, a Reforger can reshape a portion of her body to grant herself a single natural attack that she does not already possess. This natural attack deals 1d6 damage at 1st level, and an additional 1d6 damage at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter. The natural attack granted by this ability is always the primary natural weapon of the Reforger, and so adds her full Strength modifier to damage (or 1 ½ her Strength if it is her sole natural attack). The Reforger can retract a natural weapon created in this way (and recreate a new one, if desired) with a standard action. The Reforger may only ever grant herself a single natural weapon with this ability; creating a new one requires her to first retract the original.

At 5th level, a Reforger gains the ability to shift a single bodily defense afforded to her, whether a natural defense or one granted by a magic item or spell. As a standard action, the Reforger may change a source of damage reduction or energy resistance (or immunity) to a new type. Damage reduction can only be changed between like sources (weapon types or substance types), while energy resistances or immunities can be changed freely between acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. For example, a Reforger could change DR/slashing to DR/piercing or DR/bludgeoning, but not DR/adamantine, and she could change DR/silver to DR/cold iron or DR/adamantine, but not DR/slashing. This change persists for as long as the granted defense would normally last, until its source has been removed, or until the Reforger returns the defense to its original type as a free action.

A Reforger may only shift a single defense with this ability at one time. To shift another, she must first return the altered defense to its original state.

Craft Reserve: Beginning at 2nd level, a Reforger receives a pool of points that she can spend instead of experience points when crafting items. Each time the Reforger gains a new level, she receives a new craft reserve; leftover points from the previous level do not carry over. If the points are not spent, they are lost. A Reforger can also use her craft reserve to supplement the experience cost of the item she is making, taking a portion of the cost from her craft reserve and a portion from her own XP.

Item Creation (Su): A Reforger of 2nd level or higher can create a magic item even if she does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The Reforger must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item. Thus, to make a 1st-level wand of magic missile, a Reforger would need a Use Magic Device check of 21 or higher. To create a bottle of air (caster level 7th), she would need a check result of 27 or higher to emulate the water breathing prerequisite.

The Reforger must make a successful check for each prerequisite for each item she makes. If she fails a check, she can try again each day until the item is complete (see Creating Magic Items, page 282 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). If she comes to the end of a crafting time and she has still not successfully emulated one of the powers, she can make one final check – her last-ditch effort, even if she has already made a check that day. If that check also fails, then the creation process fails and the time, money, and XP expended to craft the item are lost.

For the purpose of meeting item prerequisites, a Reforger's effective caster level equals her Reforger level +2. If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses the Reforger's actual level as its caster level. Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the Reforger's actual level (if it is higher). Thus, a 3rd-level Reforger can make a scroll of fireball, since the minimum caster level for fireball is 5th. She pays the normal cost for making such a scroll with a caster level of 5th, however, even though the scroll's actual caster level is 3rd.

A Reforger can also make Use Magic Device checks to emulate nonspell requirements, including alignment and race, using the normal Dcs for the skill.

Finally, a Reforger can choose a single item creation feat at the beginning of each day, provided she would be able to select the feat with her effective caster level for item creation. The Reforger may ignore any other prerequisites of the item creation feat, and may make use of it normally.

Refocus Arcana (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, whenever she attempts a Use Magic Device check to activate (but not craft) a magic item, but fails to meet the DC of the task, a Reforger may reroll the check as an immediate action. She must abide by the results of this second die roll, even if it is worse than the original.

Reforge Item (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, a Reforger can transmute one item into another, seemingly unrelated item. This process takes one hour, at the end of which the Reforger makes a Use Magic Device check as if she were creating the desired item using her Item Creation class feature, except that she does not need to possess the appropriate item creation feat and she is afforded only a single check to make the item. Failure does not spoil the reforging process, though the Reforger must start anew if she fails the check. The item to be created in this fashion must have a cost of equal or lesser value than the item to be transmuted, but does not otherwise need to be related; a +3 Longsword could be reforged into +4 full-plate, or Cloak of Charisma +4, or any other item with a cost of 18,315 gp or less. Once transmuted, the reforged item is forevermore treated as the new item, and cannot be returned to its original form by any means short of a wish spell or deific intervention.

To reforge an item, the Reforger must be capable of creating the desired new item with her Item Creation ability, and as such cannot create items that require a caster level higher than the virtual caster level afforded to her by that ability, nor can she emulate item creation feats that she would not be able to select normally. Once an item has been reforged, the Reforger may not reforge it again until she gains another rank in Use Magic Device.

Warping Strike (Su): Beginning at 8th level, a Reforger's attacks can disrupt her foes' very forms, warping mind and body into a disharmonious wreck. The first successful attack that the Reforger makes against each foe each round forces a Will save, DC 10 + ½ Reforger level + Cha modifier. If a foe fails a save, it takes a -1 penalty to all rolls made until the start of the Reforgers next turn, and takes a 1d6 penalty to one ability score of the Reforger's choice for the same time. This penalty can never reduce a foe's ability score below 1.

At 14th level, and again at 18th level, the penalty to rolls increases by 1, and the penalty to ability scores increases by 1d6.

Mirrored Mutations (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, a Reforger's mutable body can produce a second, identical mutation with no additional effort. Whenever she creates a natural weapon, the Reforger also creates a second, identical natural weapon, and may use both as primary natural weapons. Whenever she shifts a defense, she may split it into two valid choices, though she cannot shift these choices once made. For example, a Reforger with DR/slashing could shift the damage reduction to DR/bludgeoning and piercing, and she could shift immunity to fire damage to both immunity to acid and immunity to sonic damage, or any other legal combination as outlined in the Morphic Body ability.

