Low - but not no - magic 4e question

[kyoryu]

Hi, all.

So I'm thinking about starting up a game with my meta-gaming-group which would probably best be described as "4e with a 1e feel".

There's two things that I have as goals with this game.

1) Generally low magic, get rid of the "magic item treadmill" effect.
2) Equipment is fungible - you may lose it if it makes sense as a consequence of the game.

So, basically I'm looking at using inherent bonuses (seems obvious, right?) But I do want to have magic items in the game, still.

What I'm basically thinking about is:

1) "+" items are master-crafted, or made from superior materials. A "+2 sword" might actually be made from "black iron" or something similar.
2) Actual magic effects are "real" magic items.

Even then I'm not totally sure on how to balance this. At higher levels, a +5 sword on top of inherent bonuses seems a bit broken. Similarly, given that magic items scale with level, should I just assign a random "level" to them on creation, and ignore the bonus if I so choose?

Just want to make sure I don't paint myself too much into the corner.

[Dimers]

At higher levels, a +5 sword on top of inherent bonuses seems a bit broken. Similarly, given that magic items scale with level, should I just assign a random "level" to them on creation, and ignore the bonus if I so choose?

Well, if +inherent+5 seems like too much, have the sword's bonus be +1 or +2. It's a significant improvement for the user (5% or 10% better chance to hit and a little more damage) without being overpowering. So yeah, I think just giving a DM-determined "level" in terms of plusses works just fine.

As I understand things, the lure of magic items when you have inherent bonuses is the special stuff they can do, not the flat bonuses. To keep things interesting, you might have one magic item give a larger flat bonus but have no special effect, while others with cool properties or versatile powers get +1 or no plus at all.

[DeltaEmil]

One source that you might be interested into is Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium. Also, I'd advise to get rid of the enhancement bonus numbers on magic items and not even bring them up (no sword +5 on any level). Give them stuff like the legendary weapons Frostbrand and Flame Tongue, but don't make it into Flame Tongue+5 or Frostbrand +3 (even if those weapons were forged from the purest black iron of the black iron planet).

People are already happy with the effects (not with the fact that you simply hit better and harder, which is extremely dull and a pure D&D-ism), and since you're already using the inherent bonus rules (which give you enhancement bonus at specific levels), you don't have to think about what kind of plus the item should give.

[kyoryu]

Mods: Sorry for the double post - merge, please?

[kyoryu]

Mods: Sorry for the double post - merge, please?

[kyoryu]

One source that you might be interested into is Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium. Also, I'd advise to get rid of the enhancement bonus numbers on magic items and not even bring them up (no sword +5 on any level). Give them stuff like the legendary weapons Frostbrand and Flame Tongue, but don't make it into Flame Tongue+5 or Frostbrand +3 (even if those weapons were forged from the purest black iron of the black iron planet).

People are already happy with the effects (not with the fact that you simply hit better and harder, which is extremely dull and a pure D&D-ism), and since you're already using the inherent bonus rules (which give you enhancement bonus at specific levels), you don't have to think about what kind of plus the item should give.

Well I like the *idea* of weapons that are just "better", even without magic bonuses. There's a reason that some guitars cost thousands of dollars, and some cost $100.

I'm thinking about letting those two vary independently at this point. So the magic effect and scale would be determined, as would the "mechanical" bonus. Anything that actually had both would be exceedingly rare.

And they probably wouldn't be described in those terms anyway, but at some point I have to let the players know the mechanics :D

[Akodo Makama]

So, basically I'm looking at using inherent bonuses (seems obvious, right?) But I do want to have magic items in the game, still.

What I'm basically thinking about is:

1) "+" items are master-crafted, or made from superior materials. A "+2 sword" might actually be made from "black iron" or something similar.
2) Actual magic effects are "real" magic items.

Even then I'm not totally sure on how to balance this. At higher levels, a +5 sword on top of inherent bonuses seems a bit broken. Similarly, given that magic items scale with level, should I just assign a random "level" to them on creation, and ignore the bonus if I so choose?