Instant Forging (Ex): Once per week, a Reforger of 11th level or higher may create a magical item, as by her Item Creation ability, except that she may create the item with only a swift action. The Reforger is allowed only a single Use Magic Device check for each prerequisite she attempts to emulate, and if she fails any of them, the item creation process is failed. If she succeeds, the magical item comes into being fully formed and attuned to the Reforger, as appropriate. Armor manifests worn, weapons phase into being in the Reforger's hands (or at her feet, if her hands are full), rings appear around fingers, and so on.

Reforge Self (Ex): As a standard action, a Reforger of 12th level or higher may reallocate her ability scores freely. The Reforger may change her base ability scores as she wishes, though she must reallocate physical scores to other physical scores, and likewise for mental scores. Only the base scores change when using this ability; any bonuses to ability scores from items, spells, or similar effects continue to affect the specified score.

Using this ability only shifts the basic scores of the Reforger; it does not allow her to reallocate points as if using a point buy system or similar. For example, a Reforger with a base Strength score of 18 and a base Dexterity score of 13 could switch the two, resulting in a base Strength of 13 before adjustments and a base Dexterity of 18 before adjustments. Ability scores changed in this fashion persist for one hour or until returned to normal as a free action. Ability scores altered in this ability never serve as prerequisites, nor are their effects counted upon leveling up (as such, a Reforger would not benefit from increasing her Intelligence score before leveling, nor could she qualify for feats that require a high ability score without naturally possessing that score).

Additionally, when using this ability, the Reforger's body is purged of any poison or disease effects, even if she chooses not to change her ability scores.

Reforge Weakness (Su): As a standard action, a Reforger of 15th level or higher may make a touch attack against a foe that possesses one of the following that she does not have: damage reduction, energy resistance, energy immunity, immunity to a condition, immunity to ability damage or drain, or spell resistance. If the touch attack is successful, the touched foe must succeed on a Will save, DC 10 + ½ Reforger level + Cha modifier. If it fails the save, the touched creature loses one specific defense from the above choices, and the Reforger gains that defense. The stolen defense persists for one hour or until the foe from which the defense was stolen dies, at which point the Reforger loses that defense.

Reforge Foe (Su): As a standard action, a Reforger of 17th level or higher may transmute a touched foe into a helpless puddle of base elements. This ability functions like the baleful polymorph spell, except that the duration is 24 hours, the only form is a puddle of base elements which cannot speak or hear or move, and the save DC is equal to 10 + ½ Reforger level + Cha modifier. Over the duration of this ability, the transmuted foe's body slowly reforms; after the first 12 hours, it is capable of crawling at a rate of 5 feet per round, and after 18 hours it can manage basic speech, though it retains a mostly shapeless form with only the most basic appendages for movement until the end of the full duration.

Once a creature is affected by this ability, whether it saves successfully or not, it is immune to this ability for 24 hours.

Infinite Evolution (Ex): At 20th level, a Reforger can change her form on the basest levels as a free action once per round. The Reforger can change her type freely, though any subtypes she possessed remain. The Reforger cannot change her type to Undead unless she already possessed this type, and likewise unless she already counted as a Construct independent of this ability, must apply the Living Construct subtype if she changes her type to Construct. Otherwise, she gains all of the Traits of her chosen type for as long as she maintains it, save for traits that would alter her ability scores. A Reforger assuming a type via this ability is treated in all regards as if she naturally possessed that type.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-26, 07:21 PM
This class is awesome, I love it. It seems really powerful, though. I mean, reassigning your ability scores at will? I guess I've seen worse though (heck, I've made worse).

With Morphic Form, he can change the defense granted from any source, even items and spells?

Question about Warping Strike: so at 14th level I can do 2d6 stat damage. Does that have to be done to one stat, or can I deal 1d6 to Con and 1d6 to Str?

This is sweet. I want to roll one of these up on a Warforged. :smallbiggrin:

Circle of Life
2012-01-26, 07:29 PM
This class is awesome, I love it. It seems really powerful, though. I mean, reassigning your ability scores at will? I guess I've seen worse though (heck, I've made worse).

Well, it's not exactly giving you anything, just shifting around what you already have. Need more AC? Strength to Dex. Need more hitpoints? Strength to Con. Need better listen modifier? Cha to Wis. That sort of thing.


With Morphic Form, he can change the defense granted from any source, even items and spells?

Yes. You can have an item that grants fire resistance, and change it to acid resistance or whatever.


Question about Warping Strike: so at 14th level I can do 2d6 stat damage. Does that have to be done to one stat, or can I deal 1d6 to Con and 1d6 to Str?

It's a single stat choice.

Amechra
2012-01-26, 07:58 PM
Mistaken post; see below.

Reluctance
2012-01-26, 07:59 PM
Reforge Self and Refocus Arcana seem really powerful. The first just by itself, with the ability to pool all one's points into one area of expertise. (I see Int shifting being very popular right before leveling, to go along with the already unnecessarily high skill points/level.) The second, in conjunction with all the Artificerish abilities, means doubling every roll you make. This quickly makes failure vanishingly remote.

Scaling Save-or-X with no daily limit worries me. Even casters can't slam enemies with full-save attacks round after round. Especially when it comes down to Save-or-Suck combined with powerful natural attacks; Cha-shift your character most of the time (Force of Personality removes the one real drawback this would have had), target the enemy's strongest stats, and watch them take a huge power hit.

Reforge Item, while the theory of losing whatever WBL difference between the old and new forms, runs into a hiccup when you remember how many items follow the same flat formula. The only time this cost will be "balanced" is when someone wants to turn a magic dagger into a magic longsword and has to lose an enchantment to cover a shortfall of twelve gold. That's an annoyance, and an asymmetric one at that. Otherwise, I see it being popular to let everybody have just the right enchants without any real loss of wealth. Not to mention the things doable with scrolls. And, depending on one's reading, wands.

Finally, the featureless chassis. d8 HP, medium BAB, two good saves, and six skill points per level. This sounds like you're handing out candy because none of these matter in a world of "a wizard did it". That's fine if all games are high op games. Anything shy of that, the power floor is too high for me to be comfortable with these bennies just because.

Amechra
2012-01-26, 08:03 PM
This is awesome.

May I suggest some floating Aberrant feats, with the Aberrant Flesh ability allowing you to use your Class level as the number of Aberrant feats you have, and it gives you Aberrant Blood as a Bonus feat?

So if you were 2nd level, and had a single Aberrant feat, you would be treated as if you 2, but if you had 3 Aberrant feats, you would take the better number.

And if you took 20 levels in this class, that's an effective 20 Aberrant feats.

With some of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155474) feats, you can do nifty stuff like gain a flight speed, burrow speed, whip up some weak Initiating or Psionics, all that fun stuff.

I would only add that to give it some out-of-combat utility, beyond what they can get through crafting, and because it adds to the theme.

Ziegander
2012-01-26, 08:07 PM
Finally, the featureless chassis. d8 HP, medium BAB, two good saves, and six skill points per level. This sounds like you're handing out candy because none of these matter in a world of "a wizard did it". That's fine if all games are high op games. Anything shy of that, the power floor is too high for me to be comfortable with these bennies just because.

I understand your complaints about a lot of his specific class features. They're more powerful than you're comfortable with. But, the above quote... really? The basic chassis of d8 HD, medium BAB, two good saves, and six skill points per level is too powerful for you? That's... that's just silly. That way lies, "Monks are overpowered."

Circle of Life
2012-01-26, 08:13 PM
Reforge Self and Refocus Arcana seem really powerful. The first just by itself, with the ability to pool all one's points into one area of expertise. (I see Int shifting being very popular right before leveling, to go along with the already unnecessarily high skill points/level.) The second, in conjunction with all the Artificerish abilities, means doubling every roll you make. This quickly makes failure vanishingly remote.

Reforge Self updated to make the usage clearer.

Refocus Arcana is weaker in almost every imaginable situation than the Warlock's Deceive Item, with the notable exception of a Reforger attempting to create a very high difficulty item. Stronger... I don't really think so. Different? Yes.


Scaling Save-or-X with no daily limit worries me. Even casters can't slam enemies with full-save attacks round after round. Especially when it comes down to Save-or-Suck combined with powerful natural attacks; Cha-shift your character most of the time (Force of Personality removes the one real drawback this would have had), target the enemy's strongest stats, and watch them take a huge power hit.

The Warping Strike applies only to the first successful hit, and Reforge Foe is once per day per foe. Cha-shifting potentially addressed above.


Otherwise, I see it being popular to let everybody have just the right enchants without any real loss of wealth. Not to mention the things doable with scrolls. And, depending on one's reading, wands.

Shifting the party's weapon enchants was the idea behind the feature, yes. If you paid for a scroll, and you shift it to another scroll of the same value, is that a bad thing?

Wands with less than full charges have specific prices, outlined in multiple places (DMG, item creation guidelines, MIC), so you can't transmute a 1-charge wand into a 50-charge wand.


Finally, the featureless chassis. d8 HP, medium BAB, two good saves, and six skill points per level. This sounds like you're handing out candy because none of these matter in a world of "a wizard did it". That's fine if all games are high op games. Anything shy of that, the power floor is too high for me to be comfortable with these bennies just because.

If you think medium BAB and d8 HD is a powerful chassis, I don't know if there's anything I can say to that. The 6+ skillpoints is due to the class having no Int-synergy at all. As to claiming my design philosophy is "a Wizard did it", well now we're just one step shy of invectives and I don't see any rationale behind the vitriol.

Shadow Lord
2012-01-26, 08:25 PM
This is awesome.

May I suggest some floating Aberrant feats, with the Aberrant Flesh ability allowing you to use your Class level as the number of Aberrant feats you have, and it gives you Aberrant Blood as a Bonus feat?

So if you were 2nd level, and had a single Aberrant feat, you would be treated as if you 2, but if you had 3 Aberrant feats, you would take the better number.

And if you took 20 levels in this class, that's an effective 20 Aberrant feats.

With some of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155474) feats, you can do nifty stuff like gain a flight speed, burrow speed, whip up some weak Initiating or Psionics, all that fun stuff.

I would only add that to give it some out-of-combat utility, beyond what they can get through crafting, and because it adds to the theme.

I second this suggestion. It would give a bunch of real neat stuff. Perhaps a floating, choseable-at-the-begging-of-the-day Aberrant Feat per 4 Levels? Maybe less. I'm not the best person at balance.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-26, 08:38 PM
May I suggest some floating Aberrant feats, with the Aberrant Flesh ability allowing you to use your Class level as the number of Aberrant feats you have, and it gives you Aberrant Blood as a Bonus feat?

So if you were 2nd level, and had a single Aberrant feat, you would be treated as if you 2, but if you had 3 Aberrant feats, you would take the better number.