With inherent bonuses, you can simply ignore the enchantment bonuses on weapons, but still use the abilities, so items still have a lot of power. You could also use the bonus from the weapon instead of the inherent bonus (if it's larger), so a simple +3 sword is super cool for a level 1 adventurer, but no longer as cool for the level 23 demigod. Sort of a "You're already capable of making better use of the sword then the magic built into it can". But, A +1 "flaming fire sword of fire" is still pretty cool for both (even if the to-hit bonus doesn't get used), because, well:

IT'S A SWORD MADE OF FIRE!

[Bearpunch]

Alternatively, you could use the non-magic item scale, so PCs don't fall behind.

As for making PC's too powerful, that generally isn't a problem, unless you provide out there magic items (rod of wishes or somesuch) that could break the game. A +5 Longsword is not going to break the game by any means at higher levels.

At lower levels on the other hand...

[Kurald Galain]

A simple solution is to use both item bonuses and inherent bonuses, and rule that they don't stack. So getting a +2 sword is very powerful at first, but by the time you hit paragon level its plus not relevant any more (although its power still is, and I'm guessing that you will want to use items with cool and flashy powers).

[kyoryu]

A simple solution is to use both item bonuses and inherent bonuses, and rule that they don't stack. So getting a +2 sword is very powerful at first, but by the time you hit paragon level its plus not relevant any more (although its power still is, and I'm guessing that you will want to use items with cool and flashy powers).

That's probably what I'll end up with, though I prefer the idea that a skilled swordsman still wants a good sword, not just a cheap piece of garbage.

Still, in terms of actual play, it seems the easiest to implement. And I think it's actually RAW, since both are of type "enhancement."

[huttj509]

That's probably what I'll end up with, though I prefer the idea that a skilled swordsman still wants a good sword, not just a cheap piece of garbage.

Still, in terms of actual play, it seems the easiest to implement. And I think it's actually RAW, since both are of type "enhancement."

Indeed. At least for 3.5 (haven't seen the explicit rules for 4e) that was the idea.

If you have a +2 inherent enhancement bonus, it does not stack with a +1 weapon. You take whichever's better.

+2 bonus and +1 weapon? You get the +2 to hit.
+2 bonus and +1 weapon of do something flashy on a crit? You get the +2 to hit (from inherent), AND do the something flashy on a crit (from the weapon).

This allows items better than inherent to still have the effect, and also relegates items to primarily their flashy things, rather than the straight math bonuses, so losing that sword doesn't mean you can't hit, it just won't burst into flames.

Also allows for the narrative "death wielding a table leg." Cause if you're that awesome, the barfight should quake in fear even if the tankard itself isn't +2.

[Mando Knight]

The inherent bonus system technically grants the same type of bonus as a magic item, an enhancement bonus. Thus, they shouldn't stack, so you're really using the item for its properties rather than its actual enhancement bonus.

[androkguz]

First of all, kudos and good luck in your campaing


Even then I'm not totally sure on how to balance this.
Don't.
Seriously, it really can't go wrong too much here. 4e's math is strong, having a little imbalance would hardly be noticed.

But PCs will really love if the magic items they find make them really hardcore. Even putting a +5 vorpal sword on the hands of a low level char won't be game breaking: you will still be able to challenge him by giving him enemies about 2 lvls higher. His AC is still lower, his saves are still low and he still can't attack enemies out of range (of course, this would all fall apart if you give them many tought magic items).

I would recomend your campaing contains one rare and cool (with many abilities) item for each player. Maybe they get them, maybe they don't, but you let them know they exist.
Also, don't forget...

The inherent bonus system technically grants the same type of bonus as a magic item, an enhancement bonus. Thus, they shouldn't stack, so you're really using the item for its properties rather than its actual enhancement bonus.

And finnally, noncombat magic items have esentially arbitrary levels, so you could give as many or as few as you see fit.

[1of3]

We do the following: Most items are only crafted at their minimum level. If a character has five levels more, the item works as if it were one degree higher. So a flaming sword would usually still be a level 4 item with +1. A 9th level character can treat it as +2. A 14th level character gets +3.

So characters still want a magic item, but they do not need better items during their career. The items grow with them.

It also allows to sometimes put in an item with a higher bonus. Those are quite rare because they are quite expansive, but sometimes there are swords in stones.

[PhallicWarrior]

Can I piggyback on this discussion? You guys mention the Inherent Bonus rules. What book are they from, or are they a houserule?