And if you took 20 levels in this class, that's an effective 20 Aberrant feats.

This is actually an interesting idea. I second this.

Roxxy
2012-01-26, 08:49 PM
I like. Do you think it would fit balance wise in a Pathfinder game?

Circle of Life
2012-01-26, 08:51 PM
I like. Do you think it would fit balance wise in a Pathfinder game?

It really depends. Pathfinder didn't too too much to shore up the power differences that already existed in 3.5. Paladins and Monks are better, but they're not good. Wizards and Clerics are worse, but they're still great. If your party likes Monks and Fighters, then I think this would be too strong, just as a normal Artificer would.

Roxxy
2012-01-26, 08:56 PM
It really depends. Pathfinder didn't too too much to shore up the power differences that already existed in 3.5. Paladins and Monks are better, but they're not good. Wizards and Clerics are worse, but they're still great. If your party likes Monks and Fighters, then I think this would be too strong, just as a normal Artificer would.Paladins not strong? We'll have to agree to disagree there.

We don't really use Monks, and I give Fighters 6 skill points per level and more class skills. Does that even things out?

Circle of Life
2012-01-26, 09:03 PM
We don't really use Monks, and I give Fighters 6 skill points per level and more class skills. Does that even things out?

It makes them better, and it puts the poor Monk out of its misery (Hungry Ghost archetype being the exception), but I don't know. If your group doesn't have a problem mixing spellcasters with martial classes, then it should be fine. A Reforger is less powerful than a spellcaster, but likely stronger than most martial classes due to its versatility. That's not a bad thing, just something you should be expecting. Every group is different, and the level of appropriateness of this class is hugely dependent on how much or how little your group optimizes, just as an Artificer would be.

Reluctance
2012-01-26, 09:17 PM
Refocus Arcana is weaker in almost every imaginable situation than the Warlock's Deceive Item, with the notable exception of a Reforger attempting to create a very high difficulty item. Stronger... I don't really think so. Different? Yes.

On a single roll, I'll grant that. When you're making lots of rolls, being able to keep taking 10 is far less effective. Artificers making higher level items know this, and regularly assume that multiple-day items can have a DC higher than what they'd get with take 10.


Shifting the party's weapon enchants was the idea behind the feature, yes. If you paid for a scroll, and you shift it to another scroll of the same value, is that a bad thing?

Wands with less than full charges have specific prices, outlined in multiple places (DMG, item creation guidelines, MIC), so you can't transmute a 1-charge wand into a 50-charge wand.

Partially charged wands into other partially charged wands was actually exactly what I was thinking.

The issue is that with one hour, a wand or scroll of any level N spell can be changed to cast any other level N spell. Being able to bring any spell effect in the game to bear on your problem is the defining feature of a well-played T1. And while the reforger may have a slightly lower power ceiling than the rest of the T1s, its power floor is much, much higher.


The Warping Strike applies only to the first successful hit, and Reforge Foe is once per day per foe. Cha-shifting potentially addressed above.

...

If you think medium BAB and d8 HD is a powerful chassis, I don't know if there's anything I can say to that. The 6+ skillpoints is due to the class having no Int-synergy at all. As to claiming my design philosophy is "a Wizard did it", well now we're just one step shy of invectives and I don't see any rationale behind the vitriol.

Wasn't invective. I was pointing out that, while high-op games care little about anything other than the spells/spell effects you have on you, these things matter more in low- to mid-op games. It felt to me like you were giving solid numbers because you expected the reforger to see only high-op play.

BTW. The reforger doesn't really have much of any stat synergy. Cha powers UMD, but as artificer fans know, the two or three points between an excellent score and a passing one can be easily made up elsewhere. It also powers Warping Strike (gained at 8) and Reforge Foe (gained at 17), but level 12 makes your base Cha score irrelevant. Four levels isn't nothing. But when it only boosts one ability, the temptation is still to focus on skill points/will save and swap the stats around when the better powers come on line.

Amechra
2012-01-26, 09:29 PM
I would like you to take a look at the Monk; this class has 2 more skill points a level, compared to Mr. Monk.

And monks aren't that good at what they do.

Reluctance
2012-01-26, 10:10 PM
The monk also has crap class features. If you want to see what a good base does when combined with good class features, look at the Cleric and Druid.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-26, 10:32 PM
I'm honestly not seeing this as broken. Powerful, yes, but not broken. It's solidly tier 2 due to flexibility, which is impressive since it doesn't actually get casting. Since you can only actually change the wand or scroll once, that means you'd have to keep a goodly stock of them to be flexible, which burns WBL pretty fast. Yes, you get them discounted to create with the class, but burning wealth for most your flexibility limits him pretty hard.

RaggedAngel
2012-01-26, 10:43 PM
This class is Tier 1.

With that out of the way, let's talk about why. The Reforger is potentially a better crafter than the Artificer; in fact, I'm not afraid to say that, other than at level 1, a Reforger is almost strictly better than an Artificer at crafting.

"But Ragged," you might say, "that makes no sense. An Artificer gets all the crafting feats as bonus feats, and the Reforger gets no such thing!"

"Ah," I would reply, "but the Reforger has a hidden clause in its Item Creation ability that gives it a floating bonus feat for crafting. It should, by the way, be a seperate "Bonus Feat" ability, since it's really hard to spot amid the otherwise-like-the-Artificer ability text. That means that every day you pick what you want to make, and since crafting is done by the day anyway you have no downside. That means you get every crafting feat, just less obviously."

In addition to the problem outlined above, the Reforger has an awesome chassis; 3/4th's BAB, two good saves, and an astounding d8; this crafting class has as much moxie as a Totemist, Ranger, or Swordsage, though admittedly less reason to boost Con. 6 skill/level is also a ton; the Artificer only gets 4/level, and they can't switch their best mental stat to Int before they level up. The Artificer is also frequently called to put points into Search and Disable Device, which the Reforger is not.

The Reforger really pushes past the Artificer with it's third level ability, Refocus Arcana. This ability is incredible; it's arguably *better* than the ability to just take 10 on UMD, which the Arty doesn't get until level 13. This means that you're almost never going to fail at crafting, wand usage, scroll usage, etc; it just comes at too low a level.

Reforge item, while a central ability of the class, is also astoundingly strong/versatile, especially with scrolls and wands. It gives you utter fluidity with your item base, especially since most items do follow a set pattern; look at the number of good things that cost 16,000gp, for example.

Instant Forging is the first ability that I don't really like at any level. If you're using custom crafting rules it means that you get a "swift action to make a silver bullet" ability, and that straight up outclasses a well-made Wizard of equal level. What's more? You get to keep the item afterwards. The ability needs to, at the very least, specify that you have to pay the xp and material costs. That said, I just don't think it's possible, speaking from a fluff position, to make a lasting magic item in a single second.

There's more, but I want to see what everyone else has been saying. :smallwink:

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-26, 11:13 PM
Instant Forging does require you to spend the cash/EXP to make the item. Reread the description, it says "as by her Item Creation ability." Her Item Creation ability only qualifies her as having spells she does not have, and makes you pay for the item as normal. Since it makes you pay for the item, it should be permanent. It's also once per week, which makes it a reserve trick you had better not waste on mooks. Since it's only once a week and costs WBL, he's not going to be whipping scrolls or wands out on the fly all day long.

I do admit, however, that the ability needs some sort of penalty for failure, or some sort of downside. It's an emergency @$$-pull, those should always be make-or-break.

Circle of Life
2012-01-27, 05:34 AM
In addition to the problem outlined above, the Reforger has an awesome chassis; 3/4th's BAB, two good saves, and an astounding d8;

That's not awesome, that's mediocre. It is, in every regard, a middle-of-the-road chassis. Average. Why are people claiming a worse-than-Monk skeleton is something you'd want to play the class to get?


this crafting class has as much moxie as a Totemist, Ranger, or Swordsage, though admittedly less reason to boost Con. 6 skill/level is also a ton; the Artificer only gets 4/level, and they can't switch their best mental stat to Int before they level up. The Artificer is also frequently called to put points into Search and Disable Device, which the Reforger is not.

The Artificer also needs to raise Int, which the Reforger doesn't. You also can't get bonus skillpoints by using Reforge Self to boost your Int - that's specifically called out as not working in the ability.


The Reforger really pushes past the Artificer with it's third level ability, Refocus Arcana. This ability is incredible; it's arguably *better* than the ability to just take 10 on UMD, which the Arty doesn't get until level 13. This means that you're almost never going to fail at crafting, wand usage, scroll usage, etc; it just comes at too low a level.

Updated to only apply to activating magic items, not crafting.


Reforge item, while a central ability of the class, is also astoundingly strong/versatile, especially with scrolls and wands. It gives you utter fluidity with your item base, especially since most items do follow a set pattern; look at the number of good things that cost 16,000gp, for example.

And yet, when you Reforge a 16,000 gp item, you still only have one of them. Yes, you can change which one you have with enough time, but it never gives you more.


Instant Forging is the first ability that I don't really like at any level. If you're using custom crafting rules it means that you get a "swift action to make a silver bullet" ability, and that straight up outclasses a well-made Wizard of equal level. What's more? You get to keep the item afterwards. The ability needs to, at the very least, specify that you have to pay the xp and material costs. That said, I just don't think it's possible, speaking from a fluff position, to make a lasting magic item in a single second.

"As if by her Item Creation ability". Item Creation specifies that it costs xp and gold.

Also, you can't make stuff from magic with a snap of your fingers? Wizards can. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) Or if they want to pay XP, do anything they want. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)


I do admit, however, that the ability needs some sort of penalty for failure, or some sort of downside. It's an emergency @$$-pull, those should always be make-or-break.

It has a penalty for failure: losing a considerable amount of wealth and xp/craft reserve, to make a single batch of UMD checks with no possibility of using Refocus Arcana. If a Reforger invested sufficient feat/wealth resources into being able to make a UMD check to create an item on a 1, then they deserve a 1/week "ohshi-" button.

Also, you're limited to creating the type of item that you have the item creation feat for, of which you only have one at a time barring a weird multiclass/gestalt item creation mashup.

Yitzi
2012-01-27, 07:27 AM
Looks like a very interesting class.
A case in which Reforge Item can be undone: If the new item has exactly the same price as the old one, another use of Reforge Item can reverse the first one.

gkathellar
2012-01-27, 12:27 PM
Well, the aberration mini-artificer gets a full read-through almost by definition.


Class Skills
The Reforger's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken separately) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha)
Skills Points at Each Level: 6 + Int

I'm going to go against the crowd and say I have no complaints regarding this. Characters should get plenty of skill points in general, it makes them feel more interesting.

Likewise, the chassis looks fine. It's not as if it matters all that much for most upper-tier classes, anyway.