[huttj509]

Can I piggyback on this discussion? You guys mention the Inherent Bonus rules. What book are they from, or are they a houserule?

I want to say DMG...think that's where it was referenced when I read through Dark Sun (which is a system that benefits VERY well from that optional rule, since it lets you scrounge for whatever stuff you can find, but not be completely outclassed in the numbers game).

[DeltaEmil]

Inherent bonus rules are depicted in the Dungeon Master's Guide 2, page 138.

[MeeposFire]

Inherent bonus rules are depicted in the Dungeon Master's Guide 2, page 138.

And later found in the dark sun campaign setting. Not sure if there were any differences.

[Yakk]

This might be more than you want, but here is a 4e variant that makes magic items optional.

Attack Bonus: Your base attack bonus equals your level plus 3.

You use this for all attacks you are proficient in. On top of this, you can gain proficiency, feat, and untyped bonuses. If you are using a magic item from your tier, you gain a +1 bonus to your attack rolls (but only a +1 bonus).

AC: Your AC in armor equals your level plus the armor bonus of the armor plus 10. You can gain a feat bonus on top of this, and if your armor is magical it can grant another +1 AC.

A bunch of classes get an additional AC bonus when in light or no armor. Basically all of the light armor classes: +4 AC in light armor your class is proficient in (and in no armor) if your classes primary/only attack stat is dex/int, and +3 otherwise. Some builds will also get such a bonus (tempest fighter, for example). Ideally, name this feature (most classes already have a name for it -- attach it as a rider).

Ie, give Rogues Lucky Dodge: +4 AC when in leather or no armor. Wizards get Mage Armor (+4 AC when in no armor). Swordmage warding is increased to +5 AC, or +7 AC with a hand free. Avenger Armor of Faith is boosted to +6 AC.

Reflex, Fortitude, Will: Your base Reflex/Fort/Will is equal to the higher of your two attributes that correspond to the defence (not the bonus). Add half your level, plus the attribute modifier of your lower attribute corresponding to your defence. On top of this you can gain feat bonuses, a +1 bonus from having a tier-appropriate magic necklace, a +1 bonus to reflex from having magic boots, a +1 bonus to will from having a magic hat, and a +1 bonus to fortitude from having a magic belt.

As an example, a level 5 Half-Orc Fighter wearing Scale wielding a heroic magic Greataxe.

Str: 19
Con: 14
Dex: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 10
Feats: Axe expertise, Superior Reflexes, Superior fortitude

Attack bonus:
+3 (base)+5(level)+1 (magic)+2 (proficiency)+1 (feat)+1 class = +13 vs AC

AC: 10 + 7 (scale) +5 = 22 AC
Fort: 19 (str)+2 (half level)+2 (con bonus)+2 (sup fort)+2 (class) = 27 Fort
Reflex: 16 (dex)+2(half level)-1 (int penalty)+2 (sup reflex) = 19 Reflex
Will: 12 (Wis)+2 (half level)+0 (cha bonus)= 14 Will

This character has through the roof fortitude -- basically an auto-miss if you target it. But he's a hulking beast.

At level 30, decked out like a christmas tree, with +4 feat bonus to all non-AC defences, Plate armor, +1 feat bonus to AC, and a +3 feat bonus to attacks:

Str: 26
Con: 16
Dex: 24
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 12

Attack: +3 (base)+30(level)+1 (magic)+2 (proficiency)+3(expertise)+1 (class) = +40 Attack

AC: 10 (base)+30(level)+8(Plate)+1 (feat)+1 (magic)=50 AC
Fort: 26 (strength)+3 (con)+15 (half level)+4 (feat)+2 (magic)+2 (class)=52 Fort
Reflex: 24 (dex)+0 (int)+15 (half level)+4 (feat)+2 (magic)=45 Reflex
Will: 16 (Wis)+1 (cha)+15 (half level)+4 (feat)+2 (magic)=38 Will

You'll notice that attacks and defences are reasonably close to baseline 4e.

Bonuses to damage from magic weapons stay the same.

For magic armor, you can either just use the properties, or you could make them grant you temporary HP and/or resist all. Resist all 1/tier for heavy armor, a per-encounter usable AC bonus against opportunity attacks for light armor, 5 temporary HP/tier for armor in general (refreshes on a short rest)...