Abberant Flesh (Ex): Whether by dint of ancient bloodlines or the result of magical experiments, all Reforgers possess mutable flesh capable of warping and shifting in response to their need. Reforgers possess the Augmented Aberration subtype, though this does not change the features or traits of their normal type. In addition, a Reforger gains a +1 class bonus to her natural armor.

Morphic Form (Ex): As a standard action, a Reforger can reshape a portion of her body to grant herself a single natural attack that she does not already possess. This natural attack deals 1d6 damage at 1st level, and an additional 1d6 damage at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter. The natural attack granted by this ability is always the primary natural weapon of the Reforger, and so adds her full Strength modifier to damage (or 1 ½ her Strength if it is her sole natural attack). The Reforger can retract a natural weapon created in this way (and recreate a new one, if desired) with a standard action.

Is there a hard-and-fast limit on how many natural weapons you can create at a time? Can you have one of everything? Because that could amount to a lot of natural weapons, too many for the earlier levels.

I'm worried about the first level, too. At 1st, all you've got is +1 AC and some natural weapons. It's either overpowered or underpowered, but mechanically it doesn't play a a Reforger yet, just as some guy who hits things and is hard to hit.


At 5th level, a Reforger gains the ability to shift a single bodily defense afforded to her, whether a natural defense or one granted by a magic item or spell. As a standard action, the Reforger may change a source of damage reduction or energy resistance (or immunity) to a new type. Damage reduction can only be changed between like sources (weapon types or substance types), while energy resistances or immunities can be changed freely between acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. For example, a Reforger could change DR/slashing to DR/piercing or DR/bludgeoning, but not DR/adamantine, and she could change DR/silver to DR/cold iron or DR/adamantine, but not DR/slashing. This change persists for as long as the granted defense would normally last, until its source has been removed, or until the Reforger returns the defense to its original type as a free action.

This is pretty cool, I must say. I'd rule out the free action return, and just say the change is permanent until you use the ability again to shift it to a different type.


Craft Reserve: Beginning at 2nd level, a Reforger recieves a pool of points that she can spend instead of experience points when crafting items. Each time the Reforger gains a new level, she receives a new craft reserve; leftover points from the previous level do not carry over. If the points are not spent, they are lost. A Reforger can also use her craft reserve to supplement the experience cost of the item she is making, taking a portion of the cost from her craft reserve and a portion from her own XP.

Artificer ability. Got it. Typo in bold.


Item Creation (Su):

Okay.


Refocus Arcana (Ex):

Failure chances on using your abilities are lame, I agree.


Reforge Item (Ex):

Holy crap this breaks games without magic marts. Of course, assuming magic marts exist, what this really does is potentially increase WBL by saving you the cost of selling off items. Which is ... still pretty powerful, actually. And it can introduce wizard-levels of versatility to an artificer class if you have time to stop for an hour. Yeah, this just qualified as Tier 1.


Once transmuted, the reforged item is forevermore treated as the new item, and cannot be returned to its original form by any means short of a wish spell or deific intervention.

This rules out a Reforger returning it to its original form by using Reforge item a second time. You should probably allow for that.


Warping Strike (Su):

Good call on never reducing scores below 1. You might also want to prevent it from stacking with effects that do.


Mirrored Mutations (Ex):

Wow. That is powerful, and allows you to qualify for Rapidstrike.


Instant Forging (Ex):

...

We need a jaw-drop smiley, because mine just hit the floor.


Reforge Self (Ex):

My face has literally started twitching. Genuine, involuntary twitching. It's not nearly as powerful as Instant Forging, but it's still crazy good.


Reforge Weakness (Su):

Just icing on the cake at this point.


Reforge Foe (Su):

At this point a at-will Save-or-Suck is not impressive.


Infinite Evolution (Ex):

A fine capstone for a class which is already impossibly powerful. One issue:


The Reforger cannot change her type to Construct or Undead (unless she already possessed one of these types), though she may choose the Living Construct type.

Should probably read: "The Reforger cannot change her type to Undead unless she already possessed this type, and likewise unless she already counted as a Construct independent of this ability, must apply the Living Construct subtype if she changes her type to Construct." A little wordier, but more clear and more precise.

Final evaluation: this is a Tier 1. A strong Tier 1 by my gauge, with the potential to be stronger than the artificer — when played intelligently it's going to be on the level of the StP Erudite or an optimized wizard or pseudo-wizard. It's elegantly done and it has a cool set of abilities, and I don't want you to change anything because of that: but if you don't intend it to be Tier 1 it's going to need a serious tune-down.

Circle of Life
2012-01-27, 12:37 PM
Is there a hard-and-fast limit on how many natural weapons you can create at a time? Can you have one of everything? Because that could amount to a lot of natural weapons, too many for the earlier levels.

You can have one created by the ability at any time (barring Mirrored Mutation), and it can't be one you already possess.


Artificer ability. Got it. Typo in bold.

Noted.


Holy crap this breaks games without magic marts. Of course, assuming magic marts exist, what this really does is potentially increase WBL by saving you the cost of selling off items. Which is ... still pretty powerful, actually. And it can introduce wizard-levels of versatility to an artificer class if you have time to stop for an hour. Yeah, this just qualified as Tier 1.

It... really doesn't, unless you don't play by the guideline that granted treasure is counted fully against WBL. Normally, junking everything you don't want results in having roughly half-WBL, depending on what you decide to keep. So, no, it doesn't increase WBL, it avoids lowering it.


This rules out a Reforger returning it to its original form by using Reforge item a second time. You should probably allow for that.

Probably, yes.


Wow. That is powerful, and allows you to qualify for Rapidstrike.

Two natural weapons is no stronger than anything with two primary claw/talon/tentacle/whatever attacks.


...

We need a jaw-drop smiley, because mine just hit the floor.

Being able to burn through your resources rapidly 1/week is apparently a sticking point with people.


My face has literally started twitching. Genuine, involuntary twitching. It's not nearly as powerful as Instant Forging, but it's still crazy good.

Why, exactly, is switching one score with another crazy good? Maybe it's a difference in definition, but I consider things like Shivering Touch, or Twinned Split Ray Enervation, crazy good, not changing your Int and Wis scores around or whatever.

Edit: Base scores, I hasten to add. Base, and no more.


Final evaluation: this is a Tier 1. A strong Tier 1 by my gauge, with the potential to be stronger than the artificer — when played intelligently it's going to be on the level of the StP Erudite or an optimized wizard or pseudo-wizard. It's elegantly done and it has a cool set of abilities, and I don't want you to change anything because of that: but if you don't intend it to be Tier 1 it's going to need a serious tune-down.

I strongly disagree that anything that has to use wealth and hour+ downtimes to change its abilities is anything near a StP Erudite, or a Wizard from the deepest reaches of the DM's nightmares.

I would love for people taking issue with versatility to provide an indepth reason for versatility increasing power so drastically. You never have more, you just have different. Could the opposing view provide a clear reasoning why this skyrockets something to "lolno" status?

gkathellar
2012-01-27, 01:41 PM
You can have one created by the ability at any time (barring Mirrored Mutation), and it can't be one you already possess.

Then the language needs to indicate that more clearly, because "a single natural weapon that she does not already possess" only restricts you to one natural weapon of a given type — it places no restrictions on how many you can have total.


Two natural weapons is no stronger than anything with two primary claw/talon/tentacle/whatever attacks.

Two of every type is pretty good, though, further emphasizing the need for Mutable Form to be clarified.


Being able to burn through your resources rapidly 1/week is apparently a sticking point with people.

Being able to spontaneously create an item with exactly the spells you need for the situation is powerful.


Why, exactly, is switching one score with another crazy good? Maybe it's a difference in definition, but I consider things like Shivering Touch, or Twinned Split Ray Enervation, crazy good, not changing your Int and Wis scores around or whatever.

Again, it's a question of having what you need on-demand. Also, combining it with Polymorph could be ... impressive.


I would love for people taking issue with versatility to provide an indepth reason for versatility increasing power so drastically. You never have more, you just have different. Could the opposing view provide a clear reasoning why this skyrockets something to "lolno" status?

It's a question of always having what's right for the situation, the whole, "I've got a spell for that" doctrine. Because the Reforger can turn one item into another, and even produce an item on the fly when he desperately needs to, he needs fewer items in general to do what the Artificer's best at. He's got all the potential power of the Artificer, but has access to more of it in total.

Again, I don't think you should change it. It occupies its seat gracefully — it just so happens that its seat is right by the head of the table.

Circle of Life
2012-01-27, 02:17 PM
Morphic Form updated for clarity.

Reforge Item updated to only allow a single reforging of a given item per level.

InfiniteNothing
2012-01-27, 02:59 PM
gkathellar, you're forgetting that if 'the perfect item for the job' is of lesser value than the item it's being changed from, you've essentially lost value and restricted what you can change that item into later. The more you change a given item, the more value is potentially lost and the more restrictive the list of items you can change those items into later.

Does the reforger need less items in general than other classes? Potentially, yes, but at the cost of a decent item turnover rate.

Still, maybe a limited number of total reforge item uses per day would be good... hmm...

Binks
2012-01-27, 03:00 PM
Refocus Arcana is weaker in almost every imaginable situation than the Warlock's Deceive Item, with the notable exception of a Reforger attempting to create a very high difficulty item. Stronger... I don't really think so. Different? Yes.

Statistically speaking that's not true. Reroll take 2nd nets a higher average total than 10, around 13 in fact*. While you have higher variance, your average result is 3 points higher. Not a huge difference, but your odds of doing better than taking 10 aren't bad.

This class makes me think of Prototype a bit, I'm curious if you used that as an inspiration at all. The instant forged item and shifting defenses/ability scores could do a great job of imitating some of the powers from that game (Oh no, I need to lift something heavy! Take my great dex and move it to strength and Muscle Mass activated :P). Looks like fun, ignoring any balance concerns (and honestly when you're building a class like the Artificer, balance isn't much of a concern IMHO).

* Statistically you have a 1/20 chance of any d20 result, 1-20. If we assume you reroll anything that is a 10 or less (ie anything the warlock's deceive item couldn't make, this is pretty much the optimal case) you have 400 possible results (any result where the first die was >10 just set all the second die results to the first die result, any die with <=10 you have 20 new possibilities, 20*20), 10 of which are 1s (1,2,3 etc rerolls), 10 2's, 10 3's, etc until you get to 11 where you have 30/400 (20/400=1/20=odds of rolling an 11 the first time + 10 extra chances when the first roll is low), 12,13,etc have the same possibilities.

Thus your total probabilities are 1/40 for 1-10 and 3/40 for 11-20. Your average is therefore:
1/40*1+1/40*2+1/40*3+1/40*4+1/40*5+1/40*6+1/40*7+1/40*8+1/40*9+1/40*10+3/40*11+3/40*12+3/40*13+3/40*14+3/40*15+3/40*16+3/40*17+3/40*18+3/40*19+3/40*20 = 13

Circle of Life
2012-01-27, 03:35 PM
Statistically speaking that's not true. Reroll take 2nd nets a higher average total than 10, around 13 in fact*. While you have higher variance, your average result is 3 points higher. Not a huge difference, but your odds of doing better than taking 10 aren't bad.

[Much more statistical data than you could ever need]

See, I knew someone was going to come along and pick at that comment. I almost included a quantifier along the lines of "not strictly based on average results, but because Deceive Item is an assured result with no chance of failure, and doesn't consume actions, allowing you to use it when activating spell trigger and spell completion items of swift/immediate action spells".

Oh well. At least everyone who reads this thread is now that much more educated with regards to probability. :smallcool:

Reluctance
2012-01-27, 05:04 PM
You're seriously asking how the ability to turn whatever you have into whatever you need is crazy powerful. I don't even know where to begin to start.

If you're intent on this, chop the paragraph under Item Creation where you get to count as a caster two levels above you. That perk should be reserved for a dedicated crafter class. Craft Reserve and the ability to make any item you want is already powerful enough when you consider everything else here.

Because it'll be a PITA remembering which items have and which items haven't been hit by Reforge Item, I'd make it a simple upfront cost. Pulling numbers out of my portable hole, I'd say 10 XP to effect the change. I'd even allow the finished item to be pricier than the original, at the cost of 1 extra XP per 10 gold. (There'll be times when a scroll will have a cheap-but-not-free material component cost, or when you want to turn one base weapon into a slightly pricier weapon. Having to lose a whole level of enchant because you found a longsword but want a greatsword doesn't balance the game so much as it frustrates the player. Unfortunately, there's no elegant way I can think of to limit the adjustment to just those cases.) These costs can be covered by Craft Reserve.

I'm still seeing ways this could break the game with the right op tricks, but at least a bit of tamping down the "anything becomes anything else" seats it closer to the middle of T1.

Edit: Holy crap, I take that back. It just struck me what happens when you switch around between item types. You lose over 200 gold in the process, but a suit of +2 armor can become a scroll of a 9th level spell. The former can be crafted at level 6.

Circle of Life
2012-01-27, 05:12 PM
You're seriously asking how the ability to turn whatever you have into whatever you need is crazy powerful.

That's not what I asked, actually, and glosses over most of the nuances of the abilities. So, no.


[Suggestions on removal and reduction of class abilities]

Objections noted. Not planned to happen barring a total rewrite, but noted all the same.

Ziegander
2012-01-27, 06:30 PM
If you're intent on this, chop the paragraph under Item Creation where you get to count as a caster two levels above you. That perk should be reserved for a dedicated crafter class. Craft Reserve and the ability to make any item you want is already powerful enough when you consider everything else here.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. That part just makes Artificers even more broken, and it's just completely unnecessary. I say cut it.


Because it'll be a PITA remembering which items have and which items haven't been hit by Reforge Item, I'd make it a simple upfront cost. Pulling numbers out of my portable hole, I'd say 10 XP to effect the change. I'd even allow the finished item to be pricier than the original, at the cost of 1 extra XP per 10 gold. (There'll be times when a scroll will have a cheap-but-not-free material component cost, or when you want to turn one base weapon into a slightly pricier weapon. Having to lose a whole level of enchant because you found a longsword but want a greatsword doesn't balance the game so much as it frustrates the player. Unfortunately, there's no elegant way I can think of to limit the adjustment to just those cases.) These costs can be covered by Craft Reserve.

Actually, I agree with the sentiments expressed here too, if not with the exact implementation. The, "this item can never be altered again" limitation is artificial and odd, and finding a way to restrict Reforge Item in a different way while allowing the Reforger the versatility of changing items as needed would work best, and allowing Craft Reserve to be spent to make up the difference in values when Reforging an item is a good idea. Just work on it.

Since item creators can only craft one item a day, it stands to reason to me that a Reforger should only be able to Reforge one item a day. Make sense?


Edit: Holy crap, I take that back. It just struck me what happens when you switch around between item types. You lose over 200 gold in the process, but a suit of +2 armor can become a scroll of a 9th level spell. The former can be crafted at level 6.

Yeah. That's the biggest craziness about the ability, but still, if only one item can be reforged per day, then it curbs the problem. Actually, does the 1/week "swift action craft" ability count as the one item crafting per day? Because if it doesn't, then it definitely should. That leaves it well-balanced in my opinion.

Circle of Life
2012-01-27, 07:04 PM
Actually, does the 1/week "swift action craft" ability count as the one item crafting per day? Because if it doesn't, then it definitely should. That leaves it well-balanced in my opinion.

It does. Nothing in the ability (Instant Forging or Item Creation) specifies otherwise.

Amechra
2012-01-27, 09:24 PM
May I suggest one note added to the Reforge Item ability?

Make it so you can't convert something into something you couldn't craft yourself; this prevents a lot of sillyness.

Circle of Life
2012-01-28, 05:34 AM
May I suggest one note added to the Reforge Item ability?

Make it so you can't convert something into something you couldn't craft yourself; this prevents a lot of sillyness.

I thought that was inferred by referencing the Item Creation ability again, but an additional line has been added to Reforge Item to clarify.

Yitzi
2012-01-28, 06:52 PM
I'd say the best approach to redoing Reforge Item is to say that the new form has to be strictly lower-cost than the old one (i.e. not equal). Then there's a built-in cost to using it, so it can't be used indefinitely.